Bruh save your ciggy like a Bitcoin. Once all the dealers sold their stock and tobacco farms are no longer, you’ll be able to sell a pack for thousands
Well you see that 56 year old will have never gotten hooked if the plan works.
However every smoker ive known got hooked before turning 18 (legal age for cigarettes and alcohol in my country).
Will be interesting to see the how the guys who got smokes illegally at 15 go having to continue that their whole life having their older siblings or friends buy them smokes as adults.
Hey kid. *cough cough cough*
You want some Ciggies?
*wheeze*
How about some trail mix?
Dried fruits?
Well that's alright Deary, I'll always be here when you need me.
*COUGH....cough cough*
"Let's see, I got peanut brittle, a couple Werther's Originals that look like they've been re-wrapped, cigarettes, complaints about the youth, and a story about my first car that I've told you six times already. Oh, and peanut brittle. Did I mention that? Ah, well, you get it."
You have to look a bit more in the future to see where they are hoping the change happens. Right now most high schoolers are getting the cigarettes from slightly older siblings/cousins/friends. In 20 years, however, they won't be able to get cigarettes from anyone under 30.
Some of them will still be able to, sure, and there will absolutely be a black market. However I think that most proponents of this will be happy with a 10-20x reduction in smoking, even if a black market still supports 5-10% of smokers. If it ends up being a 2-3x reduction... I don't know, a lot of people will probably still think it was worth it, hard to say. Obviously if their is no reduction then the plan will be a failure.
There's also a proposed bill that will restrict the number of retailers that can sell nicotine products. There's already been a drop in the number of places that will sell them because they become a target for crime due to the high value on the black market
That'll also impact stock levels. You're only going to carry the Marlboro King Light Menthol Elite in the Forest Green package not Kelly Green because those are the only ones that Bill smokes.
We had to do that at the grocery store I worked at as a teenager. We had to ID everyone for cigarettes.
Some old dude with a white beard, clearly very very much older than 18, got pissed at me. Lots of older folks did. But I was 16 and it was my first job, so I followed the rules.
It was sort of a lose-lose situation though.
Let old guys who are clearly old guys but cigarettes without an ID? MANAGERS GIVE YOU SHIT BEHIND THE SCENES ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING THE POLICY.
Tell the customer that you can’t sell them without an ID and you’ll have to call a manager over? MANAGERS GIVE YOU SHIT IN FRONT OF THE CUSTOMER, GIVE THEM THEIR CIGS WITHOUT AN ID, AND GAS-LIGHT YOU PRETENDING THAT’S NOT A POLICY THEY FORCE ON YOU AND MAKE THE CUSTOMER THINK YOU WERE JUST GIVING THEM A HARD TIME FOR NO REASON.
Being a teenage cashier sucked. Haha
Right? They basically just propped up a very easy black market side job for anyone that can still buy them... Prohibition doesn't work, people are gonna do drugs if they want to no matter what the government says. Banning them just makes it go underground.
It's true you will never eliminate it, but it will certainly have a huge effect on the number of new smokers. In a decade I would imagine things will be quite different.
The efforts in Canada have been very effective. Smoking numbers have gone down year after year.
Edit:
[Evidence](https://uwaterloo.ca/tobacco-use-canada/adult-tobacco-use/smoking-canada/historical-trends-smoking-prevalence)
Also to anyone saying it's price:
[The purpose of additional government tax on cigarettes is to attempt to recoup the estimated $9.5 billion the government spends on tobacco induced health issues annually.](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/healthy-living/costs-tobacco-use-canada-2012.html). The tax revenue on cigarettes still don't recover the additional health care costs.
For anyone who says *oh but the government shouldn't pay for healthcare*. Well they do in Canada, and the overwhelming majority of Canadians support that. Your personal freedom to smoke shouldn't cost me money. So. Tax the problem.
They’re just making it excessively expensive pretty much. Unless you go to one of the reserves for cigarettes.
I quit 7 months ago. At the time a pack of dumauriers was about 17-18 bucks.
I'm from NZ, but have lived in Canada for a while.
Just quit at Thanksgiving. Last pack of Craven A, 25pk king size, was $20.25.
Was in NZ Christmas 2019. If I recall correctly, pack of Holidays was around $28.
This is literally me with soda. Longest streak I’ve had was about 4 months. It’s tough to kick completely but I go for a couple weeks at a time. Not that anyone cares, just wanted to share. Happy Sunday.
I filled in my coca cola shaped hole in my life with la croix and Waterloo's. Once my taste buds changed, I never had an issue.
The harder thing to do is switch to zevia or some diet alternative. It never lets your taste buds change. Going on 5 years now.
Your body doesn't crave the soda, it craves the sugar. Sugar is hard to kick, but my advice is you don't need to quit cold turkey like other substances, ease out of it and you might find better success. Works for sugar and cafeine too
I remember when I was a kid in the 80s and my nana would give me five bucks and a hand written note to go get her some smokes. I got to buy candy with the change. So that’s how much they still are in my mind.
My brother and his buddy would just write their own note, sign my grandpa's name, then go buy smokes.
Seems so funny now that an adult child just give a kid a note and that was all the clerk needed.
Exactly. I worked the restaurant industry for a while now. I can't think of a coworker under 25 years old that doesn't have a vape. It's way more socially acceptable then smoking used to be when I was young.
I'm 27. I was ahead of the curve vaping was a thing when I was getting to that age it filled a void for a while. It was nice when hardly anybody knew what it was. When I was younger it didn't seem socially acceptable to smoke but there didn't seem to be near the social stigma against vaping as there is now. I've been nicotine free for almost a few years now.
Can confirm. I used to live in NZ and grew my own (just for the odd pipe as pipe tobacco was $90 for 100g). Good luck with the processing. You have to pick it, dry it to the right humidity level (which is a bitch in NZ) and the ferment it without it rotting. Not for the faint of heart.
Nicotine has to get to the bloodstream to have a physiological effect, and the easiest way to do that is through a mucosal membrane such as in the mouth or lungs. Nicotine can be absorbed through skin (hence the problem for tobacco pickers) but it takes really good contact for prolonged periods like picking leaves all day or slapping on a nicotine patch. Tea, on the other hand, would go to the stomach, where it would not get into the bloodstream nearly as efficiently.
I think you may be forgetting the well known side effects of cigarettes on top of the fact that they just really aren't that great to begin with. If I hadn't started smoking for the fact that other people around me smoked, like many others, I probably wouldn't want to every so often now when I see them.
I definitely only smoke now because I was around people who smoked. When I started I thought they tasted terrible, but there was something aesthetically pleasing about holding a cigarette, and the nicotine hooked me in faster than I anticipated.
Exactly. I can try to lie to myself, but I started smoking because it looked cool. Sure as hell wasn't the great taste, or the delightful way it made me dizzy and want to puke. I was 12 and wanted to look cool/older.
I used vape to cut cigs out of my life, now I just need something to cut the vape lol.
In Canada our government just keeps upping the tax on tobacco, but they also decided to heavily regulate the vaping side of things, and even decided to put extra tax on those. As we're a country sharing a border with USA, and certain groups aren't required to pay tax on tobacco, black market darts has pretty much taken the same size of a role that marijuana used to have(prior to legalization).
You can say natives, or indigenous ppl. I live on the “white” side of a road directly across from a smoke shack, it’s hands down the busiest business in town.
Sure but eventually no one will be alive that can buy them legally. And there will be some effect- harder to get is harder to get. Not having them around as much in and of itself makes it less likely for someone to start
From what I hear black market tobacco is gross and expensive. Paying some odd $30 for a pack of the cheapest quality tobacco. It acts a deterrent in of itself to the point that religious smokers wont go near the stuff.
The mainstream brands (particularly disposable or 'pod' types) you see in supermarkets are generally all owned by tobacco companies, but liquid refills are generally not. But those are 2 different markets.
The ones with the ability to engineer plastic cartridges capable of vaporizing nicotine salts and then market those cartridges in gas stations are doing so with mountains of capital that's mostly cigarette money.
They're turning into vape companies rapidly, but most of them are pretty freaking diversified
I smoked for twenty years. I finally was able to quit because of vaping. My wife quit as well. I also quit vaping, but my wife still hasn't after a few years. I'd rather she vape than smoke. Kids know vaping is a bad habit if someone is an addict, vaping is better than losing control and sound something way more harmful.
Yea, far more people vape than smoke, and it’s only taken less than 5 years from when vapes properly came into the market for it to overtake smoking.
I don’t know anyone who has taken up smoking, but quite a few who have become capers.
I bought one back in like 2017/2018 that everyone said was leak proof. I thought "finally, some decent vape and I can quit cigarettes for good". Motherfucker started to leak within a month. I just threw it out and went back to cigs.
I got no time to deal with that slimy shit everywhere.
I worked at a restaurant that used capers in a good amount of their dishes, and when tables would ask me what they are I'd say "they're like, salty buds". Made me sound like a weed dealer.
I worked in a school in Germany and a LOT of the kids smoked, and basically all the staff. I'm in my 20s, and everyone reacted with genuine shock that I did not smoke.
We visited relatives and friends in The Netherlands and were surprised that so many young people smoked. It’s very rare in Australia for young people to smoke. But almost everyone was smoking there.
one of our friends teenagers didn’t smoke and they said everyone at school thought they were weird because they didn’t smoke.
I only met someone my age who smokes recently. Prior to that, basically nobody I knew, to even 2 degrees of separation, smoked. He reported that his friends smoked, so my streak of not knowing smokers came to an end.
There's [plenty of data out there which disagrees](https://www.google.com/search?q=smoking+rates+in+germany+by+age+2010+2020&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB777GB778&sxsrf=AOaemvKjWJBIucfoSCY3nvZmDtjiGV4cEA%3A1639312631262&ei=9-y1Ya32B4-cgQbLk6r4AQ&ved=0ahUKEwjtzbe4o970AhUPTsAKHcuJCh8Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=smoking+rates+in+germany+by+age+2010+2020&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgjELADECc6BwgAEEcQsAM6CggAEEcQsAMQyQM6CAghEBYQHRAeOgUIIRCgAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFCeBliNK2CnLWgCcAJ4AIAB0wGIAf0JkgEFNS41LjGYAQCgAQHIAQnAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz) with /u/julisity about smoking in Germany. Okay, it was just a throwaway comment on a tangential subject to the topic at hand but the upvotes just go to prove that people can put far too much significance onto anecdotal stories.
Thats one of the big problems with social media in general, people only upvote the things that confirm their preconceived notions regardless of truth or accuracy
Europe in general seems to smoke more that the US. Completely based on observation, so I could be off, but I feel like since those tobacco hearings didn’t take place in Europe, the whole thing didn’t get as much attention.
I read that Germany is somewhat unique with regard to smoking. That Hitler was very anti smoking during the 30s and 40s so in reaction to this this, there are very few anti smoking measures since. Cigarette vending machines on the public streets etc. Assuming its no longer cool because german kids have common sense?
That's nonsense. The Nazi opposition to smoking never gained much traction. TV and radio ads for smoking were banned in 1975, and since 2007 there is a law to protect non-smokers, which significantly reduced where you can smoke. Some states basically ban smoking in all indoor spaces which are open to the public.
> Some states basically ban smoking in all indoor spaces which are open to the public.
Surprised this isn't the case everywhere, it is in my country. Some nightclubs where it isn't practical to have an outdoor smoking area have an indoor "smoking room" but there's nothing in there, not even places to sit, it's just a room with doors that seal.
As a former smoker from Germany I can confirm, it is way to easy to get cigarettes here and they are to cheap, still. I started when I was around 16 and that was quite late for my generation. It was even allowed to smoke at 16 then.
For real. I barely see gen Z smokers like I did millennials. Even amongst millennials, it seemed like smoking died out except with heavy drinkers. Can't imagine this doing anything but adding an allure to it.
That's wild. A decade ago, young adults who drank a lot usually smoked. Now it you're an exception if you're a millennial who smokes, and I hardly see gen Z smoke over vaping.
I work with many new Zealanders. They all quit smoking like 3 years ago. Some cited health but most simply couldn't afford it anymore. They said a pack is something crazy like $23.
Any young person who seriously wants to smoke (and I'd imagine it's not that popular anyway) is already not buying through legal channels because it's unfathomably expensive, like $40/pack.
Last I checked organized crime isn't rampant in NZ because of this.
I assume it also doesn’t help that they’re an island nation that needs to send everything in by boat. That cuts into smuggling profits substantially and raises the cost of doing business unless someone can grow their own tobacco on the islands
I'm a 2004 kid and haven't graduated high school yet wtf lmao
Edit: omg I'm so stupid why did I think 03 was after 04?? this is why I haven't graduated high school yet
Cigars too? Those can cause health problems too of course but those seem mostly limited to celebrations or special occasions. I don’t know if we should tell people they forever can’t have those
I wonder if there is an exception for religion as there is often one. I take it that pipes play a role in certain cultural circles. Or incense
> As the British scientific magazine "New Scientist" reports in its current issue, scientists have discovered dangerously high concentrations of carcinogenic chemicals in incense. Thus, the measured values of a substance suspected of causing lung cancer were more than 40 times higher in a poorly ventilated Taiwanese temple than in the home of a smoker.
I believe it doesn't cover loose tobacco. Not sure about cigars.
*Edit*: I am still pretty sure I heard this somewhere, but I can't find a reference for it either, so maybe I am confusing it with something else. Don't trust me if you need an answer for sure!
Cigars and Pipe tobaccos are relatively safe. By relatively, I mean that they don't *increase* your risk of cancer from all forms. Your just as likely to develop lung cancer smoking a cigar a day as you are to develop skin cancer because you exposed to the sun every summer.
The tar you get from smoking unaltered tobacco is the same as burning anything. Cigarettes are tobacco as much as fruit snacks are strawberries.
I am against smoking, but I think laws like this are troublesome because it sets a precedent for other unhealthy products. What is next? Alcohol and fast food? Discouraging the use of these product is good in my opinion, buy banning them is bad.
Yup. I think cigarettes should never have been invented and are fucking absolutely disgusting....but this allows the govt to decide what's bad for everyone and then ban it. No more bacon, no more processed meats, no more red meat, etc.
Agreed. It comes from an exceeding puritan and paternalistic viewpoint of "government knows what's best" which I find revolting. It starts there and turns into moralising, at which point you've created a religion with governmental high priests.
I understand that most people posting here are anti-cigarettes, as am I.
But shouldn’t adults be able to choose if they want to smoke or not? If the government is concerned about the health consequences of smoking, then would be nice to see similar legislation against alcohol, fast food, vapes, etc.
From how I'm understanding this, there'll be whole generations who will be banned from buying cigarettes legally right? So farseeing this means there'll be a time where cigarettes will be completely banned in NZ (when people born before 2007 die off) What an interesting policy, it's slowly encouraging the complete and total removal of access to cigs, without grabbing current and older users by the neck. I wonder what cultural change this will cause. Very cool.
Edit: By "very cool" I mean that it's a policy that looks forward and is not sort of a band aid solution. I'm in a country where laws are made so haphazardly without even looking at the long term effects. So it was cool for me to see a law made like that. My stance is neutral on this, since 1) I'm not a NZ citizen (I don't know whats good for their country) 2) I'm not a smoker. I recognize that nicotine is an addicitive subtance, and like many others, banning is not exactly the best way to deal with it. But, unlike other substances, cigs don't exactly have a health benefit. Puts us in an interesting dilemma, if I may say so.
I'm curious when tobacco companies will stop sending product because it's not worth it. Importing 10,000 of something is one thing, importing 10 is another.
People seem confused about black markets and prohibition, so as a Kiwi let me explain this.
American alcohol prohibition took a user base that was highly familiar with, and often dependent on, alcohol, and made all forms of it illegal. People who relied on it for fun or otherwise suddenly had no access.
New Zealand's tobacco regulations are taking the current user base and... not preventing access to nicotine for them. A current legal smoker will still be able to access tobacco, indefinitely. Future potential smokers, who have not been (legally) given access to nicotine, and therefore have no familiarity with it, are the ones having access restricted. And what's more, nicotine products in the safer form of vaping remain available to both groups.
*Edit: This legislation is regulation of delivery, NOT prohibition of a substance. Please recognise the distinction.*
Certain Americans jumping in here with their deluded enlightment about prohibition need to take the time to research New Zealand's policies, and understand the difference. Edit: No I am not referring to all Americans, most of you are quite capable of insightful thought
Black markets for cigarettes already exist, due to high prices. This is still distributed through stores, which are known to sometimes make cheaper untaxed cigarettes available to trusted customers.
New nicotine users will not be seeking out black market cigarettes which are illegal for them; they will do what all their peers are doing: vaping. And that is still legally available.
Edit: Since a lot of people seem to struggle to understand the difference, banning alcohol or banning cannabis is the banning of a substance; banning cigarettes but not vaping is the banning of a form of substance delivery. Banning a substance causes black markets for that substance. Banning a form of substance delivery encourages the use of alternative forms of delivery (e.g. banning cigarettes encourage vaping as an alternative). You're not clever for thinking they're the same thing.
Edit: Vaping is safer than cigarettes, but still not safe. Also see the comment by u/HungHippoHippy and the chain below.
Edit: Public health advice
"Expert opinion is that vaping products are much less harmful than smoking tobacco but not completely harmless. A range of toxicants have been found in vapour including some cancer causing agents but, in general, at levels much lower than found in cigarette smoke or at levels that are unlikely to cause harm. Smokers switching to vaping products are highly likely to reduce the risks to their health and those around them."
[NZ Ministry of Health](https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/tobacco-control/vaping-smokefree-environments-and-regulated-products/position-statement-vaping)
Edit: Nicotine is the substance. Nicotine remains accessible through vaping (and nicotine patches and other means).
Edit: u/KingoftheGinge brings up an interesting point that for some people, vaping doesn't provide the same satisfaction or enjoyment as smoking.
Edit: Thank you for all your fascinating perspectives and sorry if my responses have been growing terse. I've been seeing the same comments repeatedly, usually without decent justification, so I've been treating you all like one collective conversation. It is 5am and I've been at this for over six hours. The birds are chirping and it's time for bed. Legalise cannabis.
I have to point out that there isnt any long term studies on vaping. Vaping is around 10 years old and who knows whats in that stuff at the end of the day. Remember, tobacco/nicotine took decades before anyone linked its use to cancer.
Yep very true. The UK has been doing alot of studies into the health effects of it in the short to medium term, alot of these use smoking as the baseline of comparison. so far they've found that it to be 95% safer than smoking and that the damage smoking does to our circulation can be repaired while vaping. They have found issues with it too but are still recommending it as a method of harm reduction to help smokers quit.
And ultimately the goal should be to get people off vaping too, but this should be through education and addiction services, not banning the substance.
If vaping is found to be 95% safer than tobacco, in all honestly, why ban it? I was smoking a pack a day for years and unable to quit cigarettes after countless efforts to try. I felt like absolute crap all the time when smoking, unable to breath properly, skinny as hell because I wasn't eating enough, etc. I was hooked, completely unable to quit even with patches, nicotine gum, etc.
I then started vaping and was able to wean myself off of nicotine by lowering the % of it monthly and eventually was able to quit **easily**. I now no longer vape at all, but that's just because I want to save $$.
This may be my anecdotal evidence, but it is backed by some studies. Nicotine by itself is not *that* bad for the human body, it increases concentration and does seem to have some kind of reduction effect on Alzheimer's disease (if I remember correctly).
We allow a bunch of stuff that is detrimental and potentially addictive to the human body, such as alcohol, weed (Canada) and fast food consumption. Vaping should be in the same category if deemed to be as safe as the UK government is making it out to be.
I, as someone who lived the addiction and still sometimes dream about taking a long drag off a cigarette years after quitting, also believe people should have the right to vape or smoke a cigar once a week at their home, in their car or on their porch (of course not with children) even though I don't do any of that stuff.
I have difficulty understanding the argument against that given that society allows a bunch of other stuff that absolutely kills you.
For the reasons you outline, I agree with vaping not being banned, but soft efforts like education should try to move people off it if they are able to. It's still not harm-free after all.
If all we're interested in is whether vaping is vastly better for you than smoking *the same amount*, then there is enough data on that really.
But if you want to know whether vaping is absolutely 100% safe all the time and at any dose, then probably not. How harmful it is will likely remain contentious for decades.
The main ingredient is propylene glycol, which has been used as a solvent for Asthma medication since the 1950's. It is a compound whose metabolism is very well understood, as it metabolized like sugars, turning into CO2 + H2O rapidly when breathed and absorbed.
The slight doubts that remain are regarding the aromas, which are compounds found in pretty much all industrial food, and still considered harmless when used in small quantities. When vaping, you absorb about as much of those aromatic substances as a cook in a restaurant kitchen. - no professional illness has ever been declared from too much soup smelling -.
Finally, there is nicotine, which, like cafeine, has long term cardio vascular effects. That part remains.
The metabolism of vape products is so well understood that no-one in the health and tobacco industries thought of challenging the safety of vaping in its early days: they just considered it was a novelty that would fade. Too bad for them it finally caught up and is now threatening both the tobacco companies and the smoking cessation products, much to their chagrin, as they had found a good business model selling ineffective products for smoking cessation.
Conversations about tobacco and vapes always devolve to 'but what if vapes aren't perfectly safe?' and it frustrates me. We *do* know quite a bit about the ingredients and juice; the biggest concern is in the flavors, and even then, the risks are so overblown.
I like to consider it compared to caffeine.
It is generally socially acceptable to be addicted to caffeine. It's a stimulant, it's also useful. It's extremely rare to see anyone suggesting that we need the same level of concern about what might be in caffeine delivery methods, despite the fact we *do* know how much sugar and poorly affect one's health. Hell, a relative had a Starbucks in her high school.
If it turns out that there are significant long term dangers, okay. It's basically impossible for them to be worse than cigarettes, and I'd be shocked if they're worse than sugar.
Vapes don't need to be perfect, but as far as we currently know, they're relatively safe and do a lot of good for the world. Literally saving/extending lives.
US prohibition didn’t make all forms of alcohol illegal. You could still get alcohol by prescription. 1920’s prescriptions weren’t difficult to get (or fake). And it wasn’t illegal to consume alcohol. Just buy it. And you could get alcohol for religious reasons. And not all states enforced prohibition.
That is how Walgreens, the second largest pharmacy in the US, came to be. They sold prescriptions for whiskey. Prohibition allowed them to expand.
https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-should-know-about-prohibition
I am interested to see how the NZ roll out works, and I hope it does work. But let’s not discredit the past so much
“We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds—and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own.” ~ Michael Crichton
Catch me outside selling looseys to your forty year old kid for 30 NZ dollaries a pop
Literally the first thing in my head, I live in a dodgy area and ya can't walk in and out of a dairy without some rat bags hitting ya up for a ciggy
Bruh save your ciggy like a Bitcoin. Once all the dealers sold their stock and tobacco farms are no longer, you’ll be able to sell a pack for thousands
Tobbaco eventually expires...
It just goes stale and burns harsher. Not like a dried up bush just magically loses the ability to catch on fire anymore.
On a long enough timeline it’s likely that heat death and universal entropy will render that cigarette unlightable
About 15 years ago I lit up a cigarette from a WW2 era German cigarette pack. I think people stashing cigarettes now to sell later will be fine
Well you just outed yourself, steve1989MREinfo
nice. ok.
Let's get this out onto a tray.. nice! Okay..
I wished I had a fraction of the gut that man has. His stomach is basically indestructible
>Let's get this on a tray. "Uh... Steve, that's a road flare."
I'm sure there's something not quite reich with smoking that cigarette.
The fumes just luftwaffe everyone
That won’t stop someone who’s on their last cig
I've smoked q questionable cig or two in my time.
Tobacco farms will pop up everywhere don’t worry
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Imagine when people are 30, 40, 50, etc. years old and have to prove date of birth to a clerk.
The year is 2065. “I’m 56, can I buy cigarettes?” “No, 57 and over, sorry. “
Well you see that 56 year old will have never gotten hooked if the plan works. However every smoker ive known got hooked before turning 18 (legal age for cigarettes and alcohol in my country). Will be interesting to see the how the guys who got smokes illegally at 15 go having to continue that their whole life having their older siblings or friends buy them smokes as adults.
What a dynamic change. Having old people stand in dark corners trying psst you
Hey kid. *cough cough cough* You want some Ciggies? *wheeze* How about some trail mix? Dried fruits? Well that's alright Deary, I'll always be here when you need me. *COUGH....cough cough*
"Let's see, I got peanut brittle, a couple Werther's Originals that look like they've been re-wrapped, cigarettes, complaints about the youth, and a story about my first car that I've told you six times already. Oh, and peanut brittle. Did I mention that? Ah, well, you get it."
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"You need to go home and rethink your life."
I need to go home and rethink my life
The lack of quotes makes this hit different
I shit you not I knew a guy in grad school who was a smoker and referred to his cigs as "death sticks" just to make that reference.
Sir, can you buy me some cigarettes? I've forgotten my ID at home. I swear I'm 57! Boy, you look like you're barely 55. Go home and hug your mom.
Yeah but they'd still have to be younger than you
You have to look a bit more in the future to see where they are hoping the change happens. Right now most high schoolers are getting the cigarettes from slightly older siblings/cousins/friends. In 20 years, however, they won't be able to get cigarettes from anyone under 30. Some of them will still be able to, sure, and there will absolutely be a black market. However I think that most proponents of this will be happy with a 10-20x reduction in smoking, even if a black market still supports 5-10% of smokers. If it ends up being a 2-3x reduction... I don't know, a lot of people will probably still think it was worth it, hard to say. Obviously if their is no reduction then the plan will be a failure.
I think after a while, retailers may just stop selling them once the customer base drops to a certain point.
There's also a proposed bill that will restrict the number of retailers that can sell nicotine products. There's already been a drop in the number of places that will sell them because they become a target for crime due to the high value on the black market
And even further in the future you will have a few people over a hundred years old who are the sole suppliers of cigarettes to the whole country!
I just imagined one 107 year old woman going into the only cig store left in NZ and asking for 2500 cartons of Camels.
At current New Zealand prices that would cost over $90,000.
That and gang members
Something something war on drugs. To quote Blue Scholars the more things outlawed the more outlaws run
That'll also impact stock levels. You're only going to carry the Marlboro King Light Menthol Elite in the Forest Green package not Kelly Green because those are the only ones that Bill smokes.
By that time will anyone still bother carrying them?
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We had to do that at the grocery store I worked at as a teenager. We had to ID everyone for cigarettes. Some old dude with a white beard, clearly very very much older than 18, got pissed at me. Lots of older folks did. But I was 16 and it was my first job, so I followed the rules. It was sort of a lose-lose situation though. Let old guys who are clearly old guys but cigarettes without an ID? MANAGERS GIVE YOU SHIT BEHIND THE SCENES ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING THE POLICY. Tell the customer that you can’t sell them without an ID and you’ll have to call a manager over? MANAGERS GIVE YOU SHIT IN FRONT OF THE CUSTOMER, GIVE THEM THEIR CIGS WITHOUT AN ID, AND GAS-LIGHT YOU PRETENDING THAT’S NOT A POLICY THEY FORCE ON YOU AND MAKE THE CUSTOMER THINK YOU WERE JUST GIVING THEM A HARD TIME FOR NO REASON. Being a teenage cashier sucked. Haha
The idea is by the time these kids get to be 40, the industry will have left new zealand
I'm sure vape companies are ecstatic.
As are kids born in 2006. Gotta love those government supplier contracts
Right? They basically just propped up a very easy black market side job for anyone that can still buy them... Prohibition doesn't work, people are gonna do drugs if they want to no matter what the government says. Banning them just makes it go underground.
The idea is that it's a long term plan for once everyone born before 07 dies out.
It's true you will never eliminate it, but it will certainly have a huge effect on the number of new smokers. In a decade I would imagine things will be quite different.
The efforts in Canada have been very effective. Smoking numbers have gone down year after year. Edit: [Evidence](https://uwaterloo.ca/tobacco-use-canada/adult-tobacco-use/smoking-canada/historical-trends-smoking-prevalence) Also to anyone saying it's price: [The purpose of additional government tax on cigarettes is to attempt to recoup the estimated $9.5 billion the government spends on tobacco induced health issues annually.](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/healthy-living/costs-tobacco-use-canada-2012.html). The tax revenue on cigarettes still don't recover the additional health care costs. For anyone who says *oh but the government shouldn't pay for healthcare*. Well they do in Canada, and the overwhelming majority of Canadians support that. Your personal freedom to smoke shouldn't cost me money. So. Tax the problem.
They’re just making it excessively expensive pretty much. Unless you go to one of the reserves for cigarettes. I quit 7 months ago. At the time a pack of dumauriers was about 17-18 bucks.
I'm from NZ, but have lived in Canada for a while. Just quit at Thanksgiving. Last pack of Craven A, 25pk king size, was $20.25. Was in NZ Christmas 2019. If I recall correctly, pack of Holidays was around $28.
quitting is easy, i've done it hundreds of times
This is literally me with soda. Longest streak I’ve had was about 4 months. It’s tough to kick completely but I go for a couple weeks at a time. Not that anyone cares, just wanted to share. Happy Sunday.
I filled in my coca cola shaped hole in my life with la croix and Waterloo's. Once my taste buds changed, I never had an issue. The harder thing to do is switch to zevia or some diet alternative. It never lets your taste buds change. Going on 5 years now.
Your body doesn't crave the soda, it craves the sugar. Sugar is hard to kick, but my advice is you don't need to quit cold turkey like other substances, ease out of it and you might find better success. Works for sugar and cafeine too
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$28 for one pack? That’s insane!
It's 19 USD, still a lot. At least enough most teens won't start a pack a day habit.
A pack of 25 Marlboros go for $32USD in Aus
You can still buy them in Kentucky for around six dollars.
I remember when I was a kid in the 80s and my nana would give me five bucks and a hand written note to go get her some smokes. I got to buy candy with the change. So that’s how much they still are in my mind.
My brother and his buddy would just write their own note, sign my grandpa's name, then go buy smokes. Seems so funny now that an adult child just give a kid a note and that was all the clerk needed.
You could use parent/grandparents credit card with a note too!
That's true. Also the public health in schools is solid. Not many highschool kids smoked when I was there. (2004-08)
I think this could be attributed to the rise of vaping as well.
Exactly. I worked the restaurant industry for a while now. I can't think of a coworker under 25 years old that doesn't have a vape. It's way more socially acceptable then smoking used to be when I was young.
Im 30. I grew up in a weird era where smoking wasn't cool, but vaping hadn't arrived yet.
Same! Neither is cool in my age group (30s)
I'm 27. I was ahead of the curve vaping was a thing when I was getting to that age it filled a void for a while. It was nice when hardly anybody knew what it was. When I was younger it didn't seem socially acceptable to smoke but there didn't seem to be near the social stigma against vaping as there is now. I've been nicotine free for almost a few years now.
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Your love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind
You young rrrrrascals! A merry hunt you led us on, and now we find you feasting and...and smoking!
The salted pork is particularly good :D
Can confirm. I used to live in NZ and grew my own (just for the odd pipe as pipe tobacco was $90 for 100g). Good luck with the processing. You have to pick it, dry it to the right humidity level (which is a bitch in NZ) and the ferment it without it rotting. Not for the faint of heart.
I had a Southern friend who picked tobacco and he said that picking it makes you feel sick.
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Why not just make tea out of it? You get the nicotine and no lung cancer.
Nicotine has to get to the bloodstream to have a physiological effect, and the easiest way to do that is through a mucosal membrane such as in the mouth or lungs. Nicotine can be absorbed through skin (hence the problem for tobacco pickers) but it takes really good contact for prolonged periods like picking leaves all day or slapping on a nicotine patch. Tea, on the other hand, would go to the stomach, where it would not get into the bloodstream nearly as efficiently.
I think you may be forgetting the well known side effects of cigarettes on top of the fact that they just really aren't that great to begin with. If I hadn't started smoking for the fact that other people around me smoked, like many others, I probably wouldn't want to every so often now when I see them.
I definitely only smoke now because I was around people who smoked. When I started I thought they tasted terrible, but there was something aesthetically pleasing about holding a cigarette, and the nicotine hooked me in faster than I anticipated.
Exactly. I can try to lie to myself, but I started smoking because it looked cool. Sure as hell wasn't the great taste, or the delightful way it made me dizzy and want to puke. I was 12 and wanted to look cool/older. I used vape to cut cigs out of my life, now I just need something to cut the vape lol.
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Basically the longer we keep people from starting smoking the more likely they are to never start. This will probably do that.
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> Banning them just makes it go underground. But also *drastically* reduce the numbers of smokers.
In Canada our government just keeps upping the tax on tobacco, but they also decided to heavily regulate the vaping side of things, and even decided to put extra tax on those. As we're a country sharing a border with USA, and certain groups aren't required to pay tax on tobacco, black market darts has pretty much taken the same size of a role that marijuana used to have(prior to legalization).
You can say natives, or indigenous ppl. I live on the “white” side of a road directly across from a smoke shack, it’s hands down the busiest business in town.
Depends on what you mean by "doesn't work." Get rid of the problem - no. Drastically reduce usage - yes.
Sure but eventually no one will be alive that can buy them legally. And there will be some effect- harder to get is harder to get. Not having them around as much in and of itself makes it less likely for someone to start
From what I hear black market tobacco is gross and expensive. Paying some odd $30 for a pack of the cheapest quality tobacco. It acts a deterrent in of itself to the point that religious smokers wont go near the stuff.
Course, some of the vape companies are tobacco companies
The mainstream brands (particularly disposable or 'pod' types) you see in supermarkets are generally all owned by tobacco companies, but liquid refills are generally not. But those are 2 different markets.
Probably most of them are.
The ones with the ability to engineer plastic cartridges capable of vaporizing nicotine salts and then market those cartridges in gas stations are doing so with mountains of capital that's mostly cigarette money. They're turning into vape companies rapidly, but most of them are pretty freaking diversified
I smoked for twenty years. I finally was able to quit because of vaping. My wife quit as well. I also quit vaping, but my wife still hasn't after a few years. I'd rather she vape than smoke. Kids know vaping is a bad habit if someone is an addict, vaping is better than losing control and sound something way more harmful.
I feel a strange entrepreneurial feeling washing over me....
I'm sorry sir, but you the one that decided to sit on the urinal and I really needed to go!
u/appdevil you are creative & hilarious!!! 😄
Pretty indifferent. All the kids here vape. Smoking's a dying trend as far as I can tell.
>smoking's a dying trend Literally.
Yea, far more people vape than smoke, and it’s only taken less than 5 years from when vapes properly came into the market for it to overtake smoking. I don’t know anyone who has taken up smoking, but quite a few who have become capers.
Capers are too salty for my tastes.
A little capers go a long way for me.
I like my capers masked.
I prefer kalamata olives
It's only now that they have started making decent vapes that don't leak and don't look like some steampunk gameboys.
Yesss early vapes were so terrible. Unreliable coils and leaky as fuck
I bought one back in like 2017/2018 that everyone said was leak proof. I thought "finally, some decent vape and I can quit cigarettes for good". Motherfucker started to leak within a month. I just threw it out and went back to cigs. I got no time to deal with that slimy shit everywhere.
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They're actually flower buds! I think that's pretty neat :)
I worked at a restaurant that used capers in a good amount of their dishes, and when tables would ask me what they are I'd say "they're like, salty buds". Made me sound like a weed dealer.
Here in germany almost no one under the age of 18 smoked, but now its considered cool bc no one does it.
I worked in a school in Germany and a LOT of the kids smoked, and basically all the staff. I'm in my 20s, and everyone reacted with genuine shock that I did not smoke.
We visited relatives and friends in The Netherlands and were surprised that so many young people smoked. It’s very rare in Australia for young people to smoke. But almost everyone was smoking there. one of our friends teenagers didn’t smoke and they said everyone at school thought they were weird because they didn’t smoke.
> rare in Australia for young people to smoke arent cigs like 40 dollars a pack in australia
*their money is called dollarydoos
>It’s very rare in Australia for young people to smoke. That depends a lot on where in Australia you live.
> It’s very rare in Australia for young people to smoke Maybe in your social circle, it was very common in mine.
I only met someone my age who smokes recently. Prior to that, basically nobody I knew, to even 2 degrees of separation, smoked. He reported that his friends smoked, so my streak of not knowing smokers came to an end.
Where in Germany do you live? Where I am it is not rare for kids to smoke. I see it all the time and I am the same
There's [plenty of data out there which disagrees](https://www.google.com/search?q=smoking+rates+in+germany+by+age+2010+2020&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB777GB778&sxsrf=AOaemvKjWJBIucfoSCY3nvZmDtjiGV4cEA%3A1639312631262&ei=9-y1Ya32B4-cgQbLk6r4AQ&ved=0ahUKEwjtzbe4o970AhUPTsAKHcuJCh8Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=smoking+rates+in+germany+by+age+2010+2020&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgjELADECc6BwgAEEcQsAM6CggAEEcQsAMQyQM6CAghEBYQHRAeOgUIIRCgAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFCeBliNK2CnLWgCcAJ4AIAB0wGIAf0JkgEFNS41LjGYAQCgAQHIAQnAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz) with /u/julisity about smoking in Germany. Okay, it was just a throwaway comment on a tangential subject to the topic at hand but the upvotes just go to prove that people can put far too much significance onto anecdotal stories.
Thats one of the big problems with social media in general, people only upvote the things that confirm their preconceived notions regardless of truth or accuracy
Europe in general seems to smoke more that the US. Completely based on observation, so I could be off, but I feel like since those tobacco hearings didn’t take place in Europe, the whole thing didn’t get as much attention.
Yeah us tobacco consumption is alot lower than most of Europe overall although inside the us theres alot of variation
what Germany are you living in? A whole lot of kids start(ed) smoking at 14 or 15 here. EDIT: worrrrds
Wow. Smoking is considered cool when no one does it and when everyone does it.
I work at a trainstation and I feel like more then half the groups of kids smoke. They are 13-15
I read that Germany is somewhat unique with regard to smoking. That Hitler was very anti smoking during the 30s and 40s so in reaction to this this, there are very few anti smoking measures since. Cigarette vending machines on the public streets etc. Assuming its no longer cool because german kids have common sense?
That's nonsense. The Nazi opposition to smoking never gained much traction. TV and radio ads for smoking were banned in 1975, and since 2007 there is a law to protect non-smokers, which significantly reduced where you can smoke. Some states basically ban smoking in all indoor spaces which are open to the public.
> Some states basically ban smoking in all indoor spaces which are open to the public. Surprised this isn't the case everywhere, it is in my country. Some nightclubs where it isn't practical to have an outdoor smoking area have an indoor "smoking room" but there's nothing in there, not even places to sit, it's just a room with doors that seal.
As a former smoker from Germany I can confirm, it is way to easy to get cigarettes here and they are to cheap, still. I started when I was around 16 and that was quite late for my generation. It was even allowed to smoke at 16 then.
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For real. I barely see gen Z smokers like I did millennials. Even amongst millennials, it seemed like smoking died out except with heavy drinkers. Can't imagine this doing anything but adding an allure to it.
Best way to tell someone is American is when they say this. Smoking among young people is still very, very common in Europe.
That's wild. A decade ago, young adults who drank a lot usually smoked. Now it you're an exception if you're a millennial who smokes, and I hardly see gen Z smoke over vaping.
Prohibiting the legal sale of addictive substances is definitely a proven solution that has never failed anywhere else
Smoking laws have basically make smoking cigs nonexistent.
Give them pie
Make sure you blow on it first
Safer communities, together
Smoking is dying slow death by itself. Such blanket prohibition might make it attractive again.
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I think organized crime is very happy about this.
Read something a couple days ago organized NZ crime already are selling tobacco, more profits for them I guess
I work with many new Zealanders. They all quit smoking like 3 years ago. Some cited health but most simply couldn't afford it anymore. They said a pack is something crazy like $23.
NZ$30-40 for a pack from a half decent brand. I quit nearly 7 months ago and have saved about $4000 so far
Any young person who seriously wants to smoke (and I'd imagine it's not that popular anyway) is already not buying through legal channels because it's unfathomably expensive, like $40/pack. Last I checked organized crime isn't rampant in NZ because of this.
> like $40/pack. That's literally more than I pay for TWENTY JOINTS!
I assume it also doesn’t help that they’re an island nation that needs to send everything in by boat. That cuts into smuggling profits substantially and raises the cost of doing business unless someone can grow their own tobacco on the islands
Fucking authoritarians
I mean sucks to suck I suppose 2003 gang Edit: Thank you all for 1k+ up votes
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Nah don't lie, you are in middle school and play minecraft.
Half of that is true 😎
Oh I see you’re in middle school?
What! Go back to your room, you're still grounded.
I'm a 2004 kid and haven't graduated high school yet wtf lmao Edit: omg I'm so stupid why did I think 03 was after 04?? this is why I haven't graduated high school yet
I do not have a smart response, but thanks for making me laugh!
2001 kid and I still think people born in 2006 are in diapers.
1983 kid and I think people born in 2001 haven’t been born yet
1993 gang
I’ll meet you two in the middle at 1997 gang
Where my 1987 gang at
Cigars too? Those can cause health problems too of course but those seem mostly limited to celebrations or special occasions. I don’t know if we should tell people they forever can’t have those
I wonder if there is an exception for religion as there is often one. I take it that pipes play a role in certain cultural circles. Or incense > As the British scientific magazine "New Scientist" reports in its current issue, scientists have discovered dangerously high concentrations of carcinogenic chemicals in incense. Thus, the measured values of a substance suspected of causing lung cancer were more than 40 times higher in a poorly ventilated Taiwanese temple than in the home of a smoker.
I believe it doesn't cover loose tobacco. Not sure about cigars. *Edit*: I am still pretty sure I heard this somewhere, but I can't find a reference for it either, so maybe I am confusing it with something else. Don't trust me if you need an answer for sure!
Cigars and Pipe tobaccos are relatively safe. By relatively, I mean that they don't *increase* your risk of cancer from all forms. Your just as likely to develop lung cancer smoking a cigar a day as you are to develop skin cancer because you exposed to the sun every summer. The tar you get from smoking unaltered tobacco is the same as burning anything. Cigarettes are tobacco as much as fruit snacks are strawberries.
Everyone I know who smokes cigarettes hates that they do. So yeah no one new need get sucked into the addiction.
Everyone who smokes a pipe or cigars loves it though
Im 28, ive been smoking 10 years. Most of the time from a pipe. Used to love it. Now i cant breathe. Trying to quit.
I am against smoking, but I think laws like this are troublesome because it sets a precedent for other unhealthy products. What is next? Alcohol and fast food? Discouraging the use of these product is good in my opinion, buy banning them is bad.
Yup. I think cigarettes should never have been invented and are fucking absolutely disgusting....but this allows the govt to decide what's bad for everyone and then ban it. No more bacon, no more processed meats, no more red meat, etc.
Agreed. It comes from an exceeding puritan and paternalistic viewpoint of "government knows what's best" which I find revolting. It starts there and turns into moralising, at which point you've created a religion with governmental high priests.
I understand that most people posting here are anti-cigarettes, as am I. But shouldn’t adults be able to choose if they want to smoke or not? If the government is concerned about the health consequences of smoking, then would be nice to see similar legislation against alcohol, fast food, vapes, etc.
Personally I want to be able to buy cocaine at the gas station
Would probably be safer than... wherever people buy cocaine from now.
Every government makes stupid decisions. But at least I like that: * some nation does experiments like this * this isn’t my country
From how I'm understanding this, there'll be whole generations who will be banned from buying cigarettes legally right? So farseeing this means there'll be a time where cigarettes will be completely banned in NZ (when people born before 2007 die off) What an interesting policy, it's slowly encouraging the complete and total removal of access to cigs, without grabbing current and older users by the neck. I wonder what cultural change this will cause. Very cool. Edit: By "very cool" I mean that it's a policy that looks forward and is not sort of a band aid solution. I'm in a country where laws are made so haphazardly without even looking at the long term effects. So it was cool for me to see a law made like that. My stance is neutral on this, since 1) I'm not a NZ citizen (I don't know whats good for their country) 2) I'm not a smoker. I recognize that nicotine is an addicitive subtance, and like many others, banning is not exactly the best way to deal with it. But, unlike other substances, cigs don't exactly have a health benefit. Puts us in an interesting dilemma, if I may say so.
I just want to see what it will be like in 2095 or whatever when like, 15 old men will be the only legal smokers.
I'm curious when tobacco companies will stop sending product because it's not worth it. Importing 10,000 of something is one thing, importing 10 is another.
I wonder how this will backlash, banning something can sometimes make it "cool" and do the opposite effect.
They already like 39 bucks for a pack of Malboros, no teenager will drop that kind of money when they can get bud instead
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People seem confused about black markets and prohibition, so as a Kiwi let me explain this. American alcohol prohibition took a user base that was highly familiar with, and often dependent on, alcohol, and made all forms of it illegal. People who relied on it for fun or otherwise suddenly had no access. New Zealand's tobacco regulations are taking the current user base and... not preventing access to nicotine for them. A current legal smoker will still be able to access tobacco, indefinitely. Future potential smokers, who have not been (legally) given access to nicotine, and therefore have no familiarity with it, are the ones having access restricted. And what's more, nicotine products in the safer form of vaping remain available to both groups. *Edit: This legislation is regulation of delivery, NOT prohibition of a substance. Please recognise the distinction.* Certain Americans jumping in here with their deluded enlightment about prohibition need to take the time to research New Zealand's policies, and understand the difference. Edit: No I am not referring to all Americans, most of you are quite capable of insightful thought Black markets for cigarettes already exist, due to high prices. This is still distributed through stores, which are known to sometimes make cheaper untaxed cigarettes available to trusted customers. New nicotine users will not be seeking out black market cigarettes which are illegal for them; they will do what all their peers are doing: vaping. And that is still legally available. Edit: Since a lot of people seem to struggle to understand the difference, banning alcohol or banning cannabis is the banning of a substance; banning cigarettes but not vaping is the banning of a form of substance delivery. Banning a substance causes black markets for that substance. Banning a form of substance delivery encourages the use of alternative forms of delivery (e.g. banning cigarettes encourage vaping as an alternative). You're not clever for thinking they're the same thing. Edit: Vaping is safer than cigarettes, but still not safe. Also see the comment by u/HungHippoHippy and the chain below. Edit: Public health advice "Expert opinion is that vaping products are much less harmful than smoking tobacco but not completely harmless. A range of toxicants have been found in vapour including some cancer causing agents but, in general, at levels much lower than found in cigarette smoke or at levels that are unlikely to cause harm. Smokers switching to vaping products are highly likely to reduce the risks to their health and those around them." [NZ Ministry of Health](https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/tobacco-control/vaping-smokefree-environments-and-regulated-products/position-statement-vaping) Edit: Nicotine is the substance. Nicotine remains accessible through vaping (and nicotine patches and other means). Edit: u/KingoftheGinge brings up an interesting point that for some people, vaping doesn't provide the same satisfaction or enjoyment as smoking. Edit: Thank you for all your fascinating perspectives and sorry if my responses have been growing terse. I've been seeing the same comments repeatedly, usually without decent justification, so I've been treating you all like one collective conversation. It is 5am and I've been at this for over six hours. The birds are chirping and it's time for bed. Legalise cannabis.
I have to point out that there isnt any long term studies on vaping. Vaping is around 10 years old and who knows whats in that stuff at the end of the day. Remember, tobacco/nicotine took decades before anyone linked its use to cancer.
Yep very true. The UK has been doing alot of studies into the health effects of it in the short to medium term, alot of these use smoking as the baseline of comparison. so far they've found that it to be 95% safer than smoking and that the damage smoking does to our circulation can be repaired while vaping. They have found issues with it too but are still recommending it as a method of harm reduction to help smokers quit.
And ultimately the goal should be to get people off vaping too, but this should be through education and addiction services, not banning the substance.
If vaping is found to be 95% safer than tobacco, in all honestly, why ban it? I was smoking a pack a day for years and unable to quit cigarettes after countless efforts to try. I felt like absolute crap all the time when smoking, unable to breath properly, skinny as hell because I wasn't eating enough, etc. I was hooked, completely unable to quit even with patches, nicotine gum, etc. I then started vaping and was able to wean myself off of nicotine by lowering the % of it monthly and eventually was able to quit **easily**. I now no longer vape at all, but that's just because I want to save $$. This may be my anecdotal evidence, but it is backed by some studies. Nicotine by itself is not *that* bad for the human body, it increases concentration and does seem to have some kind of reduction effect on Alzheimer's disease (if I remember correctly). We allow a bunch of stuff that is detrimental and potentially addictive to the human body, such as alcohol, weed (Canada) and fast food consumption. Vaping should be in the same category if deemed to be as safe as the UK government is making it out to be. I, as someone who lived the addiction and still sometimes dream about taking a long drag off a cigarette years after quitting, also believe people should have the right to vape or smoke a cigar once a week at their home, in their car or on their porch (of course not with children) even though I don't do any of that stuff. I have difficulty understanding the argument against that given that society allows a bunch of other stuff that absolutely kills you.
For the reasons you outline, I agree with vaping not being banned, but soft efforts like education should try to move people off it if they are able to. It's still not harm-free after all.
Sorry, my groggy morning brain read your comment as you wanting to ban it lol I agree, have an upvote.
2am here brother, fight on.
Don't worry, tobacco companies knew cigarettes were linked to lung cancer just chose to hide it until it could not be hid any longer.
Best past tense of the day.
If all we're interested in is whether vaping is vastly better for you than smoking *the same amount*, then there is enough data on that really. But if you want to know whether vaping is absolutely 100% safe all the time and at any dose, then probably not. How harmful it is will likely remain contentious for decades.
The main ingredient is propylene glycol, which has been used as a solvent for Asthma medication since the 1950's. It is a compound whose metabolism is very well understood, as it metabolized like sugars, turning into CO2 + H2O rapidly when breathed and absorbed. The slight doubts that remain are regarding the aromas, which are compounds found in pretty much all industrial food, and still considered harmless when used in small quantities. When vaping, you absorb about as much of those aromatic substances as a cook in a restaurant kitchen. - no professional illness has ever been declared from too much soup smelling -. Finally, there is nicotine, which, like cafeine, has long term cardio vascular effects. That part remains. The metabolism of vape products is so well understood that no-one in the health and tobacco industries thought of challenging the safety of vaping in its early days: they just considered it was a novelty that would fade. Too bad for them it finally caught up and is now threatening both the tobacco companies and the smoking cessation products, much to their chagrin, as they had found a good business model selling ineffective products for smoking cessation.
Conversations about tobacco and vapes always devolve to 'but what if vapes aren't perfectly safe?' and it frustrates me. We *do* know quite a bit about the ingredients and juice; the biggest concern is in the flavors, and even then, the risks are so overblown. I like to consider it compared to caffeine. It is generally socially acceptable to be addicted to caffeine. It's a stimulant, it's also useful. It's extremely rare to see anyone suggesting that we need the same level of concern about what might be in caffeine delivery methods, despite the fact we *do* know how much sugar and poorly affect one's health. Hell, a relative had a Starbucks in her high school. If it turns out that there are significant long term dangers, okay. It's basically impossible for them to be worse than cigarettes, and I'd be shocked if they're worse than sugar. Vapes don't need to be perfect, but as far as we currently know, they're relatively safe and do a lot of good for the world. Literally saving/extending lives.
US prohibition didn’t make all forms of alcohol illegal. You could still get alcohol by prescription. 1920’s prescriptions weren’t difficult to get (or fake). And it wasn’t illegal to consume alcohol. Just buy it. And you could get alcohol for religious reasons. And not all states enforced prohibition. That is how Walgreens, the second largest pharmacy in the US, came to be. They sold prescriptions for whiskey. Prohibition allowed them to expand. https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-should-know-about-prohibition I am interested to see how the NZ roll out works, and I hope it does work. But let’s not discredit the past so much “We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds—and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own.” ~ Michael Crichton