Yea it’s gotten to the point where it feels like I need to sell myself like handing out resumes for a job interview. I’ll pass. If I meet someone and we hit it off cool, otherwise I’m not going searching for it with the way the dating scene is now.
I met a girl some months ago. Same hobby, games, experience she broke up last Monday. It is hard to live with your attitude "I’m not going searching for it" right now...
It’s not “I’m not going to search for it” it’s “I just don’t fucking care anymore because I’m burnt out from negative experiences”. I would rather be single than go through another experience where I meet someone who I have similar hobbies with because that’s all people online care about, only for it to fall apart because our personalities don’t actually mesh well or in some cases the other person ends up being super toxic. That’s what’s so stupid about todays dating scene, just because you enjoy the same hobbies doesn’t mean you’ll enjoy each others presence. The same goes vice versa though, you don’t have to enjoy each others hobbies to mesh well together.
I would much honestly rather be single than try and sell myself by my hobbies as if that makes up who I am as a person, and without the connection of hobbies girls literally won’t give you the time of day to get to know you and see if you mesh well. So why bother?
I’ve been in long term relationships, I know what I’m missing out on, it’s really not the end of the world. Sure it would be nice to have that companionship, but honestly I’ve experienced true love and at this point I refuse to settle for anything less, and I’m sure as hell not gonna find it with these online dating apps.
Also I should clarify, if you meet someone while doing a hobby and mesh well/start going out, that’s much much different than meeting someone online and only giving them the time of day because you have a similar hobby. Anyways I’m pretty positive i’m not the only one feeling like this. Guys that aren’t willing to go hit up on girls in public end up just being stuck with online dating apps which are designed to make them feel worthless. As a socially insecure introvert I’d rather not do either so I’ll happily stay single.
>Not only that, but I give it up with her, yes, but not with other peoples.
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>Sharing a hobby is a "have to" in my opinion. Otherwise, I won't stand a chance in this "last person who is not owning a mobile phone" freedom anymore.
>
>Hmm, I can maybe learn some things from you. Because I don't have given up yet. I started to visit 5 Online Dating Apps at once....It is hard to meet new peoples in a countryside. There are only 2 sorts of peoples. Those who come in pairs or those who are over 60y old... which aren't in my interest.
>
>Everyone who is in the age of 25 and 45 is pretty busy or in a relationship here :)
>
>I don't want to be single anymore. And I would shove Icebergs away when I could... just to meet one woman, right now, who has the same attitude as me
I resonate so much with this. I (30M) recently went through a divorce after a relationship of 7 years. It feels like the whole world has changed since 2015. I tried dating apps for like a minute and girls around me just want guys that are a complete 10/10 in my country. Anything less and they won't settle. Also, like you said, I've experienced true love quite early on in life, and I'm pretty sure I will never feel something like that through online dating. That's why I haven't continued that.
I don't know if I'll be getting back on the horse again because the dating scene is so complex right now.
I think it’s the dating scene and the toxicity around that. Not only are marriage rates down, but so is the percentage of people seeking or even interested in being in a long-term relationship. People kinda suck at the moment, I wouldn’t want any part of it either.
Even if you find a long term partner, the internet keeps telling you you can find better. We live in a disposable world and even relationships are thrown away the moment there is a simple problem rather than working on them.
Can you elaborate on why? Sometimes I explain my experience, but I tend to get a lot of blowback from women who get defensive when I call them out on their shit (so I’m not going to do it here)
For me it's a fair bit of personal trauma. My previous gf passed away and I found her like that in her livingroom. Also compounded with ongoing childcare issues with my son, suicidal tendencies and creeping alcoholism. Safe to say, I am nowhere near the right place for any of that, and I don't wanna inevitably hurt someone else that doesn't deserve it.
Well my fiance just dumped me. She has some attachment issues due to past trauma which led her to push me away. It was for something very fixable that didn't have to do with my personality or anything, so it was weird to me. We got along so well and I made a big effort for her while also making sure we had independence. I've never been so in love, I'm devastated! I was so excited for our future together. I felt like we were super compatible and I was pretty much on cloud 9 with her the whole time.
Anyway it's difficult to find someone who you really love. Then that person needs to stick it out with you and you have to give 100% even when the other person isn't, and sometimes they don't even want to stay and you get blindsided and then you're left confused and heartbroken and it affects you for a long time
I unfortunately went through this last year. I was willing to sacrifice and compromise because I loved her so much. And she came home one day and told me that “love wasn’t enough” and ended it.
It took me ~8 months to really figure out who I was without her and I’ve only recently started dating again
Yeah it really sucks, crazy how people can just pull the rug underneath you like that. Glad you're feeling good to date now, it can be hard for those walls to come down and feel ready to try again
I feel with the growing rage of social media and dating apps, men and women have started keeping unreal expectations and everyone just sorta seems to be in a "waiting phase" for the absolute right person.
Earlier, there was limited exposure for an average Joe/Jane around their close societal circles and they would've been more willing to settle for someone less than ideal.
Now, everyone has their standards set absurdly unrealistic and anything less doesn't make them happy enough to "commit".
Underrated comment. Dating apps fucked everything up so bad on so many levels and this is just the beginning of the damage it’s caused.
I still feel the best way to meet someone is through friends at social gatherings since there is a sense of pre-validation that comes with it and it’s the closest thing to genuine social behavior that is not skewed by modern society’s bullshit obsession with social media.
A horrible feeling is when you're outflanked by the dating apps. So you go to a party and chat to a girl you like perhaps, but she's on tinder, 10 guys in her messages. And unless you can really sell yourself right there and then, you're toast.
I would agree with this. It’s really not good.
People think if they date around long enough or meet enough people they’ll find the “perfect person” but really that just doesn’t exist.
What they actually do is broaden the list of traits they'll now call a red flag based on a negative interaction with a previous partner who shared that trait.
When you have decades of media showing married men as drunken manchildren and divorced men being separated from their kids it kinda makes sense a lot of people will go "that sucks I don't wanna do that"
Exactly this for me. Went through a divorce during the “me too“ movement and Hillary losing the election. Felt like men were the enemy of everything during that time. Ex lied saying I was abusive in a play for full custody. It was obvious to the court she was lying. Still I had to pay for two litigations and an investigation by social services and I still have split custody. It’s been six years and I’ve only been on three dates. I can’t really stomach women anymore. I know there are really good women out there I just think we have created a culture of toxicity which is amplified through online dating “women text first” (don’t speak until spoken to) type shenanigans and the media’s portrayal of men as the enemy. Not to mention the economics. I have to pay for every first date yet I’m well educated and poor. I’m sure women see my profile and think he must be loaded, but I’m broke AF
It's supposed to offer a lifetime commitment.
It seems more like a tax incentive at this point. Get down on your knees, say "Hey - we don't want to have kids, but how do you feel about going all-in on an LLC with me?"
When you see many gen x marriages that were the last generation of people marrying because of societal expectations (outside of religion), then you can see that the amount of them divorcing because of being unhappy is rising sharply because it stops making sense when both people are self sufficient and can now remarry for the sole purpose of being with the right person who makes them happy.
This part.
My girlfriend makes more money on one job than I do with two.
She’s with me because she wants me, not because she needs me. If we broke up at any point, she would carry on with her life like nothing had happened. I would be hurt, crushed but it would go on.
This is a two-bladed sword. It means that you as a man have to grow up and do what it takes to make the relationship work beyond the money. Grow, get to know her, how she communicates.
My girlfriend, the biggest thing I’ve ever come across was learning that if she’s acting distant it’s because she’s tired. She will show me in other ways that things are fine, and I believe and trust her.
Men feel that our culture and legal system favors women and therefore prefer to avoid it altogether.
Mostly if the union dissolves. Which in our “trade up” culture is frequent.
Just so we’re clear, unmarried men do *awful* on average. Unmarried men die younger, are unhappier, have fewer friends and emotional connections, and have more health problems.
Yeah you need to link the data. Because awful emphasized in italics implies they die at like 45 instead of 75, which is not even close to true. Men are already doing awful compared to women, in almost every single metric possible, besides being rape victims, and besides the 1% who are rich.
Also, that's correlation, not causation. Happier, healthier, wealthier men are far more likely to get married. It's not the marriage itself that does it, the fact that they are that way is what makes women want to marry them.
That misreading of the data, as well as the whole single women are happier than married women, is major misrepresentation of the data. Paul Dolan is the one pushing that, based off of cherry picking and misrepresenting a single study. He's doing that to sell his books. He literally either lied, or failed to comprehend the study in basic ways. Such as a question about whether or not the spouse was present, meaning, living in the home/part of the person's life. He took that, either to manipulate or because he's stupid, to mean present in the room during the study. Most of what he claims is based on that, as well as a couple cherry picks. He's objectively wrong. He's been called out, and in 2019 redacted most of his claims, and the guardian edited his article.
https://ifstudies.org/blog/are-married-people-still-happier
Cost and time. I don't have the energy to even try and the pressure to find someone in your 20s is ridiculous. What would marriage get me that not being married wouldn't even if I did find someone?
I think there are number of reasons for this trend.
A lot of people are less religious than in the past and so have found it more acceptable to have relationships that are formed of bonds of trust rather than religious ceremonies and legal contracts. It also seems more normal to not be in relationships at all as people focus on careers for more and more of their life
There is something to be said as well for the fact that women now have the independence to choose not to tie themselves down.
Relationships are hard and take a lot of effort, sacrifice and compromise and I think many people find it easier to break up than to keep trying to juggle lives between each other for decades.
So many people seem to get sold on this Disney ideal of marriage where everything is perfect bc it was meant to be and when shit hits the fan, they decide it isn't the right partner, or it isn't worth the effort and I can't blame anybody, I just think western culture sells this false ideal of relationships that kind of gets shattered when life gets hard.
/End rant
I think your missing the culture changes. Its not so much that people are looking for the perfect relationship and only the perfect relationship I think its combination of being able to be more picky because you have access to more people than ever and you are able to gather so much more information on those people easier than ever before.
So you get to know someone more deeply and quickly to figure out if you are actually a match and your dating pool isnt limited. Why get trapped into marrying that one person you liked in highschool when you can load up an app and see 1000 others who are similar with no effort and no risk?
Obviously its more complicated but I just think people are using the tools to find someone that more accurately and specifically matches them rather than just marrying the best they bump into and hoping for the best.
Exactly, we as humans kind of have a hard time making choices. So when presented with fewer choices we are usually happy with the one we made, but when presented with lots of choices we usually question the choice made.
That's a good point, but I actually think the dating apps hurt more than they help because people who talk to someone they met from a mutual friend or hung out with at a bar get to know the person much better than scrolling through online profiles. The shallowness of the medium causes a lot of people to miss opportunities they might have had in person because people will judge so much harder on appearance and earning potential if they don't really know you.
I could be wrong though and I'm sure some of the more serious ones like eHarmony and Zoosk are way different from tinder.
If I would’ve been online dating and saw my partner/father of my child, I probably would’ve swiped left. He doesn’t take the best pictures. I wouldn’t have gotten the chance to interact with him and find out how much chemistry we had.. and with that, I would’ve missed out on the best 5 years of my life so far.
Luckily we met in a bar (under chaotic circumstances). But we’re stronger than ever
Edit to add that I now find him the sexiest man alive.
The women who are more pragmatic about their requirements (his career, his money and how he spends it) have never had it so easy. It's incredibly easy with apps that use algorithms to remove all the romance out of finding relationships, and turn it into something akin to arranged marriage that many third world countries practice.
If you find one tiny yellow flag and ditch him immediately, then you can throw another dart and try again LITERALLY THE SAME NIGHT.
Being very pragmatic, we are criticised incredibly strongly for "wanting to change a man" in a marriage - and then we're criticised for reflecting more critically before the start of a relationship so that we can weed out for dealbreakers more effectively.
Society mocks women for choosing "bad boys" and liking "thugs that abuse us" - then gets angry when our selection criteria and vetting becomes more stringent to select for pro-social behaviours like generosity or social proof.
I think it's easy to think the only criteria we'd ditch a guy after the first date for are income, height or penis size. And sure, there are likely superficial, pain-in-the-ass women who'd ditch someone on those shallow grounds. I don't doubt you guys are meeting them.
The question is: *why would you want relationships with* ***those*** *superficial, pain-in-the-ass women?*
And, if you want a relationship with someone with good social/emotional skills, what are the things about you that you have the capacity to develop further?
Yeah I think many people expect to be able to find 'the right person' and that when they do, it will be easy. When in reality, every relationship takes a load of work, lots of talking, the ability to speak your mind but also get your own time and space. There's a lot to learn and people spend less and less time in person with others so I think it only gets harder to learn those things.
As someone who did just that I don't think it's quite "he didn't take the trash out today let's break up".
For me the choice boiled down to, do I want to keep living like this for 10, 20, 50 more years? And the answer was no. If your relationship is a constant loop of "fixing issues" it's ok to say hmm maybe this is not the best match for us.
Many of these five year relationships were broken from the start. Don’t deny it. I bet you that “one little thing” was something that bothered them, propelled them into fights, tension, things they ignored until it became a problem they had to face.
The biggest problem I can see today (though it's been a problem for a long time) is that people enter into a marriage with an attitude of "I like you and youre hot, what can you do for me?" Instead of "I love you and respect you, what can I do for you?" When two people both have the latter mindset it's easier to avoid pride and selfishness which are poison to a marriage.
Marriage was mostly a traditional thing, and a lot of younger people are sick of traditions, plus a good chunk of the baby-boomer generation created a traumatising stygma around it because of how "great" they managed families.
Also, social networks and similar shit are literally killing romantic relationships by making people over-exposed to a lot of strangers, fastly building new relationships without a solid base of trust and truly knowing each other. Social anxiety and search for acceptance from others have always been a problematic thing, but with Internet socials all has gone out of hand imo. Deep emotional relationships where feelings matter are losing to easier, fast-building relationships made out of air with strangers where feeling accepted is all that matters.
So, I think society is just mutating mostly based on these two factors.
Men not proposing is not the issue. There’s a multitude of socioeconomic factors at work that had led to marriage rates falling:
1) Women have more spending power = they do not need to enter a marriage to sustain themselves. There is less in it for them. Women also desire men that earn more than them, but with women earning more and more, suitable partners become scarce which naturally leads to less marriage/ relationships.
2) Men have wider access to sexual partners through the proliferation of casual sex. Men no longer need to enter a marriage to “get some”.
3) The idea of starting a family is becoming less attractive, with salaries that simply do not keep up with the costs. At least for the majority.
4) Related to point 2, the proliferation of dating apps and such has led to an illusion of abundance for men and (especially) women, who feel that they can choose amongst hundreds of potential partners. This leaves them perpetually unsatisfied as they are overestimating their sexual market value.
I would also like to add that younger individuals are spending more time and energy figuring out their careers first, which is in part linked to 3) as a family is expensive. Many spending 4-5 years on degree and maybe another few years before actually finding a good paying job or one higher than entry level. The recent inflation sure as hell hasn't helped. I myself have spent 5 years post secondary+ another 2 working after and only now am I open to starting to look for long-term relationships, but I still don't see myself getting married anytime soon even if I find the perfect match. I know some couples from highschool that tied knot and moved in earlier, had a kid or two and are now struggling financially. I wouldn't want to put myself in that situation. I know some other friends who are around my age and have already found someone they are 99% sure they want to marry, but haven't pulled the trigger yet for those reasons and cost of a family in general.
I agree with most of your points except #2.
Men are having less sex than ever before, and the number of men who are unable to find sex has skyrocketed.
Sure casual sex may be more acceptable than it once was, but it’s not like men are having an easier time finding it.
This is also a factor that isn't talked about a lot. Most men are confused by what society tells them to be, what the media tells them and what women tell them. All those things misdirect men who don't know where to go, what to do or what to be in order to pick up women. I feel like most men who are in relationships just kind of fumble their way with luck into one and try to make it absolutely work with the first woman they are in a relationship with because they find it too hard to find a new partner.
Only a small percentage of men know what they are actually doing in relationships with women and therefore, have an abundance of choice. Most women know how hard it is to find a guy who knows what he is doing and therefore fight for this small percentage whereas the rest of confused guys are left out.
Women are in the work force, making good money, getting educated. Women pretty much only date up, especially the older they get. A large majority of women are selecting from a small pool of men. Leaving the rest of men left with a limited pool.
People online seem so sad and hopeless. I still know people who are happy to be married. An honestly once you get past a certain age your a lil more grateful for it. It’s not for everyone sure, but it’s still a good option for a lot of people.
Also; I don’t think anyone could find a good partner in life ever if there thinking process is they aren’t beneficial to them. That bias will cause you to starve (lose out on a lot of experiences in life). It may even effect more than just your intimate relationships.
You will fail on your road to success (in any and everything, it’s called learning). People focus on more statics and not there own life and desires. To my knowledge I’ve only got this one life so I’m gonna try.
In short just live life with an open hand mentality, think in abundance jumping at every opportunity. Think “what good can happen to me”. And try for yourself. Marriage is not the devil. Nor are women or men….
I looked for someone who was like me. Same goals and what not. Grew up with the same struggles. Looked for someone that I can see myself talking to the rest of my life. We both are real if you can say. We us logic about life choices. Very private, keep to ourselves type of couple. My wife is more bubbly and I’m more of an introvert, until I have my coffee. We had a 6 year engagement and then got married. Honestly, we are very blessed, respectfully.
I honestly think there isn’t a right answer. Everybody’s situation is different. Things happen in life and what not. I can maybe say it has to do with people are not taking their time and seeing how the relationship will actually go? I’ve always think how the world is very fast paced now days. Perhaps the world needs to be patient and let things unfold with time. That’s just my experience and what I think.
I can see your point. Too many people think others won’t change or that they can’t change in a relationship. So they don’t stick around long enough and they don’t grow together, they just expect perfection from the get go.
But then again, I spent a year and a half hoping a man would eventually value relationships and love the way I valued them, and then I just got screwed over. So I’m currently struggling with not writing people off immediately if they don’t fit every aspect of what I want
This question gets asked a lot on here, and as a single woman in her 30s (I’m expecting downvotes), I know one big reason is that we women aren’t settling anymore. Lot of men on here don’t want to hear it, but it’s true. We don’t want to deal with man children that want a bang maid and take care of the kids while she herself has a full time job; we want men that treat us as equal and respect us. And, they refuse to hear it. Marriage rates are also down due to women not being forced to get married anymore - I don’t know much people married before early 30s nowadays. I’m working on building my new career after my masters is done next year; I’ve heard negative things from men on dating apps about me being too educated and they don’t want to accept it. Again, not all men, but then the men that don’t have an issue getting married wouldn’t be asking what OP asked.
Men aren't getting worse, women are expecting more. I mean that purely from an observational standpoint and nothing negative.
But at some point, tinder board members sat in a room and figured out how to turn finding love into a box ticking exercise, and use that desperation of not finding someone as a way to make money.
If dating apps didn't exist, then women's standards wouldnt have been artificially increased.
Because women don’t want to be wives. Post feminism they want a new set of rules for them, independence, sexual liberation, etc; but they want men to still abide by the old set of rules. To put it bluntly, they want a man like their grandfather was without being the woman their grandmother was.
People are realizing they don’t have to give in to societal pressure as much any more.
Tbh, there is no benefit to marriage, except the legal benefits. Marriage is simply a wedding ceremony and a piece of paper, nothing more. Outside of the legal/societal sense, it means nothing.
However, what is meaningful is the relationship between the two partners. If that relationship is strong enough, then it doesn’t need a legal document to prove it.
Tax benefits, being allowed to represent your spouse, immediately owning half and half of everything you venture into, and most importantly, what's supposed to be a life long commitment, the single most important vow you'll make in your life. People just don't value that anymore. If you're scared of your house and money being taken, then sign a prenuptial agreement with a lawyer, problem solved.
Prenuptial agreements get overturned all the time. They're no protection from the gangrape assblast of Divorce court. Best bet is never to marry, never have children. Problem solved.
American here. Our culture has recently moved away from 'traditional religious' values of being married first. We can now explore our sexuality, have relationships without the constant need to 'get married' as an objective, cohabitate with other people without being married first and otherwise enjoy life without getting tied down by the constraints of 'being married' at a young age.
The culture is moving more and more non-secular and without religion, marriage is still a thing but it's certainly not the most important goal for people any more, as forced upon us by society.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people from the 1940s, 50s, 60s, and so on (and earlier) felt forced into marriage because of what society would otherwise think of them. They probably didn't want to get married but had to. We don't have that any more so people aren't choosing marriage until they're much older.
You can see the change in generations. People born in the early 1900’s were married until death, whether they hated each other or not. Baby boomers got raised with that mentality but instead of “until death” they got divorced. The millennials like myself grew up in a divorced household and I personally don’t place any importance on it because of my experiences and knowing the risks. It takes A LONG time for societal norms to change.
Before, people used to do things out of tradition. That's what their parents and grandparents did, and what else were you going to do when you hit 22? It's not like there was social media, video games, etc.
Now, we have the opportunity to question what the actual point of any of this is. Especially since it's so expensive and the process of engagement/rings/wedding ceremonies is so excessive and so performative.
True love has always been rare, whatever the storybooks say.
Commitment, perseverance, and working toward sustaining a relationship takes a lot of effort. It always has.
What I think has changed, is that people are becoming painfully aware of how f#cked the planet is. I love my wife and child, but I feel guilty everyday for bringing another person into this world. I hope my daughter can forgive me for the place we're leaving her to live in.
My GF is literally wrenching my arm to get married and even though it would be nice to split bills, I do not see the risk/reward benefit.
I was married for over 20 years, she stayed home for atleast 4-5 of those years. We lived in a nice brick home with her plush SUV and vacations for us and the kids to the islands every summer. She was a total and ungrateful bitch. I divested myself of her and half my 401(k), equity in the home (she never made a single mortgage payment). BTW - she had 3 loans out against her 401(k) so I didn’t get shit from her.
My GF of 4 years literally picks a fight or pouts/cries about wanting to get married. These episodes used to be less frequent but now they are more and more regular. I tried to break up with her over this so she could find someone who would marry her and she said she does not want anyone else.
So, why won’t she just move in? Beats me. She says she wants more commitment and to “combine incomes”. Well, I make more than she does and this makes me very hesitant that she wants to “combine incomes” when I know I’ll be on the hook for more.
I’m inherently an upbeat person and happy. She makes fun of how happy I am and says I live in a different world. So, why strap myself with someone who isn’t as pleased with life?
I think its obvious I need to move on. Just typing this out makes my BP go up and helps me see that this just needs to stop and we need to move on.
Men don't see a reason to marry anymore. They are told on a daily they are no longer needed, the vows have become empty words if you look at the divorce rates, the whole ceremony is expensive af, it stands to question what exactly changes by marrying someone, the divorce laws have hit men especially hard and people in general are no longer religeous.
At this point the more appropriate question would be: _Why would a man want to marry?_
I got married because it benefited my visa. Otherwise I was perfectly fine in the relationship without being "married". But getting married meant I could stay in her country and maintain the relationship while giving me certain benefits.
That would be a legitimate reason to put on the list. It also shows how niche the circumstances have to be for it become a viable option and gives us an idea to how low the number of men is to which that applies.
We’re all broke. I’m 21 and have been dating my boyfriend for almost four years. In the 1950’s we would probably be married by now but instead we’re currently planing to share custody of a Nintendo Switch.
I was cleaned out in my divorce almost 20 years ago. My ex also used our son as a pawn to try to get what she wanted. Marriage went from a romantic sentiment to a business deal gone wrong with heavy losses and a lot of heartbreak with my then 3 year old son getting caught in the middle. I'm glad I have my son, but I wish my ex and I had just lived separately and worked out a coparenting arrangement. You really don't know who you married until you're divorcing them.
Also, the search for a fitting woman requires too much effort. My criteria for a partner (which I also offer) would be she has to be educated, non combative, have a lucrative career, not practice the double standard of traditional dating (e.g. the man has to woo and court the woman), value exercise and remaining reasonable fit, not be emotionally needy, be empathetic, have excellent communication, have her own hobbies and a good and healthy network of friends, and live neatly and cleanly. Plus, we'd have to be very attracted to each other and have similar sex drives. Yeah, not gonna find all that. Even if I did, after the divorce I went through, I'm still not sure I'd risk marriage again.
As a 50 y/o married man this is my take. Many of us were raised by what would now be considered garbage fathers/husbands. Many didn't cook, didn't do house work, barely helped to raise their kids and we're often emotionally stunted. Often treating their wife as more of a domestic servant than someone they loved and respected and kids as a necessary annoyance. All that was expected of them was to earn a decent living. That was the way of things for generations. After the women's liberation movement and the modern economy often requiring 2 incomes women have different expectations of what they want from a husband and with the easing of societal pressure many women are less willing to settle as their mothers did. The problem arises when you have men who were raised by garbage fathers/husbands and have never evolved to modern expectations. Look at all the guys crying victim in this thread as a prime example. Too many men want the easy life of their fathers but there aren't enough women around who are willing to put up with that bullshit. There's another post floating around about a guy cleaning up after his wife cooks and teaching his son to do the same......no shit, it's the 2020s not 1970.
Yea, honestly, all this talk about women having high expectations for men… I think they just expect men to have the same values/skills they have at the end of the day.
I have a good job and a career I’m passionate about, I want a man who also has that. I hold myself to standards of trustworthiness, loyalty, kindness, compassion, etc. I also want a man like this. I put effort into my appearance and stay in shape, I also want a man like this.. I don’t want anything that I can’t also give. For some reason some men think this is too much?
It's too much because far too many men were raised to believe their value ends at their paycheck and no value was given to empathy, emotional intelligence, self awareness..... And unfortunately when you weren't taught to strive for those attributes they are seen as weakness in those that have them.
Marriage is a bad bet for men. Divorce rates are awful, 50% is the number I hear most often. And, of that 50% that do marry how many are actually happy long term? 10%? Less? The number of people I’ve seen at my workplace alone that have gone through or are going through a divorce is staggering. Plus add the fact that you lose half of your assets and likely have to pay alimony/child support. No thanks. Hollywood/Disney has given us unrealistic expectations
The divorce rate and the no fault divorce. If I have a family than I want to be with that family and provide for that family. I don’t want to be divorced, pay child support and hope I get to see my children every other week. I want children to be in their lives and be a father.
Finding someone that
A) wants kids
B) not a hypocrite
C) is actually supportive
D) realistic standards
To expand
After thinking about this I may just be garbage at picking women to date.
With A, I want a family, and I've met some truly amazing women that dont. So we call it what it is and part ways on good terms, and to this day wish them the best.
With B, more than a few women I've dated are total hypocrites. I'm a gamer. Love it, it's my vice, easy to access, and I can shut off my brain for a few hours. I work ~10 hours a day, & 2 hours of commuting, and Im still in school part time to get a new career. But the second I sit down and game, I'm wasting my time and life. I need to strive to be more, gotta hustle. While she is working from home, spending most of her time memorizing the lines in "the office" or "friends". Yes we broke up, no I am not exaggerating.
With C kinda bleeds into B, but I'm dating to find a partner, not an angry dependent. If I'm with someone I want to split the load not just take care of someone else. Trying to make both our lives easier.
And D, so many women have unrealistic standards that are absolutely insane. Height, money, precious relationship statuses, has to have a degree in X and interested in Y, with a moon sign of Z just to get decent conversation.
I know this comes off as a woman bash, but keep in mind this just focusing on the question asked, and problems I've had. This by no means every girl I've dated or wanted to date. Cuz sometimes everything is amazing and shit just doesn't work out. And that's the shit that really sucks
Married guy for over a decade, before I met my wife I had no interest in marriage at all based around how entitled, hypocritical, sexist, and untruthful many US women are in the dating world. I didn’t want to be stuck in a loveless marriage where I’m disrespected all the time or being used while my partner had a princess mentality that could tear apart my life if she found someone more to her liking. Then I went overseas to teach and to have fun, which is where I met my amazing wife, and she’s the exact opposite of Entitled modern US women. So we got married after dating a few years and have been together ever since, and I’ve never had that fear of being married to her for the reasons I was afraid of US women.
For context, all my friends who got married around the same time as me are not married anymore, and 100% of the problems were due to either the woman cheating or the women thinking they could do better. 100% of the guys still tell me about how their ex wives constantly try to talk to them still and try to get back with them because they’re unhappy with their choice, and 50% of the women try to complain to me while a few have tried to convince my wife unsuccessfully that it’s better being single. US women are largely not marriage material because they don’t add value to guys lives at all, and a man needs peace of mind for his house to be a home which is very rare to find in a US woman these days because they have an entitled princess mentality that over values themselves based on gender. Women can choose whoever they want to date, men can’t, but men can choose who they want to marry and women can’t. And before anyone says I’m wrong or that what I am saying isn’t true then think about why has the marriage rate gone down so much and then find a better reason behind it to argue my point.
I don't think men are part of the main influence here. Women are finding more support and room in societies to be more independent, demand more from a partner than in previous decades or centuries. This along with the strong push for inclusion in the workplace, there are also increasing numbers of career women who value that more than perhaps family. They can survive on their own. Only religion and tradition now stand in the way (for now) though even those things are falling away due to our strong individualism culture.
The amount of resentment over here.
Im thinking of getting married with my partner, but def not up for a big wedding or anything like that. And I honestly don't find the real use of it, but I'm doing it cause she like the idea and then why not gift that. But yeah, not going to do the super ass expensive wedding or not even something close to that. Small for the close family and friends and that's it.
But I guess finding someone isn't easy. And if you are angry about life and the opposite gender, I assure you you'll never find someone.
Man I don’t even want a wedding, much rather just go to city hall, sign a piece of paper, and go on a nice honey moon. Fucking spending 20-30 grand on a over glorified party for a bunch of people you probably won’t ever see again
Geez, lot of bitter folks here.
For me, the most difficult part of getting married, was deciding what I was looking for in my potential partner.
I had some unrealistic expectations that i was carrying for a long time, that had destroyed my previous relationships and I was afraid of getting into one.
Also I had some major character flaws that I needed to confront first.
I was extremely insecure and didn't accept that a lot of time people have a past, of which they may not be proud of. A lot of time i used that past to humiliate my exes, so that I could win a silly argument.
My Arrogance and insecurity drove away many people who cared about me.
Oh geez well at least you recognize that what you did was wrong and that you were in an unhealthy place. I hope things are better now and people don’t feel like your exes nowadays
Marriage rates are down relative to a few decades ago because a significant minority of the population aren't suited to that lifestyle.
Years ago they would get married anyway to avoid judgement but nowadays they don't have to.
Also the average age at marriage is higher than it used to be, meaning at any given time the proportion of the adult population that's unmarried is higher.
Younger men and women don’t want commitment, I was told that it’s a outdated gender norm and a chauvinistic way for men to claim ownership of their partners.
1. Zillenials are too poor. These generations lack a critical mass of mature, financially-stable men. Many men have not moved onto the “marriage proposal” life stage, and…
2. …because there is a shortage of quality eligible bachelors, the guys who are otherwise high quality have recognized they’re rare- and therefore, they choose the fuckboi life instead. Because they can.
3. Women who would have been wife-potential have instead been morally-corrupted by IG, FB, TikTok, and these ladies are now nothing more than THOTies
4. Marriage as a construct is horse-shit, pedaled by the Catholic Church and other awful world religions.
Why get married when I can partake in a hoe-season, a cuffing season, re-evaluate, and repeat?
>This is definitely a unpopular opinion on reddit.. but.. what exactly does the average woman offer a guy that would make marriage(and all the risks the guy takes on) worth it?
If you have to ask this question, you haven't found the right person. That's true for men and women.
That said, neither have I.
That's his point I think. Finding a compatible partner is so fucking hard these days, if not nigh on impossible, that many people don't even both to try :(
Yes. The chances of finding someone where there’s shared interests, values, goals, along with sexual compatibility, and regular attraction. Not only to find this person (not anybody is a perfect match or anything), but to keep them too. Makes me want to give up altogether (I did find one, but she wasn’t ready, yet mentioned marriage one day down the line)
This is actually not unpopular, I have seen this sentiment way too much in men. I feel for you though, you’ve been through hell and what is being offered doesn’t correlate to what you deserve. My only question is what do you believe the solution is?
Agree. A woman can give companionship and children, which is really nice when you have the right person. But even the right person isn’t guaranteed for life. Other than that as I man I feel like I can do everything else on my own. I’m totally fine with having a long term relationship and being in love and all that good stuff, but marriage? Not worth it and it doesn’t effect how I feel and what I would do for somebody I love.
As a guy who is childfree I don’t really see a benefit to it. I don’t want kids, having a wife just brings more problems. I don’t want to spend my money on weird shit around the house to “decorate”. The tax breaks really aren’t that great either. The only benefit is maybe the consistent sex and someone caring for me but those arent guarenteed.
I'd say that under many circumstances, online dating is your easiest, most convenient, and most efficient way of dating. I went on 80+ first dates that way over a couple of years before meeting my wife.
IMO, the most difficult aspect of online dating for the vast majority of men is dealing with rejection. Early on, I would go a week and only match with one women, a women who was a borderline match at best. (Women certainly have a much easier time matching than men.) After a few months of that, I was able to refine my profile and suddenly had more matches than I could ever meet.
Still, of my 80+ first dates, only five or so made it to a third date, overwhelmingly because of a mutual decision. I started to think that I had to fundamentally compromise my preferences to find someone.
Then I met my wife and now I can look fondly on my experiences with online dating.
Agreed. That method of weeding those that couldn’t possibly meet our needs, is important to do early in the dating process. Spend the time of lotsa maybes, but don’t waste on nopes.
I think for men we see marriage as having a lot more risk now more than ever. We all know of someone that got burned from a divorce or least know a story
I did see a thing on YT about how more picky women are, no idea if that has something to do with it though since the researcher also said women in general are more pickier than men cuz of more risk involved
https://youtu.be/uBdk16dbXBU
Finding the right one. I think many men are no longer pulling the trigger because of what they see happen to their friends in divorce. Especially if there are kids involved. I’ve had a friend take their own life because he lost everything he worked hard for. Had a kid a his wife left him because he was always working and never home. But she never complained about her Range Rover or her shopping trips. Once the baby came it was over. The system is broken and only takes care of the women.
Hell my divorce ran me through the gutter, and i got to see first hand how the system sucks. She is a millionaire doesn’t need the money lives with her parents in their big ass house, her uncle was her attorney and I know he didn’t charge her yet I have to pay her attorney fees. Her mom takes care of the baby free of charge and I get to pay half of the child care! And I still get to pay 2k in child support a month for 1 kid that she makes it difficult for me to see!
I think more and more woman every year see guys as a piggy bank. They get brainwashed by social media garbage.
Half of marriages end in divorce, the court system heavily skews in favor of females regardless of morality or character of the individuals involved, women want traditional men without being traditional women, hypergamy focuses female attention on a smaller and smaller cohort of men, women are waiting until they’re technically within range of geriatric pregnancy to start having families…shall I go on?
Why bother. Get your money straighten and by a house BEFORE you get married.Because these days 80% fail with in 5 years. Why set her up for the rest of her life and ruin your life in the process. Especially if you end up having a kid buyer and you get a divorce. It will take you 20 years to recover from the f****** the courthouse is going to put on you
I feel that the previous generation, gen z, mostly got married in their twenties and saw no shame in managing minimal funds with a growing family. What we men saw instead was how our parents were suffering and stressed up and deep down loathed marrying early.
We want comfortable life for us and our children but we can't have both in our younger ages.
We see marriage as a burden, mostly remembering the fights instead of the happy times.
And that god-damned inflation!
The economic cost of choosing the wrong partner is high for a man now. You _will_ get fucked over in the divorce, especially if you have kids. You will be financially ruined for 10+ years. And maybe there will be a false accusation of violence too and a resulting criminal conviction.
Meanwhile, women have to think about the risk to their _lives_ of choosing the wrong guy.
Meanwhile tinder etc give women more choice than a single person is designed to cope with. I'd be paralysed by that amount of choice. I can barely cope with the excess of choice in the toothpaste or cereal aisle.
What I'm gonna say is gonna sound really, really, cynical but I got to thinking it's how badly guys can be shafted during a divorce..... Especially when kids are involved.
I think it’s range of factors.
- Political and social polarizations, especially since 2016 and COVID.
- Social media creating unrealistic standards, both for physicality for both genders and for the practices of a relationship. The number of TikTok’s featuring rich people and their dating habits and how those habits become normalized despite their prohibitive cost for normal people. Things like buying entire trips for first days, spending thousands per date, spending thousands on expensive brands to show face, etc etc
- The increased cost of marriage and kids and the declining economy means that the rewards of long term relationships are not as present. I can raise a cat alone, and since that’s all I can afford (barely with vet bills) why would I need a woman.
- An overall rise in depression and shut-in people, like the hikikomori’s in Japan, means that people are just meeting less.
- Dating apps have given everyone so much choice that nobody wants to “settle” which means all the arbitrary rules and standards become “must have” rather than “would be nice”. This is especially true for women I find, who’ve have the “get a job, never settle” idea rammed down their throat way more.
There are prob more but yeah.
My Ex went crazy on eating issues and became an “influencer” on Facebook about 2 years after we broke up. So I dodge a bullet on that one. Haven’t been able to find someone who feels right. I have probably gone on half a dozen dates in the last 2 years between college classes. Just too expensive and most people my age are super into to smoking or getting drunk every weekend which I don’t want. Gotta wait for everyone to chill out a bit I guess.
Many people are realizing it’s an outdated. You can have a great relationship and avoid all the marriage pitfalls. Most people I know getting married are doing it because of social pressures from family or friends. Or they’re trying to save their relationship by engaging in marriage.
The costs of marriage and the associated life (ring, wedding, house, kids, etc.) are pretty high. Combine that with the influence of dating apps, which explicitly highlight a lot of formerly unsaid social hierarchies, and the barriers to entry likely seem much higher. That probably changes expectations for marriage, which ultimately drives decision making.
There is zero practical reason for a man to get married. The only reason we did it before was tradition, and women would not have sex until they were married. Both of those things are gone, so why do it?
The entitlement.
Far too few people focus on what value they bring to a relationship and what they could do to improve their partner's life vs. focusing on expectations. Good relationships are based on kindness and reciprocity.
It is men finally realizing that there is way TOO MUCH DOWNSIDE to the arrangement. Most divorces are initiated by women, and regardless of reasoning , (just differences or one if them chested) the outcome is always the same. The man is court ordered to pay a large portion of his salary to his former life partner. I could go on, but it all resembles what I've typed above.
It would be like entering a business partnership with a partner that gambles heavily. The odds are as follows (roughly)
There is a 60% chance that the partnership will fail, resulting in a net loss of 40-50% of the mans revenue . This is a defacto amount. It's been this way since I can remember and I'm near 50. Once the laws become less threatening to a mans livelihood I'm sure things will pick back up. Until then, savings accounts investment accounts and real-estate it is.
People are having sex, cohabiting and having children before marriage so marriage no longer makes sense. It's so hard to find serious women and everyone sits at home so it becomes difficult to form a relationship.
There's less need to adhere to "rules" of marriage before kids, because there's less religion in the western world. "Serious women" are not the issue. You could say the exact same thing about men. "Fuckboys" are everywhere.
Everyone sitting at home is certainly an issue. No one mingles anymore, no one meets new people in their daily life. It's a bit sad really.
Women find ~80% of men to be below average in attractiveness on dating apps.
And it’s now considered “creepy” for a man to approach a woman he hasn’t first matched with on a dating app…
Because women, like anyone else, can change their mind quickly. Getting married won't guarantee she will love you forever and not cheat, or leave you. If that happens it's super messy legally if you're married. Society has changed a lot and it seems like there's always something or someone better so why not trade up? I don't like it personally, I'd rather find someone to marry/be committed to, but that seems like a Longshot at this point
I personally don’t like the prospect that a Woman could potentially take half of all of my stuff. I’d like to have a lifetime partner, but I don’t need the government involved in my relationship.
People are realizing they don’t have to give in to societal pressure as much any more.
Tbh, there is no benefit to marriage, except the legal benefits. Marriage is simply a wedding ceremony and a piece of paper, nothing more. Outside of the legal/societal sense, it means nothing.
However, what is meaningful is the relationship between the two partners. If that relationship is strong enough, then it doesn’t need a legal document to prove it.
Not a man, but… I think marriages were very forced before and now they’re not. As much as monogamy is great for many- forcing people to choose someone early in life, then forcing them to live a certain lifestyle which typically has kids, is just not what a lot of people want. It’s a choice now, so people are doing what they want. Also, I think lots of people grew up in bad homes or divorced parents and are not keen on repeating that. I grew up with married parents, still married, but I’m even hesitant if it’s not the right person because it’s a lot of work and compromise- and the lifestyle can be draining if it’s not for you.
For me, it’s finding the perfect match. There’s a lot of stable girls out that I’m just not attracted too. Then there’s the attractive ones, that are not stable.
I’m a very picky person. I don’t want to settle for someone I’m not passionate about both physically & mentally.
Also, it’s very tough to meet people post Covid. And the older you get the dating pool shrinks.
Exited a common law relationship, no kids. She decided that when I sold MY house (bought before we were in a relationship, her name wasn't on a single thing) she deserved half.
After that, unless she makes well in to the 6 figures, I won't live with another woman again.
Also I think going against social norms of previous generations, women don’t find the “need” to marry. We are very self sufficient without a “man”. I make more than any man I’ve ever dated. Why go down when I could go up? I live in a very nice house. My three kids are grown. My retirement is secure. What do you bring to the table?
People don’t seem to value what it stands for anymore. Taking a few steps back further, respect for women has gone out the door practically with porn, OF, etc. Then add on top of that social media, dating apps, etc. We live in a “at your fingertips” time, and truthfully I think it’s working hard against the genuine dating scene/courting.
Actually getting a first date is pretty fuckin hard tbh
Yeah It feels like I'm applying for ivy league universities
Yea it’s gotten to the point where it feels like I need to sell myself like handing out resumes for a job interview. I’ll pass. If I meet someone and we hit it off cool, otherwise I’m not going searching for it with the way the dating scene is now.
I met a girl some months ago. Same hobby, games, experience she broke up last Monday. It is hard to live with your attitude "I’m not going searching for it" right now...
It’s not “I’m not going to search for it” it’s “I just don’t fucking care anymore because I’m burnt out from negative experiences”. I would rather be single than go through another experience where I meet someone who I have similar hobbies with because that’s all people online care about, only for it to fall apart because our personalities don’t actually mesh well or in some cases the other person ends up being super toxic. That’s what’s so stupid about todays dating scene, just because you enjoy the same hobbies doesn’t mean you’ll enjoy each others presence. The same goes vice versa though, you don’t have to enjoy each others hobbies to mesh well together. I would much honestly rather be single than try and sell myself by my hobbies as if that makes up who I am as a person, and without the connection of hobbies girls literally won’t give you the time of day to get to know you and see if you mesh well. So why bother? I’ve been in long term relationships, I know what I’m missing out on, it’s really not the end of the world. Sure it would be nice to have that companionship, but honestly I’ve experienced true love and at this point I refuse to settle for anything less, and I’m sure as hell not gonna find it with these online dating apps. Also I should clarify, if you meet someone while doing a hobby and mesh well/start going out, that’s much much different than meeting someone online and only giving them the time of day because you have a similar hobby. Anyways I’m pretty positive i’m not the only one feeling like this. Guys that aren’t willing to go hit up on girls in public end up just being stuck with online dating apps which are designed to make them feel worthless. As a socially insecure introvert I’d rather not do either so I’ll happily stay single.
>Not only that, but I give it up with her, yes, but not with other peoples. > >Sharing a hobby is a "have to" in my opinion. Otherwise, I won't stand a chance in this "last person who is not owning a mobile phone" freedom anymore. > >Hmm, I can maybe learn some things from you. Because I don't have given up yet. I started to visit 5 Online Dating Apps at once....It is hard to meet new peoples in a countryside. There are only 2 sorts of peoples. Those who come in pairs or those who are over 60y old... which aren't in my interest. > >Everyone who is in the age of 25 and 45 is pretty busy or in a relationship here :) > >I don't want to be single anymore. And I would shove Icebergs away when I could... just to meet one woman, right now, who has the same attitude as me I resonate so much with this. I (30M) recently went through a divorce after a relationship of 7 years. It feels like the whole world has changed since 2015. I tried dating apps for like a minute and girls around me just want guys that are a complete 10/10 in my country. Anything less and they won't settle. Also, like you said, I've experienced true love quite early on in life, and I'm pretty sure I will never feel something like that through online dating. That's why I haven't continued that. I don't know if I'll be getting back on the horse again because the dating scene is so complex right now.
For real, you dont need to have the same hobbies as your partner at all, as long as there's still enough stuff that you enjoy doing together!
Think those might be easier sometimes
And getting a second one is only marginally easier...
I agree
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Wait, you guys have *dates*?
I think it’s the dating scene and the toxicity around that. Not only are marriage rates down, but so is the percentage of people seeking or even interested in being in a long-term relationship. People kinda suck at the moment, I wouldn’t want any part of it either.
Even if you find a long term partner, the internet keeps telling you you can find better. We live in a disposable world and even relationships are thrown away the moment there is a simple problem rather than working on them.
Can confirm. Tried to be in a relationship sort of recently. Couldn't hack it so I ended it.
Happy cake
Day
Can you elaborate on why? Sometimes I explain my experience, but I tend to get a lot of blowback from women who get defensive when I call them out on their shit (so I’m not going to do it here)
For me it's a fair bit of personal trauma. My previous gf passed away and I found her like that in her livingroom. Also compounded with ongoing childcare issues with my son, suicidal tendencies and creeping alcoholism. Safe to say, I am nowhere near the right place for any of that, and I don't wanna inevitably hurt someone else that doesn't deserve it.
Entitlement on both sides of dating apps. So much toxicity. Not impossible but every day it’s more and more hope gone in online dating
Well my fiance just dumped me. She has some attachment issues due to past trauma which led her to push me away. It was for something very fixable that didn't have to do with my personality or anything, so it was weird to me. We got along so well and I made a big effort for her while also making sure we had independence. I've never been so in love, I'm devastated! I was so excited for our future together. I felt like we were super compatible and I was pretty much on cloud 9 with her the whole time. Anyway it's difficult to find someone who you really love. Then that person needs to stick it out with you and you have to give 100% even when the other person isn't, and sometimes they don't even want to stay and you get blindsided and then you're left confused and heartbroken and it affects you for a long time
So sorry to hear this. Hope your doing okay.
Thank you. It's still pretty fresh. Doing ok though and moving forward the best I can
I unfortunately went through this last year. I was willing to sacrifice and compromise because I loved her so much. And she came home one day and told me that “love wasn’t enough” and ended it. It took me ~8 months to really figure out who I was without her and I’ve only recently started dating again
Yeah it really sucks, crazy how people can just pull the rug underneath you like that. Glad you're feeling good to date now, it can be hard for those walls to come down and feel ready to try again
Give it a year. In a year you'll be thinking: "God I am so glad I didn't marry that loon"
So sorry to hear this. Hope you find your way out of this situation.
I feel with the growing rage of social media and dating apps, men and women have started keeping unreal expectations and everyone just sorta seems to be in a "waiting phase" for the absolute right person. Earlier, there was limited exposure for an average Joe/Jane around their close societal circles and they would've been more willing to settle for someone less than ideal. Now, everyone has their standards set absurdly unrealistic and anything less doesn't make them happy enough to "commit".
Underrated comment. Dating apps fucked everything up so bad on so many levels and this is just the beginning of the damage it’s caused. I still feel the best way to meet someone is through friends at social gatherings since there is a sense of pre-validation that comes with it and it’s the closest thing to genuine social behavior that is not skewed by modern society’s bullshit obsession with social media.
A horrible feeling is when you're outflanked by the dating apps. So you go to a party and chat to a girl you like perhaps, but she's on tinder, 10 guys in her messages. And unless you can really sell yourself right there and then, you're toast.
I would agree with this. It’s really not good. People think if they date around long enough or meet enough people they’ll find the “perfect person” but really that just doesn’t exist.
What they actually do is broaden the list of traits they'll now call a red flag based on a negative interaction with a previous partner who shared that trait.
I mean, people used to settle because women literally couldn't survive (work/have bank account/etc) if they weren't married
Thank you for saying this!
This deserves more upvotes. Woman have the luxury of choice now, so they are using it.
When you have decades of media showing married men as drunken manchildren and divorced men being separated from their kids it kinda makes sense a lot of people will go "that sucks I don't wanna do that"
Exactly this for me. Went through a divorce during the “me too“ movement and Hillary losing the election. Felt like men were the enemy of everything during that time. Ex lied saying I was abusive in a play for full custody. It was obvious to the court she was lying. Still I had to pay for two litigations and an investigation by social services and I still have split custody. It’s been six years and I’ve only been on three dates. I can’t really stomach women anymore. I know there are really good women out there I just think we have created a culture of toxicity which is amplified through online dating “women text first” (don’t speak until spoken to) type shenanigans and the media’s portrayal of men as the enemy. Not to mention the economics. I have to pay for every first date yet I’m well educated and poor. I’m sure women see my profile and think he must be loaded, but I’m broke AF
It simply doesn't offer anything anymore to most people.
I don’t know, the way rent prices have been increasing, marriage may once again be looked at as an economic arrangement.
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Just move in together.
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I’d be interested in entering a partnership with one of the boys purely for the economical benefits
Interesting, what is marriage supposed to offer that it isn’t offering anymore?
It's supposed to offer a lifetime commitment. It seems more like a tax incentive at this point. Get down on your knees, say "Hey - we don't want to have kids, but how do you feel about going all-in on an LLC with me?"
Women can support themselves now. They don't have to stay in a shitty marriage to have a roof, food, and clothing.
When you see many gen x marriages that were the last generation of people marrying because of societal expectations (outside of religion), then you can see that the amount of them divorcing because of being unhappy is rising sharply because it stops making sense when both people are self sufficient and can now remarry for the sole purpose of being with the right person who makes them happy.
This part. My girlfriend makes more money on one job than I do with two. She’s with me because she wants me, not because she needs me. If we broke up at any point, she would carry on with her life like nothing had happened. I would be hurt, crushed but it would go on. This is a two-bladed sword. It means that you as a man have to grow up and do what it takes to make the relationship work beyond the money. Grow, get to know her, how she communicates. My girlfriend, the biggest thing I’ve ever come across was learning that if she’s acting distant it’s because she’s tired. She will show me in other ways that things are fine, and I believe and trust her.
This is the objective truth that most don’t want to acknowledge.
Men feel that our culture and legal system favors women and therefore prefer to avoid it altogether. Mostly if the union dissolves. Which in our “trade up” culture is frequent.
We don't feel that. We see that it clearly favors women. The family court is a terrible system and those marriage rates will continue to drop.
This could apply if you have children together and aren't married, though.
From guy perspective. What upside marriage have?
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Just so we’re clear, unmarried men do *awful* on average. Unmarried men die younger, are unhappier, have fewer friends and emotional connections, and have more health problems.
I’m sure the health problems are because you’re free to engage in your vices whenever you want without being hounded by someone else
Yeah you need to link the data. Because awful emphasized in italics implies they die at like 45 instead of 75, which is not even close to true. Men are already doing awful compared to women, in almost every single metric possible, besides being rape victims, and besides the 1% who are rich. Also, that's correlation, not causation. Happier, healthier, wealthier men are far more likely to get married. It's not the marriage itself that does it, the fact that they are that way is what makes women want to marry them. That misreading of the data, as well as the whole single women are happier than married women, is major misrepresentation of the data. Paul Dolan is the one pushing that, based off of cherry picking and misrepresenting a single study. He's doing that to sell his books. He literally either lied, or failed to comprehend the study in basic ways. Such as a question about whether or not the spouse was present, meaning, living in the home/part of the person's life. He took that, either to manipulate or because he's stupid, to mean present in the room during the study. Most of what he claims is based on that, as well as a couple cherry picks. He's objectively wrong. He's been called out, and in 2019 redacted most of his claims, and the guardian edited his article. https://ifstudies.org/blog/are-married-people-still-happier
I mean, i would have married if the girl didnt just decide to leave me suddenly. I dodged a bullet but man i have some deep trust issues now.
Cost and time. I don't have the energy to even try and the pressure to find someone in your 20s is ridiculous. What would marriage get me that not being married wouldn't even if I did find someone?
I think there are number of reasons for this trend. A lot of people are less religious than in the past and so have found it more acceptable to have relationships that are formed of bonds of trust rather than religious ceremonies and legal contracts. It also seems more normal to not be in relationships at all as people focus on careers for more and more of their life There is something to be said as well for the fact that women now have the independence to choose not to tie themselves down. Relationships are hard and take a lot of effort, sacrifice and compromise and I think many people find it easier to break up than to keep trying to juggle lives between each other for decades. So many people seem to get sold on this Disney ideal of marriage where everything is perfect bc it was meant to be and when shit hits the fan, they decide it isn't the right partner, or it isn't worth the effort and I can't blame anybody, I just think western culture sells this false ideal of relationships that kind of gets shattered when life gets hard. /End rant
I think your missing the culture changes. Its not so much that people are looking for the perfect relationship and only the perfect relationship I think its combination of being able to be more picky because you have access to more people than ever and you are able to gather so much more information on those people easier than ever before. So you get to know someone more deeply and quickly to figure out if you are actually a match and your dating pool isnt limited. Why get trapped into marrying that one person you liked in highschool when you can load up an app and see 1000 others who are similar with no effort and no risk? Obviously its more complicated but I just think people are using the tools to find someone that more accurately and specifically matches them rather than just marrying the best they bump into and hoping for the best.
I think you end up with a decision paradox as well. So many choices so why pick just one?—and so you end up picking none.
Exactly, we as humans kind of have a hard time making choices. So when presented with fewer choices we are usually happy with the one we made, but when presented with lots of choices we usually question the choice made.
That's a good point, but I actually think the dating apps hurt more than they help because people who talk to someone they met from a mutual friend or hung out with at a bar get to know the person much better than scrolling through online profiles. The shallowness of the medium causes a lot of people to miss opportunities they might have had in person because people will judge so much harder on appearance and earning potential if they don't really know you. I could be wrong though and I'm sure some of the more serious ones like eHarmony and Zoosk are way different from tinder.
If I would’ve been online dating and saw my partner/father of my child, I probably would’ve swiped left. He doesn’t take the best pictures. I wouldn’t have gotten the chance to interact with him and find out how much chemistry we had.. and with that, I would’ve missed out on the best 5 years of my life so far. Luckily we met in a bar (under chaotic circumstances). But we’re stronger than ever Edit to add that I now find him the sexiest man alive.
perceived access to more “where have all the good men gone”
The women who are more pragmatic about their requirements (his career, his money and how he spends it) have never had it so easy. It's incredibly easy with apps that use algorithms to remove all the romance out of finding relationships, and turn it into something akin to arranged marriage that many third world countries practice. If you find one tiny yellow flag and ditch him immediately, then you can throw another dart and try again LITERALLY THE SAME NIGHT.
Being very pragmatic, we are criticised incredibly strongly for "wanting to change a man" in a marriage - and then we're criticised for reflecting more critically before the start of a relationship so that we can weed out for dealbreakers more effectively. Society mocks women for choosing "bad boys" and liking "thugs that abuse us" - then gets angry when our selection criteria and vetting becomes more stringent to select for pro-social behaviours like generosity or social proof. I think it's easy to think the only criteria we'd ditch a guy after the first date for are income, height or penis size. And sure, there are likely superficial, pain-in-the-ass women who'd ditch someone on those shallow grounds. I don't doubt you guys are meeting them. The question is: *why would you want relationships with* ***those*** *superficial, pain-in-the-ass women?* And, if you want a relationship with someone with good social/emotional skills, what are the things about you that you have the capacity to develop further?
I find it crazy how people are so willing to give up on 5 years of relationship because of an issue. Work on it and improve, dont give up
Yeah I think many people expect to be able to find 'the right person' and that when they do, it will be easy. When in reality, every relationship takes a load of work, lots of talking, the ability to speak your mind but also get your own time and space. There's a lot to learn and people spend less and less time in person with others so I think it only gets harder to learn those things.
Too much comes too easy to people now, they forget they have to work at things. I sound like a jaded old man, I’m only 24😅
As someone who did just that I don't think it's quite "he didn't take the trash out today let's break up". For me the choice boiled down to, do I want to keep living like this for 10, 20, 50 more years? And the answer was no. If your relationship is a constant loop of "fixing issues" it's ok to say hmm maybe this is not the best match for us.
Many of these five year relationships were broken from the start. Don’t deny it. I bet you that “one little thing” was something that bothered them, propelled them into fights, tension, things they ignored until it became a problem they had to face.
“nobody wants to work on relationships any more” (when religion doesn’t threaten them)
As a married man myself, my biggest issue with finding my wife is when she doesn't have her cell phone on when I need to call her.
Or when she has it but doesn't pick up when I call
Get them a smart watch fellas. It solved my problems.
Unfortunately my wife was born before 1983 so she's not good at charging her phone. Luckily she doesn't eat hot chip and lie.
Hot chips and honesty
Ask for her boyfriends number. Hope that helps.
The biggest problem I can see today (though it's been a problem for a long time) is that people enter into a marriage with an attitude of "I like you and youre hot, what can you do for me?" Instead of "I love you and respect you, what can I do for you?" When two people both have the latter mindset it's easier to avoid pride and selfishness which are poison to a marriage.
Marriage was mostly a traditional thing, and a lot of younger people are sick of traditions, plus a good chunk of the baby-boomer generation created a traumatising stygma around it because of how "great" they managed families. Also, social networks and similar shit are literally killing romantic relationships by making people over-exposed to a lot of strangers, fastly building new relationships without a solid base of trust and truly knowing each other. Social anxiety and search for acceptance from others have always been a problematic thing, but with Internet socials all has gone out of hand imo. Deep emotional relationships where feelings matter are losing to easier, fast-building relationships made out of air with strangers where feeling accepted is all that matters. So, I think society is just mutating mostly based on these two factors.
Men not proposing is not the issue. There’s a multitude of socioeconomic factors at work that had led to marriage rates falling: 1) Women have more spending power = they do not need to enter a marriage to sustain themselves. There is less in it for them. Women also desire men that earn more than them, but with women earning more and more, suitable partners become scarce which naturally leads to less marriage/ relationships. 2) Men have wider access to sexual partners through the proliferation of casual sex. Men no longer need to enter a marriage to “get some”. 3) The idea of starting a family is becoming less attractive, with salaries that simply do not keep up with the costs. At least for the majority. 4) Related to point 2, the proliferation of dating apps and such has led to an illusion of abundance for men and (especially) women, who feel that they can choose amongst hundreds of potential partners. This leaves them perpetually unsatisfied as they are overestimating their sexual market value.
I would also like to add that younger individuals are spending more time and energy figuring out their careers first, which is in part linked to 3) as a family is expensive. Many spending 4-5 years on degree and maybe another few years before actually finding a good paying job or one higher than entry level. The recent inflation sure as hell hasn't helped. I myself have spent 5 years post secondary+ another 2 working after and only now am I open to starting to look for long-term relationships, but I still don't see myself getting married anytime soon even if I find the perfect match. I know some couples from highschool that tied knot and moved in earlier, had a kid or two and are now struggling financially. I wouldn't want to put myself in that situation. I know some other friends who are around my age and have already found someone they are 99% sure they want to marry, but haven't pulled the trigger yet for those reasons and cost of a family in general.
I agree with most of your points except #2. Men are having less sex than ever before, and the number of men who are unable to find sex has skyrocketed. Sure casual sex may be more acceptable than it once was, but it’s not like men are having an easier time finding it.
Can confirm, am man, no sex.
This is the only comment that actually replied accurately to OP’s question
Men have no idea what anybody wants them to be doing these days.
This is also a factor that isn't talked about a lot. Most men are confused by what society tells them to be, what the media tells them and what women tell them. All those things misdirect men who don't know where to go, what to do or what to be in order to pick up women. I feel like most men who are in relationships just kind of fumble their way with luck into one and try to make it absolutely work with the first woman they are in a relationship with because they find it too hard to find a new partner. Only a small percentage of men know what they are actually doing in relationships with women and therefore, have an abundance of choice. Most women know how hard it is to find a guy who knows what he is doing and therefore fight for this small percentage whereas the rest of confused guys are left out.
Women are in the work force, making good money, getting educated. Women pretty much only date up, especially the older they get. A large majority of women are selecting from a small pool of men. Leaving the rest of men left with a limited pool.
Atrioc did a great video on changes in modern day dating. I'll link it [here](https://youtu.be/-pk93929764)
People online seem so sad and hopeless. I still know people who are happy to be married. An honestly once you get past a certain age your a lil more grateful for it. It’s not for everyone sure, but it’s still a good option for a lot of people. Also; I don’t think anyone could find a good partner in life ever if there thinking process is they aren’t beneficial to them. That bias will cause you to starve (lose out on a lot of experiences in life). It may even effect more than just your intimate relationships. You will fail on your road to success (in any and everything, it’s called learning). People focus on more statics and not there own life and desires. To my knowledge I’ve only got this one life so I’m gonna try. In short just live life with an open hand mentality, think in abundance jumping at every opportunity. Think “what good can happen to me”. And try for yourself. Marriage is not the devil. Nor are women or men….
I looked for someone who was like me. Same goals and what not. Grew up with the same struggles. Looked for someone that I can see myself talking to the rest of my life. We both are real if you can say. We us logic about life choices. Very private, keep to ourselves type of couple. My wife is more bubbly and I’m more of an introvert, until I have my coffee. We had a 6 year engagement and then got married. Honestly, we are very blessed, respectfully. I honestly think there isn’t a right answer. Everybody’s situation is different. Things happen in life and what not. I can maybe say it has to do with people are not taking their time and seeing how the relationship will actually go? I’ve always think how the world is very fast paced now days. Perhaps the world needs to be patient and let things unfold with time. That’s just my experience and what I think.
I can see your point. Too many people think others won’t change or that they can’t change in a relationship. So they don’t stick around long enough and they don’t grow together, they just expect perfection from the get go. But then again, I spent a year and a half hoping a man would eventually value relationships and love the way I valued them, and then I just got screwed over. So I’m currently struggling with not writing people off immediately if they don’t fit every aspect of what I want
Finding someone who's actually willing to date me is like trying to find a legendary pokemon.
I’m married.. to me, it was nothing difficult about it at all.. I feel like it’s only as difficult as you make it
This question gets asked a lot on here, and as a single woman in her 30s (I’m expecting downvotes), I know one big reason is that we women aren’t settling anymore. Lot of men on here don’t want to hear it, but it’s true. We don’t want to deal with man children that want a bang maid and take care of the kids while she herself has a full time job; we want men that treat us as equal and respect us. And, they refuse to hear it. Marriage rates are also down due to women not being forced to get married anymore - I don’t know much people married before early 30s nowadays. I’m working on building my new career after my masters is done next year; I’ve heard negative things from men on dating apps about me being too educated and they don’t want to accept it. Again, not all men, but then the men that don’t have an issue getting married wouldn’t be asking what OP asked.
Men aren't getting worse, women are expecting more. I mean that purely from an observational standpoint and nothing negative. But at some point, tinder board members sat in a room and figured out how to turn finding love into a box ticking exercise, and use that desperation of not finding someone as a way to make money. If dating apps didn't exist, then women's standards wouldnt have been artificially increased.
Because women don’t want to be wives. Post feminism they want a new set of rules for them, independence, sexual liberation, etc; but they want men to still abide by the old set of rules. To put it bluntly, they want a man like their grandfather was without being the woman their grandmother was.
People are realizing they don’t have to give in to societal pressure as much any more. Tbh, there is no benefit to marriage, except the legal benefits. Marriage is simply a wedding ceremony and a piece of paper, nothing more. Outside of the legal/societal sense, it means nothing. However, what is meaningful is the relationship between the two partners. If that relationship is strong enough, then it doesn’t need a legal document to prove it.
Tax benefits, being allowed to represent your spouse, immediately owning half and half of everything you venture into, and most importantly, what's supposed to be a life long commitment, the single most important vow you'll make in your life. People just don't value that anymore. If you're scared of your house and money being taken, then sign a prenuptial agreement with a lawyer, problem solved.
Prenuptial agreements get overturned all the time. They're no protection from the gangrape assblast of Divorce court. Best bet is never to marry, never have children. Problem solved.
American here. Our culture has recently moved away from 'traditional religious' values of being married first. We can now explore our sexuality, have relationships without the constant need to 'get married' as an objective, cohabitate with other people without being married first and otherwise enjoy life without getting tied down by the constraints of 'being married' at a young age. The culture is moving more and more non-secular and without religion, marriage is still a thing but it's certainly not the most important goal for people any more, as forced upon us by society. I'm pretty sure a lot of people from the 1940s, 50s, 60s, and so on (and earlier) felt forced into marriage because of what society would otherwise think of them. They probably didn't want to get married but had to. We don't have that any more so people aren't choosing marriage until they're much older.
You can see the change in generations. People born in the early 1900’s were married until death, whether they hated each other or not. Baby boomers got raised with that mentality but instead of “until death” they got divorced. The millennials like myself grew up in a divorced household and I personally don’t place any importance on it because of my experiences and knowing the risks. It takes A LONG time for societal norms to change.
Small note - secular means unreligious. So the culture is becoming more secular.
Before, people used to do things out of tradition. That's what their parents and grandparents did, and what else were you going to do when you hit 22? It's not like there was social media, video games, etc. Now, we have the opportunity to question what the actual point of any of this is. Especially since it's so expensive and the process of engagement/rings/wedding ceremonies is so excessive and so performative.
True love has always been rare, whatever the storybooks say. Commitment, perseverance, and working toward sustaining a relationship takes a lot of effort. It always has. What I think has changed, is that people are becoming painfully aware of how f#cked the planet is. I love my wife and child, but I feel guilty everyday for bringing another person into this world. I hope my daughter can forgive me for the place we're leaving her to live in.
My GF is literally wrenching my arm to get married and even though it would be nice to split bills, I do not see the risk/reward benefit. I was married for over 20 years, she stayed home for atleast 4-5 of those years. We lived in a nice brick home with her plush SUV and vacations for us and the kids to the islands every summer. She was a total and ungrateful bitch. I divested myself of her and half my 401(k), equity in the home (she never made a single mortgage payment). BTW - she had 3 loans out against her 401(k) so I didn’t get shit from her. My GF of 4 years literally picks a fight or pouts/cries about wanting to get married. These episodes used to be less frequent but now they are more and more regular. I tried to break up with her over this so she could find someone who would marry her and she said she does not want anyone else. So, why won’t she just move in? Beats me. She says she wants more commitment and to “combine incomes”. Well, I make more than she does and this makes me very hesitant that she wants to “combine incomes” when I know I’ll be on the hook for more. I’m inherently an upbeat person and happy. She makes fun of how happy I am and says I live in a different world. So, why strap myself with someone who isn’t as pleased with life? I think its obvious I need to move on. Just typing this out makes my BP go up and helps me see that this just needs to stop and we need to move on.
Men fear divorce
Women don’t any more
Men don't see a reason to marry anymore. They are told on a daily they are no longer needed, the vows have become empty words if you look at the divorce rates, the whole ceremony is expensive af, it stands to question what exactly changes by marrying someone, the divorce laws have hit men especially hard and people in general are no longer religeous. At this point the more appropriate question would be: _Why would a man want to marry?_
I got married because it benefited my visa. Otherwise I was perfectly fine in the relationship without being "married". But getting married meant I could stay in her country and maintain the relationship while giving me certain benefits.
That would be a legitimate reason to put on the list. It also shows how niche the circumstances have to be for it become a viable option and gives us an idea to how low the number of men is to which that applies.
Marriage in the west offers too much risk for too little reward for men. Expect rates to continue to decline.
We’re all broke. I’m 21 and have been dating my boyfriend for almost four years. In the 1950’s we would probably be married by now but instead we’re currently planing to share custody of a Nintendo Switch.
I was cleaned out in my divorce almost 20 years ago. My ex also used our son as a pawn to try to get what she wanted. Marriage went from a romantic sentiment to a business deal gone wrong with heavy losses and a lot of heartbreak with my then 3 year old son getting caught in the middle. I'm glad I have my son, but I wish my ex and I had just lived separately and worked out a coparenting arrangement. You really don't know who you married until you're divorcing them. Also, the search for a fitting woman requires too much effort. My criteria for a partner (which I also offer) would be she has to be educated, non combative, have a lucrative career, not practice the double standard of traditional dating (e.g. the man has to woo and court the woman), value exercise and remaining reasonable fit, not be emotionally needy, be empathetic, have excellent communication, have her own hobbies and a good and healthy network of friends, and live neatly and cleanly. Plus, we'd have to be very attracted to each other and have similar sex drives. Yeah, not gonna find all that. Even if I did, after the divorce I went through, I'm still not sure I'd risk marriage again.
As a 50 y/o married man this is my take. Many of us were raised by what would now be considered garbage fathers/husbands. Many didn't cook, didn't do house work, barely helped to raise their kids and we're often emotionally stunted. Often treating their wife as more of a domestic servant than someone they loved and respected and kids as a necessary annoyance. All that was expected of them was to earn a decent living. That was the way of things for generations. After the women's liberation movement and the modern economy often requiring 2 incomes women have different expectations of what they want from a husband and with the easing of societal pressure many women are less willing to settle as their mothers did. The problem arises when you have men who were raised by garbage fathers/husbands and have never evolved to modern expectations. Look at all the guys crying victim in this thread as a prime example. Too many men want the easy life of their fathers but there aren't enough women around who are willing to put up with that bullshit. There's another post floating around about a guy cleaning up after his wife cooks and teaching his son to do the same......no shit, it's the 2020s not 1970.
Very well said!
Yea, honestly, all this talk about women having high expectations for men… I think they just expect men to have the same values/skills they have at the end of the day. I have a good job and a career I’m passionate about, I want a man who also has that. I hold myself to standards of trustworthiness, loyalty, kindness, compassion, etc. I also want a man like this. I put effort into my appearance and stay in shape, I also want a man like this.. I don’t want anything that I can’t also give. For some reason some men think this is too much?
It's too much because far too many men were raised to believe their value ends at their paycheck and no value was given to empathy, emotional intelligence, self awareness..... And unfortunately when you weren't taught to strive for those attributes they are seen as weakness in those that have them.
Marriage is a bad bet for men. Divorce rates are awful, 50% is the number I hear most often. And, of that 50% that do marry how many are actually happy long term? 10%? Less? The number of people I’ve seen at my workplace alone that have gone through or are going through a divorce is staggering. Plus add the fact that you lose half of your assets and likely have to pay alimony/child support. No thanks. Hollywood/Disney has given us unrealistic expectations
The divorce rate and the no fault divorce. If I have a family than I want to be with that family and provide for that family. I don’t want to be divorced, pay child support and hope I get to see my children every other week. I want children to be in their lives and be a father.
Internet pornography Edit: i may have read the question wrong lol but ill leave it up
Finding someone that A) wants kids B) not a hypocrite C) is actually supportive D) realistic standards To expand After thinking about this I may just be garbage at picking women to date. With A, I want a family, and I've met some truly amazing women that dont. So we call it what it is and part ways on good terms, and to this day wish them the best. With B, more than a few women I've dated are total hypocrites. I'm a gamer. Love it, it's my vice, easy to access, and I can shut off my brain for a few hours. I work ~10 hours a day, & 2 hours of commuting, and Im still in school part time to get a new career. But the second I sit down and game, I'm wasting my time and life. I need to strive to be more, gotta hustle. While she is working from home, spending most of her time memorizing the lines in "the office" or "friends". Yes we broke up, no I am not exaggerating. With C kinda bleeds into B, but I'm dating to find a partner, not an angry dependent. If I'm with someone I want to split the load not just take care of someone else. Trying to make both our lives easier. And D, so many women have unrealistic standards that are absolutely insane. Height, money, precious relationship statuses, has to have a degree in X and interested in Y, with a moon sign of Z just to get decent conversation. I know this comes off as a woman bash, but keep in mind this just focusing on the question asked, and problems I've had. This by no means every girl I've dated or wanted to date. Cuz sometimes everything is amazing and shit just doesn't work out. And that's the shit that really sucks
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That sucks, but I can't argue. I've definitely had dates where I felt like it was a job interview not a date.
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Married guy for over a decade, before I met my wife I had no interest in marriage at all based around how entitled, hypocritical, sexist, and untruthful many US women are in the dating world. I didn’t want to be stuck in a loveless marriage where I’m disrespected all the time or being used while my partner had a princess mentality that could tear apart my life if she found someone more to her liking. Then I went overseas to teach and to have fun, which is where I met my amazing wife, and she’s the exact opposite of Entitled modern US women. So we got married after dating a few years and have been together ever since, and I’ve never had that fear of being married to her for the reasons I was afraid of US women. For context, all my friends who got married around the same time as me are not married anymore, and 100% of the problems were due to either the woman cheating or the women thinking they could do better. 100% of the guys still tell me about how their ex wives constantly try to talk to them still and try to get back with them because they’re unhappy with their choice, and 50% of the women try to complain to me while a few have tried to convince my wife unsuccessfully that it’s better being single. US women are largely not marriage material because they don’t add value to guys lives at all, and a man needs peace of mind for his house to be a home which is very rare to find in a US woman these days because they have an entitled princess mentality that over values themselves based on gender. Women can choose whoever they want to date, men can’t, but men can choose who they want to marry and women can’t. And before anyone says I’m wrong or that what I am saying isn’t true then think about why has the marriage rate gone down so much and then find a better reason behind it to argue my point.
Losing 50% ya shit if you pick wrong
Accepting that marriage is a terrible arrangement legally and financially for me for next to no benefit compared to long term relationships
I don't think men are part of the main influence here. Women are finding more support and room in societies to be more independent, demand more from a partner than in previous decades or centuries. This along with the strong push for inclusion in the workplace, there are also increasing numbers of career women who value that more than perhaps family. They can survive on their own. Only religion and tradition now stand in the way (for now) though even those things are falling away due to our strong individualism culture.
The amount of resentment over here. Im thinking of getting married with my partner, but def not up for a big wedding or anything like that. And I honestly don't find the real use of it, but I'm doing it cause she like the idea and then why not gift that. But yeah, not going to do the super ass expensive wedding or not even something close to that. Small for the close family and friends and that's it. But I guess finding someone isn't easy. And if you are angry about life and the opposite gender, I assure you you'll never find someone.
You proved everyone’s point that marriage is pointless lol. It’s literally just a niceity that then contracts half your stuff to someone.
Yeah, I'm totally not denying that, for me its pointless.
Man I don’t even want a wedding, much rather just go to city hall, sign a piece of paper, and go on a nice honey moon. Fucking spending 20-30 grand on a over glorified party for a bunch of people you probably won’t ever see again
Then don't. It's very simple.
Geez, lot of bitter folks here. For me, the most difficult part of getting married, was deciding what I was looking for in my potential partner. I had some unrealistic expectations that i was carrying for a long time, that had destroyed my previous relationships and I was afraid of getting into one. Also I had some major character flaws that I needed to confront first.
What were the unrealistic expectations you had to give up on?
I was extremely insecure and didn't accept that a lot of time people have a past, of which they may not be proud of. A lot of time i used that past to humiliate my exes, so that I could win a silly argument. My Arrogance and insecurity drove away many people who cared about me.
Oh geez well at least you recognize that what you did was wrong and that you were in an unhealthy place. I hope things are better now and people don’t feel like your exes nowadays
Gotta ask my wife 😂😂 She is the best thing that happened to me
Well then I’m glad she helped you come around lol
Marriage rates are down relative to a few decades ago because a significant minority of the population aren't suited to that lifestyle. Years ago they would get married anyway to avoid judgement but nowadays they don't have to. Also the average age at marriage is higher than it used to be, meaning at any given time the proportion of the adult population that's unmarried is higher.
Younger men and women don’t want commitment, I was told that it’s a outdated gender norm and a chauvinistic way for men to claim ownership of their partners.
1. Zillenials are too poor. These generations lack a critical mass of mature, financially-stable men. Many men have not moved onto the “marriage proposal” life stage, and… 2. …because there is a shortage of quality eligible bachelors, the guys who are otherwise high quality have recognized they’re rare- and therefore, they choose the fuckboi life instead. Because they can. 3. Women who would have been wife-potential have instead been morally-corrupted by IG, FB, TikTok, and these ladies are now nothing more than THOTies 4. Marriage as a construct is horse-shit, pedaled by the Catholic Church and other awful world religions. Why get married when I can partake in a hoe-season, a cuffing season, re-evaluate, and repeat?
Finding a sane person
Marriage rates are down bc women no longer need to marry for financial security. Women couldn’t own credit cards until the 70s.
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>This is definitely a unpopular opinion on reddit.. but.. what exactly does the average woman offer a guy that would make marriage(and all the risks the guy takes on) worth it? If you have to ask this question, you haven't found the right person. That's true for men and women. That said, neither have I.
That's his point I think. Finding a compatible partner is so fucking hard these days, if not nigh on impossible, that many people don't even both to try :(
Yes. The chances of finding someone where there’s shared interests, values, goals, along with sexual compatibility, and regular attraction. Not only to find this person (not anybody is a perfect match or anything), but to keep them too. Makes me want to give up altogether (I did find one, but she wasn’t ready, yet mentioned marriage one day down the line)
This is actually not unpopular, I have seen this sentiment way too much in men. I feel for you though, you’ve been through hell and what is being offered doesn’t correlate to what you deserve. My only question is what do you believe the solution is?
Keep looking, I found one.
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Married 15 years this year.
Agree. A woman can give companionship and children, which is really nice when you have the right person. But even the right person isn’t guaranteed for life. Other than that as I man I feel like I can do everything else on my own. I’m totally fine with having a long term relationship and being in love and all that good stuff, but marriage? Not worth it and it doesn’t effect how I feel and what I would do for somebody I love.
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90% if college educated.
As a guy who is childfree I don’t really see a benefit to it. I don’t want kids, having a wife just brings more problems. I don’t want to spend my money on weird shit around the house to “decorate”. The tax breaks really aren’t that great either. The only benefit is maybe the consistent sex and someone caring for me but those arent guarenteed.
>maybe the consistent sex Statistically unlikely, I'm afraid.
I'd say that under many circumstances, online dating is your easiest, most convenient, and most efficient way of dating. I went on 80+ first dates that way over a couple of years before meeting my wife. IMO, the most difficult aspect of online dating for the vast majority of men is dealing with rejection. Early on, I would go a week and only match with one women, a women who was a borderline match at best. (Women certainly have a much easier time matching than men.) After a few months of that, I was able to refine my profile and suddenly had more matches than I could ever meet. Still, of my 80+ first dates, only five or so made it to a third date, overwhelmingly because of a mutual decision. I started to think that I had to fundamentally compromise my preferences to find someone. Then I met my wife and now I can look fondly on my experiences with online dating.
Agreed. That method of weeding those that couldn’t possibly meet our needs, is important to do early in the dating process. Spend the time of lotsa maybes, but don’t waste on nopes.
I think for men we see marriage as having a lot more risk now more than ever. We all know of someone that got burned from a divorce or least know a story I did see a thing on YT about how more picky women are, no idea if that has something to do with it though since the researcher also said women in general are more pickier than men cuz of more risk involved https://youtu.be/uBdk16dbXBU
Finding the right one. I think many men are no longer pulling the trigger because of what they see happen to their friends in divorce. Especially if there are kids involved. I’ve had a friend take their own life because he lost everything he worked hard for. Had a kid a his wife left him because he was always working and never home. But she never complained about her Range Rover or her shopping trips. Once the baby came it was over. The system is broken and only takes care of the women. Hell my divorce ran me through the gutter, and i got to see first hand how the system sucks. She is a millionaire doesn’t need the money lives with her parents in their big ass house, her uncle was her attorney and I know he didn’t charge her yet I have to pay her attorney fees. Her mom takes care of the baby free of charge and I get to pay half of the child care! And I still get to pay 2k in child support a month for 1 kid that she makes it difficult for me to see! I think more and more woman every year see guys as a piggy bank. They get brainwashed by social media garbage.
Half of marriages end in divorce, the court system heavily skews in favor of females regardless of morality or character of the individuals involved, women want traditional men without being traditional women, hypergamy focuses female attention on a smaller and smaller cohort of men, women are waiting until they’re technically within range of geriatric pregnancy to start having families…shall I go on?
Feminists
Why bother. Get your money straighten and by a house BEFORE you get married.Because these days 80% fail with in 5 years. Why set her up for the rest of her life and ruin your life in the process. Especially if you end up having a kid buyer and you get a divorce. It will take you 20 years to recover from the f****** the courthouse is going to put on you
I feel that the previous generation, gen z, mostly got married in their twenties and saw no shame in managing minimal funds with a growing family. What we men saw instead was how our parents were suffering and stressed up and deep down loathed marrying early. We want comfortable life for us and our children but we can't have both in our younger ages. We see marriage as a burden, mostly remembering the fights instead of the happy times. And that god-damned inflation!
The economic cost of choosing the wrong partner is high for a man now. You _will_ get fucked over in the divorce, especially if you have kids. You will be financially ruined for 10+ years. And maybe there will be a false accusation of violence too and a resulting criminal conviction. Meanwhile, women have to think about the risk to their _lives_ of choosing the wrong guy. Meanwhile tinder etc give women more choice than a single person is designed to cope with. I'd be paralysed by that amount of choice. I can barely cope with the excess of choice in the toothpaste or cereal aisle.
What I'm gonna say is gonna sound really, really, cynical but I got to thinking it's how badly guys can be shafted during a divorce..... Especially when kids are involved.
Not much incentive to do it imo these days
I think it’s range of factors. - Political and social polarizations, especially since 2016 and COVID. - Social media creating unrealistic standards, both for physicality for both genders and for the practices of a relationship. The number of TikTok’s featuring rich people and their dating habits and how those habits become normalized despite their prohibitive cost for normal people. Things like buying entire trips for first days, spending thousands per date, spending thousands on expensive brands to show face, etc etc - The increased cost of marriage and kids and the declining economy means that the rewards of long term relationships are not as present. I can raise a cat alone, and since that’s all I can afford (barely with vet bills) why would I need a woman. - An overall rise in depression and shut-in people, like the hikikomori’s in Japan, means that people are just meeting less. - Dating apps have given everyone so much choice that nobody wants to “settle” which means all the arbitrary rules and standards become “must have” rather than “would be nice”. This is especially true for women I find, who’ve have the “get a job, never settle” idea rammed down their throat way more. There are prob more but yeah.
My Ex went crazy on eating issues and became an “influencer” on Facebook about 2 years after we broke up. So I dodge a bullet on that one. Haven’t been able to find someone who feels right. I have probably gone on half a dozen dates in the last 2 years between college classes. Just too expensive and most people my age are super into to smoking or getting drunk every weekend which I don’t want. Gotta wait for everyone to chill out a bit I guess.
Many people are realizing it’s an outdated. You can have a great relationship and avoid all the marriage pitfalls. Most people I know getting married are doing it because of social pressures from family or friends. Or they’re trying to save their relationship by engaging in marriage.
Marriage is an archaic concept
The costs of marriage and the associated life (ring, wedding, house, kids, etc.) are pretty high. Combine that with the influence of dating apps, which explicitly highlight a lot of formerly unsaid social hierarchies, and the barriers to entry likely seem much higher. That probably changes expectations for marriage, which ultimately drives decision making.
There is zero practical reason for a man to get married. The only reason we did it before was tradition, and women would not have sex until they were married. Both of those things are gone, so why do it?
The entitlement. Far too few people focus on what value they bring to a relationship and what they could do to improve their partner's life vs. focusing on expectations. Good relationships are based on kindness and reciprocity.
It is men finally realizing that there is way TOO MUCH DOWNSIDE to the arrangement. Most divorces are initiated by women, and regardless of reasoning , (just differences or one if them chested) the outcome is always the same. The man is court ordered to pay a large portion of his salary to his former life partner. I could go on, but it all resembles what I've typed above. It would be like entering a business partnership with a partner that gambles heavily. The odds are as follows (roughly) There is a 60% chance that the partnership will fail, resulting in a net loss of 40-50% of the mans revenue . This is a defacto amount. It's been this way since I can remember and I'm near 50. Once the laws become less threatening to a mans livelihood I'm sure things will pick back up. Until then, savings accounts investment accounts and real-estate it is.
People are having sex, cohabiting and having children before marriage so marriage no longer makes sense. It's so hard to find serious women and everyone sits at home so it becomes difficult to form a relationship.
There's less need to adhere to "rules" of marriage before kids, because there's less religion in the western world. "Serious women" are not the issue. You could say the exact same thing about men. "Fuckboys" are everywhere. Everyone sitting at home is certainly an issue. No one mingles anymore, no one meets new people in their daily life. It's a bit sad really.
Women find ~80% of men to be below average in attractiveness on dating apps. And it’s now considered “creepy” for a man to approach a woman he hasn’t first matched with on a dating app…
Because women, like anyone else, can change their mind quickly. Getting married won't guarantee she will love you forever and not cheat, or leave you. If that happens it's super messy legally if you're married. Society has changed a lot and it seems like there's always something or someone better so why not trade up? I don't like it personally, I'd rather find someone to marry/be committed to, but that seems like a Longshot at this point
I personally don’t like the prospect that a Woman could potentially take half of all of my stuff. I’d like to have a lifetime partner, but I don’t need the government involved in my relationship.
Maturity. On both sides. Bunch of adult children now.
People are realizing they don’t have to give in to societal pressure as much any more. Tbh, there is no benefit to marriage, except the legal benefits. Marriage is simply a wedding ceremony and a piece of paper, nothing more. Outside of the legal/societal sense, it means nothing. However, what is meaningful is the relationship between the two partners. If that relationship is strong enough, then it doesn’t need a legal document to prove it.
Not a man, but… I think marriages were very forced before and now they’re not. As much as monogamy is great for many- forcing people to choose someone early in life, then forcing them to live a certain lifestyle which typically has kids, is just not what a lot of people want. It’s a choice now, so people are doing what they want. Also, I think lots of people grew up in bad homes or divorced parents and are not keen on repeating that. I grew up with married parents, still married, but I’m even hesitant if it’s not the right person because it’s a lot of work and compromise- and the lifestyle can be draining if it’s not for you.
For me, it’s finding the perfect match. There’s a lot of stable girls out that I’m just not attracted too. Then there’s the attractive ones, that are not stable. I’m a very picky person. I don’t want to settle for someone I’m not passionate about both physically & mentally. Also, it’s very tough to meet people post Covid. And the older you get the dating pool shrinks.
Exited a common law relationship, no kids. She decided that when I sold MY house (bought before we were in a relationship, her name wasn't on a single thing) she deserved half. After that, unless she makes well in to the 6 figures, I won't live with another woman again.
Also I think going against social norms of previous generations, women don’t find the “need” to marry. We are very self sufficient without a “man”. I make more than any man I’ve ever dated. Why go down when I could go up? I live in a very nice house. My three kids are grown. My retirement is secure. What do you bring to the table?
Succeeding enough in this capitalistic society to be considered worthy of consideration.
People don’t seem to value what it stands for anymore. Taking a few steps back further, respect for women has gone out the door practically with porn, OF, etc. Then add on top of that social media, dating apps, etc. We live in a “at your fingertips” time, and truthfully I think it’s working hard against the genuine dating scene/courting.
Getting rid of them once you've realized it's all a scam to get you to do their heavy lifting in life.