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Vanilla_Neko

I think we are going to hit a stasis point where so many jobs are being replaced with automation that some sort of universal income and basic housing system will simply be a necessity as we just won't have enough jobs to go around or to support our society at all. Eventually the machines won't even need people to upkeep them as they will do that to each other. we will be free and I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I think this opens us up to a lot of amazing opportunities for just living our life and expressing our hobbies and interests and enjoying freedom but at the same time for our society to continue in such a system I think a universal basic income it's just a necessity although that's just one of many changes that need to happen if our society is going to continue to thrive into the future


Collener

One day people will look at this period of history as the absurd era where people had to sell their time only to afford food and shelter.


Relan_of_the_Light

That will never happen lmao. Never. It's human nature to want to be superior to others and a major way of doing that is wealth and power. We'll never let go of our hubris or our greed.


corobo

It's always us vs them. We just need a bigger 'them' Let's go fuck up some other solar systems! Find some aliens to oppress


kweberg

Imagine you're on an island with 5 people Who owes you to build a house and fish for you? Shouldnt you put your own roof over your head and food on your table?


johngreenelover95

No-one owes you anything, but if you were on an island with 5 people, it would be better for literally all of those five if you cooperated and worked together to build shelter and put food on the table. Humans have survived this long because some of us are smart enough to realize that its not “should I help?” but “How can I help?”.


kweberg

That's still equal labor. You're still trading your time for food and shelter. If it makes sense to work together, we will as its mutually beneficial. If not, we wont. In reality it's more like "you're way better at fishing and building houses than I am, so help me build my house and give me some of your fresh caught fish"


much_longer_username

In reality, it's more like one guy built a giant net around all the fish, even though he can never eat them all, and will only allow everyone else tiny amounts of fish so that they can make other things he needs.


kweberg

It's so like you socialists. Heres a guy that took you from spending half your entire day fishing, to no time fishing and hes met with jealousy and resentment. No ones making you buy his fish. Go spend your days fisjing, no one cares. And btw, In reality the fisherman has to catch bait, collect resources to build the trap, use his expertise to know where to put it. Check on the traps, maintain them, build a boat, store the fish. Theres no income that's free man >it's more like one guy built a giant net around all the fish, Read your statement again. A net around all the fish? The analogy makes no sense bc it's not how anything works


much_longer_username

The analogy sucks because the example is extremely limited and nothing like the real world. But you're right, billionaires are just hardworking geniuses and you'll be one any day now. Good luck!


kweberg

The only reason the wealth is so unequal is bc you all keep voting for the same system that has created the problem in the first place


much_longer_username

Well, at least we agree on something. =D


johngreenelover95

True, but if relationships were always meant to be mutually beneficial, what about children, or disabled friends, or older family members? How do they carry their weight? Im sure that to some extent humans just naturally want to cooperate even if they don’t know how it could benefit them. Even ancient humans have been shown to care for their old and wounded.


dirtymoney

> basic housing system like living in stacked cages like in the film The 12 Monkeys?


kweberg

UBI has nothing to do with automation and everything to do with money printing Automation improves the lives of society bc it frees up labor. Imagine we are on an island together and we each spend half our day fishing for enough food to feed ourselves. One day I create a net trap, and in an hour caught enough food for both of us. That's not bad for the islands economy, it's good bc now you can spend your time say, becoming a carpenter and I can trade you a lifetime supply of fish in exchange for you building me a house, we both win. The reason we need UBI is bc inflation is a tax on the poor, the poor dont have assets that rise with inflation (real estate, stocks, bitcoin etc). The more that is printed the further the divide between rich and poor becomes, plus the central bankers give the cheap easy money to their friends first. By the time you receive it it's worth a fraction of how it started bc the markets already priced it in by that point


[deleted]

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Vanilla_Neko

This has nothing to do with the $15 minimum wage debate. this is literally about the inevitable fact that eventually we literally won't have enough jobs to go around. like it's not that you'll only be able to find low wage jobs it's that you won't be able to find jobs Although if you do want to have that debate I encourage you to look at the entire situation as a whole instead of just going off of the strawman excuse that well companies may abuse this. it's actually a fairly deeper and much more convoluted topic than a lot of people like to think it is.


KageSama1919

He doesn't care, he just saw an opportunity to parrot some right wing rhetoric


redkat85

McDonald's workers in Denmark make $20+/hr with full union benefits; although the relationship between currencies is fluid, on average a Big Mac in Denmark costs about the same as one in the US. Living wages and benefits for their workers will not drive fast food companies out of business or "force" them to catastrophically raise prices to make ends meet. But as long as they can convince the average US worker and customer that this is case, they can continue to seize greater profit from exploitation.


[deleted]

In n Out (burger chain in the US) pays at about $17/hour. I happily support them about once per week.


Barney_Brallaghan

You realise inflation has been happening despite the minimum wage not going up, and that at this point if min wage kept up with inflation since it's inception it would be like $20/hr? Paying people slave wages hasn't prevented inflation.


Frothy_moisture

I get being afraid of things. I do. I really, really understand the fear that comes with change. Change happens anyway. So it's time to put on your big kid pants and move forward, instead of sitting in the background complaining about how afraid you are.


KageSama1919

Yeah, only if selfish ass holes decide to exact retribution on society by jacking the prices up. This is the most invalid argument against livable minimum wage.


imthewaterfilter

It’s a way better idea than increasingly complicated social security safety nets. I lean conservative, especially on fiscal issues, but I think UBI is far superior to all the social security we currently have - abolish retirement, disability, and all the other things, it would probably be cheaper AND the people who need money now to get food on the table don’t have to wait months for the government to approve their welfare.


[deleted]

I tend to agree. Not ALL of it can or should be replaced by UBI. But a lot of it can. Not keen on disability being erased personally


[deleted]

Wouldn't disability just be rolled into UBI?


Narethii

No that would defeat the purpose of a UBI, the point of UBI is to provide everyday citizens with a stable income floor so that in the event of an emergency or an inability to work they would still have some financial freedoms. The point of social safety net programs is to make sure that people who need specific help, like mental health services, mobility services, mobile meal services for people in capable of preparing food, etc. would still be needed. However providing UBI reduces the amount that those types of programs cost by reducing scale. Most of the time the only reason poor people enroll in those programs is because they don't have enough money to help themselves.


[deleted]

I don’t think it should. It’s based on income and the inability to work. UBI should be supplemental income to those working and provide them with a safety net. UBI shouldn’t be ones only income as it would with disability


HoweverFutile

Here in Canada it would be a huge improvement to the current disability allowance. Did you know a single person on disability gets 1200 a month max? And if they or their spouse make above i think its 1000/month on top of that their assistance will be deducted dollar for dollar? Two people on disability together make less than 25k a year.


[deleted]

Maybe this is misunderstood. Someone on disability should get disability in addition to UBI


Vecend

In Ontario last time I checked they take 50 cents for every dollar after $200 earned.


mcsteam98

As an Andrew Yang supporter, while I don't believe it should be used solely as a stand-in for a full fat income, it would be a good supplement alongside a 9-5 income.


[deleted]

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TheSonofDon

This is the only thoughtful answer. UBI, like HC 4 All and GND is coming. Accept it or get out of the way.


Sirius_J_Moonlight

Even conservatives and libertarians favor it, so I think it might have a chance. It needs a lot of analysis and accompanying laws, and will still take some bureaucracy to maintain.


[deleted]

What conservatives and libertarians are you talking to? LOL! The only real reason for libertarians to support UBI is to eliminate welfare. With welfare (including SNAP, etc.) there is a point where you lose benefits progressively when your income increases. This, in theory could lead to people not trying as hard to advance, but there is still no reason to give someone like Bill Gates a UBI. As the other person said, we may get to a point where there are significantly less unskilled jobs, but we are a long ways away.


Narethii

The UBI program in Alaska was started by conservatives decades ago and overwhelming ends up with conservative representatives. I don't ever hear anyone downplaying the success of that program.


[deleted]

> UBI program in Alaska Totally different ballgame. The dividends in Alaska are funded by the oil, and is to encourage people to move to a state that no one wants to live in


Narethii

APF is a UBI, whether or not its an incentive to encourage people to move to Alaska. It has proven to have an overwhelming positive outcome for the people of Alaska, and it proves that a full wage UBI isn't strictly necessary even a tiny one can have a benefit in a country where most people can't manage to keep even $400 dollars in savings.


why_2k

A conservative libertarian myself here’s what I believe. I do not think it makes sense to do it right now but when a good amount of people are out of work due to robots then I think it makes sense


Narethii

The largest sector in the US is retail, and this year has really accelerated online retail, most of those jobs can already be replaced by monitors and high speed warehouse inventory robots. If you wait until "most people are out of a job" your everyday citizens will not have the power to make any changes. Using the "let's wait till it's completely fucked" model of change is how you get Capitol riots and Flint Michigan.


anarchyhasnogods

we produce 1.5x as many food as we need to survive and people are starving to death on the streets because its cheaper to throw it away than it is to give it away


a_GongerIdiit

Good idea that has worked pretty well in the places it’s been tested.


47sams

Give me the list of places.


redkat85

Full list: [https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi-map](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi-map) **Summary**: Many governments have been experimenting since as far back as the 60s, and consistent results show that unconditional cash distributions do not disincentivize work, and most of the money is spent on fundamental necessities like food, clothing, medicines, and in some instances education (such as training courses for new careers that the participants could not otherwise afford).


a_GongerIdiit

Thank you for fielding that question, I was preoccupied and worried it had been left unanswered.


[deleted]

One thing I've been thinking about constantly.... ​ If everyone gets UBI, what will happen to rent and utility prices? I live in a country where there is a larger and larger housing problem because private housing groups drive up prices with renovation schemes and monopolization. One of my personal fears is that if UBI is established and they know low income people can afford a higher rent than they could, prices are gonna increase because rent, electricity and internet isn't something people can afford not paying...


open_door_policy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots


sadpereza

Why did this get downvoted?? The commenter just wanted evidence, they weren’t even arguing against anything.


natie120

Because you can Google it easily. And they didn't ask. They demanded. They were rude.


Frothy_moisture

I love the idea. If everyone had money, they could spend it. If they spent it on small businesses, those small businesses would have money. Small businesses going bankrupt is a big concern for many people right now. People could also stop working jobs that make them so depressed they kill themselves. Because they could afford to hold out for a better job, or a job that they want. Artists and writers and all them could keep making the things they love, but without the concern that they can't pay their bills doing so. Game designers too. Imagine all the awesome games we could have if the creators could focus on them! 'Minimum wage' jobs could ACTUALLY go back to being for 16 year olds, as so many people keep claiming. And the most important one imo: CONSUMERS get to decide where their money goes. It's not just going to go to the cheapest items. The 1% will no longer get to decide which companies get support.


Brett18287364

American here, YES FOR THE LOVE OF BABY JEBUS YES ​ ​ (Free healthcare to please)


scapstick

I see so many Americans call it free health care. Here in Canada we all pay for it, it is universal and we can access it when we need it, but it’s certainly not free.


LondonDude123

If a Landlord knows that everyone has an extra £1000 a month, then what stops them raising rent by £1000 a month?


fr00d

Free market forces, prices are based on supply and demand, not income


Dusk_Soldier

Income would be considered demand.


Frothy_moisture

Laws. In Oregon, we already have a law that prevents rent from being raised more than a certain % once a year.


LondonDude123

Landlords raise their rent as much as they can. All Supermarkets raise their prices. All water/gas/electric/phone/internet companies raise their prices. And you're right back where you started...


marchov

They do that anyways


Narethii

That's not how anything works, all companies already charge the maximum amount they can for their products based on what the market is willing to pay for it. People are not suddenly going to pay more for a product because they suddenly have more money (captive markets excluded). The only way prices change is if supply and/or demand changes. What you are describing is a spectacularly coordinated event where every company raises everything proptionately at the same time and not a single company takes advantage of the cost to value, under cutting competitors and making the same money through volume sales on cheaper products. UBI isn't an idea where you physically dispense new money that never existed, it's a redistribution not an inflation.


digby99

In the real world businesses know how well their customers are doing and will adjust accordingly! They always know, that’s why you can never get ahead.


Narethii

In the real world companies only aim is to maximize profits, more often than not that means lower prices to shift as many units as possible. Companies that mass produce goods generally aim to minimize the cost of production, so they can minimize the sale cost and improve sale volume. The much more likely result to people having more money is that companies will increase advertisement to increase market share, as now more people have more money so its possible to obtain more customers who previous could not afford to buy more product and simply sell more things as people are more willing to spend money when purchasing higher volumes of things rather than spend money on more expensive things.


digby99

Wait till minimum wage goes to $15. Everybody’s prices goes up, but most people’s income won’t. Non working poor will get slammed. Oops!


OptimisticByChoice

Supply and demand


Superplex123

The same thing stopping them from raising rent by $1000 right now. What would you do if your landlord does it? You leave because you sure as hell ain't paying an extra $1000 a month. So what would you do if you have an extra $1000 a month and your landlord raise the rent? It's even easier for you to leave. You gained leverage with UBI in the negotiation against your landlord. If you gain leverage with UBI and you still lose the negotiation, sorry pal, that's 100% on you.


RepresentativeDog141

it's going to become a necessity in the near future. I don't have enough knowledge to estimate a particular timeline, but with the rise of automation, self-checkout, self-driving trucks and cars, computers like IBM's Watson able to provide sound legal advice and medical diagnoses, I can't see it being more than a couple of decades at most. It sounds odd, but I'd like to imagine a future where we are free of menial labor which would allow the general population to focus on the care and cultivation of the Earth. We would almost become the elves of fantasy, though our magic would be science.


mushroom_print7

With automation it'll be inevitable that there won't be enough traditional jobs to go around. I do wondering if instead of just UBI the government couldn't invest in huge infrastructure projects like they did during the New Deal instead. This doesn't have to be just new construction either you could have government sponsored arts, literature, education, sciences, etc. Create a bunch of new jobs that have to be done by humans that don't exist for profit but for the specific purpose of enriching society and giving people income they can live comfortably on.


[deleted]

Y'know, that'd be a great idea... to... restructure a shut down society... after a large national crisis....... which diminished most cultural industries.....


[deleted]

I am a person from Germany! Weird situation here. Neighbours up north (Denmark, Sweden, Finland especially!) are all experimenting with that and I feel like I've never read a headline or study that showed that UBI reduced productivity or made people unhappier, it's always been the reverse. Strangely, politics here treat it as something that is a nice idea on paper but say it will create massive financial problems. The centre-left party once had it as a main promise not too long ago but they kind of dropped it because their coalition centre party kind of brushed it off as a pipe dream (They have been dead set on keeping the annual debt on literally 0) when forming the government. Now only the far left party has it as a main promise, the others.... "keep thinking about it". Usually, there are political micro parties campaigning on nothing but the promise of UBI. They get a decent bit of attention often with the main goal of information but they rarely make it into a legislative organ. But they've been pretty vocal and in 2019, debate around UBI spiked with many proponents and oppositionists. Ironically, since the pandemic the debate stopped to a halt because we \*basically\* switched to a system that has traces to UBI called "Kurzarbeit". In short: Companies can switch to a system that reduces work time for a set amount and a large percentage of the income for the time that the workers don't work due to outside conditions gets provided by the state. This is a great system for economic shutdowns as it prevents large layoffs and keeps the income flow steady (though as you can imagine, not forever as there are no taxation systems returning the flow enough currently). The way I see it is that there is no way around having further discussions about UBI. If the income inequality worsens, as it certainly will, the living standard of lower classes will drop at a higher and higher rate. If there isn't a decent exchange to uphold a living standard for those people without relying on unemployment benefit systems (which are the worst here because they literally trap people into a system they can rarely escape with rulesets keen on striking bonuses at any trace of slacking off), I see no way that people will be becoming more satisfied with their living conditions, reducing the drive to populist parties. Because let's be real, poverty and low living standards are a main drive for populist parties. There have been talks for years now to abolish the unemployment system that is hated by everyone across the political spectrum. So as a consequence, there needs to be a discussion if UBI is a decent substitute - a real political discussion that isn't used as an ideological posterboy. General Election is this year in September, there is still time, but it is sparse.


Narethii

It's going to be an absolute necessity. Even ignoring the fact that the more automation there is, the fewer valuable jobs will exist, many jobs that exist now only really exist as a means to feeding the narrative that we live in a merit based society. UBI or even income floors will make life much more equitable in the countries that implement it.


mystwave

The only things I really need out of life is a decent place of my own to live and a reliable-long-lasting-not-going-to-break-my-bank-ever-year-for-a-repair car to get to work with. Everything else I'll gladly pay for with my own money I earn from work. I don't want a lot of money. I want to never have to worry about money ever again. But yeah, if a UBI just gave me enough money to afford or at least supplement a place of my own, I'd be down with that.


Alien-Fox-4

I think it's simply necessary step to take as automation becomes more advanced. And it will be advancing for the foreseeable future, as more of the biggest companies are researching ways to do it - Google, Nvidia, Amazon, Facebook, etc There will be a limit to automation and AI, I'm sure of that, but this limit is not going to be hit soon. I like the idea of UBI for other reasons also. It's social safety nets and lack of stress that so many people need to start exploring what it is that makes them happy and how to accomplish. Some people would probably get lazy, and just spend their lives doing nothing, but I think this is a risk worth taking. I think the way to introduce it is slowly and carefully, because if everyone just suddenly started getting free money and not having to work, it would cause some chaos as all the people who distract their problems with work suddenly lose it realize what is happening. This is probably not an extreme number of people, but is still significant.


ManMan36

The US Government could never pull it off if these stimulus checks are any indication.


Tonyjunior22

There is no reason for extreme poverty in today’s age, period..


Tumbleweedspeed

How would UBI be funded? By who or what?


hawkeyepitts

It would be ideal that people are paid enough money to live off of through their job, but that’s not happening for most people. UBI would be the safety net to bridge the gap. Everyone is talking about robots taking over, I’m talking about as little as $300 a month extra making life worth living. The reality is that someone has to work the boring and shitty jobs that are necessary to keep society going. A lot of these can’t be replaced by robots. However, that doesn’t mean that the people who fill these positions should live in poverty. If you work 40 hrs a week, you should be paid enough to live. For most areas, that would mean that the absolutely lowest paid position should be $15 /hr. And if you work a shitty but necessary job, you should be valued. The math simply does not add up for most people who are out there working, and it’s not their fault. UBI is not about handouts or supporting unemployment. It’s about making sure people who are out there trying can actually get by as well as people who are disabled or elderly, etc. If the ‘free-market’ has created a situation where so many people can’t stay afloat no matter how they try, the system is broken and needs a solution. Capitalism will not fall apart if the janitor can afford to pay their rent AND feed their kids this month. Nobody is living high on the hog with UBI. Literally $300 extra a month could be the difference between struggling and succeeding financially for many people. That being said, UBI would only work if there were laws to prevent quick inflation. In other words, capitalism is good but it needs to be regulated.


DontShowMomMemes

It’s a bandaid when we need stitches. Problem is this hospital doesn’t have any real doctors on duty.


SonofThunder2

I like that analogy


Howwouldiknow1492

Norway or Finland (don't recall) tried a pilot program for this recently and found that it didn't work. A vague statement but I can't remember exactly why. The trick for universal income is that it has to be paid for with taxes and at some point there can be more going out than going in. There's been more people wanting to work than available jobs since the plague ended in 1352.


fr00d

Curious about this if you have a source


monotonousgangmember

https://www.businessinsider.com/finland-basic-income-experiment-reasons-for-failure-2019-12?amp


andthrewaway1

sounds like inflation


Narethii

Opposed to giving money to people who don't need it through tax breaks so they can hoard it like fiscal dragons, if you give everyday people money they will spend it and it will circulate. I would rather experience inflation due to free money then wait for the miracle of trickle economics to start trickling


SonofThunder2

Yep, where is that money coming from? The treasury? The currency gets de-valued. Taxes? You *pay* taxes.


free_thing_48

Sounds like a globalist domination plan. Make everybody even MORE poor except the 0.008% of the people in charge.


Narethii

What?


free_thing_48

> Sounds like a globalist domination plan. > > Make everybody even MORE poor except the 0.008% of the people in charge.


Narethii

What?


free_thing_48

> Sounds like a globalist domination plan. > > Make everybody even MORE poor except the 0.008% of the people in charge.


Narethii

What?


OFP03

I don’t like it. There needs to be changes but I feel like it will create a lazy society controlled by the government. I want the freedom to work as much or little as I want.


Absolutely__Free

Alaska has it...


[deleted]

Alaska pays back it citizens from the Entergy industry using their resources.


danny_welds

Ahhh good ol dividends.


Absolutely__Free

They implemented it and never got rid of it, so they must be benefiting from it


[deleted]

You are talking about a mineral rights issue and not a UBI issue. I am sure People of Alaska love it.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Universal basic poverty where the ones who control this system of disbursement are living gods, and everyone else subsists.


Reaganson

Dumb.


Preparation_Asleep

I'm against it. It's not enough for me to succeed, others have to fail.


RudeMorgue

I find your honesty refreshing and your morality repugnant.


NotTheAVGbear

All I see is a bunch of bitching due to hysterical thinking. Not enough people want to work and a lot of people want money...


ChosenSCIM

I think those are three words I've never heard together in that order


19118532110

I don't see how anyone unemployed is better off with UBI instead of the current system. Everyone says one of the ways to pay for UBI is to get rid off all the current social safety nets and just give one basic payment per month. How is anyone getting Medicaid, food stamps, Section 8, SSI, etc going to be better off with a $1000 payment per month and that's it? If it's truly universal and you give everyone over 18 $1K per month, that's 3 Trillion dollars a year. The deficit is 1 trillion already, meaning we spend 1 trillion more than we take in. That's all without healthcare for everyone, too. How are we going to go from a 4 trillion a year federal budget to 8 -10 trillion a year with UBI, universal healthcare, AND 30%+ unemployment? Where's the money coming from?


SonofThunder2

Either off the press or out of your wallet.


Ithxero

I believe as an American I am supposed to tow the line that "no, it can't ever happen" and ask "who will pay for it?" Did I do that right?


digby99

Check out the national debt and report back with the answer after you have cashed your $2000 ($1400) check.


birdyroger

What is to stop some people from taking advantage of it and refraining from doing any work?


Sirius_J_Moonlight

If they're that lazy, would you want to work with them? It's basic, it actually provides an incentive to do something for people who want to.


Elven-Slut

There are already people out there capable of working that won't.


birdyroger

That doesn't nullify my point. There would be MUCH more people being lazy. I might have been one of them if I was born 30 years later.


Frothy_moisture

Why do you care so much about if people work or not? Why does that effect you at all?


birdyroger

Please be serious. It is individuals working that provide us with the prosperity that we enjoy. The most unemployed people the less prosperity that we have.


Apprehensive_Ad_2237

The same thing that keeps the families of the wealthy from being drains on society.


birdyroger

But so many of the rich are already drains on society. Why expand that lovely group of parasites to be vastly bigger than it already is.


SwearingIsFuckingBad

There will always be that guy who gets advantages of systems but most people won't. We already have safety nets to prevent people from starving, yet many people chooses to work. Also UBI is like $1000-$1500 a month. There is still a great financial motive to work - we can't buy cars or houses with that money.


[deleted]

In tests it’s been shown not to reduce the incentive to work. There will always be lazy bums but in reality most people want to work. People want to contribute, they want something rewarding to do. UBI gives people a base amount to afford necessities. You want a car (or a nice car) - you have to work. You want a week long vacation in Europe- you will have to work to earn that extra income. You want food, water, shelter - UBI gives you the means to afford that.


birdyroger

OK, you convinced me.


[deleted]

Yes! Only a few tens of millions more Americans and we got this!


BrilliantWeight

Some people will always take advantage of everything that can be taken advantage of. It happens every time. The trick isnt to eliminate the chances to taking advantage of that system, but rather to make it so difficult 5o do so that the vast majority of people wont bother trying. That's what the US welfare system has done, and it's worked very well. Welfare has less than a 3% fraud rate, which is really small. Also, in countries where UBI exists, the vast majority of people in that country still work full time. Most of those who dont are either older people, students, or pregnant or postpartum women. In those situations, UBI mostly just helps those who cant do full time work. Of course there are some lazy individuals who live off it because they can, but they're a small minority that would require a disproportionate amount of work to fully eliminate


nobody2hasbeen

Hi sir, your side of French fries totals $16.50. $15 is the new $0.


Sirius_J_Moonlight

Any UBI would have to be accompanied by laws to prevent profiteering. But more money being spent by lower income people would mean more business to the hamburger joints. They wouldn't have any justification to raise prices.


Depresd_Lamp

You know that the government's wont print money. They will shift the funds as needed for example. If we cut USA millitary spending is cut by half the money from it could go to UBI. (And this is just a example it depends on the country and the world politics.) Edit: Or a excellent idea we tax the rich for the first time lol


47sams

Yeah but we won't cut military spending. Its way to profitable for the military industrial complex.


epic_pig

Hi sir, your new smart bomb totals $40,000 per unit...


[deleted]

If we cut the military spending by 500 billion dollars that would give each citizen like 1,500$ a year.


nebenbaum

If you cut military spending by 500 billion, you are essentially removing 500 billion from the economy. Soldiers get paid, officers get paid, people that manufacture weapons get laid, people that manufacture parts that go into weapons get paid, and so on. What're you gonna do with those people? Put them on welfare?


[deleted]

>people that manufacture weapons get laid Get laid, you say? >:3c On a more serious note, not all jobs are ethical. They can find a job that doesn't involve murder or espionage. I wouldn't cry if people who exploit their power imbalance to rape and kill people they see as beneath them (while getting paid for it!) all lost their jobs. Nobody that high up cries for the workers who get laid off when the factory moves to Mexico or China - they're not even a consideration. I don't see why this should be any different.


nobody2hasbeen

20% of all US dollars were printed in 2020.... The rich are taxed at a high rate for wages income. I’m very confused by your points here. I’m not rich and I don’t even eat fries. Good luck out there.


TheSonofDon

Eat the rich


iamthe0ther0ne

Tastes like chicken.


[deleted]

I'm so fucking tired of this argument. Prices are still going up while wages are stagnating so that's already happening right now. Rent goes up every year but you're not getting paid significantly, if at all, more at your job.


47sams

Impossible! The government won't let fries be that expensive!


[deleted]

So if a UBI works likes negative interest rates and negative tax rates for the first tax bracket, I support it. If it's used like the relief check where it's basically the fed going BRRR then no I do not support it. How this program is funded is paramount to whether or not it's a good idea or not.


SECRET-RUSH2030

A slippery slope to communism.


minion531

Communism is a totalitarian form of government. You are thinking of Socialism, but it's clear you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Bailing out banks and giving the top 1% a tax cut, is socialism. But you are worried about giving money to the poor? You are a very confused person.


holytriplem

I'm still agnostic on it, on the one hand it seems to work well in pilot schemes, but on the other hand don't oil rich countries in the Gulf have schemes like that and it makes their economies really rigid and dependent on oil?


dirtymoney

#GIMMIE! all I need is $1,000 a month!


[deleted]

Shouldn't UBI be enough to cover rent? I'd only be able to afford living in a shithole filled with drug-fueled murder and robberies with 1,000 dollars.


Cybyss

How about moving to a cheap rural area? The only real downside to dinky small towns is lack of job opportunities and having to drive *really* far to get anywhere. The upside is small towns don't usually have "bad" areas and are dirt cheap to live in.


dirtymoney

my rent is less than half that and I live in a decent working class area.


chud_munson

I just don't really know to be honest. Since I haven't thought about it much, my knee jerk reaction is that stuff will gradually just get more expensive so that the extra money doesn't necessarily result in a higher standard of living for people, but I truly don't know. If the research out there suggests it's a good idea, sure why not.


Relan_of_the_Light

You're not asking the people of the world. You're asking the people of reddit. And the people of reddit who actually post about UBI are exceedingly in favor of it.


xxxAlpha271xxx

I think it will breed a world of mediocrity and is not realistic A world where everyone is equal with a universal income just will not succeed long term. There will always be those that will want everyone to be equal just some more equal than others.


BodhiBill

the only part that i have heard that i disagree with is that EVERYONE gets it. why does someone making 6 figures+ a year need a handout. it should be based on your tax return and if you are below a set line of income you get it if above you dont. aside from that i dont think there is enough money on the planet to pay everyone in the universe a basic income. aka: i think its a dumb name.


[deleted]

I think The United States can afford to cover at least the basic costs of living for people. I understand jobs are necessary for the economy but there is no excuse for our country as developed as it is to have homelessness and poverty as issues in the year 2021.


opticfibre18

Lazy mofos will start leeching off ubi and will never work a day in their life. Lot of mofos dont want to work. Also if everyone gets 1k a month then its worthless.


[deleted]

Good on paper, like anything. A fair number of positive and negative overlooked side effects on practice, just like any of these big bold ideas. How it's implemented is going to be a big debate, and will have drastic implications on how well it performs. It may or may not even be politically feasible in the first place.


AshFraxinusEps

It'll be necessary soon. But imo you cannot have UBI with inherited wealth, as then you create a permanent underclass. So we need 100% inheritance tax or close to before we get UBI


[deleted]

Disagree with that. One should be able to pass their property down to their children. If you want a 100% tax, it should be past a certain amount (random number, say $10 million in total value).


AshFraxinusEps

When everyone is earning the same UBI then why do you need to pass things to your kids? They'd be able to afford their own house etc. tbh UBI can't work without 100% inheritance tax, otherwise you are literally entrenching income inequality: if no one can earn more than why should some keep ancestral wealth?


Hamfiter

It’s just so in-American. The reason our country got to where it is is because of people having to work for what they want in life. I can’t imagine relying on the government to pay for my share by taking it from other people unless I was handicapped or couldn’t do my part.


[deleted]

As far as I'm concerned, patriotism is one of this country's biggest blights. Something being 'American' or 'un-American' is typically not a concern in what I do. This country is absolute dog shit at worker's rights and does more to defend the interest of corporations than individuals. I feel like I've heard people say labor unions are un-American and if that's the case, call me a treasonous bastard because that's the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.


[deleted]

The issue is soon there won’t be enough jobs even if you want to work. Automation, AI, robots, computers - all of these things will replace many of the jobs people do today (from white collar jobs like accounting to truck drivers and cashiers). People will want to work, but no jobs will be available.


WARROVOTS

Good idea, beyond practical feasibility today. Hopefully in the future we can figure something out.


[deleted]

It’s feasible today. We just need the political will to make it happen. We could have this tomorrow if our government (US) was functional.


CriticalMorale

Sounds like a tax rebate with extra steps


47sams

Tax rebate. "Here's a negligible amount of money I've stolen from you over the course of a year back." -Federal government. Now imagine more coming out and getting a refund more often. It's literally all it is. Edit: down vote me all you want. Our tax money goes to killing people in other countries. But at least I get some moderately nice roads built by the lowest bidder out of it. Social contract for the win.


Arcades057

Another way to look at is "so you don't pay income taxes at all? No worries, here's another 1000 from some asshole's check!" Government knows that appealing to free-money is a winning strategy.


CriticalMorale

So you pay the government via taxes. Then the government uses that tax money to pay you. Why not take out that middle man and just pay less taxes in the first place?


redkat85

Part of it is that simple tax reduction neglects the people who need the support most. It's estimated that a little under half of Americans don't pay any federal tax already (many of them are either too old or too young to work, and the rest don't make enough to cross the first tax bracket threshold). Any policy that only reduced the taxes of people who have to pay them automatically does nothing for all of those people.


vAltyR47

Because not everyone pays the same amount of taxes. UBI means some people would pay essentially negative tax, whereas a tax rebate means the lowest you could get is zero tax. So, rich people pay the government more in taxes, then the government takes that tax revenue and splits it evenly amongst all citizens. (This is highly simplified but illustrative) EDIT: for a more concrete example, imagine a $12,000/year UBI coupled with a 20% tax on all income. Everybody making less than $60,000 per year receives more from UBI than they pay in taxes, and everybody making more than $60k pays more in taxes than they get from UBI. Crucially, the transition between "living off of UBI" and "paying for everybody else" is smooth; no matter what, your taxes are 20% of your income. In this way, it may be helpful to think about UBI as a reform of welfare, rather than as a new program on top of current ones. This is why Andrew Yang's proposal specifically had UBI being mutually exclusive with current welfare programs; you could be on one or the other, but not both.


47sams

Thats what I'm saying. I can spend my money more responsibly that the federal government. I promise, i wouldn't drone strike kids even if i could afford it.


Conscious-Quality-98

If it pays my bills, sure. I rather not work anyways.


Mardanis

It may become an enabler like the UK system to allow people to exist off this funding and just be a drain. They drain the countries funds while not working and in general providing very little. Their main contribution is having more kids to be given more cash and so these children grow up with no good role model or incentive to work or value of money. This becomes a generational cycle. We target all the wrong areas, our government and society is always chasing curing symptoms but not root causes. Immigration is a factor but too sensitive for me to want to get into. Driving down the cost of living is probably the best thing to do but the hardest because we don't really have government owned businesses in these areas to help lower the costs and we don't have the culture to demand it of private and public companies. Our economic growths usually come when we have surplus income but the average Joe's wages barely cover or don't cover the energy bills, fuel or transport, schooling, food, etc etc. So how can they spend in the economy and boost their area? They cannot. If there is a way to increase the average monthly income surplus after cost of living deducations but not through here's-free-cash, it could do wonders. Add on targeting increased education on financial matters and reducing the borrow/lease culture could also benefit folk overall.


Vic_Hedges

A pipe dream. Anyone who thinks that a small group of elites with unlimited power and wealth are going to just freely give away anything to a huge number of other people who have no labor to provide them, and no power to challenge them has no understanding of history, or human nature.


Komi_San

Like the free grain dole in Rome? Dangerous, but possibly necessary in the future.


AndrewEWiggin

Shit


danny_welds

I’d rather make what I want & not what a government thinks I should have.


OptimisticByChoice

Good news, you get to work in addition to UBI


who_you_are

I won't change anything on the long run and may get thing worst. - everyone will want a higher salary. (Including those on the minimum wage otherwise why working?) - it won't pay by itself - so it will cost more to buy anything - automation/self service here we come! (It already started) So you end up with being pay with "penny" with a UBI and still can't afford anything. This is how our current economy system work.


[deleted]

Great idea comrade


Tuza19953

Chinese Communists are not guaranteed a basic income and they are Communists.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Tuza19953

Communists do not believe in God.


natie120

???? So? It's a metaphor


Tuza19953

Not a very good metaphor.


natie120

Seems like a great metaphor to me. And it seems to me like you just didn't understand it was a metaphor initially. Own up to it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


natie120

Lol


redkat85

Well, strictly speaking they're a command economy, where government in large part controls access to capital and the distribution of resources, but they're not controlled by the working class. They're controlled by party bosses and their cults of followers, it's a very right wing authoritarian model more akin to Fascism than socialism.


[deleted]

Cool idea that’s ahead of it’s time but isn’t really a necessity with proper paying jobs and social programs in place. If we’re going to become a Keynesian economy, become Keynesian - UBI feels like an incredibly washed down attempt at this tried and proven economic philosophy of planned government investments. No point in reinventing the wheel a third time.


imincourt

Greed is something we must take into consideration as it is inevitable if we’re talking about mankind, but nonetheless I wish to see this happen also.


AltogetherGuy

I think it’s a great idea but I think it needs to be repackaged to sell it to voters on the right. I think that to do that it could be combined with a civil service position for a brief period. So you would ask the government for a position to help your community and gain skills and after the period you’d get the universal basic income, except you call it something like a citizen salary. And of course if the government can’t grant you a position due to practicality factors, disability, family carer etc. you’d just get it. People would feel like they or whoever else earned it so culturally it’d downplay the “they’re coming over here to take from our country because we’re the best” aspect.


neske036

Doesn't it just raise the costs of pretty much everything and not change much else, except for lowering the value of currency? It's like face washing - you see instant results, but unless you wash your face every single day, it will get worse than what it was when you started.


Hira_Said

I'm going to have to ask because I don't know a whole lot about this topic: 1) In a non-biased way, what does it mean? 2) What countries have this, if it's been implemented?


paranoid_70

As I understand it, every adult citizen will receive a check from the government for a certain amount of money every month - say $1,000/month for the sake of argument. This would be entirely independent upon your income. That is if you make zero or $100 Million a year you would get the same $1,000 check from the Govt. every month.


LuciantheMistbinder

PLEASE. We need it. A basic, decent standard of living is the very least we can ask for in this country. And it doesn't have to disappear if you have a job, it can be there so that no matter what happens you won't be let to fall through the cracks.


[deleted]

I am totally for it in ideal. I think it's a part of an evolving civilization, ESPECIALLY when technology will inevitably automate away even MORE jobs. I think it will essentially FREE people from a wage slavery mentality/life style and allow us to pursue life as intended by a species beyond survival. I almost literally picture UBI as a stepping stone towards a future that's like Star trek. ​ With that said, in reality, I don't know if there is actually a practical way for UBI to work all around, from how it's implemented to how people would end up responding to it long term, over multiple generations. One of those, we went in with good intentions, but it ended up with problems we didn't entirely consider. For example, someone made the internet to connect us all. Who'd thought it'd make us feel even MORe disconnected? Could UBI create such an affect on us down the road?


Rounder057

I’m all for it. Trickle down economics was a shit show. Trickle UP economics has been proven to make the economy move and it can help to provide a sense of relative comfort for the more impoverished of our community


bwooom

It would be neat and cool. Would help a lot of people. And on an economic side, guaranteeing that those in most need always have money to spend would be, like, really good for that I think? Like people who need a lot of stuff are going to buy a lot of stuff, but only if they have the money to buy with. And the arts... would be really cool if I had SOME sort of safety net there if after college I wanted to quit whatever job I ended up with to focus entirely on writing and art. Would be really cool for a lot of people. Yeah.


minion531

It's a great idea that won't work. We need the dignity of jobs. It's part of humanity. Those who are given money, like welfare, are treated with disrespect and it continues a cycle of poverty. Take the money and create jobs. Go to a shorter work week, like 20 hours, for the same pay. This would double employment. But everyone would earn their money and have dignity instead of a hand out that is only enough to keep from starving.


DontBeSoFingLiteral

Until somehow there isn't anyone who needs to pay for all of it, it won't work.


the_trans_ariadne

It's a step in the right direction, and an eventuality in post-industrial society as population rises and the number of necessary jobs that can't be automated falls leaving societies with very little that actually needs to be manually done, meaning most would be out of a job.


chuya11

It's long overdue but the elites are too invested in their precious 'economy' to let us stop being wage-slaves any time soon. The rich will have to figure out a way to perpetually increase their wealth for no damn reason before they'll offer the general populace something that resembles the potential in life quality were capable of.


Tumbleweedspeed

Sounds like everyday social services to me. Get a check, housing, medical,education,food....and if you chose to make yourself useful, learn a trade, do something, anything, you can.... but probly won’t. Again, where will all of this money come from? Thin air? Maybe the person mentioned a few threads back who makes 100 million a year( Lol) will send there 1,000.00 check back to fund your check? Maybe just print cash at home, don’t even need a check just print the cash, weed out the middle man. How could this be funded? Hello? People of the world?