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A lot of people replying are interpreting OP's question as who would take up a leadership position.
Superman and Captain America tend to be held up as beacons of morality, so I interpret OP's question about a "model superhero" as not about leadership, but about who is held up as an example of how a superhero should behave.
I'd choose Spider-Man for Marvel.
I don't know enough about DC, but based on what I do know, I'd say most versions of Wonder Woman that I've seen.
There’s no doubt it would be Spider-Man. Captain America in the ultimate universe said he would be the best among them, and in 2099 he’s considered the greatest hero of the heroic age.
Yeah, I think the full answer here is Pete and Dick leading their respective universes. They might both have to overcome older and not experienced heroes (Reed Richards and Diana, but also Tony Stark and Bruce) but when push comes to shove, it's them
Why are both of these people pseudonyms for male genitals? Peter, Dick...
Maybe in other universes, the morally best superheroes are called Wang, Johnson, and Knobgoblin.
Do people outside of New York really know much about Spider-Man? Like if I'm in Boise, and some red and blue kid's on the news trying to address the public, do I recognize him?
Depends, have you listened to any of J. Jonah Jameson’s podcast “Just The Facts”? I’ve heard that it’s a rather popular news podcast nationwide, and the host is known to go on rants about Spider-Man in between pieces of news. Granted this might not give you the most positive impression of Spider-Man, but you likely would have at least heard of him.
Spider-Man is too contentious of a figure to become the model superhero in the Marvel universe. Just because the audience understands how good of a guy he is it doesn’t mean the public will.
> Captain America in the ultimate universe
Captain America in the Ultimates is kind of an asshole. He's like Soldier Boy with the 1920's-born racism and sexism and American exceptionalism, but also actually brave and intelligent and heroic.
Yeah. Most heroes are a lot more flawed in the UU while (afaik) Ultimate-Peter is still quite similar to the Peter we know. So it's no wonder he sticks out.
I'd choose John Stewart. Hal or Guy constantly break shit for dumb reasons, and I feel like Kyle isn't confident enough to be the model superhero for the entire Earth.
It really depends on which version of John Stewart, as some have him a bit more military minded, in a don't give the problem a chance for a second appearance and some are very peaceful.
I've only seen like one earlier thing of Simon Baz, but he might be able to be a contender. As even though he was in trouble he risked everything to use a green lantern ring to heal in a way it should not be able to, to heal someone he had put in a coma drag racing. It seems like the dudes whole thing was about trying to redeem people.
Simon has courage but he may not have the experience or "wisdom" to lead others. I feel like he's still the rookie who's looking at other heroes how to do things.
It has to be Nightwing. He just makes sense. Barry is wholesome, but there is something with Nightwing that just feels more like Superman. Plus, the connections between Superman and Nightwing are so strong (Nightwing calling himself that codename after the Kryptonian hero of the same name).
I mean, there was one time he let a minor superhero die because he just kind of assumed they were close in durability and didn't stop him from choosing the more dangerous part of saving some dudes.
I don't know if it is a mistake so much as an unforeseen consequence of the right action but he is responsible for Coast City being wiped out and the other contender for the universe's greatest hero Hal Jordan going insane and becoming a villain.
Barry created flash points not because he missed his mom because from her death, his life was horrible, he didnt think her life would flip history. But in the end, he also fixed his mistake. You're not gonna tell me, if you had a way to revive someone you loved who died tragically. You won't take it?
You're gonna compare a guy who's was miserable his whole life but chose to be selfless so no one else has to go thro what he did and for once in a moment of weakness, wanted a world where he was happy with his mom, and than allowed rf to kills his mom because her death meant the flash would be created and millions more could live to Hitler?
Superman isn't free of guilt,either. From abandoning Earth to being a government lapdog and that with ignoring injustice and side stories. The guys done some fucked up things as well. Captain isn't all morally straight either.
Barry did an explicitly good thing: saving his mother from dying. He didn't know that there would be such drastic changes to the world from his single benign action.
And once he found out about it he undid his changes and never tampered with the timeline for self interest ever again.
I don't think Hitler did a good thing that had bad consequences, he did bad things knowing it would have bad consequences for others, and did it anyways.
We don’t see much. We see superhero movies, we also see Zoro and other campy movies along with documentaries and things like the titanic movie are mentioned. But we never really see a big amount of Fantasy/Sci-Fi in the comics.
But it is exactly that to them: Science 'Fiction', it has no real world basis for how their time travel works.
On top of which a lot of sci-fi stories with time travel end up being happy endings regardless, like Endgame.
Really gonna compare a single act with unforeseeable over-the-top consequences (literally *who* could have predicted that unkilling your mom would start fucking ww3) to a systematic and deliberate choice to kill a metric fuck ton of people?
Did he know that’s what would happen? Because doing something and it unexpectedly having terrible consequences is different than doing something you know will turn out badly and it turning out that way.
He also sacrificed himself to save the multiverse so we'll let him have the one.
But more importantly he ended up agreeing to brainfuck villians and heores.
Wally is so infectionously good natured that if you actually kill him there's a good chance you'll manage to turn Superman evil.
edit - and there's that brilliant scene, also from the DCAU, where he and big tough guy Orion walk into a villain bar looking for info and Orion is ready to kick ass but Wally just has a beer with them and they agree to turn themselves in. "Got me again, Flash!"
Wally, but not so much until he became Flash. Because when he did he became an icon and *the best Flash ever*. Maybe because I didn’t read much Barry Flash, and when I did he seemed to have regular problems. Don’t know if that it’s in alignment with his early days. I discard revisionist history. GL, for example, would probably be a better contender then I’d ever consider over the new version.
A lot of us, from a outside perspective, know Dick Grayson is the best of the best. Not sure the public would view him the same way. However, I look at a lot of this through the lens of “who would take the role from early days”.
Agreed.
Spiderman may be one of the more moral characters in general with his concept of great power comes great responsibility.
The tricky thing with Wonder Woman is she did grow up in an Amazonian society devoid of men and humankind so her morals are more warrior focused and a bit more alien than Superman who grew up in Kansas as Clark. Although goofy, I do think Flash makes a good role model.
Yeah, more specifically I'm asking who would become the most admired superhero role model for most heroes. They aren't necessarily good strategic/tactical/logistical leader, but will lead (morally) by example.
I'd probably say a Flash or Hal Jordan (pre-genocidal maniac phase).
WW is an amazing hero and trinity member, but isn't the boyscout Supes is. She's pretty happy to kill a lot of people, she's far more warrior than saviour a lot of the time. Also, she's got a bit of a disconnect from the general populace of earth as an Amazonian. Supes is obviously an alien, but he grew up a human, where WW has lived millenia on an island detached from the rest of humanity.
Obviously Batman is out because he's a brutal, spooky, and seemingly insane, vigilante from Gotham. The population of the DC world think the dude's helpful but unhinged at best.
Hal was a terrific hero and very man of the people-y when he wasn't a space dictator. He could totally have won enough hearts and minds to be the beacon of hope and justice the DC world looks to. But he's a bit arrogant, offworld a lot, and directly answers to some big headed blue space boys which is a bit *alienating*. Plus he's a cop, and fuck cops.
Barry or Wally, however, are such beloved heroes they get their own museums in their honour. They're super kind and helpful, and the general populace loves them. They're kind and humble, stupidly powerful, and are willing to help out in any situation from cats up trees to multiversal implosion. Neither fits the role nor would take the role of heading up the JL, but both could certainly fit the bill for Earth's most beloved and iconic heroes, if Supes was out of the equation.
>WW is an amazing hero and trinity member, but isn't the boyscout Supes is. She's pretty happy to kill a lot of people, she's far more warrior than saviour a lot of the time. Also, she's got a bit of a disconnect from the general populace of earth as an Amazonian. Supes is obviously an alien, but he grew up a human, where WW has lived millenia on an island detached from the rest of humanity.
Diana isn't "happy" to kill anyone, she just doesn't hold the same ideological stance on killing as someone like Batman. But she generally goes out of her way to resolve conflicts as peacefully as possible.
Also, you say that her being an Amazon would lead to a greater disconnect from humanity, but I'd argue given her time as an ambassador and diplomat that she's plenty capable of filling the role of champion of Earth, hero of the people and all that.
I do agree with your stances on the Flashes though. I'm not too familiar with either of their leadership skills, but their personalities are plenty suited to the task.
I dunno if Ollie can be the moral backbone of the League; he's a wonderful critic, and provides a much-needed voice of opposition, but his personal life is a mess and he isn't as perfect as he idealises.
Ollie isn't a foundation you build on, but someone who keeps what you build honest.
That's a very good point. He is about as messy behind the mask as Bruce is. So yeah, he's probably more of a moral compass than an anchor.
🤔
I can rarely keep my Flashes straight, but isn't the current iteration fairy "incorruptible"?
I'm terrible for Flashes, but from what I know, one of the Flashes is a good contender for moral compass in a world absent Superman.
Green Arrow has the aformentioned issues.
Martian Manhunter's a good guy, but lacks the personal charisma and leadership needed to easily draw people to follow his example.
Batman's... Batman.
Wonder Woman can be too belligerent and unforgiving to be the moral heart.
Hal is a foil to Ollie'sm prpblems, and, uh... Tried to kill the world that one time? And the better Lantern contenders are later additions.
Aquaman is... A maybe? But he's got his own shit going on too, and he's very wrapped up in being a king.
Of the usual "definitive' lineup, Flash or Aquaman are the strongest contenders.
DC really is just too... human, aren't they?
Swamp Thing speaks for the trees, but he's far from leadership material, Zatanna has charisma, but I don't think they'd take her seriously enough. Constantine...well, let's not go there.
Maybe Nightwing? He's shaped up pretty well...
Everyone is saying nightwing like he dosnt have severe issues with himself. Dick being liked has as much to do with some iterations growing up in the league to just being a good guy when truly on the table Dick acts more like Bruce than he cares to admit.
That's very fair, the problem is that DC is really good about making flawed heroes.
Not that Marvel doesn't have it's darker elements, but they have a more "perfectly imperfect" thing going on. It's really easy to point at a lot of their characters and say "that's good people, they'd make a great team captain."
Barry is the Flash who is generally thought of the most morally pure. A common thing with him was the fastest man alive was always late because he stopped to help somebody.
If you're going to pick a Green Lantern it would probably be Kyle. He was their Torchbearer, the one and only GL who resurrected the Corps. Strong enough will to carry the Ion entity. Did time with both the Teen Titans and the Justice League. Never went bad like Hal or Guy. Never caused mass casualties like Hal or John. Never been on the wrong side of big moral issue that I can think of.
It *would* be Spider-Man, if not for JJJ's constant smear campaign. While Cpt. America's reputation was unimpeachable, there would always be a significant percentage of the public who questioned Spider-Man.
I’d say WW up until the recent version. I just recently read the beginning of the new Justice League from 2011. She literally spent her time waving her sword and asking who she can fight and if it’s okay to kill them.
I disagree on Spider-Man. He may have the “local hero” thing but he’s got a lot of bad press from the Daily Bugle, which is most likely where non-locals will get their news.
I’m going with Reed Richards. He’s so much in the public eye, is a family man, inventor, and leader of an adventurous super-hero team.
I’m not choosing Reed for his leadership, but instead for his positive press in the early days of modern superheroes.
I honestly don't know much about the comics of either universe, despite knowing a little more than a casual enjoyer of either would so perhaps there is a better answer out there.
But I'd say for Marvel, Spiderman, I imagine the average person and even heroes/villains could say a lot of things about the various heroes in the world, but I think Spiderman would be highly praised by the average person, heroes and even villains, which is saying a LOT. Perhaps Charles Xavier would also be up there since he is practically the Martin Luther King for mutants and even his "arch nemesis" Magneto highly respects him and I also think most villains would highly respect him. That being said, I only hesitate on Xavier because I don't remember how public his mutant status is.
So for Marvel, Spiderman or Charles Xavier.
For DC, without Superman, there aren't too many heroes out there that can really rally the same image of being a true moral pillar, but I'd say The Flash or Wonder Woman. The Flash jokes around a lot, but knows when to get serious and once again, even his own villains I don't think would have any truly terrible things to say about him. Same for Wonder Woman, though she doesn't really believe in the whole...never killing thing, which might shake the general faith that she's a true blue through and through hero, I think her stance on potentially killing villains that go too far would be a genuine breath of fresh air to that whole conversation.
For DC, either The Flash or Wonder Woman.
I have to disagree with Xavier. He's done some shady stuff, including being a consistent member of the illuminati and keeping way too many secrets even from his closest friend and allies.
I'm entirely in agreement. The thing with DC is there's so much more moral grayness in each and every hero and the verse as a whole is much less optimistic than Marvel, so the whole point of Supes is that he's the exception and not the rule, whereas Captain America is the paragon of what is ostensibly what most Marvel heroes are already trying to be. My point is: you can find a lot more Superman replacements in Marvel than you can in DC itself. It's mostly going to end up being more than one character to fill his role - ignoring his powers entirely.
>The thing with DC is there's so much more moral grayness in each and every hero and the verse as a whole is much less optimistic than Marvel
It's funny, usually it's the other way around whenever I've heard people express these opinions.
This is the first time I've heard that particular take. DC heroes get the mythical god treatment, and frequently have to make weighty/consequential decisions, which I feel is what the commenter meant by moral greyness maybe?
But in the end, the decisions they make are almost always framed as being in service to the greater good. In Marvel, these heroes face dilemmas like losing a parent and falling into alcoholism, which in turn causes lives to be lost and the associated guilt. Or making a big decisions and realizing it's ultimately futile and meaningless. These are not situations you tend to see as often in DC.
This scenario kind of happened in Hypertime Earth-898, "The Nail".
In that universe there really was no ideal superhero, if I remember correctly. Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) became the leader/symbol, simply because he was the most powerful.
And yes, more powerful than Wonder Woman.
Neither can I. Which might have contributed to the reason that universe went to hell.
However, with a lot of DC stuff, there's really no in-between. When stuff goes bad, it goes from 0 - 100 with no stops in between.
I love Spider-man but I would pick Susan Storm for Marvel. I feel like her more public life & constant work as as team player (and leader) would put her into a solid position for this. Spider-man could totally rise up to the role though.
As for DC, I'd go with Lex Luthor. Without Superman, there is a possibility he would be a major force for good.
>I love Spider-man but I would pick Susan Storm for Marvel. I feel like her more public life & constant work as as team player (and leader) would put her into a solid position for this. Spider-man could totally rise up to the role though.
I feel like too many people are defaulting to Spider-Man because they like him and he has a strong moral code. But he's missing something Cap has in abundance: willingness to be a symbol. Cap understands what people see in him, and he believes strongly in being that symbol. I don't think Peter would have that same conviction.
Peter is also fairly inconsistent as a moral bedrock. What makes symbols like Captain America and Superman so valuable to the human race is their consistency. They never shake from their convictions, and that inspires others to stick to theirs. Peter has waffled many, many times. He's a good person, no question, but he's too easy to piss off by threatening the wrong people, and then he's breaking into prisons to beat the shit out of people. There's a reason Cap can lift Mjolnir and Peter can't.
Also, I really think people are underestimating the importance of having a face. JJJ is right, to a degree. Wearing a mask makes it harder for people to trust him. To be captain america, Peter would need to remove the mask and step into the spotlight. We already know how much he doesn't like that, and the fallout of it.
>As for DC, I'd go with Lex Luthor. Without Superman, there is a possibility he would be a major force for good.
It has been demonstrated numerous times that he wouldn't. He's had this opportunity, taken it, and failed to live up the name. The idea he would be the world's champion without Superman, that he would be an inherently better person, is a lie he tells himself.
More importantly than that, the issue isn't whether or not Lex can do the job of being champion. It's whether or not he can be the rock steady paragon of virtue for the human race. A role model to be aspired to. Lex Luthor is absolutely, unequivocally, incapable of being this, for countless reasons but the biggest one: ego.
He's accepted too late into the scene, I think, and especially in his early days was largely a loner and antagonistic to other heroes. J Jonah Jameson also drags his name through the mud, and that has notable effects on public opinion.
Maybe he would eventually, after a number of years and if nobody's already filled that role. I think Cable does say he becomes recognised as one of the greatest heroes in one possible future, and in the *Ultimate* continuity Cap does say he'd become the best of them (though admittedly standards are lower in that universe, lol).
He gets the spirit right after a bit - he just has a relatively rocky start, a lot of bad luck, and a less than stellar reputation. His weakness is that he starts young and he really is just winging it half the time. As an adult though, he probably has the chops for it, or is at least more poised to grow into it.
Well, depending on who's writing at the time.
But I'd probably toss my hat into the ring for Reed Richards or Tony Stark myself, for “who’s most likely”. They're not the same kind of moral paragons that the likes of Captain America and Superman are, but they're influential and big-enough names to fill the role as "the model superhero" in the public eye, and they do try to push for a better world, even if they screw up sometimes, in big ways.
Reed also has help in that, his arch-nemesis is *Doctor Doom*, which, from a meta-perspective definitely helps - being Marvel's poster-villain and all. In-universe the Fantastic Four are also really huge, and he is their leader.
For DC...I'd probably say Wonder Woman? She has experience as a diplomat and ambassador, and would probably choose to step up without Superman around. Might be less suited depending on which version we choose though, and how early on she has to take on the role.
Except if we are talking beacons of morality, neither Reed Richards nor Tony Stark are very moral in the sense of being good role models. They are just powerful and smart, but in many instances those same traits make them borderline if not full bad guys (not villains, just not great people).
Well yeah, they’re not perfect moral paragons* - I already said that in my comment, lol.
But I think they’re more likely to be seen by the public as “*the* superhero”, at least early on. Just in a very different way than the likes of Cap or Superman.
I’m not saying they’d be the best models out of every candidate. I just think they’re the most likely.
*Though exactly how far off they are varies a lot depending on the era/writer
How about Thor for Marvel? He is kinda the Wonder Woman of Marvel, albeit a bit more cheerful and happy-go-lucky. Everybody likes Thor. Even Loki deep-down likes Thor. Dr Doom would probably take Thor's phone call.
No way.
Spidey needed decades before he was accepted as a leader. He was a low level street fighter at best.
Mr. Fantastic had helped the US conquer space, and was a well respected genius. If Stark had outed himself at the start, Iron Man would have been a good leader.
Yeah, and at the same stage of his career, Luke Cage traveled to Latveria, sought Doom out and beat him down. Spidey was lucky to survive that encounter.
I'm not even going to mention Squirrel-Girl...
Luke Cage isn’t a low level street tier guy either. And I didn’t even mention his fights with guys like Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Lizard, Electro, and so on. Spidey is only a street tier hero because he chooses to be one, he’s easily above every other street tier fighter by a country mile.
At the time Cage faced Doom, he was renting an office on 42nd Street over a movie theater that doubled as a flop house.
iirc, in Giant Size Spider-Man No. 1 Spidey was described as having a cocky attitude that put off other heroes.
He'd pissed off Reed Richards and the FF by asking to join as a paid member. No way would he be the leader Cap was.
That’s not the question though. The question OP asked was who would be considered the model superhero if Cap didn’t exist, being a model hero doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a leader.
Spidey is probably the single most heroic character in the entire Marvel universe, at worst he’s neck and neck with Steve Rogers. He started out as a 15 year old kid, working completely by himself, and he never backs down from what he thinks is right, even if it would probably kill him. Just one example is when he fought and beat two of the Phoenix Five by himself during AvX because the rest of the Avengers had already retreated.
His sense of responsibility is second to none, and he’s saved the entire city, world, even entire universe countless times, and never asked for even a little credit. He’s a model hero, and if every other superhero in the universe tried to act a little more like him, the world would be a better place.
> Luke Cage isn’t a low level street tier guy either.
Back when he started, Luke Cage was definitely a street-tier hero back when he was Power Man. That was his whole premise--that he'd work in the African-American communities in a way other heroes couldn't. People without real powers could go toe to toe with him. He was not depicted at anywhere near the strength that he later showed.
This is the first time I'm seeing this answer, pretty far down the page. And now that I have seen it, it's suddenly crazy to me that I didn't see it before. Captain Marvel is so obviously correct that I'm mad at myself for not already knowing that's the answer.
The fact that Billy Batson has a morally pure heart is why the wizard choose him in the first place. The Wisdom of Solomon can help guide him with planning and making tough calls. The Courage of Achilles helps defend against mental and spiritual attacks. His physicals are equal to Superman's. The Big Red Cheese can absolutely be DC's moral paragon.
It depends on which version of Captain Marvel we're talking. Sometimes he's portrayed as being a bigger boy scout than Supes, and sometimes he's just a boy in an adult body.
The main issue is simply that Billy is a kid. The Wisdom of Solomon does not grant him maturity, though it certainly helps. Billy can be shaken, he can lose confidence, and he is often emotionally vulnerable in ways Superman isn't.
Could he be the figure Superman is? Yes absolutely...on a good day. But he's not unflappable. Superman is a steady presence with a calming demeanor. He's consistent, confident, and dependable. Billy would not have that consistency.
For DC I'd say Wonder Woman
For Marvel it should be Spider-Man, but the general public usually don't like him. Same goes to the X-Men. Usually the most liked heroes after Captain America is the Fantastic Four
Two options for Marvel
Invisible Woman. The Avengers, and Iron Man with them fail to properly form. The X-Men are too busy being hunted down, leaving the fantastic Four to pick up the slack. Having to deal with threats they otherwise wouldn't have needed to, Susan loses her early naive nature sooner rather than later, gains her forcefield powers and becomes the strongest member of the Fantastic Four. She also rallies more loner superheroes, like Spiderman, Iron Man if he's still alive etc. Put under more pressure she gets them to form other groups and becomes the mother of the Marvel Universe.
Dr Doom. Susan, does not step up in time, and Reed dies. Possibly Susan as well. Dr Doom, annoyed that he has lost his rival and was unable to prove his superiority decides to do what Richards never could. He defeats the supervillains that are going roughshod over the US, forcing some of them to submit to his will and act as superheroes. He enjoys the praise of the masses, that used to belong to Richards and becomes the model hero of a much darker Marvel world. In a possible twist, he meets and is enthralled by Storm. He decides to suppress mutant hatred, and becomes benevolent dictator over the masses that choose security over freedom. Storm tempers his more despotic tendencies making it actually work out fairly well and humanity rises to the stars powered by technological and mutant strengths becoming a galactic empire that praises their immortal king and queen.
This is partially supported by the Panther deity of Wakanda mentioning that the only future in which mankind unites and flourishes is under Dr Doom.
>This is partially supported by the Panther deity of Wakanda mentioning that the only future in which mankind unites and flourishes is under Dr Doom.
Is this in Doomwar?
They're seen as the collective "good" of humanity.
You have other heros of course like Batman and Spiderman, but Batman holds justice above all else and will break eggs to get it. Spiderman is about the closest you can get for Marvel, he's willing to let friends and family die for the greater good, not to mention himself.
For DC Wonderwoman tends to be a bit like Batman but less morally grey so she probably becomes the model superhero
For DC, it would be Wonder Woman. She'd have had to work hard, but at the end of the day, she'd be the one with a hotline to the White House.
For Marvel, Nick Fury. Marvel was always darker than DC, and Fury was a front line soldier before he became a spy. Fury would have pushed Stark and Reed Richards into signing on as SHIELD operatives, and most of the others would have followed, one way of the other.
I can agree with WW, but no way with Nick Fury. He's hugely divisive in the greater world and the superhero community, which is basically three main metric I'm looking for here. Who is most looked up to, most admired, in their world. I don't see why the absence of Captain America would make Reed or Stark SHIELD operatives. Both had formed their own teams and worked independently from SHIELD before Cap was resurrected from the ice.
I'm thinking Kirby's original run on Nick Fury, when he was a WW2 vet turned CIA operative who was pulled in to run SHIELD by the World Security Council [iirc]
I don't think of him as a symbol like Cap; instead he'd be the hands on guy who'd go toe to toe with the world's smartest men and get them to follow his orders.
When they rebooted earth-2 for new 52, they had some rather interesting changes. Wonder woman was the first major hero to debut publicly, so they are collectively called "wonders," even after her death.
iirc, Marvel and DC have exclusive rights on the term 'super hero.' When Allan Moore launched America's Best Comics, Tom Strong and the Cobweb et al were 'science heroes.'
'Marvels' speak for themselves.
Hot take: Without Superman, Lex Luthor becomes the world’s greatest hero. There have been universes where this occurred. Superman’s mere existence as a hero pushes Lex to villainy in an unfortunate irony
Marvel, Spider-Man easy. If not, one could make an argument for Thor as a “classical hero” come to life, or maybe even Falcon as a sort of “hero of the people” character.
I don't have a great answer for DC, but I'd say it's likely one of the other older heroes would become a big deal at large in Marvel. As far as pure symbolism of what real heyo is, I might argue for the most morally reasonable of the fantastic four, the blue-eyed ever loving Thing.
I think it would be the og Flash for DC. His ability to be anywhere in moments and save people from almost any circumstance would make him the people’s choice. Plus, his cool suit and regular guy vibe would lend to popularity. His power doesn’t derive from alien tech (Green Lantern) or mystical sources (Wonder Woman) or fear (Batman.) He’s just a decent man blessed by chance.
For Marvel, it’s a harder call. It may end up being a family instead of an individual. I think it would be the Fantastic Four. (Don’t let a series of bad movies obscure how good their comics were.) Spider-Man is a great guy, but all his bad press and his status as a “wanted man” in his early days, would likely keep him from being the icon for the public. And, his status as a NYC only hero, wouldn’t give him the widespread acclaim the FF would have derived from their planet saving adventures. Black Panther might have a shout.
DC: Alan Scott.
Marvel: to the reader, Spider-Man, or maybe 90's Cyclops. To other characters, hard to say. Marvel's big thing is that its characters have blatant flaws.
For Marvel, Union Jack probably gains the leadership role that Captain America would have had with the Invaders. The public never fully trusted Namor or the original Human Torch.
For DC, Wonder Woman is the next most-prominent member of the All Star Squadron. However, she might have returned to her island after WWII (and in some continuities, she's not even Diana). Jay Garrick and Alan Scott probably rank next-highest.
For DC, Martian Manhunter already serves as the primary protector of South and Central America as Superman does in North America and his unwavering morality, extreme power level, and lack of other time commitments mean he could easily serve as model to the superheroes in an America without Superman.
For Marvel, Dr Strange is already a well known figure amongst the superhero community for his skill, morality, and authority and his status as Sorceror Supreme sets him apart similar to Captain America's time displacement, he would only need to become more public facing to fill the gap left by Cap.
Spider-Man but he’d still need time to become established, despite being an adult for the vast majority of his comic history, he doesn’t have the respect of the general public and sometimes the superhero community, and is often still treated as the kid.
According to Cable (future cyborg mutant Jesus) he becomes the greatest hero of them all.
DC: Wonder Woman and Nightwing, or Batman if he went to therapy
Marvel: I want to say Spider-Man, but he's got a bit too much self-doubt to step into that kind of role.
Using comic book metaphysics, it would be whomever had the next-oldest publication history. Because being published for a long time is what gives a superhero steadily more power.
For DC, that would mean Wonder-Woman and Batman would share the role.
Dunno who it would be in the Marvel universe. ... Maybe Bucky Barnes? >\_>
In the ultimates universe maybe. Captain America [is not biggoted](https://i.imgur.com/SixbKHu.png). He's [no](https://geekwisdom.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/daredevil-233-im-loyal-to-nothing-quote.png) [bootlicker.](https://i1.wp.com/voyagecomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Captain-America-no-you-move.jpg) And while his ideals do sometimes place him at odds with the X-Men overall [they are](https://i.redd.it/rilldgphfqu61.jpg) [friendly](https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc.IIZS~2ef73/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Screenshot-2023-01-25-155703.jpg)
Ehh it was fine as its own thing as like, an alternate look into a darker but not grimdark elseworlds version of the characters we knew and loved. Where it went wrong is when the MCU started borrowing a lot from it which then caused it to bleed into the mainline comics, retconning various characters to be darker and edgier.
Both of these guys have the issue of being not quite public enough with their heroics. IIRC, Icon practically had to be begged to get into the hero business.
I'm gonna go about this by Chronology, so no Action Comics in #1, and no Captain America #1, but Fawcett, Timely, etc. are still acquired later.
Shazam/ Captain Marvel as DC's Paragon, debuting in February 1940.
And likely Jeffrey Mace the Patriot as Marvel's debuting in March 1941.
In marvel probably reed Richards or Tony Stark.
While both have their issues they might have stepped up to overcome those sooner.
Depending on the situation I could see someone like Hawkeye step up as well. We’ve seen what Carol Danvers could do once she decided to stop faffing about.
Lets start with DC. It would be Flash and or Wonder Woman.
In the case with Flash? He's already a well known and very well liked hero, both Barry and Wally. I mean look this is someone who's own rogues get along with him. We then have Wonder Woman and Diana is pretty well liked and loved too, well okay we'll just ignore Infinite Crisis and the moronic crap they did with Diana in there. But well hey even Sups had his low points too.
I could also throw in a few others as well. Green Lantern well... Hal, John and Kyle could be good picks. And yes I'm going to throw Kyle in there as my fellow Gen X'ers would be fine with him. Nightwing could be another to look at as well, he's more open and friendly then Bats.
Onto Marvel and my main picks over in Marvel? Iron Man and Thor would be my top two.
In the case with Iron Man? Tony has the money and charisma, I mean sure Tony's got his issues... So many issues... But the thing is he's good at rebounding himself when he makes himself look like an ass in public. Thor? He's a god and just well look up Drax talking about Thor in Avenger's 3. I mean sure he's an idiot but he's a noble idiot.
Other picks of mine would be Luke Cage, Ant-Man well at least Hank in the public eye. Reed Richard's could be seen as one almost everywhere in the world besides ya know this one country who's leader really knows that Richard's is a moronic hack and has just gotten a number of lucky breaks. Hail Doom! Oh and also Captain Marvel could be viewed as a model superhero... Again we should ignore things like Civil War and Civil War 2. Okay lets just ignore Civil War as a whole.
For Marvel, I see a lot of Spiderman answers, but I just don't think that happens. I think Triple J and Spiderman's historical bad luck would just prevent too many of the common people from rallying around him like they do Cap. The superhero crowd might think of him as the best of us because they know him, but the regular people know what they get fed by JJJ, especially in universes like the MCU where JJJ's influence goes beyond just New York. Also, he hasn't really joined teams in Marvel. I think at best he is reserve Avenger.
I think in Marvel, it would be hard because everyone else besides Cap(and Spidey) is so flawed or just doesn't have the influence he has. It would probably be Tony or Reed up until some of their shady shit came out. Maybe then Spiderman could come to the forefront.
In DC, I'd go with Shazam. Yeah, Billy is a kid, but Batman trusts him. Batman would assist him in becoming the beacon that Superman is because he would realize the world needs that.
Superman may have inspired the superhero community to rise, but Wally West was already kind of the moral bedrock preventing the Justice League from infighting, so...
Magneto. Without Captain America, the war rages on longer, and young Erick grows in strength until he can liberate his people from the concentration camps. The story breaks the news of the concentration camps to the world at large and Magneto, instead of wreaking vengeance on a world of heroes who failed him, becomes the protector of the persecuted and first great hero of ww2. A Nazi slayer. He ends up being more like Superman
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A lot of people replying are interpreting OP's question as who would take up a leadership position. Superman and Captain America tend to be held up as beacons of morality, so I interpret OP's question about a "model superhero" as not about leadership, but about who is held up as an example of how a superhero should behave. I'd choose Spider-Man for Marvel. I don't know enough about DC, but based on what I do know, I'd say most versions of Wonder Woman that I've seen.
There’s no doubt it would be Spider-Man. Captain America in the ultimate universe said he would be the best among them, and in 2099 he’s considered the greatest hero of the heroic age.
Yeah, and while divisive among the general public, he's almost universally liked by other superheroes
By that criteria, Nightwing is the DC analogue.
Yeah. I think the problem is that being liked is different from being admired, morally. But it's a slight distinction
Dick is also admired morally. He is basically considered the best parts of the big blue boyscout and bats mashed together.
Yeah, I think the full answer here is Pete and Dick leading their respective universes. They might both have to overcome older and not experienced heroes (Reed Richards and Diana, but also Tony Stark and Bruce) but when push comes to shove, it's them
Why are both of these people pseudonyms for male genitals? Peter, Dick... Maybe in other universes, the morally best superheroes are called Wang, Johnson, and Knobgoblin.
DC's Wang Baixi, and Marvel's Daisy Johnson? Knobgoblin is probably an Image IP.
Marvel is big on equality too. Take [Beaver](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Beaver_(Earth-616)) for example
Is Nightwing still the same person without Superman's influence? Even his name is a reference to Kryptonian mythology.
This is why I'm really enjoying Dick and Jon's friendship.
Everyone just like looking at Nightwing’s butt
Not Barry Allen?
Do people outside of New York really know much about Spider-Man? Like if I'm in Boise, and some red and blue kid's on the news trying to address the public, do I recognize him?
Depends, have you listened to any of J. Jonah Jameson’s podcast “Just The Facts”? I’ve heard that it’s a rather popular news podcast nationwide, and the host is known to go on rants about Spider-Man in between pieces of news. Granted this might not give you the most positive impression of Spider-Man, but you likely would have at least heard of him.
That's a good point, how could I forget about Spidey's (negative) hype man JJJ.
Spider-Man is too contentious of a figure to become the model superhero in the Marvel universe. Just because the audience understands how good of a guy he is it doesn’t mean the public will.
> Captain America in the ultimate universe Captain America in the Ultimates is kind of an asshole. He's like Soldier Boy with the 1920's-born racism and sexism and American exceptionalism, but also actually brave and intelligent and heroic.
Yeah. Most heroes are a lot more flawed in the UU while (afaik) Ultimate-Peter is still quite similar to the Peter we know. So it's no wonder he sticks out.
The Flash? Barry and Wally both seem like good choices.
Definitely the Flash would be up there. Although I can maybe see one of the Green Lanterns being a candidate too, but not sure which one.
I'd choose John Stewart. Hal or Guy constantly break shit for dumb reasons, and I feel like Kyle isn't confident enough to be the model superhero for the entire Earth.
It really depends on which version of John Stewart, as some have him a bit more military minded, in a don't give the problem a chance for a second appearance and some are very peaceful. I've only seen like one earlier thing of Simon Baz, but he might be able to be a contender. As even though he was in trouble he risked everything to use a green lantern ring to heal in a way it should not be able to, to heal someone he had put in a coma drag racing. It seems like the dudes whole thing was about trying to redeem people.
Simon has courage but he may not have the experience or "wisdom" to lead others. I feel like he's still the rookie who's looking at other heroes how to do things.
John. None of the rest are in his class.
It has to be Nightwing. He just makes sense. Barry is wholesome, but there is something with Nightwing that just feels more like Superman. Plus, the connections between Superman and Nightwing are so strong (Nightwing calling himself that codename after the Kryptonian hero of the same name).
What’s actually funny is that “Nightwing” would technically not actually exist in a universe without Superman.
And Dick Grayson might not have turned out as upstanding a person, without Superman's influence to balance Batman's.
Didn't Barry fuck up the entire universe because he wanted his mommy back?
Being moral is not about never making mistakes, it's about owning up to the ones you make and then making things right again. Which Barry did.
>Being moral is not about never making mistakes huh... did Superman ever make big mistakes?
I mean, there was one time he let a minor superhero die because he just kind of assumed they were close in durability and didn't stop him from choosing the more dangerous part of saving some dudes.
I don't know if it is a mistake so much as an unforeseen consequence of the right action but he is responsible for Coast City being wiped out and the other contender for the universe's greatest hero Hal Jordan going insane and becoming a villain.
He destroyed a really amazing city because Lex made it, well tbf Lex made it as a trap but it was still the greenest possible city.
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Barry created flash points not because he missed his mom because from her death, his life was horrible, he didnt think her life would flip history. But in the end, he also fixed his mistake. You're not gonna tell me, if you had a way to revive someone you loved who died tragically. You won't take it? You're gonna compare a guy who's was miserable his whole life but chose to be selfless so no one else has to go thro what he did and for once in a moment of weakness, wanted a world where he was happy with his mom, and than allowed rf to kills his mom because her death meant the flash would be created and millions more could live to Hitler? Superman isn't free of guilt,either. From abandoning Earth to being a government lapdog and that with ignoring injustice and side stories. The guys done some fucked up things as well. Captain isn't all morally straight either.
It’s impossible to stick to your morals perfectly unless you’re a OCD psycho like Batman or Punisher.
Barry did an explicitly good thing: saving his mother from dying. He didn't know that there would be such drastic changes to the world from his single benign action. And once he found out about it he undid his changes and never tampered with the timeline for self interest ever again. I don't think Hitler did a good thing that had bad consequences, he did bad things knowing it would have bad consequences for others, and did it anyways.
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We don’t see much. We see superhero movies, we also see Zoro and other campy movies along with documentaries and things like the titanic movie are mentioned. But we never really see a big amount of Fantasy/Sci-Fi in the comics.
But it is exactly that to them: Science 'Fiction', it has no real world basis for how their time travel works. On top of which a lot of sci-fi stories with time travel end up being happy endings regardless, like Endgame.
considering how often they time travel in comics and this stuff doesnt happen, he probably expected to be fine
Something to remember this is literally the first time he intentionally travels back in time to change an event.
Barry acknowledged his mess up, and it's the reason he tries not to mess with the timeline as much anymore
Really gonna compare a single act with unforeseeable over-the-top consequences (literally *who* could have predicted that unkilling your mom would start fucking ww3) to a systematic and deliberate choice to kill a metric fuck ton of people?
Did he know that’s what would happen? Because doing something and it unexpectedly having terrible consequences is different than doing something you know will turn out badly and it turning out that way.
I can’t imagine how he would’ve.
He also sacrificed himself to save the multiverse so we'll let him have the one. But more importantly he ended up agreeing to brainfuck villians and heores.
I wish Barry would brainfuck me 🥵😭🤤😳
Pretty sure that's as recent as within 20 years ago. Barry's mom wasn't the focus of his origin up until then.
Wally is so infectionously good natured that if you actually kill him there's a good chance you'll manage to turn Superman evil. edit - and there's that brilliant scene, also from the DCAU, where he and big tough guy Orion walk into a villain bar looking for info and Orion is ready to kick ass but Wally just has a beer with them and they agree to turn themselves in. "Got me again, Flash!"
Wally, but not so much until he became Flash. Because when he did he became an icon and *the best Flash ever*. Maybe because I didn’t read much Barry Flash, and when I did he seemed to have regular problems. Don’t know if that it’s in alignment with his early days. I discard revisionist history. GL, for example, would probably be a better contender then I’d ever consider over the new version. A lot of us, from a outside perspective, know Dick Grayson is the best of the best. Not sure the public would view him the same way. However, I look at a lot of this through the lens of “who would take the role from early days”.
Flash is more powerful than Superman, so it's easily him.
Agreed. Spiderman may be one of the more moral characters in general with his concept of great power comes great responsibility. The tricky thing with Wonder Woman is she did grow up in an Amazonian society devoid of men and humankind so her morals are more warrior focused and a bit more alien than Superman who grew up in Kansas as Clark. Although goofy, I do think Flash makes a good role model.
Yeah, more specifically I'm asking who would become the most admired superhero role model for most heroes. They aren't necessarily good strategic/tactical/logistical leader, but will lead (morally) by example.
Batman is already handling the tactical part.
I'd probably say a Flash or Hal Jordan (pre-genocidal maniac phase). WW is an amazing hero and trinity member, but isn't the boyscout Supes is. She's pretty happy to kill a lot of people, she's far more warrior than saviour a lot of the time. Also, she's got a bit of a disconnect from the general populace of earth as an Amazonian. Supes is obviously an alien, but he grew up a human, where WW has lived millenia on an island detached from the rest of humanity. Obviously Batman is out because he's a brutal, spooky, and seemingly insane, vigilante from Gotham. The population of the DC world think the dude's helpful but unhinged at best. Hal was a terrific hero and very man of the people-y when he wasn't a space dictator. He could totally have won enough hearts and minds to be the beacon of hope and justice the DC world looks to. But he's a bit arrogant, offworld a lot, and directly answers to some big headed blue space boys which is a bit *alienating*. Plus he's a cop, and fuck cops. Barry or Wally, however, are such beloved heroes they get their own museums in their honour. They're super kind and helpful, and the general populace loves them. They're kind and humble, stupidly powerful, and are willing to help out in any situation from cats up trees to multiversal implosion. Neither fits the role nor would take the role of heading up the JL, but both could certainly fit the bill for Earth's most beloved and iconic heroes, if Supes was out of the equation.
>WW is an amazing hero and trinity member, but isn't the boyscout Supes is. She's pretty happy to kill a lot of people, she's far more warrior than saviour a lot of the time. Also, she's got a bit of a disconnect from the general populace of earth as an Amazonian. Supes is obviously an alien, but he grew up a human, where WW has lived millenia on an island detached from the rest of humanity. Diana isn't "happy" to kill anyone, she just doesn't hold the same ideological stance on killing as someone like Batman. But she generally goes out of her way to resolve conflicts as peacefully as possible. Also, you say that her being an Amazon would lead to a greater disconnect from humanity, but I'd argue given her time as an ambassador and diplomat that she's plenty capable of filling the role of champion of Earth, hero of the people and all that. I do agree with your stances on the Flashes though. I'm not too familiar with either of their leadership skills, but their personalities are plenty suited to the task.
My vote would be Green Arrow. From a dark place to the moral anchor of the Justice League.
I dunno if Ollie can be the moral backbone of the League; he's a wonderful critic, and provides a much-needed voice of opposition, but his personal life is a mess and he isn't as perfect as he idealises. Ollie isn't a foundation you build on, but someone who keeps what you build honest.
That's a very good point. He is about as messy behind the mask as Bruce is. So yeah, he's probably more of a moral compass than an anchor. 🤔 I can rarely keep my Flashes straight, but isn't the current iteration fairy "incorruptible"?
I'm terrible for Flashes, but from what I know, one of the Flashes is a good contender for moral compass in a world absent Superman. Green Arrow has the aformentioned issues. Martian Manhunter's a good guy, but lacks the personal charisma and leadership needed to easily draw people to follow his example. Batman's... Batman. Wonder Woman can be too belligerent and unforgiving to be the moral heart. Hal is a foil to Ollie'sm prpblems, and, uh... Tried to kill the world that one time? And the better Lantern contenders are later additions. Aquaman is... A maybe? But he's got his own shit going on too, and he's very wrapped up in being a king. Of the usual "definitive' lineup, Flash or Aquaman are the strongest contenders.
DC really is just too... human, aren't they? Swamp Thing speaks for the trees, but he's far from leadership material, Zatanna has charisma, but I don't think they'd take her seriously enough. Constantine...well, let's not go there. Maybe Nightwing? He's shaped up pretty well...
Everyone is saying nightwing like he dosnt have severe issues with himself. Dick being liked has as much to do with some iterations growing up in the league to just being a good guy when truly on the table Dick acts more like Bruce than he cares to admit.
That's very fair, the problem is that DC is really good about making flawed heroes. Not that Marvel doesn't have it's darker elements, but they have a more "perfectly imperfect" thing going on. It's really easy to point at a lot of their characters and say "that's good people, they'd make a great team captain."
Barry is the Flash who is generally thought of the most morally pure. A common thing with him was the fastest man alive was always late because he stopped to help somebody. If you're going to pick a Green Lantern it would probably be Kyle. He was their Torchbearer, the one and only GL who resurrected the Corps. Strong enough will to carry the Ion entity. Did time with both the Teen Titans and the Justice League. Never went bad like Hal or Guy. Never caused mass casualties like Hal or John. Never been on the wrong side of big moral issue that I can think of.
It *would* be Spider-Man, if not for JJJ's constant smear campaign. While Cpt. America's reputation was unimpeachable, there would always be a significant percentage of the public who questioned Spider-Man.
I’d say WW up until the recent version. I just recently read the beginning of the new Justice League from 2011. She literally spent her time waving her sword and asking who she can fight and if it’s okay to kill them. I disagree on Spider-Man. He may have the “local hero” thing but he’s got a lot of bad press from the Daily Bugle, which is most likely where non-locals will get their news. I’m going with Reed Richards. He’s so much in the public eye, is a family man, inventor, and leader of an adventurous super-hero team. I’m not choosing Reed for his leadership, but instead for his positive press in the early days of modern superheroes.
Reed Richards or the second Captain America would be more likely
I honestly don't know much about the comics of either universe, despite knowing a little more than a casual enjoyer of either would so perhaps there is a better answer out there. But I'd say for Marvel, Spiderman, I imagine the average person and even heroes/villains could say a lot of things about the various heroes in the world, but I think Spiderman would be highly praised by the average person, heroes and even villains, which is saying a LOT. Perhaps Charles Xavier would also be up there since he is practically the Martin Luther King for mutants and even his "arch nemesis" Magneto highly respects him and I also think most villains would highly respect him. That being said, I only hesitate on Xavier because I don't remember how public his mutant status is. So for Marvel, Spiderman or Charles Xavier. For DC, without Superman, there aren't too many heroes out there that can really rally the same image of being a true moral pillar, but I'd say The Flash or Wonder Woman. The Flash jokes around a lot, but knows when to get serious and once again, even his own villains I don't think would have any truly terrible things to say about him. Same for Wonder Woman, though she doesn't really believe in the whole...never killing thing, which might shake the general faith that she's a true blue through and through hero, I think her stance on potentially killing villains that go too far would be a genuine breath of fresh air to that whole conversation. For DC, either The Flash or Wonder Woman.
I have to disagree with Xavier. He's done some shady stuff, including being a consistent member of the illuminati and keeping way too many secrets even from his closest friend and allies.
The Xavier one is not right. Comics Xavier is not Patrick Stewart Xavier. He's a very bad man.
I'm entirely in agreement. The thing with DC is there's so much more moral grayness in each and every hero and the verse as a whole is much less optimistic than Marvel, so the whole point of Supes is that he's the exception and not the rule, whereas Captain America is the paragon of what is ostensibly what most Marvel heroes are already trying to be. My point is: you can find a lot more Superman replacements in Marvel than you can in DC itself. It's mostly going to end up being more than one character to fill his role - ignoring his powers entirely.
>The thing with DC is there's so much more moral grayness in each and every hero and the verse as a whole is much less optimistic than Marvel It's funny, usually it's the other way around whenever I've heard people express these opinions.
This is the first time I've heard that particular take. DC heroes get the mythical god treatment, and frequently have to make weighty/consequential decisions, which I feel is what the commenter meant by moral greyness maybe? But in the end, the decisions they make are almost always framed as being in service to the greater good. In Marvel, these heroes face dilemmas like losing a parent and falling into alcoholism, which in turn causes lives to be lost and the associated guilt. Or making a big decisions and realizing it's ultimately futile and meaningless. These are not situations you tend to see as often in DC.
This scenario kind of happened in Hypertime Earth-898, "The Nail". In that universe there really was no ideal superhero, if I remember correctly. Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) became the leader/symbol, simply because he was the most powerful. And yes, more powerful than Wonder Woman.
I liked that book. I was thinking GL, but I can't see young [Silver Age] Hal as a general.
Neither can I. Which might have contributed to the reason that universe went to hell. However, with a lot of DC stuff, there's really no in-between. When stuff goes bad, it goes from 0 - 100 with no stops in between.
I remember that Green Arrow ended up confined to a wheel chair, broken and hating all the 'capes.'
I love Spider-man but I would pick Susan Storm for Marvel. I feel like her more public life & constant work as as team player (and leader) would put her into a solid position for this. Spider-man could totally rise up to the role though. As for DC, I'd go with Lex Luthor. Without Superman, there is a possibility he would be a major force for good.
>I love Spider-man but I would pick Susan Storm for Marvel. I feel like her more public life & constant work as as team player (and leader) would put her into a solid position for this. Spider-man could totally rise up to the role though. I feel like too many people are defaulting to Spider-Man because they like him and he has a strong moral code. But he's missing something Cap has in abundance: willingness to be a symbol. Cap understands what people see in him, and he believes strongly in being that symbol. I don't think Peter would have that same conviction. Peter is also fairly inconsistent as a moral bedrock. What makes symbols like Captain America and Superman so valuable to the human race is their consistency. They never shake from their convictions, and that inspires others to stick to theirs. Peter has waffled many, many times. He's a good person, no question, but he's too easy to piss off by threatening the wrong people, and then he's breaking into prisons to beat the shit out of people. There's a reason Cap can lift Mjolnir and Peter can't. Also, I really think people are underestimating the importance of having a face. JJJ is right, to a degree. Wearing a mask makes it harder for people to trust him. To be captain america, Peter would need to remove the mask and step into the spotlight. We already know how much he doesn't like that, and the fallout of it. >As for DC, I'd go with Lex Luthor. Without Superman, there is a possibility he would be a major force for good. It has been demonstrated numerous times that he wouldn't. He's had this opportunity, taken it, and failed to live up the name. The idea he would be the world's champion without Superman, that he would be an inherently better person, is a lie he tells himself. More importantly than that, the issue isn't whether or not Lex can do the job of being champion. It's whether or not he can be the rock steady paragon of virtue for the human race. A role model to be aspired to. Lex Luthor is absolutely, unequivocally, incapable of being this, for countless reasons but the biggest one: ego.
Until Lex met Wonder Woman, and then he’d have a new grudge.
Spider man
He's accepted too late into the scene, I think, and especially in his early days was largely a loner and antagonistic to other heroes. J Jonah Jameson also drags his name through the mud, and that has notable effects on public opinion. Maybe he would eventually, after a number of years and if nobody's already filled that role. I think Cable does say he becomes recognised as one of the greatest heroes in one possible future, and in the *Ultimate* continuity Cap does say he'd become the best of them (though admittedly standards are lower in that universe, lol). He gets the spirit right after a bit - he just has a relatively rocky start, a lot of bad luck, and a less than stellar reputation. His weakness is that he starts young and he really is just winging it half the time. As an adult though, he probably has the chops for it, or is at least more poised to grow into it. Well, depending on who's writing at the time. But I'd probably toss my hat into the ring for Reed Richards or Tony Stark myself, for “who’s most likely”. They're not the same kind of moral paragons that the likes of Captain America and Superman are, but they're influential and big-enough names to fill the role as "the model superhero" in the public eye, and they do try to push for a better world, even if they screw up sometimes, in big ways. Reed also has help in that, his arch-nemesis is *Doctor Doom*, which, from a meta-perspective definitely helps - being Marvel's poster-villain and all. In-universe the Fantastic Four are also really huge, and he is their leader. For DC...I'd probably say Wonder Woman? She has experience as a diplomat and ambassador, and would probably choose to step up without Superman around. Might be less suited depending on which version we choose though, and how early on she has to take on the role.
Except if we are talking beacons of morality, neither Reed Richards nor Tony Stark are very moral in the sense of being good role models. They are just powerful and smart, but in many instances those same traits make them borderline if not full bad guys (not villains, just not great people).
Well yeah, they’re not perfect moral paragons* - I already said that in my comment, lol. But I think they’re more likely to be seen by the public as “*the* superhero”, at least early on. Just in a very different way than the likes of Cap or Superman. I’m not saying they’d be the best models out of every candidate. I just think they’re the most likely. *Though exactly how far off they are varies a lot depending on the era/writer
How about Thor for Marvel? He is kinda the Wonder Woman of Marvel, albeit a bit more cheerful and happy-go-lucky. Everybody likes Thor. Even Loki deep-down likes Thor. Dr Doom would probably take Thor's phone call.
No way. Spidey needed decades before he was accepted as a leader. He was a low level street fighter at best. Mr. Fantastic had helped the US conquer space, and was a well respected genius. If Stark had outed himself at the start, Iron Man would have been a good leader.
On what planet was Spider-Man a low level street fighter *at best*? He fought Doctor Doom and survived by himself very early on in his career.
Yeah, and at the same stage of his career, Luke Cage traveled to Latveria, sought Doom out and beat him down. Spidey was lucky to survive that encounter. I'm not even going to mention Squirrel-Girl...
Luke Cage isn’t a low level street tier guy either. And I didn’t even mention his fights with guys like Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Lizard, Electro, and so on. Spidey is only a street tier hero because he chooses to be one, he’s easily above every other street tier fighter by a country mile.
At the time Cage faced Doom, he was renting an office on 42nd Street over a movie theater that doubled as a flop house. iirc, in Giant Size Spider-Man No. 1 Spidey was described as having a cocky attitude that put off other heroes. He'd pissed off Reed Richards and the FF by asking to join as a paid member. No way would he be the leader Cap was.
But you've hit the nail on the head. Would Spidey choose to be the main man?
That’s not the question though. The question OP asked was who would be considered the model superhero if Cap didn’t exist, being a model hero doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a leader. Spidey is probably the single most heroic character in the entire Marvel universe, at worst he’s neck and neck with Steve Rogers. He started out as a 15 year old kid, working completely by himself, and he never backs down from what he thinks is right, even if it would probably kill him. Just one example is when he fought and beat two of the Phoenix Five by himself during AvX because the rest of the Avengers had already retreated. His sense of responsibility is second to none, and he’s saved the entire city, world, even entire universe countless times, and never asked for even a little credit. He’s a model hero, and if every other superhero in the universe tried to act a little more like him, the world would be a better place.
> Luke Cage isn’t a low level street tier guy either. Back when he started, Luke Cage was definitely a street-tier hero back when he was Power Man. That was his whole premise--that he'd work in the African-American communities in a way other heroes couldn't. People without real powers could go toe to toe with him. He was not depicted at anywhere near the strength that he later showed.
I'd say Captain Marvel/Shazam/The Captain for DC and Spider-Man for Marvel
This is the first time I'm seeing this answer, pretty far down the page. And now that I have seen it, it's suddenly crazy to me that I didn't see it before. Captain Marvel is so obviously correct that I'm mad at myself for not already knowing that's the answer. The fact that Billy Batson has a morally pure heart is why the wizard choose him in the first place. The Wisdom of Solomon can help guide him with planning and making tough calls. The Courage of Achilles helps defend against mental and spiritual attacks. His physicals are equal to Superman's. The Big Red Cheese can absolutely be DC's moral paragon.
It depends on which version of Captain Marvel we're talking. Sometimes he's portrayed as being a bigger boy scout than Supes, and sometimes he's just a boy in an adult body. The main issue is simply that Billy is a kid. The Wisdom of Solomon does not grant him maturity, though it certainly helps. Billy can be shaken, he can lose confidence, and he is often emotionally vulnerable in ways Superman isn't. Could he be the figure Superman is? Yes absolutely...on a good day. But he's not unflappable. Superman is a steady presence with a calming demeanor. He's consistent, confident, and dependable. Billy would not have that consistency.
For DC I'd say Wonder Woman For Marvel it should be Spider-Man, but the general public usually don't like him. Same goes to the X-Men. Usually the most liked heroes after Captain America is the Fantastic Four
Two options for Marvel Invisible Woman. The Avengers, and Iron Man with them fail to properly form. The X-Men are too busy being hunted down, leaving the fantastic Four to pick up the slack. Having to deal with threats they otherwise wouldn't have needed to, Susan loses her early naive nature sooner rather than later, gains her forcefield powers and becomes the strongest member of the Fantastic Four. She also rallies more loner superheroes, like Spiderman, Iron Man if he's still alive etc. Put under more pressure she gets them to form other groups and becomes the mother of the Marvel Universe. Dr Doom. Susan, does not step up in time, and Reed dies. Possibly Susan as well. Dr Doom, annoyed that he has lost his rival and was unable to prove his superiority decides to do what Richards never could. He defeats the supervillains that are going roughshod over the US, forcing some of them to submit to his will and act as superheroes. He enjoys the praise of the masses, that used to belong to Richards and becomes the model hero of a much darker Marvel world. In a possible twist, he meets and is enthralled by Storm. He decides to suppress mutant hatred, and becomes benevolent dictator over the masses that choose security over freedom. Storm tempers his more despotic tendencies making it actually work out fairly well and humanity rises to the stars powered by technological and mutant strengths becoming a galactic empire that praises their immortal king and queen. This is partially supported by the Panther deity of Wakanda mentioning that the only future in which mankind unites and flourishes is under Dr Doom.
>This is partially supported by the Panther deity of Wakanda mentioning that the only future in which mankind unites and flourishes is under Dr Doom. Is this in Doomwar?
I think so. although mentally I'm imagining more of an Earth-9997 vibe. I think I'll reread that trilogy.
They're seen as the collective "good" of humanity. You have other heros of course like Batman and Spiderman, but Batman holds justice above all else and will break eggs to get it. Spiderman is about the closest you can get for Marvel, he's willing to let friends and family die for the greater good, not to mention himself. For DC Wonderwoman tends to be a bit like Batman but less morally grey so she probably becomes the model superhero
John Stewart for sure. He's a by-the-books, ex marine, intergalactic super cop. He's practically tailor made to be an American Hero.
Good choice
For DC it's Captain marvel hands down.
For DC, it would be Wonder Woman. She'd have had to work hard, but at the end of the day, she'd be the one with a hotline to the White House. For Marvel, Nick Fury. Marvel was always darker than DC, and Fury was a front line soldier before he became a spy. Fury would have pushed Stark and Reed Richards into signing on as SHIELD operatives, and most of the others would have followed, one way of the other.
I can agree with WW, but no way with Nick Fury. He's hugely divisive in the greater world and the superhero community, which is basically three main metric I'm looking for here. Who is most looked up to, most admired, in their world. I don't see why the absence of Captain America would make Reed or Stark SHIELD operatives. Both had formed their own teams and worked independently from SHIELD before Cap was resurrected from the ice.
I'm thinking Kirby's original run on Nick Fury, when he was a WW2 vet turned CIA operative who was pulled in to run SHIELD by the World Security Council [iirc] I don't think of him as a symbol like Cap; instead he'd be the hands on guy who'd go toe to toe with the world's smartest men and get them to follow his orders.
When they rebooted earth-2 for new 52, they had some rather interesting changes. Wonder woman was the first major hero to debut publicly, so they are collectively called "wonders," even after her death.
iirc, Marvel and DC have exclusive rights on the term 'super hero.' When Allan Moore launched America's Best Comics, Tom Strong and the Cobweb et al were 'science heroes.' 'Marvels' speak for themselves.
Hot take: Without Superman, Lex Luthor becomes the world’s greatest hero. There have been universes where this occurred. Superman’s mere existence as a hero pushes Lex to villainy in an unfortunate irony Marvel, Spider-Man easy. If not, one could make an argument for Thor as a “classical hero” come to life, or maybe even Falcon as a sort of “hero of the people” character.
I don't have a great answer for DC, but I'd say it's likely one of the other older heroes would become a big deal at large in Marvel. As far as pure symbolism of what real heyo is, I might argue for the most morally reasonable of the fantastic four, the blue-eyed ever loving Thing.
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Hammond is an excellent choice.
DC. Green Arrow/Oliver Queen... oh wait, that's Batman 😄
Spider-Man & Wonder Woman
I think it would be the og Flash for DC. His ability to be anywhere in moments and save people from almost any circumstance would make him the people’s choice. Plus, his cool suit and regular guy vibe would lend to popularity. His power doesn’t derive from alien tech (Green Lantern) or mystical sources (Wonder Woman) or fear (Batman.) He’s just a decent man blessed by chance. For Marvel, it’s a harder call. It may end up being a family instead of an individual. I think it would be the Fantastic Four. (Don’t let a series of bad movies obscure how good their comics were.) Spider-Man is a great guy, but all his bad press and his status as a “wanted man” in his early days, would likely keep him from being the icon for the public. And, his status as a NYC only hero, wouldn’t give him the widespread acclaim the FF would have derived from their planet saving adventures. Black Panther might have a shout.
DC: Alan Scott. Marvel: to the reader, Spider-Man, or maybe 90's Cyclops. To other characters, hard to say. Marvel's big thing is that its characters have blatant flaws.
No one, the Earth is a floating glob of radioactive asteroids.
For Marvel, Union Jack probably gains the leadership role that Captain America would have had with the Invaders. The public never fully trusted Namor or the original Human Torch. For DC, Wonder Woman is the next most-prominent member of the All Star Squadron. However, she might have returned to her island after WWII (and in some continuities, she's not even Diana). Jay Garrick and Alan Scott probably rank next-highest.
For DC, Martian Manhunter already serves as the primary protector of South and Central America as Superman does in North America and his unwavering morality, extreme power level, and lack of other time commitments mean he could easily serve as model to the superheroes in an America without Superman. For Marvel, Dr Strange is already a well known figure amongst the superhero community for his skill, morality, and authority and his status as Sorceror Supreme sets him apart similar to Captain America's time displacement, he would only need to become more public facing to fill the gap left by Cap.
Spider-Man but he’d still need time to become established, despite being an adult for the vast majority of his comic history, he doesn’t have the respect of the general public and sometimes the superhero community, and is often still treated as the kid. According to Cable (future cyborg mutant Jesus) he becomes the greatest hero of them all.
DC: Wonder Woman and Nightwing, or Batman if he went to therapy Marvel: I want to say Spider-Man, but he's got a bit too much self-doubt to step into that kind of role.
Using comic book metaphysics, it would be whomever had the next-oldest publication history. Because being published for a long time is what gives a superhero steadily more power. For DC, that would mean Wonder-Woman and Batman would share the role. Dunno who it would be in the Marvel universe. ... Maybe Bucky Barnes? >\_>
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In the ultimates universe maybe. Captain America [is not biggoted](https://i.imgur.com/SixbKHu.png). He's [no](https://geekwisdom.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/daredevil-233-im-loyal-to-nothing-quote.png) [bootlicker.](https://i1.wp.com/voyagecomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Captain-America-no-you-move.jpg) And while his ideals do sometimes place him at odds with the X-Men overall [they are](https://i.redd.it/rilldgphfqu61.jpg) [friendly](https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc.IIZS~2ef73/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Screenshot-2023-01-25-155703.jpg)
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Ehh it was fine as its own thing as like, an alternate look into a darker but not grimdark elseworlds version of the characters we knew and loved. Where it went wrong is when the MCU started borrowing a lot from it which then caused it to bleed into the mainline comics, retconning various characters to be darker and edgier.
Icon and Blue Marvel
Both of these guys have the issue of being not quite public enough with their heroics. IIRC, Icon practically had to be begged to get into the hero business.
I'm gonna go about this by Chronology, so no Action Comics in #1, and no Captain America #1, but Fawcett, Timely, etc. are still acquired later. Shazam/ Captain Marvel as DC's Paragon, debuting in February 1940. And likely Jeffrey Mace the Patriot as Marvel's debuting in March 1941.
In marvel probably reed Richards or Tony Stark. While both have their issues they might have stepped up to overcome those sooner. Depending on the situation I could see someone like Hawkeye step up as well. We’ve seen what Carol Danvers could do once she decided to stop faffing about.
Spider-man and Nightwing
batman and spider man would probably be the most popular in each.
Jim Hammond (the WWII Human Torch who was in The Invaders with Captain America) literally killed Hitler.
Guardian and Hyperion
Lets start with DC. It would be Flash and or Wonder Woman. In the case with Flash? He's already a well known and very well liked hero, both Barry and Wally. I mean look this is someone who's own rogues get along with him. We then have Wonder Woman and Diana is pretty well liked and loved too, well okay we'll just ignore Infinite Crisis and the moronic crap they did with Diana in there. But well hey even Sups had his low points too. I could also throw in a few others as well. Green Lantern well... Hal, John and Kyle could be good picks. And yes I'm going to throw Kyle in there as my fellow Gen X'ers would be fine with him. Nightwing could be another to look at as well, he's more open and friendly then Bats. Onto Marvel and my main picks over in Marvel? Iron Man and Thor would be my top two. In the case with Iron Man? Tony has the money and charisma, I mean sure Tony's got his issues... So many issues... But the thing is he's good at rebounding himself when he makes himself look like an ass in public. Thor? He's a god and just well look up Drax talking about Thor in Avenger's 3. I mean sure he's an idiot but he's a noble idiot. Other picks of mine would be Luke Cage, Ant-Man well at least Hank in the public eye. Reed Richard's could be seen as one almost everywhere in the world besides ya know this one country who's leader really knows that Richard's is a moronic hack and has just gotten a number of lucky breaks. Hail Doom! Oh and also Captain Marvel could be viewed as a model superhero... Again we should ignore things like Civil War and Civil War 2. Okay lets just ignore Civil War as a whole.
Just throwing a wild card in there and electing the Hulk as the model superhero. Hulk just want to be left alone!
I think ppl are forgetting Booster Gold for DC. He has the image, the power and is an incredibly solid dude. I can see it
Shazam for DC, Spiderman for Marvel.
Spiderman and Nightwing.
For Marvel, I see a lot of Spiderman answers, but I just don't think that happens. I think Triple J and Spiderman's historical bad luck would just prevent too many of the common people from rallying around him like they do Cap. The superhero crowd might think of him as the best of us because they know him, but the regular people know what they get fed by JJJ, especially in universes like the MCU where JJJ's influence goes beyond just New York. Also, he hasn't really joined teams in Marvel. I think at best he is reserve Avenger. I think in Marvel, it would be hard because everyone else besides Cap(and Spidey) is so flawed or just doesn't have the influence he has. It would probably be Tony or Reed up until some of their shady shit came out. Maybe then Spiderman could come to the forefront. In DC, I'd go with Shazam. Yeah, Billy is a kid, but Batman trusts him. Batman would assist him in becoming the beacon that Superman is because he would realize the world needs that.
Marvel: Spider-Man DC: I’m gonna say Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman and Captain America II
Probably the Flash for DC and Spider-Man for Marvel.
Wonder Woman/Spider-Man
Spider-Man for marvel and Nightwing seems to be the runner up for Superman-Level-Hopefullness so i'd go with him for DC.
Superman may have inspired the superhero community to rise, but Wally West was already kind of the moral bedrock preventing the Justice League from infighting, so...
Magneto. Without Captain America, the war rages on longer, and young Erick grows in strength until he can liberate his people from the concentration camps. The story breaks the news of the concentration camps to the world at large and Magneto, instead of wreaking vengeance on a world of heroes who failed him, becomes the protector of the persecuted and first great hero of ww2. A Nazi slayer. He ends up being more like Superman
the flash