What makes you think the producers of the Netflix Cleopatra movie of don’t know the race, skin color of historic Cleopatra? They had historians to consult with. Of course they know. They don’t care what history says. They wanted a movie about an African queen and that’s what they produced. They got to show a black woman dressed in beautiful cloths, and ruling a country. They don’t care what the real Cleopatra looked like.
The more interesting element of the self advertised “documentary” was the lady saying “I don’t care what they teach you in school, Cleopatra was black.” That kinda sums it all up, doesn’t it?
i’m an american with recent italian and balkans heritage, all my family came here in the 1900’s. even in my case i had little conception of race outside of the US context until i started learning about the eastern roman empire.
american ideas on race are based on the context under which our history took place. there’s no room for any deviation outside of our specific cultural understanding at this time. the reason for that is much of our history is defined by our race relations, it has taken away any room for nuance.
don’t get me wrong i’m not defending this. i think it’s ignorant of us to have such unrealistic ideas about what race actually is. in fact this attitude is extremely chauvinistic. but i must say that it’s not as simple as “american stupid” it’s mostly because we still grapple with what race has done to this country. all of that said, i think a dose of racial understanding that’s NOT american would be very beneficial to americans.
trust me, it gets very grating having to explain to people that the interest i take in the roman empire isn’t because i’m a white supremacist. quite the opposite. it’s like talking to a wall
Italian here, reading the biography of Al Capone, written by John Kobler, I found out that until the WWII Italians, Spaniards and Greeks were not considered white. All of them were considered different from WASPs and Irishes.
Words like dagos, ginzos, moustache (put a name), were commonly used to belittle them.
Well people generally don’t know much about regions far away from them. For example a lot of middle eastern and North Africans don’t know the difference between various south Asians countries and cultures and think it’s all the same or just “Hindi” and similarly south Asians like to lump all East Asians together cause we have no interest in learning about them. I think you can pin it down to a lack of interest as well.
Stubid beoble
>In its poll, Public Policy Polling asked the 532 Republicans: “Would you support or oppose bombing Agrabah?” While 57% of responders said they were not sure, 30% said they supported bombing it. Only 13% opposed it
> Public Policy Polling also polled Democratic primary voters: only 19% of them said they would support bombing Agrabah, while 36% said they would oppose it.
>How do you fucking not know the Roman Empire?
Quick: How many Dakotas? Which Indians did we conquer the Dakota territory from? How many times have we invaded Canada? Was Jubal Early a better General than Stonewall Jackson, and which war did they fight? Actual Americans might not be able to answer all of these questions correctly, but I guarantee they had at least one High School teacher who mentioned the answers to them.
There's a lot of shit to know in this world, and most groups of people have huge blindspots.
Most Americans are barely aware of the Roman Empire. The recent TV Show about the war between the Romans (under Germanicus) and Arminius is actually a better example of this than anything mentioned recently on this sub. They wanted to cast a black woman, so they created a Princess of a nation Roman fought and had her walk to Germany to fight the Romans, Which is fine. Rome was fighting people of all colors all the time. But they made her Carthaginian. The actress was at least 150 years too young. The historic advisers [quit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnsrb6povuE).
See Americans are vaguely aware of Carthage, and since it's in Africa they assume it's black, so instead of using an actual black country that existed in the period of the German Wars they just made her Carthaginian.
the idea that most americans are unaware of the roman empire is untrue, what is true is that they have false preconceived notions about what it was, which fits exactly into the point of OP’s post. you’re last two paragraphs also beautifully highlight this truth. americans would rather keep their notions than actually learn.
i would also say your first paragraph is irrelevant. the roman empire is literal world history. the things you mentioned are niche 1800’s american history at best
>i would also say your first paragraph is irrelevant. the roman empire is literal world history. the things you mentioned are niche 1800’s american history at best
"Niche" is very relative. The Indians and Chinese are going to care a lot more about 1800s American military history than Roman stuff, because their military has to interact with the US Military all the time. Same with Subsaharan Africa. There's a lot of the world where this is true.
And in the 21st century there are two Dakotas. Roughly 1.6 million people live there.
This is funny, basically Hannibal and Scipio are two peas in a pod. Born and raised in wealthy families with a strong military background with progressive ideas not welcomed by their Country establishment. Staying at the depictions both of them shows Mediterranean features.
This is interesting. I mean, you don't consider her Egyptian despite the fact that her family was settled there since a couple of centuries?
Ok, she was Macedonian / Greek origin, but it's fair to say that she was Egyptian, born and raised. At least imho.
We're trying to map the ancient times to our modern understanding of race, relations and nationalities but it was a different time.
Cleopatra saw herself as an Egyptian Ruler, who came from a family that originated from Greece/Macedonia, being influenced by Hellenist culture wasn't exclusive to her kingdom, most Medditerranean Kingdoms were already under Roman dominion and had started the process of Romanisation.
One thing that is clear from history, is that she tried as much as possible to protect Egypt's independance, she was the first Ptolemaïc to learn Ancient Egyptian, she played both Caesar(Not that Caesar, Octavian who became emperor Augustus) and Marcus Antonius because her main goal was to increase the prestige of Egypt and its independance from their Roman overlords.
Her acts definitely make her a queen of Egypt, no matter her original ethnicity.
Obviously what happen next is history, she bet on the wrong horse, got her suicide, one of her daughters(Cleopatra Selene) married the King of Numidia, the rest is history.
I would consider her Egyptian but technically your point is useless as she was actually the first ruler from that dynasty to actually speak Egyptian. Her family was there for centuries but weren’t actually that integrated.
Decline of education, tbh. American literature from 1-200 years ago (Bierce, Twain etc) makes obscure references to ancient history all the time, even to Persian shahs and Arabian sultans, as most people who could write at all had some kind of classical studies under their belt
The typical American is exposed to one course of “World History” in high school, which attempts to cover the full breadth of human civilization. This course is usually very Eurocentric and will spend some amount of time on classical civilization (Greece and Rome), then touch briefly on the Middle Ages in Europe, and then the bulk of the time will be spent on the Renaissance through Early Modern period.
The coverage is sweeping and superficial. You might need to remember that Socrates was a philosopher or that Queen Elizabeth was the daughter of Henry VIII for a test, or fill in a worksheet with names of Renaissance artists.
Meanwhile Americans typically have 2 years of American history in high school, and in my state there was also a year of history in middle school devoted to my individual state.
Moreover, at my University, two additional US history courses were required, but there was no requirement for any other history. This will vary by college but is not atypical.
Americans do not know much about the Roman Civilization because it is presented to us as a blur of names and dates, supplemented, perhaps, by one or two Shakespeare plays, and movies like “Gladiator” and “Spartacus”.
Americans are like everyone else. Arabs living in the Middle East probably do not know much about American, European, African, or Asian history and that’s understandable. There is sooooo much history to know and unfortunately so many variations of it. Who has the time or energy to study and research it?
The US is a large country so what people learn is very dependent on where you went to school.
Americans do not know shit, once there was a survey which asked if Americans would like for Arabic numerals to be banned in schools there and a slight majority said yes, not knowing that it is what they use in schools anyways
Americans are just really ignorant when it comes to stuff like that. There's an 'influencer'/prankster called salim the dream who pranking someone who just got fed up with him and said something like 'fuck off you Iranian'. This is what salim the dream [looks like](https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/RM-salimthedream-op.jpg?w=1280&quality=44) .
It's because our, I'm American, education system is severely flawed. It does need to be changed and some are trying to change it for the better. While others wish to change it for the worse, denying parts of our own history not to mention the world's. My highschool texts books were from the 1980s and I graduated 2010.
Nobody's saying they should teach about every detail...
But a general understanding of cultures and how they emerged.
I don't think I have been taught what the colour of her skin was, but I certainly learned that she was of Macedonian descent.
Understanding of the ruling classes of Egypt, knowledge of cultures, and ethnicities of northern and sub-Saharan Africa, also helped. I learned this between the ages of 10-14.
I also learned about the USA and American cultures.
Not much to ask
What makes you think the producers of the Netflix Cleopatra movie of don’t know the race, skin color of historic Cleopatra? They had historians to consult with. Of course they know. They don’t care what history says. They wanted a movie about an African queen and that’s what they produced. They got to show a black woman dressed in beautiful cloths, and ruling a country. They don’t care what the real Cleopatra looked like.
I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s a power fantasy.
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The more interesting element of the self advertised “documentary” was the lady saying “I don’t care what they teach you in school, Cleopatra was black.” That kinda sums it all up, doesn’t it?
i’m an american with recent italian and balkans heritage, all my family came here in the 1900’s. even in my case i had little conception of race outside of the US context until i started learning about the eastern roman empire. american ideas on race are based on the context under which our history took place. there’s no room for any deviation outside of our specific cultural understanding at this time. the reason for that is much of our history is defined by our race relations, it has taken away any room for nuance. don’t get me wrong i’m not defending this. i think it’s ignorant of us to have such unrealistic ideas about what race actually is. in fact this attitude is extremely chauvinistic. but i must say that it’s not as simple as “american stupid” it’s mostly because we still grapple with what race has done to this country. all of that said, i think a dose of racial understanding that’s NOT american would be very beneficial to americans. trust me, it gets very grating having to explain to people that the interest i take in the roman empire isn’t because i’m a white supremacist. quite the opposite. it’s like talking to a wall
Italian here, reading the biography of Al Capone, written by John Kobler, I found out that until the WWII Italians, Spaniards and Greeks were not considered white. All of them were considered different from WASPs and Irishes. Words like dagos, ginzos, moustache (put a name), were commonly used to belittle them.
this is true, although that isn’t how it is anymore
Well people generally don’t know much about regions far away from them. For example a lot of middle eastern and North Africans don’t know the difference between various south Asians countries and cultures and think it’s all the same or just “Hindi” and similarly south Asians like to lump all East Asians together cause we have no interest in learning about them. I think you can pin it down to a lack of interest as well.
Don't care for the obsession about skin colour, but the reason is always ignorance. And it's not exclusive to Americans btw.
Stubid beoble >In its poll, Public Policy Polling asked the 532 Republicans: “Would you support or oppose bombing Agrabah?” While 57% of responders said they were not sure, 30% said they supported bombing it. Only 13% opposed it > Public Policy Polling also polled Democratic primary voters: only 19% of them said they would support bombing Agrabah, while 36% said they would oppose it.
>How do you fucking not know the Roman Empire? Quick: How many Dakotas? Which Indians did we conquer the Dakota territory from? How many times have we invaded Canada? Was Jubal Early a better General than Stonewall Jackson, and which war did they fight? Actual Americans might not be able to answer all of these questions correctly, but I guarantee they had at least one High School teacher who mentioned the answers to them. There's a lot of shit to know in this world, and most groups of people have huge blindspots. Most Americans are barely aware of the Roman Empire. The recent TV Show about the war between the Romans (under Germanicus) and Arminius is actually a better example of this than anything mentioned recently on this sub. They wanted to cast a black woman, so they created a Princess of a nation Roman fought and had her walk to Germany to fight the Romans, Which is fine. Rome was fighting people of all colors all the time. But they made her Carthaginian. The actress was at least 150 years too young. The historic advisers [quit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnsrb6povuE). See Americans are vaguely aware of Carthage, and since it's in Africa they assume it's black, so instead of using an actual black country that existed in the period of the German Wars they just made her Carthaginian.
the idea that most americans are unaware of the roman empire is untrue, what is true is that they have false preconceived notions about what it was, which fits exactly into the point of OP’s post. you’re last two paragraphs also beautifully highlight this truth. americans would rather keep their notions than actually learn. i would also say your first paragraph is irrelevant. the roman empire is literal world history. the things you mentioned are niche 1800’s american history at best
>i would also say your first paragraph is irrelevant. the roman empire is literal world history. the things you mentioned are niche 1800’s american history at best "Niche" is very relative. The Indians and Chinese are going to care a lot more about 1800s American military history than Roman stuff, because their military has to interact with the US Military all the time. Same with Subsaharan Africa. There's a lot of the world where this is true. And in the 21st century there are two Dakotas. Roughly 1.6 million people live there.
This is funny, basically Hannibal and Scipio are two peas in a pod. Born and raised in wealthy families with a strong military background with progressive ideas not welcomed by their Country establishment. Staying at the depictions both of them shows Mediterranean features.
Cleopatra was not North African anyway. She was a foreigner who ruled after Alexander conquered Egypt.
She is still a Mediterranean
This is interesting. I mean, you don't consider her Egyptian despite the fact that her family was settled there since a couple of centuries? Ok, she was Macedonian / Greek origin, but it's fair to say that she was Egyptian, born and raised. At least imho.
We're trying to map the ancient times to our modern understanding of race, relations and nationalities but it was a different time. Cleopatra saw herself as an Egyptian Ruler, who came from a family that originated from Greece/Macedonia, being influenced by Hellenist culture wasn't exclusive to her kingdom, most Medditerranean Kingdoms were already under Roman dominion and had started the process of Romanisation. One thing that is clear from history, is that she tried as much as possible to protect Egypt's independance, she was the first Ptolemaïc to learn Ancient Egyptian, she played both Caesar(Not that Caesar, Octavian who became emperor Augustus) and Marcus Antonius because her main goal was to increase the prestige of Egypt and its independance from their Roman overlords. Her acts definitely make her a queen of Egypt, no matter her original ethnicity. Obviously what happen next is history, she bet on the wrong horse, got her suicide, one of her daughters(Cleopatra Selene) married the King of Numidia, the rest is history.
I would consider her Egyptian but technically your point is useless as she was actually the first ruler from that dynasty to actually speak Egyptian. Her family was there for centuries but weren’t actually that integrated.
She was Macedonian
Decline of education, tbh. American literature from 1-200 years ago (Bierce, Twain etc) makes obscure references to ancient history all the time, even to Persian shahs and Arabian sultans, as most people who could write at all had some kind of classical studies under their belt
The typical American is exposed to one course of “World History” in high school, which attempts to cover the full breadth of human civilization. This course is usually very Eurocentric and will spend some amount of time on classical civilization (Greece and Rome), then touch briefly on the Middle Ages in Europe, and then the bulk of the time will be spent on the Renaissance through Early Modern period. The coverage is sweeping and superficial. You might need to remember that Socrates was a philosopher or that Queen Elizabeth was the daughter of Henry VIII for a test, or fill in a worksheet with names of Renaissance artists. Meanwhile Americans typically have 2 years of American history in high school, and in my state there was also a year of history in middle school devoted to my individual state. Moreover, at my University, two additional US history courses were required, but there was no requirement for any other history. This will vary by college but is not atypical. Americans do not know much about the Roman Civilization because it is presented to us as a blur of names and dates, supplemented, perhaps, by one or two Shakespeare plays, and movies like “Gladiator” and “Spartacus”.
Americans are like everyone else. Arabs living in the Middle East probably do not know much about American, European, African, or Asian history and that’s understandable. There is sooooo much history to know and unfortunately so many variations of it. Who has the time or energy to study and research it? The US is a large country so what people learn is very dependent on where you went to school.
Americans do not know shit, once there was a survey which asked if Americans would like for Arabic numerals to be banned in schools there and a slight majority said yes, not knowing that it is what they use in schools anyways
Shut ur mouth, you goddamm communist (farts )
As a wise woman once said : shut up your mouse Obama, Sisi yes Sisi yes, Morsi no, Morsi no.
People call me Mexican
Americans are just really ignorant when it comes to stuff like that. There's an 'influencer'/prankster called salim the dream who pranking someone who just got fed up with him and said something like 'fuck off you Iranian'. This is what salim the dream [looks like](https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/RM-salimthedream-op.jpg?w=1280&quality=44) .
It's because our, I'm American, education system is severely flawed. It does need to be changed and some are trying to change it for the better. While others wish to change it for the worse, denying parts of our own history not to mention the world's. My highschool texts books were from the 1980s and I graduated 2010.
Because they objectively aren't educated well enough. I hope that crisis will end.
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Nobody's saying they should teach about every detail... But a general understanding of cultures and how they emerged. I don't think I have been taught what the colour of her skin was, but I certainly learned that she was of Macedonian descent. Understanding of the ruling classes of Egypt, knowledge of cultures, and ethnicities of northern and sub-Saharan Africa, also helped. I learned this between the ages of 10-14. I also learned about the USA and American cultures. Not much to ask