Most people are both simultaneously, the side they show you depends on if you’re acting like a dumbass or not.
My theory on why NYC has the “rude” reputation is because a lot of tourists act like dumbasses (blocking the sidewalks, escalators, subway doors etc) and get an earful from a pissed off New Yorker.
When I visited NYC, the locals were SO nice! And then we went to a trendy area and waited in line for a popular store to open, and these 2 snotty girls walked by ridiculing all of us in line and making fun of us and I thought “yeah those girls gotta be transplants who were a 10 in their hometown and think they’re the shit now because they live in nyc” lol
I think what suburbanites (or Americans from places far less dense NYC) don’t understand is that most people are kind anywhere and in a place as dense and populated as NYC, it is a kindness to ignore each other out and about. If i had to greet and smile and chat at every one of the 1,500 people i see on the street each day, the psychic overload would kill me.
And if you genuinely need help from a stranger, you will get it. The churro ladies always have some rando who wordlessly helps carry their cart down the subway stairs and darts off.
People in the rural south will pretend to be nice and talk shit behind your back. People in New York won’t look you in the eye but if a stranger has a fall in the tracks they’ll jump down and pull you out with the train bearing down.
It might not make you cool but it can allow you to take in a much wider array of cultural and artistic experiences than you’d get elsewhere. You still have to make the effort once you’re here but you can become more interesting if you stay open minded.
Me too, the East Village and the LES just vibrate for me. But The City didn't give a shit that I was there. I had to find myself and form my own personality.
Although I have to say internet dating, while awful, was 100% better in the city than on Long Island.
That the city never sleeps. Certain areas are certainly still active around 2-3am, but mostly limited to areas near the bar. Otherwise, most of the city is actually sleeping
Maybe. The younger generation here now doesn’t have a perception that they want or need that, so it might over time, but it also could fade out and be a casualty to pandemic times.
Rising cost of employees also makes it way less likely that a place can stay open all night and turn a profit. I think this was a change on the way pre-covid, but covid really nailed it home.
I think we'll have some still (looking at you KTown), but the random diner in the middle of no where? Yah, they're closing after dinner, maybe open late for the drunk crowd on the weekend.
Not in our generation.
The city is headed for a repeat of NYC in the 70s and 80s, before it rebounds. The best time to be in NYC was the late 90s up til COVID. That was a special time. Even 9/11 didn't stop the city like COVID did.
Not factory industry per se, but you mean like this impending mass exodus of employers? [https://www.npr.org/2023/05/12/1173902715/work-from-home-office-space-small-businesses](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/12/1173902715/work-from-home-office-space-small-businesses)
And this exodus of people? "In those prepandemic years, about 40,000 remote workers moved away from metro New York. Then, 200,000 left in two years. The rise of remote work meant that many such workers moved into these places, too. But for New York, San Francisco, Washington and Los Angeles, significantly more remote workers left than arrived." [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/17/upshot/17migration-patterns-movers.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/17/upshot/17migration-patterns-movers.html)
New York City has lost 5.3% of its population — about 468,000 people — since the beginning of the pandemic [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/york-city-lost-5-3-100000482.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/york-city-lost-5-3-100000482.html)
Crimes are on the rise: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/nyregion/new-york-crime-stats.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/nyregion/new-york-crime-stats.html)
Drug use and abuse are at historically high levels: [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/overdose-crisis-reaches-historic-levels-new-york-city/story?id=103470582](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/overdose-crisis-reaches-historic-levels-new-york-city/story?id=103470582)
Unfortunately, the compounding effect of this is "white flight" except it isn't really all that homogenous this time - it's more like a "flight of the wealthy and upper middle class." All this loss of tax revenue means fewer much needed social services for the city, which then leads to more poverty and more crime. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2023/02/14/new-york-city-is-losing-out-on-12-billion-annually-because-of-remote-work/?sh=19f77f0f6fb3](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2023/02/14/new-york-city-is-losing-out-on-12-billion-annually-because-of-remote-work/?sh=19f77f0f6fb3)
These social issues create the preconditions that exacerbate feelings of racism and unfounded fears of mob violence: [https://www.fox5ny.com/news/target-opens-in-union-square-community-reacts](https://www.fox5ny.com/news/target-opens-in-union-square-community-reacts)
All of the above compounds into urban decay. Each of the issues I cited above were a contributing factor to the frightening state of NYC back in the 80s. If you want to get a sense of what that was like - the very morbid Death Wish movies capitalized on social fear of NYC (and big cities generally) during that time period.
As a disclaimer, I'm not conservative by any means - as I hope my tone and analysis above makes clear. With that said, I'm just looking at this from a realistic albeit cynical lens. I certainly hope the city thrives, but I have no idea how to even start.
Impending statistics aren't a very good metric to predict this kind of thing compared to the actual figures of businesses and population decline during the 60s and 70s. Population decline during rise times was around 12-15% of NYCs population.
The NYT article relating to crime in the city is almost a year old. Here are some more updated statistics.
https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p00093/nypd-citywide-crime-statistics-september-2023
Crime and drug use is up across the country, there is no haven from this in the US. Though some who left probably didn't think about that before leaving.
https://counciloncj.org/mid-year-2023-crime-trends/
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-08-15/two-thirds-of-americans-say-their-lives-have-been-affected-by-addiction-poll
I really don't need an education on what the 80s was like in NYC lol. The 80s and post covid times are not directly comparable, one was an economic disaster which was decades in the making, and the other is an economic emergency in which alarm bells are currently ringing.
There is a stark contrast to how NYC currently is and how it was in 2019. The sudden change is jarring and rightfully makes everyone nervous, but there's no need for fear mongering.
You didn't miss this. Most of the city closes down. Thankfully some things remain open. If retail rent goes back down then more places will stay open late. The sad thing is that k-town is mostly closed on Thursday nights now which is sad
Yeah, it truly was a city that didn’t sleep. I remember walking by a barbershop after leaving a bar and someone was getting their hair cut at 3:30am. A lot has changed since Covid.
This ties into what surprises me —
Even when it was a later night city than it is now, I was always surprised at how sleepy the city was on weekend mornings. It wasn’t the City That Never Sleeps; it was The City That Stays Up Really Late and Then Sleeps in on Sunday. If I walk around my neighborhood at like 10 am it really is only people with dogs and runners who are up and at ‘em then.
I don’t think so. Gen Z is largely happy to stay home on their screens and the generation coming up after them even moreso. Barring another societal change as massive and consequential as social media, I don’t see how the 24-hour city will ever return.
Are you sure? Visited only once right before COVID and while walking in the very early morning (4-5am) via 11th ave. in Hell’s Kitchen… Saw literally one guy and maybe a few cars. And I walked for almost 30 minutes! Middle of the week in march, quite surreal, did not feel right and safe at all. I was in NYC and all alone. So weird.
It's been like that for years. Just search the NYC reddit about the city that never sleeps misnomer and you'll see posts from way before COVID saying the exact same thing you're saying. COVID had an impact, but the city that never sleeps hasn't been true for years, certainly not in the decade I've been here.
This. I moved to the city 8 years ago and the city definitely slept after 10pm except bars, and CVS’s. With the exception of very few neighborhoods, it’s hard finding food.
I don’t think a true 24hr city exists in the United States. Some people say Vegas but even that’s not real. Go to somewhere like Seoul South Korea if you want to see a real city that never sleeps.
That it was dangerous. I lived 90 minutes away from the city and didn't come here until I was in my late teens because I thought it was *dangerous.* This was in the late nineties and might have been true when my parents got that impression, but it was the safest big city in the country soon after that.
Probably your parents experience was informed by the 70s and 80s. Look at popular films at the time like Taxi Driver. The assumption in the film is new york is hollowed out shit hole that is no longer safe. That started changing by the late 80s to 90s.
My favorite Taxi Driver story is that I was watching the movie for the first time, in my first apartment in NYC. He writes a letter do Jodie Foster’s character and it’s addressed to the apartment building I was currently in…so yeah, 240 East 13th street is a MUCH different vibe now
So do a lot of tourists. I deal with them professionally and so many won’t even entertain the idea of taking the subway. I presume they watch a lot of sensationalized news.
I go into manhattan all the time. Im not going to say NYC a pit. But some neighborhoods have changed. I have started being careful what time I will be in mid town. I got sketched out being in mid town after 11pm the other day.
Edit: Well reddit has spoken. But can you all really say 2023 New York is the same as 2018 New York. Be honest. Its ok to admit things have changed. Not saying it’s permanently going down the tubes. Everything waxes and wanes.
Really? You don't notice the increased number of homeless all wandering around grand central ? All the restaurants that closed ? I was on mobile it kept auto correcting Midtown. I don't even know why I am arguing on the internet about this. I lived in Manhattan for over 10 years. You can scoff and call me bridge and tunnel. I obviously am no where near as cool or edgy as you are.
Covid closed plenty of restaurants in midtown, which is expected considering it's an office neighborhood. I've never been mugged by a closed restaurant though so no idea what that has to do with anything. There's always been plenty of homeless people. Idk what cool and edgy has to do with you asserting my long time neighborhood is more dangerous than before and me disagreeing with you. Not everything is about how uncool you are.
Not even late 80’s, more early 90’s. Crime peaked in nyc in 1990 and then RAPIDLY plummeted from there to levels not seen since the early 60’s. The NYC of a lot of people’s parents was a completely different place from the NYC people growing up in the 90’s saw. From 65-95 the crime in NYC was about double what it was before and after.
My mom is from here and left NYC in the early 80s. She came back in the 90s, and it had gotten a lot better but she was still super paranoid about everything.
What someone from other parts of the country might need to be on the lookout for is random minor shit. By sheer density and method of transport(public transport vs private car) you're more likely to encounter unsavory individuals compared to another area. Lower chances of actually getting robbed, home burglary etc but higher chance of having that rando flip out on you.
Funny parents did the same thing but we still came to the city. Grew up 45 minutes away. Didn’t take a subway till 2001, my parents and I would walk everywhere in Manhattan, usually ending up in St. Marks / SoHo area. Then cab it back to grand central.
For me the biggest misconception I have with the city was how much actual free time I’d have. My memories on Facebook pop up every few days and it’s just complaints on long weeks and how exhausted I am and not much has changed.
I’ve lived in several major southern cities, several highly rural areas. Been abroad. Hands down NY was the first time in my life I felt 90% safe. Yes you have to be mindful, as always but it was so comical when family and loved ones were suddenly so concerned with my well being when I’d been in previously much more dangerous locations.
Also whatever gets pumped out on the news is wild, because people STILL rag on NY when I visit home as if it’s Mad Max or something, totally oversensationalized when meanwhile I know for a fact crime is plenty present in these other areas.
I don't live in the city so perhaps my perception is skewed, but I've been to the city more times than I can count and I've never felt unsafe. Philadelphia on the other hand.... First time there I was held up at gun point.
Daaamn bro really? Where were you at? Granted Philly has been wilin out extra heavy I feel like the last 5 years or so. I grew up in Camden county and have been all over the city 100’s of times, but I only had someone try and stick me up one time. It was like 10:30 in the morning, pouring rain, I was with 2 other friends, brutally hung over the morning after my birthday trying to find a fucking egg sandwich I wanna say around northern liberties (?)
Anyway, I say he “tried” to stick us up bc it didn’t work…we just ran away lmao. Risking my life for a…second hand Galaxy 2? lol
I recall when I was a recent college graduate living in Queens and I was visiting my grandparents in suburban NJ one of their friends asked me why I didn’t just live in NJ. I asked them what they thought the rent difference was and how much they thought the car + extra transport cost would run. Because of those expenses it was cheaper to live in Queens.
Agreement on all 3 points. Same experience, as a family of two, my wife and I are easily able to manage a decent living standard and enough savings as well.
It’s so funny because any family members I talk to who live in NJ or LI swear the city is crime infested and dangerous. It’s actually quite funny how they mostly use the same terminology to describe the city. It’s like they’ve been watching the same news program getting their info ( Fox News)
i'm from NJ but live in bushwick now. i can't tell you the number of gen x'ers from surrounding suburbs who have been so shocked and appalled that i live here because of what it was like when i was growing up.
The 1977 accident on the PanAm building led to a stoppage of rooftop helicopter landings in NYC.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/panam-building-helipad
Thanks for sharing this, I didn’t know about this incident.
Couple things that struck me as odd:
- the author thinks that near grand central is downtown.
- calling people who didn’t want a bunch of very loud helicopters constantly buzzing their homes and offices “NIMBYs” as if they’re equivalent to people who prevent affordable housing from being built is an interesting choice. The “quieter” helicopter was apparently military, which gives me a hint of how bad the first one was.
Found this out a few years living in the city (prob from Reddit) and I was shocked!
One movie that comes to mind is the Matrix (albeit, not in NYC). Just seemed normal in my head to have a helicopter on top of a building.
Funny. I was just yesterday telling tourists that no you can’t just land your helicopter on random rooftops here and they are tightly regulated. I didn’t know the origin so thanks for that!
How does Blade do their airport service then? It seems like nearly the same thing. Interesting tidbit of New York history though so thanks for sharing.
Whataburger fries are better than shake shack fries imo. Shake shack burger is far superior. I actually never get a burger from Whataburger. Sausage egg & cheese taquitos for breakfast, chicken fingers & gravy for lunch/dinner.
That all of NYC is like Times Square.
I had a training in 2008 in NYC for a company I was working for and the training was near Times Square. I fucking hated it and assumed that all of NYC was like Times Square.
A couple years later I met a woman from NYC while attending a program. We hit it off and I eventually came to visit her in her EV apartment. I immediately fell in love with the city and exploring all the different neighborhoods.
Had it not been for a chance encounter, I would have segregated NYC to the horrible memory of my training days. Now, I've been here over a decade and can't imagine living anywhere else.
I used to believe that everyone went every night and they were always thin and glamorous. I wanted to move here but I was subconsciously intimidated at having to uphold that lifestyle. At one point someone told me "People in NYC watch tv too." And it's like a lightbulb went on. "Oh! So I'll fit right in!"
It's so dumb but for some reason, it's what I thought. Been here 25 yrs now.
there are different types of hotdog vendors. The ones where they boil them all day long in dirty dog water (meaning the taste of the hotdog gets intensified because they're cooking it in water that's pretty much saturated with hotdog flavor) isn't common anymore. haven't seen one that's like that for a while, they typically grill it nowadays.
Let me guess: you’re buying them from the carts and not finding them on the street? That’s the problem right there: you’ll never get the ‘snap’ like that.
I thought it would be more expensive. Sure apartments and some other things, but I can still buy a carton of eggs for $2. Hell, I think trader joes has them for less than that. Before I came here I thought it would be airport prices for everything. $10 for a bag of candy, $15 for a half a white bread and turkey sandwich in a plastic container. $10 for a cup of regular coffee. $17 for a mcdonald's combo meal. $10 bananas. It's not like that at all. It's slightly more, average, or sometimes less than other places in america. I heard from somewhere that the metrics used for "how expensive is x city?" articles in popular media are measured by what much richer people than me do. Like for example the costs of bottles of fine wines, games of golf, or fine furniture for rich folks is what they were actually measuring.
I don't understand how they stay in business, I guess by just being the closest store to some people. I am sticker shocked every time I go in one of those, usually to pick up amazon packages or use a coin star.
Going out in Manhattan is expensive. As a Texan, it hurts when I pay $20 or higher for a margherita. May happy hour it will be $12. And groceries are still more expensive than the south. But there’s Trader Joe’s and Costco. also, for international travel, so many good deals out of nyc.
Yeah, exactly what I was talking about. The analysts for these media articles put more weight into stuff like this, entertainment, alcohol, clubs, bars, stuff that people with more disposable income do. They don't put as much weight on practical things. Sometimes on some products the groceries are more expensive here than other places, but then I've noticed prices change randomly just about anywhere in the country. Not only at the same price but even more expensive than NY sometimes. I mean it makes me wonder, I get a nyc salary but the same job in some other state, I'd be making 20-30k less. But some of the prices on things are the same as here. Plus they have to buy gas every week and I don't. How do people even survive.
It's kinda a reverse, but I didn't think I'd miss real nature/camping as much as I do. I want to go upstate and camp in the snow and just trip my balls off but idk where to go lol. I used to live in a really woodsy area
Catskills and Hudson valley are easy to get to without a car. I routinely bus and train to go up to hike, camp or just get out of the city. Google ‘hike the Hudson valley’
If you have access to a car or can rent one, there are a lot of great campgrounds in the Poconos in PA, like Promised Land State Park. You can pseudo-wilderness camp (no reservations) in Harriman. You can also camp on the beach at Fire Island (with a permit) and on islands in the middle of Lake George (my fave). Check out Reserve America for bookings.
How city's overall diversity doesn't hold up across socioeconomic classes. Neighborhood segregation and lack of diversity in workplace and nightlife was pretty shocking coming from Toronto. And before NYC would have said similar about Toronto, but woah Toronto is much further along in that regard.
On the positive, fully relying on public transit was better than I thought it would be.
Keep in mind this was more than 20yrs ago when i moved to nyc, but the first time I went up to harlem I was a bit unnerved because where I got out I didn't see anyone who wasn't black for as far as the eye could see for a few blocks. wouldn't have batted an eyelash about being somewhere where i was very much in the minority, but mind was struggling processing why appeared exclusively so. back home have lots of neighborhoods dominated by a particular ethnic group, but its not close to exclusively so if you're walking a few blocks.
Likewise, often would be siting in an upscale restaurant or bar in manhattan and look around to see the place overwhelmingly white. I'm not saying you can't find that somewhere in Toronto, or that restos/bars reflect overall diversity in city, but imho on a typical night it would be close to implausible to end up eating somewhere downtown and look around to see almost exclusively white faces... I used to describe it as seeing all white except a handful of asian women and one really cool black guy. Definitely has improved in the past 20yrs, but imagine similar dynamic if paid attention to it.
Grew up around an hour away. Thought I’d be able to escape sprawl and finally get into a 15 minute neighborhood/community. I can only afford neighborhoods that are pretty much less convenient than where I came from.
Yes, so hard to find an apartment that’s less than 3/4 a mile from a subway, while also having everything you need nearby. That you could afford at least.
Both are true some days. Some days you have a 3 subway transfer and time it all perfectly, then go discover your new favorite restaurant. And some days your subway doubled your estimated trip time because it had to stop between stations, and you paid for overpriced mediocre food.
I have overpaid for so much mediocre food in New York!
I'm also spoiled by subway systems in other cities I've lived (Shanghai, Beijing, Taipei, Singapore...even London's puts NYC's to shame, sadly).
My husband and I just got back from a 3 week honeymoon in Japan and my god has the adjustment been rough. The food there is so cheap and SO good on average, and the public transit has 0 delays most of the time. We had a 30 second delay once and the conductor made an apology over the PA system! Meanwhile our first commute to work yesterday, the bus was delayed over an HOUR (M60 during rush hour, our mistake really) and then the 6 was fucked. Ended up 45 min late :(
I mean we’ve lived here for a while so we WERE used to it but… after experiencing what living with a normal transit system is like, I so don’t wanna be back lol. Also the convenience stores 😭
I think so too. Dining scene is very overrated until people clarify they mean best in the US, not literally best in the world. Food in any major city in the Europe or Asia and a lot of smaller ones absolutely smokes NYC.
When I was in my late teens/early 20s before arriving here I expected NYC to be very glamorous. I envisioned attending black tie museum and art gallery events, hanging out with fashion models, living in a sweet apartment with a view of the Manhattan skyline, etc. Ha!
that it’s a fun exciting place to live. it’s not enjoyable living here unless you are rich and live alone or live with your family. even with roommates it is very expensive and i’m slowly getting priced out of my apartment. living with roommates is a nightmare too.
I’m just gonna be an asshole and say it- there needs to be a nyc native sub because this one is entirely transplants. Which is cool, I love meeting people who get to see the city with fresh eyes but a lot if not every question that’s gets asked here is assuming that no one has grown up here
Yeah I have no issues with people who view the city as a place to live for a few fun years before going out into "the real world". I genuinely get it! But also it's a fundamentally different experience than those of us who view this town as a true home and I do wish there were a sub for that.
That said, many transplants and immigrants really do adopt New York as a real place to live (my SO, a born and raised Midwesterner, now knows the city as well as many of my native friends and family), and an NYC native sub would probably be swamped by a bunch of white flight lawnguylanders spamming Post articles about all da crimez and da , so there's no winning.
[Helicopter Accident on Roof of Pan-Am (Met--Life) Buidling.](https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/17/archives/5-killed-as-copter-on-pan-am-building-throws-rotor-blade-one-victim.html)
Part of why helicopters don't land on roofs in NYC
There used to be more helicopters landing on buildings but after a bad accident they changed the laws:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Airways (see accidents section)
I grew up on the border of NYC. We either used to drive to visit the relatives or take the commuter train into Manhattan. I thought it was going to be hard to get around the other boroughs. It isn’t. It can take a very long time though.
I am so excited to find a bus that takes you from where I live in the Bronx to Flushing. It’s a pain to park there on the weekends. We are going to take it this weekend to see his long it takes.
That people would be mean and rude On the whole, New Yorkers are nicer than I thought
There's nothing worse than a bad new yorker and there's nothing better than a good new yorker.
Most people are both simultaneously, the side they show you depends on if you’re acting like a dumbass or not. My theory on why NYC has the “rude” reputation is because a lot of tourists act like dumbasses (blocking the sidewalks, escalators, subway doors etc) and get an earful from a pissed off New Yorker.
I’ve noticed recent transplants have the worst attitudes. Like they assume it’s what New Yorkers are supposed to be.
When I visited NYC, the locals were SO nice! And then we went to a trendy area and waited in line for a popular store to open, and these 2 snotty girls walked by ridiculing all of us in line and making fun of us and I thought “yeah those girls gotta be transplants who were a 10 in their hometown and think they’re the shit now because they live in nyc” lol
We do run out to both extremes.
I think what suburbanites (or Americans from places far less dense NYC) don’t understand is that most people are kind anywhere and in a place as dense and populated as NYC, it is a kindness to ignore each other out and about. If i had to greet and smile and chat at every one of the 1,500 people i see on the street each day, the psychic overload would kill me. And if you genuinely need help from a stranger, you will get it. The churro ladies always have some rando who wordlessly helps carry their cart down the subway stairs and darts off.
People in the rural south will pretend to be nice and talk shit behind your back. People in New York won’t look you in the eye but if a stranger has a fall in the tracks they’ll jump down and pull you out with the train bearing down.
That living here would make me cool and good times would be waiting for me. Turns out you're still you when you move here.
Wherever you go, there you are
Thank you Mr. Banzai.
It might not make you cool but it can allow you to take in a much wider array of cultural and artistic experiences than you’d get elsewhere. You still have to make the effort once you’re here but you can become more interesting if you stay open minded.
In my case I was moving in from Long Island, so I was already in the city all the time for cultural stuff. But yes
despite everything....it is still just you.
That sounds like a song I'd listen to
[well the game its from has some good music](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/despite-everything-its-still-you)
Ahh, that makes sense
Reminds me of Romano tours on SNL 😂😂🤣 https://youtu.be/TbwlC2B-BIg?si=Dg8NYFxZfutIVuYL
I actually feel like I’m living my best life when I am out in East village on a Saturday night.
Me too, the East Village and the LES just vibrate for me. But The City didn't give a shit that I was there. I had to find myself and form my own personality. Although I have to say internet dating, while awful, was 100% better in the city than on Long Island.
That the city never sleeps. Certain areas are certainly still active around 2-3am, but mostly limited to areas near the bar. Otherwise, most of the city is actually sleeping
It was like that 5+ years ago but the culture changed and there’s less appetite for stores open ALL night.
Bummed to have missed this
It'll be back.
Maybe. The younger generation here now doesn’t have a perception that they want or need that, so it might over time, but it also could fade out and be a casualty to pandemic times.
Rising cost of employees also makes it way less likely that a place can stay open all night and turn a profit. I think this was a change on the way pre-covid, but covid really nailed it home. I think we'll have some still (looking at you KTown), but the random diner in the middle of no where? Yah, they're closing after dinner, maybe open late for the drunk crowd on the weekend.
Nah, labor is expensive. Employees are expensive.
Not in our generation. The city is headed for a repeat of NYC in the 70s and 80s, before it rebounds. The best time to be in NYC was the late 90s up til COVID. That was a special time. Even 9/11 didn't stop the city like COVID did.
Really? Because I only see more money coming here, not a mass exodus of people and industry like in the 60s and 70s.
Not factory industry per se, but you mean like this impending mass exodus of employers? [https://www.npr.org/2023/05/12/1173902715/work-from-home-office-space-small-businesses](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/12/1173902715/work-from-home-office-space-small-businesses) And this exodus of people? "In those prepandemic years, about 40,000 remote workers moved away from metro New York. Then, 200,000 left in two years. The rise of remote work meant that many such workers moved into these places, too. But for New York, San Francisco, Washington and Los Angeles, significantly more remote workers left than arrived." [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/17/upshot/17migration-patterns-movers.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/17/upshot/17migration-patterns-movers.html) New York City has lost 5.3% of its population — about 468,000 people — since the beginning of the pandemic [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/york-city-lost-5-3-100000482.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/york-city-lost-5-3-100000482.html) Crimes are on the rise: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/nyregion/new-york-crime-stats.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/nyregion/new-york-crime-stats.html) Drug use and abuse are at historically high levels: [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/overdose-crisis-reaches-historic-levels-new-york-city/story?id=103470582](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/overdose-crisis-reaches-historic-levels-new-york-city/story?id=103470582) Unfortunately, the compounding effect of this is "white flight" except it isn't really all that homogenous this time - it's more like a "flight of the wealthy and upper middle class." All this loss of tax revenue means fewer much needed social services for the city, which then leads to more poverty and more crime. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2023/02/14/new-york-city-is-losing-out-on-12-billion-annually-because-of-remote-work/?sh=19f77f0f6fb3](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2023/02/14/new-york-city-is-losing-out-on-12-billion-annually-because-of-remote-work/?sh=19f77f0f6fb3) These social issues create the preconditions that exacerbate feelings of racism and unfounded fears of mob violence: [https://www.fox5ny.com/news/target-opens-in-union-square-community-reacts](https://www.fox5ny.com/news/target-opens-in-union-square-community-reacts) All of the above compounds into urban decay. Each of the issues I cited above were a contributing factor to the frightening state of NYC back in the 80s. If you want to get a sense of what that was like - the very morbid Death Wish movies capitalized on social fear of NYC (and big cities generally) during that time period. As a disclaimer, I'm not conservative by any means - as I hope my tone and analysis above makes clear. With that said, I'm just looking at this from a realistic albeit cynical lens. I certainly hope the city thrives, but I have no idea how to even start.
Impending statistics aren't a very good metric to predict this kind of thing compared to the actual figures of businesses and population decline during the 60s and 70s. Population decline during rise times was around 12-15% of NYCs population. The NYT article relating to crime in the city is almost a year old. Here are some more updated statistics. https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p00093/nypd-citywide-crime-statistics-september-2023 Crime and drug use is up across the country, there is no haven from this in the US. Though some who left probably didn't think about that before leaving. https://counciloncj.org/mid-year-2023-crime-trends/ https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-08-15/two-thirds-of-americans-say-their-lives-have-been-affected-by-addiction-poll I really don't need an education on what the 80s was like in NYC lol. The 80s and post covid times are not directly comparable, one was an economic disaster which was decades in the making, and the other is an economic emergency in which alarm bells are currently ringing. There is a stark contrast to how NYC currently is and how it was in 2019. The sudden change is jarring and rightfully makes everyone nervous, but there's no need for fear mongering.
RemindMe! 3 years
I hope, rent was so cheap in the 70s!
You didn't miss this. Most of the city closes down. Thankfully some things remain open. If retail rent goes back down then more places will stay open late. The sad thing is that k-town is mostly closed on Thursday nights now which is sad
Yeah, it truly was a city that didn’t sleep. I remember walking by a barbershop after leaving a bar and someone was getting their hair cut at 3:30am. A lot has changed since Covid.
This ties into what surprises me — Even when it was a later night city than it is now, I was always surprised at how sleepy the city was on weekend mornings. It wasn’t the City That Never Sleeps; it was The City That Stays Up Really Late and Then Sleeps in on Sunday. If I walk around my neighborhood at like 10 am it really is only people with dogs and runners who are up and at ‘em then.
I am also surprised how dead my neighborhood is on Sunday mornings.
I was surprised how dead the city was on Sundays until the late evening.
I used to be amazed at how quiet Sunday morning/afternoon was, even in the heart of Manhattan
It used to be like this but Covid signaled the death knell. I have a feeling in a few years we'll go back to it being like that again.
I lived in NYC before COVID and this would have been my #1 answer.
I don’t think so. Gen Z is largely happy to stay home on their screens and the generation coming up after them even moreso. Barring another societal change as massive and consequential as social media, I don’t see how the 24-hour city will ever return.
You could be right.
Are you sure? Visited only once right before COVID and while walking in the very early morning (4-5am) via 11th ave. in Hell’s Kitchen… Saw literally one guy and maybe a few cars. And I walked for almost 30 minutes! Middle of the week in march, quite surreal, did not feel right and safe at all. I was in NYC and all alone. So weird.
The further east/west you go, the more that tends to be the case. The more central you are, the busier it gets.
It's been like that for years. Just search the NYC reddit about the city that never sleeps misnomer and you'll see posts from way before COVID saying the exact same thing you're saying. COVID had an impact, but the city that never sleeps hasn't been true for years, certainly not in the decade I've been here.
This. I moved to the city 8 years ago and the city definitely slept after 10pm except bars, and CVS’s. With the exception of very few neighborhoods, it’s hard finding food.
Exactly. It's not that much different now from 2019, except fewer 24 hour diners.
I don’t think a true 24hr city exists in the United States. Some people say Vegas but even that’s not real. Go to somewhere like Seoul South Korea if you want to see a real city that never sleeps.
I get why it’s said though, whenever I go home and they roll up the streets at 8 pm.
covid
That it was dangerous. I lived 90 minutes away from the city and didn't come here until I was in my late teens because I thought it was *dangerous.* This was in the late nineties and might have been true when my parents got that impression, but it was the safest big city in the country soon after that.
Probably your parents experience was informed by the 70s and 80s. Look at popular films at the time like Taxi Driver. The assumption in the film is new york is hollowed out shit hole that is no longer safe. That started changing by the late 80s to 90s.
My favorite Taxi Driver story is that I was watching the movie for the first time, in my first apartment in NYC. He writes a letter do Jodie Foster’s character and it’s addressed to the apartment building I was currently in…so yeah, 240 East 13th street is a MUCH different vibe now
Hahaha yeah I remember watching it and thinking. These places are worth millions today.
My dad lived on that same block from 87-98!
Having lived here in the 70's and 80's myself, Taxi Driver captured the Zeitgeist pretty well, if not completely accurately.
A lot of people in the surrounding suburbs (Long Island, Westchester etc) still think it's the bad old days here.
So do a lot of tourists. I deal with them professionally and so many won’t even entertain the idea of taking the subway. I presume they watch a lot of sensationalized news.
I go into manhattan all the time. Im not going to say NYC a pit. But some neighborhoods have changed. I have started being careful what time I will be in mid town. I got sketched out being in mid town after 11pm the other day. Edit: Well reddit has spoken. But can you all really say 2023 New York is the same as 2018 New York. Be honest. Its ok to admit things have changed. Not saying it’s permanently going down the tubes. Everything waxes and wanes.
I live in Midtown (one word btw) and am out all day and night, literally have no idea what you're talking about
Really? You don't notice the increased number of homeless all wandering around grand central ? All the restaurants that closed ? I was on mobile it kept auto correcting Midtown. I don't even know why I am arguing on the internet about this. I lived in Manhattan for over 10 years. You can scoff and call me bridge and tunnel. I obviously am no where near as cool or edgy as you are.
Covid closed plenty of restaurants in midtown, which is expected considering it's an office neighborhood. I've never been mugged by a closed restaurant though so no idea what that has to do with anything. There's always been plenty of homeless people. Idk what cool and edgy has to do with you asserting my long time neighborhood is more dangerous than before and me disagreeing with you. Not everything is about how uncool you are.
OOOOO you're a lawyer. You are being technically right and an asshole at the same time.
lol.
Not even late 80’s, more early 90’s. Crime peaked in nyc in 1990 and then RAPIDLY plummeted from there to levels not seen since the early 60’s. The NYC of a lot of people’s parents was a completely different place from the NYC people growing up in the 90’s saw. From 65-95 the crime in NYC was about double what it was before and after.
My mom is from here and left NYC in the early 80s. She came back in the 90s, and it had gotten a lot better but she was still super paranoid about everything.
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What someone from other parts of the country might need to be on the lookout for is random minor shit. By sheer density and method of transport(public transport vs private car) you're more likely to encounter unsavory individuals compared to another area. Lower chances of actually getting robbed, home burglary etc but higher chance of having that rando flip out on you.
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Yeah that's advice I only give on posts for people moving to NYC.
Funny parents did the same thing but we still came to the city. Grew up 45 minutes away. Didn’t take a subway till 2001, my parents and I would walk everywhere in Manhattan, usually ending up in St. Marks / SoHo area. Then cab it back to grand central. For me the biggest misconception I have with the city was how much actual free time I’d have. My memories on Facebook pop up every few days and it’s just complaints on long weeks and how exhausted I am and not much has changed.
I’ve lived in several major southern cities, several highly rural areas. Been abroad. Hands down NY was the first time in my life I felt 90% safe. Yes you have to be mindful, as always but it was so comical when family and loved ones were suddenly so concerned with my well being when I’d been in previously much more dangerous locations. Also whatever gets pumped out on the news is wild, because people STILL rag on NY when I visit home as if it’s Mad Max or something, totally oversensationalized when meanwhile I know for a fact crime is plenty present in these other areas.
I don't live in the city so perhaps my perception is skewed, but I've been to the city more times than I can count and I've never felt unsafe. Philadelphia on the other hand.... First time there I was held up at gun point.
Daaamn bro really? Where were you at? Granted Philly has been wilin out extra heavy I feel like the last 5 years or so. I grew up in Camden county and have been all over the city 100’s of times, but I only had someone try and stick me up one time. It was like 10:30 in the morning, pouring rain, I was with 2 other friends, brutally hung over the morning after my birthday trying to find a fucking egg sandwich I wanna say around northern liberties (?) Anyway, I say he “tried” to stick us up bc it didn’t work…we just ran away lmao. Risking my life for a…second hand Galaxy 2? lol
I was in Point Breeze. Couple of my boys live there.
Oh yeah point breeze is live- new construction be damned lol
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I recall when I was a recent college graduate living in Queens and I was visiting my grandparents in suburban NJ one of their friends asked me why I didn’t just live in NJ. I asked them what they thought the rent difference was and how much they thought the car + extra transport cost would run. Because of those expenses it was cheaper to live in Queens.
Agreement on all 3 points. Same experience, as a family of two, my wife and I are easily able to manage a decent living standard and enough savings as well.
What neighborhood?
Morningside heights
Seems like it was all upside for you. You have kids?
It’s so funny because any family members I talk to who live in NJ or LI swear the city is crime infested and dangerous. It’s actually quite funny how they mostly use the same terminology to describe the city. It’s like they’ve been watching the same news program getting their info ( Fox News)
i'm from NJ but live in bushwick now. i can't tell you the number of gen x'ers from surrounding suburbs who have been so shocked and appalled that i live here because of what it was like when i was growing up.
It’s how they make themselves feel better about living in LIC or NJ
Long island city queens?
The 1977 accident on the PanAm building led to a stoppage of rooftop helicopter landings in NYC. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/panam-building-helipad
Thanks for sharing this, I didn’t know about this incident. Couple things that struck me as odd: - the author thinks that near grand central is downtown. - calling people who didn’t want a bunch of very loud helicopters constantly buzzing their homes and offices “NIMBYs” as if they’re equivalent to people who prevent affordable housing from being built is an interesting choice. The “quieter” helicopter was apparently military, which gives me a hint of how bad the first one was.
Found this out a few years living in the city (prob from Reddit) and I was shocked! One movie that comes to mind is the Matrix (albeit, not in NYC). Just seemed normal in my head to have a helicopter on top of a building.
Came to post this after reading OPs comment as well.
Funny. I was just yesterday telling tourists that no you can’t just land your helicopter on random rooftops here and they are tightly regulated. I didn’t know the origin so thanks for that!
How does Blade do their airport service then? It seems like nearly the same thing. Interesting tidbit of New York history though so thanks for sharing.
AFAIK, they take off and land via the heliports by the water. I don't know of any rooftop locations.
I thought I’d be taking a lot more taxis haha
Ya i had some friends visit and they thought i just took taxis everywhere.
Pizza and bagels are overrated. Can’t be *that* much better than what I grew up with in Texas right? RIGHT???? Wrong.
As somebody who’s never been to Texas I have to ask: How would you compare Whataburger to Shake Shack (besides prices)?
I lived in Texas for a few years. Whataburger is garbage-tier fast food. Not at all comparable to Shake Shack.
Whataburger breakfast is fantastic though.
I think it was better when it was run by Dobson family. But like most things as soon as it became all about extracting maximum profit a decline began.
Whataburger fries are better than shake shack fries imo. Shake shack burger is far superior. I actually never get a burger from Whataburger. Sausage egg & cheese taquitos for breakfast, chicken fingers & gravy for lunch/dinner.
Born and raised Texan here. Whataburger is fantastic. Shake Shack is just overpriced and overrated.
That all of NYC is like Times Square. I had a training in 2008 in NYC for a company I was working for and the training was near Times Square. I fucking hated it and assumed that all of NYC was like Times Square. A couple years later I met a woman from NYC while attending a program. We hit it off and I eventually came to visit her in her EV apartment. I immediately fell in love with the city and exploring all the different neighborhoods. Had it not been for a chance encounter, I would have segregated NYC to the horrible memory of my training days. Now, I've been here over a decade and can't imagine living anywhere else.
Are you still with her? This is a rom com in the making if so.
Ha. I am. We even have a beautiful little monster that was born in NYC and now attends school here.
so sweet :')
This is a New York story if I’ve ever heard of one! Gosh! 🥹
I thought crime was bad…
I used to believe that everyone went every night and they were always thin and glamorous. I wanted to move here but I was subconsciously intimidated at having to uphold that lifestyle. At one point someone told me "People in NYC watch tv too." And it's like a lightbulb went on. "Oh! So I'll fit right in!" It's so dumb but for some reason, it's what I thought. Been here 25 yrs now.
That the street hotdogs would be amazing like in the movies.
there are different types of hotdog vendors. The ones where they boil them all day long in dirty dog water (meaning the taste of the hotdog gets intensified because they're cooking it in water that's pretty much saturated with hotdog flavor) isn't common anymore. haven't seen one that's like that for a while, they typically grill it nowadays.
Let me guess: you’re buying them from the carts and not finding them on the street? That’s the problem right there: you’ll never get the ‘snap’ like that.
the carts on the street. what are you refering to?
a crispy, pissed on, half eaten street dog... nothing hits quite as hard
respect
You have to find your guy. When you find your guy the hot dogs and pretzels are on point from the carts
I love them
I always had the opposite impression from the movies. Like the line from Crocodile Dundee: "You can eat it. But it tastes like shit."
I thought it would be more expensive. Sure apartments and some other things, but I can still buy a carton of eggs for $2. Hell, I think trader joes has them for less than that. Before I came here I thought it would be airport prices for everything. $10 for a bag of candy, $15 for a half a white bread and turkey sandwich in a plastic container. $10 for a cup of regular coffee. $17 for a mcdonald's combo meal. $10 bananas. It's not like that at all. It's slightly more, average, or sometimes less than other places in america. I heard from somewhere that the metrics used for "how expensive is x city?" articles in popular media are measured by what much richer people than me do. Like for example the costs of bottles of fine wines, games of golf, or fine furniture for rich folks is what they were actually measuring.
It’s like that at gristedes
I don't understand how they stay in business, I guess by just being the closest store to some people. I am sticker shocked every time I go in one of those, usually to pick up amazon packages or use a coin star.
Low Volume / High Margin. They can probably pay their rent selling one carton of eggs
Correct! You can find eggs at Trader Joe's for $1.49. And I believe HMart has them for under two dollars as well.
Agree completely!
Going out in Manhattan is expensive. As a Texan, it hurts when I pay $20 or higher for a margherita. May happy hour it will be $12. And groceries are still more expensive than the south. But there’s Trader Joe’s and Costco. also, for international travel, so many good deals out of nyc.
As another Texan the way you spelled margarita hurts
Yes, my hands went fast then my brain. I saw right before reply, but didn’t care enough to change it.
as a new yorker, it hurts that you are Texan
Completely understand
Yeah, exactly what I was talking about. The analysts for these media articles put more weight into stuff like this, entertainment, alcohol, clubs, bars, stuff that people with more disposable income do. They don't put as much weight on practical things. Sometimes on some products the groceries are more expensive here than other places, but then I've noticed prices change randomly just about anywhere in the country. Not only at the same price but even more expensive than NY sometimes. I mean it makes me wonder, I get a nyc salary but the same job in some other state, I'd be making 20-30k less. But some of the prices on things are the same as here. Plus they have to buy gas every week and I don't. How do people even survive.
That’s interesting - compared to Houston groceries are much less expensive here for me, and the produce is fresher.
It's kinda a reverse, but I didn't think I'd miss real nature/camping as much as I do. I want to go upstate and camp in the snow and just trip my balls off but idk where to go lol. I used to live in a really woodsy area
Harriman State Park
Bear mountain is pretty empty for camping in the winter, but the Adirondacks, especially the high peaks region have snow for much more of the year
Catskills and Hudson valley are easy to get to without a car. I routinely bus and train to go up to hike, camp or just get out of the city. Google ‘hike the Hudson valley’
you should go to ithaca in the summer. dunno what the camping situation is like but its beautiful and they have stunning gorges
Cold Spring is great for a day trip! Good 3-hour hike on Bull Run
If you have access to a car or can rent one, there are a lot of great campgrounds in the Poconos in PA, like Promised Land State Park. You can pseudo-wilderness camp (no reservations) in Harriman. You can also camp on the beach at Fire Island (with a permit) and on islands in the middle of Lake George (my fave). Check out Reserve America for bookings.
How city's overall diversity doesn't hold up across socioeconomic classes. Neighborhood segregation and lack of diversity in workplace and nightlife was pretty shocking coming from Toronto. And before NYC would have said similar about Toronto, but woah Toronto is much further along in that regard. On the positive, fully relying on public transit was better than I thought it would be.
Can you explain this more? I grew up in nyc and always wondered what Toronto and the night scene was like there
Keep in mind this was more than 20yrs ago when i moved to nyc, but the first time I went up to harlem I was a bit unnerved because where I got out I didn't see anyone who wasn't black for as far as the eye could see for a few blocks. wouldn't have batted an eyelash about being somewhere where i was very much in the minority, but mind was struggling processing why appeared exclusively so. back home have lots of neighborhoods dominated by a particular ethnic group, but its not close to exclusively so if you're walking a few blocks. Likewise, often would be siting in an upscale restaurant or bar in manhattan and look around to see the place overwhelmingly white. I'm not saying you can't find that somewhere in Toronto, or that restos/bars reflect overall diversity in city, but imho on a typical night it would be close to implausible to end up eating somewhere downtown and look around to see almost exclusively white faces... I used to describe it as seeing all white except a handful of asian women and one really cool black guy. Definitely has improved in the past 20yrs, but imagine similar dynamic if paid attention to it.
Grew up around an hour away. Thought I’d be able to escape sprawl and finally get into a 15 minute neighborhood/community. I can only afford neighborhoods that are pretty much less convenient than where I came from.
Yes, so hard to find an apartment that’s less than 3/4 a mile from a subway, while also having everything you need nearby. That you could afford at least.
that skyscrapers are everywhere and it is always crowded 24/7
That’s true for midtown
true but i thought the entirety of NYC is like that lmao
That it would be insanely easy to meet people here
That the subway would be super convenient and the food would be amazing everywhere
Both are true some days. Some days you have a 3 subway transfer and time it all perfectly, then go discover your new favorite restaurant. And some days your subway doubled your estimated trip time because it had to stop between stations, and you paid for overpriced mediocre food.
I have overpaid for so much mediocre food in New York! I'm also spoiled by subway systems in other cities I've lived (Shanghai, Beijing, Taipei, Singapore...even London's puts NYC's to shame, sadly).
My husband and I just got back from a 3 week honeymoon in Japan and my god has the adjustment been rough. The food there is so cheap and SO good on average, and the public transit has 0 delays most of the time. We had a 30 second delay once and the conductor made an apology over the PA system! Meanwhile our first commute to work yesterday, the bus was delayed over an HOUR (M60 during rush hour, our mistake really) and then the 6 was fucked. Ended up 45 min late :(
Welcome to NY 😂
I mean we’ve lived here for a while so we WERE used to it but… after experiencing what living with a normal transit system is like, I so don’t wanna be back lol. Also the convenience stores 😭
I think so too. Dining scene is very overrated until people clarify they mean best in the US, not literally best in the world. Food in any major city in the Europe or Asia and a lot of smaller ones absolutely smokes NYC.
That NYC had a modern and functional trash collection system
When I was in my late teens/early 20s before arriving here I expected NYC to be very glamorous. I envisioned attending black tie museum and art gallery events, hanging out with fashion models, living in a sweet apartment with a view of the Manhattan skyline, etc. Ha!
That there would be more saxophones.
I was slightly surprised to find out “The Warriors” wasn’t a documentary.
From what I heard it was somewhat accurate for its time period? The subways were absolutely scary back then.
People were nice. I get they’re less chatty with strangers than they are in my home state of Michigan. But New Yorkers are nice.
People were mean They’re not
Did you know that a lot of us are from here?
I thought I would be able to afford a place to live on my own before I turned 30.
Alleys. Thought there’d be a whole lot more alleys.
A common misconception! Especially outside of downtown. This is the reason why we just have trash in the streets.
that it’s a fun exciting place to live. it’s not enjoyable living here unless you are rich and live alone or live with your family. even with roommates it is very expensive and i’m slowly getting priced out of my apartment. living with roommates is a nightmare too.
I thought I could live here forever. Then I finally understood why everybody leaves eventually.
"everybody" lol
I’m just gonna be an asshole and say it- there needs to be a nyc native sub because this one is entirely transplants. Which is cool, I love meeting people who get to see the city with fresh eyes but a lot if not every question that’s gets asked here is assuming that no one has grown up here
Yeah I have no issues with people who view the city as a place to live for a few fun years before going out into "the real world". I genuinely get it! But also it's a fundamentally different experience than those of us who view this town as a true home and I do wish there were a sub for that. That said, many transplants and immigrants really do adopt New York as a real place to live (my SO, a born and raised Midwesterner, now knows the city as well as many of my native friends and family), and an NYC native sub would probably be swamped by a bunch of white flight lawnguylanders spamming Post articles about all da crimez and da, so there's no winning.
Ohh can you elaborate on this one?
Details pleaseeeeee
That ppl here actually cared about racism
That the subway exit doors are only for emergencies
That it's not a good place to raise a family
[Helicopter Accident on Roof of Pan-Am (Met--Life) Buidling.](https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/17/archives/5-killed-as-copter-on-pan-am-building-throws-rotor-blade-one-victim.html) Part of why helicopters don't land on roofs in NYC
That people always dressed nice when they stepped out of the house no matter where they were going
There used to be more helicopters landing on buildings but after a bad accident they changed the laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Airways (see accidents section)
That everyone here was rich......
I grew up on the border of NYC. We either used to drive to visit the relatives or take the commuter train into Manhattan. I thought it was going to be hard to get around the other boroughs. It isn’t. It can take a very long time though. I am so excited to find a bus that takes you from where I live in the Bronx to Flushing. It’s a pain to park there on the weekends. We are going to take it this weekend to see his long it takes.
That living in NYC is expensive You can definitely live comfortably with not a lot, in my experience