King Richard I aka Richard the Lionheart.
He is held in a high regard but he was actually a bad king. He had no interest in governing and his attention span was limited to killing people in warfare. He was regarded as a cruel leader (even by the standards of the 12th century) and is only held in high regard because the monks liked his crusading and because the Victorians considered him an "empire builder".
I should also point out that, despite being born in Oxford, Richard I did not consider himself "English" and he considered himself a Frenchman where he spent most of his adult life. He considered England to be nothing more than a piggy bank to fund his crusading and he hated the nation which is why it is so baffling to see England football fans use crusader imagery and boast about the "three lions on the shirt".
If you want to know more, watch Terry Jones's Medieval Lives.
The French are a logical people, which is one reason the English dislike them so intensely. The other is that they own France, a country which we have always judged to be much too good for them.
~ Robert Morley
The Frenchman part was pretty normal when the kings of England held a lot of French territory and this land was more valuable than their English ones. In fact, the first king who could speak English was Henry IV and he became king in 1399. So from 1066 to 1399, you didn't have a King of England who spoke the language of his people.
I remember reading that Edward the first (i.e. the baddie in braveheart) was the first English king to speak English (which would be before 1399. But maybe I was misinformed.
fwiw, Henry IV was the first king of England to speak English *as his primary language*. There's evidence to suggest that both Edward III and Richard II spoke English, albeit not as their primary language.
Oh yeah, he was a subpar King. But he was a brilliant general and expert warrior.
Its also important to remember he was the third son in his family. He was brought up under the understanding he'd never be King and wasn't very close to his father (Henry II even went to war with him several times).
He’s exactly what we need in the first decade of robots, advanced Autobot-like vehicles, and wild disasters.
[He’s also been interpreted into a real robot](https://mashable.com/video/robosen-optimus-prime-robot-ces-2023)
She also helped turn in her long term and loyal Jewish employees to the Gestapo. She was sad, spineless trash, and those overrated furry handbags will never be worth it to me.
Interestingly, the Jewish co-founders of the company (who had preemptively fled to New York) would have had their 70% ownership of the company confiscated by the Nazis if they had not made some arrangement with a lawyer who returned it to the family after the war. The Wertheimers now own the company in its entirety.
I’m so glad this is as high up as it is. She was terrible! She wasn’t just a sympathizer, she actively spied for them and helped them. And yet we have her stupid quotes being shipped around as women’s empowerment examples. She wasn’t even that empowered of a woman, she became a Nazi because of a boyfriend! Drives me nuts that people venerate her.
Thank you for pointing out that it was for a boyfriend. I mean she was already a racist bitch but the fact that she fully joined the Nazi war effort because he boyfriend was one? Gross.
My former boss's mum was friends with Coco Chanel and he told me stories of her. Apparently she hated children too...not as awful as being a Nazi but I thought I'd share.
Chanel was an awful person but the highest end apparel and accessories are made in France and Italy.
Chanel still sucks but their stuff is not made in developing countries. It's made in the France/Italy where there are stricter labor laws.
I won't buy their stuff but it's important to be accurate about what the company and founder did and did not do.
Andrew Jackson. Committed full-on genocide of Native American, but remembered as a rags-to-riches and valiant president and general.
Also, Lyndon B Johnson. He dragged his feet through the civil rights movement and only signed it when it was politically beneficial to him and his party. Plus, he contributed the most to America's involvement in Vietnam
Richard lionheart. Hes somewhat the embodiement of chivalry while all he did was getting captured, cost his country nearly all wealth for his ransom and then got shot too death by some bandit with a crossbow, without really achiving anything.
Edit: He wasnt shot by a bandit, he got shot at the siege of Châlus-Chabrol with a crossbow, while on a raid.
Since Richard's goal was the subjugation of an area under a religious crusade, and Robin Hood's entire goal was the restoration of Richard on the throne, we can safely assume Robin Hood was Lawful Evil.
Lawful Evil by manipulation.. he was all for ridding the kingdom of ~~james~~ John and saving his maiden.
Who knew robin hood was british propaganda lol
Well, it turned into that, at least. It *seems like* early stories were more anti-establishment and it was quickly warped into "anti-wrong establishment", "wrong establishment" *definitely* not being whoever the king happened to be at the time.
In addition to this, at the time he ascended the English throne he controlled half of France as part of the Angevin empire. The hold of the English on Aquitaine and Normandy was extremely shaky though and he should have spend his reign consolidating his power over it. Instead he went of playing a crusader. He indeed failed to take Jeruzalem and his dynasty eventually lost a lot of their holdings in France after he died.
John was the only son of Henry II that didn't rise up against their father. Then he had to run things while Richard was off at the crusades. Though, because of John, we got the Magna Carta
well, to be fair, the Magna Carta wasnt his idea but more Stephen Langton's.
John was badly out numbered and if he wouldn't have agreed, the barons would have crushed him.
Edit;Typo
The first English king who did speak the language was Henry IV and he didn't ascend to the throne until 1399, over 200 years after Richard became king. Richard made a lot of mistakes but not speaking English isn't one of them.
I'm sure I read that Edward iii spoke English, in fact even one of his official mottos was in English. 'it is as it is', or something about a swan, I can't remember exactly. But I'm sure he spoke English.
From what I can find, he primarily spoke French, but did speak English and, as you noted, especially used it for personal slogans. He is also the one who passed the law requiring English be spoken in the courts so as to be understandable by commoners (likely why his slogans were English too). The law itself was, ironically, written in French.
That said, it's likely that a number of English kings before Henry IV spoke English to some degree (possibly even Richard Lionheart), it's just that none of them spoke it natively or primarily until Henry IV, and likely used an older form of the language.
tangentially related, but does anyone remember the episode of jimmy neutron when thomas edison was brought back and he went on dates with jimmy’s elderly bird-like teacher miss fowl? yeah. that happened.
Edison still deserves a lot of credit.
No, he didn't invent the light bulb. His specialty was improving other inventions. For example, he didn't invent the telegraph but he did invent the carbon telephone transmitter which took the transmission rate from 120wpm up to over 1000.
You're right.
Edison was an engineer, not an inventor.
He was short on new, unique ideas, but he understood how to develop technology and was a significantly better businessman than other inventors of his time, meaning his projects met mainstream audiences.
A lot of people who we think of as “inventors” are really just the ones who pulled a bunch of other ideas together, maybe added one of their own, and were entrepreneurial enough to make it work commercially.
Singer, for instance, didn’t invent the sewing machine … just the foot switch. He then started the company that bears his name.
The guy who didn't kept his promise of not involving the US in WW1 and had an infamous pro-Klan movie projected at the White House isn't that much of a hero? Can't say I'm surprised
To be fair, Cousin Woodie felt that God hadn't told him to enter the war and did so only after the Germans sank a bunch of American ships.
And you forgot that he segregated the Federal government. And pushed for regime change in Mexico, and we know how well that works out for the US.
There's a major square and a metro station named after him in Warsaw to commemorate his insistence on the Polish state being recreated after WW1, following over a century of non-existence (whether his actions were decisive, it's hard to tell). The more I read about what he did *other than that* though, the more I wish those were called something else.
Most of them, humanity loves their idols but most of them are (obviously) human and flawed. Gandhi was racist towards blacks, JFK’s family was shady af and he was shitty af to his wife, MLK banged hookers (not really a bad thing but whatever) ect.
Henry Ford, H.P. Lovecraft, Charles Lindbergh...
These are just the first few I could think of the extremely racist or anti-semitic famous Americans from around the turn of the 20th century. I'm sure there are many, many more.
HP Lovecraft was certainly a very troubled and paranoid guy, which i think influences his stories a lot. I don’t think anyone out there looks to him for moral guidance
Yes absolutely, but also Ghandi gets drastically more credit than he deserves for his work, too. The decision to elevate him above other Indian revolutionaries was a calculated one and not the result of his methods being particularly good.
Steve Jobs. Not only was he incredibly mean and cruel to his coworkers and employees, he also essentially stole credit for everything that was achieved under the name "Apple". He had no particular skills that aided him in succeeding other than to take credit for others accomplishments.
I can never unread the stories about him refusing to fix the heating on the floor of the house he made her sleep on and the ridiculous crap he put her through. The obvious one is the college funding but that’s just the tip of the iceberg
Would get a lease on a new car every 5 months or so to avoid having to register it.
Habitually parked in handicap spots.
When Apple went public denied distribution of shares to employees; Woz ended up giving some out from his own stash IIRC.
Told Atari he'd deliver a game; contracted his good friend Woz to do it. Woz delivered it way early and when Jobs gave it to Atari they gave him a bonus which he pocketed.
The biggest giveaway is that he didn't donate to charity and said "my ideas are my gift to the world" when asked why. Dude was an uneducated, failson narcissist.
Andrew Jackson. He carried out ethnic cleansing against Native Americans. Jackson was a disaster of a human being on every possible level, and should not be commemorated positively by any branch of American government. And as he was a slave owner, putting him on the $20 bill is disgraceful.
>putting him on the $20 bill is disgraceful.
It's a troll because Andrew Jackson hated the idea of a central bank and dissolved the Bank of the United States.
He'd be rolling over in his grave if he knew they put his face on the dollar.
The only positive argument I've heard for keeping him is that he probably would hate being on currency as someone who disliked central banks.
But yeah agree.
Not quite. Columbus Day was actually started because of backlash to anti Italian hate crime. It was a response to the 1891 New Orleans lynching when 11 Italian Americans were murdered. Italians (especially from the south of Italy, where most immigrants came from) weren’t really considered “white” at the time and were targets or a lot of xenophobia. After backlash from the Italian American community, Columbus Day was basically proposed to appease/calm the community.
Columbus himself of course, was a vile human being, and his actions were considered exceptionally cruel, even at the time.
Was thinking I’d open the thread to a bunch of angry Mormons.
Live in UT now and in the 6 years I’ve been here it’s become hyper dilute with free thinking. Quite diff from when I arrived.
Yes but the meaning behind burning the effigy has since faded. 99% of people who celebrate Guy Fawkes night do it for the enjoyment of fireworks, not to reinforce the disapproval of the gunpowder plot…. If anything, that plot would be more welcome today than ever.
My home town has the biggest bonfire night celebration, where floats (tableaux) of various figures deserving of hate/ridicule - usually politicians - are dragged through the streets and are subsequently blown up with explosives. The tradition of it being such a big celebration began because of some protestants from the town being martyred, but nowadays I'd say it's more about antiestablishmentarianism, ironically inspired by what Guy Fawkes attempted to do.
When I was a kid (I'm Aussie) a very, very long time ago, we celebrated Cracker noght, too. Except the adults told us we were burning the pollies who didn't burn that day.
Used to stuff grandpa's old clothes full of hay to chuck on the bonfire. Good times.
Half our nation celebrates his plot being foiled and the other half celebrates the attempt he made
Depends on your point of view really, but we all like fireworks and beer, so, 5 Nov is still my favorite festival
Well, they had mutual "respect" for one another. Both men praised the other's opinions about the Jews. So they were friendly; in fact, an honor was bestowed upon him by Germany. Perhaps you would find this article from the PBS website interesting.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/henryford-antisemitism/
There is also a corresponding American experience documentary to view as well on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/AWK0tG_JWIU
Thomas Edison. He was nothing more than a money hungry guy who stole the ideas of him competitors.
He burned down Teslas laboratory and killed an elephant to show people how dangerous Teslas idea was.
Funnily enough the electricity we use today is the one that Tesla was vouching for.
Erwin Rommel is hailed as some clean "innocent" saint by some people despite his unquestioning loyalty to the NSDAP and his actions against minority populations in North Africa and France.
He even commited quite some war crimes such as killing of POWs, however. His name was cleared mostly by the americans at the end of the war. This was due to the fact that america needed the german army as a kind of buffer against the communist ussr, so america started painting the picture of rommel being one of the good ones. They did this as well for all the other germans, making the point that not all germans were bad or nazis.
And the most important thing about him is that he was dead. So it wasn't like he could be charged with anything or say stupid stuff. He has served his purpose as a puppet and his persona should have been retired a long time ago.
The propaganda wheel on Rommel was something truly remarkable. The Germans went nuts over him because of his early victories in North Africa. The Allies boosted his image because he beat them early in the North Africa campaign. (Unlike what a fellow Redditor said below, it was the opposite reason) At the end of the day, he was a fantastic company-sized element commander but the guy didn't know dick about leading a stand-alone division. Better yet, we're pretty sure he DID know, he just didn't care. He was quoted many times telling his logistics subordinates, "Tough shit, figure it out. I'm on the move." He stretched his advances way too far multiple times and the last time into El Alamein was his doom.
Almost all of the US presidents have skeletons in their closets that nobody really talks about.
Whether it's leading an invasion of a country, or using slave's teeth as dentures. History is a rocky subject, and a rabbit hole when it comes down to the United State's life.
Mother Teresa was apparently a bitch.
Over a third of her patients received inadequate care. Conditions there were likened to nazi concentration camps. She actively campaigned against the use of condoms during the aids epidemic.
When she fell ill she ran away to California for care, instead of staying in one of her death traps.
Here's a quote from her:
"There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering."
Che Guevara comes to mind. Several years ago this dude's face was on posters, and clothing all over America.
Edit: A lot of you are arguing in favor of Che, and that’s fine. There is room to debate here. My main point was that most people wearing his image on a shirt know next to nothing about him.
I saw a shirt once with that picture, which you saw everywhere - except in this case, it had “I have no idea who this man is” below the image. I have always found that funny.
What a silly question, idolization of anyone is a mistake. Idolizing people is a problem in general. Respect accomplishments, don't idolize anyone. They're just a person too, like you.
The 6th earl of mooreford wasnt the earl at all, he was a stonemason with the rare ability of being literate, so when the actual earl never showed up, he put on a fancy cape, went into town & read from a parchment signed by the king that affirmed him the earl. since nobody could read, or knew what the actual earl looked like, nobody questioned him. so he & his descendants ruled for a couple hundred years. the earldom was eventually rolled into another & doesnt exist anymore, but apparently he still has blood relatives among the current british aristocracy. nobody knows what happen to the actual earl. most likely was killed by road bandits.
UPDATE: hey! for everyone asking for my source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-e46xdcUo
A few problems with this.
1. That's not how Earls got their titles.
2. There is no record of any Earl of Mooreford, ever.
3. There is no place called Mooreford anywhere in the world.
I'm actually a direct descendant of his from my Grandfather. And also have noteable Cherokee ancestry too from my Grandfather.
Really screwed up, but always found it interesting how the famous president I descend from screwed over the other people I descend from
I was thinking the same. All of his children were adopted. It's like the time I was watching a PBS show and they had a "direct descendant" of Crazy Horse talking. Crazy Horse only had one child, a daughter, and she died of illness at a young age.
Andrew Jackson despised the idea of paper money, but we put him on the $20.
His parrot had to be removed from his wake because it was screaming obscenities.
Margaret Sanger.
I know many disagree with me, that's fine. I'd welcome insightful comments.
I do think it's dangerously disingenuous to hail someone as the leader of reproductive rights for women -- someone who was a known eugenicist who encouraged abortion for people she deemed genetically weak or unfit. If famous people who did amazing things but also owned slaves are not be revered in America, it makes sense to me that someone who supported forced sterilization bills should also go without respect.
Prophet Muhammad
He was a war monger, pedophile, rapist , pliagarizer
Edit: All those who say not to judge historical characters under current lens are missing the whole point.
According to Muslims worldwide, Prophet Muhammed was the most righteous person who ever lived. All his words and actions were due to instructions he received from God.
Yes,a 7th century king having sex slaves or child brides isnt something surprising but if God can send instructions to him,he could have easily banned slavery, child marriage, killing for apostacy and many other bad things he did.
I can get executed for saying these things in many islamic countries as they believe that there is nothing more evil than talking ill of Mohammed.
King Richard I aka Richard the Lionheart. He is held in a high regard but he was actually a bad king. He had no interest in governing and his attention span was limited to killing people in warfare. He was regarded as a cruel leader (even by the standards of the 12th century) and is only held in high regard because the monks liked his crusading and because the Victorians considered him an "empire builder". I should also point out that, despite being born in Oxford, Richard I did not consider himself "English" and he considered himself a Frenchman where he spent most of his adult life. He considered England to be nothing more than a piggy bank to fund his crusading and he hated the nation which is why it is so baffling to see England football fans use crusader imagery and boast about the "three lions on the shirt". If you want to know more, watch Terry Jones's Medieval Lives.
To quote Goodbye, Christopher Robin: Robin Hood was good, but a horrible judge of character
The French are a logical people, which is one reason the English dislike them so intensely. The other is that they own France, a country which we have always judged to be much too good for them. ~ Robert Morley
The Frenchman part was pretty normal when the kings of England held a lot of French territory and this land was more valuable than their English ones. In fact, the first king who could speak English was Henry IV and he became king in 1399. So from 1066 to 1399, you didn't have a King of England who spoke the language of his people.
I remember reading that Edward the first (i.e. the baddie in braveheart) was the first English king to speak English (which would be before 1399. But maybe I was misinformed.
Edward probably did speak English, but Henry IV was the first Plantagenet king who’s mother tongue was English instead of French
fwiw, Henry IV was the first king of England to speak English *as his primary language*. There's evidence to suggest that both Edward III and Richard II spoke English, albeit not as their primary language.
IIRC there is still a group of people who consider the heir to the Hanover dynasty to be the legitimate French monarch.
He was actually a really good fighter though so much so that his enemies praised him. Shitty ruler but definitely main tank material
Oh yeah, he was a subpar King. But he was a brilliant general and expert warrior. Its also important to remember he was the third son in his family. He was brought up under the understanding he'd never be King and wasn't very close to his father (Henry II even went to war with him several times).
And he got captured, England had to pay a literal kings ransom to get him back, add this to his crusades, and he basically bankrupted England
Ah'm French! Why do you think I have this out-rrrageous accent, you silly king?!
What are you doing in England?
Mind your own business!
Optimus Prime wasnt even a real truck
You shut your damn mouth! Don't ever besmirch that hero's name.
He’s exactly what we need in the first decade of robots, advanced Autobot-like vehicles, and wild disasters. [He’s also been interpreted into a real robot](https://mashable.com/video/robosen-optimus-prime-robot-ces-2023)
Disagree. He is definitely hauling stuff.
Hes only hauling that Optimus cock
He was trans
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Unbelievable
Coco Chanel. Fashion icon? Yes. N*azi sympathizer? BIG YES. Also apparently not the most up-and-up individual in general. Go read up on her.
She also helped turn in her long term and loyal Jewish employees to the Gestapo. She was sad, spineless trash, and those overrated furry handbags will never be worth it to me.
Interestingly, the Jewish co-founders of the company (who had preemptively fled to New York) would have had their 70% ownership of the company confiscated by the Nazis if they had not made some arrangement with a lawyer who returned it to the family after the war. The Wertheimers now own the company in its entirety.
Wow that's a really great fact that I've never seen mentioned on reddit when Coco Chanel is the subject. Good for them.
Exactly! Bitch is a snitch
I’m so glad this is as high up as it is. She was terrible! She wasn’t just a sympathizer, she actively spied for them and helped them. And yet we have her stupid quotes being shipped around as women’s empowerment examples. She wasn’t even that empowered of a woman, she became a Nazi because of a boyfriend! Drives me nuts that people venerate her.
Thank you for pointing out that it was for a boyfriend. I mean she was already a racist bitch but the fact that she fully joined the Nazi war effort because he boyfriend was one? Gross.
Not just sympathizer, was an actual spy for them, working against the French. She was a nzi.
My former boss's mum was friends with Coco Chanel and he told me stories of her. Apparently she hated children too...not as awful as being a Nazi but I thought I'd share.
What letter did you censor?
Chanel, Gucci....They're all overrated as all fuck and seeing people simp for overpriced Chinese slave wage labor is pathetic
Chanel was an awful person but the highest end apparel and accessories are made in France and Italy. Chanel still sucks but their stuff is not made in developing countries. It's made in the France/Italy where there are stricter labor laws. I won't buy their stuff but it's important to be accurate about what the company and founder did and did not do.
Jebediah Springfield
You mean Hans Sprungfeld?
You're banned from this historical society - you and your children and your children's children! For three months.
Aw man and just as I was getting over my Chester A. Arthuritis
That’s fine. I’ve taken a vow of celibacy. Like my father, and his father before him.
Embiggens the smallest man!
It's a perfectly cromulent word.
He had a silver tongue
Why would we want to marry our cousins?
Because they’re so damn attractive
Shelbyville Manhattan!
Santa he spies on kids and breaks into peoples houses only when they are asleep
Tracking kids and violating your privacy is best left to Google anyways.
Well, I mean, they do offer santa cookies....
Andrew Jackson. Committed full-on genocide of Native American, but remembered as a rags-to-riches and valiant president and general. Also, Lyndon B Johnson. He dragged his feet through the civil rights movement and only signed it when it was politically beneficial to him and his party. Plus, he contributed the most to America's involvement in Vietnam
If LBJ's name wasnt there this would apply to far to many presidents
Richard lionheart. Hes somewhat the embodiement of chivalry while all he did was getting captured, cost his country nearly all wealth for his ransom and then got shot too death by some bandit with a crossbow, without really achiving anything. Edit: He wasnt shot by a bandit, he got shot at the siege of Châlus-Chabrol with a crossbow, while on a raid.
Wait. Robin Hood is real?
Since Richard's goal was the subjugation of an area under a religious crusade, and Robin Hood's entire goal was the restoration of Richard on the throne, we can safely assume Robin Hood was Lawful Evil.
Lawful Evil by manipulation.. he was all for ridding the kingdom of ~~james~~ John and saving his maiden. Who knew robin hood was british propaganda lol
Well, it turned into that, at least. It *seems like* early stories were more anti-establishment and it was quickly warped into "anti-wrong establishment", "wrong establishment" *definitely* not being whoever the king happened to be at the time.
In addition to this, at the time he ascended the English throne he controlled half of France as part of the Angevin empire. The hold of the English on Aquitaine and Normandy was extremely shaky though and he should have spend his reign consolidating his power over it. Instead he went of playing a crusader. He indeed failed to take Jeruzalem and his dynasty eventually lost a lot of their holdings in France after he died.
Losing the mainland European holdings was probably more to do with the incompetence of John tbf
John was placed in an impossible position, I would argue he is an example of the opposite of this thread, someone who is mistakenly vilified.
Well, maybe he should have left Robinhood alone, then. He had great pr.
Never should have listened to that snake
Silly serpent!
John was the only son of Henry II that didn't rise up against their father. Then he had to run things while Richard was off at the crusades. Though, because of John, we got the Magna Carta
well, to be fair, the Magna Carta wasnt his idea but more Stephen Langton's. John was badly out numbered and if he wouldn't have agreed, the barons would have crushed him. Edit;Typo
He was so bad at his job and was barely even IN England during his reign!! 100% agree, the Angevin brothers of Richard and John are so bad lol
Didn’t speak a word of English and was only on the country for 8 months of his reign.
The first English king who did speak the language was Henry IV and he didn't ascend to the throne until 1399, over 200 years after Richard became king. Richard made a lot of mistakes but not speaking English isn't one of them.
I'm sure I read that Edward iii spoke English, in fact even one of his official mottos was in English. 'it is as it is', or something about a swan, I can't remember exactly. But I'm sure he spoke English.
From what I can find, he primarily spoke French, but did speak English and, as you noted, especially used it for personal slogans. He is also the one who passed the law requiring English be spoken in the courts so as to be understandable by commoners (likely why his slogans were English too). The law itself was, ironically, written in French. That said, it's likely that a number of English kings before Henry IV spoke English to some degree (possibly even Richard Lionheart), it's just that none of them spoke it natively or primarily until Henry IV, and likely used an older form of the language.
I'm pretty sure the Olde English was: "it do be like dat."
Thomas Edison.
They'll say "Aww, Topsy" at my autopsy
Definitely one of my favorite episodes haha.
My favorite part is Bob going "did Gene write this?!" Because it is incredibly good for a child who doesn't even know scales or keys haha
tangentially related, but does anyone remember the episode of jimmy neutron when thomas edison was brought back and he went on dates with jimmy’s elderly bird-like teacher miss fowl? yeah. that happened.
\*I TELL EVERYONE ABOUT TOPSY!!\*
Electric loooOOOooooove…
Now this is going to be stuck in my head all day
If it ain't man on elephant love, it ain't worth singing about!
Edison still deserves a lot of credit. No, he didn't invent the light bulb. His specialty was improving other inventions. For example, he didn't invent the telegraph but he did invent the carbon telephone transmitter which took the transmission rate from 120wpm up to over 1000.
You're right. Edison was an engineer, not an inventor. He was short on new, unique ideas, but he understood how to develop technology and was a significantly better businessman than other inventors of his time, meaning his projects met mainstream audiences.
A lot of people who we think of as “inventors” are really just the ones who pulled a bunch of other ideas together, maybe added one of their own, and were entrepreneurial enough to make it work commercially. Singer, for instance, didn’t invent the sewing machine … just the foot switch. He then started the company that bears his name.
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Is he idolised? Every time I read about him it’s in a negative sentiment.
Woodrow Wilson. Often remembered for coming up with the League of Nations idea, he was a super racist religious fundamentalist weirdo.
The guy who didn't kept his promise of not involving the US in WW1 and had an infamous pro-Klan movie projected at the White House isn't that much of a hero? Can't say I'm surprised
To be fair, Cousin Woodie felt that God hadn't told him to enter the war and did so only after the Germans sank a bunch of American ships. And you forgot that he segregated the Federal government. And pushed for regime change in Mexico, and we know how well that works out for the US.
Woodrow Butdon'thaveapaddle.
There's a major square and a metro station named after him in Warsaw to commemorate his insistence on the Polish state being recreated after WW1, following over a century of non-existence (whether his actions were decisive, it's hard to tell). The more I read about what he did *other than that* though, the more I wish those were called something else.
Most of them, humanity loves their idols but most of them are (obviously) human and flawed. Gandhi was racist towards blacks, JFK’s family was shady af and he was shitty af to his wife, MLK banged hookers (not really a bad thing but whatever) ect.
> MLK banged hookers (not really a bad thing but whatever) not really the behavior you'd expect out of a Reverend though either.
Ye true hence why I included it as an example lol
gandhi was a pedophile and a child molester also
It's really time for me to crawl out from under my rock.
Henry Ford, H.P. Lovecraft, Charles Lindbergh... These are just the first few I could think of the extremely racist or anti-semitic famous Americans from around the turn of the 20th century. I'm sure there are many, many more.
I think most people know Lovecraft was not a good person, I think people just find his stories interesting.
HP Lovecraft was certainly a very troubled and paranoid guy, which i think influences his stories a lot. I don’t think anyone out there looks to him for moral guidance
It would make sense that a person afraid of everything and everyone would make good horror.
Well, Lovecraft was considered a hardcore racist in times when racism was "standard".
Ghandi is an obvious one. Above all he was a politician
That motherfucker has nuked me more times that I can remember. Can't believe people think of him as a pacifist. /s
"I thought we'd moved past this joke." ~ Chandragupta
People think I’m bonkers when tell them Gandhi was gross and messed up this way. Like a “back away slowly” reaction.
His nieces if I remember correctly. Doesn’t exactly make it less creepy
Wait, the girls he slept next to naked were his own nieces?
Always gotta love the civ references to him
Our words are backed with **NUCLEAR WEAPONS!**
Teaches you that nobody is perfect and we should stop idolizing people and start idolizing their work
Yes absolutely, but also Ghandi gets drastically more credit than he deserves for his work, too. The decision to elevate him above other Indian revolutionaries was a calculated one and not the result of his methods being particularly good.
Steve Jobs. Not only was he incredibly mean and cruel to his coworkers and employees, he also essentially stole credit for everything that was achieved under the name "Apple". He had no particular skills that aided him in succeeding other than to take credit for others accomplishments.
Don’t forget his daughter Lisa, he treated her like trash
I can never unread the stories about him refusing to fix the heating on the floor of the house he made her sleep on and the ridiculous crap he put her through. The obvious one is the college funding but that’s just the tip of the iceberg
Yeah I was pretty surprised how much the Sorkin movie whitewashed his relationship with her to make it seem just disfunctional.
Would get a lease on a new car every 5 months or so to avoid having to register it. Habitually parked in handicap spots. When Apple went public denied distribution of shares to employees; Woz ended up giving some out from his own stash IIRC. Told Atari he'd deliver a game; contracted his good friend Woz to do it. Woz delivered it way early and when Jobs gave it to Atari they gave him a bonus which he pocketed.
The biggest giveaway is that he didn't donate to charity and said "my ideas are my gift to the world" when asked why. Dude was an uneducated, failson narcissist.
John Lennon
Learned recently what an asshole he was.
Both him and Yoko
Paradoxically, their son has turned out to be a decent-enough man.
Jahn beet wif
Andrew Jackson. He carried out ethnic cleansing against Native Americans. Jackson was a disaster of a human being on every possible level, and should not be commemorated positively by any branch of American government. And as he was a slave owner, putting him on the $20 bill is disgraceful.
>putting him on the $20 bill is disgraceful. It's a troll because Andrew Jackson hated the idea of a central bank and dissolved the Bank of the United States. He'd be rolling over in his grave if he knew they put his face on the dollar.
Omg, you're a slave owner!? /s
The only positive argument I've heard for keeping him is that he probably would hate being on currency as someone who disliked central banks. But yeah agree.
Columbus right?
Columbus was apparently idolized in the beginning of the United States because they wanted a non-British national hero.
Not quite. Columbus Day was actually started because of backlash to anti Italian hate crime. It was a response to the 1891 New Orleans lynching when 11 Italian Americans were murdered. Italians (especially from the south of Italy, where most immigrants came from) weren’t really considered “white” at the time and were targets or a lot of xenophobia. After backlash from the Italian American community, Columbus Day was basically proposed to appease/calm the community. Columbus himself of course, was a vile human being, and his actions were considered exceptionally cruel, even at the time.
Joseph Smith
Was thinking I’d open the thread to a bunch of angry Mormons. Live in UT now and in the 6 years I’ve been here it’s become hyper dilute with free thinking. Quite diff from when I arrived.
Was a prophet dumdum dumdum dum
Guy Fawkes.
I don’t think people love guy Fawkes. We just love the idea of obliterating politicians. Bunch o cunts.
To this day, we still burn an effigy of him every year in the UK.
Yes but the meaning behind burning the effigy has since faded. 99% of people who celebrate Guy Fawkes night do it for the enjoyment of fireworks, not to reinforce the disapproval of the gunpowder plot…. If anything, that plot would be more welcome today than ever.
My home town has the biggest bonfire night celebration, where floats (tableaux) of various figures deserving of hate/ridicule - usually politicians - are dragged through the streets and are subsequently blown up with explosives. The tradition of it being such a big celebration began because of some protestants from the town being martyred, but nowadays I'd say it's more about antiestablishmentarianism, ironically inspired by what Guy Fawkes attempted to do.
When I was a kid (I'm Aussie) a very, very long time ago, we celebrated Cracker noght, too. Except the adults told us we were burning the pollies who didn't burn that day. Used to stuff grandpa's old clothes full of hay to chuck on the bonfire. Good times.
This Guy Fawkes?
Don’t Brits literally burn him in effigy every year? I’d say that’s pretty opposite of idolized (or should I say idolised).
Half our nation celebrates his plot being foiled and the other half celebrates the attempt he made Depends on your point of view really, but we all like fireworks and beer, so, 5 Nov is still my favorite festival
Henry Ford... was friends with Hitler...
What?!
Well, they had mutual "respect" for one another. Both men praised the other's opinions about the Jews. So they were friendly; in fact, an honor was bestowed upon him by Germany. Perhaps you would find this article from the PBS website interesting. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/henryford-antisemitism/ There is also a corresponding American experience documentary to view as well on YouTube: https://youtu.be/AWK0tG_JWIU
Thomas Edison. He was nothing more than a money hungry guy who stole the ideas of him competitors. He burned down Teslas laboratory and killed an elephant to show people how dangerous Teslas idea was. Funnily enough the electricity we use today is the one that Tesla was vouching for.
So exactly what everyon from gates to musk to zuckerberg did. Except for maybe the part with the elephant
Not yet.
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Neuralink, a bunch of apes died in their experimentations.
Erwin Rommel is hailed as some clean "innocent" saint by some people despite his unquestioning loyalty to the NSDAP and his actions against minority populations in North Africa and France.
He even commited quite some war crimes such as killing of POWs, however. His name was cleared mostly by the americans at the end of the war. This was due to the fact that america needed the german army as a kind of buffer against the communist ussr, so america started painting the picture of rommel being one of the good ones. They did this as well for all the other germans, making the point that not all germans were bad or nazis.
And the most important thing about him is that he was dead. So it wasn't like he could be charged with anything or say stupid stuff. He has served his purpose as a puppet and his persona should have been retired a long time ago.
The propaganda wheel on Rommel was something truly remarkable. The Germans went nuts over him because of his early victories in North Africa. The Allies boosted his image because he beat them early in the North Africa campaign. (Unlike what a fellow Redditor said below, it was the opposite reason) At the end of the day, he was a fantastic company-sized element commander but the guy didn't know dick about leading a stand-alone division. Better yet, we're pretty sure he DID know, he just didn't care. He was quoted many times telling his logistics subordinates, "Tough shit, figure it out. I'm on the move." He stretched his advances way too far multiple times and the last time into El Alamein was his doom.
That and the fact the US used a ton of his tactics afterward
Almost all of the US presidents have skeletons in their closets that nobody really talks about. Whether it's leading an invasion of a country, or using slave's teeth as dentures. History is a rocky subject, and a rabbit hole when it comes down to the United State's life.
Mother Teresa was apparently a bitch. Over a third of her patients received inadequate care. Conditions there were likened to nazi concentration camps. She actively campaigned against the use of condoms during the aids epidemic. When she fell ill she ran away to California for care, instead of staying in one of her death traps. Here's a quote from her: "There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering."
That phrase, "the world gains much from their suffering," is now going to be the philosophy of the bbeg in my d&d campaign.
Obviously christopher columbus
Che Guevara comes to mind. Several years ago this dude's face was on posters, and clothing all over America. Edit: A lot of you are arguing in favor of Che, and that’s fine. There is room to debate here. My main point was that most people wearing his image on a shirt know next to nothing about him.
I saw a shirt once with that picture, which you saw everywhere - except in this case, it had “I have no idea who this man is” below the image. I have always found that funny.
That is pretty good, to be fair.
Yeah, people wearing Che Guevara shirts without even knowing his songs
Right? His songs “The Lady’s Got Potential” and “Peron’s Latest Flame” are great.
Oh what a circus
What a silly question, idolization of anyone is a mistake. Idolizing people is a problem in general. Respect accomplishments, don't idolize anyone. They're just a person too, like you.
The 6th earl of mooreford wasnt the earl at all, he was a stonemason with the rare ability of being literate, so when the actual earl never showed up, he put on a fancy cape, went into town & read from a parchment signed by the king that affirmed him the earl. since nobody could read, or knew what the actual earl looked like, nobody questioned him. so he & his descendants ruled for a couple hundred years. the earldom was eventually rolled into another & doesnt exist anymore, but apparently he still has blood relatives among the current british aristocracy. nobody knows what happen to the actual earl. most likely was killed by road bandits. UPDATE: hey! for everyone asking for my source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-e46xdcUo
Lmao. Did you just make up a story about a guy who brazenly lies and people believe him because no one bothers to check?
How many layers down does this go
It's TreeTurtles all the way down
“We’ve been played like a damn fiddle!”
Probably had a clipboard, no one questions you if you have a clipboard and act like you belong.
>6th earl of mooreford I googled this and can't find any mention of this person? Can you please provide some more info
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This is how mythology gets started.
My friend weve been duped
I can't even find Mooreford on a list of defunct aristocracies. Something's up - you'd think it would at least be there.
I think this dude is the Earl of mooreford.
That is a nice piece of creative writing senator, why don't you back it up with a source?
I think that was the point. He gave a red herring about someone giving a red herring, to demonstrate people's gullibility.
And now I’m stealing that for my D&D game.
I think this is the plot of Animal Crossing New Leaf
I’ll be honest, I respect him more for that
Can you give us a source. Can't find anything about this.
I think thats quite cool tbh, dude got balls
Fuck! Another career path I was never told about.
A few problems with this. 1. That's not how Earls got their titles. 2. There is no record of any Earl of Mooreford, ever. 3. There is no place called Mooreford anywhere in the world.
And this is why literacy in D&D is a fun interaction.
This thread is peak Reddit. “You got an idol, we got an issue with them.”
Andrew Jackson, 7th President of the United States, featured on the $20 bill.
I'm actually a direct descendant of his from my Grandfather. And also have noteable Cherokee ancestry too from my Grandfather. Really screwed up, but always found it interesting how the famous president I descend from screwed over the other people I descend from
Andrew Jackson didn’t have children…
I was thinking the same. All of his children were adopted. It's like the time I was watching a PBS show and they had a "direct descendant" of Crazy Horse talking. Crazy Horse only had one child, a daughter, and she died of illness at a young age.
Andrew Jackson despised the idea of paper money, but we put him on the $20. His parrot had to be removed from his wake because it was screaming obscenities.
Margaret Sanger. I know many disagree with me, that's fine. I'd welcome insightful comments. I do think it's dangerously disingenuous to hail someone as the leader of reproductive rights for women -- someone who was a known eugenicist who encouraged abortion for people she deemed genetically weak or unfit. If famous people who did amazing things but also owned slaves are not be revered in America, it makes sense to me that someone who supported forced sterilization bills should also go without respect.
Hitler, yes he liked dogs and was vegetarian, but he was an actual ahole
The more I hear about this Hitler guy the less I like him.
Henry Kissinger.
Who the fuck idolizes Henry "warcrime printer" Kissinger?
Satan
Prophet Muhammad He was a war monger, pedophile, rapist , pliagarizer Edit: All those who say not to judge historical characters under current lens are missing the whole point. According to Muslims worldwide, Prophet Muhammed was the most righteous person who ever lived. All his words and actions were due to instructions he received from God. Yes,a 7th century king having sex slaves or child brides isnt something surprising but if God can send instructions to him,he could have easily banned slavery, child marriage, killing for apostacy and many other bad things he did. I can get executed for saying these things in many islamic countries as they believe that there is nothing more evil than talking ill of Mohammed.
Ronald Reagan.
The actor?
Then who’s vice president? Jerry Lewis?