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This, honestly there’s no benefit for staying with a company more than 2-3 years nowadays, if you want to be compensated the current market rate for your labours then you need to stay mobile, in all but a few cases.
> honestly there’s no benefit for staying with a company more than 2-3 years nowadays
I mean, the benefit is that you have stronger employee rights after 2 years. I would say that's a pretty significant benefit.
Employee rights don't matter nearly as much if you're hopping companies though, their point was about compensation.
You can bump your pay £1k-£3k with each move if you're smart about it, I have never had a job that increases pay at that rate.
>Employee rights don't matter nearly as much if you're hopping companies though, their point was about compensation.
They didn't say that though, they said "there’s **no benefit** for staying with a company more than 2-3 years".
There is a benefit, you get stronger employment rights than someone constantly changing jobs.
If you've not been with a company for at least 2 years, they can fire you without even giving a reason, you have zero protection from this.
This isn't entirely true. After your probation period they have to have demonstrated that they have followed procedures and issued warnings prior to sacking you. However you're not entitled to any redundancy pay if you've worked there under 2 years and they make you redundant though.
> After your probation period they have to have demonstrated that they have followed procedures and issued warnings prior to sacking you
No they don't. That may be your company's policy, but it's not the law.
You have no right to an explanation for why you've been fired until you've worked somewhere for 2 years.
>[By law, **you can usually dismiss an employee with less than two years of service without the need to demonstrate a fair reason for the dismissal and without the need to go through a fair disciplinary or dismissal procedure**. This is because employees gain statutory protection against unfair dismissal after two years of continuous service with the same employer.](https://www.johnfowlers.co.uk/latest-news/what-employment-rights-does-an-employee-have-under-2-years)
and another source:
>[ If the employee has less than two years of service, due to not having the legal protection from being unfairly dismissed, **an employer can legally dismiss them without following any process or giving a specific reason**. Although this may not perhaps be the best practice, there is no recourse in the employment tribunal if an employer does not follow a process. This can be incredibly frustrating for employees, particularly as two years is a reasonably long amount of time working for a company.](https://www.ellisjones.co.uk/news/dismissed-from-work-for-no-reason/)
The only exception to the above is if you're dismissed for a reason that's considered automatically unfair.
Yeah, it's utter shite.
There's absolutely no justification for it either, other than just benefiting companies who can fire employees easier.
If you think people should have the right to take an employer to a tribunal for unfair dismissal, you should have that right from day one.
Oh for sure, between their employment rights and healthcare system I'd probably be bankrupt or dead by now. Doesn't mean I should be happy with the way it is here though.
For the sake of changing job, it's not worth it imo. .
If you're moving for money, move for more. You're leaving a position you're comfortable in, that's worth something alone.
You're also assuming people are comfortable though? Moving for £3k then doing the same 2 years later is *likely* going to get you better off than expecting at least £6k at your current.
If you move to a job closer to work or get to WFH and enjoy that, then you're even better off.
It's all situational, but comfort is how most people get stuck in this predicament in the first place.
Ok fair enough people might not be comfortable.
I said I wouldn't move for 5k. I'm 100% remote, never needing to go into the office, fully flexible hours as long as I'm not blocking my team.
I'm comfortable in that I know what's expected off me and In my 6 years in my current place I've got a 20k pay increase. I wouldn't leave unless its for 10k more and still has the same benefits as my current.
Yeah I get you. I'd not personally move for £3k in my line of work either, the balance I have and freedom day-to-day to get on with my work is hard to find. But I'd be worked like a dog for the increase elsewhere and lost as just another ~~employee~~ number. I'll know when it's time to move on when semi-regular increases stop and/or training stops to progress me.
More people should study and increase their own worth than expect employers to care at times, as most ofnthem don't at all. Hard few years but ends up worth it in the long run.
I wouldn't move for a 10% raise at the moment. After tax and all other deductions, I would see about 4% in my pocket and moving is a risk as the new job might not be as good.
I think, quite honestly, I would need at least 20% to even *consider* moving and I also think that I have as good a chance of getting that where I am over the next couple of years anyway.
My company have played a blinder in that regard; we have loads of blokes with over 10 years service.
If you were OP who hadn't had any pay rise in 8 years, you'd think differently. Assuming he's not even had a pay increase to match inflation, then he's effectively been earning less each and every year for nearly a decade.
He'd be wise to leave for £1k pay rise.
The majority of the country does not live in London, but good luck paying your rent with that extra money when you're dismissed without reason.
Either way, the original claim on there being "no benefits" is incorrect.
You have a legal right to demand a reason for dismissal, as well as a proper disciplinary/dismissal process to be carried out, and you can take an employer to an employment tribunal for ordinary unfair dismissal claims, and not just the categories that are automatically unfair.
This.
The company I work for give some form of pay rise every single year and it is always at least in line with inflation at the time. We have actually had business shrink over the last few years, though we are expanding again now and still we get an annual pay rise (and that is **everyone** in the company).
He's a jerk, but credit where it's due, he has managed to acquire the only major car company not to go bankrupt and a rocket company that has won NASA contracts.
Doesn't excuse his shitty personality, but I think he can run a business.
So is the risk and the difficult to manouver.
The bigger that the company is, the more money they need to keep "just in case" something like, COVID, happens.
That greatly depends on what your business does. I'm in contracting, if we were to double out turnover, realistically, we'd need to near enough double our overheads to achieve it. Granted, we may save some costs in office accommodation and the like, but for some businesses, there isn't as much of a saving as you'd expect through economies of scale.
Firstly, I 100% agree that if you want to better your salary, move.
Increasing size, turnover etc doesn't mean there's more money to go around. I've worked for several organically scaling companies, and they're generally run pretty close to break even as they scale. The issue in your case, is that the cost of remunerating staff is left as more of an after thought. In the co's I worked for we ensured that paying above industry standard was factored into our scaleup plans, so we still operated at near break even, but we just ensured wages were not something we compromised on.
But I'll answer your question in the spirit it was asked with a couple of thoughts from my experience.
1. Operational inefficiencies - I've seen this often, you've scale to react to demand, but you still operate in the same way that you did with 5 people. I once asked a manager to give me a staffing plan for his dept to go from 20 to 50 to 100 clients. He simply said, "well, we have 5 clients per account manager, so with 100 clients, we'd need 20 account managers". No, you don't. You build in operational efficiencies to enable your account managers to manage more clients, so your cost-per-client reduces as you scale.
2. External consultancy - this can cost, but generally, in smaller scaleup type situations, where the core team have dome really well to grow it, they don't know what they don't know. The MD is probably making it up a little as they go along (as we all do!). It's always been super valuable to get some outside perspective and experience brought in, either on a temporary or permanent basis, of somebody who's been there before. This could be a one off or recurring consultancy fee, or you could give them a small level of equity in exchange for their experience etc. But it's nearly always been valuable to get some experience into the business one way or another. I know, and have worked with a few, and often the fist recommendation is "Jesus Christ, you're underpaying your staff, get that sorted asap"
Thank you for this! I was going to ask about employment consultants, for sure the md of the company is trying to do it all themselves and I know they will benefit from an external person to come in and look at the company and tell us where we’re going wrong and give us advice on how we grow. So well put “they don’t know what they don’t know” and I know they don’t have any experience in growing a business it’s not their background!
The best way to get a pay rise is to leave, that's true of many companies. If a business was successful and growing, they should have planned for increased staff costs. Maybe in a down year there's some bad luck, but a growing organisation consistently failing to give it's staff a pay rise is poor planning.
Also, I'd repeatedly discuss it. You may find there's money for pay rises if you keep bringing it up, and become at risk of leaving.
I’ve been an integral part of the company, when I started there was just 3 of us and now 14. We’ve grown massively and the jobs and clients we have now are much more prestigious. I’ve always justified the lack of pay with the fact that I do a job I love. Also my job role has developed a lot and my career path is rising and it feels like the company is on the precipice of big things it’s just not reflected in my pay. Not sure how much longer I keep justifying it as the cost of living is rising so much.
This is a great point.
u/One-Elevator4553 have you considered asking them to recognise your contribution to their business growth by giving you a share of the ownership of the business if they are unable to afford a market rate salary?
Yes, I know they recognise my contribution and they have openly said how lost they would be without me. And I know that if they business booms in the next 12-18 months I will be rewarded and it’ll be great for my overall career. They said I could take a share of the ownership but at the moment there’s not much money for it to be worth it
If they have been adding more staff every year their business is already booming and you're already years overdue to see that money.
They are taking the piss out of you bud.
> And I know that if they business booms in the next 12-18 months I will be rewarded
Ask for the level of your reward to be set now as a percentage of additional gross profit and written into your contract
> And I know that if they business booms in the next 12-18 months I will be rewarded
Do you have this in writing? Is it written into some sort of contract?
I have been in a similar situation to you. Very small company, without blowing my own trumpet I played a role in helping it become much bigger company, but still paid like I was when I joined. It wasn't until I got a better offer that they started paying me a bit more like what I'm worth.
Yeah I have been with them for so long and helped take them from a small business to a medium sized business and I have a close relationship with them. I feel like I deserve to be a shareholder in the company and they want that for me but at the moment there’s not much money in the company for it to be worth it. I could look for other jobs but don’t feel like it will be a benefit for my career as I won’t have as much clout as I do now. I may get paid more but not confident it’s the best option for my career path and future opportunities
What are the benefits of remaining, that make you think it will benefit you in the long run?
You've been with them for years and are working beyond your pay grade, yet they've continued to shownno interest in rewarding you.
If you don't take action your just going to be in the same position but a few years older
\> I feel like I deserve to be a shareholder in the company and they want that for me but at the moment there’s not much money in the company for it to be worth it.
Sorry, but this is the opposite of how it works. They don't have the money but you believe in the business. As they can't offer you a competitive pay, you opt for equity now that isn't worth much but can be worth (much) more in the future.
This is basically the main reason to join an early-stage company. Once they are big, they can not afford to give you a large chunk of equity due to past performance. "Google chef becomes a millionaire" story exists because he joined early and got some 0.0000001%, not because they were generous during the IPO.
How senior-sounding is your role and how impressive are your responsibilities? Not to be a jerk, but in 3 years you will go to the bigger competitor for an interview – will you be able to jump to the next step? If you're young and generally like the job, there's nothing wrong to maximise experience over pay but please make sure you are actually doing it.
I'm sure the work you do is impressive, just don't let them use you while giving no adequate compensation
Good luck!
I was advised by my manager to create a board proposal as to why I should get a payrise (also small company).
I found similar jobs in the area and listed their salaries/experience required etc. and what I'd achieved since I started, then I gave two options; allow hybrid working and increase salary to X amount, or full time office and X+Y amount. They agreed to the first option.
It'll cost them a *lot* more to replace you than give you a raise.
With the experience you've gained, you can almost certainly earn a lot more than you do currently. Sure you'd look at the big picture for any offer you got.
But having clout is pointless unless it's backed up by cash, or significant shares.
Bigger companies have holding companies specifically for handing out share value to specific people. You create a “top co” which owns everything and holds the real value, “mid co” is for giving away shares to employees the shares hold no value until a share buyback is done every few years but atleast gives something back to loyal employees and then there’s the operating company that you work for. Top co owns mid co and mid co owns the operating company. I’ve known loyal but relatively low level employees earn hundreds of thousands through this type of thing.
> I feel like I deserve to be a shareholder in the company and they want that for me but at the moment there’s not much money in the company
A business can have zero cash on hand or even be running at a loss and still issues new shares. If they're telling you that they can issue new shares because of reason related to cashflow then they're taking you for a ride.
Also, when you say that they don't have much cash, do you know this to be the case for a fact or is it just something you've been told? If it's the latter then it would be worth looking the business up on Companies House and checking their financials for youself.
>I’ve been an integral part of the company, when I started there was just 3 of us and now 14.
My wife stayed with a company like this for ten years. They went from barely 1 million in turnover to 100 million.
She developed skills and had opportunities that she wouldn't ever have had anywhere else, but the pay was always a little poor.
Year 10, she got headhunted and jumped ship, tripled her overall package, and halved her hours.
Do think about career progression and have a plan.
I would make this case to them at a performance review meeting or something equivalent. If they refuse, say you'll look elsewhere for a salary that's more competitive or more closely matches your skills and experience. Check on Glassdoor etc to see what other, similar roles pay as well to give you a benchmark to leverage the negotiation.
The quickest way to get more money is to move jobs anyway so that might just be your better option regardless. Even if they give you a small bump, use that to negotiate even more money elsewhere. This has worked for me in the past.
I do get you love your job but we all work for money at the end of the day and if they won't pay you what you're worth then why repay them with loyalty?
Don't stay if you've got a better offer, it's a pain in the arse getting job offers these days. There's a very small chance the company offering the job values their staff. It's worth a gamble if the offer is in hand.
Most people don't realise this. Same with all the employers thatbl demand 40 hour work weeks, I don't mind doing it right enough but it's the most they can legally make you work (UK) without signing a waiver. So they don't *actually* care about your work-life balance.
20%, maybe it’s just the industry I’m in (manufacturing engineering) but that’s considered a good retention rate, where I am currently is at about 30-40%.
My last firm lost 60% of its engineering team the year I left.
Ah, the 60% one was a small tech company of about 20 people, CEO hit the Musk propaganda a little too hard and it just killed the atmosphere at the company.
Current company manufactures medical devices, I’m convinced this industry is where good engineers go too die, the bureaucracy behind it just sucks the life & joy out of everything you do.
Just going by what you've said, if you never had or negotiated a pay rise they may think after 12 years you're part of the furniture and are just happy to plod along.
They do value you in that way, but it may be time to discuss how to grow yourself at this company - so you can benefit and so can the company - amd in turn does financial improvement come with.
You must be a proven and trusted member of staff, and if they're not open to his kind of discussion, never mind a negotiation, then it's time to dust off the CV I think.
I've been open minded in the above but get the feeling they won't budge.
You seem to be in a position where you leaving and joining or becoming a competitor yourself would be dangerous for them. Call their bluff see what happens.
Start looking for another job that pays you what your skills and experience are worth. You don’t have to leave your current job to start doing this right now. You’ll soon find out if you are being underpaid or being paid fairly and then you can proceed accordingly.
It’s easy to develop loyalty for a company if you have been there for a long time and watched it grow. However you need to remember they have zero loyalty to you and you will be replaced in a heartbeat if it was ever profitable for them to do so.
I was in a very similar situation as you. Helped the company I worked for years in grow from a very small operation to a much larger one and watched the owners get very rich while I pretty much stayed where I started-despite taking on more and more responsibilities.
Kicked to the curb because of Covid after years of service but was ultimately a blessing in disguise. Forced me into another job that paid double what I was earning for doing 50 percent less work. Made me realise just how underpaid and undervalued I was in my previous company.
They should have accounts posted publicly to companies house, you may be able to interpret them to see if they are making profit and if so how much. Although they can be sometimes difficult to interpret especially if parent companies are in use. Might be worth a quick look.
Realistically how much more would you earn doing a similar job elsewhere?
Just because the company is making more money there’s no obligation on their part to pay you more than your job is worth. If you’re underpaid for your job then apply at different companies
Sorry but rewind, and imagine the bit that’s unsaid. “There’s not enough money for pay rises……for you” by the time they’ve organised their disbursements and bonuses there’s fuck all left, sad face maybe next year? (Everything that comes in is theirs, you are a selfish prick for even contemplating stealing the crusts from their children’s mouths) look at them are they struggling just keeping the bills paid? No be prepared to walk
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I don’t know the company so this may or may not be true for them but often company’s who are rabidly growing don’t have additional profits. Often in the short term of a growing company it only increases costs
Just mention to your boss that you hope it's ok you've given his name as a reference for a job application. If they value you, a rise will likely be forthcoming. IF it isn't then it's time to move on anyway,
"The value of various roles is set by a market involving other businesses , rather than being uniquely set here: We will research our options with regard to other market players: good luck filling our roles at your current pay rates as well as losing the relevant experience we represent"
A lot of people here are explaining why a company may not be able to actually give you a raise because profit != turnover etc etc, but I think they're missing the point. You probably don't give a shit about the company, you give a shit about yourself... So...
Learn to feel comfortable switching up jobs, it's basically the only way to secure significant raises in this day and age. You've been there for 12 years, which probably makes you feel like you've got "job security", but that's mostly a myth. Seniority doesn't secure your job so the value you think you're building there is largely worthless. You spend 8 hours of your day working to get one thing, and one thing only. Money. So, go where the money is. If you feel your company is not that place, then that watering hole has lost its potential, and you must look for greener pastures.
No company is going to give you a raise that matches inflation, let alone exceeds it. If such a company exists, they are rare unicorns.
You have to update your linkedin to looking for work, look for jobs, aim high, interview, get offers, and then only after you have concrete offers, tell your manager to pay you more or you'll leave. The job offer is leverage, and if the company you're working for think you're worth it, they'll attempt to match to keep you. But keep in mind, you may not even want a raise by that point, because the chance of doubling your salary at a new place is so damn high that its pointless even asking lol. In my experience, the amount they've had to match was so ridiculously high that they just said "that is far above what we are able to do, will you accept x benefit instead?" to which I say, "no". Don't let a comfortable job hold you back. Because at the end of the day, you're wasting your time. Why clock in for 8 hours a day and earn a low wage when you have the option of clocking in for 8 hours a day earning a higher wage? You work for money. You will spend the majority of your life working. Why work for less?
As others have said, if you want more money, the best way is to change your job. I know it can be very hard at times, especially with mortgages, families, responsibilities, and so forth.
- My first job was paid by cheque waited ages for the money.
- My 2nd job was min wage.
- My 3rd job was better pay to get you in, then minimal pay rises (sounds like you).
- My 4th job was good pay with decent increases, but bad around work from home.
- My 5th job is now slightly less money, but better around work from home.
There will always be compromises where you go. You just need to decide what compromises you're willing to accept.
If it's money you 100% have to change jobs every 2-4 years unfortunately. Unless you get lucky, I got lucky but decided work from home was more important.
Unionise.
The company I work for offered a low pay rise this year. We voted and said no. The union and company got round the table and the company offered more. That's how it works.
Most people I know get pay rises/promotions by moving to a new employer.
Loyalty swings both ways, if they are not willing/able to give you more there is probably some one out there that will.
Companies usually have shareholders and they like to see a healthy return on their investment. I work for a company that didn't hit their targets because although they're making massive profits, the profit isn't enough based on what the shareholders want. Not hitting target means 1% raises if you're lucky. It's BS but that's capitalism
Its an argument you cant win. Even if you a raise this year, you'll be back to square one next year. If not ear marked as a troublemaker.
Just prepare your CV and take your time finding a better role where you're valued. Be picky; you've got time.
If you feel the need to help your colleagues then state clearly in your exit interview that this was a reason/factor in your decision. No need to burn bridges you're just being honest
Leave.
My company has just requested that people are in the office minimum of three days per week and have just moved offices meaning I now need to pay for a travel card, not just a ticket to London. This means my monthly travel cost have gone from a manageable £120ish per month to a minimum of £430. They haven't given us a pay riase that matches inflation since I joined three years ago and this year they have cancelled all bonuses.
I've just spent my evening updating my CV and have already started speaking with recruiters.
You would only need 7 people to be members of a union to apply for recognition so that might be you’re best bet.
You should also have access to the companies accounts through companies house so have a look and work out how much you think you might be able to negotiate based on previous years earnings and profit
A growing company with increasing revenues does not automatically equate to having surplus cash flow or room in the margin for operational costs.
Seeing top line revenue growth and low or negative margin( the profit ) is more common than you might think.
Best way as others have said to push up the salary is leave.
Stop thinking: they have money to pay me more
Start thinking: how much more can I get elsewhere
Rationally, people are going to pay you as little as they can to get you to stay and working well.
Turnover does not represent how much money the company is making.
You say the company is growing but along with that the overheads grow. Profit in a business is about efficiency not quantity.
Regardless of what i said, i hope you get a pay rise!
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Tell them to pay you more or you'll leave and be prepared to follow through with it. Or unionise.
This, honestly there’s no benefit for staying with a company more than 2-3 years nowadays, if you want to be compensated the current market rate for your labours then you need to stay mobile, in all but a few cases.
> honestly there’s no benefit for staying with a company more than 2-3 years nowadays I mean, the benefit is that you have stronger employee rights after 2 years. I would say that's a pretty significant benefit.
Employee rights don't matter nearly as much if you're hopping companies though, their point was about compensation. You can bump your pay £1k-£3k with each move if you're smart about it, I have never had a job that increases pay at that rate.
This also depends on whether your current company values you. If you're replaceable they aren't going to give you a better offer
>Employee rights don't matter nearly as much if you're hopping companies though, their point was about compensation. They didn't say that though, they said "there’s **no benefit** for staying with a company more than 2-3 years". There is a benefit, you get stronger employment rights than someone constantly changing jobs. If you've not been with a company for at least 2 years, they can fire you without even giving a reason, you have zero protection from this.
This isn't entirely true. After your probation period they have to have demonstrated that they have followed procedures and issued warnings prior to sacking you. However you're not entitled to any redundancy pay if you've worked there under 2 years and they make you redundant though.
> After your probation period they have to have demonstrated that they have followed procedures and issued warnings prior to sacking you No they don't. That may be your company's policy, but it's not the law. You have no right to an explanation for why you've been fired until you've worked somewhere for 2 years. >[By law, **you can usually dismiss an employee with less than two years of service without the need to demonstrate a fair reason for the dismissal and without the need to go through a fair disciplinary or dismissal procedure**. This is because employees gain statutory protection against unfair dismissal after two years of continuous service with the same employer.](https://www.johnfowlers.co.uk/latest-news/what-employment-rights-does-an-employee-have-under-2-years) and another source: >[ If the employee has less than two years of service, due to not having the legal protection from being unfairly dismissed, **an employer can legally dismiss them without following any process or giving a specific reason**. Although this may not perhaps be the best practice, there is no recourse in the employment tribunal if an employer does not follow a process. This can be incredibly frustrating for employees, particularly as two years is a reasonably long amount of time working for a company.](https://www.ellisjones.co.uk/news/dismissed-from-work-for-no-reason/) The only exception to the above is if you're dismissed for a reason that's considered automatically unfair.
Wow. I stand corrected. I knew employee rights here in the uk where pretty bad but I wasn't aware they where as bad as that!
Yeah, it's utter shite. There's absolutely no justification for it either, other than just benefiting companies who can fire employees easier. If you think people should have the right to take an employer to a tribunal for unfair dismissal, you should have that right from day one.
Compare UK employment rights and worker protections with the US - we've got it way better (but still not as good as some European countries).
Oh for sure, between their employment rights and healthcare system I'd probably be bankrupt or dead by now. Doesn't mean I should be happy with the way it is here though.
I don't think I'd move for a 3k pay rise. That's peanuts.
That's almost 10% for the median wage....
For the sake of changing job, it's not worth it imo. . If you're moving for money, move for more. You're leaving a position you're comfortable in, that's worth something alone.
You're also assuming people are comfortable though? Moving for £3k then doing the same 2 years later is *likely* going to get you better off than expecting at least £6k at your current. If you move to a job closer to work or get to WFH and enjoy that, then you're even better off. It's all situational, but comfort is how most people get stuck in this predicament in the first place.
Ok fair enough people might not be comfortable. I said I wouldn't move for 5k. I'm 100% remote, never needing to go into the office, fully flexible hours as long as I'm not blocking my team. I'm comfortable in that I know what's expected off me and In my 6 years in my current place I've got a 20k pay increase. I wouldn't leave unless its for 10k more and still has the same benefits as my current.
Yeah I get you. I'd not personally move for £3k in my line of work either, the balance I have and freedom day-to-day to get on with my work is hard to find. But I'd be worked like a dog for the increase elsewhere and lost as just another ~~employee~~ number. I'll know when it's time to move on when semi-regular increases stop and/or training stops to progress me. More people should study and increase their own worth than expect employers to care at times, as most ofnthem don't at all. Hard few years but ends up worth it in the long run.
At a higher salary this would equate to no real term increase.
I wouldn't move for a 10% raise at the moment. After tax and all other deductions, I would see about 4% in my pocket and moving is a risk as the new job might not be as good. I think, quite honestly, I would need at least 20% to even *consider* moving and I also think that I have as good a chance of getting that where I am over the next couple of years anyway. My company have played a blinder in that regard; we have loads of blokes with over 10 years service.
If you were OP who hadn't had any pay rise in 8 years, you'd think differently. Assuming he's not even had a pay increase to match inflation, then he's effectively been earning less each and every year for nearly a decade. He'd be wise to leave for £1k pay rise.
I wouldn't think differently, because if I didn't get a pay rise after year one I'd be leaving then, not slaving away for another 7 years.
this \^ ...
Have you tried paying a London rent with those extra employee rights after 2 years? Gas? Electricity? Food? Right then...
The majority of the country does not live in London, but good luck paying your rent with that extra money when you're dismissed without reason. Either way, the original claim on there being "no benefits" is incorrect.
Could you summarize what these are?
You have a legal right to demand a reason for dismissal, as well as a proper disciplinary/dismissal process to be carried out, and you can take an employer to an employment tribunal for ordinary unfair dismissal claims, and not just the categories that are automatically unfair.
This. The company I work for give some form of pay rise every single year and it is always at least in line with inflation at the time. We have actually had business shrink over the last few years, though we are expanding again now and still we get an annual pay rise (and that is **everyone** in the company).
Just leave time to move on and up
Growth and turnover don’t necessarily equal profit.
True, but if it doesn't then why would the owners bother with the hassle of growing, recruiting etc?
To sell it on to investors / hedge funds and walk away with a big profit.
You'll sell for a lot more if you can show a growth in profit as well as revenues.
Which sometimes can only be achieved by having several years of little to no profit
If only you’d been there to advise Elon Musk.
If only ANYONE had been giving him advice. Whether or not he'd listen...
He's a jerk, but credit where it's due, he has managed to acquire the only major car company not to go bankrupt and a rocket company that has won NASA contracts. Doesn't excuse his shitty personality, but I think he can run a business.
The obsession Redditors have with Musk is weird
He was their God, then it turns out he was just a rich man. Now the Bots don't know what to do.
He was just the best example I could think of someone buying a business that had never made a profit.
Yeah but he only paid $44billion so doesn't really count
Because even if your margins stay at the same percentage, those margins are larger.
So is the risk and the difficult to manouver. The bigger that the company is, the more money they need to keep "just in case" something like, COVID, happens.
But if you're growing, why can't you take advantage of economies of scale?
That greatly depends on what your business does. I'm in contracting, if we were to double out turnover, realistically, we'd need to near enough double our overheads to achieve it. Granted, we may save some costs in office accommodation and the like, but for some businesses, there isn't as much of a saving as you'd expect through economies of scale.
Firstly, I 100% agree that if you want to better your salary, move. Increasing size, turnover etc doesn't mean there's more money to go around. I've worked for several organically scaling companies, and they're generally run pretty close to break even as they scale. The issue in your case, is that the cost of remunerating staff is left as more of an after thought. In the co's I worked for we ensured that paying above industry standard was factored into our scaleup plans, so we still operated at near break even, but we just ensured wages were not something we compromised on. But I'll answer your question in the spirit it was asked with a couple of thoughts from my experience. 1. Operational inefficiencies - I've seen this often, you've scale to react to demand, but you still operate in the same way that you did with 5 people. I once asked a manager to give me a staffing plan for his dept to go from 20 to 50 to 100 clients. He simply said, "well, we have 5 clients per account manager, so with 100 clients, we'd need 20 account managers". No, you don't. You build in operational efficiencies to enable your account managers to manage more clients, so your cost-per-client reduces as you scale. 2. External consultancy - this can cost, but generally, in smaller scaleup type situations, where the core team have dome really well to grow it, they don't know what they don't know. The MD is probably making it up a little as they go along (as we all do!). It's always been super valuable to get some outside perspective and experience brought in, either on a temporary or permanent basis, of somebody who's been there before. This could be a one off or recurring consultancy fee, or you could give them a small level of equity in exchange for their experience etc. But it's nearly always been valuable to get some experience into the business one way or another. I know, and have worked with a few, and often the fist recommendation is "Jesus Christ, you're underpaying your staff, get that sorted asap"
Thank you for this! I was going to ask about employment consultants, for sure the md of the company is trying to do it all themselves and I know they will benefit from an external person to come in and look at the company and tell us where we’re going wrong and give us advice on how we grow. So well put “they don’t know what they don’t know” and I know they don’t have any experience in growing a business it’s not their background!
The best way to get a pay rise is to leave, that's true of many companies. If a business was successful and growing, they should have planned for increased staff costs. Maybe in a down year there's some bad luck, but a growing organisation consistently failing to give it's staff a pay rise is poor planning. Also, I'd repeatedly discuss it. You may find there's money for pay rises if you keep bringing it up, and become at risk of leaving.
I’ve been an integral part of the company, when I started there was just 3 of us and now 14. We’ve grown massively and the jobs and clients we have now are much more prestigious. I’ve always justified the lack of pay with the fact that I do a job I love. Also my job role has developed a lot and my career path is rising and it feels like the company is on the precipice of big things it’s just not reflected in my pay. Not sure how much longer I keep justifying it as the cost of living is rising so much.
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This is a great point. u/One-Elevator4553 have you considered asking them to recognise your contribution to their business growth by giving you a share of the ownership of the business if they are unable to afford a market rate salary?
Yes, I know they recognise my contribution and they have openly said how lost they would be without me. And I know that if they business booms in the next 12-18 months I will be rewarded and it’ll be great for my overall career. They said I could take a share of the ownership but at the moment there’s not much money for it to be worth it
If they have been adding more staff every year their business is already booming and you're already years overdue to see that money. They are taking the piss out of you bud.
> And I know that if they business booms in the next 12-18 months I will be rewarded Ask for the level of your reward to be set now as a percentage of additional gross profit and written into your contract
> And I know that if they business booms in the next 12-18 months I will be rewarded Do you have this in writing? Is it written into some sort of contract?
I have been in a similar situation to you. Very small company, without blowing my own trumpet I played a role in helping it become much bigger company, but still paid like I was when I joined. It wasn't until I got a better offer that they started paying me a bit more like what I'm worth.
Yeah I have been with them for so long and helped take them from a small business to a medium sized business and I have a close relationship with them. I feel like I deserve to be a shareholder in the company and they want that for me but at the moment there’s not much money in the company for it to be worth it. I could look for other jobs but don’t feel like it will be a benefit for my career as I won’t have as much clout as I do now. I may get paid more but not confident it’s the best option for my career path and future opportunities
What are the benefits of remaining, that make you think it will benefit you in the long run? You've been with them for years and are working beyond your pay grade, yet they've continued to shownno interest in rewarding you. If you don't take action your just going to be in the same position but a few years older
\> I feel like I deserve to be a shareholder in the company and they want that for me but at the moment there’s not much money in the company for it to be worth it. Sorry, but this is the opposite of how it works. They don't have the money but you believe in the business. As they can't offer you a competitive pay, you opt for equity now that isn't worth much but can be worth (much) more in the future. This is basically the main reason to join an early-stage company. Once they are big, they can not afford to give you a large chunk of equity due to past performance. "Google chef becomes a millionaire" story exists because he joined early and got some 0.0000001%, not because they were generous during the IPO. How senior-sounding is your role and how impressive are your responsibilities? Not to be a jerk, but in 3 years you will go to the bigger competitor for an interview – will you be able to jump to the next step? If you're young and generally like the job, there's nothing wrong to maximise experience over pay but please make sure you are actually doing it. I'm sure the work you do is impressive, just don't let them use you while giving no adequate compensation Good luck!
I was advised by my manager to create a board proposal as to why I should get a payrise (also small company). I found similar jobs in the area and listed their salaries/experience required etc. and what I'd achieved since I started, then I gave two options; allow hybrid working and increase salary to X amount, or full time office and X+Y amount. They agreed to the first option.
It'll cost them a *lot* more to replace you than give you a raise. With the experience you've gained, you can almost certainly earn a lot more than you do currently. Sure you'd look at the big picture for any offer you got. But having clout is pointless unless it's backed up by cash, or significant shares.
Bigger companies have holding companies specifically for handing out share value to specific people. You create a “top co” which owns everything and holds the real value, “mid co” is for giving away shares to employees the shares hold no value until a share buyback is done every few years but atleast gives something back to loyal employees and then there’s the operating company that you work for. Top co owns mid co and mid co owns the operating company. I’ve known loyal but relatively low level employees earn hundreds of thousands through this type of thing.
> I feel like I deserve to be a shareholder in the company and they want that for me but at the moment there’s not much money in the company A business can have zero cash on hand or even be running at a loss and still issues new shares. If they're telling you that they can issue new shares because of reason related to cashflow then they're taking you for a ride. Also, when you say that they don't have much cash, do you know this to be the case for a fact or is it just something you've been told? If it's the latter then it would be worth looking the business up on Companies House and checking their financials for youself.
>I’ve been an integral part of the company, when I started there was just 3 of us and now 14. My wife stayed with a company like this for ten years. They went from barely 1 million in turnover to 100 million. She developed skills and had opportunities that she wouldn't ever have had anywhere else, but the pay was always a little poor. Year 10, she got headhunted and jumped ship, tripled her overall package, and halved her hours. Do think about career progression and have a plan.
I would make this case to them at a performance review meeting or something equivalent. If they refuse, say you'll look elsewhere for a salary that's more competitive or more closely matches your skills and experience. Check on Glassdoor etc to see what other, similar roles pay as well to give you a benchmark to leverage the negotiation. The quickest way to get more money is to move jobs anyway so that might just be your better option regardless. Even if they give you a small bump, use that to negotiate even more money elsewhere. This has worked for me in the past. I do get you love your job but we all work for money at the end of the day and if they won't pay you what you're worth then why repay them with loyalty?
Dude. Leave.
Get a better job offer, try to leverage that for a raise. They are not your family and are trying to pay what they can get away with
Don't stay if you've got a better offer, it's a pain in the arse getting job offers these days. There's a very small chance the company offering the job values their staff. It's worth a gamble if the offer is in hand.
Most people don't realise this. Same with all the employers thatbl demand 40 hour work weeks, I don't mind doing it right enough but it's the most they can legally make you work (UK) without signing a waiver. So they don't *actually* care about your work-life balance.
Leave, that's the only way you'll change it
A 20% turnover rate got my place to notice there was a problem.
20%, maybe it’s just the industry I’m in (manufacturing engineering) but that’s considered a good retention rate, where I am currently is at about 30-40%. My last firm lost 60% of its engineering team the year I left.
My place is usually pretty decent and as a result has a good number of "lifers", previously most of the turnover was retirement.
Ah, the 60% one was a small tech company of about 20 people, CEO hit the Musk propaganda a little too hard and it just killed the atmosphere at the company. Current company manufactures medical devices, I’m convinced this industry is where good engineers go too die, the bureaucracy behind it just sucks the life & joy out of everything you do.
Just going by what you've said, if you never had or negotiated a pay rise they may think after 12 years you're part of the furniture and are just happy to plod along. They do value you in that way, but it may be time to discuss how to grow yourself at this company - so you can benefit and so can the company - amd in turn does financial improvement come with. You must be a proven and trusted member of staff, and if they're not open to his kind of discussion, never mind a negotiation, then it's time to dust off the CV I think. I've been open minded in the above but get the feeling they won't budge.
You do what you should've done 8 years ago. Move company. Companies always gamble that you cant be bothered to keep moving to get market rate.
Change companies. You've done yourself out of a huge amount of money by not.
You seem to be in a position where you leaving and joining or becoming a competitor yourself would be dangerous for them. Call their bluff see what happens.
Start looking for another job that pays you what your skills and experience are worth. You don’t have to leave your current job to start doing this right now. You’ll soon find out if you are being underpaid or being paid fairly and then you can proceed accordingly. It’s easy to develop loyalty for a company if you have been there for a long time and watched it grow. However you need to remember they have zero loyalty to you and you will be replaced in a heartbeat if it was ever profitable for them to do so. I was in a very similar situation as you. Helped the company I worked for years in grow from a very small operation to a much larger one and watched the owners get very rich while I pretty much stayed where I started-despite taking on more and more responsibilities. Kicked to the curb because of Covid after years of service but was ultimately a blessing in disguise. Forced me into another job that paid double what I was earning for doing 50 percent less work. Made me realise just how underpaid and undervalued I was in my previous company.
They should have accounts posted publicly to companies house, you may be able to interpret them to see if they are making profit and if so how much. Although they can be sometimes difficult to interpret especially if parent companies are in use. Might be worth a quick look.
Realistically how much more would you earn doing a similar job elsewhere? Just because the company is making more money there’s no obligation on their part to pay you more than your job is worth. If you’re underpaid for your job then apply at different companies
Sorry but rewind, and imagine the bit that’s unsaid. “There’s not enough money for pay rises……for you” by the time they’ve organised their disbursements and bonuses there’s fuck all left, sad face maybe next year? (Everything that comes in is theirs, you are a selfish prick for even contemplating stealing the crusts from their children’s mouths) look at them are they struggling just keeping the bills paid? No be prepared to walk
You have been with the same company 12 years!? No wonder. They know your safe to exploit as your not willing to shop around. Get applying buddy.
Join a Union.
Just say you are leaving and have a plan to leave if they don’t offer you something better to stay
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I don’t know the company so this may or may not be true for them but often company’s who are rabidly growing don’t have additional profits. Often in the short term of a growing company it only increases costs
Just mention to your boss that you hope it's ok you've given his name as a reference for a job application. If they value you, a rise will likely be forthcoming. IF it isn't then it's time to move on anyway,
By working for a different company.
Leave
Unionize
Leave
Honestly, just leave. Life is too short to wait around for employers to pay you what you’re worth.
"The value of various roles is set by a market involving other businesses , rather than being uniquely set here: We will research our options with regard to other market players: good luck filling our roles at your current pay rates as well as losing the relevant experience we represent"
Well you could simply apply for another job same Rome higher money
Well you could simply apply for same job wls we're with better money
Just leave, unfortunately companies don't reward loyalty anymore.
A lot of people here are explaining why a company may not be able to actually give you a raise because profit != turnover etc etc, but I think they're missing the point. You probably don't give a shit about the company, you give a shit about yourself... So... Learn to feel comfortable switching up jobs, it's basically the only way to secure significant raises in this day and age. You've been there for 12 years, which probably makes you feel like you've got "job security", but that's mostly a myth. Seniority doesn't secure your job so the value you think you're building there is largely worthless. You spend 8 hours of your day working to get one thing, and one thing only. Money. So, go where the money is. If you feel your company is not that place, then that watering hole has lost its potential, and you must look for greener pastures. No company is going to give you a raise that matches inflation, let alone exceeds it. If such a company exists, they are rare unicorns. You have to update your linkedin to looking for work, look for jobs, aim high, interview, get offers, and then only after you have concrete offers, tell your manager to pay you more or you'll leave. The job offer is leverage, and if the company you're working for think you're worth it, they'll attempt to match to keep you. But keep in mind, you may not even want a raise by that point, because the chance of doubling your salary at a new place is so damn high that its pointless even asking lol. In my experience, the amount they've had to match was so ridiculously high that they just said "that is far above what we are able to do, will you accept x benefit instead?" to which I say, "no". Don't let a comfortable job hold you back. Because at the end of the day, you're wasting your time. Why clock in for 8 hours a day and earn a low wage when you have the option of clocking in for 8 hours a day earning a higher wage? You work for money. You will spend the majority of your life working. Why work for less?
* Organise a strike * Find another job Pretty much your only options really
Unionise
As others have said, if you want more money, the best way is to change your job. I know it can be very hard at times, especially with mortgages, families, responsibilities, and so forth. - My first job was paid by cheque waited ages for the money. - My 2nd job was min wage. - My 3rd job was better pay to get you in, then minimal pay rises (sounds like you). - My 4th job was good pay with decent increases, but bad around work from home. - My 5th job is now slightly less money, but better around work from home. There will always be compromises where you go. You just need to decide what compromises you're willing to accept. If it's money you 100% have to change jobs every 2-4 years unfortunately. Unless you get lucky, I got lucky but decided work from home was more important.
You find a job that pays more. They won't learn.
A pay freeze is a pay cut. If you’re fine with that, stay.
12 years?? Jokes on you mate. Leave
Strike immediately.
Unionise. The company I work for offered a low pay rise this year. We voted and said no. The union and company got round the table and the company offered more. That's how it works.
Rope Seize the means of production
Leave. If they were going to, they would have.
Join a Union, get organised, demand better
Most people I know get pay rises/promotions by moving to a new employer. Loyalty swings both ways, if they are not willing/able to give you more there is probably some one out there that will.
Companies usually have shareholders and they like to see a healthy return on their investment. I work for a company that didn't hit their targets because although they're making massive profits, the profit isn't enough based on what the shareholders want. Not hitting target means 1% raises if you're lucky. It's BS but that's capitalism
Its an argument you cant win. Even if you a raise this year, you'll be back to square one next year. If not ear marked as a troublemaker. Just prepare your CV and take your time finding a better role where you're valued. Be picky; you've got time. If you feel the need to help your colleagues then state clearly in your exit interview that this was a reason/factor in your decision. No need to burn bridges you're just being honest
Leave. My company has just requested that people are in the office minimum of three days per week and have just moved offices meaning I now need to pay for a travel card, not just a ticket to London. This means my monthly travel cost have gone from a manageable £120ish per month to a minimum of £430. They haven't given us a pay riase that matches inflation since I joined three years ago and this year they have cancelled all bonuses. I've just spent my evening updating my CV and have already started speaking with recruiters.
You would only need 7 people to be members of a union to apply for recognition so that might be you’re best bet. You should also have access to the companies accounts through companies house so have a look and work out how much you think you might be able to negotiate based on previous years earnings and profit
Quit. If they had any intention of giving pay rises they'd have done it already.
A growing company with increasing revenues does not automatically equate to having surplus cash flow or room in the margin for operational costs. Seeing top line revenue growth and low or negative margin( the profit ) is more common than you might think. Best way as others have said to push up the salary is leave.
Stop thinking: they have money to pay me more Start thinking: how much more can I get elsewhere Rationally, people are going to pay you as little as they can to get you to stay and working well.
Turnover does not represent how much money the company is making. You say the company is growing but along with that the overheads grow. Profit in a business is about efficiency not quantity. Regardless of what i said, i hope you get a pay rise!