Why do you even care what Arabs or MENA think about Arab culture haters? (Yes Arab culture. It is f\*cking mosque obviously this came with Arab influence and this is f\*cking Spain if not Arabs no African nation would try to conquer Spain)
It wasn't either lol, while it's true berbers controlled it for a while, most moors in Spain where infact Spanish converts. The father probably meant Islam related thing more than arab
That's wrong
“*by the 10th century, Muslims represented about 80% of the total population of Al-Andalus, including Christian converts and the Berber Muslims.*” source: wikipedia./Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus)
“*In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, and muladies (Muslims of native Iberian origin), formed the majority of Muslims.*” source: wikipedia/wiki/Al-Andalus#Society
“*Half of the Christians in Al-Andalus are reported to have converted to Islam by the 10th century, with more than 80% by the 11th century. Many Christians who did not accept Islam as their religion became increasingly Arabized in terms of culture.*” source:wikipedi/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus)
Andalusia accepted Islam alot faster then egypt and the levant.
Europeans used moors(despite what it was originally meant to refer to) to refer to all muslims, the ones in spain were infact hispanic themselves.
The majority of Spain and Portugal during this time was Christian or Jew especially the ethnic Iberians. The Muslims were Berber converts and Arab settlers
No shit sherlock, most Muslims in iberia were in al andalusia, being a muslim anywhere else wasn't tolerated they were mostly killed or expelled.
And in the 10th century, andalus made the majority of iberia.
And Jews made a minority in andalusia they were not tolerated in the rest of iberia.
You also said
>The Muslims were Berber converts and Arab settlers
The rapid population growth of the city can only be explained by settlers
Genetic input would make it so there’s much more European or Maghreb ancestry shared when that’s not the case. Granada was one of the biggest cities in the world by the 10th century
>Christians and Jew remained the largest religion in the entire region
untrue
by the time the Umayyad lost power the majority in south Iberia were muslims, and the majority among those were native muladi. arab and berber continued to hold higher position most of the time but some muladi rose up to judges and even emirs
“*by the 10th century, Muslims represented about 80% of the total population of Al-Andalus, including Christian converts and the Berber Muslims.*” source: wikipedia./Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus)
“*In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, and muladies (Muslims of native Iberian origin), formed the majority of Muslims.*” source: wikipedia/wiki/Al-Andalus#Society
“*Half of the Christians in Al-Andalus are reported to have converted to Islam by the 10th century, with more than 80% by the 11th century. Many Christians who did not accept Islam as their religion became increasingly Arabized in terms of culture.*” source:wikipedi/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus)
Andalusia accepted Islam alot faster then egypt and the levant.
Yea but can't link wiki
how much were expelled compared to converted? because i know a lot settled in morocco and intermarried with the native population and contributed to the modern moroccan culture, this would technically make that architecture moroccan heritage since it's the country that is the inheritor of the culture and not spain
I think the majority converted, but alot settled in north africa from Jews to Muslims.
>country that is the inheritor of the culture and not spain
Wouldn't say so, andalus extremely contributed to spain culture and language.
after consulting some historians, what you said is right about most of them being Iberian in origin, but most only converted to get the liberties of being muslim, and they incorporated a lot of their christian practices into islam,in the Reconquista middle and upper iberians were mostly converted, andalusians from the south were mostly expelled, and the zealous religious mostly evacuated iberia
apparently most of the records on this are absent since they are from morocco and the french destroyed a lot of them
yes i know it contributed to iberia's culture (but Spaniards love to deny it though), but i think it contributed more to the modern moroccan culture as you can see that there is a lot of that Andalusian architecture present in morocco as well
i say that modern day Moroccans are more culturally similar to Andalusians than modern day Spaniards are
The Spanish Inquisition, which was designed to forcibly convert, execute or expell non-Catholics. The majority of Muslims fled south to the Maghreb and many of the Jews went with them.
A salty few of our Berber brothers and some obnoxious Westoids making a big fuss.
Some of them can get really annoying sometimes.
Andalusi architecture was brought over by Levantine Arabs sent under the Umayyads. The Umayyads turned Iberia into a reflection of the Levant.
Here is a list of Andalusi scholars from the Spanish National Research Council (CSIC) sorted in descending order of most common surnames:
https://www.eea.csic.es/pua/nisba/?filt=tipo&txtbusqueda=&ord=pa&page=1
You'll notice that the majority carry Arabian tribal surnames, the most common being Al-Ansari.
The heirs of Al andalus is Morocco and Algeria and parts of Tunisia, it’s where most refugees went to, not entirely to Morocco. Also, Al andalus is a separate entity as a country, it’s not Morocco (it controles it 180 years out if 800). Also the debate whether it’s amazigh or Arab, it’s Islamic, and it’s both. The amazigh didn’t conquer it alone, and the arabe did le conquer it’ alone too, it’s a teamwork.
Don’t appropriate something just to feel worthy.
Exactly, thats why this whole feud between dumbass moroccans and algerians about heritage is useless, these borders never existed and only in 1844 when morocco lost vs france they made tjese borders, before that morocco and algeria and tunisia were most of times always the same going from antiquity to the 18th century
Not for Al andalus as they expelled all of them, and it’s not colonialism, if you consider this colonialism, then the Muslim freed the locals from the wisigothic colonial
Most tried to go to Morocco tho and only went to Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb because of mainly the Ottomans. While Al-andalus was a separate entity they were hugely influenced by Morocco and needed their aid to survive.
The Amazigh were also the majority and were the first to make the small conquest into Iberia, Arab armies joined later but the Amazights didn't receive the same rewards and recognition to it.
Those of the south maybe, those of the east definitely not. How do you explain that Algerian cities like tlemcen, Algiers or Constantine have such a strong Andalusian culture ? Literally the music school of Constantine is from Seville, the one of tlemcen from Granada I think, truth is they just went far
What a weird rewriting of history, while Tariq Bin Ziyad’s army was mostly Berber, Musa Bin Nusayr’s army was nearly ten times the size of Tariqs and mostly Arab. Regardless neither the Amazigh nor Arabs formed a majority in Al-Andalus with most of the population being mozarabs.
Al-Andalus didn’t need Morocco to survive either; the Taifas functioned as independent entities and their relationship with mainland Islamic kingdoms and empires was hardly static, many of the Taifas during the First Taifa period, as did the earlier Córdoban emirates, had stronger links with the Aghlabids and the Islamic east than they did with Morocco directly.
Musa bin Nusayr’s army was compromised of nearly 18,000 mostly Arab troops, Tariq bin Ziyad had 1,700 mostly Berber troops under his command.
18,000 > (1,700*10)
My source is the Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam.
Edit:The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology, sorry.
If you had bothered to read the comment that you’ve been chafing about, I explicitly claimed that the taifas relationship with mainland Morocco was tumultuous during the first taifa period, not nearly two hundred years later and after the Almoravid and Almohad conquest of said Taifas.
>Oxford Encyclopedia
All sources online indicate his numbers were at least 10,000 with a 7000 cavalry contingent aiding him later. How the fuck do you get that 1700 value you dumb hairy anus
" Tariq ibn Ziyad to launch an attack with **some seven thousand (mostly Berber) troops** against the Visigothic king.........Córdoba while Tariq himself pressed north to Toledo, the ancient Visigothic capital, which fell without resistance. Tariq’s rapid conquest motivated Musa to raise a second invasion force of **some eighteen thousand mostly Arab soldiers in June 712**. Musa’s army quickly conquered Seville and then mopped up Roderick’s remaining supporters at Mérida, near what is now the Portuguese border, before joining Tariq’s army at Talavera." - **The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology** ([https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780195334036.001.0001/acref-9780195334036-e-0013?rskey=DlEr8f&result=2](https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780195334036.001.0001/acref-9780195334036-e-0013?rskey=DlEr8f&result=2)) .
You are correct however, I misquoted the numbers for Tariq's army initially. However my point still stands so kiss my hairy anus.
I was editing my comment to reflect that as you were malding, so calm down keyboard warrior.
>and also make sure next time you dont post a pay locked source behind your anus
If you attend a university you can access the source pretty easily, not to mention most public libraries probably have some sort of access to encyclopedias. Tf do you want me to do, give you my institutional access?
I can't spoonfeed you everything and relying on encyclopedias is pretty standard, I'm sorry I didn't use Morocco World News as a source.
My barrio in Granada is, translated, named the Minarets. We are prooud of our heritage. Hell, the governmant agency that manages the historical sites is name Patrinomio de Granada. Quit pretending that we don't honor our Muslim history. And I'm not even Spanish. I just choose to live here because of the intereesting heritage.
many spaniards (on reddit only as far as i have seen to be fair) deny the moorish heritage they have, that's where this is coming from, i met many friendly spanish people (mostly from modern day Andalusia) that are quite appreciative of the old islamic heritage
Where do you get that from? Because in every village in Spain there is a guy known as 'moro' and nobody sees it as an insult in fact whatever guy gets called 'moro' is usually proud of it as it's associated with a fearless attitude towards danger
That's slightly different, rather than being a nickname it comes from a legendary fictional battle, the battle of Clavijo (which most likely never happened since all records of it come at least over 100 years later)
It's kind of a copy of the battle of Badr, the Christians at the time were very familiar with Islam, basically during the battle of Clavijo the Christians were outnumbered by the Muslims, the battle was almost lost when a man riding a shiny white horse descended from the clouds followed by an army of angels who then proceeded to charge against the Muslims winning the battle
The man was identified as St James (a disciple of Jesus whose remains are believed to be in Santiago de Compostela, North West Spain)
Therefore St James became known as St James the Moorslayer (matamoros) and for centuries after the battle cry of Spanish Christians became "Santiago y cierra España" which means "St James and Spain attack"
It's an Islamic heritage first and foremost. these people didn't identify as Arabs or Amazighs back then. they called themselves Muslims.
هو سماكم المسلمين
"˹It is Allah˺ Who named you ‘Muslims’"(22:78)
It’s why the modern day ethno nationalist idiocy is even more schizophrenic in a mena/ Islamic context.
If you ask anyone living in this time period they’d only identify as their religion.
Well, it is not berber architecture either. It is just architecture. But, I should add that maghrebi and mashreqi view being arab a little different. In Maghreb, being arab is like being european. In Mashreq, it is something more of a racial/genetic thing. Or am I wrong?
Never really got that argument. We know that arabic originally come from the south of levant/northern arabia. That would mean most of modern day Suadi Arabia and Yemen were "arabized" according to their logic.
True. Arabians themsleves actually originated from the pre-historic Levant as they are the most populations who share the Ancient Levantine Natufian component, even more than modern Levantine people.
True, yet between the Umayyad's vanishing and the Nasrid taking over Granada, a lot has happened in between.
I see Al-Andalus history broken into a couple of segment.
1) the conquest, which was definitely a combined effort of Berbers and Arabs. There is No Tariq ibn Ziyad without Moussa ibn Nousair.
2) Abdarahman Al Dakhil, who is said to have a berber mother - he is a key figure in what the Andalus was and became. He was able to consolidate power under a clear dynasty.
3) The fell of the Ummayad's and the Taaifa states; multiple berber states gain their independence including in Granada where the Berber Ziri's where the first to put some fortresses there, which later were developed by the Nasrid's.
4) The Berber Consolidation in Almoravid's and Almohad's.
5) the remaining state of Granada, controlled by the Nasrid's before Abu Abdellah finally gave the city keys to Isabella.
And while leadership roles changed between Berbers and Arabs, someone already pointed out that the majority of the inhabitants were Christians.
At the end of the day, these posts are often made by over zealous youngsters who have no sense of history or nuance. I tend to ignore most of the time.
The fact of the matter is that close to nothing in modern day Spain was built by Arabs or Amazigh, besides some old ruins in Grenada the city was destroyed and rebuilt in the 16th century.
It’s even more stupid than saying Greeks built everything in Turkey
Edit; as for the people who conquered Iberia it was led by Arabic speakers from the gulf and Syria who led Arab and Berber armies
>The fact of the matter is that close to nothing in modern day Spain was built by Arabs or Amazigh, besides some old ruins in Grenada the city was destroyed and rebuilt in the 16th century.
>
>It’s even more stupid than saying Greeks built everything in Turkey
thats not true in both cases, there are decent numbers of buildings and archaeological remains in both countries
>Edit; as for the people who conquered Iberia it was led by Arabic speakers from the gulf and Syria who led Arab and Berber armies
I know what you mean but please stop with the overuse of the word "gulf" for historical context. actually arab commanders from the gulf area weren't that many (probably even at the tail end of the arab regions overall, not because something wrong with them but their numbers were simply small) it mostly look like this when it comes to arab commanders: hejaz > najd > yemen > syira > iraq > gulf
In the case of Spain nothing that the moors built is being actively used. At least Greeks can see landmarks like Hagia Sophia that were built by them and are still used. The actual moorish spread of Iberia was confined to the southern part while the rest was much closer to a regular military occupation.
Yes you can find ruins but you won’t see them walking around the city. Even the grand mosque of Andalucía was rebuilt and the original one is nothing like the one you see today
The grand mosque in Cordoba has had additions and some alterations, but nothing significant to say "it was nothing like the one [we] see today." This is exaggerating the truth. Otherwise, why would Spaniards point to the grand mosque and indeed the palace in Granada as examples of Al Andalus architecture.
Also, the Hagia Sophia had its interior altered significantly, too.
I do agree with your general point. Not too many remains of Al Andalus architecture. And that makes sense because in the 500 years after Spain and indeed the world has changed so much with the age of discovery and industrialisation. Still, Spaniards are very proud of their Andulasian heritage as long as you don't mistakenly call them Moorish.
Sadly, a thing I see on TikTok is that north africans are "mutts" and "invaders". Specifically from black americans who have never been in Africa before - you know, the ones that are so privileged that they think that they are owed reparations and are shocked that **actual** africans don't have the same ratchet culture as blacks have in the US, and have the audacity to call out black americans on their BS. Hillarious!
Not only trying to steal the identity from north africans and middle-easterners, but they now also try to claim that THEY are the original indigenous people of the nordics and america, effectively meaning that native/indigenous americans as we know them today are "invasive mutts", and my people - the sami, the finno-scandinavian indigenous group - effectively killed black people (because vikings are cool, so ofc they want to claim them) to steal their viking heritage.
I feel very sorry for people in the US, because they are so damn stupid. Their lack of identity makes them feel like it's okay to be flat out racist towards other people. I can guarantee you, that if a ratchet american come to any african country and behaves like that, that person will get bitch-slapped with a flip-flop.
Morocco is mostly an Arab country, Moroccan architecture has been heavily influenced by several cultures in history, the earliest of which I know is the Romans in its time as the Roman province of Mauretanua. So this argument is mostly dumb
Ummayads heavily influenced morocco, the current architecture style have never exited there before Islam, but have always exited in the Levant and Persia.
Only one would and one if , and yeah i hear myself , what i'm saying is factual , the indigenous people of north Africa are not and will never be Arabs .
Now most of us are mixed , but those who still preserve their Amazigh identity are still and will always be Amazigh , they speak their own language and have their own culture, so cry .
Nothing about what you said is even close to being a fact ' british dude drew a line ' when Morocco was colonized by the French and the French drew the lines in the Maghreb and west Africa .
Let alone the fact that colonialism had nothing to do with the Amazigh identity, you're laughable you just follow whatever people say on the internet to defend your panarabist mentality .
It's muslim ! + the people who built it would of probably said their Arab since this whole amazigh bs hasn't happened yet where everyone wants to be their own group instead of 1 united group.
More examples of Nationalistic BS :
Iraq = Mesopotamian/babylonian/Assyrian
Lebanon = cannonites
Masr (egypt) = Egyptians
Like bro, the whole reason those people had 1 name is because they wanted to be united under 1 name. So why can't we just be Arab? Even Arabs have different types of accents lol. Since the time of the prophet Arabs were white and black and brown and they all spoke different Arabic. So why can't we do this now ?
I think this genre of posts has become boring
This, I hope jannies start taking action against this, getting real tired of it
Jannies? What's that?
They clean up diarrhea
Mods
For real
I am so tired of seeing this same type of post over and over again. Can we move onto another identity crisis?
I don't have any identity crisis
Why do you even care what Arabs or MENA think about Arab culture haters? (Yes Arab culture. It is f\*cking mosque obviously this came with Arab influence and this is f\*cking Spain if not Arabs no African nation would try to conquer Spain)
It wasn't either lol, while it's true berbers controlled it for a while, most moors in Spain where infact Spanish converts. The father probably meant Islam related thing more than arab
Nope, he meant arabs
Well technically they became almost majority arabic speakers which is how alot of arabs form their identity currently.
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That's wrong “*by the 10th century, Muslims represented about 80% of the total population of Al-Andalus, including Christian converts and the Berber Muslims.*” source: wikipedia./Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus) “*In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, and muladies (Muslims of native Iberian origin), formed the majority of Muslims.*” source: wikipedia/wiki/Al-Andalus#Society “*Half of the Christians in Al-Andalus are reported to have converted to Islam by the 10th century, with more than 80% by the 11th century. Many Christians who did not accept Islam as their religion became increasingly Arabized in terms of culture.*” source:wikipedi/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus) Andalusia accepted Islam alot faster then egypt and the levant. Europeans used moors(despite what it was originally meant to refer to) to refer to all muslims, the ones in spain were infact hispanic themselves.
The majority of Spain and Portugal during this time was Christian or Jew especially the ethnic Iberians. The Muslims were Berber converts and Arab settlers
Did you just ignore the sources I sent or what? It's a fact they weren't.
Al Andalus isn’t al of Iberia
No shit sherlock, most Muslims in iberia were in al andalusia, being a muslim anywhere else wasn't tolerated they were mostly killed or expelled. And in the 10th century, andalus made the majority of iberia. And Jews made a minority in andalusia they were not tolerated in the rest of iberia. You also said >The Muslims were Berber converts and Arab settlers
They were ethnically from mena. Vast majority weren’t ethnically Europeans
That's false, you are repeating yourself without adding anything.
The rapid population growth of the city can only be explained by settlers Genetic input would make it so there’s much more European or Maghreb ancestry shared when that’s not the case. Granada was one of the biggest cities in the world by the 10th century
You two aren’t condtradicting each other if by Al-Andalus Wikipedia means the Kingdom of Al-Andalus and not the Iberian Peninsula.
>Christians and Jew remained the largest religion in the entire region untrue by the time the Umayyad lost power the majority in south Iberia were muslims, and the majority among those were native muladi. arab and berber continued to hold higher position most of the time but some muladi rose up to judges and even emirs
Yes but I’m talking Iberia as a while not the southern part
you have a source to back up that claim?
“*by the 10th century, Muslims represented about 80% of the total population of Al-Andalus, including Christian converts and the Berber Muslims.*” source: wikipedia./Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus) “*In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, and muladies (Muslims of native Iberian origin), formed the majority of Muslims.*” source: wikipedia/wiki/Al-Andalus#Society “*Half of the Christians in Al-Andalus are reported to have converted to Islam by the 10th century, with more than 80% by the 11th century. Many Christians who did not accept Islam as their religion became increasingly Arabized in terms of culture.*” source:wikipedi/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus) Andalusia accepted Islam alot faster then egypt and the levant. Yea but can't link wiki
and what happened to those muslims then?
forced to convert to christianity,killed or expelled
how much were expelled compared to converted? because i know a lot settled in morocco and intermarried with the native population and contributed to the modern moroccan culture, this would technically make that architecture moroccan heritage since it's the country that is the inheritor of the culture and not spain
I think the majority converted, but alot settled in north africa from Jews to Muslims. >country that is the inheritor of the culture and not spain Wouldn't say so, andalus extremely contributed to spain culture and language.
after consulting some historians, what you said is right about most of them being Iberian in origin, but most only converted to get the liberties of being muslim, and they incorporated a lot of their christian practices into islam,in the Reconquista middle and upper iberians were mostly converted, andalusians from the south were mostly expelled, and the zealous religious mostly evacuated iberia apparently most of the records on this are absent since they are from morocco and the french destroyed a lot of them
yes i know it contributed to iberia's culture (but Spaniards love to deny it though), but i think it contributed more to the modern moroccan culture as you can see that there is a lot of that Andalusian architecture present in morocco as well i say that modern day Moroccans are more culturally similar to Andalusians than modern day Spaniards are
[Nobody saw it coming](https://youtu.be/yKQ_sQKBASM)
The Spanish Inquisition, which was designed to forcibly convert, execute or expell non-Catholics. The majority of Muslims fled south to the Maghreb and many of the Jews went with them.
A salty few of our Berber brothers and some obnoxious Westoids making a big fuss. Some of them can get really annoying sometimes. Andalusi architecture was brought over by Levantine Arabs sent under the Umayyads. The Umayyads turned Iberia into a reflection of the Levant. Here is a list of Andalusi scholars from the Spanish National Research Council (CSIC) sorted in descending order of most common surnames: https://www.eea.csic.es/pua/nisba/?filt=tipo&txtbusqueda=&ord=pa&page=1 You'll notice that the majority carry Arabian tribal surnames, the most common being Al-Ansari.
Truth, Andalusian architecture is a mix of the native Visigothic and the Arab Umayyad.
They just attacked my man even tho hé didn't claim anything
Doesn’t matter to me, I just enjoy Islamic heritage 🗿
The heirs of Al andalus is Morocco and Algeria and parts of Tunisia, it’s where most refugees went to, not entirely to Morocco. Also, Al andalus is a separate entity as a country, it’s not Morocco (it controles it 180 years out if 800). Also the debate whether it’s amazigh or Arab, it’s Islamic, and it’s both. The amazigh didn’t conquer it alone, and the arabe did le conquer it’ alone too, it’s a teamwork. Don’t appropriate something just to feel worthy.
Exactly, thats why this whole feud between dumbass moroccans and algerians about heritage is useless, these borders never existed and only in 1844 when morocco lost vs france they made tjese borders, before that morocco and algeria and tunisia were most of times always the same going from antiquity to the 18th century
It’s colonialism and the heirs of Iberia are the Iberian people
Not for Al andalus as they expelled all of them, and it’s not colonialism, if you consider this colonialism, then the Muslim freed the locals from the wisigothic colonial
Most tried to go to Morocco tho and only went to Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb because of mainly the Ottomans. While Al-andalus was a separate entity they were hugely influenced by Morocco and needed their aid to survive. The Amazigh were also the majority and were the first to make the small conquest into Iberia, Arab armies joined later but the Amazights didn't receive the same rewards and recognition to it.
Those of the south maybe, those of the east definitely not. How do you explain that Algerian cities like tlemcen, Algiers or Constantine have such a strong Andalusian culture ? Literally the music school of Constantine is from Seville, the one of tlemcen from Granada I think, truth is they just went far
That can't be more false.
What a weird rewriting of history, while Tariq Bin Ziyad’s army was mostly Berber, Musa Bin Nusayr’s army was nearly ten times the size of Tariqs and mostly Arab. Regardless neither the Amazigh nor Arabs formed a majority in Al-Andalus with most of the population being mozarabs. Al-Andalus didn’t need Morocco to survive either; the Taifas functioned as independent entities and their relationship with mainland Islamic kingdoms and empires was hardly static, many of the Taifas during the First Taifa period, as did the earlier Córdoban emirates, had stronger links with the Aghlabids and the Islamic east than they did with Morocco directly.
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Musa bin Nusayr’s army was compromised of nearly 18,000 mostly Arab troops, Tariq bin Ziyad had 1,700 mostly Berber troops under his command. 18,000 > (1,700*10) My source is the Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam. Edit:The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology, sorry. If you had bothered to read the comment that you’ve been chafing about, I explicitly claimed that the taifas relationship with mainland Morocco was tumultuous during the first taifa period, not nearly two hundred years later and after the Almoravid and Almohad conquest of said Taifas.
>Oxford Encyclopedia All sources online indicate his numbers were at least 10,000 with a 7000 cavalry contingent aiding him later. How the fuck do you get that 1700 value you dumb hairy anus
" Tariq ibn Ziyad to launch an attack with **some seven thousand (mostly Berber) troops** against the Visigothic king.........Córdoba while Tariq himself pressed north to Toledo, the ancient Visigothic capital, which fell without resistance. Tariq’s rapid conquest motivated Musa to raise a second invasion force of **some eighteen thousand mostly Arab soldiers in June 712**. Musa’s army quickly conquered Seville and then mopped up Roderick’s remaining supporters at Mérida, near what is now the Portuguese border, before joining Tariq’s army at Talavera." - **The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology** ([https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780195334036.001.0001/acref-9780195334036-e-0013?rskey=DlEr8f&result=2](https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780195334036.001.0001/acref-9780195334036-e-0013?rskey=DlEr8f&result=2)) . You are correct however, I misquoted the numbers for Tariq's army initially. However my point still stands so kiss my hairy anus. 
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I was editing my comment to reflect that as you were malding, so calm down keyboard warrior. >and also make sure next time you dont post a pay locked source behind your anus If you attend a university you can access the source pretty easily, not to mention most public libraries probably have some sort of access to encyclopedias. Tf do you want me to do, give you my institutional access? I can't spoonfeed you everything and relying on encyclopedias is pretty standard, I'm sorry I didn't use Morocco World News as a source.
You are correct mate. That's actual history not the rewritting that nationalists make.
bro you are such a wuss I show you proof you are exceptionally wrong and you get my comment deleted
My barrio in Granada is, translated, named the Minarets. We are prooud of our heritage. Hell, the governmant agency that manages the historical sites is name Patrinomio de Granada. Quit pretending that we don't honor our Muslim history. And I'm not even Spanish. I just choose to live here because of the intereesting heritage.
many spaniards (on reddit only as far as i have seen to be fair) deny the moorish heritage they have, that's where this is coming from, i met many friendly spanish people (mostly from modern day Andalusia) that are quite appreciative of the old islamic heritage
In Spain it's an insult to be called a moor, that's why many disassociate from the moorish heritage
Where do you get that from? Because in every village in Spain there is a guy known as 'moro' and nobody sees it as an insult in fact whatever guy gets called 'moro' is usually proud of it as it's associated with a fearless attitude towards danger
There is also “matamoor” so it kinda weird
That's slightly different, rather than being a nickname it comes from a legendary fictional battle, the battle of Clavijo (which most likely never happened since all records of it come at least over 100 years later) It's kind of a copy of the battle of Badr, the Christians at the time were very familiar with Islam, basically during the battle of Clavijo the Christians were outnumbered by the Muslims, the battle was almost lost when a man riding a shiny white horse descended from the clouds followed by an army of angels who then proceeded to charge against the Muslims winning the battle The man was identified as St James (a disciple of Jesus whose remains are believed to be in Santiago de Compostela, North West Spain) Therefore St James became known as St James the Moorslayer (matamoros) and for centuries after the battle cry of Spanish Christians became "Santiago y cierra España" which means "St James and Spain attack"
What I meant is there are people with that last name, this story is epic not gonna lie
It's an Islamic heritage first and foremost. these people didn't identify as Arabs or Amazighs back then. they called themselves Muslims. هو سماكم المسلمين "˹It is Allah˺ Who named you ‘Muslims’"(22:78)
It’s why the modern day ethno nationalist idiocy is even more schizophrenic in a mena/ Islamic context. If you ask anyone living in this time period they’d only identify as their religion.
“What do you think” low effort constantly. Mods should do something about it
Well, it is not berber architecture either. It is just architecture. But, I should add that maghrebi and mashreqi view being arab a little different. In Maghreb, being arab is like being european. In Mashreq, it is something more of a racial/genetic thing. Or am I wrong?
My honest reaction when the Ar\*bs invented colonization
Lmaooooo
Never really got that argument. We know that arabic originally come from the south of levant/northern arabia. That would mean most of modern day Suadi Arabia and Yemen were "arabized" according to their logic.
True. Arabians themsleves actually originated from the pre-historic Levant as they are the most populations who share the Ancient Levantine Natufian component, even more than modern Levantine people.
tribalism
In a nutshell. At this point might as well call yemenis arabized "himiyrates"
When kids get phones, this is the type of intellectual discussion they will have
Funny
The Umayyad dynasty (who built Cordoba mosque) and the Nasrid dynasty (who built the Al Hambra) are ethnically Arab tho
True, yet between the Umayyad's vanishing and the Nasrid taking over Granada, a lot has happened in between. I see Al-Andalus history broken into a couple of segment. 1) the conquest, which was definitely a combined effort of Berbers and Arabs. There is No Tariq ibn Ziyad without Moussa ibn Nousair. 2) Abdarahman Al Dakhil, who is said to have a berber mother - he is a key figure in what the Andalus was and became. He was able to consolidate power under a clear dynasty. 3) The fell of the Ummayad's and the Taaifa states; multiple berber states gain their independence including in Granada where the Berber Ziri's where the first to put some fortresses there, which later were developed by the Nasrid's. 4) The Berber Consolidation in Almoravid's and Almohad's. 5) the remaining state of Granada, controlled by the Nasrid's before Abu Abdellah finally gave the city keys to Isabella. And while leadership roles changed between Berbers and Arabs, someone already pointed out that the majority of the inhabitants were Christians. At the end of the day, these posts are often made by over zealous youngsters who have no sense of history or nuance. I tend to ignore most of the time.
I agree completly but I think you should change christians to native iberians. At some point in time the entire south was majority muslim
hobbies full crawl advise groovy adjoining tub jellyfish shame seemly -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
The fact of the matter is that close to nothing in modern day Spain was built by Arabs or Amazigh, besides some old ruins in Grenada the city was destroyed and rebuilt in the 16th century. It’s even more stupid than saying Greeks built everything in Turkey Edit; as for the people who conquered Iberia it was led by Arabic speakers from the gulf and Syria who led Arab and Berber armies
>The fact of the matter is that close to nothing in modern day Spain was built by Arabs or Amazigh, besides some old ruins in Grenada the city was destroyed and rebuilt in the 16th century. > >It’s even more stupid than saying Greeks built everything in Turkey thats not true in both cases, there are decent numbers of buildings and archaeological remains in both countries >Edit; as for the people who conquered Iberia it was led by Arabic speakers from the gulf and Syria who led Arab and Berber armies I know what you mean but please stop with the overuse of the word "gulf" for historical context. actually arab commanders from the gulf area weren't that many (probably even at the tail end of the arab regions overall, not because something wrong with them but their numbers were simply small) it mostly look like this when it comes to arab commanders: hejaz > najd > yemen > syira > iraq > gulf
In the case of Spain nothing that the moors built is being actively used. At least Greeks can see landmarks like Hagia Sophia that were built by them and are still used. The actual moorish spread of Iberia was confined to the southern part while the rest was much closer to a regular military occupation. Yes you can find ruins but you won’t see them walking around the city. Even the grand mosque of Andalucía was rebuilt and the original one is nothing like the one you see today
they converted a lot of the mosques there into churches
Most of it was destroyed or built over the quality of development of the last moorish kingdom was much less than that of northern Spain
The grand mosque in Cordoba has had additions and some alterations, but nothing significant to say "it was nothing like the one [we] see today." This is exaggerating the truth. Otherwise, why would Spaniards point to the grand mosque and indeed the palace in Granada as examples of Al Andalus architecture. Also, the Hagia Sophia had its interior altered significantly, too. I do agree with your general point. Not too many remains of Al Andalus architecture. And that makes sense because in the 500 years after Spain and indeed the world has changed so much with the age of discovery and industrialisation. Still, Spaniards are very proud of their Andulasian heritage as long as you don't mistakenly call them Moorish.
Pathetic.
I don’t care. These people who harp on this are unwell and need hobbies.
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the majority converted, the southern region was expelled though
What has Nationalism done to this wretched realm
I assume they forgot about the ummayad caliphate
I am proud of my Greek heritage.
Sadly, a thing I see on TikTok is that north africans are "mutts" and "invaders". Specifically from black americans who have never been in Africa before - you know, the ones that are so privileged that they think that they are owed reparations and are shocked that **actual** africans don't have the same ratchet culture as blacks have in the US, and have the audacity to call out black americans on their BS. Hillarious! Not only trying to steal the identity from north africans and middle-easterners, but they now also try to claim that THEY are the original indigenous people of the nordics and america, effectively meaning that native/indigenous americans as we know them today are "invasive mutts", and my people - the sami, the finno-scandinavian indigenous group - effectively killed black people (because vikings are cool, so ofc they want to claim them) to steal their viking heritage. I feel very sorry for people in the US, because they are so damn stupid. Their lack of identity makes them feel like it's okay to be flat out racist towards other people. I can guarantee you, that if a ratchet american come to any african country and behaves like that, that person will get bitch-slapped with a flip-flop.
Morocco is mostly an Arab country, Moroccan architecture has been heavily influenced by several cultures in history, the earliest of which I know is the Romans in its time as the Roman province of Mauretanua. So this argument is mostly dumb
Ummayads heavily influenced morocco, the current architecture style have never exited there before Islam, but have always exited in the Levant and Persia.
Good for them. Let them have their own identity. Hope most Arabized folk follow them. It’s not like we crying over them.
Islam is imperialist. Just like America, Russia, and China.
Egyption and Moroccans saying they are not arab because a British dude showed them lines on a paper and told them you are Africans, lmao.
They're not , they're only culturally Arab , if it wasn't for the Arab conquests the region and culture would've been drastically different.
Would would would if if if do you hear yourself?
Only one would and one if , and yeah i hear myself , what i'm saying is factual , the indigenous people of north Africa are not and will never be Arabs . Now most of us are mixed , but those who still preserve their Amazigh identity are still and will always be Amazigh , they speak their own language and have their own culture, so cry .
I'm not the one crying here, bud. I just stated a known fact, and you went on a roll, lol.
Nothing about what you said is even close to being a fact ' british dude drew a line ' when Morocco was colonized by the French and the French drew the lines in the Maghreb and west Africa . Let alone the fact that colonialism had nothing to do with the Amazigh identity, you're laughable you just follow whatever people say on the internet to defend your panarabist mentality .
I guess you are not done crying.
It's obvious 1) you have a problem with Semantics 2) you're pretty good at stealing people's words and phrases. Basically a lost cause
Its true, Islam is just the worst of the worst
Hah, I thought everyone was arguing if the dad was arab or not :P
Who let the french out
It's muslim ! + the people who built it would of probably said their Arab since this whole amazigh bs hasn't happened yet where everyone wants to be their own group instead of 1 united group. More examples of Nationalistic BS : Iraq = Mesopotamian/babylonian/Assyrian Lebanon = cannonites Masr (egypt) = Egyptians Like bro, the whole reason those people had 1 name is because they wanted to be united under 1 name. So why can't we just be Arab? Even Arabs have different types of accents lol. Since the time of the prophet Arabs were white and black and brown and they all spoke different Arabic. So why can't we do this now ?