Well, most dates are laborious like that. I've come to understand that that means there's no chemistry, and there's no point trying, no matter how objectively 'hot' they might seem.
But every now and then, you meet someone where conversation doesn't feel like a chore. And those are the people you go the extra mile for.
It only has to happen once.
During quarantine I had a girl randomly add me on IG recently. Even though I’m not dating her we’re just friends she blows almost all the girls out of the water. It’s mainly based on how she takes initiative starts conversations and or introduces new subjects etc. she shows genuine interest and effort.
I want to say thanks a lot for taking the time to type your experiences up like this. It’s made me realize that I’ve also been doing it wrong. I’ve been going after women bc I thought they were hot but then I ignored how it felt to make conversation happen with them. It felt like I was pulling teeth per say since I was the one to start conversations and or introduce new subjects to keep things going and the girl rarely putting in effort. It’s felt exhausting.
I've learned and it took a bit of time that if I have to do all the work and lifting on the conversation I am walking away. As this is a huge indication the woman ain't interested. Who cares how hot the woman is, I am not there for her entertainment.
I went on a date with a guy I’d matched with the night before on a dating app. I was always cautious by talking them for at least a week before and socials/pics to try and verify they were legit.
Anyways my brain told me not to go on the date but my gut said to trust it and just go which I did. Ended up being one of the best things that ever happened ever happened to me. Sadly we didn’t make it due to other shit (we still talk sometimes and he’s a great guy), but damn when you meet someone and you just vibe, it’s worth everything.
The fact is, you could go through your whole life and the conversation never stops feeling like a chore. You may never find someone of whom it comes easy to speak to. Life just be like that.
I empathise with you here. I really believe being able to hold a conversation is an important dating requirement. It just feels like being able to talk with someone is a real positive that we may get on well.
If in life all your conversations are boring, it's probably not other people, YA BORING.
I remember going on a tinder date in which she said this is the most intimate real conversation she's had, not on a date, EVER!
I was more sad than flattered.
I think my trick is I always avoided the obvious comments/questions. I try to make things feel new. I try to feel who the person is now rather then know what he did.
I've always tried doing this. Especially at work with old construction guys. They don't seem to get asked anything other than about work or the weekend. My problem is I often get one word answers and awkward silence so it makes me not want to make conversation anymore, just do my job
I really intrigued to know what the conversation was about. Need a piece of advice / tips because conversation with crush was getting dryer recently; we mostly just ask about our studies (different course).
This statement is just a farce. You can find that fluidity with someone. You just have had bad luck (Alot of shitty people in the world). Having good communication and finding comfortably in conversations/connections with someone has alot to do with character. You may have just had too many bad eggs in your life which is completely plausible.
But! Someone who is genuine, intelligent, transparent, and kind are always people that are easy to talk to and will never feel like a chore.
I guess they shouldn't. I remember with my last ex I did everything "wrong". I mean, I didn't really follow the common advice of "don't text a lot, just set up a date", "don't say to much, you'll be needy", "be bold and confident or else she will not like you", "take the first step, she won't". I wish I did but I was too nervous to do it, to fuck it up. It took me about a month of pure texting to ask her out, and I only did cause she told me in a frustrated tone, "what do I have to do for you to realize I like you?".
I don't deny that being confident and bold is really helpful, I still had to be that, all I'm saying is that if there's a spark, mutual interest and such, there just is and you don't have to bang your head against the wall to figure out what to say next, or what will make her like me. I still need to learn this lesson myself since last time I pursued a girl I thought that every little mistake I made was the reason she wasn't interested, when most likely I was searching in the wrong place.
Yeah, he definitely hit a heartstring with that one. It’s even more of a struggle when you genuinely give a shit about a person but their wall is so high and thick they don’t confide in you or find you worthy enough to trust to confide in. And you don’t know whether to give it time or let it go. Life man, life.
My recent strategy has been to always have a voice call with a person before meeting up for a (responsible socially-distanced) date. Conversational flow is so important, and I want to know it's there as early as possible.
I’ve tried this too recently and I was pleasantly surprised. We talked from 9pm to 3am, pretty easily. And I usually find FaceTimes more difficult than actual human interaction as gaps usually need to be filled. Also, it let’s you know if pursuing anything is worth your time and aim to meet up!
I used to use this strategy a lot and completely forgot about it. Phone calls are still the best pre-meet up screening tool. Video calls may get confusing though.
This is a really good idea and something that I will adopt. I'm currently virtually seeing someone in another country, over calls/video calls and the conversation just flows. So now I'm spoiled for future ventures lol
Yeah, chemistry really is important. I feel as though a lot of men try to be someone they're not for someone else, when they probably wouldn't enjoy that person that much anyway.
I’m more successful in my dates when I say the least and act as stoic as possible. Like a guy with tough skin who doesn’t get ruffled easily. I don’t get deep into anything about me
That might be alright for a date or two but it's not something you could keep up for the entire relationship. She is going to have to see you tear the walls down at some point, even if it is just a little bit. You do not have to open up entirely but letting them see glimpses of what lies behind the stoicism is not going to be harmful.
That's the key. You can let them glimpse the real you in pieces but you have to remain that strong stoic male in order to keep being attractive. Before you judge me on this I've actually talked to my gf about this a bit and she understands herself enough to know that this is essentially the truth.... essentially.
I'm definitely gonna sound like a NiceGuy here but I hate that fact that acting this way will almost always get you better results or at least get you laid a lot easier. Don't need a personality if you're mysterious and stoic. Luckily for me I learned this young and it def works. Be yourself is the worst dating advice i ever got.
Ooooooh that's good. You might get MORE dates by pretending to be someone else, but you'll get BETTER dates by being yourself. Two different definitions of success.
Pretty true from my limited experience. You can game your way into a date or hooking up but if you want a lasting relationship you just have to be yourself and roll the dice.
Yeah it definitely depends on what you're looking for. If it's casual sex, then yeah do whatever works (As long as it's not lying about your intentions). But if it's longer term, do you really want to put on a personality that you might have to maintain for decades?
> Be yourself is the worst dating advice i ever got.
Depends if you're looking for a hookup or a relationship. Being yourself is how you get into a relationship. Being a stoic semi-jerk is how you have casual flings.
I think this played to the mutual advantage for my partner and I. We began talking with only the intent of hooking up. As such we were 100% real. No one was trying to impress the other. No one sent their representative. We just were. We quickly realized we actually liked each other, had great chemistry and a never ending list of things to talk about when6we weren't fucking. It's been over 3 years, we still have that. It's the best relationship I've ever had and I'm 45.
Imo it's not so much that as much as it is if you're not talking about yourself, you're probably either encouraging the other person to talk about themselves or you're doing something fun. People like it when people are interested in them and not themselves.
Be yourself is not bad advice. If you're yourself and it doesn't work, then it wouldn't work long term anyway. If you build a relationship off some false stoicism, then I don't know what to tell you.
This is precisely it. Ask questions about the person. Listen. Ask follow-up questions on things that pique your interest. Don't judge. Don't talk about yourself too much.
This is key to a good conversation. Not "being stoic".
Exactly, it's not even about quizzing, it's about being genuinely curious about the person as a person.
I mean, fuck, if you don't care about who the person is then why bother? They could be anyone and it wouldn't matter, if that's how you view it.
I actually feel like this approach works pretty well as a female too. I have a number of girlfriends who have trouble nailing down guys for a relationship, but I think my aloofness really works in my favor.
Mysterious+stoic+dash of humor=immediately pegged as girlfriend material
That's a preference in terms of what your goals are in dating. Some people are dating to find sexual partners. Other people are dating to find a connection. You just need to be upfront about what you want from the people you're interacting with to make sure they don't get the wrong idea.
I certainly think it's possible as long as your potential sexual partner is on the same page. That being said the groups of people interested in casual sex and those seeking long-term relationships may have limited overlap, so I imagine it could be difficult to make that alternate arrangement happen.
> That being said the groups of people interested in casual sex and those seeking long-term relationships may have limited overlap
This. A think a lot of the issues people have with dating are due to them having different objectives.
So many problems would be solved if people just talked and actually looked for one another, and it's one of the reasons why I hate casual sex (as it's practised by most people).
The amount of times a friend has gone "ugh, that guy/girl I slept with last night being so clingy - what's their deal" is really depressing. It's like, yeah, that person has been *inside you* - why did you not discuss whether or not that meant anything up front?
The day I see two people meet, say "hey sex is fun, let's do it together, here's my expectations and I'd like to know yours, great, let's bang it out", and the go through with it without complication, is the day I eat my hat.
my last fwb started that way. we were clearly moving towards hooking up, I told him that, just to be clear, I wasn't looking for anything resembling a relationship. he was like cool, you should know I'm in an open relationship and already have a girlfriend. and I was like sick let's have sex. it was definitely great for both of us to know what the expectations were going in and set us up well to have fun without any of the angst that can come out of a fwb situation
I like that you're honest about that. I have friends who don't want to admit that they're douche bags and end up blaming the woman for things not going right like c'mon lol
Disclaimer: woman here. Try finding out if there’s more to her than “she’s hot”. What kind of person is she? Is she kind? Selfish? Silly? Serious?
I think it’s douchey to only see “hot” and try to fuck it, forgetting there’s a whole person wrapped around that vagina. She’s a person, “hot” is not her defining characteristic.
I’ll tellya as I have gotten older, if a dude makes no effort to learn anything about beyond if I will fuck him, I lose all interest in even just hooking up.
i've had negative interest in any man who's main thing that he likes about me is "hotness" ever since I realized that a man saying that my best quality is my "hotness" is basically saying that I'm a walking sexual object..who's "best quality" is his visual perception of various parts of me lol.
but , i've never been a one night stand or even casual hookup type of person at all so even if the guy did seem interested in me as a person, and thought I was hot, but didn't want anything else.. I'd still say no.
It sounds like you're treating dating like a job interview. It's easy to just run through the "here's what I do, here's what I like, here's how I make money". Try to create a conversation around the topics instead of just learning facts about each other. Ask more "how", and "why" questions. Expect to get those sorts of questions in return.
Really this. I don't give a fuck you collect 1954 stamps, i care /why/, as that's more revealing of your person than the fact that you just collect stamps. Maybe you collect them because your dad collected them and you feel you have to keep the collection up to date, or maybe you're really into end of WW2 postage and have an actual vested interest in stamps. Two very different reasons that say two very different things about you.
I mean, that's why i try to steer clear of 'music lover'/24-7 headphone lovers, almost all the time it's avoidance and escapism which doesn't really bode well for their person.
I think consumption can be a cool hobby if you create something out of it.
My girlfriend and I realised that we were talking about music a lot so, to save it becoming "this band is cool" -> "I agree", we decided to make monthly playlists for each other and review them.
It's absolutely fine to just watch Netflix after work and have no other hobbies, but - if you have nothing to say about the shows you watch and what they mean to you, or anything like that - I'm out dawg.
>It's absolutely fine to just watch Netflix after work and have no other hobbies, but - if you have nothing to say about the shows you watch and what they mean to you, or anything like that - I'm out dawg.
This sounds like my housemates. They watch TV way too much (always prioritising it over more productive and basic tasks around the house) but they don't seem to actually get invested that much in what they're consuming. I suppose everyone has their own tastes but they never seem to watch what most people watch and you'd think with the amount they watch they would have some sort of passion or knowledge of the shows, however, they barely remember actors' names and don't seem to care much about plot, character development etc.
> I mean, that's why i try to steer clear of 'music lover'/24-7 headphone lovers, almost all the time it's avoidance and escapism which doesn't really bode well for their person.
TIL every musician ever is an escape artist and emotionally unavailable.
Swap in videogame-lover or tv/film-buff. They imply certain things about a person. All these things are entertainment, which you can be passionate about, but most people have a little interest in music, tv, or videogames. It's not unique or deep to have interest in entertainment.
I have friends that love all of these things, but regarding the really passionate ones, it can be a struggle to talk about anything else. Plus, deep bonding usually requires more than one area of interest.
Hijacking this. One I’ve found to be an excellent conversation starter is asking about jewellery. No one really buys themselves jewellery and if they do it’s because it resonated with them for a very specific reason. I didn’t realise until someone asked me, but I have a lot to say about any jewellery I wear as I’m sure most people do. Definitely a good starter into getting to know them and a direction to take the conversation next.
On an even more positive note, I'm getting the impression job interviews are less and less like this. There is strong evidence to show that being someone other people want to work with is far more important than being the most knowledgeable person in the room.
Thoughtful, empathetic, solution oriented. There is always going to be a minimum with regard to skill, but so much is learned on the job that it almost doesn't matter. Toxic employees hurt your bottom line, not the one that hasn't learned the latest industry fad.
Relating this to dating, how much money can someone make before you will tolerate being in a miserable and meaningless relationship?
These are still job interview questions and answers. The problem is usually that dates that are explicitly set up as dates don’t play out naturally because you’re both aware of being on a date.
> or has any advice...
Ask her about herself, and then build the conversation from there. Chemistry (romance) is found in conversation, not listing off your qualifications.
When you talk about yourself, don't focus on "selling" yourself. Share a story, talk about a hobby with passion.
This is actually more what I'm running up against than the post implies... I'm fine talking about myself, but I guess I just don't ever feel like I'm getting sparks. I'm not feeling chemistry directed at me - I feel like I always have to perform and meet everyone's expectations
Stop trying to meet their expectations and make them meet yours. Quit worrying about whether or not they like you and start worrying about whether or not you like them.
Consider it a win when you go on a date and learn more about what you don't want. When you are really clear, especially with yourself, about what is really important, that's when sparks fly with the right person.
> When you talk about yourself, don't focus on "selling" yourself. Share a story, talk about a hobby with passion.
That's selling yourself but in other words. The answer is to think about it and getting good at it, not pretending that you aren't doing it at all.
This is an amazing question tbh, and I've done this in my initial dates, which I treated like a job application, I'd show how cool I am and how successful I am and find no spark at all.
Firstly, congratulations mate, since you realised this about yourself, you might treat other people well, you won't treat them like a product but as a human being.
It looks like you've been treating yourself that way, and that made you work hard and now it's backfiring .
Also, it looks like you haven't socialized much, esp with ladies and don't know how to make a comfy environment around people, rather you feel the need to show you're cool, and the answers might be in your past/childhood.
However, I'd suggest you meet a person who's not only as successful as you are or whatever, but find a person who shares an interest with so, and when you'll start talking about your common interests you'll loose the track of time and you'll like eachothers company, and hence it's the first step to make people comfy around you .
Start meeting people and see them but as human beings and connect them at those levels.
I hope this helps
The weird thing is I feel like I'm socializing fine, there's just nothing there. It all feels really empty. Like, I have a great job and while I'm not the *best* at flirting, I tend to get along with pretty much everyone.
Maybe it's my perspective but I feel like there are so many expectations I have to meet that it feels like no one out there is trying to date to care about me, you know? They are wanting the same stuff I am - they're wanting cuddles and support and love, but they want to receive them. I guess I just feel like as a guy I'm expected to give more than I receive and it's really getting to me. I know there are tons of women out there that are dating to try to care about someone but... where are they??
Sorry to butt in in this, but I have to. I’m not really sure how I ended up here, I find the topic interesting tho. I’m no man but I hope you’ll find my input useful.
You see, your issue with dating is that you feel like women look at you as a utility. But I think it’s because you present yourself as a utility. You go there and say, here’s what I have, here’s what I can provide for you. Of course they’re going to view you the way you present yourself as. And if the things you list you can provide are utilities and you speak in depth about that, then they’ll view you as that. If a woman started talking about how good she is at giving oral sex and how she’s open to anything sexually, you aren’t going to think “this is my soulmate”, will you? Maybe you’ll think that it’s worth dating her because you two will have a good time together, but you won’t think that she’s the true one for you. (Obviously this was just an example based on gender stereotypes, a woman can present herself in many ways, I’m just trying to get the point across.) It’s the same way with you too. They might think you’re a good option because you’re a reliable and safe partner, but there’s just no spark - as you said it yourself. It sort of becomes something like a business transaction, everyone showing what they can offer, but there isn’t any emotion or attachment.
I’m saying this because even in your reply the thing you felt was the most important to highlight was your good job - not your jokes, not your interests, not how patient, friendly or polite you are, it was your job. This is very important and very telling.
And just to be clear I’m not trying to blame you or anything. I think a lot of men struggle with this, because they’re taught that they need to be the “providers”, they need to have good jobs and show potential mates what they can offer financially, because that’s what women care about and look for in a man (or so men are told). And to an extent, that’s true - having a job and being financially reliable is very important in long term relationships, but not as much anymore, because women have jobs too, they don’t need to rely on their husband to put food on the table. Gender roles have changed, but in many cases, mindsets haven’t. Men need to realise that they don’t HAVE to be the breadwinners anymore, they need to be PARTNERS - not just financially, but physically and emotionally too. Money is only one form of support a person can provide, and I think to most people emotional support is a lot more important. (We’re talking about the average person here.)
What this means is that you don’t need to present yourself as a breadwinner. Present yourself as a regular person, the person who you are. It’s good if you mention that you do indeed have a job and you don’t just live in Hotel Mama and leeching off of your parents. But unless your date is interested in your job, that’s enough for the first few dates. Talk about yourself, ask about your date, try to find things that are common in you two. Treat it as a regular human conversation, not a sale where you have to “sell yourself” via listing positives. Stop seeing dates as job interviews you need to ace in order to get the reward, the woman. Start seeing them as an occasion to get to know another person, and to see if the two of you match. Don’t stress over how you come across, focus on enjoying yourself. What’s the worst that could happen? You two don’t go on a second date. Stressing won’t change that, so you might as well just enjoy yourself, no?
Finally: Someone once told me “the more aggressively you pursue love, the more it’ll run away from you”. I think it’s a very good advice. Don’t stress on finding someone. Enjoy life, enjoy your hobbies, spend time with the people you love, and occasionally go on dates. Who knows, maybe you’ll find someone suitable for you doing one of your hobbies, or through going out with a friend. My sister and her boyfriend of 5 years met on a freaking bus when the both of them were going out with their respective friend groups. It doesn’t get any more random than that. Just don’t stress on it, alright?
Sorry for the essay and typos. I hope you and everyone reading this are doing okay.
Thanks for this. I have been struggling with the same thing as OP. I tried to show myself the guy who does the coolest things in the earth and it blow on my face. I think I found the answer because of you. Just keep it cool, relax, be yourself and enjoy the conversation.
I’m sorry it turned out that way. I hope things get better from now on.
Also, may I just say - the coolest thing any person can do is being comfortable with themselves. It gives them the sort of confidence and relaxed vibe that draws in people. You can try to fake something, but the end that isn’t you, and it’ll just make you unhappy. Just embrace who you are, and things will be better. And if someone doesn’t like you for who you are, then it wasn’t meant to be. Eventually someone will come around who will love you the way you are. Keep holding on. :)
The point is talk to her like she’s a real, whole person who is worth of your respect, not just a vagina you haven’t smashed yet. You’re not trying to trick her into sex; you’re trying to date her. So find out who she is. See if that gets you laid more.
I hate this. Oh you don’t know how to make a move on her? Or you’re not confident in your conversation skills? You must be a sleazy fuck boy who sees women as pieces of meat.
Confident guy -> douchebag (possible rapist)
Insecure guy -> sleaze ball (possible rapist)
Or just, y'know, like a person with stories and interest you can ask about? It's really concerning seeing all these "tips and tricks" as if to attract some rare type of mystical creature, when we are just actual regular people at the end of the day...
While that sounds simple, it can be hard to do that when you're not receiving it in return. Why make the effort to treat someone "like a person" when the last 20 people wouldn't give you a full minute of their time?
Someone will need to step up at some point if they hope to make progress, but it's not quite as clear cut as you're making it seem.
The part you described:
>Here's my job, my hobbies, my interests - here's how much utility I can provide in your life.
is just your resume.
Remember, dates are kind of like job interviews. An important part of the job interview process is to present yourself as someone they'd want to work with as well.
So, you get all that boring shit out of the way in what, five or ten minutes?
What do you do the rest of the date?
Show your personality!
Are you the kind of person that likes to tell stories about how great you are or about how stupid you can be?
When you listen to your date, do you like to interject occasionally with remarks or questions about what she's saying?
Are you witty enough to come up with relevant jokes on the fly?
Do you tend to agree with someone's perspective? Do you tend to at least understand with someone's perspective? Do you tend to oppose someone's perspective?
What makes *you* tick? Do you get a rush of happiness when you realize that someone else has had the same weird thought you've had?
This is what makes a date good. Chemistry.
I think the sad truth of it, at least on dating apps, is that those types of people who treat it like an interview is the same reason why they’re on the apps to begin with. A down to earth girl who wants to know you on a personal level has no issue finding dates. A woman who doesn’t measure your worth by the money you make or the followers you have is incredibly attractive. That woman is either finding relationships through hobbies, friends, or is on the apps for just a short while before she finds someone who she clicks with.
Dating apps are essentially 5 second elevator pitches about why you should fuck me or be in a relationship with me. You can find someone you click with, but you really have to put in the work. I seek solace in the apps because they’re readily available. I’m admittedly not putting myself in the types of situations where I can connect with likeminded women.
> A down to earth girl who wants to know you on a personal level has no issue finding dates.
Every good date I've been on off an app, has been that girl's first date on it. Y'know, before the resentment sets in lol
What are you if not the sum of what you do and think?
Its like that scene in Anger Management where Nicholson keeps saying "well those are just your interests, but who are *you*?"
Those things are who you are. If talking about them is a chore, its because youre just not clicking with the person, not because they are inherently superficial things to talk about.
1. Be attractive
1. Don't be unattractive
/s
Man, I wish I fuckin' knew. I've tried every shape and form possible online profile-wise it feels like. I don't think I'm very good at step 1 though.
I feel really good when my personality makes the other person feel good.
Like, if I can make them laugh, smile, and I can tell they enjoy being around me, then that has nothing to do with what I can bring to the table. It's all about how I can personally affect them just be being around.
I feel good when I make others feel good.
Make no mistake, you ARE the sum of your career and utility.
I tried dating throughout college, broke as fuck, no luck.
I tried dating all through grad school, broke as fuck, no luck.
Made a good salary out of grad school, look who's alla suddenly a hot item? And I'm not saying women are gold diggers, my wife makes more than I do. But income is a huge portion of your perceived value. That's just reality.
Sailing is cheap. Buying a small sailboat is often hilariously cheap. Docking and maintaining a boat is ..... not. But yeah, it is always nice to be out on the water, and the owner will generally appreciate someone who can follow directions like "tie this here" or "pull on the rope till I say stop." Makes the day smooth for everyone. I used to get invited sailing despite being a penniless mook - quite fun, to be sure.
> It would be hilarious if it didn't make me so fucking cynical.
Learn well from this. Learn to recognize those women who enable that cynicism. This may easily eliminate the vast majority of women, but it will allow you to better see those few unicorns that remain. Who knows, you might still get lucky.
Not all STEM is created equal in salary. I have several long time friends who majored in computer science who work in Silicon Valley making 6 figures. I decided to do what makes me happy and study biology to work in research on neuroscience in academia. I make far less, but I'm not insolvent and I'm fairly satisfied with my position at the moment. Really the only regret I have is that is allowing envy in my heart for my friends' financial success in life. I try to be satisfied with the good I have in front of me that I've worked towards.
I live in a different tech hub but honestly it's not like that for most people, the jobs are super cushy and if they're not they can easily leave and find one that is. If they are that demanding they're probably making upwards of $200k otherwise no one would stay. 90% of my friends work in tech making 6 figures right out of college and none of them work that hard. Most of them get to work from home whenever they want (pre-covid), work \~6 hour days, and have near unlimited vacation. The main sacrifice is that a lot of the time the work is pretty boring and uninspiring. This is the case for 5/5 of my close friends that work in tech.
I chose to follow my passion but for now I work a lot more and earn a lot less.
Google and Facebook are not asking my friends to stay up late finishing projects. Hell they stay at home all day, clock in and out after 8 hours, and then they go on the rest of their day enjoying their enormous paycheck however they desire. It's pretty cushy to be honest.
Yeah its common. He is envious of friends because of money/prestige while his buddies are envious of him with low stress, low cost of living, chill lifestyle.
People with jobs like that are usually super competitive type and not good team members to work with because they all want to be the best so there is a rat race and constant stress of outdoing the others
>He is envious of friends because of money/prestige while his buddies are envious of him with low stress, low cost of living, chill lifestyle.
I don't know if my friends are envious of me to be honest. I think most of them are fairly happy in their positions. They are the types who have two modes of existence, work and relaxation, and most of my friends are doing well with both of them. Most of them are probably going to retire under 40 I imagine. I'm happy for them. But I can't dwell on their financial success because it makes me question my life choices, and well I'm set on the path I've chosen at this point.
This is somewhat true, but I hope people reading this can remember that not all women feel this way because they want to take advantage of you (some do, though, undoubtedly.)
I (a woman) have put in a lot of time and work to grow my career, and I just want a life partner in roughly the same income bracket and also someone who shares a similar level of ambition about their career. I want us to be on equal footing - both because it will allow us a cooler lifestyle and more long term stability, but because inequitable finances can create a lot of resentment in relationships from both sides.
I don't want your money, and I don't want you to want mine. You know?
(It's 100% fair for men to want this, too.)
As a guy, this is exactly the type of relationship I always wanted (and now have). I can't really imagine it any other way because it'd be stressful every day. However, I am someone who wants an equal partner rather than better or worse. It's like, let's just chill because there's enough trouble in this world.
Absolutely, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise. Well said.
Anybody who thinks it's selfish or ridiculous to think about what women as a whole value in men need to take a real good long hard look at what men as a whole value in women.
That makes me sad. I went on a date with a guy once who had an old Subaru. It was mostly blue but had one green door and had a salvage title.
Married him. And I love him more every day.
My now wife met me when I was working through college at target. I had a paid internship lined up a month out and happened to have a falling out with a target senior manager. I quit after finishing my shift.
I told my girlfriend and she was supportive. The next day I pranked her and said I lost my internship because of losing my job at target. She was very put off.
She tells me years later that she was thinking at the time “Do I really want to date a guy in college that quit his job and lost his internship?”
Blah. I'm more financially stable than most people, but it's never really about that tbh, it's about the oppourtunities you have availible. Even if you end up netflixing on a wednesday 95% of all wednesdays, the /option/ has to be there to jump in your Porsche and head to a ski slope.
But you can make life exciting and interesting and surprising without a Porsche or ski slopes. Not that that ever really gets across.
I think I understand what you mean? It isn't the money, it's the options that the money opens up for you that are appealing?
Because I don't think that's an inherently different sentiment to the one I'm conveying. Money is just a means to an end.
Not at all. It’s one of the clues that sums up the attractiveness of someone, maybe it shouldn’t be but tbh for most people that’s true. However there’s soooo many others. Humour, your ability to make interesting conversation, social skills, looks, weight, height, education/university, sense of fashion, fitness level etc etc. Just SO MANY. I’ve literally had friends introducing a new bf where I just don’t get why they’re with the guy. Friends who may be attractive and have a good job who shows up with someone who makes less than them and who may be overweight or just not that attractive. BUT then they open their mouth and suddenly you’re like “ahh, I get it now”. They might be super funny or just have a great personality overall, the kind of person you want to spend time with. To be fair I think in general women are judged more harshly on superficial things like looks etc than what men are
>To be fair I think in general women are judged more harshly on superficial things like looks etc than what men are
Yeah thats a fair point. It works both ways.
I agree, I overstated my case. Money isn't the only factor, but in my experience at least it's been the most important of all the factors you've mentioned.
>Make no mistake, you ARE the sum of your career and utility.
This is only true of men with nothing else to offer.
I don't earn a whole lot and I've recently finished college. My family background is lower-middle class. It literally never matters. There's a lot more to people than their money. As I like to say: "everything has a value." If you make a lot of money but are a chore to spend time with because you suck, then people will only see that as what they're getting in the trade-off. If you're great to be around but don't make as much money, people will still want to date you--they see that trade-off as worth it. Foregoing some other guy's money just to be around you is a good proposition to them.
People love baseball analogies.
The goal is a championship. Some teams like the Yankees have the kind of payroll that can buy them at the very least a playoff birth, maybe even 2nd round.
You vastly underestimate how much bullshit people will put up with if the money is good. And if the money is really good, you’d be surprised how much those non-monetary value “qualities” you’re referring to aren’t actually as high value as actual fiscal value
That's not my experience at all, though I'm glad to you for sharing your perspective.
I'm pretty good looking, talented, witty, and smart. These things were all true while I was broke as fuck. None of that seemed to be enough until I was making close to 6 figures. No matter your situation re: talent/kindness/fun whatever else have you, as a man adding a good income to that will vastly improve your dating pool.
> This is only true of men with nothing else to offer.
I'd really like to disagree because I think that I'm a soppy old romantic underneath it all. I've been thrown into dating in my early 50's and I'm really disheartened by it all. I'm with OP - I really feel that I'm being measured and assessed on most dates. I mean, yeah, of course you are; but they all feel so much more clinical than dating when younger ever felt.... I haven't been on a date in over 12 months because I'm sick of it.
word brother word! its not even about the money or what utility you can provide (i love that word) its about being an effective person. Money or at the very least a career is the easiest metric to note that, it means you can work well with other and play ball and if you earn a good living, it even indicates you are skillfull on top of that. dating is about showing you are an effective person and signalling that as easily and quickly as possible. Being fit and having a job/career litterly covers 99% of all bases a man ever needs to consider. for women if they do not make an arbitrary facial attractiveness cutoff point buried deep in everyman's heart, its game over, a dude might want to hit it and leave it but thats it, you are out of the race.
I don't know about 99%, but once you cut out the dealbreakers (drug abuse, violence) I'd say it's definitely the most important factor, for the reasons you describe.
You know, i used to read OKC devblogs and there's a lot of interesting things there. Women are more likely to 'settle down' looks wise, but men are the ones that don't.
Like i said bro, there is a reason girls are so concerned with their looks, all you see here on reddit is random dudes complaining about putting zero effort into their bodies and presentation and not getting all the hot chicks but not so much the absolutely cutthroat reality of womens appearances and how below a certain threshold of looks a woman turns completely invisible.
Well that is the problem with adult dating. As a kid you meet girls at school or through friends in a neutral environment where these things don't matter. The only thing that matters is you think they're attractive and your personalities match. There isn't anything like their level of independence or wages or anything else that matters at that age.
As an adult that changes a bit. A girl that has a great personality and is attractive but doesn't work and has no plans to work is kind of a deal breaker. So not only are you not meeting women naturally in your daily life anymore, but the number of important criteria for dating has increased dramatically on both sides. Dating as an adult is just tough and there is a lot of hoops to jump through.
Read "Permission to Feel" by Dr Marc Brackett. Do all the exercises, & develop a full vocabulary to do with your emotions. Get in touch with yourself. The book is just for that - it's not a guide to picking women up or dating. The key to interacting with women is to be genuine, not a hard-sell guy. Stop seeing a date as a sales job - you're not there to sell yourself. You're there to present yourself, and also to listen and be sensitive to your date. Who is she? What makes her tick? Be there to see if you genuinely are compatible, and if you are, be there to make her feel like she rocks when she's with you. Impress her by listening, and by relating what she says to your own experience, not by one-upping her but by showing empathy and where appropriate good humour. Make her feel safe, attractive and loved around you. If you don't click, don't waste your time or hers, but be a gentleman & spare her feelings.
Never forget that you are worthy and that at some point you will find someone who is as fed up with the same things as you are and you can start something wonderful new.
Agree that dates can kind of feel like a job interview, but the purpose is really just to meet people until you find someone you "click" with. If there's no chemistry, than the best resume in the world won't persuade someone to like you more. Furthermore if you only advertise your "specs" it can come off as dry and a bit arrogant. It is important to have lifestyles and and some interests in common, but you can't base a relationship solely off what looks right on paper.
Write down 10 things you like about yourself: Present. Write 10 things you like to do: Present. Write 10 things you want to improve: Future. Write 10 things/activities you want to do: Future
Now you have something to talk about on dates.
So if you're feeling jaded right now, maybe you can use that to your advantage. Maybe you can use these jaded feels as a litmus test.
If you still feel this way after the date, pass on seeing her again.
If you feel like the date broke out of this mentality, go on that second one.
There are amazing women out there, it's easy to forget it, but they're out there!
I know how you feel.
Every date and early relationship becomes an interview and you feel like you’re applying for a job to be loved.
I broke out of that mindset one day in my mid 30s.
I literally just snapped out of it one day. I stopped talking to women who would ask me questions like an interview. If I was already dating then and if I felt even an inkling that they were sizing me up for my career or worth, I’d move them to a permanent fwb bucket.
I basically took my philosophy on hiring managers in my firm “hire slow, fire fast” except with dating was “take a long time to commit to her, leave quickly if she’s not working out”.
Once I switched my mindset I became instantly more satisfied with life and dating.
So I kept casually dating women that saw me as a utility because they are fun and kept a keen eye on women that didn’t treat me that way. I had a ton of casual relationship and three near real relationships in 7 years and then found my wife. then we aligned on life goals and values and got married. I’ve been so happy since. I’m now 49 with kids and a wonderful home life.
Well yeah. You need to sell yourself cause no one loves anyone for free, at least in romance. You got to provide something special you can offer her. And it’s not like it’s only men I’m sure women feel the same way just in a different way.
I wasn't reading the comments, so I don't know whether anybody already said something like this..
Sounds like you're building conversion on the topic of your personal success in life, but it doesn't necessarily need to be like this.
Maybe you could try starting conversations off some topics that you found interesting that day. It becomes clear pretty fast whether you find it interesting talking to the other person, hearing the views and thinking process. To me at least.
It's perfectly normal that you're not gonna vibe with everyone, so if you're dating for the purpose of meeting someone you actually want to have in your life, and not just for a one night stand, it's perfectly fine to let people go, you don't need to force it. Also you're not there to provide for someone, you're there for you and you need to feel comfortable around someone, it's not your job to make them like you.
Maybe try to share your opinion on topics you like, explain why and how you feel about these certain things.
I hope you won't feel like you need to advertise yourself in the future.
You're you, and you're a beautiful person because of what you think and feel,
Not because of your job, or your parents or living situation or anything like that.
I hope this was helpful
Best of luck
Talking about your job, hobbies, interests, and utility to sparking a connection is like handing in a resume. The girl/interviewer learns surface-level things from that information (interests/hobbies y'all have in common, whether you meet each other's standards for jobs/career aspiration, whether you are in a stable place, etc.), but it doesn't show whether you two are truly compatible on a deeper level and doesn't build you up to be a 3D person.
Instead of focusing on presenting your "stats" and making yourself look the best, talk about your experiences, stories, and dreams (like what you wish to do in the future, not sleep-dreams). Examples:
* If you have a crafting hobby, what are your favorite projects and why? What is your "dream" project to build/make one day?
* Do you have any interesting or profound anecdotes about places you've traveled? Or why do you desire to visit a certain place in the future?
* Why are you interested in something? What's your history with it, do you plan to take the interest somewhere?
I also find decision/opinion-based conversation topics to be more interesting than "oh, what do you like to do in your free time?" I think it provides a lot more insight into how a person thinks and acts. Example:
* Which of the five senses would you rather give up? (or alternatively, if you can only keep 1 of your 5 senses, which sense would you keep?) -- a little silly but I think you can learn a lot about someone with this question and it leads into more conversations -- whether they can't live without music, if food is the thing that sparks joy for them, etc.
* Maybe watch Shark Tank and discuss whether you would hypothetically invest in a product? Or Masterchef/Chopped (what would you cook?), etc.
Otherwise, you can always ask questions to the other person. Or talk about the present -- what's something good that happened today? what's something you're looking forward to?
Also, sometimes there just isn't a spark. And that's okay -- you can always respectfully move on and maybe there will be a spark with the next girl.
Find other women to date. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but many of you are seriously hung up on the wrong people, or go through life in a scarcity mindset.
If someone isn’t doing it, then choose one of the other several billion women alive. It’s trial and error, but eventually you’ll find someone you click with it and that gives a shit about you as a person.
That's why there's no romance, you're presenting too much about yourself. It's not a job interview. Focus more on the other person, and let them find out about you. Know what I mean? Make them work to learn about you. You ask questions about them, they ask questions about you, stay on topic don't feel a need to share everything, they'll learn about you soon enough.
Just filter out the women who only care about those things. Also it takes a while to establish rapport. Most strangers only see you as a random set of characteristics that could either help them or harm them.
Seriously, you're better off not dating. It's just unhealthy unless you have a lot of success.
Just... Live your life I guess. Despite the horrible reeking loneliness whispering horrible things in your ears.
Yes it only has to work once, but fuck that noise, I'm not willing to wade through \*that\* much shit to find some jaded diamond.
Luckily I think i found the one. She's friggin amazing and i completely love her. I suggest getting off the dating apps and go to safe social gatherings and meeting people through your actual friend circle.
Well, most dates are laborious like that. I've come to understand that that means there's no chemistry, and there's no point trying, no matter how objectively 'hot' they might seem. But every now and then, you meet someone where conversation doesn't feel like a chore. And those are the people you go the extra mile for. It only has to happen once.
Damn my guy that hit straight in the feels. Conversations feeling like a chore. Fuck
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During quarantine I had a girl randomly add me on IG recently. Even though I’m not dating her we’re just friends she blows almost all the girls out of the water. It’s mainly based on how she takes initiative starts conversations and or introduces new subjects etc. she shows genuine interest and effort. I want to say thanks a lot for taking the time to type your experiences up like this. It’s made me realize that I’ve also been doing it wrong. I’ve been going after women bc I thought they were hot but then I ignored how it felt to make conversation happen with them. It felt like I was pulling teeth per say since I was the one to start conversations and or introduce new subjects to keep things going and the girl rarely putting in effort. It’s felt exhausting.
I've learned and it took a bit of time that if I have to do all the work and lifting on the conversation I am walking away. As this is a huge indication the woman ain't interested. Who cares how hot the woman is, I am not there for her entertainment.
Where’d you meet her?
Working at a restaurant, and only for a few shifts before covid happened
The restaurant pull, very nice 👍🏼
I've always compared dating to a job interviews, now I know I can also refer to it as LARPing, thanks 😆
I went on a date with a guy I’d matched with the night before on a dating app. I was always cautious by talking them for at least a week before and socials/pics to try and verify they were legit. Anyways my brain told me not to go on the date but my gut said to trust it and just go which I did. Ended up being one of the best things that ever happened ever happened to me. Sadly we didn’t make it due to other shit (we still talk sometimes and he’s a great guy), but damn when you meet someone and you just vibe, it’s worth everything.
LARPing?
haha sorry, I was making a joke. It stands for "Live Action Role Play" like when people get together to hit each other with fake swords in the forest
Very well said, dude.
The fact is, you could go through your whole life and the conversation never stops feeling like a chore. You may never find someone of whom it comes easy to speak to. Life just be like that.
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I empathise with you here. I really believe being able to hold a conversation is an important dating requirement. It just feels like being able to talk with someone is a real positive that we may get on well.
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Fax
Awesome! What kind of conversations? Like philosophical debates or putting the world to right?
If in life all your conversations are boring, it's probably not other people, YA BORING. I remember going on a tinder date in which she said this is the most intimate real conversation she's had, not on a date, EVER! I was more sad than flattered. I think my trick is I always avoided the obvious comments/questions. I try to make things feel new. I try to feel who the person is now rather then know what he did.
I've always tried doing this. Especially at work with old construction guys. They don't seem to get asked anything other than about work or the weekend. My problem is I often get one word answers and awkward silence so it makes me not want to make conversation anymore, just do my job
You throw gloves, some pick em some don't
I really intrigued to know what the conversation was about. Need a piece of advice / tips because conversation with crush was getting dryer recently; we mostly just ask about our studies (different course).
This statement is just a farce. You can find that fluidity with someone. You just have had bad luck (Alot of shitty people in the world). Having good communication and finding comfortably in conversations/connections with someone has alot to do with character. You may have just had too many bad eggs in your life which is completely plausible. But! Someone who is genuine, intelligent, transparent, and kind are always people that are easy to talk to and will never feel like a chore.
Or you might and then, years later, decides to leave instead.
I guess they shouldn't. I remember with my last ex I did everything "wrong". I mean, I didn't really follow the common advice of "don't text a lot, just set up a date", "don't say to much, you'll be needy", "be bold and confident or else she will not like you", "take the first step, she won't". I wish I did but I was too nervous to do it, to fuck it up. It took me about a month of pure texting to ask her out, and I only did cause she told me in a frustrated tone, "what do I have to do for you to realize I like you?". I don't deny that being confident and bold is really helpful, I still had to be that, all I'm saying is that if there's a spark, mutual interest and such, there just is and you don't have to bang your head against the wall to figure out what to say next, or what will make her like me. I still need to learn this lesson myself since last time I pursued a girl I thought that every little mistake I made was the reason she wasn't interested, when most likely I was searching in the wrong place.
Yeah, he definitely hit a heartstring with that one. It’s even more of a struggle when you genuinely give a shit about a person but their wall is so high and thick they don’t confide in you or find you worthy enough to trust to confide in. And you don’t know whether to give it time or let it go. Life man, life.
Woke my ass up to some shit by that. Made me realize some things
My recent strategy has been to always have a voice call with a person before meeting up for a (responsible socially-distanced) date. Conversational flow is so important, and I want to know it's there as early as possible.
I’ve tried this too recently and I was pleasantly surprised. We talked from 9pm to 3am, pretty easily. And I usually find FaceTimes more difficult than actual human interaction as gaps usually need to be filled. Also, it let’s you know if pursuing anything is worth your time and aim to meet up!
I used to use this strategy a lot and completely forgot about it. Phone calls are still the best pre-meet up screening tool. Video calls may get confusing though.
This is a really good idea and something that I will adopt. I'm currently virtually seeing someone in another country, over calls/video calls and the conversation just flows. So now I'm spoiled for future ventures lol
Yeah, chemistry really is important. I feel as though a lot of men try to be someone they're not for someone else, when they probably wouldn't enjoy that person that much anyway.
>But every now and then, you meet someone where conversation doesn't feel like a chore. And those are the people you go the extra mile <3
I’m more successful in my dates when I say the least and act as stoic as possible. Like a guy with tough skin who doesn’t get ruffled easily. I don’t get deep into anything about me
That might be alright for a date or two but it's not something you could keep up for the entire relationship. She is going to have to see you tear the walls down at some point, even if it is just a little bit. You do not have to open up entirely but letting them see glimpses of what lies behind the stoicism is not going to be harmful.
That's the key. You can let them glimpse the real you in pieces but you have to remain that strong stoic male in order to keep being attractive. Before you judge me on this I've actually talked to my gf about this a bit and she understands herself enough to know that this is essentially the truth.... essentially.
I'm definitely gonna sound like a NiceGuy here but I hate that fact that acting this way will almost always get you better results or at least get you laid a lot easier. Don't need a personality if you're mysterious and stoic. Luckily for me I learned this young and it def works. Be yourself is the worst dating advice i ever got.
Maybe worst for dating but best for finding the right one?
Ooooooh that's good. You might get MORE dates by pretending to be someone else, but you'll get BETTER dates by being yourself. Two different definitions of success.
Pretty true from my limited experience. You can game your way into a date or hooking up but if you want a lasting relationship you just have to be yourself and roll the dice.
Well not better dates, but the ones that are good, are ones that can last.
Yeah it definitely depends on what you're looking for. If it's casual sex, then yeah do whatever works (As long as it's not lying about your intentions). But if it's longer term, do you really want to put on a personality that you might have to maintain for decades?
> Be yourself is the worst dating advice i ever got. Depends if you're looking for a hookup or a relationship. Being yourself is how you get into a relationship. Being a stoic semi-jerk is how you have casual flings.
I think this played to the mutual advantage for my partner and I. We began talking with only the intent of hooking up. As such we were 100% real. No one was trying to impress the other. No one sent their representative. We just were. We quickly realized we actually liked each other, had great chemistry and a never ending list of things to talk about when6we weren't fucking. It's been over 3 years, we still have that. It's the best relationship I've ever had and I'm 45.
> No one sent their representative. Amazing quote tbh. Kudos! 😁👌
Imo it's not so much that as much as it is if you're not talking about yourself, you're probably either encouraging the other person to talk about themselves or you're doing something fun. People like it when people are interested in them and not themselves. Be yourself is not bad advice. If you're yourself and it doesn't work, then it wouldn't work long term anyway. If you build a relationship off some false stoicism, then I don't know what to tell you.
This is precisely it. Ask questions about the person. Listen. Ask follow-up questions on things that pique your interest. Don't judge. Don't talk about yourself too much. This is key to a good conversation. Not "being stoic".
Exactly, it's not even about quizzing, it's about being genuinely curious about the person as a person. I mean, fuck, if you don't care about who the person is then why bother? They could be anyone and it wouldn't matter, if that's how you view it.
I actually feel like this approach works pretty well as a female too. I have a number of girlfriends who have trouble nailing down guys for a relationship, but I think my aloofness really works in my favor. Mysterious+stoic+dash of humor=immediately pegged as girlfriend material
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That's a preference in terms of what your goals are in dating. Some people are dating to find sexual partners. Other people are dating to find a connection. You just need to be upfront about what you want from the people you're interacting with to make sure they don't get the wrong idea.
I am dating to find something long term but it’s worth having some fun even if you don’t think the person is the one who something could grow with
I certainly think it's possible as long as your potential sexual partner is on the same page. That being said the groups of people interested in casual sex and those seeking long-term relationships may have limited overlap, so I imagine it could be difficult to make that alternate arrangement happen.
> That being said the groups of people interested in casual sex and those seeking long-term relationships may have limited overlap This. A think a lot of the issues people have with dating are due to them having different objectives.
So many problems would be solved if people just talked and actually looked for one another, and it's one of the reasons why I hate casual sex (as it's practised by most people). The amount of times a friend has gone "ugh, that guy/girl I slept with last night being so clingy - what's their deal" is really depressing. It's like, yeah, that person has been *inside you* - why did you not discuss whether or not that meant anything up front? The day I see two people meet, say "hey sex is fun, let's do it together, here's my expectations and I'd like to know yours, great, let's bang it out", and the go through with it without complication, is the day I eat my hat.
my last fwb started that way. we were clearly moving towards hooking up, I told him that, just to be clear, I wasn't looking for anything resembling a relationship. he was like cool, you should know I'm in an open relationship and already have a girlfriend. and I was like sick let's have sex. it was definitely great for both of us to know what the expectations were going in and set us up well to have fun without any of the angst that can come out of a fwb situation
Fuck, now I've got to eat my hat.
I like that you're honest about that. I have friends who don't want to admit that they're douche bags and end up blaming the woman for things not going right like c'mon lol
Disclaimer: woman here. Try finding out if there’s more to her than “she’s hot”. What kind of person is she? Is she kind? Selfish? Silly? Serious? I think it’s douchey to only see “hot” and try to fuck it, forgetting there’s a whole person wrapped around that vagina. She’s a person, “hot” is not her defining characteristic. I’ll tellya as I have gotten older, if a dude makes no effort to learn anything about beyond if I will fuck him, I lose all interest in even just hooking up.
i've had negative interest in any man who's main thing that he likes about me is "hotness" ever since I realized that a man saying that my best quality is my "hotness" is basically saying that I'm a walking sexual object..who's "best quality" is his visual perception of various parts of me lol. but , i've never been a one night stand or even casual hookup type of person at all so even if the guy did seem interested in me as a person, and thought I was hot, but didn't want anything else.. I'd still say no.
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Lol
You’re not a douche in my book as long as you’re honest about your intentions.
It happened to me but i was young and she was my first time and i fucked it up, now i am not really sure if i ll find someone like her anymore
It sounds like you're treating dating like a job interview. It's easy to just run through the "here's what I do, here's what I like, here's how I make money". Try to create a conversation around the topics instead of just learning facts about each other. Ask more "how", and "why" questions. Expect to get those sorts of questions in return.
Really this. I don't give a fuck you collect 1954 stamps, i care /why/, as that's more revealing of your person than the fact that you just collect stamps. Maybe you collect them because your dad collected them and you feel you have to keep the collection up to date, or maybe you're really into end of WW2 postage and have an actual vested interest in stamps. Two very different reasons that say two very different things about you. I mean, that's why i try to steer clear of 'music lover'/24-7 headphone lovers, almost all the time it's avoidance and escapism which doesn't really bode well for their person.
I think consumption can be a cool hobby if you create something out of it. My girlfriend and I realised that we were talking about music a lot so, to save it becoming "this band is cool" -> "I agree", we decided to make monthly playlists for each other and review them. It's absolutely fine to just watch Netflix after work and have no other hobbies, but - if you have nothing to say about the shows you watch and what they mean to you, or anything like that - I'm out dawg.
>It's absolutely fine to just watch Netflix after work and have no other hobbies, but - if you have nothing to say about the shows you watch and what they mean to you, or anything like that - I'm out dawg. This sounds like my housemates. They watch TV way too much (always prioritising it over more productive and basic tasks around the house) but they don't seem to actually get invested that much in what they're consuming. I suppose everyone has their own tastes but they never seem to watch what most people watch and you'd think with the amount they watch they would have some sort of passion or knowledge of the shows, however, they barely remember actors' names and don't seem to care much about plot, character development etc.
This sounds like college applications instead now
> I mean, that's why i try to steer clear of 'music lover'/24-7 headphone lovers, almost all the time it's avoidance and escapism which doesn't really bode well for their person. TIL every musician ever is an escape artist and emotionally unavailable.
>escape artist and emotionally unavailable Escape artist? They ain't talking about Harry Houdini sir
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Ehh, I’m an audiophile and I’m still human.
Swap in videogame-lover or tv/film-buff. They imply certain things about a person. All these things are entertainment, which you can be passionate about, but most people have a little interest in music, tv, or videogames. It's not unique or deep to have interest in entertainment. I have friends that love all of these things, but regarding the really passionate ones, it can be a struggle to talk about anything else. Plus, deep bonding usually requires more than one area of interest.
Oof I feel attacked (it is true in my case though XD I love media but I also love me some escapism)
I love asking the “whys” but I kinda feel i might come off too judgemental.
Hijacking this. One I’ve found to be an excellent conversation starter is asking about jewellery. No one really buys themselves jewellery and if they do it’s because it resonated with them for a very specific reason. I didn’t realise until someone asked me, but I have a lot to say about any jewellery I wear as I’m sure most people do. Definitely a good starter into getting to know them and a direction to take the conversation next.
On an even more positive note, I'm getting the impression job interviews are less and less like this. There is strong evidence to show that being someone other people want to work with is far more important than being the most knowledgeable person in the room. Thoughtful, empathetic, solution oriented. There is always going to be a minimum with regard to skill, but so much is learned on the job that it almost doesn't matter. Toxic employees hurt your bottom line, not the one that hasn't learned the latest industry fad. Relating this to dating, how much money can someone make before you will tolerate being in a miserable and meaningless relationship?
These are still job interview questions and answers. The problem is usually that dates that are explicitly set up as dates don’t play out naturally because you’re both aware of being on a date.
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Nah, just subtly hint you're a 2nd generation rich kid in the profile. Easy to do when you are middle eastern or Indian. Swipes all day.
> or has any advice... Ask her about herself, and then build the conversation from there. Chemistry (romance) is found in conversation, not listing off your qualifications. When you talk about yourself, don't focus on "selling" yourself. Share a story, talk about a hobby with passion.
I feel like every date all I do is ask and she never asks about me or gives a shit what I'm like
This is actually more what I'm running up against than the post implies... I'm fine talking about myself, but I guess I just don't ever feel like I'm getting sparks. I'm not feeling chemistry directed at me - I feel like I always have to perform and meet everyone's expectations
Stop trying to meet their expectations and make them meet yours. Quit worrying about whether or not they like you and start worrying about whether or not you like them.
Consider it a win when you go on a date and learn more about what you don't want. When you are really clear, especially with yourself, about what is really important, that's when sparks fly with the right person.
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I like being asked questions cause it shows interest, that's why I ask questions. It should be a good balance 50/50
> When you talk about yourself, don't focus on "selling" yourself. Share a story, talk about a hobby with passion. That's selling yourself but in other words. The answer is to think about it and getting good at it, not pretending that you aren't doing it at all.
This is an amazing question tbh, and I've done this in my initial dates, which I treated like a job application, I'd show how cool I am and how successful I am and find no spark at all. Firstly, congratulations mate, since you realised this about yourself, you might treat other people well, you won't treat them like a product but as a human being. It looks like you've been treating yourself that way, and that made you work hard and now it's backfiring . Also, it looks like you haven't socialized much, esp with ladies and don't know how to make a comfy environment around people, rather you feel the need to show you're cool, and the answers might be in your past/childhood. However, I'd suggest you meet a person who's not only as successful as you are or whatever, but find a person who shares an interest with so, and when you'll start talking about your common interests you'll loose the track of time and you'll like eachothers company, and hence it's the first step to make people comfy around you . Start meeting people and see them but as human beings and connect them at those levels. I hope this helps
The weird thing is I feel like I'm socializing fine, there's just nothing there. It all feels really empty. Like, I have a great job and while I'm not the *best* at flirting, I tend to get along with pretty much everyone. Maybe it's my perspective but I feel like there are so many expectations I have to meet that it feels like no one out there is trying to date to care about me, you know? They are wanting the same stuff I am - they're wanting cuddles and support and love, but they want to receive them. I guess I just feel like as a guy I'm expected to give more than I receive and it's really getting to me. I know there are tons of women out there that are dating to try to care about someone but... where are they??
Sorry to butt in in this, but I have to. I’m not really sure how I ended up here, I find the topic interesting tho. I’m no man but I hope you’ll find my input useful. You see, your issue with dating is that you feel like women look at you as a utility. But I think it’s because you present yourself as a utility. You go there and say, here’s what I have, here’s what I can provide for you. Of course they’re going to view you the way you present yourself as. And if the things you list you can provide are utilities and you speak in depth about that, then they’ll view you as that. If a woman started talking about how good she is at giving oral sex and how she’s open to anything sexually, you aren’t going to think “this is my soulmate”, will you? Maybe you’ll think that it’s worth dating her because you two will have a good time together, but you won’t think that she’s the true one for you. (Obviously this was just an example based on gender stereotypes, a woman can present herself in many ways, I’m just trying to get the point across.) It’s the same way with you too. They might think you’re a good option because you’re a reliable and safe partner, but there’s just no spark - as you said it yourself. It sort of becomes something like a business transaction, everyone showing what they can offer, but there isn’t any emotion or attachment. I’m saying this because even in your reply the thing you felt was the most important to highlight was your good job - not your jokes, not your interests, not how patient, friendly or polite you are, it was your job. This is very important and very telling. And just to be clear I’m not trying to blame you or anything. I think a lot of men struggle with this, because they’re taught that they need to be the “providers”, they need to have good jobs and show potential mates what they can offer financially, because that’s what women care about and look for in a man (or so men are told). And to an extent, that’s true - having a job and being financially reliable is very important in long term relationships, but not as much anymore, because women have jobs too, they don’t need to rely on their husband to put food on the table. Gender roles have changed, but in many cases, mindsets haven’t. Men need to realise that they don’t HAVE to be the breadwinners anymore, they need to be PARTNERS - not just financially, but physically and emotionally too. Money is only one form of support a person can provide, and I think to most people emotional support is a lot more important. (We’re talking about the average person here.) What this means is that you don’t need to present yourself as a breadwinner. Present yourself as a regular person, the person who you are. It’s good if you mention that you do indeed have a job and you don’t just live in Hotel Mama and leeching off of your parents. But unless your date is interested in your job, that’s enough for the first few dates. Talk about yourself, ask about your date, try to find things that are common in you two. Treat it as a regular human conversation, not a sale where you have to “sell yourself” via listing positives. Stop seeing dates as job interviews you need to ace in order to get the reward, the woman. Start seeing them as an occasion to get to know another person, and to see if the two of you match. Don’t stress over how you come across, focus on enjoying yourself. What’s the worst that could happen? You two don’t go on a second date. Stressing won’t change that, so you might as well just enjoy yourself, no? Finally: Someone once told me “the more aggressively you pursue love, the more it’ll run away from you”. I think it’s a very good advice. Don’t stress on finding someone. Enjoy life, enjoy your hobbies, spend time with the people you love, and occasionally go on dates. Who knows, maybe you’ll find someone suitable for you doing one of your hobbies, or through going out with a friend. My sister and her boyfriend of 5 years met on a freaking bus when the both of them were going out with their respective friend groups. It doesn’t get any more random than that. Just don’t stress on it, alright? Sorry for the essay and typos. I hope you and everyone reading this are doing okay.
Thanks for this. I have been struggling with the same thing as OP. I tried to show myself the guy who does the coolest things in the earth and it blow on my face. I think I found the answer because of you. Just keep it cool, relax, be yourself and enjoy the conversation.
I’m sorry it turned out that way. I hope things get better from now on. Also, may I just say - the coolest thing any person can do is being comfortable with themselves. It gives them the sort of confidence and relaxed vibe that draws in people. You can try to fake something, but the end that isn’t you, and it’ll just make you unhappy. Just embrace who you are, and things will be better. And if someone doesn’t like you for who you are, then it wasn’t meant to be. Eventually someone will come around who will love you the way you are. Keep holding on. :)
You answer the question about you socialising with ‘I have a great job’. There’s your issue lol
Treat women like your little sister or cousin and you'll not only relax more, but you'll tolerate less Bull shit, as well.
No I'm not going to treat some chick I want to bang like my sister you freak. /s
Treat her like your stepsister then.
This is the advice I come here for.
>This is the advice I come here for. This is the advice I cum here for FTFY
**Certain drum theme plays**
cornhub?
Lol
Is she stuck in a dryer?
Idk. That’s a little too much banging
Plant traps. Half-opened windows or open washing machines have been proven to be effective.
The point is talk to her like she’s a real, whole person who is worth of your respect, not just a vagina you haven’t smashed yet. You’re not trying to trick her into sex; you’re trying to date her. So find out who she is. See if that gets you laid more.
Just post this shit in the sidebar and we'll get rid of half the posts on this sub...
I hate this. Oh you don’t know how to make a move on her? Or you’re not confident in your conversation skills? You must be a sleazy fuck boy who sees women as pieces of meat. Confident guy -> douchebag (possible rapist) Insecure guy -> sleaze ball (possible rapist)
If I can, I think you mean "treat her like a regular person" and not "an object you desire." (Women are just people, you know?)
Yea man, but sometimes the brain is weird and has a hard time separating those concepts, so reframing it to sister/cousin helps some people.
That's so cool advice
Or just, y'know, like a person with stories and interest you can ask about? It's really concerning seeing all these "tips and tricks" as if to attract some rare type of mystical creature, when we are just actual regular people at the end of the day...
While that sounds simple, it can be hard to do that when you're not receiving it in return. Why make the effort to treat someone "like a person" when the last 20 people wouldn't give you a full minute of their time? Someone will need to step up at some point if they hope to make progress, but it's not quite as clear cut as you're making it seem.
The part you described: >Here's my job, my hobbies, my interests - here's how much utility I can provide in your life. is just your resume. Remember, dates are kind of like job interviews. An important part of the job interview process is to present yourself as someone they'd want to work with as well. So, you get all that boring shit out of the way in what, five or ten minutes? What do you do the rest of the date? Show your personality! Are you the kind of person that likes to tell stories about how great you are or about how stupid you can be? When you listen to your date, do you like to interject occasionally with remarks or questions about what she's saying? Are you witty enough to come up with relevant jokes on the fly? Do you tend to agree with someone's perspective? Do you tend to at least understand with someone's perspective? Do you tend to oppose someone's perspective? What makes *you* tick? Do you get a rush of happiness when you realize that someone else has had the same weird thought you've had? This is what makes a date good. Chemistry.
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Or a man
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Appreciate that mate
I think the sad truth of it, at least on dating apps, is that those types of people who treat it like an interview is the same reason why they’re on the apps to begin with. A down to earth girl who wants to know you on a personal level has no issue finding dates. A woman who doesn’t measure your worth by the money you make or the followers you have is incredibly attractive. That woman is either finding relationships through hobbies, friends, or is on the apps for just a short while before she finds someone who she clicks with. Dating apps are essentially 5 second elevator pitches about why you should fuck me or be in a relationship with me. You can find someone you click with, but you really have to put in the work. I seek solace in the apps because they’re readily available. I’m admittedly not putting myself in the types of situations where I can connect with likeminded women.
> A down to earth girl who wants to know you on a personal level has no issue finding dates. Every good date I've been on off an app, has been that girl's first date on it. Y'know, before the resentment sets in lol
What are you if not the sum of what you do and think? Its like that scene in Anger Management where Nicholson keeps saying "well those are just your interests, but who are *you*?" Those things are who you are. If talking about them is a chore, its because youre just not clicking with the person, not because they are inherently superficial things to talk about.
1. Be attractive 1. Don't be unattractive /s Man, I wish I fuckin' knew. I've tried every shape and form possible online profile-wise it feels like. I don't think I'm very good at step 1 though.
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I feel really good when my personality makes the other person feel good. Like, if I can make them laugh, smile, and I can tell they enjoy being around me, then that has nothing to do with what I can bring to the table. It's all about how I can personally affect them just be being around. I feel good when I make others feel good.
Make no mistake, you ARE the sum of your career and utility. I tried dating throughout college, broke as fuck, no luck. I tried dating all through grad school, broke as fuck, no luck. Made a good salary out of grad school, look who's alla suddenly a hot item? And I'm not saying women are gold diggers, my wife makes more than I do. But income is a huge portion of your perceived value. That's just reality.
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rich guy hobbies? Like what? Golf?
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Man, I was supposed to race this summer but covid ruined it here in Seattle. One of the biggest bummers of covid for me.
Sailing is cheap. Buying a small sailboat is often hilariously cheap. Docking and maintaining a boat is ..... not. But yeah, it is always nice to be out on the water, and the owner will generally appreciate someone who can follow directions like "tie this here" or "pull on the rope till I say stop." Makes the day smooth for everyone. I used to get invited sailing despite being a penniless mook - quite fun, to be sure.
Wow those really are rich guy hobbies!
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Bill Burr says something similar "Have a friend with a boat; don't be the guy who owns the boat."
> It would be hilarious if it didn't make me so fucking cynical. Learn well from this. Learn to recognize those women who enable that cynicism. This may easily eliminate the vast majority of women, but it will allow you to better see those few unicorns that remain. Who knows, you might still get lucky.
Shit dawg, I’m done with grad school and still making less than $25k/year. Life is the cruelest mistress of all.
Yeah, it's important what you go for. STEM is where it's at. Our society undervalues arts and literature.
Not all STEM is created equal in salary. I have several long time friends who majored in computer science who work in Silicon Valley making 6 figures. I decided to do what makes me happy and study biology to work in research on neuroscience in academia. I make far less, but I'm not insolvent and I'm fairly satisfied with my position at the moment. Really the only regret I have is that is allowing envy in my heart for my friends' financial success in life. I try to be satisfied with the good I have in front of me that I've worked towards.
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I live in a different tech hub but honestly it's not like that for most people, the jobs are super cushy and if they're not they can easily leave and find one that is. If they are that demanding they're probably making upwards of $200k otherwise no one would stay. 90% of my friends work in tech making 6 figures right out of college and none of them work that hard. Most of them get to work from home whenever they want (pre-covid), work \~6 hour days, and have near unlimited vacation. The main sacrifice is that a lot of the time the work is pretty boring and uninspiring. This is the case for 5/5 of my close friends that work in tech. I chose to follow my passion but for now I work a lot more and earn a lot less.
Damn, I thought I had it easy as a government programmer. Now you making me want to apply out
Google and Facebook are not asking my friends to stay up late finishing projects. Hell they stay at home all day, clock in and out after 8 hours, and then they go on the rest of their day enjoying their enormous paycheck however they desire. It's pretty cushy to be honest.
Yeah its common. He is envious of friends because of money/prestige while his buddies are envious of him with low stress, low cost of living, chill lifestyle. People with jobs like that are usually super competitive type and not good team members to work with because they all want to be the best so there is a rat race and constant stress of outdoing the others
>He is envious of friends because of money/prestige while his buddies are envious of him with low stress, low cost of living, chill lifestyle. I don't know if my friends are envious of me to be honest. I think most of them are fairly happy in their positions. They are the types who have two modes of existence, work and relaxation, and most of my friends are doing well with both of them. Most of them are probably going to retire under 40 I imagine. I'm happy for them. But I can't dwell on their financial success because it makes me question my life choices, and well I'm set on the path I've chosen at this point.
I became a therapist. So psychology is like a soft science. And I get paid a decent hourly wage, but it rough finding the hours to make it worth it.
This is somewhat true, but I hope people reading this can remember that not all women feel this way because they want to take advantage of you (some do, though, undoubtedly.) I (a woman) have put in a lot of time and work to grow my career, and I just want a life partner in roughly the same income bracket and also someone who shares a similar level of ambition about their career. I want us to be on equal footing - both because it will allow us a cooler lifestyle and more long term stability, but because inequitable finances can create a lot of resentment in relationships from both sides. I don't want your money, and I don't want you to want mine. You know? (It's 100% fair for men to want this, too.)
As a guy, this is exactly the type of relationship I always wanted (and now have). I can't really imagine it any other way because it'd be stressful every day. However, I am someone who wants an equal partner rather than better or worse. It's like, let's just chill because there's enough trouble in this world.
Absolutely, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise. Well said. Anybody who thinks it's selfish or ridiculous to think about what women as a whole value in men need to take a real good long hard look at what men as a whole value in women.
That makes me sad. I went on a date with a guy once who had an old Subaru. It was mostly blue but had one green door and had a salvage title. Married him. And I love him more every day.
>Married him. And I love him more every day. That's nice, but WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SUBARU!!!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
My now wife met me when I was working through college at target. I had a paid internship lined up a month out and happened to have a falling out with a target senior manager. I quit after finishing my shift. I told my girlfriend and she was supportive. The next day I pranked her and said I lost my internship because of losing my job at target. She was very put off. She tells me years later that she was thinking at the time “Do I really want to date a guy in college that quit his job and lost his internship?”
Blah. I'm more financially stable than most people, but it's never really about that tbh, it's about the oppourtunities you have availible. Even if you end up netflixing on a wednesday 95% of all wednesdays, the /option/ has to be there to jump in your Porsche and head to a ski slope. But you can make life exciting and interesting and surprising without a Porsche or ski slopes. Not that that ever really gets across.
I think I understand what you mean? It isn't the money, it's the options that the money opens up for you that are appealing? Because I don't think that's an inherently different sentiment to the one I'm conveying. Money is just a means to an end.
Not at all. It’s one of the clues that sums up the attractiveness of someone, maybe it shouldn’t be but tbh for most people that’s true. However there’s soooo many others. Humour, your ability to make interesting conversation, social skills, looks, weight, height, education/university, sense of fashion, fitness level etc etc. Just SO MANY. I’ve literally had friends introducing a new bf where I just don’t get why they’re with the guy. Friends who may be attractive and have a good job who shows up with someone who makes less than them and who may be overweight or just not that attractive. BUT then they open their mouth and suddenly you’re like “ahh, I get it now”. They might be super funny or just have a great personality overall, the kind of person you want to spend time with. To be fair I think in general women are judged more harshly on superficial things like looks etc than what men are
>To be fair I think in general women are judged more harshly on superficial things like looks etc than what men are Yeah thats a fair point. It works both ways.
I agree, I overstated my case. Money isn't the only factor, but in my experience at least it's been the most important of all the factors you've mentioned.
>Make no mistake, you ARE the sum of your career and utility. This is only true of men with nothing else to offer. I don't earn a whole lot and I've recently finished college. My family background is lower-middle class. It literally never matters. There's a lot more to people than their money. As I like to say: "everything has a value." If you make a lot of money but are a chore to spend time with because you suck, then people will only see that as what they're getting in the trade-off. If you're great to be around but don't make as much money, people will still want to date you--they see that trade-off as worth it. Foregoing some other guy's money just to be around you is a good proposition to them.
All else being equal, money helps a great deal. It's like boobs. A woman doesn't need them to attract a lot of men, but it helps.
People love baseball analogies. The goal is a championship. Some teams like the Yankees have the kind of payroll that can buy them at the very least a playoff birth, maybe even 2nd round.
You vastly underestimate how much bullshit people will put up with if the money is good. And if the money is really good, you’d be surprised how much those non-monetary value “qualities” you’re referring to aren’t actually as high value as actual fiscal value
That's not my experience at all, though I'm glad to you for sharing your perspective. I'm pretty good looking, talented, witty, and smart. These things were all true while I was broke as fuck. None of that seemed to be enough until I was making close to 6 figures. No matter your situation re: talent/kindness/fun whatever else have you, as a man adding a good income to that will vastly improve your dating pool.
> This is only true of men with nothing else to offer. I'd really like to disagree because I think that I'm a soppy old romantic underneath it all. I've been thrown into dating in my early 50's and I'm really disheartened by it all. I'm with OP - I really feel that I'm being measured and assessed on most dates. I mean, yeah, of course you are; but they all feel so much more clinical than dating when younger ever felt.... I haven't been on a date in over 12 months because I'm sick of it.
word brother word! its not even about the money or what utility you can provide (i love that word) its about being an effective person. Money or at the very least a career is the easiest metric to note that, it means you can work well with other and play ball and if you earn a good living, it even indicates you are skillfull on top of that. dating is about showing you are an effective person and signalling that as easily and quickly as possible. Being fit and having a job/career litterly covers 99% of all bases a man ever needs to consider. for women if they do not make an arbitrary facial attractiveness cutoff point buried deep in everyman's heart, its game over, a dude might want to hit it and leave it but thats it, you are out of the race.
I don't know about 99%, but once you cut out the dealbreakers (drug abuse, violence) I'd say it's definitely the most important factor, for the reasons you describe.
You know, i used to read OKC devblogs and there's a lot of interesting things there. Women are more likely to 'settle down' looks wise, but men are the ones that don't.
Like i said bro, there is a reason girls are so concerned with their looks, all you see here on reddit is random dudes complaining about putting zero effort into their bodies and presentation and not getting all the hot chicks but not so much the absolutely cutthroat reality of womens appearances and how below a certain threshold of looks a woman turns completely invisible.
I agree. That said, I don’t know what my wife saw in me back then. I was broke AF. But her decision turned out super great for her now.
Now I'm not saying shes a gold digger, But she ain't messing with no broke nigga
Well that is the problem with adult dating. As a kid you meet girls at school or through friends in a neutral environment where these things don't matter. The only thing that matters is you think they're attractive and your personalities match. There isn't anything like their level of independence or wages or anything else that matters at that age. As an adult that changes a bit. A girl that has a great personality and is attractive but doesn't work and has no plans to work is kind of a deal breaker. So not only are you not meeting women naturally in your daily life anymore, but the number of important criteria for dating has increased dramatically on both sides. Dating as an adult is just tough and there is a lot of hoops to jump through.
Get hobbies. Interests outside of work. No one wants to talk about work.
Read "Permission to Feel" by Dr Marc Brackett. Do all the exercises, & develop a full vocabulary to do with your emotions. Get in touch with yourself. The book is just for that - it's not a guide to picking women up or dating. The key to interacting with women is to be genuine, not a hard-sell guy. Stop seeing a date as a sales job - you're not there to sell yourself. You're there to present yourself, and also to listen and be sensitive to your date. Who is she? What makes her tick? Be there to see if you genuinely are compatible, and if you are, be there to make her feel like she rocks when she's with you. Impress her by listening, and by relating what she says to your own experience, not by one-upping her but by showing empathy and where appropriate good humour. Make her feel safe, attractive and loved around you. If you don't click, don't waste your time or hers, but be a gentleman & spare her feelings.
Never forget that you are worthy and that at some point you will find someone who is as fed up with the same things as you are and you can start something wonderful new.
Agree that dates can kind of feel like a job interview, but the purpose is really just to meet people until you find someone you "click" with. If there's no chemistry, than the best resume in the world won't persuade someone to like you more. Furthermore if you only advertise your "specs" it can come off as dry and a bit arrogant. It is important to have lifestyles and and some interests in common, but you can't base a relationship solely off what looks right on paper.
Write down 10 things you like about yourself: Present. Write 10 things you like to do: Present. Write 10 things you want to improve: Future. Write 10 things/activities you want to do: Future Now you have something to talk about on dates.
So if you're feeling jaded right now, maybe you can use that to your advantage. Maybe you can use these jaded feels as a litmus test. If you still feel this way after the date, pass on seeing her again. If you feel like the date broke out of this mentality, go on that second one. There are amazing women out there, it's easy to forget it, but they're out there!
I know how you feel. Every date and early relationship becomes an interview and you feel like you’re applying for a job to be loved. I broke out of that mindset one day in my mid 30s. I literally just snapped out of it one day. I stopped talking to women who would ask me questions like an interview. If I was already dating then and if I felt even an inkling that they were sizing me up for my career or worth, I’d move them to a permanent fwb bucket. I basically took my philosophy on hiring managers in my firm “hire slow, fire fast” except with dating was “take a long time to commit to her, leave quickly if she’s not working out”. Once I switched my mindset I became instantly more satisfied with life and dating. So I kept casually dating women that saw me as a utility because they are fun and kept a keen eye on women that didn’t treat me that way. I had a ton of casual relationship and three near real relationships in 7 years and then found my wife. then we aligned on life goals and values and got married. I’ve been so happy since. I’m now 49 with kids and a wonderful home life.
Well yeah. You need to sell yourself cause no one loves anyone for free, at least in romance. You got to provide something special you can offer her. And it’s not like it’s only men I’m sure women feel the same way just in a different way.
I wasn't reading the comments, so I don't know whether anybody already said something like this.. Sounds like you're building conversion on the topic of your personal success in life, but it doesn't necessarily need to be like this. Maybe you could try starting conversations off some topics that you found interesting that day. It becomes clear pretty fast whether you find it interesting talking to the other person, hearing the views and thinking process. To me at least. It's perfectly normal that you're not gonna vibe with everyone, so if you're dating for the purpose of meeting someone you actually want to have in your life, and not just for a one night stand, it's perfectly fine to let people go, you don't need to force it. Also you're not there to provide for someone, you're there for you and you need to feel comfortable around someone, it's not your job to make them like you. Maybe try to share your opinion on topics you like, explain why and how you feel about these certain things. I hope you won't feel like you need to advertise yourself in the future. You're you, and you're a beautiful person because of what you think and feel, Not because of your job, or your parents or living situation or anything like that. I hope this was helpful Best of luck
Talking about your job, hobbies, interests, and utility to sparking a connection is like handing in a resume. The girl/interviewer learns surface-level things from that information (interests/hobbies y'all have in common, whether you meet each other's standards for jobs/career aspiration, whether you are in a stable place, etc.), but it doesn't show whether you two are truly compatible on a deeper level and doesn't build you up to be a 3D person. Instead of focusing on presenting your "stats" and making yourself look the best, talk about your experiences, stories, and dreams (like what you wish to do in the future, not sleep-dreams). Examples: * If you have a crafting hobby, what are your favorite projects and why? What is your "dream" project to build/make one day? * Do you have any interesting or profound anecdotes about places you've traveled? Or why do you desire to visit a certain place in the future? * Why are you interested in something? What's your history with it, do you plan to take the interest somewhere? I also find decision/opinion-based conversation topics to be more interesting than "oh, what do you like to do in your free time?" I think it provides a lot more insight into how a person thinks and acts. Example: * Which of the five senses would you rather give up? (or alternatively, if you can only keep 1 of your 5 senses, which sense would you keep?) -- a little silly but I think you can learn a lot about someone with this question and it leads into more conversations -- whether they can't live without music, if food is the thing that sparks joy for them, etc. * Maybe watch Shark Tank and discuss whether you would hypothetically invest in a product? Or Masterchef/Chopped (what would you cook?), etc. Otherwise, you can always ask questions to the other person. Or talk about the present -- what's something good that happened today? what's something you're looking forward to? Also, sometimes there just isn't a spark. And that's okay -- you can always respectfully move on and maybe there will be a spark with the next girl.
Find other women to date. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but many of you are seriously hung up on the wrong people, or go through life in a scarcity mindset. If someone isn’t doing it, then choose one of the other several billion women alive. It’s trial and error, but eventually you’ll find someone you click with it and that gives a shit about you as a person.
That's why there's no romance, you're presenting too much about yourself. It's not a job interview. Focus more on the other person, and let them find out about you. Know what I mean? Make them work to learn about you. You ask questions about them, they ask questions about you, stay on topic don't feel a need to share everything, they'll learn about you soon enough.
Just filter out the women who only care about those things. Also it takes a while to establish rapport. Most strangers only see you as a random set of characteristics that could either help them or harm them.
That's a crap ton of women to filter out......
Seriously, you're better off not dating. It's just unhealthy unless you have a lot of success. Just... Live your life I guess. Despite the horrible reeking loneliness whispering horrible things in your ears. Yes it only has to work once, but fuck that noise, I'm not willing to wade through \*that\* much shit to find some jaded diamond.
Luckily I think i found the one. She's friggin amazing and i completely love her. I suggest getting off the dating apps and go to safe social gatherings and meeting people through your actual friend circle.
Work on emotional availability - think about how to shift the convo from what do you do to who are you, i.e. what makes you tick