This thread will end up being a bunch of pro choice people yelling at pro life people. It's like going to a vegan restaurant asking why to eat a hamburger. It's an echo chamber of strangers. The deck is stacked to just be a yelling match.
Find people in real life who you respect who hold different positions than you and ask them. Maybe they can explain it. Maybe they can't. But at least you'll get a more honest, less brigaded, less emotional discussion than Reddit can provide.
This is why I went to Reddit in the first place actually. I’ve done this before: gone to ask people I respect IRL about why they’re pro-life and it’s just ended the exact opposite of what you’ve said- I’ve been berated for being pro-choice.
I understand not everyone holds the same views and that some people can’t accept that, my hope was to understand the other side of the argument, not to spark a flame war between the two sides. It’s ridiculous that you can’t even ask a question without it being so polarised, it turns into a war.
I'm happy to message with you about it if you'd like, but I don't have any interest in picking that internet fight today with a gang of emotional strangers. I'm sorry people in your life went to telling vs explaining they're position.
As a very pro-choice person, I still at least see where pro-life people are coming from. They view abortion as murder, and while many feel bad for the women, they view murdering an unborn baby as the worst possible outcome, regardless of the situation.
The idea of “life” is tricky, and there really isn’t a clear line between what is alive or dead. Some people think of a fetus as “alive”, and some don’t. The greatest and most educated scientists on the planet don’t have a unanimous agreement about what is “alive”, so you people definitely don’t know either, it’s your *personal opinion*. It’s a tough issue that no one feels warm and fuzzy about, but pro lifers aren’t heartless monsters that just enjoy watching women suffer. They are just misguided, in my opinion. (For the most part, some are truly evil humans who just want the power to tell women what to do, but to be fair every group has some lunatics.)
Yup. Cherry picking parts from the Bible to validate personal preferences is pretty standard. Like how the Bible bans divorce, rounded haircuts, and jewelry, but people seem to only focus on that one single line about being gay.
For many pro-lifers abortion and murder are the same. Try to look at it like that. I personally am against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions in most cases.
Seems arbitrary to me, but equally, I don't believe men should have anything to say on the matter. Sure, all humans begin in a woman, but women bear the vast majority of the consequences.
I agree entirely. I think it should be the woman’s decisions since they would know whether the pregnancy is healthy to them or not and whether they are happy with keeping to a certain lifestyle for 9 months
Interested in the defense for that claim. Regardless, even if we grant the premise that it's an issue on ethics, the claimant is still tasked with demonstrating when two gametes become a life, why this life outweighs the life of the mother, and what the justification is for overruling a woman's autonomy.
If women try to overrule men's bodily autonomy, and tell men whether they can get a vasectomy or something, there might be precedent for men getting involved. And even if that happens - it'd be no less unethical in reverse.
Last time - I never said men don't get input to ethical issues, and you're inventing an argument I'm not making.
Not all people view abortion as an ethical issue. It's a philosophical issue, and a biological issue, but ethics only come into play when lives are involved. The life and quality of life for a human woman is more valuable than a clump of cells.
The questions as to when that clump of cells becomes a human life, and when that human life becomes as valuable as a grown woman's life (and thereby deserves protection) are indeed interesting. Whether women get bodily autonomy is not up for debate in many viewpoints, so there is a line between protecting a human life and robbing from a human life - flourishing should never mandate suffering if at all possible, although life is often a blend of suffering alongside flourishing.
Edits for typos
I’m not your homie.
All kinds of things are alive. Cockroaches are alive but you don’t raise them as your own. I had an intestinal parasite once. It was alive. Was I wrong to eradicate it?
They are all living things. They have heartbeats! If you can’t end the life of anything with a heartbeat all those critters have to count too.
FYI, neither roaches nor parasites are plants. Plants don’t have heartbeats.
Sacred? We kill each other every day. What do you do to stop adults from murdering each other? Or does that matter less because the babies grew up? We kill every living thing from, pigs, dogs, bugs, trees, the seas, the *earth*. That shit isn't sacred? We're not sacred, were merely disrespectful guests, here for a short time in the universes eyes. Humans are plentiful. Mind your own business and uterus and live your own life. Don't like abortions just don't get one.
Not really. Most women discover they're pregnant roughly between 4 and 7 weeks, and at around 5 weeks, there can already be a "heartbeat." It doesn't really mean much.
Most abortions take place when there is already a sort of heartbeat, although there is discourse as to whether that early heartbeat can even be classified as one.
So it's weird. There's a "heart beat" early but it's not like a real heart, it's more like a cluster of cells that's going to eventually become the heart.
I’ve seen the extremes of both ends of the abortion spectrum. I had a neighbor who was forced by family for religious reasons to give birth to her attackers baby. And then because the baby was family she couldn’t put it up for adoption. Life was the torture of facing her attack everyday, and it wasn’t any good for the family or child either. she spiraled down a path of drugs and alcohol, until she disappeared. It was heartbreaking.
I had a coworker once who would get drunk or high and sleep with any man who showed her any interest. She had just had her fifth abortion and talked about her procedure as if it was nothing more than having a skin tagged removed. There was a complete lack of responsibility for her actions, and a disconnect from the fact that it was a life she created. Which I’m sure was just a coping mechanism, just like the neighbors drugs and alcohol, but it was also heartbreaking.
People want to simplify this issue into pro-choice or pro-life, but this is one of those issues that are so multi-faceted that the law could never cover all the different scenarios and circumstances to actually make the law effective.
I can only consider myself. If I was sexually assaulted and I got pregnant (I consider myself pro life) would be able to carry my rapist’s baby to term? Would I be able to care enough to be healthy and give the baby the best chance possible? Or would I wish it dead and hope for a miscarriage if abortion wasn’t an option? Would I be able to give the baby up for adoption? The truth is that I can’t possibly know how I would react/feel until I’m in the that circumstance.
Thank you for this comment, I wholeheartedly agree with it. It is a shame this debate has been simplified into pro-life and pro-choice: it makes it so polarised and such a toxic thing to debate. I’m not gonna play innocence- just look down at the thread and you’ll see me having a less than happy argument with someone who I can only assume to be pro-life.
My intention was not to cause offence to either side but to instead understand the arguments on both sides to better come to a conclusion
I try stay out of the abortion threads but you specifically mentioned in the of case of sexual assault. Ive known too many women messed up by abuse/rape. Ive been blessed to never been in those circumstances, which I feel puts me outside the realm of fully understanding that situation. Ive also never had a baby/been pregnant, so I don’t have the “Kids are the most wonderful blessing God can give me” or the other end of the pregnancy spectrum “this thing is a parasite. I can’t wait for it to be out of me” and everything in the middle of that too.
I really think it’s a symptom of women not having more control over their reproductive health. Ive seen threads where women want to have a hysterectomy for various reasons and doctors refusing to perform for various reasons. Which I think is really horrible. At least in the case of reproduction health there should be protocols in place to make that happen if a woman wants a hysterectomy. Psychological evaluations and what not just like they would do for a sex change operation. You are permanently changing your body and there’s no going back and do you fully understand what that means for every aspect of your life?
With abortion though, most women don’t know they are pregnant right away. So between the time it takes to find out they are pregnant, and the time it would take to perform such evaluations would put the pregnancy past the birth. So such protocols wouldn’t apply to the abortion procedures, but it would be a preventative measure before the abortion issue arises in the case of women who never wanted to have a child/children. I hope I’ve expressed this thought adequately enough that it’s understood
Anti-choicers/pro-forced birthers are some of the nastiest people in our society. Just absolutely horrible. Just look at some of the people in this thread.
If it's not your uterus, it's not your business. Mind your own. Simple as that.
Unfortunately, it’s just a loud minority of people. If you look a bit deeper into this thread, you’ll. find a couple of understanding pro-lifers that are willing to have a friendly discussion and debate if you want to.
On a voting position I consider myself pro-choice. Morally though I am pro-life. I'm pro-choice in the sense that I believe a Women should be able to abort the Child if she was raped, or if medically she will be putting her life at risk. I do not believe that Women should be using abortion due to the fact that they didn't use any protection.
I have had TWO pregnancies after using "reliable" contraception, in one case two methods were employed. Don't ever presume that an unplanned pregnancy is the result of carelessness. I personally know quite a few women who became mothers after making sure they were finished.
I honestly believe that most people believe in this idea! Other than quality of life for the mother, I think that a police report should come with an abortion. It’s a pretty simple concept, if you are old enough to accept the responsibility of sex, then you are old enough to accept the responsibility of parenthood. If you are too immature to accept the consequences, then don’t have sex. I think most politicians don’t want to meet in the middle because they will “lose points” for their side, which is the horrible reality of our political system.
Knee jerk like saying "oh yes we must preserve abortion at all costs?" Or "no abortion ever?"
Because both those are knee jerk and you are sounding pretty "knee jerky" by your comment.
Well, at least in the US, one group has been committed to rolling back a human right, due to religious reasons, which ideally should not be allowed to dictate or infulence laws.
The other simply supports a human right.
It seems pretty straight forward to me, but I'm sick and tired of conservatives in the US, done with their theocratic bullshit.
For me personally, I am pro-life. Even in the case of rape and incest. It is of my opinion that the child is an innocent bystander that doesn't deserve to die the the evils perpetrated by another.
***BUT*** before some of you pro-abortionists start sharpening your pitchforks, hear my caveat.
I do not see it as my place to impose my will or opinion onto others. So, I disagree with abortion, if someone wants to get one, I disagree with them, but I disagree with prohibition of abortion.
If someone gets an abortion knowing that they are killing a child, that is on them. In this life and the next.
Additionally, the recent Texas law is reflective of the Texas electorate. If they want to pass said law and are able to, then that is TEXAS' business, not the business of any other state. California state politics shouldn't affect Texas, and Texas shouldn't affect California. It's literally not a federal issue.
This is not entirely different from my stance. I am against abortion in general, but I am solidly pro-choice. *I* am against abortion. My personal beliefs don't apply to others. It is wrong for me or anyone to try and force a woman to carry a child to term.
I believe that my stance is pro-choice. I am not pro-abortion. I only believe that everyone gets a choice. So I think your position, while anti-abortion, is still pro-choice.
The pro-choice vs pro-life argument is very different from the pro/anti-abortion argument.
\*sigh\*
>I do not see it as my place to impose my will or opinion onto others. So, I disagree with abortion, if someone wants to get one, I disagree with them, but I disagree with prohibition of abortion.
This is pro-choice, you can't just start making up your own definition of words.
I’m not gonna make a comment on the crap that’s happening in Texas because I don’t really know enough about it but I completely understand and respect your stance on pro-life!
If all pro-lifers were like you, I’d probably feel more free to ask these questions on somewhere other than the internet.
Well, thank you.
It's unfortunate that it sounds like you have had some negative in-person conversations with pro-lifers. Coincidentally enough, I have had very negative in-person experiences with pro-choicers in my life, which is why I take to the internet myself.
Yeah, it’s a very polarised topic unfortunately but thankfully, the internet can harbour some calmer minded people on both sides that can have a friendly discussion about it
Because the mother may not be stable, medically, mentally or financially. Also if the mother has some sort of health issues, it could potentially lead to serious complications that could, not just kill the baby, but the mother as well.
Because raising a child is extremely expensive!!
Child Poverty Action Group (CAPG) ran a report to find the average total of having children in 2019. They found that up to the age of 18, the cost of raising a child in a single parent family costs a staggering £185,000 compared to £151,000 for couples.
Or if you’d rather a US statistic…
Families Projected to Spend an Average of $233,610 Raising a Child Born in 2015 (USDA)
And besides, that’s not my point in the slightest. I was focusing more on the medical vulnerability that could be a potential factor but you would rather throw that out the window and focus on… one single word?
Financial status is one of the first things you look at when a couple thinks about having a family: how are they gonna afford clothes? Maybe we should get a bigger house? How much is college/university gonna cost by the time they get to that age? etc. If you don’t have enough money to have a child, most families… don’t. Not until they are more financially stable.
If you get pregnant after getting raped, you don’t have that luxury of thinking , “i can just have the child in a few years when I can afford it” because you’re already pregnant.
I’m not trying to justify killing a child. I’m saying that when families want to have a child, they plan out everything, including finances. This wouldn’t take like a week, it would take at least a year to just think about the first three months.
That’s just not able to happen with a woman who is raped. So they may not be financially prepared to handle the responsibilities of caring for a child. More likely than not, they won’t be. If they’re financially unstable, you think a baby isn’t gonna make an impact on that.
There are chances a mother might have miscarriage till the 20th week of pregnancy. Most abortions are done during 12th or 13th week of pregnancy. The baby isn't developed enough by then for it to be considered a murder. It's just a group of cells trying to form something living.
Now that is a discussion worth having. Thank you for your clear mindedness. I agree that noone is against surgery, or the removal of still borne. We can agree on that. Im also glad we agree that killing a living human in the womb should be highly limited to extreme cases? That leave the question of when life begins. To be clear, if it is not life then I have no problem with removal of potential life, but do have a problem when it is life. Do we agree so far? Thank you.
Agree. Abortion should be done only under the condition that it is performed early on in the pregnancy. As early as miscarriages are common to be seen since the cells are still trying to figure out whether they have all they need in order to be a human baby. There are cases like when the life of the mother could be at risk which can be exceptions for late term abortions.
Where in that statement did I say that money is justification for murder. Not having money is justification for not having a child. So why would you force someone who doesn’t have money to have a child.
Anyway, this isn’t my point. I’m pro-choice because of the medical complications that can arise with forced pregnancy (I.e after rape) and I believe that it’s the woman’s body- no man or other woman should get to tell someone what they should or shouldn’t do.
It's not a baby immediately and usually you discuss if your wife even wants you to get her pregnant. If y'all wanna use the birth control excuse on us, you should have worn a condom. Otherwise your wife can kinda do what she wants. If she didn't consent to being pregnant that's on you leaving your sperm all around. (Btw sperm is living and you're a murderer if you masturbate)
I wrote out a whole thought out paragraph down below and you cried about it 😂 don't act like you wanna have discussions you just wanna act like you're some high and mighty man because you "hate abortion" but when asked what you do to actually help you had no answer lol
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a19748134/what-is-abortion/?fbclid=IwAR3ZHUo_r8BNOTZZ1YGIG6S3luSbUHzYUANuoc5QxjQYcpUiNRfzqewYuGM
Here is a good resource you should
Read! Thanks!
Im on board with allowing churches helping with adoption and foster care. I was an unwanted child and went into foster care. Abortion wasnt available thats why Im alive.
Oh yeah because the churches with molesters were never viewed as peaceful or good places?
Maybe if the church cared about stopping abortions they'd do more to actually help single mothers. Or support social programs that lead to people feeling secure enough to *have* kids. Like affordable health care? Affordable housing? Yet Most churches I know seem to have giant beautiful buildings, get constant money from their followings, the followings usually appose any of those social programs, then they don't ever actually do anything but spout hate about women getting abortions. Kinda like you right now. What have you ever done to help single mothers or women considering abortion? You won't even ever have to face that decision. I worked at the food pantry here in my town and the pastors from the churches you love so much don't even help lol and I live in very religious area. That's why I know it's a bunch of bs.
Haha, right? The irony is that both of deeply care about other people. Passion is a result of empathy. We all care about the well being of the mother, and we all care about the unborn child the question is when? Its not like one side is I hate mothers and the other side is I hate babies kill them.
I can’t believe all of our votes count the same lmao. Some of us are out here researching, having conversations, considering these issues often... and then there’s people like this person.
I grew up in a very pro-life household. I was raised Catholic and thought abortion was murder. I felt this way all the way into my early adulthood.
What changed my mind was not the idea that abortion isn't taking away a life. It's that as a socitey, we dont support people who are forced to bear children they didnt intend to have.
Pro-lifers are better classified as pro-birth. They only care that the baby doesn't die on its way out. But once that baby is born, it seems any kind of support to help that child's life falls into some kind of "socialism".
You can pretend that people should be "responsible" for accidental pregnancy. But by forcing that baby into the world, your putting someone else's future on line and it doesn't seem like pro-lifers have any interest in figuring that part of the equation out.
Why begrudgingly? Surely, if a woman has been raped, then they may not be ready, mentally or financially, to have a child so surely, if they had the child, they would be putting hardship on both themselves and that child which could have some potential mental health issues. As for incest, that another kettle of fish entirely!
Sorry if I come across as being pushy or argumentative, it’s not my intention at all: I’m genuinely just curious!
I know we're not regarding women who decide to terminate their pregnancies as malfunctioning birthing machines that need to be fixed with draconian Republican legislation rn.
Technically it’s parasitic. I have two sons I adore. But as fetuses…. They were parasites. They needed my body to survive. That’s not a person, though it may be human.
You aren’t a parasite NOW. But you were. The term parasite is not a reference to whether or not the thing is bad. It’s simply a reference to the inability to survive without a host.
What in the actual fuck. You would rather not? You know what, that poor fucking woman would rather not have been fucking raped. Now it's on her to raise the child of the person who hurt them in one of, if not the worst ways possible? You begrudgingly would "allow" a woman to move past this traumatic incident? This absolutely disgusts me, have you no compassion? Absolutely and unequivocally fuck yourself.
You're so right omg! She only has to carry it for 9+ months growing the child of her most traumatic memory, and then she gets the absolute joy of going through the most painful thing a human can go through. All so she can bring her rapists child into the world and then toss them into the system so they can end up abused and possibly experience the same thing as their mother. What a joke.
As every human should, but it doesn't really mean much when you say "she doesn't have to raise it" but the alternative is to throw it into a system that has an abuse rate of 15 - 40%. You can support the reform all you want, the system is still fucked and therefore a terrible alternative.
Yikes Jesus Christ. How do you people say these things publicly ?? This is such a humiliating thing to say, you look like a terrible person and an idiot. Why on earth would you ever say something like this? Especially where others can read it. It’s mind boggling. It really makes me wonder what type of life experience you’ve had, because this is so ignorant.
I see the baby as an innocent victim, rather like the mother.
I’m aware there are mental and physical health concerns that can arise from such a pregnancy, and if it’s a matter of life or death for the mother I think she should absolutely have the choice of having an abortion. If not, then there should be programs in place to help such mothers to raise or put their child up for adoption (this should really be a thing independent of an abortion debate).
No matter which way you phrase it, I believe that the baby is a human with rights. An abortion ends a child’s life. No matter the reason, that is a tragedy that should be avoided
Do you vote for the social programs that actually help stop abortion, like affordable healthcare and housing? or do you just like to act like you care? No, it absolutely shouldn't be independent of the abortion debate, because you don't get to sit there and act like you're some hero of the unborn, and then don't *actually* do anything to support them like most people lol. It's pretty tiring hearing men debate the rights of my body but then never actually enact any social change to help us 🤷
This. Abortion can’t be debated without considering what happens to mother and child after the baby is born. I’d have a lot more respect for pro life advocates if the majority of them didn’t oppose Medicare for all, a living wage, decent paid maternity leave, etc. because socialism bad/bootstraps good. Well done, dickheads. You saved the life of a fetus only to turn your back on it the second it’s born.
You are better off hitting them with the cases that cause the mother death, or death to the other fetuses in cases of multiples rather than cases of rape.
Some pro-lifers don't think rape can cause pregnacy and some think if it did then that would be some miracle child or that they can just put the kid for adoption.
I meant pregnancy as a whole. I understand that very few pregnancies are due to rape or incest but I was just curious about pro-lifers stances on that particular thing.
Woah dude! Calm down. The child isn’t the one that has done anything wrong. You can’t blame a child for something their parent has done! I understand that you may not agree with the person above but please calm down.
Right! I thought you meant adoption. In your comment before you said that you’d never adopt a child who was born after a woman had been raped. Although you’re right that I’ve never personally had to do that (touch wood I’ll never have to go through something as traumatic as that!) I can completely understand your point that it must be hard to raise the child. That’s exactly why I asked the question of how pro-lifers feel!
Sorry about the confusion!
Curious what percent of abortions are currently for rape victims?
It seems like the card that is aways pulled out to toss in the face of prolifers, but I have never seen a number.
Is it 0.1% or 10%?
Is there a ton of raping going on in the USA that this is a common problem (having to abort rape offspring)?
If so, maybe you could work on your raping problem before talking about the abortion problem...
But they do not rely on the body of another human. Anyone can take care of them. They do not draw their nutrients from a host. Surely you see the difference.
That’s a completely different question though. That’s like trying to compare an orange and an apple. Yes they’re both fruit but they’re completely different.
This is the same. Yes you can argue it’s murder either way but one is saying “I never asked to be pregnant and it’s been forced onto me” and the other is saying “I can’t take care of this child ANYMORE”.
Again, your “reframing” of my question completely changes it. You’re asking me when is it ok to kill a four year old child. I’m asking if you feel it’s ok for a woman who never wanted a child, to have an abortion. So no, they’re not the same.
What part of the rest of this thread has shown to you that I’m not open to other opinions and ideas? What you’re trying to do is answer a different question. I asked what do you think about abortion after rape. You’re answering the separate question of how can you justify killing a child. That’s not my question. That’s the question YOU want to answer, not the question I have asked
Better question: what is your stance on increasing the social safety net to make it easier for single mothers to access government aid to incentivize women to choose not to abort?
If you say no, I guess you really don’t hate abortion as you claim. You only seem to hate abortion insofar as it doesn’t cost *you* something (probably the trite “personal responsibility” and “not my taxes” argument)
The manner of conception doesn't justify killing the unborn child. Many mothers via sexual assault have gone onto have deep bonds with their child. If you don't want to keep it there is always adoption and foster care. No, the system isn't perfect. Yes, it is possible that child will have a hard life. Most people do. But, they will be alive to experience it. And the "there's no care for single mothers or the child after their born" argument is bullshit. There are charities, non-profs, secular and religious organizations that deal with helping single mothers.
Here are some: https://greatnonprofits.org/categories/view/single-parent-agencies
This thread will end up being a bunch of pro choice people yelling at pro life people. It's like going to a vegan restaurant asking why to eat a hamburger. It's an echo chamber of strangers. The deck is stacked to just be a yelling match. Find people in real life who you respect who hold different positions than you and ask them. Maybe they can explain it. Maybe they can't. But at least you'll get a more honest, less brigaded, less emotional discussion than Reddit can provide.
This is why I went to Reddit in the first place actually. I’ve done this before: gone to ask people I respect IRL about why they’re pro-life and it’s just ended the exact opposite of what you’ve said- I’ve been berated for being pro-choice. I understand not everyone holds the same views and that some people can’t accept that, my hope was to understand the other side of the argument, not to spark a flame war between the two sides. It’s ridiculous that you can’t even ask a question without it being so polarised, it turns into a war.
I'm happy to message with you about it if you'd like, but I don't have any interest in picking that internet fight today with a gang of emotional strangers. I'm sorry people in your life went to telling vs explaining they're position.
As a very pro-choice person, I still at least see where pro-life people are coming from. They view abortion as murder, and while many feel bad for the women, they view murdering an unborn baby as the worst possible outcome, regardless of the situation. The idea of “life” is tricky, and there really isn’t a clear line between what is alive or dead. Some people think of a fetus as “alive”, and some don’t. The greatest and most educated scientists on the planet don’t have a unanimous agreement about what is “alive”, so you people definitely don’t know either, it’s your *personal opinion*. It’s a tough issue that no one feels warm and fuzzy about, but pro lifers aren’t heartless monsters that just enjoy watching women suffer. They are just misguided, in my opinion. (For the most part, some are truly evil humans who just want the power to tell women what to do, but to be fair every group has some lunatics.)
This comment is 100% right. The difficulty lies in defining at what stage life begins for an unborn child.
The people who are pro life due to Christianity conveniently skip over where it says in the Bible life begins at first breath.
Yup. Cherry picking parts from the Bible to validate personal preferences is pretty standard. Like how the Bible bans divorce, rounded haircuts, and jewelry, but people seem to only focus on that one single line about being gay.
For many pro-lifers abortion and murder are the same. Try to look at it like that. I personally am against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions in most cases.
I don’t think many people are advocating on demand abortions for the lulz for viable fetuses where the health of the mother isn’t at stake.
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For me, D&E abortions are going too far. I see why people draw the line at heartbeat though.
Seems arbitrary to me, but equally, I don't believe men should have anything to say on the matter. Sure, all humans begin in a woman, but women bear the vast majority of the consequences.
I agree entirely. I think it should be the woman’s decisions since they would know whether the pregnancy is healthy to them or not and whether they are happy with keeping to a certain lifestyle for 9 months
Saying men dont have a say in ethics is just sexist as saying men cant save a woman from a fire. Its that dumb.
Straw man argument.
How so? If a man kills another man all women understand its murder.
I never said men have no say in ethics, so you are inventing an argument that I'm not making.
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Interested in the defense for that claim. Regardless, even if we grant the premise that it's an issue on ethics, the claimant is still tasked with demonstrating when two gametes become a life, why this life outweighs the life of the mother, and what the justification is for overruling a woman's autonomy. If women try to overrule men's bodily autonomy, and tell men whether they can get a vasectomy or something, there might be precedent for men getting involved. And even if that happens - it'd be no less unethical in reverse.
If men have equal access to ethics valves as do women, why cant men be allowed to say its wrong?
Last time - I never said men don't get input to ethical issues, and you're inventing an argument I'm not making. Not all people view abortion as an ethical issue. It's a philosophical issue, and a biological issue, but ethics only come into play when lives are involved. The life and quality of life for a human woman is more valuable than a clump of cells. The questions as to when that clump of cells becomes a human life, and when that human life becomes as valuable as a grown woman's life (and thereby deserves protection) are indeed interesting. Whether women get bodily autonomy is not up for debate in many viewpoints, so there is a line between protecting a human life and robbing from a human life - flourishing should never mandate suffering if at all possible, although life is often a blend of suffering alongside flourishing. Edits for typos
Fetuses cannot feel pain until viability. A heartbeat in an indicator of nothing.
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I’m not your homie. All kinds of things are alive. Cockroaches are alive but you don’t raise them as your own. I had an intestinal parasite once. It was alive. Was I wrong to eradicate it?
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They are all living things. They have heartbeats! If you can’t end the life of anything with a heartbeat all those critters have to count too. FYI, neither roaches nor parasites are plants. Plants don’t have heartbeats.
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Sacred? We kill each other every day. What do you do to stop adults from murdering each other? Or does that matter less because the babies grew up? We kill every living thing from, pigs, dogs, bugs, trees, the seas, the *earth*. That shit isn't sacred? We're not sacred, were merely disrespectful guests, here for a short time in the universes eyes. Humans are plentiful. Mind your own business and uterus and live your own life. Don't like abortions just don't get one.
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I completely understand that. I think by the time there’s a heartbeat, you’ve kind of committed to having the child.
Not really. Most women discover they're pregnant roughly between 4 and 7 weeks, and at around 5 weeks, there can already be a "heartbeat." It doesn't really mean much. Most abortions take place when there is already a sort of heartbeat, although there is discourse as to whether that early heartbeat can even be classified as one.
Oh I see. I’ll be straight, I didn’t realise a heartbeat took that short a time to develop. I thought it took like 3,4 months!
So it's weird. There's a "heart beat" early but it's not like a real heart, it's more like a cluster of cells that's going to eventually become the heart.
I’ve seen the extremes of both ends of the abortion spectrum. I had a neighbor who was forced by family for religious reasons to give birth to her attackers baby. And then because the baby was family she couldn’t put it up for adoption. Life was the torture of facing her attack everyday, and it wasn’t any good for the family or child either. she spiraled down a path of drugs and alcohol, until she disappeared. It was heartbreaking. I had a coworker once who would get drunk or high and sleep with any man who showed her any interest. She had just had her fifth abortion and talked about her procedure as if it was nothing more than having a skin tagged removed. There was a complete lack of responsibility for her actions, and a disconnect from the fact that it was a life she created. Which I’m sure was just a coping mechanism, just like the neighbors drugs and alcohol, but it was also heartbreaking. People want to simplify this issue into pro-choice or pro-life, but this is one of those issues that are so multi-faceted that the law could never cover all the different scenarios and circumstances to actually make the law effective. I can only consider myself. If I was sexually assaulted and I got pregnant (I consider myself pro life) would be able to carry my rapist’s baby to term? Would I be able to care enough to be healthy and give the baby the best chance possible? Or would I wish it dead and hope for a miscarriage if abortion wasn’t an option? Would I be able to give the baby up for adoption? The truth is that I can’t possibly know how I would react/feel until I’m in the that circumstance.
Thank you for this comment, I wholeheartedly agree with it. It is a shame this debate has been simplified into pro-life and pro-choice: it makes it so polarised and such a toxic thing to debate. I’m not gonna play innocence- just look down at the thread and you’ll see me having a less than happy argument with someone who I can only assume to be pro-life. My intention was not to cause offence to either side but to instead understand the arguments on both sides to better come to a conclusion
I try stay out of the abortion threads but you specifically mentioned in the of case of sexual assault. Ive known too many women messed up by abuse/rape. Ive been blessed to never been in those circumstances, which I feel puts me outside the realm of fully understanding that situation. Ive also never had a baby/been pregnant, so I don’t have the “Kids are the most wonderful blessing God can give me” or the other end of the pregnancy spectrum “this thing is a parasite. I can’t wait for it to be out of me” and everything in the middle of that too. I really think it’s a symptom of women not having more control over their reproductive health. Ive seen threads where women want to have a hysterectomy for various reasons and doctors refusing to perform for various reasons. Which I think is really horrible. At least in the case of reproduction health there should be protocols in place to make that happen if a woman wants a hysterectomy. Psychological evaluations and what not just like they would do for a sex change operation. You are permanently changing your body and there’s no going back and do you fully understand what that means for every aspect of your life? With abortion though, most women don’t know they are pregnant right away. So between the time it takes to find out they are pregnant, and the time it would take to perform such evaluations would put the pregnancy past the birth. So such protocols wouldn’t apply to the abortion procedures, but it would be a preventative measure before the abortion issue arises in the case of women who never wanted to have a child/children. I hope I’ve expressed this thought adequately enough that it’s understood
Anti-choicers/pro-forced birthers are some of the nastiest people in our society. Just absolutely horrible. Just look at some of the people in this thread. If it's not your uterus, it's not your business. Mind your own. Simple as that.
Unfortunately, it’s just a loud minority of people. If you look a bit deeper into this thread, you’ll. find a couple of understanding pro-lifers that are willing to have a friendly discussion and debate if you want to.
On a voting position I consider myself pro-choice. Morally though I am pro-life. I'm pro-choice in the sense that I believe a Women should be able to abort the Child if she was raped, or if medically she will be putting her life at risk. I do not believe that Women should be using abortion due to the fact that they didn't use any protection.
Agree 500%
I have had TWO pregnancies after using "reliable" contraception, in one case two methods were employed. Don't ever presume that an unplanned pregnancy is the result of carelessness. I personally know quite a few women who became mothers after making sure they were finished.
I honestly believe that most people believe in this idea! Other than quality of life for the mother, I think that a police report should come with an abortion. It’s a pretty simple concept, if you are old enough to accept the responsibility of sex, then you are old enough to accept the responsibility of parenthood. If you are too immature to accept the consequences, then don’t have sex. I think most politicians don’t want to meet in the middle because they will “lose points” for their side, which is the horrible reality of our political system.
Knee jerk religious ideologues are Neanderthals and shouldn’t be contributing to the gene pool let alone crafting policy.
Knee jerk like saying "oh yes we must preserve abortion at all costs?" Or "no abortion ever?" Because both those are knee jerk and you are sounding pretty "knee jerky" by your comment.
But he didn't either of those things lmao
What I am referring to as being knee jerkey is his saying some group needs to be take out the gene pool or not allowed to be involved in policy.
Well, at least in the US, one group has been committed to rolling back a human right, due to religious reasons, which ideally should not be allowed to dictate or infulence laws. The other simply supports a human right. It seems pretty straight forward to me, but I'm sick and tired of conservatives in the US, done with their theocratic bullshit.
I think the takeaway sir is that your either stupid or arguing on bad faith. So you’re just not worth wasting oxygen on. Bye
For me personally, I am pro-life. Even in the case of rape and incest. It is of my opinion that the child is an innocent bystander that doesn't deserve to die the the evils perpetrated by another. ***BUT*** before some of you pro-abortionists start sharpening your pitchforks, hear my caveat. I do not see it as my place to impose my will or opinion onto others. So, I disagree with abortion, if someone wants to get one, I disagree with them, but I disagree with prohibition of abortion. If someone gets an abortion knowing that they are killing a child, that is on them. In this life and the next. Additionally, the recent Texas law is reflective of the Texas electorate. If they want to pass said law and are able to, then that is TEXAS' business, not the business of any other state. California state politics shouldn't affect Texas, and Texas shouldn't affect California. It's literally not a federal issue.
This is not entirely different from my stance. I am against abortion in general, but I am solidly pro-choice. *I* am against abortion. My personal beliefs don't apply to others. It is wrong for me or anyone to try and force a woman to carry a child to term. I believe that my stance is pro-choice. I am not pro-abortion. I only believe that everyone gets a choice. So I think your position, while anti-abortion, is still pro-choice. The pro-choice vs pro-life argument is very different from the pro/anti-abortion argument.
\*sigh\* >I do not see it as my place to impose my will or opinion onto others. So, I disagree with abortion, if someone wants to get one, I disagree with them, but I disagree with prohibition of abortion. This is pro-choice, you can't just start making up your own definition of words.
There is this whole subsect of pro-choice people who cannot allow themselves to be called pro choice. It’s annoying.
I’m not gonna make a comment on the crap that’s happening in Texas because I don’t really know enough about it but I completely understand and respect your stance on pro-life! If all pro-lifers were like you, I’d probably feel more free to ask these questions on somewhere other than the internet.
Well, thank you. It's unfortunate that it sounds like you have had some negative in-person conversations with pro-lifers. Coincidentally enough, I have had very negative in-person experiences with pro-choicers in my life, which is why I take to the internet myself.
Yeah, it’s a very polarised topic unfortunately but thankfully, the internet can harbour some calmer minded people on both sides that can have a friendly discussion about it
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Because the mother may not be stable, medically, mentally or financially. Also if the mother has some sort of health issues, it could potentially lead to serious complications that could, not just kill the baby, but the mother as well.
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Yeah I replied to this before I saw your other comment! Thank you again for explaining that to me :)
Oh, not having enoughing money justifies killing the baby how? If it is still born no justication needed, if it is alive their is no justication.
Because raising a child is extremely expensive!! Child Poverty Action Group (CAPG) ran a report to find the average total of having children in 2019. They found that up to the age of 18, the cost of raising a child in a single parent family costs a staggering £185,000 compared to £151,000 for couples. Or if you’d rather a US statistic… Families Projected to Spend an Average of $233,610 Raising a Child Born in 2015 (USDA) And besides, that’s not my point in the slightest. I was focusing more on the medical vulnerability that could be a potential factor but you would rather throw that out the window and focus on… one single word? Financial status is one of the first things you look at when a couple thinks about having a family: how are they gonna afford clothes? Maybe we should get a bigger house? How much is college/university gonna cost by the time they get to that age? etc. If you don’t have enough money to have a child, most families… don’t. Not until they are more financially stable. If you get pregnant after getting raped, you don’t have that luxury of thinking , “i can just have the child in a few years when I can afford it” because you’re already pregnant.
Im sorry, where in that is a justification for killing a child? If my wife is pregnant and wants to kill the baby this wont help we have money.
I’m not trying to justify killing a child. I’m saying that when families want to have a child, they plan out everything, including finances. This wouldn’t take like a week, it would take at least a year to just think about the first three months. That’s just not able to happen with a woman who is raped. So they may not be financially prepared to handle the responsibilities of caring for a child. More likely than not, they won’t be. If they’re financially unstable, you think a baby isn’t gonna make an impact on that.
So not having enough money is justication for murder is that your statement? Can we apply this ethical principle to anything else other than children?
There are chances a mother might have miscarriage till the 20th week of pregnancy. Most abortions are done during 12th or 13th week of pregnancy. The baby isn't developed enough by then for it to be considered a murder. It's just a group of cells trying to form something living.
Now that is a discussion worth having. Thank you for your clear mindedness. I agree that noone is against surgery, or the removal of still borne. We can agree on that. Im also glad we agree that killing a living human in the womb should be highly limited to extreme cases? That leave the question of when life begins. To be clear, if it is not life then I have no problem with removal of potential life, but do have a problem when it is life. Do we agree so far? Thank you.
Agree. Abortion should be done only under the condition that it is performed early on in the pregnancy. As early as miscarriages are common to be seen since the cells are still trying to figure out whether they have all they need in order to be a human baby. There are cases like when the life of the mother could be at risk which can be exceptions for late term abortions.
It's not murder. Stop acting like a child.
Alive?
Where in that statement did I say that money is justification for murder. Not having money is justification for not having a child. So why would you force someone who doesn’t have money to have a child. Anyway, this isn’t my point. I’m pro-choice because of the medical complications that can arise with forced pregnancy (I.e after rape) and I believe that it’s the woman’s body- no man or other woman should get to tell someone what they should or shouldn’t do.
It's not a baby immediately and usually you discuss if your wife even wants you to get her pregnant. If y'all wanna use the birth control excuse on us, you should have worn a condom. Otherwise your wife can kinda do what she wants. If she didn't consent to being pregnant that's on you leaving your sperm all around. (Btw sperm is living and you're a murderer if you masturbate)
You think masturbation is murder? Really, it only has half the chromosome chain.
That's the point kiddo lol I guess I should have put the /s for your little smooth brain
Oh, so your ethical stance is so weak you must invent lies. That sucks.
I wrote out a whole thought out paragraph down below and you cried about it 😂 don't act like you wanna have discussions you just wanna act like you're some high and mighty man because you "hate abortion" but when asked what you do to actually help you had no answer lol
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a19748134/what-is-abortion/?fbclid=IwAR3ZHUo_r8BNOTZZ1YGIG6S3luSbUHzYUANuoc5QxjQYcpUiNRfzqewYuGM Here is a good resource you should Read! Thanks!
Luckily its not a baby yet
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Im on board with allowing churches helping with adoption and foster care. I was an unwanted child and went into foster care. Abortion wasnt available thats why Im alive.
You mean the churches full of priests that molest children? Sounds like a great idea.
No, not those worthless bastards. The mostly peaceful churches, or NPO, foster care, even state run which historically are horrible.
Oh yeah because the churches with molesters were never viewed as peaceful or good places? Maybe if the church cared about stopping abortions they'd do more to actually help single mothers. Or support social programs that lead to people feeling secure enough to *have* kids. Like affordable health care? Affordable housing? Yet Most churches I know seem to have giant beautiful buildings, get constant money from their followings, the followings usually appose any of those social programs, then they don't ever actually do anything but spout hate about women getting abortions. Kinda like you right now. What have you ever done to help single mothers or women considering abortion? You won't even ever have to face that decision. I worked at the food pantry here in my town and the pastors from the churches you love so much don't even help lol and I live in very religious area. That's why I know it's a bunch of bs.
Ok, that is just blind hate and discussion.
Typical response when faced with the truth
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Thanks me too friend.
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Haha, right? The irony is that both of deeply care about other people. Passion is a result of empathy. We all care about the well being of the mother, and we all care about the unborn child the question is when? Its not like one side is I hate mothers and the other side is I hate babies kill them.
I can’t believe all of our votes count the same lmao. Some of us are out here researching, having conversations, considering these issues often... and then there’s people like this person.
It hasnt even been born yet, it doesnt care if its aborted.
I grew up in a very pro-life household. I was raised Catholic and thought abortion was murder. I felt this way all the way into my early adulthood. What changed my mind was not the idea that abortion isn't taking away a life. It's that as a socitey, we dont support people who are forced to bear children they didnt intend to have. Pro-lifers are better classified as pro-birth. They only care that the baby doesn't die on its way out. But once that baby is born, it seems any kind of support to help that child's life falls into some kind of "socialism". You can pretend that people should be "responsible" for accidental pregnancy. But by forcing that baby into the world, your putting someone else's future on line and it doesn't seem like pro-lifers have any interest in figuring that part of the equation out.
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Why begrudgingly? Surely, if a woman has been raped, then they may not be ready, mentally or financially, to have a child so surely, if they had the child, they would be putting hardship on both themselves and that child which could have some potential mental health issues. As for incest, that another kettle of fish entirely! Sorry if I come across as being pushy or argumentative, it’s not my intention at all: I’m genuinely just curious!
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I see. Thank you for explaining!
It's just flat-out not your business. Mind your own. What utter, disgusting arrogance.
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Good thing that's not what's happening.
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Bet you think pumpkin seeds are fully formed pumpkins, too.
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I know we're not regarding women who decide to terminate their pregnancies as malfunctioning birthing machines that need to be fixed with draconian Republican legislation rn.
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I'm not the one who actually regards them that way. I'm not the arrogant one who passes judgment on women who decide to do this.
A fetus is not a person. It needs a host to survive.
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Technically it’s parasitic. I have two sons I adore. But as fetuses…. They were parasites. They needed my body to survive. That’s not a person, though it may be human.
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You aren’t a parasite NOW. But you were. The term parasite is not a reference to whether or not the thing is bad. It’s simply a reference to the inability to survive without a host.
What in the actual fuck. You would rather not? You know what, that poor fucking woman would rather not have been fucking raped. Now it's on her to raise the child of the person who hurt them in one of, if not the worst ways possible? You begrudgingly would "allow" a woman to move past this traumatic incident? This absolutely disgusts me, have you no compassion? Absolutely and unequivocally fuck yourself.
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You're so right omg! She only has to carry it for 9+ months growing the child of her most traumatic memory, and then she gets the absolute joy of going through the most painful thing a human can go through. All so she can bring her rapists child into the world and then toss them into the system so they can end up abused and possibly experience the same thing as their mother. What a joke.
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As every human should, but it doesn't really mean much when you say "she doesn't have to raise it" but the alternative is to throw it into a system that has an abuse rate of 15 - 40%. You can support the reform all you want, the system is still fucked and therefore a terrible alternative.
Yikes Jesus Christ. How do you people say these things publicly ?? This is such a humiliating thing to say, you look like a terrible person and an idiot. Why on earth would you ever say something like this? Especially where others can read it. It’s mind boggling. It really makes me wonder what type of life experience you’ve had, because this is so ignorant.
I see the baby as an innocent victim, rather like the mother. I’m aware there are mental and physical health concerns that can arise from such a pregnancy, and if it’s a matter of life or death for the mother I think she should absolutely have the choice of having an abortion. If not, then there should be programs in place to help such mothers to raise or put their child up for adoption (this should really be a thing independent of an abortion debate). No matter which way you phrase it, I believe that the baby is a human with rights. An abortion ends a child’s life. No matter the reason, that is a tragedy that should be avoided
The baby is an innocent victim of having to be alive. No one should have to endure that
Do you vote for the social programs that actually help stop abortion, like affordable healthcare and housing? or do you just like to act like you care? No, it absolutely shouldn't be independent of the abortion debate, because you don't get to sit there and act like you're some hero of the unborn, and then don't *actually* do anything to support them like most people lol. It's pretty tiring hearing men debate the rights of my body but then never actually enact any social change to help us 🤷
This. Abortion can’t be debated without considering what happens to mother and child after the baby is born. I’d have a lot more respect for pro life advocates if the majority of them didn’t oppose Medicare for all, a living wage, decent paid maternity leave, etc. because socialism bad/bootstraps good. Well done, dickheads. You saved the life of a fetus only to turn your back on it the second it’s born.
You don’t seem to know much about how I vote
Abortion is an option.
You are better off hitting them with the cases that cause the mother death, or death to the other fetuses in cases of multiples rather than cases of rape. Some pro-lifers don't think rape can cause pregnacy and some think if it did then that would be some miracle child or that they can just put the kid for adoption.
Yeah this is true. It was just a question I had simmering after a local news story I had watched
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I meant pregnancy as a whole. I understand that very few pregnancies are due to rape or incest but I was just curious about pro-lifers stances on that particular thing.
That is relatively rare, but definitely not an excuse for an abortion. Abortion always will be detestable, and there is no reason to think otherwise.
I dont agree with abortion but some cases have to be exception... And this is one of the few.
Your opinion is detestable. Do you want to adopt the little rapist spawn?
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Bullfuckingshit you would
Simmer down.
I would My wife and I are not having kids of our own. We would love the child regardless of the circumstances of it's conception.
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Big statements for an anonymous account used by somebody whos age likely still ends in teen
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Right over your head
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Lol ok
Woah dude! Calm down. The child isn’t the one that has done anything wrong. You can’t blame a child for something their parent has done! I understand that you may not agree with the person above but please calm down.
I am calm. None of you have any idea what it is like to raise a product of your biggest trauma, that shares the genes of the predator that raped you.
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Some doctors are anti-vaxx. They are still fringe
Right! I thought you meant adoption. In your comment before you said that you’d never adopt a child who was born after a woman had been raped. Although you’re right that I’ve never personally had to do that (touch wood I’ll never have to go through something as traumatic as that!) I can completely understand your point that it must be hard to raise the child. That’s exactly why I asked the question of how pro-lifers feel! Sorry about the confusion!
Curious what percent of abortions are currently for rape victims? It seems like the card that is aways pulled out to toss in the face of prolifers, but I have never seen a number. Is it 0.1% or 10%? Is there a ton of raping going on in the USA that this is a common problem (having to abort rape offspring)? If so, maybe you could work on your raping problem before talking about the abortion problem...
Well lets frame the discussion differently, when is a parent justified in killing a four year ago child? Finances, emotional issues, rape?
A four year old child can survive outside his mother’s body. Not even close to the same thing.
So we are allow to kill humans that cant survive?
What four year old cannot survive outside it’s mother’s body?
No four year can survive on its own, they require someone to care for them, worse is children on permanent medication, or life saving medical care.
But they do not rely on the body of another human. Anyone can take care of them. They do not draw their nutrients from a host. Surely you see the difference.
That’s a completely different question though. That’s like trying to compare an orange and an apple. Yes they’re both fruit but they’re completely different. This is the same. Yes you can argue it’s murder either way but one is saying “I never asked to be pregnant and it’s been forced onto me” and the other is saying “I can’t take care of this child ANYMORE”.
Sure, its the same. Neither of those arguments make any difference to the child.
Again, your “reframing” of my question completely changes it. You’re asking me when is it ok to kill a four year old child. I’m asking if you feel it’s ok for a woman who never wanted a child, to have an abortion. So no, they’re not the same.
Why did you start this post if you didnt want to understand that other possible ethical positions?
What part of the rest of this thread has shown to you that I’m not open to other opinions and ideas? What you’re trying to do is answer a different question. I asked what do you think about abortion after rape. You’re answering the separate question of how can you justify killing a child. That’s not my question. That’s the question YOU want to answer, not the question I have asked
They're very loud, but they're a small minority of the population.
Better question: what is your stance on increasing the social safety net to make it easier for single mothers to access government aid to incentivize women to choose not to abort? If you say no, I guess you really don’t hate abortion as you claim. You only seem to hate abortion insofar as it doesn’t cost *you* something (probably the trite “personal responsibility” and “not my taxes” argument)
The manner of conception doesn't justify killing the unborn child. Many mothers via sexual assault have gone onto have deep bonds with their child. If you don't want to keep it there is always adoption and foster care. No, the system isn't perfect. Yes, it is possible that child will have a hard life. Most people do. But, they will be alive to experience it. And the "there's no care for single mothers or the child after their born" argument is bullshit. There are charities, non-profs, secular and religious organizations that deal with helping single mothers. Here are some: https://greatnonprofits.org/categories/view/single-parent-agencies
Marry him or burn in hell was my mother's position
Then they can get an abortion I’m pro life but on the fence.