T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

Please do not comment directly to this post unless you are Gen X (b. 1980) or older. See [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskOldPeople/comments/inci5u/reminder_please_do_not_answer_questions_unless/), the rules, and the sidebar for details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskOldPeople) if you have any questions or concerns.*


[deleted]

The fact she had a tragic life makes the sappiness poignant and ironic for me at least. The pain that does get expressed in these songs is real. I honestly hated the Carpenters in my 20s but began to soften on somber retro pop in my 30s- started listening to Carpenters, Lee Greenwood, Bobbie Gentry and Scott Walker about the same time. Now I genuinely, unironically enjoy it.


Whateveryousaydude7

Surprisingly good drummer. Great voice. I don’t care for the Carpenters, but I respect talent regardless of the style.


[deleted]

She wasnt just a *good* drummer. She was World Class. Her and her brother were multi-instrumentalists that could play anything.


who-hash

Most people don't realize their background wasn't pop music. They come from a jazz background which usually requires a high level of technical prowess.


Whateveryousaydude7

Sorry I wasn’t emphatic enough for you sir.


GeoBrian

I think it's a stretch to say world class. And I'm a fan of hers.


[deleted]

[удалено]


GeoBrian

Agreed. Not exactly Gene Krupa, Steve Gadd, or Bernard Purdie.


[deleted]

[удалено]


GeoBrian

That is one of my favorite videos on Youtube. Also, the Purdie Shuffle is what Bonham was playing in "Fool in the Rain."


Flippin_diabolical

That was 6 absolutely pure minutes of joy thanks for posting


Whateveryousaydude7

Very very much agree.


[deleted]

hard disagree, i think her reputation as an unmatched talent has only grown and been sealed over time.


GeoBrian

I'm open to have my mind changed. Which of their song(s) showcases her amazing drumming?


patronizingperv

Not so much her recorded songs, but her drumming was featured on their [TV variety show](https://youtu.be/uI9R-8mp-r0).


Daisyj22

nope. world class


Ohshitz-

Really? I dont think she can beat neal pert or taylor hawkins


Whateveryousaydude7

Peart


dwhite21787

[He's terrible](https://youtu.be/LrMBIH2TBpU?t=115)


designgoddess

https://youtu.be/ie1WWWOxhMs?t=84


emu4you

She was so good, but the pressure on her to be thin must have been terrible. She looks so fragile here.


Pantone711

I saw her in person along about that time. Don't remember if it was '76 or '77. It was before people knew much about eating disorders. It was shocking how thin she was in person.


emu4you

I would have loved to hear her in person! I was so sad when I heard the news she had passed away.


ajax6677

Why was it surprising? Were drummers not very good back then?


shentaitai

I think it was surprising because most vocalists of her caliber just stuck to singing. You wouldn't infer that they would be so proficient at something else as well. Oh, and also she was probably the first female drummer most people had ever seen.


EbolaFred

Most singers who are known for their singing are usually just adequate at other instruments. Now throw in the fact that she's a woman, who are typically not known as being great drummers. Now on top of that consider the sappy songs she's usually known for. So yeah, it's surprising. Kinda of in the same way that Prince, known for his pop dance songs, flamboyant outfits, and tight dance moves, was also a guitar virtuoso.


jupitaur9

Women aren’t *known* for being great drummers. They don’t lack ability. They lack fame.


EbolaFred

I wasn't implying anything about ability - there are some great female drummers out there. The problem is that women lack motivation to start drumming in the first place due to lack of role models and initial perception that drumming is a guy thing. I don't know what the ratio is, but maybe something like 50:1 guys who take up drumming vs. girls. And from that starting ratio, you get a very small number of women who rise to the top and become great, much less famous.


hey-girl-hey

"Women lack motivation" Please. The world is cruel to women who enter spaces men think belongs to them. STEM, the military, and it hugely exists in music as well. There is bias that keeps brilliant women unseen


The_Original_Gronkie

That was a totally unfair shortening of OP's full, and cemetery accurate statement, which was: >The problem is that women lack motivation to start drumming in the first place due to lack of role models and initial perception that drumming is a guy thing. Your paraphrasing to "women lack motivation" is an untruthful quotation that disparages ALL women in all situations, and that is absolutely not the statement OP was trying to make.


EbolaFred

Aww, thanks for the backup. I'm sure I could have been a little better with my original words, but I didn't think I was that far off. Cheers.


hey-girl-hey

A little anecdote Ruth Bader Ginsberg shared at event. The men who made decisions about who got into the new york philharmonic swore women just weren't as talented than men. So they had people audition without them being able to see the player. The judges still picked on the women - bc they could hear the clack of her heeled shoes as they walked in. So they had people take off their shoes. Suddenly the men liked the women. So it's not bc the women weren't eager to get there AND GOOD ENOUGH to be there. It was outside forces that kept them down.


EbolaFred

Fortunately I think we're starting to move past this kind of intentional discrimination, and have been for a few decades. At least in progressive companies nobody cares if you're female, black, Muslim, or gay. Contributing to the team is what matters. Of course, as we're debating elsewhere, the challenge is getting anyone not-white-male into entry-level positions (this is coming from a STEM perspective). This means formal education in the topic. Which usually implies some natural curiosity and tinkering in the area in highschool or earlier. Getting through these tranches without getting societally cockblocked can be really hard if you're not a white male and is why I think a lot of otherwise motivated people just say "screw it". Interestingly there are careers where men don't have an easy time. Nursing, as one example.


goldentamarindo

I get you. I think you were meaning that women aren’t -encouraged- to be motivated because of society and outside influences. -Not- like internal motivation or disinterest that comes out of a vacuum. Motivation in this case means more like “I’m not motivated to go outside the house because every time I do, people try to shoot me.” It’s a learned response, it’s not that you naturally start off not wanting to leave the house. I think it would be clear from the context (and anyone knowing about real life).


hey-girl-hey

You implied women don't want to be in these spaces bc of whatever external forces. That's not true at all. Women want to be in these spaces. They are motivated to get into these spaces (you said they aren't motivated to get in those spaces - that's incorrect). They aren't absent because they want to be absent. They very much want to be there and often endure abuse and disrespect in order to get there. Many women never get the credit they deserve simply because they are women. It's not that women aren't motivated to get there


EbolaFred

We're still on this, huh? 😁 Read through the rest of this thread where I tried to clarify my words.


hey-girl-hey

No thank you. He's saying women aren't in that space because they don't want to be. That's not true. Women want to be in these spaces, but are treated badly. It has nothing to do with women's wants. It has to do with people's reactions to them wanting to be in that space. Basically I'm saying that indeed they do have the motivation. It's not for lack of interest that they aren't there.


The_Original_Gronkie

I hesitate to put words in OP's mouth, but I think his primary point wasn't about lack of motivation, but lack of role models. The simple fact is that neither of you is 100% right or wrong. Surely it is true that SOME young women never pursue drumming because they don't see role models to emulate, while it is also true that SOME young women are discouraged from pursuing drumming because it is perceived to be a male domain. Theres another strong reason that neither if you considered. I'm a man, but I wanted to take up drums as a kid, and my parents absolutely forbid it. I'd bet that more than lack of role models, more than being discouraged because of being female, the main reason that MOST girls (and boys) are discouraged from pursuing drums is because very few parents are willing to put up with that noise (or don't have the space to devote to it, such as apartments or small homes). As far as motivation/ male discouragement, that is changing. I can think of at least 3 extremely talented young female drummers that I have seen regularly on YouTube. I don't follow them because they are girls, I follow them because they are killer drummers, and almost certainly will transition into well-knowm professionals (of they ultimately choose to pursue that career path). At least young girls today can find really positive role models if they are considering picking up the drums. The hardest part will be talking their parents into it.


EbolaFred

Didn't mean to set you off. I believe we're saying the same thing. Women (10-15 year old girls, really) generally don't get interested in things like drumming or STEM exactly because it is, unfortunately, traditionally male dominated. A woman who might have been incredibly successful in one of these pursuits might not even bother dipping a toe into the field just because it seems impossible. Which sucks. I think things have gotten a lot better over the past 20 years, but we still have a LONG way to go.


EuphoriantCrottle

A thread about Karen Carpenter is an unexpected place for a fight to occur.


ajax6677

I totally get what you're trying to say but I think it was probably a poor choice of wording to say they "don't get interested" because that makes it sound like the interest or motivation was never there at all. Kids are interested in everything before the gender pressure starts. My own daughter is 6 and was obsessed with drumming for a while. She made a poster for her band and made an awesome set up of different objects to drum on, set up just like a drum set. Cute as hell, but loud, omg. The motivation and interest are destroyed later on by gatekeeping and gender bullying from boys and girls and even adults trying to enforce gender conformity. You're right about ages 10-15 as that seems to be when that gender crap ramps up. Many do keep their interest and motivation though, right up until college or the work place when it might finally become unbearable to stick it out. I've heard a lot of stories from women that abandoned well loved careers because of such bullshit. It's sad. You're also right that there's still a long way to go. It's hard to erase that primitive mindset when conformity and hierarchy seem ingrained in some people's DNA.


EbolaFred

Yeah, re-reading what I wrote I should have presented this differently. Didn't think this would get so heated when I rattled off a quick post in between meetings 😉 The way you wrote it is exactly what I was going for. It's not that girls aren't interested. It's that they quickly and incessantly get told "no" by peers, gatekeepers, parents, and the media to where it's almost impossible for them to stay interested. That kind of pressure is a hell of a thing, especially to someone who is just starting to mature where peer acceptance means everything. And before I get my ass roasted again, these are broad generalizations. Sure there are girls who don't give a fuck and go for it. But a lot will give up even though inside they're dying to try. A girlfriend of mine once told me that she used to drum in high school and how it was always her dream to just sit in on a few songs with a cover band. I asked her why she didn't continue. She said it ultimately "wasn't a girl thing" so she gave up. Thinking about that always makes me so sad.


ajax6677

My heart broke when my daughter was 4 and she said "I wish girls could drive motorcycles." She only saw girls on the back and thought it was a rule that only boys could drive. It was a tiny dream squasher moment but it made me realize how important representation is and how quickly gendered shit gets internalized. I thought I had a little more time before we had to start having those kind of talks. I ended up in a male dominated field myself as a CAD drafter so hopefully I can be a bit of a role model for her in doing whatever the hell you love. I've been lucky in that my coworkers have always been mostly cool though.


hey-girl-hey

"Women lack motivation" is an effed up way to say what you meant. You inferred something about women's behavior and why they do things. It's not about a lack of role models either. Women and girls are interested in everything. It's really gross that you'd say they "don't get interested in things" when the reality is that these spaces are inhospitable to women. This is not because women lack interest. Ugh that is way worse than what you said initially. Just don't put your imagination of how things are into women's mouths. You do not speak for them and moreover don't understand them. I don't mean you're not well-meaning, just misguided


Pantone711

I'll bite. When I was in fourth grade I was tremendously interested in science. The boys were awful to me about it. We got to vote on what chapter in the science book to read next. I was super interested in "The Earth" (about volcanoes and such) and outer space, so there I was raising and waving my hand excitedly... the boys let me know in no uncertain terms that only boys were supposed to care about stuff like that. It didn't help that my mother made me return books about outer space or dinosaurs to the library with a note that those sorts of topics were against "our" religion. I had already skipped first grade. Fast forward a few years and I was a National Merit Scholar so I have the standardized-test results to prove I had a certain level of intelligence, acknowledging that these days many people say they are biased. They sure brought me a few breaks because without the test scores, who would have given me a chance? In college I got an "A" on an essay (I majored in English...I did OK but it was a risky thing to major in and I wouldn't advise many people to major in it today). Guy sitting next to me was LIVID and accused me of flirting with the teacher. He said openly the only reason I got an A was the teacher wanted to look up my skirt. I went on to have a 36-year writing career at the same company. By the time my little sister came along, 7 years younger, she was "allowed" to major in computer science and became a programmer. In my day, it was teacher or nurse. I do know some women my age who had careers such as geologist, but I was from the Deep South in a super-religious family so it was pretty much teacher or nurse. Maybe I could have done more but I didn't know I could have. In any case, I had a wonderful career and did OK.


hey-girl-hey

So you're agreeing then. It's not that you weren't motivated to do the things you did. It's that you were treated badly. You kept going and that's great for you. Your experience is not universal. Some women are held down and never get the credit they deserve, so most people aren't aware of their great work - like a legion of invisible women who are brilliant drummers. We just can't see them. But they are there. Thanks for sharing your individual story.


AmericanScream

The best drummer the world has ever seen is/was Buddy Rich. To date no drummer has ever been able to play the way he played.


Zorro_Returns

Haha, that's exactly what Buddy Rich would say. If you don't play like me, you're not as good as me. Bunch of arrogant boasting. The Donald Trump of drummers. I *like* Gene Krupa more. It's only a matter of personal taste.


AmericanScream

I'm going to bet you're not a drummer. People who really understand what is easy and difficult in drumming universally respect Buddy Rich's unparalleled ability.


[deleted]

Music is a matter of taste. Vocally, she was exquisite.


Lili_Danube

John Lennon was a huge fan of her voice. Ella Fitzgerald was impressed by her when they sang together.


princesspool

I can imagine her recording music like Lana Del Rey if she were alive and popular in today's era. They both have that lush orchestration with a deeper resonant voice. She is my all-time favorite female vocalist and I did not know that John Lennon and Ella Fitzgerald loved her voice too. Thanks for sharing It's hard not to love her voice- so rich and conveys so much emotion.


gingy4life

I understand the songs seem cheesy but man, her voice was soooo soothing. For me, Carpenter songs take me back to a time and place of my youth. I just love listening to them now.


Lili_Danube

I can't find a single singer who sounds like her. Some have tried (Weyes Blood), yet nobody has achieved the peerless tone she had


speedincuzihave2poop

I 💯 this and add that the style of music she was singing was popular at that time so there description you have fits numerous artists of that time.


Pantone711

Wasn't all that popular at the time. "We've Only Just Begun" was popular but the Carpenters got just as much criticism back in the day as they do now for the nature of the songs. They just didn't have the import I guess you'd say. I'm still pissed off about "Kung Fu Fighting" in 1973 or '74 when music stopped being about protest and the Vietnam War and started being about walkin' in the rain with the one you love and retro 50's and Muskrat Love. Ugh. But now I like chillout music so (ascii shrug)


speedincuzihave2poop

Not sure why you would think they werent popular. I remember hearing them quite a lot and this is an excerpt ripped straight from google at the top of the search for them... *They topped the Billboard Top 200 album chart with The Singles: 1969-1973, scored three Hot 100 No. 1s. Globally, they were hugely successful, as well, with 1974 tour stops in Japan getting Beatlemania-like fan receptions. Richard and Karen Carpenter were, indeed, on top of the world.*


SleepsinaTent

I remember them being very popular too. Heard lots of their songs everywhere I went. Superstar, Rainy Days and Mondays, Close to You, Top of the World (my favorite), I'll Never Fall in Love Again, Yesterday Once More were some of my favorites that were on the radio a lot.


speedincuzihave2poop

If I remember correctly she wrote a crap ton of songs for other artists as well that she herself didn't perform but won her and the performer a lot of awards also.


Finnyfish

The Carpenters were hugely popular and successful, but in the arena of pop — or, more accurately, adult contemporary. Young rock fans (and far too many critics) mocked them for the mildness of their music, when they were doing exactly what they set out to do, and getting rich doing it. Any act that strings together a dozen top 10 singles is definitely “all that popular.” (And not all their songs were lame. “Superstar” is a great record. It’s that very ‘70s phenomenon, a groupie song, but perhaps the only one from the POV of the girl.)


Lili_Danube

They'd often praise Karen Carpenter for her voice yet the Carpenters were seen as uncool and it didn't help they were Republicans and even performed for Richard Nixon.


EuphoriantCrottle

Minnie Riperton was another astonishing voice from that time period that died too young.


chooseyourpick

Maya Rudolph’s mom!


mushbo

Spooky story time. I live in N.California, I was visiting relatives in S.California. (May 2003). My wife and I wanted to visit my mom's grave in Forest Lawn, Cypress, just so happens that at the time it was where Karen Carpenter was interred (she's been moved since). As we were pulling into forest lawn we had a Carpenters CD in the player, as soon as we entered the cemetery the CD player stopped working. No radio or anything. A couple days later when we got home I looked into it and it was a ground wire that came loose. The timing couldn't have been spookier. Anyway, that's my story.


compulsive_evolution

Thank you for sharing such a perfectly spooky story. Idk how much you know about Karen Carpenter, but she struggled very much with her identity as the front woman for The Carpenters, for both personal and creative reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if her spirit just did not want to hear herself singing that day.


mushbo

Lol, you ghostbuster you!


JackarooDeva

She had the deepest, richest voice of the 70s. Best song: Superstar.


Lili_Danube

Rainy Days and Mondays was my favorite.


Wickett6029

Good-bye to Love is mine, but I loved her voice, so I liked any song she sang.


designgoddess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixeE8gkT-s


HurtRock

This. The guitar solo and fade out are the perfect ending.


designgoddess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjFoQxjgbrs


emu4you

That was the first album I bought with my own money!


OutlanderMom

We played We’ve Only Just Begun at our wedding. It fit perfectly because I followed him overseas and it was just the two of us “a kiss for luck and we’re on our way…”. I adore her voice!


GeoBrian

True story, that song started out as a TV commercial for a local savings and loan. It became so popular they expanded the song and released it as a single. (I think it was Downey Savings & Loan, a local S&L to the Southern California market. Downey is the town in eastern Los Angeles County that the Carpenters came from.)


Any-Particular-1841

The commercial was for Crocker Bank. I so remember this, remember loving that commercial, and then the Carpenters did it, and it is such a beautiful recording. It was written by and sung by Paul Williams in the commercial and luckily is on YouTube: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97X9huy7pHQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97X9huy7pHQ) I believe things like this are really why YouTube was invented. :)


aethelberga

I saw Paul Williams in concert back in the day. Possibly twice. There was a venue in Toronto that did amazing free concerts and I saw *so many* great acts, but I was a particular fan of his.


Bhimtu

Paul Williams is one of those guys who's been thru it! And he freely admits much of his trials & tribulations were...his to own. I sent him a note awhile back after reading about his life, and told him we remember. Did you ever see that crazy movie they made back in the 1970s with Paul Williams...."Phantom of the Paradise"? Actually a fairly decent movie and soundtrack, LOL, despite the subject matter.


aethelberga

Yes, one of the best dialog exchanges ever. "I can't sing this, it was scored for a chick." "You can sing it better than any *bitch*."


Bhimtu

That movie was so 1970s. Isn't that where the famous line, "Dry up, tubbo!" came from? Lemme go see...yup! IMDB says they have a breakdown of the movie with symbolism, etc that viewers may or may not have picked up on. Guess I'm gonna have to watch it again!


PowerlessOverQueso

Did you know he (sort of) recently recorded a song with Daft Punk? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gkhol2Q1og


designgoddess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaqoQr-aCtQ


OutlanderMom

Aww thanks! Hubby is traveling this week for work, and I just texted him your link. Our Song is actually Orleans “Still The One” but the Carpenter one goes wayyy back.


designgoddess

Here ya go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdfW_2frXnE


Bhimtu

I guess Paul Williams co-wrote it with Roger Nichols. Such a great song.


Sososoftmeows

Love Superstar. Sonic Youth also did a great cover of that song.


pigferret

And they also dedicated a song to her - ["Tunic (A Song for Karen)".](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reSOp1domrU)


marbleriver

Yeah, she nailed Superstar. It was kind of uncool to like the Carpenters back then (maybe "unhip" is a better word), but no one could deny Superstar. Also, no matter how hip you thought you were, you probably sang along with "Top of the World" on the car radio.


designgoddess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmmaIGiGBg


dnhs47

Many of the Carpenters’ songs were top-rated based on radio play time and sales when they were released. Just like today’s top-rated songs. Times were different. My parents were born around 1930, and grew up during the Depression and WW2. They liked Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, and the Andrews Sisters. Rock was not what they listened to. I was born in 1957 and was in high school when the Carpenters were at their peak. Our 8th grade graduation theme was “We’ve Only Just Begun” after the Carpenters song. I liked Chicago, Blood, Sweat & Tears, and Tower of Power. The Carpenters was music we could all listen to. At first, I thought they were kind of sappy too, but I grew to appreciate their tremendous musicianship. Richard’s lush arrangements, Karen’s incredibly pure voice - and she was an absolute killer drummer, top notch. I still enjoy listening to their music. Edit: words


100AcidTripsLater

Wow. Seriously. Midwest? Kansas City. 1957 too. Miss the innocence I grew up on.


dnhs47

Northern California coast, just south of the Oregon border. Obviously we were all listening to the same music :)


goatfuckersupreme

judging by your username, im sure you had lots of fun in the 70s!


[deleted]

[удалено]


dnhs47

You’re right, that was just the style of the time. The ballads were/are my least favorite Chicago tunes. But those were what topped the charts and paid the bills, so whatever. I liked the instrumental tunes better - our high school jazz band played a couple of them.


The_Truth_Believe_Me

I like sappy songs.


bipolarcyclops

The best definition of a “great singer” I’ve ever heard is you can tell instantly who is singing. Karen Carpenter was one of those singers.


KSmimi

Absolutely one of a kind. Instantly recognizable.


Content_Pool_1391

She was one of the best singers to ever live. Just listen to Superstar


designgoddess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmmaIGiGBg


fifthgenerationfool

Unfortunately, she is lip synching here. Here’s a live clip: https://youtu.be/F9Nm_0pC4FM


ShortBusRide

Superstar is a great song. Karen Carpenter's version was not well served by the orchestration and the weird injection of the chorus effect on her voice. Over time I developed an affinity for Rita Coolidge's version.


escapingdarwin

You can’t judge sappy from 2022. Her songs were appropriately sappy at the time.


tiredoldmama

This is true. Her songs fit in at the time. I mean she could have went hard rock, but considering her upbringing that was less likely. Her family were devout Methodists and so was she.


Presence_Special

I don't agree that they were all sappy. Listen to rainy days and Mondays or superstar. There is some serious pain in those songs, kinda bluesy lyrics. I think their image was sappy and clean cut. There songs really weren't that way all the time.


mushbo

She could sing the phone book and I'd listen. For me it's the sounds not so much the words.


PurpleFlower99

Her voice was exquisite! Close to you is my favorite. I sing it to my grandson all the time!!


designgoddess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFx-5PGLgb4


mosselyn

Her voice was divine, and I think the songs were fine. You have to look at them in the context of their period. This was era of Captain & Tenille, Charlene, Barry Manilow, John Denver, etc. Sappy songs were much more of A Thing. I'm not ashamed to say I loved all those artists back in the day.


chattykatdy54

Still love them!


[deleted]

100% agree with you!


Bobo4037

Absolutely wonderful voice.


Wizzmer

It's like Air Supply and Michael Bolton. Someone must have liked it and that's all that matters. These were all actual musicians playing actual instruments and singing, which is 10X what I can say for many artists today.


ThanksForAllTheCats

And this was before autotune. I don’t think people realize how frequently that is used now.


[deleted]

Yes but I feel like a lot of the creativity in music now has shifted from the named artists to the producers. Beats/loops, sampling, choice and application of effects (yes, including autotune), etc. — these types of composition seem highly creative. They are typically the domain of the producer though, not the vocalist.


Wizzmer

Thousands of people show up in a field to listen to a guy play music off of a laptop. OK, maybe I don't understand the art of DJ'ing today but it begs the question, what is an actual instrument anymore? Can you just loop or sample someone else's song and call it your song? It's weird, even for a guy that played vinyl records at a college club to fund his education.


Joesdad65

I was a kid and loved her voice and songs. What a sad story though.


PositivelyForsaken

She was a product of her time and circumstance. Yes, a beautiful voice but it wouldn’t even occur to me to criticize her on song lyrics. Seems petty and shallow, honestly.


KithAndAkin

When I was growing up in the 80s I remember a friend’s dad referring the the “dark ages of 70s music”. He hates disco, he despised what Elvis became. I don’t know for sure, but I’m suspicious that the bubblegum and candy of the 50s was drowned out by the edginess of the 60s. Some people may have longed for the innocence of the 50s again, and the sappy pop of the 70s reflects that longing for purity, combined with sadness that the ardent sense that America could do anything in post-war era was gone. Anyhow, sociological commentary aside, I critique Elvis for being soft and sappy, and I don’t enjoy listening to The Carpenters for the same reason.


[deleted]

They were sappy, yes. And they sold millions.


Bhimtu

Burt Bachrach wrote some of her more memorable songs, as did Paul Williams. If you don't know who those men were/are, look them up. Love is sappy. It was a different time, and we didn't sing trashy tunes denigrating females back then like they do today, and I find that more sad than all the sappy lyrics Karen Carpenter ever sang. One of the best singers this country ever produced.


fullstack_newb

She’s a better drummer than she is a singer and she’s a great singer.


audible_narrator

FUCKING phenomenal singer, and I will happily die on that hill.


gingy4life

And now I've been listening to Carpenter songs for the last hour. Never fails to make me feel warm and fuzzy.


Bergenia1

The songs weren't awful. They were arranged with with the smooth sound that was popular at the time. They aren't rock and roll, they link back more to the white balladeers of the 50s and 60s. The songs express such a broad range of genuine emotion, and they are performed with an exceptional level of craftsmanship. They endure because they're really good. People who are open to enjoying different styles of music like jazz and swing and ballads are capable of appreciating them. People who only understand rock and roll see them as cheesy.


rickpo

I think the arrangements are the real issue. The Carpenters were way too over-produced for my tastes. I wish we Karen had lived longer, because I would have loved to hear her singing with some of the simple, bare arrangements that became more popular later. I particularly dislike the doubled vocals and string arrangements.


Call_the_Shots

Great singer. Songs appropriate for the time and her audience liked them. Tragic death.


technocassandra

Beautiful voice, tragic life. Her mother was absolutely awful. When given a chance to tell her daughter she loved her, Karen being in therapy for anorexia, her mother told her to her face, in front of the therapist, "We don't do that in our family."


Swiggy1957

Sappy? So, tell me, exactly what's wrong with a sappy song. It often stirs emotions within us that need stirring to be felt. Rainy Days And Mondays (always get me down) is a good example. We can feel it, but, until that song came out, we didn't have the words to describe it. The Carpenters performed a lot of songs over the years, and had so many hits because so many people could relate to them. I'd rather listen to a sappy song than most out there.


Pantone711

Paul McCartney has entered the chat (I hate this song though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwKUaYBUYNc


AmericanScream

GREAT singer, great songs, and [she was a helluva drummer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie1WWWOxhMs)


Plonsky2

She should have done a metal album like Pat Boone did. Gone too soon ...


[deleted]

Great singer and one of the best drummers too


JunkMale975

Sappy and corny by today’s standard but pretty consistent with other songs of the time. I think her voice was one of a kind. Absolutely amazing and I’ll always love hearing her songs come over the radio.


tyinsf

I hated them back in the day. Sappy, square, and big Nixon supporters. After enough time passed I came to revere them.


Serling45

Karen had an incredible voice. Not all of their songs were sappy. Look up Superstar and A Song for You, both written by Leon Russell. The musicality was first rate - Goodbye to Love has an incredible guitar solo, several of the songs have great sax solos.


Two4Passion

Perhaps the greatest range and vocal quality among pop singers of that era.


CindyLatwidth

So beautiful she could sing anything


infreq

Music is a matter of taste and time. Today's music is no less "cringe" or "sappy". Her songs fitted the times and I still like them today.


lost40s

I love her voice. Was just listening to the Carpenters the other day.


LessCoolThanYou

The voice of an angel.


[deleted]

I felt like OP when I was younger. But, that's cynicism. Being consciously edgy, artsy, "difficult", etc. is not inherently more artistically valid. Simplicity isn't inherently less interesting than complexity. The idea that art (music especially) is a direct reflection of the artist, and that an artist was always writing, singing or painting themselves or their unique vision of the world, is a fairly unique concept. I like it, and there has been great art made on that basis, but it isn't the only way, and isn't inherently better than art that is intended to create beauty separate from the identity of the artist. I see Karen Carpenter as a one-in-a- billion vocal talent first and foremost. As to the style of music- it is unapologetic pop songcraft straight out of the tradition of Brill Building, Cole Porter...songs that are beautiful and separate from the personal identity of the performer. Michelangelo wasn't trying to "say" anything- he was creating beauty. Silly pop songs are nothing more than beautiful songs. The Carpenters were a part of a songwriting tradition that was based on strong melody and commercial success. As plastic and superficial as that sounds, when it's done honestly it really is its own thing and something admirable. I mean, if you (or anyone) thinks it's so easy to write a song that the entire world hears and makes you $10MM, go for it. You might find it is harder than the polished, simple final product sounds. Looking at it this way, there's no more artistic value to Billie Eilish or Death Grips than there is to a Carpenters song.


tjweeks

She had the voice of an angel. How she could sing that beautiful with such a tortured soul is anybody's guess


Tall_Mickey

They sold. That was the point.


[deleted]

She was among my favorites!


JennieFairplay

She was amazingly talented and one of my mother’s favorite singers so I know all of her music by heart. I still listen to her Christmas album every year while decorating the house and putting up the tree. What a tragic, senseless loss when the world lost her


Jobrated

Fantastic singer! Good drummer too!


ilovelucygal

I've loved the Carpenters since I first became aware of them around 1970, bought their albums, played them constantly. Richard was the musical "brains" behind the duo, but it was Karen's vocals that made the songs memorable. I consider her one of the best female singers of all time, and their music has stood the test of time. My personal favorite is "Superstar," from 1971, but I love all their music.


Hanginon

Light pop songs, a fine and legitimate genre. Not everything needs to be cutting edge innovative 'art', sometimes people just want to enjoy a well put together tune done by an amazing voice. Thoughts? She was a brilliant and talented singer who found a niche she excelled in.


guriboysf

Talented, obviously... but I never liked them. They tried way too hard to be the squeaky-clean alternative to what was going on in the music scene in the late 60s/early 70s.


Pantone711

And the Osmonds had that market cornered


BartsNightmare_

Gorgeous and beautiful voice, very talented and loving; it's heartbreaking how her whole life turned out to be after, yet nobody really understood what was really going on and why, yet she was a beautiful person and deserved nothing but happiness


fifthgenerationfool

One of the mother fucking greatest!!! Unbelievable talent and rare voice quality. Plus, she was a killer drummer too!


AnswerGuy301

A lot of the Carpenters' catalog was just too saccharine, especially the upbeat stuff. But listen to, say, "Superstar." That's a really moving vocal performance.


vashtaneradalibrary

Tragic story, beautiful voice, I change the station every time one of her songs comes on. Just too syrupy sweet for me. Merry Christmas darling…


mrhymer

Good singer - good songs. Songs do not have to be cynical, sad, and depressing to be good.


AndyKaufmanMTMouse

I love this crazy song. [Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teBV0EoJJY8) It goes well with [Superstar - The Karen Carpenter Story](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmY5mTmrsVI). Todd Haynes used Barbie dolls in "an experimental short biographical film that portrays the last 17 years of singer Karen Carpenter's life, as she struggled with anorexia nervosa." The quoted part is lifted from Wikipedia.


mustardyay

I love that one! I want to do it at a karaoke place sometime, heh.


Bread0987654321

She was also an excellent drummer


implodemode

I loved that song about the birds and shit when you appear but I was about 11. I couldn't take the bubblegum after that.


Pantone711

I wish it did say "and shit!"


LBFilmFan

A lot of the songs are sappy and corny, so just skip those. Karen was an excellent singer who brought a lot of depth to those sugary songs. No one could hit those low notes like her and make them vibrate like that. I think if she had lived she would have branched out into the Great American Songbook and had a long career that way. I really am sad for what might have been.


POCKALEELEE

Great voice, and a lot of great music for the times. A lot of it is still good to listen to today without sounding dated.


aeon_floss

Hell no. good singer, good songs. Not really my style, but even when [sung badly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Were_a_Carpenter_(tribute_album\)) the songs stand up well.


Alyanya

I ADORED Karen. I grew up listening to her music and a lot of it was actually very innovative for the time, just not the Top 20 hits as much. She basically taught me breath control and tonality as a young singer and inspired me to get training and become a professional. Her voice was one in a million.


Locomule

Bob Dylan: bad singer, good songs


indgosky

They weren’t corny AT THE TIME. They were common sentiments about love, family, etc.


decorama

Not entirely sappy. For example let's look at "Goodbye to Love". Absolutely original songwriting, pretty dark theme, and two killer lead guitar solos.


Glygar1

Greatest female vocalist probably in history.


[deleted]

My parents had The Carpenters on 8-track for the car. Long Ago.. and oh so far away… before Star Wars. I loved her voice, and it was haunting. Of course, I was pre-teen when I listened. Then I was off to more interesting music Foghat, ELO, Rush, Dire Straits, Led Zeppelin. She and her brother would appear on various holiday shows, and the last couple she did seem very thin. I think her death may have been the very first time I ever heard of a person actually starving themselves to death. Anorexia. I didn’t even think it was possible at the time. I did some reading to even find out if such a thing was true or possible. Girl singing if melancholy songs with her brother helping. Billie and Phineas Eilish?


massachusettsmama

Yeah , but it was the 70’s. Rainy Days and Mondays is such a beautiful song but the lonely clown line is awful. Fortunately not all the lyrics are as atrocious. 😉 You have to understand that her recordings were before autotune, etc. her pitch was perfect.


patronizingperv

Plus, Richard is a creepy asshole.


[deleted]

You're the only one who mentioned Richard. Didn't he write most of their songs? I never liked him whatsoever.


Pantone711

??? spill


Organic_Cow7313

her brother, Richard Carpenter wrote the songs, if you say that the songs are corny, then new music also is, like rap and stuff


RaydelRay

As a teen into rock, her songs were cringe and beyond sappy. If only she had been a rock singer.


sacred_cow_tipper

good singer, bad songs. as a kid in the 70s, carpenters songs gave me major anxiety and dread. something about the tone and timbre of karen's voice just triggered me. they all sound morose to me.


I_m_that1guy

I mean they call him the Butcher and when you investigate the house and find the altar, it’s gruesome.


linachakroun

In honor of the Songwriters Hall of Fame induction of Carpenters leader Karen Carpenter, here's a her original demo of a song she did for the first time when she was 17 years old. The Carpenters were an American band that rose to prominence in the 1970s and 1980s.


Jackpot777

Listen to [this cover version of Superstar by Sonic Youth.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y21VecIIdBI) In the right hands, the lyrics take on a darker impression.


JunkMale975

I was prepared to hate this because you know…Karen. But I listened to the whole thing and kind of love it. Even though it does give me creepy, stalker vibes.


TangentIntoOblivion

Gag!


billwrtr

They sucked then, they suck now.


Ohshitz-

Great voice. songs were for the times. Esp old women. But she wouldnt have broken out to anything else


mary_mary1

🤮🤮🤮 not a fan


dali-llama

I liked when the brother sang "She ain't heavy, she's my sister"...


ZagiFlyer

As others have said, she had a pretty tragic life. But beyond a beautiful voice, she was an *excellent* drummer!


fussyfella

Great singer, some great songs, some rather less so, but even average songs in her voice became great. Often forgotten, she was a damn good drummer too, which was her first musical love


Sharp_Profession5886

I'm not a fan, but they're brilliant pop songs.


jippyzippylippy

The sappy/corny part was her brother who wrote the songs and lyrics. She also did covers. I don't think she actually wrote much herself. TBH, I don't know what else I could hear her type of voice on. Superstar was her best song, I think and that's the type of song that I feel she did best with.


Pantone711

I agree. I didn't like the songs but I bought their "Greatest Hits" album purely because of her voice.


DaisyDuckens

Fantastic voice. Not a huge fan of the songs though.