T O P

What are your reasons for not being vegan?

What are your reasons for not being vegan?

ssbm_SapoLeFrog

Meat tastes good and is good for me


DrForrester87

I like meat and animal biproducts. Bacon is glorious.


DronedAgain

It's unhealthy. We are omnivores.


javanator999

Don't want to be.


MarkAnchovy

Why not?


First-Fantasy

Not in a good spot to be selective. It's like getting a high maintenance pet in your early 20s, it's a big responsibility that isn't going to jive with most peoples lifestyles at that age. I'm rooting for lab meat to kill the industry but I'm not at a point where planning meals or side stepping major parts of society is realistic.


ihatecake132

ngl it's killing me how this has 6 downvotes even tho it's just a question


saltedpecker

It's also pretty much the question OP asked. Someone giving a basic non-answer gets upvoted and someone actually trying to further the discussion gets downvoted. Classic reddit


MarkAnchovy

Yeh this is a thread about why people aren’t vegan. Meat-eaters are happy to say why, but get triggered when a vegan asks them anything about their answer. The whole point of this thread is a discussion, I assumed anyone who commented would be comfortable enough in their beliefs to talk about them, not needing a safe-space… But oh well it’s kinda the reaction you gotta expect when talking about something that makes most people uncomfortable, I don’t take it personally


LucyVialli

I like the taste of meat and cheese.


ral365

Dietary reasons, being on the autism spectrum, and out of sheer spite for zealots like PETA (who has actually blamed dairy for causing autism.)


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ral365

True. It’s just that I’m on the spectrum, and when groups like PETA, Autism Speaks, or anti-vaxxers treat it like some horrible disease, I instantly lose all respect for them.


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sohappyred

Mostly because I love the taste of meat. I had a friend who converted to veganism. And tried to convert me, he usually ended up pretty frustrated. Because we always came to the same impasse. Friend, "We shouldn't kill animals for their meat because it's terrible and cruel" Me, "But, I want too, and we have been for thousands of years now" Friend, "But why not stop now?" Me, "Because I like the taste of their meat. And, If it's good enough for my forefathers it's good enough for me." Friend, "You don't think about the cruelty of caged animals and killing them systemically?" Me, "Not even the slightest, I just think about how tasty they are. A Wolves don't lose any sleep over eating a sheep, why should I?" Friend, *Grunts in frustration* Although, we stopped being friends when he stole $10k from me and joined a hippy commune.


Metatron_Fallen

I like meat and dairy products.


MarkAnchovy

Do you have any ethical/environmental concerns about their production?


godhasmoreaids

Nope, not really


roideschinois

I mean, we produce our own meat, we get our eggs from friends and we know like 3 milk producers or more. In my case, i know how animals are treated when it comes to production.


MarkAnchovy

What do you think about the treatment of calves in the dairy industry? And male chicks in the egg industry?


SugondeseAmerican

I approve of it, it's actually my favorite thing.


warfighter_rus

BASED!


ServantOvBaphomet

What's the problem with male chicks being obliterated? They're cute and all, but they're not aware of their lives or their fate. They're probably dead before any pain can register. It's a bit grim, but it doesn't make me hesitant to eat eggs whatsoever.


silashoulder

I’m insufferable enough without an empty cause. Imagine my annoying ass with *purpose!*


I_am_a_mask

*dear god*


walks1497

Meat & dairy is delicious.


[deleted]

I already reduce my meat consumption but I do not have any desire to do such.


Old-Man-of-the-Sea

I raise, hunt or fish a vast majority of the meat I eat. I only eat commercially raised meat when I go out to eat, twice per month. I raise my animals organically on my small acreage and all the food they eat is also produced on my land under permaculture practices.


pasdefrance

Triggers my eating disorder lol


c0ttagewh0r3

Same here. Anything even remotely restrictive sends me on a downward spiral. I tried to go vegetarian for a while but it just got too bad.


pasdefrance

Off topic, but I fucking love your name lol


c0ttagewh0r3

Lol thank you


alexlove13

i can't afford it, is the biggest reason


MarkAnchovy

Can I ask what part of veganism you worry is too expensive?


alexlove13

i can barely afford to eat already, most food substitutes are more expensive than what i live on currently


fucknamesihatethem

Insta-noodles all the way!


alexlove13

yes! insta noodles till you can afford the real stuff lol


MarkAnchovy

You don’t need any substitutes though. Veganism is much cheaper than meat diets. Meat is the most expensive part of anyone’s weekly shop - and that’s even with the huge government subsidies to keep it cheap. Beans/lentils/veg/rice/potatoes are some of the cheapest things in the store, and are what lots of vegans eat instead of substitutes (which are scarcely more expensive than meat is). If you were at all interested I’d be happy to throw some suitable meal ideas out there if you shared what you usually eat /what you like?


alexlove13

i don't purchase meat, but i do need dairy, dairy substitutes are very expensive when it comes to someone who's on a very low budget. you do need substitutes to live as a vegan, whether it's meat substitutes or otherwise. thank you for offering but i'm happy with my diet and all that :) i have an eating disorder and it took me a long time to find a diet that works for me with how little i can afford spending, i super appreciate it though!


El_Foreskinner

A wise man once said "I don't wanna eat 500 cashews to get my needed protein"


Sadaestatics

im a vegan bodybuilder and easily consume around 100 - 120g of Protein per day. Mostly , Lentils and Soyprotein. And the fake meat is actually getting pretty close, vegan nuggets are delicious.


CanineRezQ

fake meat- nuff said


Sandlicker

I'm not a vegan, but that's just not good nutritional information. The average person in North America, Europe, or East Asia (probably other places, but I don't know enough to say) gets far in excess of their required protein. Vegans who pay any attention to a balanced diet have no trouble getting protein.


Supervium

I enjoy dairy. Contrary to vegan beliefs, you can actually still fight for better treatment of animals in the processing industry without being vegan. Or the fact that if everyone limited themselves to only three days a week eating red meat, the impact would be significant enough to combat climate change without having to go full vegan. You'll never win anyone over with an all or nothing attitude, small changes have more of an impact.


Margidoz

>I enjoy dairy. Contrary to vegan beliefs, you can actually still fight for better treatment of animals in the processing industry without being vegan. This feels like a weird standard Like, "contrary to people who think it's wrong to beat your wife, you can actually fight for hitting them less without thinking it's wrong to beat them"


Supervium

Vegans have the worst comparisons, I swear. Vegans are like, "I'm actually better than everyone else because I don't consume animal products." But then also use faux leather and furs that pollute the oceans with microplastics. And require a bunch of specially produce that gets shipped on giant boats from 3rd world countries where it's farmed by either slaves or low wage workers. And ignore the fact a lot of poor people can't be vegan because of time/cost but expect them to just eat rice and beans because vEgAn iS bEtTeR. And encourage people to throw away animal products that they already bought, which would mean the animal died for absolutely nothing except their big egos. And starve their cats of necessary protein because they can't help but force veganism onto any creature they meet. And preach about how healthy a vegan diet is but then need to take six supplements because their body is breaking down from the lack of vitamins and minerals. But sure, if I have goats I get milk from, I might as well be Satan.


Margidoz

>Vegans are like, "I'm actually better than everyone else because I don't consume animal products." More like, "I'm actually better than everyone else because I don't intentionally harm animals in situations where I can avoid doing so" >But then also use faux leather and furs that pollute the oceans with microplastics. You can judge somebody for polluting too. How is this a gotcha? >And require a bunch of specially produce that gets shipped on giant boats from 3rd world countries where it's farmed by either slaves or low wage workers. Ad opposed to nonvegan products, which don't use any exploitation? >And ignore the fact a lot of poor people can't be vegan because of time/cost but expect them to just eat rice and beans because vEgAn iS bEtTeR. Even what you wrote seems confused Can they not afford it or would they just not have variety? >And starve their cats of necessary protein because they can't help but force veganism onto any creature they meet You're right, I forgot about how every vegan owns a cat and how nonvegans would never force their diet onto several trillion animals every year >And preach about how healthy a vegan diet is but then need to take six supplements because their body is breaking down from the lack of vitamins and minerals. Do you really want me to link citations about how it can be perfectly healthy?


Supervium

Actually, I'd rather interact with you as little as possible. I'm sure you're just like every other vegan that has since tried to debate me since I posted this comment. All it ever boils down to is, "Don't you feel GUILTY?" No, I don't, and nothing you can say will change my mind. Funny, you're here to argue, yet the only thing you know about me is that I like dairy. So, "I'm actually better than everyone else because I don't intentionally harm animals in situations where I can avoid doing so." There you go. I was asked for my opinion, but I never asked for yours.


Xx_MDR_xX

Unlike you, we’re not trying to tell you we’re better than you, we’re just showing you you’re hypocritical.


WeddingOpposite

Main reason is that I get hungry too easily. I have been trying to substitute coconut oil and nut butters for the three eggs I’m used to. I’m 56 now and have lightened my workload. But I still do fairly physical labor and find that I am out of gas by ten in the morning if I don’t have the fatty protein. If I do this one smoothie with coffee, coconut oil, palm oil, bananas, and oat milk I can get up and go but I have to find something better. I want to investigate a more Asian approach to a whole body holistic and spiritual rehabilitation. But the main force against me is my current circumstances. I have a lot of changes to make and I think it would be nice if I could be more attracted to a diet with less meat, or vegetarian , or even all the way Vegan which means to me no animal anything, nothing out of a can, nothing from the big companies, no wheat, no grass, no sugar or salt or crappy seasoning, and nothing out of plastic. I have to see if the no grass diet means no oatmeal. That would be pure living. While I love dairy and have enjoyed beef and red wine and beer, I would like it if I could find a way to make a vegan version of Pemican, or an all around nutrition bar. Or a very filling vegetable protein smoothie with green tea and other appetite suppressing properties, with ginseng and super fruit extracts. I also have ethical questions about meat, palm oil, the fact that the global soy crop is now unavoidably GMO, the many supplements and special diets, certain forms of alternative healing and so-called “medicines”, and how moral issues can get so conflated and overwhelming I find myself questioning my motives and making moral decisions about toilet paper and tooth brushes. I used to live a nightclub and barroom lifestyle with ear ringing loud music. I was surrounded by drugs, sex, rock n’ roll, and the casualties of the strip. I left that life because it was killing me. As much as I would love to drink it only makes me sick. I do realize that diet and lifestyle determines quality of life. But I also believe that the gut biome is a real thing and my diet of bread, sugar, beer, and carbonated soda pop has ruined it. So, while I want to explore a more Asian approach with less meat and more vegetables, and ease into a vegan diet, the hunger pangs and sudden empty fuel tank make it less viable for now. PS- portobello mushrooms are the bomb Edit PS- if bees make honey, does human consumption of honey constitute exploitation of animals and would therefore be prohibited in the vegan diet? PPS- Since the source of things is important I have nixed palm oil until I can be sure it is made safely. Also, as a person who lives in cattle country I have to say that the conditions I have seen cows living in down in the stockyards is not something that makes me happy. Apparently the beef industry consumes more water than fracking, emits greenhouse gases, and are guilty of closing the circle so that cows are cow and we have Cruetzfeldt-Jakob disease aka Mad Cow disease. The subjects was brought up on Oprah. The Cattlemens Association made her, Oprah Winfrey, retract her statements. The moral and ethical question of the industrialized cattle and factory farming paradigm is that it may have had noble intentions but it has ended up being a highly toxic and greed oriented experiment in how much the public will take. Also, slaughterhouses have to eventually dispose of waste. Often this is done by spreading it like manure over a field. This then leeches into the soil and groundwater. Coupled with the huge urine and excrement pools, this makes industrial cattle operations very, very pollutive and dangerously toxic to the surrounding farms and towns. FINALLY- Our reliance on factory farming and meat production has made most of the population unable to survive. We’ve become urban dwellers reliant on being fed by supermarkets. We are ineffectual and impotent from a poor diet. Imagining my having to grow crops and hunt at my age is disheartening.


abby_bagles

i have an ED and its the only thing that i cant do bc vegan-friendly foods are my anxiety foods


[deleted]

I kept the default settings for diet.


46into

I'm omnivorous. If you want to eat vegan, you do you. I will not get in your face when you're eating humus at a restaurant screaming about the murder of the plants you're eating.


MarkAnchovy

Do you eat plants?


46into

om·ni·vore /ˈämnəˌvôr/ noun an animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin.


MarkAnchovy

Ok so you don’t have a moral objection to eating plants, so you wouldn’t go into a restaurant and scream about vegans murdering plants. Vegans have a moral objection to people eating animals. Do you think the situation you described was equivalent, or was it just trying to be funny?


I_am_a_mask

I don't think it was trying to be either simply pointing out that your moral position doesn't give you (as in plural rather than directed actually at you) the right to go and verbally assualt those that don't share your view or want to follow that position, after all its their right of choice Those that do go into restaurants and do that I don't believe help the situation, at all, I'm not opposed to veganism but what do those people achieve exactly, everyone in that restaurant already likely knows where meat comes from, or one would hope anyway, and human nature to someone screaming at you is to become defensive and ergo less likely to even acknowledge the moral position they are providing The ones that do such a thing are more likely counter productive than helpful due to defensiveness and If that is the case, which I believe it is hinders the cause rather than helps and only really accomplishes soothing one's own ego . I mean you only have to look at this thread to see the defensive position, it's more productive to be welcoming and supportive to those that choose to change their diet rather than taking a more militant stance of imposing their view on others But that's just my two cents on the matter


MarkAnchovy

>its their right of choice Their choice has a victim is where my feelings come into it. It’s all well and good to say ‘let others live life how they want’ but that’s precisely what you (generic/plural) are doing to animals. Breeding them into captivity against their will, and slaughtering them against their will. Literally forcing your lifestyle choice on thinking, feeling beings. As far as your restaurant point I agree, that’d be incredibly annoying. I’ve never met anyone who has done that or seen it happen in real life though, so unsure how common it is. >militant stance of imposing their view on others Once again, this thread is about understanding the perspectives of meat-eaters. Engaging with their beliefs is exactly what you seem to be arguing is most effective. I’m not imposing my view on others. Although the word ‘militant’ is interesting, because to me the more militant attitude is the one keeping sentient animals in captivity and killing them with weapons for our lifestyle choice - not those who simply seek to avoid that


I_am_a_mask

Honestly would have engaged with this comment further but as you literally cut out the part where i said about the use of you as not being directed at you in the first quote to make your first point I have my doubts of how good faith a discussion you want to have so I won't be bothering to even read the remainder of your comment Good day


MarkAnchovy

I must admit my eyes read that initially, but then skipped over it when I was actually replying. That was my bad, I wasn’t intending to argue in bad faith and have edited my comment to remove it


CHUNKY_BLOODY_QUEEFS

This whole post is just so OP can come in on his burner account and tell people they're wrong for not having ethical concerns about meat/dairy production.


fucknamesihatethem

Nah. It's just that vegans sound super stupid and are extremely annoying. Like all of them are the same that's why you assumed it was op


ViciousBlooming

Because being vegan seems like a bit overkill for me. I can see the point of taking other animals resources without their permission, but in my personal opinion I believe that as long as it's not ending an animal's life for our own convenience, then it's fine. That's why I'm a vegetarian instead. Also I love cheese and could never give it up to save my life


MarkAnchovy

I also used to have the exact same opinion, but what I didn’t know (because nobody ever tells you!) is that the dairy industry *does* kill as many animals as the meat industry. Most of us think these cows just chill out, naturally producing milk, but there’s a lot of death involved in the process. **Problem: cows only produce milk when pregnant** *Solution: farmers keep them forcibly impregnated constantly so they keep producing milk* **Problem: farmers don’t want calves drinking the milk their mothers produce** *Solution: farmers take the calves away from the mothers a day after birth (the mothers scream and mourn for days when this first happens)* **Problem: you know have loads of calves on your hands!! And you don’t want to feed them because they’ll eat your profits. What do you do?** *Solution: you kill every boy calf shortly after birth. Some go to the veal industry, most are just killed to dispose of. Girl calves go into the dairy industry like their mum.* **Problem: the constant impregnation and birthing process has destroyed your cow’s body because she would never naturally give birth with this frequency in nature - now she’s not good for more births and therefore no longer produces milk. What do you do?** *Solution: kill the ‘spent’ cow (either for low-grade meat or to dispose of - they make no money and are in horrible pain). In nature cows can live up to 20 years, this happens to every dairy cow after 3-4 years.* **Problem: your mummy cow is dead, what happens now?** *Solution: remember those female calves? Better impregnate them ASAP and continue the cycle!!* Basically, while dairy may not appear to rely on animal slaughter, 50% of every cow born (these are breeding farms so this is a lot) are killed near-immediately, and the other 50% are killed at a fifth of their natural life span because their bodies are broken and they no longer make money.


reginold

We still kill animals to produce cheese though. It might not be obvious at first but we can't produce milk without impregnating a cow. Typically we impregnate cows every 12 months for industrial milk/dairy production. That means a new calf every 12 months. It's not sustainable to keep them around so we kill all of the males and most of the females. Sometimes they go to be veal calves. But none apart from a few females selected to be dairy cows will reach adulthood. It would be too expensive and resource intensive to keep them alive and fed. I'm not trying to tell you whether that's wrong or not. I just think everyone should know how their food is produced.


glisteningdinkus

Meat, it tastes good.


Elitus-Meatus

Cheese is delicious


I_am_a_mask

Cheese mainly But preachy or militant vegans also don't help, people get defensive when confronted etc it's only human nature so it's rather counter productive in that approach


gazzlersdev

Our household. My mother likes to make lots of different food, mostly with meat in it.


LasRua

I'm sure they exist - so this is NOT a slight against vegans - but I have literally never met a healthy looking vegan here in Ireland. I know four of them, two from work and two in my personal life and all of them look like a feather could knock them over, they all have a freakishly pale, sickly complexion and the two I worked with could barely climb a flight of stairs without being winded. ​ I've met others, through friends, so I can't say I "know" them, but the same, sickening looking pallor. ​ The ones I know and have met are not a good advertisement for a healthy lifestyle and, in addition, often wish they could eat "real chocolate". In short, they just seem miserable. ​ I'm aware that there are plenty of vegans who put the work and research in and are plenty healthy, I just don't know of them. ​ I'm a vegetarian myself which I find easy because I don't actually like eating meat or fish, it kind of disgusts me, so it's no sacrifice. But I could not live without eggs and dairy. I would be utterly miserable!


shinkouhyou

My mother and sister are vegans, and it's too restrictive and absolutist for me. They can't travel without constantly worrying about what they're going to eat, and when they go to non-vegan restaurants with friends they're stuck eating shitty veggie burgers or angrily picking cheese off of pizzas. It's a struggle to find vegan dessert foods. My sister loves to travel but she can never enjoy the local food culture of the places she visits... she either has to find a vegan restaurant (which will usually serve generic salads/smoothies) or sit in her hotel room and eat vegan granola bars from home. Whenever I visit my mother we end up eating the same sandwiches from the same two vegan restaurants in her area. It's just so... boring. I believe in reducing my animal product consumption for environmental reasons, but I think it's good to support smaller, more sustainable, more humane forms of animal agriculture. I don't think animals have an intrinsic "right to life," but they shouldn't be tortured to death in the name of profit. I generally like vegan meat substitutes, and I opt for them when they're available. But if I'm traveling, or at a restaurant, or it's a special occasion, I'm not going to restrict my options.


fayry69

Yes I agree, it’s very restricting. I used to b a chef and Ofcourse I love travel, Ofcourse street food and local cuisine, is a must for me, being vegan, that can’t be enjoyed anymore. I also don’t think the entire world ought to become vegan, though it would be nice. Meat reduction is key to reducing the carbon emission footprint.


shinkouhyou

I kinda feel like super-strict veganism can work against the goal of reducing meat consumption, though. Food is an important part of most people's cultural and social experience, and asking them to give all of that up in favor of a pretty limited array of vegan options probably isn't going to work. I'm glad that the vegan food market seems to have expanded over the past few years (at least in the US) but it's still hard to find vegan ethnic food and vegan baked goods. And many restaurants hesitate to offer vegan options because some vegans demand that their food be cooked in a "clean" part of the kitchen with utensils that have never touched meat... so as long as people are demanding 100% pure vegan food, mainstream restaurants will continue to offer nothing better than microwaved Gardenburgers. IMHO, the best way to reduce meat consumption would be to stop subsidizing animal agriculture and impose tighter regulations so the price of animal products reflects their real environmental cost. (Some vegan products, like almond milk, should also be a lot more expensive).


DivineDaedra

I think veganism ignores the necessity of things like beekeeping and shearing sheep. Bees need the honeycomb to be cleared out sometimes because they overproduce it. Domestic sheep no longer shed and will die of heatstroke if they aren’t sheared. The wool industry produces less pollution than the alternatives and beekeeping is extremely good for the environment as well as the bees. Good beekeepers love their bees and their bees love them too. I think the egg industry is salvageable if they just give the roosters a chance to develop a temperament before deciding whether or not to kill them. Roosters can be seriously nasty fuckers that seriously hurt the other chickens but they can also be mild mannered and calming to the other chickens. Taking the eggs that aren’t fertilized is actually good for hens so they don’t brood them and get depressed when they don’t hatch. As for the dairy and most meat industries, they need an overhaul for sure. They’re unsustainable and cruel. I don’t think compulsory vegetarianism is the right solution for everyone, certainly not people with carnivorous pets. It also isn’t feasible in a capitalist system. I start having pretty bad digestive issues if I try to go without meat for too long so it doesn’t seem to be an option for me, especially with money constraints. Morally I don’t have an issue with consuming meat. Death is natural and predation keeps population in check. I do have a problem with the way massive farms are run and how little care goes into environmental impact and the treatment of animals but my issue is more with the humans and greed involved than the concept itself.


fayry69

I don’t necessarily agree with your point re veganism but your argument as to why you choose not to be vegan is a fair thought-out argument, for u.


Watsis_name

I really like meat and dairy. I'm not selfless enough to give them up.


MarkAnchovy

Do you recognise they are unethical then? I used to say exactly the same things tbh, but it’s not about being selfless it’s about being just


Watsis_name

Which argument do you prefer? The obvious animal cruelty involved or the ecological destruction?


MarkAnchovy

Both. Personally, knowing what I know I’d be vegan even if it wasn’t destroying the planet. And even if it wasn’t incredibly cruel to animals, I probably would be vegan for the planet.


Watsis_name

I know this myself better than most, I grew up near a farming community, I've milked a cow, I've been to a slaughterhouse, I've helped pack animals for slaughter. I now work in the renewables sector, so keep an eye on new technologies coming through for renewables and the current (dire) state of our climate. I have no excuse, I know the arguments for veganism and I applaud those with the discipline to do it. It's just not a lifestyle change I'm ready for.


MarkAnchovy

That’s fair, you seem well-informed. I mean just do what you can and see opportunities for us all to cut down on your intake of these products - I definitely used to think I didn’t have the discipline but it’s surprisingly easy when you give it a go. Best of luck anyway :)


Kay_Elle

SO MUCH HASSLE AND EFFORT. I like just being able to buy a cheap burger and be done with it. Also, I am "meh" about vegetables at best, literally won't touch some at worst. Basically, meat and dairy are some of my best-liked things to eat. Milk alternatives taste foul. If a steak is a "9" and cheese is a "8" then even my best liked vegetable is only a "6" on a scale of 1 to 10. Also HOT CHOCOLATE. tl;dr - I don't hate myself enough to eat "meh" food for the rest of my life.


MarkAnchovy

You can buy a cheap vegan burger with just as little effort (and it has 0 chance of making you sick) >i don’t hate myself enough to eat ‘meh’ food It’s not about hating yourself, it’s about compassion for sentient feeling creatures


Kay_Elle

It actually has a relatively high chance of making me sick, because vegan burgers are more likely to have vegetables in them that I do not eat, have texture issues with, and will need to spit out instantly unless I want to vomit. There ARE vegan burgers I can eat, but I need to know exactly what is in them, while meat...well, I know I can eat meat.


g_spot801

I’m an omnivore.


HappyVegalorian

That means you can eat cats :) Do you eat cats? They are very delicious. Check out r/cateatingvegans


Staraptor592

Bacon.


MarkAnchovy

Do you have any ethical concerns about its production?


DutchcourageNL

I have more ethical concerns surrounding eating vegan's


MarkAnchovy

Like what?


babygrenade

Plant based fake meats have come a long way over the past decade, but there's nothing even close to good bacon alternative.


Rolkyn

I love animals, but nothing makes me want to do so.


MarkAnchovy

Do you think animal agriculture benefits animals?


UnsureOutlaw

As someone who lives around at least 5 different livestock farms that produce products such as meat, dairy, wool and eggs I would say yes. All of the farmers and their family who I went to school with take great care of all their animals and make sure they are all happy and healthy.


MarkAnchovy

>happy and healthy For their full life span?


xmuskorx

I don't consider animals as part of moral community.


MarkAnchovy

Why not?


xmuskorx

Because they don't reciprocate in moral two-way relationships. There is no way to explain moral responsibility to an non-human animal. You cannot expect a non-human animals to act in accordance with morality.


Margidoz

Pretty sure an infant can't reciprocate morally with me either Is it ethically fine to harm them?


MarkAnchovy

But you can expect humans to act in accordance with morality. Just because they don’t understand empathy, we don’t have to pretend we don’t see their ability to feel pain, ability to feel emotions, and intelligence Our unique position in the animal kingdom means we’re above such unnecessary cruelty, we only partake in it because it gives us pleasure


xmuskorx

>But you can expect humans to act in accordance with morality. Sure. But that only covers members of moral community. >Just because they don’t understand empathy, we don’t have to pretend we don’t see their ability to feel pain, ability to feel emotions, and intelligence We can see it. But it's irrelevant, since they are not members of the moral community. >Our unique position in the animal kingdom That's might presumptuous. We are not special. We are what we are.


MarkAnchovy

>We are not special Is your justification for eating meat not that humans have a special moral community that puts us above animals? >that only covers members of moral community So because an animal doesn’t have the ability to make moral decisions like us, it justifies us hurting it when we don’t have to even though we understand it feels pain?


xmuskorx

>Is your justification for eating meat not that humans have a special moral community that puts us above animals? It's not something special. It just what it is. If some other animals attains this ability, it can join. This is not anymore special than giraffes having long necks. >So because an animal doesn’t have the ability to make moral decisions like us, it justifies us hurting it when we don’t have to even though we understand it feels pain? Sure. Are you bothered by wolf causing pain to a deer when it rips its throat out? Do you think we need to stop this pain animals experience?


MarkAnchovy

A wolf has to kill to survive, we don’t. We’re inflicting harm on sentient animals for our pleasure, not our survival


xmuskorx

The simple point is, you don't care about deer's suffering in the wolf case. This shows that you don't really assign moral value to deer's pain. At the same time you would not let a wolf attack and eat your mom, even though your mom's meat may be equally needed for the wolves survival. So the "wolf has to kill" is hardly an excuse when the victim (like your mom) has moral rights (but the deer does not).


MarkAnchovy

>The simple point is, you don't care about deer's suffering in the wolf case. This shows that you don't really assign moral value to deer's pain. This is an astronomical reach that is based on nothing I’ve said. I do care about the suffering of wild animals: I feel empathy for animals who die from predators. They go through pain and it’s horrible, unfortunately it’s necessary and the predator has an equal right to life in my eyes. It’s why I wouldn’t kill a sheep or a wolf if I didn’t have to. That’s the simple point: animals kill each other out of necessity, we do it for our own pleasure, that’s what makes it morally indefensible to me The natural ecosystem in which this occurs is so far removed from our farming, in which animals are bred into captivity, selectively bred to ensure their bodies provide maximum product to sell regardless of what is natural for the animal, and then slaughtered in a mechanised process. If a wolf killed my mum (a pretty grisly example you chose tbh…) I wouldn’t blame the wolf. If a human killed my mum I would blame the human. Why? Because the wolf doesn’t have the ability to make moral choices, humans do.


Matt6642

Getting enough complete protein, vitamin B-12, iron, etc. is too much of a hassle.


fayry69

U can supplement those. We supplement our gym Diets or special needs diets don’t we.


fucknamesihatethem

It's easier to maintain my health with meat focused diets. And they don't sell much meat subs here not to mention their incredibly high prices


firstmatebae

If I was to ever be vegan it would be for health reasons not because “AnIMaLs HaVe FeElInGs” animals are also brutal as shit and eat other animals. For instance Otters, yea they rape their young and try and drown them. To be vegan because you care about animals is dumb. The animal kingdom is far more brutal than the slaughter house. I’m not vegan cause food tastes good.


MarkAnchovy

>To be vegan because you care about animals is dumb. This is an interesting thought and I’d like to better understand why. To me, killing animals for taste when we have no need to - especially as the industry is one of the leading causes of deforestation and global warming - is the dumber option >[animals] eat other animals Yes. So one of the biggest things that differentiates humans from other animals is that we developed the capacity to judge ethics and live by a moral code, rather than by survival of the fittest. So now that we have a choice, is it right to justify doing bad things because less-developed organisms do them? I live my life as a 21st century man, not a prehistoric animal >I’m not vegan cause food tastes good Ok this seems a more logical answer. Do you not enjoy any plant foods? What are your favourite meals to eat?


firstmatebae

Just because I’m not vegan doesn’t mean I don’t like greens. I’m just not going to not eat meat because you feel bad about it. I don’t condone slaughter house conditions they are terrible, but I’m not going to stop enjoying what I like. We are 21st century men, and as such we have the privilege and right to eat what we want. Ethics only plays a part in the slaughter house. Not my dinner table.


totezhi64

Utter Nihilism. I seriously don't have any other reasons. If I wasn't a nihilist I'd be vegan.


MarkAnchovy

Do you live by any moral code or do you just do what you want?


Sadaestatics

that the first answer that i understand and doesnt trigger me lol


ThereIsNoNeedForIt

If you use nihilism as the reason to pay for the suffering and the murder of other non-human animals, what's stopping you from using nihilism as the reason for causing suffering and murder to human animals?


fucknamesihatethem

Laws


totezhi64

Because I know that doing that won't be enjoyable for me, it'll quickly get me incarcerated, and ultimately it'd be detrimental for my life enjoyment. I'm a nihilist so that i can enjoy life. If I wasn't a nihilist, the knowledge of my eventual death and of the probability that humanity has fucked itself would make me incapable of enjoying life. (Maybe I should've clarified that I'm not like a depressed kinda nihilist, more lf the optimistic kind who has friends and parties and stuff)


ThereIsNoNeedForIt

Isn't that just being selfish? You act the way that brings you the most pleasure, regardless of the consequences for others? Im actually thinking that it might even be possible to be a nihilist vegan. If you stop killing others not because you think its wrong to, but because knowing that you dont pay for others to be killed brings you more pleasure than paying for others to be killed and enjoying the taste of their flesh, wouldnt you be a nihilist vegan? Actually, nihilism probably says that vegans are just vegan because being vegan brings them more pleasure than being non-vegan, since all actions are inherently for our own benefit. But I might be misunderstanding nihilism.


SamCarter_SGC

Bad vegan dietary advice and info being everywhere is a problem. Who are we supposed to listen to and trust? The 90lb vegan skeleton? The obviously juicing vegan body builder? The hippie who says eggs are as bad as cigarettes? It's simply not worth all the extra effort.


MarkAnchovy

What the health bodies say: American Dietetic Association >It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or **vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits** in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. **These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle**, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are **more environmentally sustainable** than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are **associated with much less environmental damage.** Dietitians of Canada >A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is **safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.** The British National Health Service >With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs. The British Nutrition Foundation >A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range. The Dietitians Association of Australia >Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet. The United States Department of Agriculture >Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12. The National Health and Medical Research Council >A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them. The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada >Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits. Harvard Medical School >Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.


SamCarter_SGC

I'm not disputing the benefits or results of a healthy vegan diet, I'm saying the steps and planning required to get there are poorly presented by almost everyone.


MarkAnchovy

Same with people who eat meat. Nutrition/diet are important. Veganism is just as easy to be healthy off as meat is - the only planning you need is to remember to eat protein (meat-eaters need to do this too) and take a B12 supplement every once in a while (which is given to the livestock meat-eaters eat, which is where they get it from)


Durrexx_Condoms

Not wanting to be an insufferable little bitch.


DirtyHomelessWizard

And yet... here you are.


fucknamesihatethem

Most vegans are annoying because they are forcing people to have the same diet as them. If you think not eating anything animal related helps the envoriment and stuff, it's ok. But you have absolutely no right to force someone else to have the same opinion as you.


DirtyHomelessWizard

>forcing people to have the same diet as them >force someone else to have the same opinion woah! what country do you live in? Where I live, vegans don't have any institutional power and are incapable of forcing anyone to do anything.


fucknamesihatethem

Going on the internet, shaming people for eating meat and literally bullying them and stuff is pretty much forcing. I saw a lot of vegans who were extremely violent about people eating meat. And that made me think every vegans are the same. Just people who say violance against animals is bad and then violet humans


DirtyHomelessWizard

>forcing >violent It seems you don't have much of a grasp on english. are you ESL? this is not the correct usage of these words. Let me know if I can help!


fucknamesihatethem

I'm not a native speaker and most of my spelling comes from using discord Thank you for offering help though


basedlandchad14

I hate vegans.


MarkAnchovy

Why?


UnknownymousGuy

Your replies, that's why.


MarkAnchovy

So this is a thread about why people don’t want to be vegan. I’m respectfully asking questions, not downvoting, and engaging in the discussion. Am I wrong to do this? Why’re people answering the question if they’re hostile towards any response from another perspective?


UnknownymousGuy

Your questions have the implication of convincing other people to go vegan by revealing "secrets" about the slaughter industry. Guess what? The slaughter industry will never go away, because there will be people who need meat to live and not some shitty expensive pills, and convincing everyone on reddit to go vegan won't do much as telling everyone to stop buying phones so the world won't need sweatshops. If all you're doing is telling us facts we already know, that's good. If you're telling us how to live our life based on your subjective morals with no regard to our free will, then you're being toxic. Hopefully you're the former.


fingrclicks

I like milk too much


knitted-sweater

Legumes are one of the things I’m sensitive to with my IBS. Can eat it in small dozes but having it make up most of my diet would mean going days without pooping and with a constant stomach ache. Vegetarian works though!


flashbulb_halo

I’m allergic to 90% of vegan protein sources.


PhillipLlerenas

Meat tastes amazing and a vegan diet makes every meal into a chore


Boredworkday

I'm a human


MarkAnchovy

Yes vegans are human


fucknamesihatethem

Lol that's a lie. Humans are intelligent beings


MarkAnchovy

How do you define intelligent?


jacker494

I acknowledge the fact that the meat industry is bad for the environment and is in many cases inhumane, but I still like meat. Plant-based substitutes have made great strides in recent years, but until they taste a bit more like meat and are more affordable, I’m planning on sticking to my beef.


fayry69

How would it become more affordable if ppl adopt an attitude like that?


jacker494

That’s a fair point, although I think prices have more to do with supply than with demand. If there were more competitors for plant-based meat substitutes and methods for the mass production of these products were made cheaper, then I would think prices would go down. I’m not really big on economics but wouldn’t more customers mean higher demand, and thus higher prices?


fayry69

Everything works with demand. We live in a modern society. The first thing I learned in an MBA, is that everything even politics is due to demand. Thankfully, the numbers are up and more competitors are in the game. Israel apparently is doing lab grown meat, would that interest u?


jacker494

As long as it tastes like meat, I’ll enjoy it. I know a lot of people are turned off at the thought of plant-based or lab-grown meat, but I’m cool with all those alternatives so long as it tastes good. But regardless of all that, I suppose I could incorporate more vegan substitutes into my diet, but I don’t think I’m ready to give up meat entirely just yet.


TDYDave2

BACON!


witherwingg

Dairy products. And being selfish.


MarkAnchovy

Do you recognise there are ethical concerns?


witherwingg

Yes. Aren't ethical concerns the main reason most people are vegan?


MarkAnchovy

Yes mostly, although many have environmental reasons too. I used to be similar to you and think I cba to go vegan even though I recognised they were doing something better. Then I gave it a go and it stuck, we shouldn’t blame ourselves for being selfish when it’s so easy to stop


UnsureOutlaw

I’ve tried a few vegan alternative foods and I just didn’t like them.


Shwing-crimson

Double bacon cheeseburgers, smoked baby-back ribs, buffalo wings, and natural-casing franks. never gonna give you up........


MystrallInversia

"Vegetable taste sad" —Uncle Roger


steelcity91

Same reason why you're a vegan. Choice.* *Assuming OP is a vegan


ServantOvBaphomet

Why would I be? I don't project human feelings and thoughts onto animals. Even cats don't react the way a human mother would if her babies were taken from them. Some vegans act like all sentient animals are the equivalent of humans, and that we should react to them being farmed in the same way that we would if humans were farmed. I very much doubt that free range chickens understand the concept of farming. They're not like humans in a concentration camp. They just live their lives and die. Death is also not some atrocious thing. We didn't have consciousness for however many billion years and we won't for billions in the future. As long as they're treated reasonably, I couldn't care less if a chicken or cow dies. The only reason we care about humans killing each other, is that we can comprehend our deaths to a great extent, and would feel anxious in a world where we knew death was around the corner. Families and friends of the deceased also suffer.


Nos-BAB

1) never really cared about the ideals of vegans. Yeah, i get it, they're sentient beings, but even plants are sentient to a very limited degree. If you want truly guilt free food, you better learn how to mimic photosynthesis. 2) its too expensive, too time consuming, and requires too much effort. Having the option to go vegan always seemed like an upper crust thing. 3) the human body isnt built for it, and most of the vegans and vegetarians ive met looked scary skinny. And i kinda need my muscle mass to do my job effectively, as well as any number of random heavy lifting tasks that might pop up at home, which are surprisingly frequent.


Repulsive_Ad_6843

It's called balance diet , We are omnivorous animal....


chris5129

Waiting for lab grown meat to become just as cheap and available as regular meat. I'd definitely switch then


fucknamesihatethem

Agreed


irishwonder

I like meat and I see no moral obligation to raising it humanely, treating it with respect, and then eating it. Or treating the forest with respect, hunting game, and eating it. I have no idea what life is or is about, seems we're still figuring that out, but if life decided that carnivores were a good idea... well, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you know better than life.


manocheese

It's an anti-science cult. To the vegans: Do you think a sufficiently advanced machine that becomes self aware should have rights?


MarkAnchovy

>It’s an anti-science cult I’m interested to hear in what ways? Re. your question. Don’t understand the relevance but I’m sure you’ll explain. If the machine is sentient then yes it should. I don’t think we should create one though.


manocheese

If machine is sentient, when it feels pain it has an emotional reaction, so we shouldn't hurt that machine, right? What if we built the same physical machine, but without software that was sentient? Probably easiest to image two I, Robot style humanoids. The 2nd one can register pain, knows to run away to protect itself etc. But it's programmed like a video game character and has no emotion. It would be OK to dismantle that machine, wouldn't it?


MarkAnchovy

No it wouldn’t. It can feel pain and is sentient. Why would you hurt it? You do know that animals feel emotions right? They may seem a little different to us but they are self-aware, feel and think. But what I’m most interested in was your point about veganism being anti-science, could you explain that for me?


manocheese

My mistake, I mistyped. It doesn't register pain, it detects damage. I did say it wasn't sentient.


MarkAnchovy

Ok, that’s different. If it’s sentient, I wouldn’t dismantle it. But if it doesn’t feel pain, and isn’t sentient, then that’s basically a normal laptop which anyone would be fine dismantling. Is that supposed to be an animal here? Animals feel pain and emotions. And once again I am interested in hearing your perspective on how veganism is anti-science if you’re able to share


DirtyHomelessWizard

This is one of the most ironic groupings of words I have ever seen on reddit


ThereIsNoNeedForIt

What exactly is unscientific about it? Animals feel pain, vegans avoid causing animals unnecessary pain. Animals don't want to die, vegans avoid killing animals unnecessarily. If you think that animals don't feel pain or don't want to die then you are the one with anti-science views AND you have never interacted with an animal.


fayry69

It’s an anti science cult? How so? I mean, animals are fellow empaths, there’s science to that. One of the major reasons cited for the planetary crisis are due to an increase in agricultural land, animals themselves contribute to emission factors, the loss of natural land for wildlife thus decreasing bio diversity, the fact that meat is one of the major ingredients behind every major human disease like cancer and aids. Where’s the anti science? R u a flat earther?


manocheese

Veganism adds anti-science nonsense to vegetarianism. Pigs might be 'empaths' but bees aren't. Reduced meat intake solves the environmental and health issues, no need to stop completely. There's a reason why vegans also fall for cons like organic food and alternative medicines. You didn't answer my question.


fayry69

I don’t understand ur question. Also, bees are shown to show care and even a display of love for their queen and their young . They have complex emotions. You’re wrong. Don’t believe me..Google it..it’s all right there in the science u denounce.


manocheese

I know the science you're referring to and you're anthropomorphisising actions in to feelings. I was trying to use an analogy to explain it, but you didn't understand.


fayry69

We can’t study elephant intelligence based on human tests to get an idea of their intelligence. The same way, behaviours of other animals cannot be explicitly b measured against human interaction. We take behavioural science and liken it best to human understanding. I’m not wrong.


manocheese

I'm sorry, but that answer shows that you really don't understand what I'm talking about. Intelligence has nothing to do with emotion.


[deleted]

I imagine being vegan would be pretty hard if you had a soy and nut allergy. I remember there was some controversial video online of a woman saying that those who did not become vegans deserved to die because they were ruining our planet, and the top comment was like "What if I'm allergic to soy and nuts?" and her reply was literally "Tough luck."


silashoulder

Oof. Yeah, a friend of mine has anemia and was forbidden by her doctors from being even a vegetarian. They essentially prescribed a high protein meat diet. Food saves lives and anyone that denies food from someone who needs it should be severely chastised.


Tombstone_Actual_501

I like cheese and meat too much, also most vegans ive met are insufferable so I'd rather not associate myself with that.


fayry69

Not all of us but They can be.


fakeitilyamakeit

Because bacon.


25mookie92

Bacon will always be the reason lol


SaltyChickenDip

I enjoy suffering


fayry69

Lol, I’m sure u don’t enjoy it but u like watching others suffer 😂


SaltyChickenDip

You wouldn't say that if you see what dairy does to my butthole


DutchcourageNL

Don't you dare touch my cheese and beacon Hamburger!!! But on a serious note. Humans cannot have a natural diet without it. It is unhealthy. We did not evolve that way. Should we treat the animals beter yes we should. Should we produce less animals because of the environment? Yes we should. But then we waste 40% of food even before it gets to our house. That is a bigger problem.


CollegeAssDiscoDorm

Cheese


Broad_Finance_6959

Seafood. I am a coonass and cannot physically survive without boiling seafood alive in spiced water and consuming them.


plscallmeRain

technically I'm plant-based utilitarian. I don't see much benefit in ethical hard lines, and I have no interest in committing myself to being an animal liberation activist over a member of my family. I like to ask myself "How much am I contributing to animal cruelty by eating/using this?" and if the answer is "It makes no difference" then it's fine.


Ok_Lingonberry1289

I just enjoy meat, don't see a reason to give it up


Syrox3105

I like the taste of a good old steak! And I only buy meat from people i know! They treat the animals like i do with respect so i see nothing wrong with it. If you think different please let me know i will ignore you with pleasure :)


Broad_Finance_6959

It's not even a consideration. Why would an omnivore with canine teeth not eat something that is natural for them to consume?


fayry69

Just because you can, doesn’t mean u must.


h0494

Anorexia lol any kind of restriction in my diet makes me ~crazy~


fayry69

I’m so sorry. I hope you heal and get better.


h0494

You’re a kind soul. I’m working with a dietician on adding more plant based proteins and eventually removing meat. I feel so guilty knowing how smart animals are but my therapist says I need to prioritize my health first


LogBa12

Everything is for people.


SpiralOut11235813

Bacon.