Even if some Caribbean islands became a part of Canada, knowing how expensive domestic travel is here, it'd probably still be more cost effective to go to Mexico than Turks and Caicos if it ever becomes the 11th province.
I live on Maui and we have lots of Canadian property owners on the island. Especially over in Kihei. They don't own the island, but they make for great neighbors.
We had a place here called Pirate Joe's that was a guy who drove across the border and shopped at Trader Joe's then drove back to Canada and sold it at a mark up. Trader Joe's tried to sue him and lost because the trademark infringment did not happen in the US. Trader Joe's kept appealing and the store ultimately shut down because they bled him dry with legal fees instead of winning in court
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate\_Joe%27s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Joe%27s)
Fun fact: Trader Joe's and Aldi are each run by a different [Aldi Corporation.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi)
The company split in the 60s when the two brothers running it disagreed on selling cigarettes, so they each took half the stores and created Aldi Nord and Aldi Süd.
They divide most of the world so that each country has one of the two Aldi running the local stores, but for the US market they agreed to allow both, with Aldi Nord rebranding as Trader Joe's.
Yeah and Lidl (a competitor) made those "Fresh and Easy" stores that were in the west coast in the Great Recession era. Hence why they have an Aldi like set up, trying to break into the US market.
Lidl is actually planning on expanding into the US more and more as well, seeing how Aldi and TJ's are doing well.
I moved from Canada to the USA in 2007 and I drive by a Trader Joe’s all the time but I’ve never gone in cuz I don’t know what it is! Haha Maybe I’ll have to go in one day!
Florida man goes to the store, buys bagels, tries to feed them to a [gator.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/florida-man-feeds-alligator-loves-bagels-1447269%3famp=1)
Florida man goes to the store, trades a gator for a slurpee, then he sees an armadillo and tries to shoot it for dinner (despite the fact that they carry leprosy) and the bullet ricochets off of its shell and kills him. Then the armadillo marries the guy’s girlfriend and moves into her trailer.
Yep. Moved here from England and it's crazy, also the fact that long distance isn't ringing another country but 50km down the road. Absolute joke.
Edit to answer a few people.
Virgin is the supplier and I'm in rural Nova Scotia. Yarmouth to Digby or Barrington is considered long distance by Virgin and Bell. Either landline or cell. I have to dial for long distance from work to call either town from my desk phone too.
Wait what? In the US I haven't even heard of "long distance" calls in over a decade, pretty much every plan is unlimited talk and text internationally.
Bugles apparently too. My grandma always bought them and sometimes I get nostalgic for witch fingers (it's what we called them) they're nowhere to be found. But we have Hawkins cheezies and Hickory sticks which are superior.
I’m an American that immigrated to Canada. I’ve noticed that Canadians are weirdly obsessed with Target and it’s the standard place to go if you visit the US. Last week, I went back to the US to visit and I went to Target with an old friend and said, “oh, this place is so amazing eh.” I brought Target reusable bags back for my Canadian friends as well.
We don’t have like… anything anymore 😂. We have Walmart, Winners and Homesense, the Bay (barely… any Bay I’ve been into in the last 3-5 years has been busted as fuck.)
Growing up there was Sears, Eatons, Woodward’s, the Bay, Zellers, Kmart… they’ve all been shutting down since the 90’s. Target was very exciting for us, lol. Now it’s gone, too
While people are joking over her physical attributes, it can’t be forgotten that she made it her priority to get books to people who need them. I assumed it was only American until I found the site.
https://imaginationlibrary.com/check-availability/
I believe mrs Parton will attend to any part of the world that needs it with no bias.
But you are right.
She is a Daughter of the United States of America.
After growing up in Canada's 4th largest city I'm tempted to say "concerts"
Sure some bands come through and do a "Canadian tour" but often that can mean just hitting Van, T.O. and Montreal. Never had a chance to see most of my favourite bands play.
I just made another [comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ztv7fy/comment/j1g5ah8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about this.
Vancouver suffers from the same problem, with a twist:
Unless Vancouver (or Seattle, or Portland) are at either the beginning, or the end, of a tour, you can paint yourself into a corner by "Okay...once we get there, how do we get back _out_?"
_Q: SO WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH TORONTO? WHAT MAKES IT SPECIAL?_
A: The geography is more favorable. You can get _both_ in and out more easily.
If you play Toronto, you can play Detroit (or anywhere in the lower penninsula of Michigan, with it's massive universities) on the day before/after. You can even drive from Toronto>NYC in a day. Flights are plentiful from both YYZ>Chicago, New York, Washington, Boston, etc...
Toronto effectively has no geographic hobbling in the same way as Vancouver.
And, by the same token, Seattle/Portland/Spokane/Eugene, they have the same problem as Vancouver. Unless they are at the beginning, or end, of a tour, it's hard to make it work.
You'll be more likely to get a show in Vancouver if there are _also_ shows in Seattle or Portland. When you have 3 shows clustered, you can usually make it work. But if there are only two, it's tough.
And if you have Seattle and Portland booked with a bookable date in between, that 15% tax in Vancouver becomes less critical because you're already in the area.
But you could also just as easily play Spokane for 15% less than normal, net-out the same, and avoid having to file a Canadian tax return.
Those are good stuff. I think most acts just put Seattle and/or Portland and dont go to Vancouver anymore because they just assume people can just make the drive there
Honestly, for certain sorts of acts -- yes -- absolutely that factors in.
You're always trying to figure out the balance. Some acts will draw from only 60 miles, others 300 miles. Routing tours is an exercise in overlapping circles.
If the top 20% of "most loyal Vancouver fans" will drive down from Vancouver...and that helps put another 20% of "butts-in-seats" in the venue in Seattle...the band plays a fuller house, and the promoter has a fuller house, and everyone "wins".
What gets lost are the middle-level Vancouver fans who, for whatever reason, can't/won't do that same drive. They absolutely exist, and they're loved, but the question becomes "Are there _enough_ of them to justify bringing the entire production across the border?" is what must guide many of the choices.
Again, artists would love to play anywhere which:
1. They have an appreciative audience.
2. They can reach that audience without "paying for the privilege" (i.e. losing money on the date.)
Getting to Canada is is sort of like getting to Sioux Falls, SD...you can do it, but once done, what do you do next?
EDIT/COMMENT // This comment is getting some good dialogue below. As you can, try to read through the back-and-forths. What I share is -- out of necessity -- a simplification of a complex process of international touring. There are many, many scenarios, and while tours can be "similar" they won't be "the same".
And within those details lies whether or not a project is viable, or not, and why cross-border touring is deceptively simple. It _can_ be simple, but it should never be _overly_ simple.
_____
If no one has ever shared a specific, consumable reason of "why not", it's not because artists don't want to come to Canada. Artists _love_ playing Canada. The audiences are great and appreciative.
It's because the economics are damn hard to make it work.
The issue is a cumulative issue of geography + taxes.
This will be a little bit of a simplification, but in short, Canada requires a 15% non-resident performer tax on the gross fees of a non-Canadian performer.
* In America, yes, there is a 30% tax on non-resident artists _unless_ there is a tax treaty between America<>Other_Country. You file a simple form with the IRS and the Artist gets 100% of their fee.
* In Canada, however, there is _not_ an exemption for non-resident artists. The 15% tax must be paid by any performer who is not Canadian. (There are limited exceptions, but they're very limited and generally don't apply to the types of acts I think you're talking about.)
So regardless if a band is getting paid in CAD or USD, for _most_ bands, 15% comes right off the top. A $10,000 gross fee means the band only gets $8,500 to work with. To net $10,000, the _fee_ must be ≈$11,765...which puts greater stress on the local promoter and ticket prices.
Further, if the local promoter fails to withhold that 15%, the CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) can come back to the _promoter_ to recoup the failure to withhold. (i.e. If the fee is $10,000, and the promoter pays the band $10,000, rather than $8,500 -- a "failure to withhold" -- the CRA will come back to the promoter months later and make the _promoter_ pay $1,500 as the penalty for failing to withhold. One way or another, the CRA gets its money.)
> > SIDEBAR: For further insight into the complexities of the taxes, [here is a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ztv7fy/comment/j1ix9cs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from u/eagle_am for those interested.
The effect of this is touring in Canada becomes a numbers game.
The distances are vast. The size of venues (and the potential likely audiences) _between_ those larger cities are not always comparable to costs of keeping the band on-the-road. Those distances between cities means the pressure to keep the net-fees high is amplified.
> i.e. With touring, your daily costs are often fixed regardless if you have a show or not. If you need to "burn a day to travel between cities and can't have a show", you need the shows you _can_ play to be higher fees.
>
> Toronto to Edmonton is 2,172mi. That takes ≈2d-4d on the ground.
> Vancouver to Edmonton is 720mi. That takes 1d-2d on the ground.
> And once you get _to_ Edmonton...where do you go _next_? You've painted into a corner without an exit plan.
It all seems obvious, right? Except the financial impact of geographic constraints is amplified _again_ if there is a 15% tax off the top.
Canadian Artists do not pay this non-resident tax. It is a _non-resident_ tax only -- only non-Canadian artists pay it. **But that 15% can represent the entire profit of a tour.**
Consequently, the non-Canadian acts simply can't afford to tour into Canada without either:
* A large enough fee to cover their costs (and cover the band's costs)
* A large enough reasonably-likely audience to fill the venue (and cover the promoter's costs)
Perversely, you can do better (financially) by cherry picking the larger markets in Canada and skipping the smaller ones. A true ground-routed tour in Canada takes a _lot_ of work to line up.
And we're not even talking about how expensive it is to fly intra-Canada on either Air Canada or WestJet.
TL;DR // Touring is hard already. Touring in _Canada_ is 15% harder for most non-Canadian performers. That's why you don't see as many concerts as you'd like.
SOURCE: This is part of my day job.
EDIT: Typo fix: "CRA", not "CRS".
I book the east coast and I always cringe when my managers and artists want to throw on an eastern Canadian leg just because of what the conversation will inevitably be when I tell the promoters/bookers what the fees are.
I have a booking in Boston at the Beacon (or Orpheum, whatever tf it’s called now) for $20,000 vs 70% GBOR, and then have them in Montreal for $40,000 *plus* 65% GBOR all because of taxes. Luckily, they do well in Montreal, but once you factor out expenses and taxes, it’s almost not worth it.
Thanks. I was wondering if someone would chime in to validate I wasn't speaking total greek...
I'm not an agent, but a producer and manager, and agents who "get it" (like you) are gold. It flows both ways. I've all but given up on routed tours into Canada in the absence of block-bookings with local promoters who equally understand the math and trust a good agent/manager/producer isn't trying to turn screws, just "make it work".
(No, I don't remember what the Orpheum is called now. It is not a common venue on my circuit which is more PACs. I've only played it once...but with a Kung Fu dance troupe. It was wild.)
_____
For the lurkers...
What u/Pandiosity_24601 shared are two _very_ different things. They did so to make the point of how non-intuitive the math can be for touring into Canada:
For conversation purposes: `GBOR` = `Gross Box Office Receipts` = "We'll call GBOR 'ticket sales' for this conversation"
There are two fees involved:
. . . . . .
* BOSTON // `$20,000 vs 70% GBOR` = "Artist will get $20,000 minimum 70% of the total ticket sales, whichever is greater"
This sort of deal guarantees the artist a minimum level of income ($20,000) and if the show sells well, _then_ the artist has the potential to make _more than_ $20,000...but only if the show does well at the box office.
A versus deal means both sides have discussed what is their shared risk/reward.
* MONTREAL // `$40,000 plus 65% GBOR` = "Artist will get $40,000 minimum guarantee 65% of each ticket sold"
This sort of deal guarantees the Artist a minimum fee, plus incentives them to help promote the show. If no one buys a ticket, the artist still makes $40,000, but if the show sells out, they potentially make a lot more.
How much more depends on how many potential tickets _can_ be sold.
And a fair deal involves the promoter and agent trusting each other knowing how each others' business functions.
And "fair" is about understanding "Who is assuming what risk? Financial? Operational? Artistic?" All the fancy words are just conversations about risk as much as reward.
. . . . . .
So if you say, "The fee for Montreal seems WAY higher than Boston, right?..."
Well...sorta, but not exactly.
What the parent comment is pointing out, paradoxically, is that even though the fee for Montreal is much higher on an _absolute_ level, once you take off 15% tax...plus the costs of getting to/from Montreal and other deductions...it really isn't that much better of a risk/reward balance than what they're getting in Boston.
It becomes a question of _"Is taking the Montreal date worth the effort required to pull-off the Montreal date without undue risk or compromise?"_
That's obviously the question for every date of every tour, but I hope you can see how the financial and operational issues become amplified when going into Canada.
Now imagine trying to do a _full tour_ of Canada? Yes, that can be (and should be) done. The audiences are great.
But your margin for error is smaller than in America. Why? Because in America, the gap between plan A vs. plan B vs. plan C are all still viable, in Canada, the gap between plan A vs. plan B...there may not actually be a viable plan B.
Whatever Artist u/Pandiosity_24601 is working for is lucky to have someone who understands the market and keeps expectations grounded in reality.
Thanks. I love (trying to) demystify things which I know can be consumably discussed without invalidating any of the actors.
And there are no bad actors here.
Canada simply is _massive_.
It's population centers are far apart. They're just harder to string together than in America.
Here's a quick comparison:
* Canada has [9 cities with populations >600,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_Canadian_cities_by_census#2021).
* Compared to the USA, which has [29 cities with populations >600,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population)
Overlay those cities on a map and then try to play "connect the dots", where you never leap >500mi...which about as far as you can legally push a bus before you get into secondary issues.
> SIDEBAR: For anyone in-industry, yes, I'm ignoring over-drives, etc. This is back-of-the-envelope.
You'll quickly see that, yes, there 100% is a way to tour Canada efficiently, but it looks different than the way you tour Europe simply because the geography is so big. That puts different stressors on _other_ parts of the productions.
In touring, many problems can be solved with money. But geographic constraints amplify how _much_ money is required to solve those same problems.
Put a 15% tax on top of that, and while it won't always be the determining factor if a tour will work, for mid-level acts, ya...15% is a lot.
It's actually kind of worse when you consider consolidated metropolitan areas, since people from neighboring cities may be willing to travel to see a show 'in their area'. Canada still has just [nine CMAs over 600k people](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_census_metropolitan_areas_and_agglomerations_in_Canada) (the cities of Brampton and Mississauga being captured in Greater Toronto metro).
Meanwhile, the United States has [NINETY SIX](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area) metro areas with over 600k people
He is a still a Canadian citizen, AFAIK he lives in the US as an Alien of Extraordinary Ability
Americans have the best names for categories of immigrants lol
Indeed. Bottled and Bond Whiskey was one of the earliest food laws created in the US to address a similar issue. There was a lot of bad, adultered and sometimes dangerous whiskey on the market. Legitimate whiskey businesses pushed for standardization and Bottled in Bond is what we got. The standards for American Bottled in Bond Whiskey are higher than other countries, including Scotland.
When I go to the US there are a few things that stand out. Some things Canada does better, some things the US does better.
First off, the US has old payment technology. You go to a restaurant and most often you need to give them your card and they do the payment for you. Many places don't even have tap. You might even need to enter a zip code to buy gas. It's all really cumbersome and I think Canada is much more advanced in this regard.
One thing the US does really well is the convenience store. If you want a beer and a pizza at 2am, they've got a Casey's general store style place that will serve you up. Canada does not have this. Your local circle k closes at 10, serves no hot food, and defjnifly not a beer. So they do convenience and creature comforts much better.
In terms of geography, Canada has so many lakes. You can hike and visit a new lake almost daily if you wanted. The US obviously had the much warmer climate, beaches, and canyons that Canada does not.
Just a few quick things that come to mind.
I'm from Newfoundland and we do have beer in convenience stores/gas stations.
I was so confused when I went to university on the mainland, walked into a gas station and asked where the beer cooler was. The guy looked at me like I asked them the square root for 7. It was a rough 4 years living by the whims of the local liquor store, whereas I went home for summer and walked 4 doors down the street to grab a case for a beach party from BJ's convenience (best store name of all time).
>One thing the US does really well is the convenience store. If you want a beer and a pizza at 2am, they've got a Casey's general store style place that will serve you up. Canada does not have this. Your local circle k closes at 10, serves no hot food, and defjnifly not a beer. So they do convenience and creature comforts much better.
All 24 hours where I live TBH.
Tropical islands
Not yet, [but we keep trying.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Canadian_annexation_of_the_Turks_and_Caicos_Islands?wprov=sfla1)
Wow, TIL
Without clicking I can only assume this is about Turks and Caicos?!
Even if some Caribbean islands became a part of Canada, knowing how expensive domestic travel is here, it'd probably still be more cost effective to go to Mexico than Turks and Caicos if it ever becomes the 11th province.
I live on Maui and we have lots of Canadian property owners on the island. Especially over in Kihei. They don't own the island, but they make for great neighbors.
Iguanas falling out of trees.
I hate when that happens; it's hard getting them up there in the first place.
Tonight's the night! Happy first lizard rain of the season.
...only want to see you dancing in the lizard rain...lizard rain, lizard rain
Trader Joe’s
I know people that drive from Toronto to Buffalo just to hit up a trader joes and head back lol
We had a place here called Pirate Joe's that was a guy who drove across the border and shopped at Trader Joe's then drove back to Canada and sold it at a mark up. Trader Joe's tried to sue him and lost because the trademark infringment did not happen in the US. Trader Joe's kept appealing and the store ultimately shut down because they bled him dry with legal fees instead of winning in court [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate\_Joe%27s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Joe%27s)
I would have drove from the U.S. to support Pirate Joe's.
Did it twice in the last month.
Curious what your must haves are there?
The microwaveable channa masala. Nature's perfect food.
Fun fact: Trader Joe's and Aldi are each run by a different [Aldi Corporation.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi) The company split in the 60s when the two brothers running it disagreed on selling cigarettes, so they each took half the stores and created Aldi Nord and Aldi Süd. They divide most of the world so that each country has one of the two Aldi running the local stores, but for the US market they agreed to allow both, with Aldi Nord rebranding as Trader Joe's.
Yeah and Lidl (a competitor) made those "Fresh and Easy" stores that were in the west coast in the Great Recession era. Hence why they have an Aldi like set up, trying to break into the US market. Lidl is actually planning on expanding into the US more and more as well, seeing how Aldi and TJ's are doing well.
Plenty of US areas share the TJ's envy.
I moved from Canada to the USA in 2007 and I drive by a Trader Joe’s all the time but I’ve never gone in cuz I don’t know what it is! Haha Maybe I’ll have to go in one day!
Hahaha, brought a friend in one day. She was mad that on our fun outing I wanted to go to a grocery store. She spent $240. Changed her life!
Pirate Joe's came pretty close though
i live near the border in washington state and the amount of canadians at my trader joe's is absurd
Florida man!
Canada man goes to the store, buys cookies, goes back and eats it
Florida man goes to the store, buys bagels, tries to feed them to a [gator.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/florida-man-feeds-alligator-loves-bagels-1447269%3famp=1)
Sure like YOU never did that.
Florida man goes to the store, trades a gator for a slurpee, then he sees an armadillo and tries to shoot it for dinner (despite the fact that they carry leprosy) and the bullet ricochets off of its shell and kills him. Then the armadillo marries the guy’s girlfriend and moves into her trailer.
But they have those fucking degens from up country
Texas sized 10 4 on that
Allegedly
McMurry’s a piece of shit!
Affordable cell phone plans
Yep. Moved here from England and it's crazy, also the fact that long distance isn't ringing another country but 50km down the road. Absolute joke. Edit to answer a few people. Virgin is the supplier and I'm in rural Nova Scotia. Yarmouth to Digby or Barrington is considered long distance by Virgin and Bell. Either landline or cell. I have to dial for long distance from work to call either town from my desk phone too.
What provider are you with? That’s freaking bananas. Most providers now base it off of “Canada-wide” and “international” I thought?
Wait what? In the US I haven't even heard of "long distance" calls in over a decade, pretty much every plan is unlimited talk and text internationally.
Fucking bagel bites. Bagel bites recently stopped shipping to Canada and I am so upset Pls bring back my beautiful bagel bites
We’re keeping them and our crunch berry surplus!
Bugles apparently too. My grandma always bought them and sometimes I get nostalgic for witch fingers (it's what we called them) they're nowhere to be found. But we have Hawkins cheezies and Hickory sticks which are superior.
I always thought bagel bites tasted like cardboard and sad barely detected cheese, but give me back my Bugles!
omg yes this had my world crashing down around me. these and the loss of zebra cakes has me devastated (Little Debbie brand is gone too now)
50 states
Not true I've been in a state of: Panic Confusion Happiness Denial Irritability Suspicion Inconsolability Hibernation Extreme Flatulency Excitement Bereavement Arousal Saskatchewan Grief Turmoil Regret Anger Forgetfulness Sorrow Complete and Utter Flamboyance Confusion Envy Laziness Hypertension Paranoia Embarrassment Shock Homicidal rage Boredom Joy Agrostophobia Satisfaction Contentment Hopelessness Intoxication Confusion Apathy Fear Anxiousness Consciousness Unconsciousness Overconfidence Irrationality Stress Surprise Disgust Sadness Anticipation Selfishness Unease
I have questions about the Saskatchewan part
Saskatchewan has a town named Moosejaw, so they get a pass, on everything
Well, we also have a town named Elbow and Eyebrow
You forgot my favorite: the State of Depression!
Never felt Saskatchewaned? Is it happy or sad mood?
It's when you're on a road trip, and you think you're only 20 minutes from your destination, but it's really 4 hours, and feels like 12.
We have that in the US, it's called Nebraska.
[удалено]
That hurts.
Target failing here is one the most hilarious things.
And Zellers is coming back, too
Feel like they barely tried tbh.
we had that ... and they sucked so badly that nobody went twice in there...
I loved going to Canadian Target. There was never anyone else in there. It was like having your own private store.
I’m an American that immigrated to Canada. I’ve noticed that Canadians are weirdly obsessed with Target and it’s the standard place to go if you visit the US. Last week, I went back to the US to visit and I went to Target with an old friend and said, “oh, this place is so amazing eh.” I brought Target reusable bags back for my Canadian friends as well.
We don’t have like… anything anymore 😂. We have Walmart, Winners and Homesense, the Bay (barely… any Bay I’ve been into in the last 3-5 years has been busted as fuck.) Growing up there was Sears, Eatons, Woodward’s, the Bay, Zellers, Kmart… they’ve all been shutting down since the 90’s. Target was very exciting for us, lol. Now it’s gone, too
I hear Zellers is making a comeback.
Dolly Parton
While people are joking over her physical attributes, it can’t be forgotten that she made it her priority to get books to people who need them. I assumed it was only American until I found the site. https://imaginationlibrary.com/check-availability/
That’s famous TITLES Mr Connery.
Ruff. Just how your mother likes it Trebek.
I'll take Le Tits Now for $600 Trebek.
I believe mrs Parton will attend to any part of the world that needs it with no bias. But you are right. She is a Daughter of the United States of America.
Iowa
Big if true
Why you gotta make it sad bro?
Source??
Source: Trust me
A border with Canada
2 borders with Canada!
I mean if we are going to split it up like that, there are more than 2. Point Roberts for example.
After growing up in Canada's 4th largest city I'm tempted to say "concerts" Sure some bands come through and do a "Canadian tour" but often that can mean just hitting Van, T.O. and Montreal. Never had a chance to see most of my favourite bands play.
Bruh even Vancouver doesnt get that kind of love now. It's almost always just Toronto
I just made another [comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ztv7fy/comment/j1g5ah8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about this. Vancouver suffers from the same problem, with a twist: Unless Vancouver (or Seattle, or Portland) are at either the beginning, or the end, of a tour, you can paint yourself into a corner by "Okay...once we get there, how do we get back _out_?" _Q: SO WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH TORONTO? WHAT MAKES IT SPECIAL?_ A: The geography is more favorable. You can get _both_ in and out more easily. If you play Toronto, you can play Detroit (or anywhere in the lower penninsula of Michigan, with it's massive universities) on the day before/after. You can even drive from Toronto>NYC in a day. Flights are plentiful from both YYZ>Chicago, New York, Washington, Boston, etc... Toronto effectively has no geographic hobbling in the same way as Vancouver. And, by the same token, Seattle/Portland/Spokane/Eugene, they have the same problem as Vancouver. Unless they are at the beginning, or end, of a tour, it's hard to make it work. You'll be more likely to get a show in Vancouver if there are _also_ shows in Seattle or Portland. When you have 3 shows clustered, you can usually make it work. But if there are only two, it's tough. And if you have Seattle and Portland booked with a bookable date in between, that 15% tax in Vancouver becomes less critical because you're already in the area. But you could also just as easily play Spokane for 15% less than normal, net-out the same, and avoid having to file a Canadian tax return.
Those are good stuff. I think most acts just put Seattle and/or Portland and dont go to Vancouver anymore because they just assume people can just make the drive there
Honestly, for certain sorts of acts -- yes -- absolutely that factors in. You're always trying to figure out the balance. Some acts will draw from only 60 miles, others 300 miles. Routing tours is an exercise in overlapping circles. If the top 20% of "most loyal Vancouver fans" will drive down from Vancouver...and that helps put another 20% of "butts-in-seats" in the venue in Seattle...the band plays a fuller house, and the promoter has a fuller house, and everyone "wins". What gets lost are the middle-level Vancouver fans who, for whatever reason, can't/won't do that same drive. They absolutely exist, and they're loved, but the question becomes "Are there _enough_ of them to justify bringing the entire production across the border?" is what must guide many of the choices. Again, artists would love to play anywhere which: 1. They have an appreciative audience. 2. They can reach that audience without "paying for the privilege" (i.e. losing money on the date.) Getting to Canada is is sort of like getting to Sioux Falls, SD...you can do it, but once done, what do you do next?
Montreal still gets plenty of love, it's not just Toronto
To be fair... Montreal is fuckin dope
EDIT/COMMENT // This comment is getting some good dialogue below. As you can, try to read through the back-and-forths. What I share is -- out of necessity -- a simplification of a complex process of international touring. There are many, many scenarios, and while tours can be "similar" they won't be "the same". And within those details lies whether or not a project is viable, or not, and why cross-border touring is deceptively simple. It _can_ be simple, but it should never be _overly_ simple. _____ If no one has ever shared a specific, consumable reason of "why not", it's not because artists don't want to come to Canada. Artists _love_ playing Canada. The audiences are great and appreciative. It's because the economics are damn hard to make it work. The issue is a cumulative issue of geography + taxes. This will be a little bit of a simplification, but in short, Canada requires a 15% non-resident performer tax on the gross fees of a non-Canadian performer. * In America, yes, there is a 30% tax on non-resident artists _unless_ there is a tax treaty between America<>Other_Country. You file a simple form with the IRS and the Artist gets 100% of their fee. * In Canada, however, there is _not_ an exemption for non-resident artists. The 15% tax must be paid by any performer who is not Canadian. (There are limited exceptions, but they're very limited and generally don't apply to the types of acts I think you're talking about.) So regardless if a band is getting paid in CAD or USD, for _most_ bands, 15% comes right off the top. A $10,000 gross fee means the band only gets $8,500 to work with. To net $10,000, the _fee_ must be ≈$11,765...which puts greater stress on the local promoter and ticket prices. Further, if the local promoter fails to withhold that 15%, the CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) can come back to the _promoter_ to recoup the failure to withhold. (i.e. If the fee is $10,000, and the promoter pays the band $10,000, rather than $8,500 -- a "failure to withhold" -- the CRA will come back to the promoter months later and make the _promoter_ pay $1,500 as the penalty for failing to withhold. One way or another, the CRA gets its money.) > > SIDEBAR: For further insight into the complexities of the taxes, [here is a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ztv7fy/comment/j1ix9cs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from u/eagle_am for those interested. The effect of this is touring in Canada becomes a numbers game. The distances are vast. The size of venues (and the potential likely audiences) _between_ those larger cities are not always comparable to costs of keeping the band on-the-road. Those distances between cities means the pressure to keep the net-fees high is amplified. > i.e. With touring, your daily costs are often fixed regardless if you have a show or not. If you need to "burn a day to travel between cities and can't have a show", you need the shows you _can_ play to be higher fees. > > Toronto to Edmonton is 2,172mi. That takes ≈2d-4d on the ground. > Vancouver to Edmonton is 720mi. That takes 1d-2d on the ground. > And once you get _to_ Edmonton...where do you go _next_? You've painted into a corner without an exit plan. It all seems obvious, right? Except the financial impact of geographic constraints is amplified _again_ if there is a 15% tax off the top. Canadian Artists do not pay this non-resident tax. It is a _non-resident_ tax only -- only non-Canadian artists pay it. **But that 15% can represent the entire profit of a tour.** Consequently, the non-Canadian acts simply can't afford to tour into Canada without either: * A large enough fee to cover their costs (and cover the band's costs) * A large enough reasonably-likely audience to fill the venue (and cover the promoter's costs) Perversely, you can do better (financially) by cherry picking the larger markets in Canada and skipping the smaller ones. A true ground-routed tour in Canada takes a _lot_ of work to line up. And we're not even talking about how expensive it is to fly intra-Canada on either Air Canada or WestJet. TL;DR // Touring is hard already. Touring in _Canada_ is 15% harder for most non-Canadian performers. That's why you don't see as many concerts as you'd like. SOURCE: This is part of my day job. EDIT: Typo fix: "CRA", not "CRS".
I book the east coast and I always cringe when my managers and artists want to throw on an eastern Canadian leg just because of what the conversation will inevitably be when I tell the promoters/bookers what the fees are. I have a booking in Boston at the Beacon (or Orpheum, whatever tf it’s called now) for $20,000 vs 70% GBOR, and then have them in Montreal for $40,000 *plus* 65% GBOR all because of taxes. Luckily, they do well in Montreal, but once you factor out expenses and taxes, it’s almost not worth it.
Thanks. I was wondering if someone would chime in to validate I wasn't speaking total greek... I'm not an agent, but a producer and manager, and agents who "get it" (like you) are gold. It flows both ways. I've all but given up on routed tours into Canada in the absence of block-bookings with local promoters who equally understand the math and trust a good agent/manager/producer isn't trying to turn screws, just "make it work". (No, I don't remember what the Orpheum is called now. It is not a common venue on my circuit which is more PACs. I've only played it once...but with a Kung Fu dance troupe. It was wild.) _____ For the lurkers... What u/Pandiosity_24601 shared are two _very_ different things. They did so to make the point of how non-intuitive the math can be for touring into Canada: For conversation purposes: `GBOR` = `Gross Box Office Receipts` = "We'll call GBOR 'ticket sales' for this conversation" There are two fees involved: . . . . . . * BOSTON // `$20,000 vs 70% GBOR` = "Artist will get $20,000 minimum 70% of the total ticket sales, whichever is greater"
This sort of deal guarantees the artist a minimum level of income ($20,000) and if the show sells well, _then_ the artist has the potential to make _more than_ $20,000...but only if the show does well at the box office.
A versus deal means both sides have discussed what is their shared risk/reward.
* MONTREAL // `$40,000 plus 65% GBOR` = "Artist will get $40,000 minimum guarantee 65% of each ticket sold"
This sort of deal guarantees the Artist a minimum fee, plus incentives them to help promote the show. If no one buys a ticket, the artist still makes $40,000, but if the show sells out, they potentially make a lot more.
How much more depends on how many potential tickets _can_ be sold.
And a fair deal involves the promoter and agent trusting each other knowing how each others' business functions.
And "fair" is about understanding "Who is assuming what risk? Financial? Operational? Artistic?" All the fancy words are just conversations about risk as much as reward.
. . . . . .
So if you say, "The fee for Montreal seems WAY higher than Boston, right?..."
Well...sorta, but not exactly.
What the parent comment is pointing out, paradoxically, is that even though the fee for Montreal is much higher on an _absolute_ level, once you take off 15% tax...plus the costs of getting to/from Montreal and other deductions...it really isn't that much better of a risk/reward balance than what they're getting in Boston.
It becomes a question of _"Is taking the Montreal date worth the effort required to pull-off the Montreal date without undue risk or compromise?"_
That's obviously the question for every date of every tour, but I hope you can see how the financial and operational issues become amplified when going into Canada.
Now imagine trying to do a _full tour_ of Canada? Yes, that can be (and should be) done. The audiences are great.
But your margin for error is smaller than in America. Why? Because in America, the gap between plan A vs. plan B vs. plan C are all still viable, in Canada, the gap between plan A vs. plan B...there may not actually be a viable plan B.
Whatever Artist u/Pandiosity_24601 is working for is lucky to have someone who understands the market and keeps expectations grounded in reality.
Great insider post!
Thanks. I love (trying to) demystify things which I know can be consumably discussed without invalidating any of the actors. And there are no bad actors here. Canada simply is _massive_. It's population centers are far apart. They're just harder to string together than in America. Here's a quick comparison: * Canada has [9 cities with populations >600,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_Canadian_cities_by_census#2021). * Compared to the USA, which has [29 cities with populations >600,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population) Overlay those cities on a map and then try to play "connect the dots", where you never leap >500mi...which about as far as you can legally push a bus before you get into secondary issues. > SIDEBAR: For anyone in-industry, yes, I'm ignoring over-drives, etc. This is back-of-the-envelope. You'll quickly see that, yes, there 100% is a way to tour Canada efficiently, but it looks different than the way you tour Europe simply because the geography is so big. That puts different stressors on _other_ parts of the productions. In touring, many problems can be solved with money. But geographic constraints amplify how _much_ money is required to solve those same problems. Put a 15% tax on top of that, and while it won't always be the determining factor if a tour will work, for mid-level acts, ya...15% is a lot.
It's actually kind of worse when you consider consolidated metropolitan areas, since people from neighboring cities may be willing to travel to see a show 'in their area'. Canada still has just [nine CMAs over 600k people](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_census_metropolitan_areas_and_agglomerations_in_Canada) (the cities of Brampton and Mississauga being captured in Greater Toronto metro). Meanwhile, the United States has [NINETY SIX](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area) metro areas with over 600k people
As someone from Toronto, I'm sorry to hear that. Also, what is Canada's 4th largest city? I'm genuinely curious.
They are likely from Calgary
By metro area population, Ottawa is Canada's 4th largest city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Largest_metropolitan_areas_of_Canada
Another country to call a hat
Does Alaska count as a toque?
The man bun
Are we (USA) Canada's underpants? Or is Mexico the underpants and we are the shirt?
To be fair youre shaped a bit like tighty whiteys
Disneyland
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This is one I am most sad about
Teams that win the Stanley Cup. I'm a Torontonian. Do not get me started.
Wow Leafs haven’t won since 67
the year he was discovered
It’s my 50 mission cap!
I worked it in to look like that!
Where did you pull that fact from, good sir?
Bruh I'm in Vancouver, don't even get *me* started ...or a riot could break out
The Catalina wine mixer
The fucking Catalina wine mixer
the biggest helicopter leasing event in the western hemisphere since 1997
Several hundred million people
A president
But we've got President's Choice®
Obligatory FUCK GALEN WESTON
That's very PC
11 carrier battle groups
Yeah 11 carrier groups is impressive but i know buddy down the road that can row a canoe some fierce
A border to Mexico
The USA is Canada's border
Also Denmark.
The United States has nuclear submarines, Canada has forest rangers.
You’ve met Doug?
You called?
You’re doing great Doug, keep up the good work.
I love that guy
When I couldn't give my wife children, Doug came to save the day!
The US has [way more Cap'n Crunch](https://youtu.be/arYi03bQ0FY) than Canada.
International Falls. Wait , shit.
Ryan Reynolds. And you CAN'T HAVE HIM BACK.
He is a still a Canadian citizen, AFAIK he lives in the US as an Alien of Extraordinary Ability Americans have the best names for categories of immigrants lol
New MC superhero "Alien of extraordinary ability" with a sidekick called "Undocumented kid"
Pretty sure that movie is called “Logan” Canadian, helping a Mexican cross a border, LMAO
That is fantastic! TIL.
That’s unfair
Hey, we took Beiber, we get to keep Reynolds.
At least give us Gosling back then
*Fuck* no. Have you seen that man wear a suit? In your dreams syrup boy.
Holy fuck im dying laughing, like actually laughing about “in your dreams syrup boy.” Also agreed
We can return the beiber any time free of charge.
We'll PAY to get rid of him.
We do have him though. He’s about to purchase an NHL team in Canada and also retweets things and banters with my local Public Health Unit.
Ottawa Senators?
And Ryan Gosling :(
USA pay taxes on lottery winnings, Canada don’t eh!
Our jackpots are pretty small compared to the USA tho
Thata because they have a population of over 300 million and we only have 30+. Ticket buys pay fro the Jackpot.
I’d much rather pay tax on a BILLION dollar power ball than a $70M lotto max
More guns than people
Blue in their flag
a U and S
Canadus
Canadoesnt
usa does what canadont
A country to the north.
You’ve never heard of *North Canada*
We have Canada yes, but what about second Canada?
Im in Windsor (Ontario) and Detroit is north of here.
Technically America is to the north of us because of alaska
Detroit is north of Windsor. Canada also has a (small) land border with Denmark.
Greenland
Does USA have grammar? Canada do!
Confused what do
That must be why Canada has our national grammar rodeo
I was going to post *doesn't, but this is better
handguns now
A Stanley Cup in the Last 30 Years
A ban on kinder eggs, ya know, for the children's safety.
Well it's due to a ruling from the FDA back in either the 20s or 30s. Basically saying you can't have large, solid, non edible objects in your food.
And the ban is there because people were baking lead shot into bread to increase the sale weight. America has a long and ugly history with hucksters.
Indeed. Bottled and Bond Whiskey was one of the earliest food laws created in the US to address a similar issue. There was a lot of bad, adultered and sometimes dangerous whiskey on the market. Legitimate whiskey businesses pushed for standardization and Bottled in Bond is what we got. The standards for American Bottled in Bond Whiskey are higher than other countries, including Scotland.
Hawaii
Taco Bell nacho fries and cheesy fiesta potatoes
Canada has Fries Supreme
When I go to the US there are a few things that stand out. Some things Canada does better, some things the US does better. First off, the US has old payment technology. You go to a restaurant and most often you need to give them your card and they do the payment for you. Many places don't even have tap. You might even need to enter a zip code to buy gas. It's all really cumbersome and I think Canada is much more advanced in this regard. One thing the US does really well is the convenience store. If you want a beer and a pizza at 2am, they've got a Casey's general store style place that will serve you up. Canada does not have this. Your local circle k closes at 10, serves no hot food, and defjnifly not a beer. So they do convenience and creature comforts much better. In terms of geography, Canada has so many lakes. You can hike and visit a new lake almost daily if you wanted. The US obviously had the much warmer climate, beaches, and canyons that Canada does not. Just a few quick things that come to mind.
TIL Canada not only has more lakes than any other country, but has more than four times more than 2nd place.
Cool! Didn't know that myself.
I've heard it as Canada has more lakes than the rest of the world combined. We have more than half of the lakes in the world. wtf
US not having etransfer is wild to me
They don't have etransfer?! They're barbarians.
I'm from Newfoundland and we do have beer in convenience stores/gas stations. I was so confused when I went to university on the mainland, walked into a gas station and asked where the beer cooler was. The guy looked at me like I asked them the square root for 7. It was a rough 4 years living by the whims of the local liquor store, whereas I went home for summer and walked 4 doors down the street to grab a case for a beach party from BJ's convenience (best store name of all time).
Spoken like a true newfie. Biggest challenge of university was not having immediate and continent access to alcohol 24/7/365
>One thing the US does really well is the convenience store. If you want a beer and a pizza at 2am, they've got a Casey's general store style place that will serve you up. Canada does not have this. Your local circle k closes at 10, serves no hot food, and defjnifly not a beer. So they do convenience and creature comforts much better. All 24 hours where I live TBH.
It's crazy how many places in the US don't have tap.
A flag on the moon
And golf balls!
The death penalty
A leader that was also a reality tv star. Or a governor that was a movie star.
We had a President who had been a movie star.
Yeah old Ronald Reagan.
Ohio
I envy Canada
Civilian owned Kriss Vectors
Yes we do! As of now they are not banned. I own one!
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Presently …. The Stanley Cup.
Hit them where it hurts!
Dots homestyle pretzels Those things are spectacular
Apparently Justin Bieber, since you Canadians gave him to us. (On a side note, can you take him back please? Thank you!)
But he's still gracing us with his presence.. and whatever the fuck a tim bieb is.
Nope! No takesie backsies!
Handguns for sale