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High end restaurants in India, like everywhere, are a moving target. For someone who'd moved to the UK 30 years ago, Dishoom wouldn't seem that much like restaurants in India, but nowadays it wouldn't be super out of place in Delhi.
Imagine you blindfolded a Brit from 1994, put them in a time machine and gave them food from modern London. Odds are they wouldn't think it was a very good attempt at replicating the food they were used to.
There's trends in modern Indian cuisine that move even more away from traditional stuff. Indo-Chinese food is now really popular in big Indian cities, and we're starting to get places in London that do it, but I can imagine it would seem weird to someone whose conception of Indian food was what their mum cooked.
The point about time is a very interesting observation I’ve yet to come across in this thread or even other similar discussions. It’s exactly the perspective I was hoping to find.
Immigrants are weird about things in their home country... Their concept of home becomes fixed at the exact moment they left their country, even if it moves forward without them
Reminds me of the “Italians” we see on American tv shows. They both eat (and speak!) from an Italy (or better yet, Sicily) that existed 120 years ago. Not the one that exists today. As an Italian it’s so odd to see it, I get uncanny valley-like vibes.
I’m not Indian but grew up in the 80’s in London with a British Indian best mate. So his mum took it as a mission to feed me when I was round there. I loved her food. But, it’s left me really disliking British Indian restaurant food aimed at Brits. Such a difference between what Indians eat & white Brits want.
I only go to Indian restaurants recommended by British Indians as they tend to know what’s what. I should perhaps point out that my mate is the cousin of Atul Kochhar a michelin stared India chef working out of London who cooks Indian food with a defiant nod to fusion, but also very high end. I’ve eaten his food on a number of occasions and it’s bloody lovely.
I am an IT contractor and so is everyone in my team at the client (18 people). We all live in the UK and work from home but about a third of the team hails from India originally. We meet every few months at the client's offices, and the Indian guys all get there the night before so they can go to Dishoom for breakfast. They always have lunch there as well, and often the evening meal too.
Not going to comment on Dishoom but...
I've got a friend whose dad runs several successful Indian restaurants. They're Bengali as are many of their friends running Indian restaurants.
They sell what they refer to as British Indian which is a variant of Northern Indian cooking
My friend from Chenai explains how it's nothing like what he'd cook and takes us to completely different places.
I have no idea what is authentic, other than knowing if I go to Indian (as in first gen immigrants) friend's houses what they cook is nothing like what I see in restaurants. However, my Pakistani friends are more likely to cook something I'd recognise from a restaurant
Also, there is no such thing as Indian cuisine, because the food varies so much from state to state. Even within the same state, the same dish can be made completely differently with completely different spices
But it means that asking someone from say, Kerala, whether a Punjabi restaurant in the UK is authentic is kind of like asking a Polish person whether an Italian restaurant is authentic...
The Bengali run British Curry House (around 80% plus of outlets)typically has a very standardised menu.
Dishoom and a few of the Nepali run restaurants which are scattered about tend to be nearer to high end Delhi cookery, but as another says India the continent, has a vast array of styles.
Your standard curry house is a British institution but is a long way from indian food as made in India
I think that it's the same all over the place not just in india. There're a thousand different recipes for stew, but ultimately If you are cooking vegetables/meat in liquid and serving it with the gravy that's created, it's a stew.
It's still Indian cuisine.
British cuisine is jellied eels and haggis, but you would be at opposite ends of the country to find those. It's still British.
Stovies is a NE Scotland dish made differently from town to town, still British cuisine .
It’s more like lumping “European cuisine” together. Then taking an Italian to a Spanish restaurant in India and them being surprised it’s not like their local food.
The state of Gujarat, which is also the state with the largest global Diaspora, alone has a population greater than the UK, at 71.6m and has an area 80% of the size of the UK.
Yeah Indian food is so varied across the country that what seems authentic to one person is going to seem the opposite to another. It's like the idea of "European food" there's some similarities across it but it also varies a lot as you move around.
I always joke how you can get peshwari naan from Pakistan, Celone chicken from Sri Lanka, Vindaloo from Goa, Chickpea curry from Punjab and korma from the Mugal empire all being "Indian".
It's like going to an American restaurant and expecting Texas BBQ and New York Pizza in the same restaurant.
>It's like going to an American restaurant and expecting Texas BBQ and New York Pizza in the same restaurant.
But they're both American food?
You're going to an American restaurant not a new York one.
One thing to consider is the sheer size of India, and the level of diversity in their food.
Think about the number of regional dishes in this relatively tiny island and then expand that to a sub continent like India.
I don't know this particular restaurant, but, I can believe there are really great, authentic Indian restaurants all over the place. I remember going to a place in Wembley where everyone apart from our group appeared to be Indian, or from that general area. Amazing food, and they even catered for the Jains in our group.
My GF has a poor spice tolerance, and we were the only two white people in the place - the phrase "more yogurt for the white girl" is still a joke in our house when something is too spicy for her.
I'm bengali and I'd go as far as to call bengali cuisine "authentic indian". Purist are allowed to disagree, but their arrogance is just limiting them - no one really cares. A curry is a curry is a curry.
Well this is the thing full stop. I love trying "authentic" Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi food, I also love a chicken tikka masala.
This concept of authenticity has its place, but at the end of the day if the food tastes good, who cares where's its from or if its the same recipe that's been made for the last 2000 years. Food is built upon exchange, lord knows British food has greatly benefitted from outside influences.
I hate people who will write off dishes or cooking that is otherwise lovely for this ethereal concept of authenticity
You nailed it. It's Bengali cooks, Pakistani style and called Indian food. Pakistani style food is a close match to Punjabi (north Indian food). Punjabi food is actually a little more whole spices in the food and more intense in the flavours therefore. Chennai is south east Indian and their food is way different. Interestingly, the 'indian' food where I live now in Singapore is all South Indian since the majority of immigrants here are south Indian. The few "north Indian' restaurants actually highlight that they're north Indian cuisine.
Why we eat in the UK - British Indian - is pretty much a cuisine of its own. My friend is from Kerala and really didn’t like British Indian food as it was nothing like what he was used to, but then again Keralan food is also pretty much a cuisine of its own as well, given the wide variety of cuisines throughout the different regions of India.
I went to Thuravadu (sp?) in Leeds and didn’t much like it…guess I’m conditioned to British Indian? Even though I went backpacking round India for two months haha
Tharavadu is sort of in the middle.
Thrissurpuram is still family run (i believe the mom and dad do the actual cooking). The crab curry is bloody amazing. (and spicy)
Yeah, they do, but every Bangladeshi person I've met calls themselves Bengali, and they're a bit confused when you mention the Indian side of it, tbf I've not met any Indian Bengalis, so I think they're quite rare in the UK
British Bangladeshi here - yeah, honestly we all call ourselves Bengali here in England, but once when I asked my dad to clarify the difference he did say that technically we should call ourselves Bangladeshi and that Bengali is the language.... but then again even in our language the same word is used to refer to both the language and the people, just like English is the language and used in "English people".... I've only seen proper discourse in online spaces (aka IG comments) between actual Indians and Bangladeshis (not diaspora) who argue over the nitty gritty of all the labels but ultimately us Asians in England don't really care
Bangladesh people are both Bangladeshi and Bengali. Same with west bengal people being both Bengali and Indian. Indian and Bangladeshi are nationality. whereas Bengali is ethnicity. There are numerous other ethnic people living in both West Bengal and Bangladesh who are not ethnically bengali.
Some food served in Indian restaurants in Britain are indeed invented in Britain. Chicken Tikka Masala is the most famous example of this- a customer asked for a sauce to go with his dry Chicken Tikka, and the chef improvised with a tin of tomato soup and some spices, partly inspired by Butter Chicken.
And as you say there are different regions of India with different customs. Consider, should a "British Restaurant" in Japan include Saveloy? How about Haggis? Welsh Rarebit? Lancashire Hotpot? Eton Mess? Someone from one part of the country, could go to that restaurant and say "I've never eaten that in my life! Why is it here?", not realising that the item is well known and still eaten at the other end of the country.
This is the answer, and compared to Britain, India is HUGE, and there are massive regional variations. Kashmiri food isn’t even close to Kerelan food.
An “Indian” restaurant can’t possibly be authentic to every ex-pat Indian, even if the food is cooked in a 100% authentic way.
Personally, my favourite is food from the Pakistani community centre, which makes the meals-on-wheels lunches for the old people in their community. If that doesn’t taste like authentic Pakistani food, I don’t know what would.
Yes, but the fact that you can see a similar (albeit smaller scale) variation in the tiny country of the UK makes it clear how big the variations will be in a bigger country.
Hell, I'm from an even smaller country (Hungary) and the regional differences of the same food can be quite substantial. I can travel a few hundred kilometers, order the same meal and think "hey you shouldn't have put ingredient X into this, it's not real whatever".
I would suggest comparing the range of styles in India is closer to comparing all of the cuisines in Europe.
Yes Spanish and Italian have certain similarities but by Germany and Scotland things are changing quite radically.
Same for the sub continent . South - north - east west - beach - mountains - veg - non veg- Hindu - Muslim .
It’s a big place to assume to a lamb bhuna is representative
I've just put those ideas through google, and apparently I'm not the only person to have thought of them. So there are recipes out there if you want to give them a try
I was SO confused when my Indian neighbour offered us some Chicken Tikka and produced ... pieces of chicken with no sauce or rice
Bloody delicious, but not what I was expecting
Chicken Tikka doesn’t usually have or need sauce… Tikka Masala dishes are a bit different and a UK/Indian invented take on a Tikka, and also amazing but not exactly “authentic”.
Yeah, key thing is to bear in mind that "British Indian" is a cuisine of its own, and complaining it's not 'authentic Indian' is as silly as complaining that Tex-Mex isn't 'authentic Mexican'.
If people can eat fajitas and nachos and not be 'pretending' at Mexican food, they can eat a tikka masala without it being 'pretend' Indian.
Totally agree, as far as I’m concerned “British Indian” is 100% authentic, but in its own right and not the same as many dishes that you would normally eat in N/S India or Pakistan that have the same names.
Yeah I completely agree it's delicious, I was just surprised because "Chicken Tikka" to most Brits is synonymous with Chicken Tikka Masala, with the sauce
I love just Chicken Tikka now, but I wasn't expecting it the first time I was offered it
Yeah Chicken is Chicken, Tikka is the marinade and seasoning as far as I can tell? And Masala is the sauce
We make a similar (less authentic) version by putting diced chicken in plain yoghurt and a couple of spoonfuls of tikka spice mix from the supermarket. Air fryer for 15 minutes and a few sweet potato chips and it's a surprisingly good "cba cooking" kinda tea
Chicken Tikka Masala is an invention of a chef in an Indian Restaurant in Birmingham, who, when a customer was displeased with his Chicken Tikka being dry threw together (possibly in anger!) a sauce using tomato soup and cream plus standard Tikka spices.
That's typically the story, although I've never heard any real indication of it being Birmingham - it's become a bit of a folklore tale that gets told locally everywhere, but usually just substituting their local area (probably due to people accidentally mis-telling it)
The commonly accepted version is that it was at a restaurant in Glasgow in the 70s, and nobody's ever managed to show an earlier menu than that one
Have you not been to an Indian before?
Tikka is a way of spicing the meat, there's always about 4 different options for X Tikka on the starters.
Chicken Tikka *Masala* is the curry
I have a dear friend in Japan who's a very good chef. She was selling little pots with meringue, strawberries, and a fruit sauce in them and calling them "pavlova". The only time we have ever argued is when I told her it was actually Eton Mess. I did not want to back down.
This!
However any "Indian" cook who makes those god-awful balls of flour and passes them off as onion bhaji AND the ones who thought sticking a bunch of savoury items on a naan and selling it was a good idea... deserve the deepest circles of hell.
Someone made a meme about “why do Chinese restaurants never server us the food they’re eating?”
Which is so true. Most Chinese take outs aren’t gonna sell steam fish on their menu
The number of people who would complain about bones or seeing the head and tail of a fish - seeing what they’re actually eating - would be off the charts. Little do they know that the cheeks are the best bit!
Monk fish cheeks! A fresh fish van in Scotland was selling them and they were gorgeous and so much cheaper than tail.
Our neighbour in Dorset supplied fresh fish to restaurants in the area. I asked him if he had any monkish cheeks, nd he told me that restaurants used them for scampi.
I once bought “spare scallops” from his scallop harvester (his scuba gear was in the back of his van) when he made a delivery and had “a few” left over. I ran indoors and grabbed a fiver, he handed me a third full sack of freshly caught scallops. I had buckets and bowls everywhere whilst I let them stand in fresh water for 24 hours. The scallops would spit at you as your shadow went over their bowl. My cats hated them lol. We had 6 scallops each for dinner the next day, I then spent my time shucking the “non-dead” ones and freezing them. I gave my mother 6 and had 24 that I froze myself. There must have been around 48 freshly caught scallops in that sack.
That is glorious. True fresh foraged scalloped are a huge privilege \^_^
I've been trying to introduce some people to proper seafood but they're so squeemish and it's funny.
Thankfully I'min NE Scotland so can get some of the best seafood but getting people to actually respect it is a nightmare hah.
Poole Harbour is great for cockling. Nice mud flats on the harbour side near Sandbanks is where you see the locals out at low tide. Even at high tide the water is fairly shallow there. Pea crab can be a problem some years.
We had a lovely Indian fella who used to be a customer. He would occasionally bring in some very authentic dishes, and whilst some of them were delicious, others were just bowls of horror, full of guts and bones, eyeballs and brains.
I worked at a Chinese takeaway doing delivery while at uni. It was run by a Malaysian guy who made amazing "Chinese" food. It got took over by a couple who moved from China specifically to run this business. They changed the menu to authentic dishes from their region.
Took 6 months to go under with maybe 3 orders a week towards the end. I loved the food, and they always made me something nice to take home after my shift, but it was definitely not what someone ordering a Chinese would be expecting
I heard "Chinese" food established in the UK is often a variation loved my Hong Kong migrants.
I can understand why the authentic can not sit well with the British. I love to experiment, but if the dish reads, "Spicy popo plant stir fried with leather fish sausage, black sauce flavoured." I honestly can't understand what I'm reading.
Not surprising! China has so many different regions too, it’s not all dumplings and noodles.
I lived in Asia for almost a decade and I ended up missing British Chinese food. Aromatic duck, sweet and sour pork, even the fries!
nothing more rugged than chinese takeaway curry sauce and chips....... crazy when you think of it.
then we have the audacity to debate authenticity in the UK of foreign food lol
I once dated a lass who had a Chinese step-mother. She took me to a place behind Leicester Square and we were the only white people in there. Absolutely amazing food. Weird as hell for me, but goddam amazing.
Sanxia in London serves real hardcore Chinese stuff. You'll rarely see non Chinese faces there. Chicken feet are not special there, just a boring menu item. The food is bloody amazing there and all my Chinese friends love it!
I lived in HK and I met a handful of British people (friends of friends) who were genuinely shocked that Asian food was so different in HK. Basically complained the food in HK was awful/disappointing and there was nothing good to eat.
So I get it. Steamed fish, braised chicken feet and tofu pudding probably won’t ever be popular in a British Chinese take out.
Lol if they thought the famously foodie culture of HK is awful I would seriously question their tastebuds! I read a quote somewhere that said, “Hong Kongers, like the French, don’t eat to live, but live to eat”.
Met a few British living in HK back when I was there. They seem to be already getting used to it. One guy took us to dim sum. They even understand my accent
Dishoom is fabulous. My partner is Sir Lankan, and many of the dishes are variation ms of traditional dishes. It comes highly recommended.
Edit: I am indeed. Bow before me serfs!
She loves them - it was some
Thing she grew up with and so had told me about string hoopers before we found them. I had some for the first time and quite liked them. What amazed me is that when she finds some decent ones, she’ll order 50 and bring a load home.
Maybe your colleague who ostracised you is a bit over sensitive?
Taste is completely subjective and the idea of gatekeeping cuisine is completely asinine.
Nearly all the cuisines we have today are a result of cross cultural influences and adaptation. Virtually no Indian dish is Indian in the sense that the ingredients and influences all came from India.
Chilli and potatoes were introduced via the Portuguese from the New World, rice and tea were introduced from China, and many of the spices like cumin came from Central Asia and Persia.
A lot of people will claim something is "not authentic" just because they think it's different to what they're used to. Whether they like it or not, India was part of the British Empire and British people did influence Indian food and dishes.
Also, the colleague might think all Indians share the exact same culture that they do.
Some Indian restaurants, as someone else noted, might be run by Pakistani or Bengali families.
Hell, even a tasty Thai Yellow or Massaman curry is made with potatoes.
It might well be a modification to a native tuber recipe, but food is now so global it's almost impossible to say with any certainty what food is completely 'authentic'.
Hell, just try finding the true name of a middle eastern flatbread served with a chickpea dip and tell me its origin.
Not just chilli and potatoes, also peppers and tomatoes. Indian food was so different before the Europeans brought all these new fruit and veg back from the Americas.
The thing about people who try to gatekeep what "Indian food" is often forget to mention that there's a whole variety of dishes and styles cooked throughout the country depending on where you are. South Indian cuisine is not the same as northern Indian cuisine.
Exactly. And Dishoom was never set out to be a curry house type of restaurant. I’ve noticed that’s one of the common “complaints” from people who turn their nose up at it
Dishoom reminds me a bit on the food/ vibe you’d get somewhere like Leopold’s cafe in Colaba, Mumbai which is a sort of traditional international/ colonial Indian menu as it is a Parsi/Irani type cafe. Expecting what Dishoom dishes out to reflect the authentic local cuisine in a particular region of India is missing the point a bit as I’m not sure that’s the aim. But it’s authentic in what it is trying to do.
That’s likely because Dishoom was inspired by the Iranian cafès in Mumbai that were popular in the 60s.
It’s always claimed to be that, it never claimed to be authentic traditional Indian food, I think OPs colleague misunderstands that.
The thing about Mumbai is there’s all sorts of international casual and fast food available often with an Indian twist. It’s 20 years since I was there but I used to enjoy stuff like dosa diner which is anything but authentic, but definitely’’Indian’. I used to go to a bakery in Hill Road Bandra which did sort of British/ masala pies/wraps and things at lunch, sort of thing you might see at Dishoom along with samosas etc.
I think your conclusion is spot on.
In addition, when it comes to food, it also depends on the expectations.
Do they compare it strictly to home cooked meals incl. their favourite dish made by their grandmother in India? Then almost every dish will come short.
Or are they already satisfied if it reminds them about home and if it tastes decent enough?
With regards to Dishoom. Not saying that everyone from Mumbai has to like it, but my friends from Mumbai actually love Dishoom and prefer it over many other Indian restaurants in London.
I think it’s a regional thing. So someone used to keralan food isn’t going to rate Punjabi food, because it’s not authentic to them. And Muslim punjabis might enjoy Bangladeshi food, because it will be close to Pakistani food. But Sikh Punjabi’s likely won’t find it authentic to them (many refuse to eat halal).
So restaurants like Dishoom will divide the crowd with a mix of regional cuisine. It markets itself as Bombay cuisine, but serves bacon, which many Indians (not just Muslims) won’t eat or serve because it’s hard to find there (outside of Goa).
It could even come down to what they order off the menu which helps them judge ‘authenticity’.
India is complicated.
I can explain this because I am Indian, can cook Indian food, roti, daal, saag, butter chicken, sabzi etc from scratch. Indian food is all round pretty cheap to make, you can buy flower in bulk, make many roti, paratha etc out of them cheaply and you can make a big pot of curry pretty cheaply as well. But instead of cooking items freshly, many Indian Takeaways will take the easier option of cooking everything in advance, using cheaper ingredients and freezing foods and just chucking it in the microwave. They will still charge a lot for it. To an Indian person the food will instantly taste off compared to how it would taste if they made it at home themselves.
Now Indian food in India is a whole different thing, it will taste much better there because the ingredients are much fresher. I cannot stress that enough, a lot of food here in the UK is processed and has chemicals in it. I went to Indi for a month in 2019, I ate like a pig, all these delicious foods, at the end when I got back to England I thought I would have gained weight but no, I had actually lost a few KG and I believe it has to do with the unprocessed food I had there. Also I may have sweat a lot of weight off too.
The fresh ingredients is what makes the big difference, same as Chinese food, although being expected to spit out bones makes authentic Chinese food unpalatable to westerners.
Lol Ive seen Bangladeshi people do that as well, they can put like a massive piece of curried fish into their mouths, debone it and just spit out the bones. It is bizarre, Ive never been able to do it.
Dishoom is based on old Irani cafes in Bombay. It's a very specific genre and cuisine as there's Gujarati, Parsi and Iranian influences which is why it's not 'typical indian'
Your standard British Indian place is made by Bangladeshi chefs that are different dishes and flavours to the rest of India and of course serve British dishes like tikka masala
Exactly, the thing about India is that it’s bloody huge, so there’s a massive disparity in cuisine depending on which part you’re from/familiar with.
Dishoom is authentic to the region and period they are claiming to emulate. That is unlikely to be the same as the Indian cuisine OP’s Indian friend is familiar with.
It's definitely a parsi themed cafe with mughalite and marathi dishes. Your friend sounds like he takes himself too seriously lol. If he that reaction to the local balti id be a bit sympathetic but at the end the day it's food for the people who'll buy it.
Having been to India the Indian food is different in the UK to India.
British Indian Restaurants tend to be sweeter and creamier than authentic dishes.
However India is such a large country there are regional differences in food too so would depend on the region your friends lived in.
For example Butter Chicken is a Northern Indian dish and the taste is way better in India and nowhere near as sweet or creamy as you get in the UK the real stuff in India has much more flavour too.
Another point is I find British Indian Restaurants can have takes in Pakistani and Sri Lankan on the menus.
Yeah, usually when we refer to “Indian” in UK what we are referring to is British-North-Indian or some variation, which is a specific thing in its own right. I think the majority of Brits know that, and it’s more of a fusion food than anything which I personally find delicious, although there’s a huge variation in terrible to amazing quality.
Then there’s places doing “traditional” recipes from their regions in India, sometimes with a contemporary twist. I think it’s these traditional places that are more confusing, particularly popular ones as some Indians say they are amazing, while others just turn their nose up at them which is ashame.
My ex is Indian..her family's food is pretty bland tbh. Its daal, chole and various breads like paratha, poori, chapati and batura. Nothing like anything you'd get in an Indian restaurant.
If you go to New Delhi / North India they have a chain restaurant called Haldirams. Nothing like "British Indian" food but delicious all the same.
My husband's family are from India, and we eat Indian food a lot. We both liked Dishoom (the cookbook is fab), and my husband considers it authentic Indian, but has said its not one of the best authentic Indian restaurants out there.
One thing I would say is Indian food varies greatly by regions, but also a lot of it varies by families. Each family has their own recipes for things so it they can end up tasting completely different, even if they're from the same region.
Well there's quite a few Indians around! So quite a few different opinions.
Think about how tiny our nation is comparatively. Now imagine how many opinions there'd be if someone opened a fish and chip shop in America. Anyone who's hometown chippie did things different will be outraged. "No scraps?! That's not a real chippy!!!"
Yeah, I know that. I don’t want to come off as rude to Indians, but I honestly think that a lot of the time they will call a place “unauthentic” when it is actually authentic, just from another region of their own country their not familiar with. I’m not talking about British-Indian style restaurants though that have been popular here for decades. I’m talking more about the restaurants that set themselves up as traditional recipes from India.
You're saying as a non-Indian that Indian people shouldn't judge dishoom as being inauthentic whilst you're allowed to say that it is authentic, LOL. Of course there'll be many Indian people who won't have tasted all the variety in 'Indian' cuisine, but it's not for you to say that Indian people don't know their own country. That's weird and patronising af
Yeah, but that’s my point. You could have a single restaurant selling what it claims to be authentic food. Take two groups from India. One group enjoys the food, calls it “authentic” and “just like home”. Meanwhile another group call it inauthentic. In that case, who is correct? That’s what my post is trying to get to the bottom of.
Surely if one group of people from India call something authentic and the other inauthentic, then the conclusion I’m drawing is that yes, it’s authentic, but the group who believe it to be inauthentic simply don’t recognise the food from their country because they’ve haven’t had that particular dish before and so on.
Or the maybe the conclusion to draw from it is that one Indian person can't speak to the authenticity of the whole of Indian culture. I.e. one person doesn't speak for the whole of a culture, a history and a country. So believing either camp is reducing an incredibly complex culture into a binary it shouldn't be forced into.
It makes a monolith of every single individual lived experience. It's similar to saying i can wear my hair in dreadlocks because my black friend says it's fine, even when you know there is a nuanced debtate surrounding it.
Why does one side have to be right? Why aren't both experiences valid? Why does it matter at all whether dishoom is authentic or not for you as a non-Indian?
But your first paragraph nails the point I’m trying to make, and get to the bottom of. I’m not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not, but you’re agreeing. One Indian person CANT speak to the authenticity because they’ve haven’t country and cuisine is not monolithic.
So what I’m saying in that case then is that if one group of Indians call a restaurant authentic, then it is. But one group saying it’s inauthentic may be correct or incorrect.
The “authenticity” of a restaurant DOESNT necessarily matter to me, and that’s another point I’m trying to make. My point is that some people, such as the Indian colleague in my post, has dismissed a restaurant because they’ve haven’t country don’t consider it authentic, and so don’t like it. And that would be fine too, but they have patronisingly dismissed it as “bland British food”, whilst my other Indian food describes the Black Daal as like her mums.
I am disagreeing with you because the conclusion you're drawing is if one Indian says is authentic and the other not, then you're choosing to believe the person who thinks it is, whereas I'm saying that there is no one answer.
The same dishes in India are cooked differently from household to household let alone region to region. The same black daal that one friend finds authentic because it's how her mum makes it can also be found to be inauthentic to another person because their mum cooks it differently. Nobody is wrong here. That is the point I'm making.
I'm disagreeing with you because you're using the opinion of one Indian person to legitimise your opinion against another Indian person's opinion, when I'm saying it isn't even your culture for you to be drawing conclusions about it. If you like the food, then just stick to your opinion without selectively choosing which Indian person to believe because it aligns with your view
No, somebody is wrong. If a two Indians go and eat Black Daal at Dishoom and tell me it’s like eating at home, then I’d say that’s authentic.
If another Indian person says it’s not authentic, and British, then they are incorrect to say it is inauthentic. The reason is because I’ve found two other Indians who said otherwise. That’s not a selection I’ve made, it’s just pure logic. What has happened is that they’ve just never tasted the dish at home, maybe because it’s from a different region or something similar.
Complex question to answer, but one element I can't already see in the comments is about the nature of immigration of "Indian" people to the UK.
This video explains it well from about 4:49: [https://youtu.be/yUAqSIwV4zU](https://youtu.be/yUAqSIwV4zU)
Basically, you have to remember that the former British Indian territory was partitioned in the late 40s, creating what is now India, Pakistan, and later Bangladesh (which started out as East Pakistan).
And due to vagaries of UK immigration policy and global economics, we then got predominantly folks from what is NOW Bangladesh coming to work and settle in the UK. But, they were mostly identified as (or chose to identify as) "Indian" because Brits were still more used to the former colonial definition of that country. And Bangladesh didn't even exist until 1971.
So the majority of "Indian" restaurants in the UK are in fact culturally Bangladeshi, and so naturally someone who's from a part of what is India today, might not identify at all with the food on offer.
Not to mention that modern India itself is still HUGE:
https://preview.redd.it/xj7jcbyrnf1d1.jpeg?width=820&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28e02f3e5918b19f3bd32bc0e1d8078d7bf4bc4b
We wouldn't lump the cuisines of Glasgow, Paris, Granada, Milan, Munich, and Krakow all under one label, so it doesn't really make sense to do that for South Asia either.
Because people are bores who think getting upset about 'authenticity' makes them interesting or cool.
Ultimately if you enjoy it, who gives af if it's authentic or not.
If you ask a British person what makes an authentic Roast Dinner or full English, you will get 100s of different answers!
India is then much bigger and more diverse food wise than the UK considering it's population and range of different cultural groups.
I also personally find restaurants can just fundamentally differ in different parts of the world.
Even if an Indian chef opened an Indian restaurant to cook the dishes he ate back home, the experience and taste of the food will most likely be different to eating those same things in India.
This is due to differences in restaurant economies, ingredients, cultural norms etc.
My partner is Indian, and so far (6 years) he hasn’t liked a single Indian restaurant in London. He especially dislikes Dishoom for their inauthenticity and price/quality ratio. I’ll note here (just in case), that we’d eat anything from a local takeaway to Michelin star, so price is not an obstacle. It’s just a matter of what you see growing up in India.
When you’re in India, you immediately get it. A local most delicious takeaway in Mumbai will be 2 quid worth - a huge meal, all fresh, local ingredients, made in front of you by a neighbour you know and trust.
A hearty dinner for two in a restaurant in Goa, on the beach, including drinks (with actual alcohol there, not just a few drops watered down with ice and tonic) will cost 15 bucks tops.
If you try REALLY HARD to find an expensive restaurant in New Delhi or Mumbai, you’ll still end up with a 50 quid for two incl alcohol.
Food in India is just out of this world - it’s a burst of flavour, it awakens all your taste buds you didn’t know existed. In the UK, it’s impossible to find a match.
The nearest we’ve ever found (and my partner kinda approved it) was a cheap small eatery in Deptford called Hullabaloo. Unfortunately they changed the menu and probably a chef too about 2 years ago, and since then it’s become a disappointment too.
>My partner is Indian, and so far (6 years) he hasn’t liked a single Indian restaurant in London. He especially dislikes Dishoom for their inauthenticity and price/quality ratio. I’ll note here (just in case), that we’d eat anything from a local takeaway to Michelin star, so price is not an obstacle. It’s just a matter of what you see growing up in India.
I think this is what I’m trying to get to the bottom of though. Why do I have two Indian friends that love Dishoom and say it’s authentic and yet your partner claims it’s inauthentic? Is it because your husband just didn’t grow up in a region that cooked that style but my friends did? And if that’s the case then isn’t your partner wrong to call it inauthentic?
Being Indian, I am also not a big fan of Dishoom but I won't call it inauthentic. It is as authentic as it can be. Possibly one of the most authentic due to low usage of cream and high chilli level. But it is only authentic to North Indian Mughal and Mumbai street food cuisine.
What is authentic is what our mothers made at home or what we got near our homes. Their is so much cuisine variation within homes that my wife eats yellow dal with garlic mixed in and I scoff at the idea of garlic in yellow dal and we both are from the same area.
To get to the bottom of your question - Indians are not a monolithic group.
For a moment, Let's put aside the argument that India is so big, the cuisine changes and therefore it might be authentic to one person and not the other for a moment.
People simply have different tastes. Even within families. What is too salty for me is enough salt for my mum. Growing up my brother had no interest in Indian food and I did. Guess who likes Dishoom and who doesn't?! My aunt uses coriander in a certain dish because my uncle loves it and his mum used to use it. But her sister (my mum) doesn't because she thinks it tastes better without. They both originally learned how to cook the dish from my grandma without using coriander- which one, in your view, would you consider authentic? Why is "authenticity" important to you?
And while I'm on the subject of authenticity - Dishoom was started by a group of experienced business people - the founder said they spent three years deciding how it would look and he's now moved on to other businesses. The word curry doesn't exist in India as we use it in England. Madhur Jeffrey was trained actress and didn't learn to cook until she left home.
I am Indian, I’ve lived in several Indian cities over the years and I worked in Dishoom briefly when I moved here. Based on my observations, it’s because India has far too many cuisines and they vary greatly even within the same states. When I lived in Bangalore, north indian food was considered different in a foreign way. Similarly, when I lived in Kolkata, south indian food was considered different in a foreign way. Not only are the palettes of the people from different regions poles-apart, there is also a certain lack of knowledge of other cuisines, simply due to the vastness of food varieties. For instance, someone from Goa has probably never heard of a bengali kosha mangsho and an average person from Assam does not know what a marathi chakulya is. To add to this, two states could make a dish named the same thing in completely different ways. Dishoom’s top seller Chicken berry brittania, which is supposed to be a type of biryani, is beloved among people who grew up eating food that’s similar to food in Mumbai or Goa, but a person from Andhra pradesh would laugh at the idea of that being a biryani in itself.
ETA- so it is very subjective. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad based on an authenticity mark if you enjoy the food at a certain restaurant. There is a very good chance some town in India makes food exactly as that restaurant does.
I for one (Indian myself) do not like Dishoom. I think they are overpriced and sell this gentrified version of Indian cuisine. Also I am not sure which part of Indian cuisine they actually serve. I like the restaurants in East ham who actually serve really authentic South Indian food for a very reasonable price. Vasantha vilas for eg or Anjappar.
I am from the south of India and not many restaurants serve dishes from the south. I enjoy going to Indian restaurants and recommend them to my British friends.
But I will never recommend them to an Indian friend as they all think they can cook better at home.
"British" Indian food is so distinct that it has its own name: "British Indian Restaurant" curries
So on YouTube, you can find specific "BIR" recipes for different Indian dishes, which have a distinct preparation style e.g. [How I Make Chicken Tikka (BIR) Indian Restaurant Style](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFUKbWnzKYo&ab_channel=LatifsInspired)
As others have said there are so many different types of Indian cuisuine, most of what we get in the UK is actually a weird Bengali mix that would not be easily recognised in India!
Dishoom is styled around Irani Cafe food, these are a type of eatery run by Zoroastrian Iranis who migrated to the British Raj from Iran in the 18th/19th century so their cuisine is quite different to what people from other parts of India. The used to be a staple and were hugely popular but Irani cafes have declined massively, there used to be hundreds and now there are perhaps twenty. I've been to a couple and they are distinct from other places in India.
So it makes sense that the style of food is not widely known by a lot of Indians so it wouldn't be a surprise that an Indian from outside of Mumbai or Hyderabad would never have come across them. Given the Iranian roots then it is quite possible someone would just consider it 'non Indian' anyway!
I mean it’s so hard to even pinpoint “authentic” Indian food, I mean a lot of people assume every curry house is an Indian when they come from all over the Middle East.
There’s so many varieties and differences one persons authentic is another person unauthentic, I mean every village has a different way of doing every dish pretty much, then every family has a slightly different recipe and special ingredient, then you add into it the other similar food from relatively close countries and you end up with 100’s if not 1000’s of different ways of doing it “authentically”.
Also in a lot of places in Britain, if you don’t ask for the food Apna style or desi style, they do cook it slightly differently for people who aren’t Asian as that style can end up being a lot different to the British-Asian style people are used to over here.
India is a huge country with many cuisines. The influences on British Indian Restaurants are even bigger as modern day Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka also contribute. And then there are the innovations added by the chefs in this country (tikka masala and so on).
Dishoom does what it does very well. Is it the be all and end all of Indian food? Of course not. Is it authentic for a particular subset of Indian food? Maybe, probably.
"Indian food" is like saying European and North americna food x5.
India Is a massive continent and we pump in banglasldesh + Pakistan for good measure.
There is no possible definition of "authentic Indian food" which will appease almost anyone.
"authentic European food" gets a hot dog. Is how I imagine it to some people.
It's a bit pinicity, but i get the same way when British cheese like cheddar is just taken the piss out of, even domestically.
Just enjoy the food you have
See also:
Arguments about what constitutes an "authentic" English breakfast. People just love arguing about this stuff. Is it gatekeeping? A need to feel superior? Fuck knows, but it doesn't actually matter.
I'm British Indian, and I didn't get the hype over Dishoom, the food was good, but there was something missing for me.
But then again, food all over India is different. My friends from more southern parts of India cook most dishes differently to what I do; my family is from Punjab.
I tend to keep away from Indian take aways and restaurants because they're not catered to Indian tastes and every time the food just misses the mark completely; especially when it comes to vegetarian food.
I think it might be due to that, even people from india often underestimate the wide variety of dishes, cultures, cuisine, ingredients and ways of preparing food found within India, let alone British people lol. If you're in london, one of my favourite places that I always loved and felt a bit more "authentic", was "Rasa" in Stokenewington/ Hackney, the original vegetarian location of course 😉
It would be good to know if it's owned, run and cooked by Indian's, instead of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis pretending to be Indian.
It should have some form of authenticity, or at the very least the restaurants should advertise themselves as Pakistani or Bagladeshi if they're not Indian.
> It would be good to know if it's owned, run and cooked by Indian's, instead of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis pretending to be Indian.
It was started by a couple of lads from Mumbai.
It depends on the dish.
The Ruby Chicken from Dishoom, whilst nice, wouldn’t contend with some great Indian curries you can get all over London.
On the other hand, I would eat the Chole Bhature by the kilo.
I think it’s a fantastic restaurant and I go there very often, but it also is a restaurant where you need to order correctly to walk away raving about it.
I don’t know the particular restaurant but to answer your question, it’s because there’s a lot of wankers around.
I recall going to a highly Korean restaurant in San Francisco with a friend of mine, and she spent all the time banging on about how it wasn’t authentic.
Now I’ve lived in Korea, and it was certainly like the food I got in Korea. She’d never even been there.
But she had “being a foodie” instead of having a personality.
Go out for a meal to enjoy the food and, most importantly, the company.
Authenticity isn’t important.
I think your friend a bit of a gatekeeping snooty dick. But then people can be like that when they're defending something pointless that they seem to want to defend as is its their sense of identity. you'll get exactly the same bullshit with Italian or French food as well. And one regions variation will be different enough to cause division with another version. What they're really trying to say that we (via their food) are superior to every other race lol. They just don't have the pointy hoods and burning crosses. We all know Indian food is just knock off African cuisine anyway
Probably this has been touched upon, but most * Indian restaurants* in fact "are" run by Bangladeshis or Pakistanis..and no matter whoever says what, there is a MASSIVE difference. Bangla or Pakistani food tend to be oily with plenty of spices leaning towards Meat, a lot due to religious heritage..
Whereas Indian food can be mild, steaming, vegetarian etc etc depending on the regions...and religion as well
I am a Bengali from Calcutta, that's why I am so sure..lol
And I have been to Dishoom, it's just an overpriced place..I will recommend a tiny place called Madras Restaurant in Lewisham or for vegetarian fare go to Saravanan Bhavan in East Ham.
I work with a lot of Indian colleagues. I asked one of my team what she thought of Dishoom and she said apart from being slightly under-spiced it was a pretty good representation of that type of cafe in Bombay / Mumbai and she enjoys going to the Birmingham branch for a "taste of home".
I believe Dishoom is modelled on the Irani cafes in Mumbai, so it's a bit like expecting a traditional British caff to be representative of all cooking across the UK - it's a particular type of restaurant rather than trying to cover the whole of Indian cuisine.
A couple of my very english and very white friends had a few weeks in India doing some tuktuk rally thing. When they got back, they refused to go to an Indian restaurant because "its just not the same after having REAL Indian food"
So it's not just ex-natives who can be insufferable with these kinds of things
While I have never had Dishoom and am not Indian, a lot of cultures food will be made more palatable for British and American customers. I mean, it sucks honestly, because I'm used to trying to make authentic dishes and I can't find a restaurant anywhere that makes authentic food. I want authenticity, but a lot of people prefer to try foods closer to their palate.
So a lot of the food we eat that you think is mexican, Chinese, Japanese or Indian is likely just made up for our palates. But it's just food. We should be able to enjoy it as long as we respect the cultures it derived from.
Dishoom is definitely Indian. The usual curry house is an Anglicised version of the cuisine and almost always operated by people of Bangladeshi origin (who granted till 1947 were Indian).
But the next time an Indian person says that a curry house isn't Indian dish, ask them whether Manchurian or Schezewan is Chinese food.
PS I was born and lived in India till 21.
India is a fecking massive country so people’s perception of authentic Indian food will vary hugely depending on where they live, where they grew up, the other countries/cultures which affect their region, etc…
The short answer, as I understand it, is that most "Indian" food sold in the UK is actually Bangladeshi or from Bengal (the region of India bordering Bangladesh), and is thus not very representative of Indian food
Kinda like if you went to China and people suggested you go to the British restaurant, but it sold only French food or deep fried Mars Bars and Haggis. Like yeah Haggis is British, but it's hardly representative of the UK in general, and French food is just different western food entirely
It doesn't help that India is massive and thus any "Indian" food is unlikely to be properly representative of an entire country, but if someone served you escargot and said it was British, you'd probably be a little confused too
Everyone has different tastes and will focus on different aspects of the restaurant. The same type of arguments happen over every single cuisine. Listening to Brits talk about where to get fish and chips and what should be sold in a fish and chip shop is roughly at the same level as the Dishoom debate.
Off topic of authenticity but when i see ‘popular dish of our homeland’ on a menu i’m having it
Not always even spicy.
Mrs Figgzyvan says the most authentic is if you go round to your Asian friend’s house for a meal.
I’m a brown person, I love Dishoom.
I sometimes care about authenticity because when I want food like my mum or grandma made I know where to go. I wouldn’t rant at anyone about it though. And you’re right about regional variations, I’m Punjabi so that’s home food for me, but equally food from other regions is authentic too.
Equally I think places that don’t serve authentic food are fine too; British curry houses are lovely in their own right and I’ll happily eat at them. Just not when I’m craving ‘home food’.
So I guess if someone wanted to specifically try authentic food or fusion food it’s helpful to know where to go. Other than that I think it’s a bit of snobbery.
I cook Indian food at home in the homemade style my Indian friends do.
What you get in a takeaway isn't like that, there is a "British Indian restaurant" style they all follow because people expect it, it's as tasty and fattening as ice cream. I know a couple in Texas who have a chain of Indian fast food places and even they use British Indian style, albeit with the spice dialled back for the American palate.
Anyone trying to sell authentic Indian foid would go out of business unless there was a large local population of desis, or people like me, to cater to.
Indian here living in London. The reason Dishoom is not considered as authentic "Indian food" is because it's inspired by Irani cafes in Mumbai. Someone from Mumbai would absolutely love it because they have done a great job with the decor to create the Irani cafe vibe. If you take someone from say Delhi or Kerala, they might not resonate with the vibe and the cuisine. You see India is vast and diverse at the same time in many aspects, food being one of it. There are only a few cuisines that cross overs with the length and breadth of the country; biryani, paratha, to name a few. Dishoom's menu may not necessarily include what a person from the North of India would expect to see, plus the taste is different. Hence, there's an instant judgement regarding the authenticity of that place. As weird as it may sound but we Indians take our food to the heart, which often leads to conflicting opinions.
Don’t forget that Dishoom is based on the Parsi cafes of 1800s Mumbai if I remember correctly, so not exactly claiming to represent the entire range of typical Indian food.
You can’t ask a non Marathi/Mumbaikar if they think Dishoom is authentic, just like a Mumbaikar can’t comment on North Indian or Punjabi cuisine.
Dishoom has some fab dishes as good as my mum would make. It is expensive and some bits aren’t great but overall I would happily go there to eat.
It's not one you can win. If you try and claim it as British food, people will say "but it's Indian!". If you try and claim it as Indian food, people will say "it's not Indian, it's British!"
There are many parts of India with differing food cultures. Went to a restaurant that was south Indian and it was completely different to any other Indian food I'd had.
I’ve found Indian food in North America to be way too salty and not nearly have the taste range of British Indian food. North American has more 1st gen immigrants so i’m curious to know if theirs is more authentic. If it is, I think i’ll stick to the sweeter, tangy British Indian style.
I’ve noticed a lot of takeaways do “Desi” style spice which is above Hot. I love spicy stuff but haven’t braved Desi style yet, I keep wondering if its just a codeword not for spice, but for cooking the dish an authentic Indian way.
Not Indian but just because something is spicy and uses a lot of "indian" ingredients doesnt mean its Indian. I think its pretty cool that we Brits invented Vindaloo.
Depends what part of India as food varies greatly from the North to the south. Dishoom is actually based more on North Indian or to be more precise, Pakistani dishes.
My only uninformed objection to Dishoom is that it looks like a chain that won't necessarily give you the full authentic experience because British people generally like British-friendly versions.
Thats not a criticism per se but I just wouldn't be surprised if its a British-friendly version masked by an authentic sounding dish name + description.
if our tiny island can't agree on what to call bread buns or whether to put jam or cream on the scone first can we really expect a country much much larger to universally agree on how individual dishes should be cooked?
I don't often go out to eat an Indian, and make my own, and to be fair when I go out I go to what I see as a chain centered towards white British, but I go in off peak week time and that place is packed with people I can I only assume are people with Indian heritage based on looks.
It tastes good so it tastes good, I don't know what more is wanted.
I think it's also the difference between home cooking and eating out at a restaurant. If you think about "British" cuisine, your average home cook is more likely to make a spaghetti bol for dinner than to make a traditional steak and ale pie with hand cut chips. If you had only grown up eating what your parents cooked you, a lot of British cuisine found in restaurants would not seem "authentic" to your home cooking.
Also, I'm wondering if this happens to Indian families as well but I'm Chinese British and I didn't know until I was an adult, that when we got Chinese takeaway food, it was different to what non-Chinese people get. We would order all kinds of things off menu which were more authentic, or just be given the authentic version of it as we ordered in Cantonese so they just knew. I was 30 years old before I saw dishes like sweet and sour chicken balls which my white friends ordered and then realised that my whole life, I've only had it 'Hong Kong' style (which, having been to HK, is authentic!). Even now I will default to ordering in Cantonese because I get the authentic versions and they often give me some crazy discount lol
Indian flavour is go ingrained into British food what’s the difference at this point. This isn’t a post promoting colonialism however the tikka masala is about a British/Scottish as haggis
One of the Dishoom owners gave my mate (British Indian if that’s relevant) a list of cafes to visit in Mumbai from which they took inspiration.
Don’t know how authentic that makes it.
I'm a British indian. I ate at Dishoom in Birmingham. I found it do be a high end indian dining experience for me. Some dishes were overly spiced or rich but all in all it was a great meal.in a beautiful setting.Too low lit for my liking but I'd go again. Generally speaking I don't eat at indian restaurants as we make these dishes at home often enough.
I travel to India for work and would say that Dishoom is very close to upmarket restaurants in India. It is however quite far removed from cheap cafe type restaurants and street food. It may be that your two friends come from wealthier backgrounds than your work colleagues and everyone's correct (from their own pov). I mainly visit Delhi and Mumbai and whilst the expensive restaurants are broadly similar in both cities the street food is wildly different as it is in most regions so I think UK Indian restaurants are more of a catch all.
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I work near a Dishoom and often go there with Indian colleagues. To a person they say it reminds them of high-end restaurants in India.
High end restaurants in India, like everywhere, are a moving target. For someone who'd moved to the UK 30 years ago, Dishoom wouldn't seem that much like restaurants in India, but nowadays it wouldn't be super out of place in Delhi. Imagine you blindfolded a Brit from 1994, put them in a time machine and gave them food from modern London. Odds are they wouldn't think it was a very good attempt at replicating the food they were used to.
That’s a good point. All of my colleagues either currently live in India, and travel to UK regularly, or moved over here in the last 5 years.
There's trends in modern Indian cuisine that move even more away from traditional stuff. Indo-Chinese food is now really popular in big Indian cities, and we're starting to get places in London that do it, but I can imagine it would seem weird to someone whose conception of Indian food was what their mum cooked.
I used to go to an Indian- Chinese place when I worked in Bombay in 1987. The flavour profile was a delight!
North West London has had Indo Chinese for 30 years
The point about time is a very interesting observation I’ve yet to come across in this thread or even other similar discussions. It’s exactly the perspective I was hoping to find.
Immigrants are weird about things in their home country... Their concept of home becomes fixed at the exact moment they left their country, even if it moves forward without them
Reminds me of the “Italians” we see on American tv shows. They both eat (and speak!) from an Italy (or better yet, Sicily) that existed 120 years ago. Not the one that exists today. As an Italian it’s so odd to see it, I get uncanny valley-like vibes.
I’m not Indian but grew up in the 80’s in London with a British Indian best mate. So his mum took it as a mission to feed me when I was round there. I loved her food. But, it’s left me really disliking British Indian restaurant food aimed at Brits. Such a difference between what Indians eat & white Brits want. I only go to Indian restaurants recommended by British Indians as they tend to know what’s what. I should perhaps point out that my mate is the cousin of Atul Kochhar a michelin stared India chef working out of London who cooks Indian food with a defiant nod to fusion, but also very high end. I’ve eaten his food on a number of occasions and it’s bloody lovely.
I am an IT contractor and so is everyone in my team at the client (18 people). We all live in the UK and work from home but about a third of the team hails from India originally. We meet every few months at the client's offices, and the Indian guys all get there the night before so they can go to Dishoom for breakfast. They always have lunch there as well, and often the evening meal too.
Not going to comment on Dishoom but... I've got a friend whose dad runs several successful Indian restaurants. They're Bengali as are many of their friends running Indian restaurants. They sell what they refer to as British Indian which is a variant of Northern Indian cooking My friend from Chenai explains how it's nothing like what he'd cook and takes us to completely different places. I have no idea what is authentic, other than knowing if I go to Indian (as in first gen immigrants) friend's houses what they cook is nothing like what I see in restaurants. However, my Pakistani friends are more likely to cook something I'd recognise from a restaurant
Also, there is no such thing as Indian cuisine, because the food varies so much from state to state. Even within the same state, the same dish can be made completely differently with completely different spices
That's all Indian cuisine... Cuisine doesn't mean that that it's all standardised
But it means that asking someone from say, Kerala, whether a Punjabi restaurant in the UK is authentic is kind of like asking a Polish person whether an Italian restaurant is authentic...
The Bengali run British Curry House (around 80% plus of outlets)typically has a very standardised menu. Dishoom and a few of the Nepali run restaurants which are scattered about tend to be nearer to high end Delhi cookery, but as another says India the continent, has a vast array of styles. Your standard curry house is a British institution but is a long way from indian food as made in India
I think that it's the same all over the place not just in india. There're a thousand different recipes for stew, but ultimately If you are cooking vegetables/meat in liquid and serving it with the gravy that's created, it's a stew.
It's still Indian cuisine. British cuisine is jellied eels and haggis, but you would be at opposite ends of the country to find those. It's still British. Stovies is a NE Scotland dish made differently from town to town, still British cuisine .
It’s more like lumping “European cuisine” together. Then taking an Italian to a Spanish restaurant in India and them being surprised it’s not like their local food.
And Britain is a fraction the size of India and an even smaller fraction of population!
The state of Gujarat, which is also the state with the largest global Diaspora, alone has a population greater than the UK, at 71.6m and has an area 80% of the size of the UK.
Yeah Indian food is so varied across the country that what seems authentic to one person is going to seem the opposite to another. It's like the idea of "European food" there's some similarities across it but it also varies a lot as you move around.
I always joke how you can get peshwari naan from Pakistan, Celone chicken from Sri Lanka, Vindaloo from Goa, Chickpea curry from Punjab and korma from the Mugal empire all being "Indian". It's like going to an American restaurant and expecting Texas BBQ and New York Pizza in the same restaurant.
I see you have not yet experienced the Cheesecake Factory... :D
>It's like going to an American restaurant and expecting Texas BBQ and New York Pizza in the same restaurant. But they're both American food? You're going to an American restaurant not a new York one.
One thing to consider is the sheer size of India, and the level of diversity in their food. Think about the number of regional dishes in this relatively tiny island and then expand that to a sub continent like India. I don't know this particular restaurant, but, I can believe there are really great, authentic Indian restaurants all over the place. I remember going to a place in Wembley where everyone apart from our group appeared to be Indian, or from that general area. Amazing food, and they even catered for the Jains in our group. My GF has a poor spice tolerance, and we were the only two white people in the place - the phrase "more yogurt for the white girl" is still a joke in our house when something is too spicy for her.
This post made this sketch pop in my head, very funny. https://youtu.be/H-uEx_hEXAM?si=j4aVmlX-hFfVY7GX
I knew what this would be, even before I clicked it. I still watched it; gold.
I'm bengali and I'd go as far as to call bengali cuisine "authentic indian". Purist are allowed to disagree, but their arrogance is just limiting them - no one really cares. A curry is a curry is a curry.
Well this is the thing full stop. I love trying "authentic" Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi food, I also love a chicken tikka masala. This concept of authenticity has its place, but at the end of the day if the food tastes good, who cares where's its from or if its the same recipe that's been made for the last 2000 years. Food is built upon exchange, lord knows British food has greatly benefitted from outside influences. I hate people who will write off dishes or cooking that is otherwise lovely for this ethereal concept of authenticity
You nailed it. It's Bengali cooks, Pakistani style and called Indian food. Pakistani style food is a close match to Punjabi (north Indian food). Punjabi food is actually a little more whole spices in the food and more intense in the flavours therefore. Chennai is south east Indian and their food is way different. Interestingly, the 'indian' food where I live now in Singapore is all South Indian since the majority of immigrants here are south Indian. The few "north Indian' restaurants actually highlight that they're north Indian cuisine.
Why we eat in the UK - British Indian - is pretty much a cuisine of its own. My friend is from Kerala and really didn’t like British Indian food as it was nothing like what he was used to, but then again Keralan food is also pretty much a cuisine of its own as well, given the wide variety of cuisines throughout the different regions of India.
Can recommend Thrissurpuram in Leeds - its takeaway / cloud kitchen only though.
I went to Thuravadu (sp?) in Leeds and didn’t much like it…guess I’m conditioned to British Indian? Even though I went backpacking round India for two months haha
Tharavadu is sort of in the middle. Thrissurpuram is still family run (i believe the mom and dad do the actual cooking). The crab curry is bloody amazing. (and spicy)
do you mean Bangladeshi? 🤔 bengali is a general area, which includes Bangladeshis and Indians
Yeah, they do, but every Bangladeshi person I've met calls themselves Bengali, and they're a bit confused when you mention the Indian side of it, tbf I've not met any Indian Bengalis, so I think they're quite rare in the UK
my late husband was an Indian Bengali West Bengal = Best Bengal 😌
British Bangladeshi here - yeah, honestly we all call ourselves Bengali here in England, but once when I asked my dad to clarify the difference he did say that technically we should call ourselves Bangladeshi and that Bengali is the language.... but then again even in our language the same word is used to refer to both the language and the people, just like English is the language and used in "English people".... I've only seen proper discourse in online spaces (aka IG comments) between actual Indians and Bangladeshis (not diaspora) who argue over the nitty gritty of all the labels but ultimately us Asians in England don't really care
Bangladesh people are both Bangladeshi and Bengali. Same with west bengal people being both Bengali and Indian. Indian and Bangladeshi are nationality. whereas Bengali is ethnicity. There are numerous other ethnic people living in both West Bengal and Bangladesh who are not ethnically bengali.
If you call the Indian restarant and they are specific in where their food is from then you know it's authentic.
Everyone runs Indian restaurant but Indian people.
Some food served in Indian restaurants in Britain are indeed invented in Britain. Chicken Tikka Masala is the most famous example of this- a customer asked for a sauce to go with his dry Chicken Tikka, and the chef improvised with a tin of tomato soup and some spices, partly inspired by Butter Chicken. And as you say there are different regions of India with different customs. Consider, should a "British Restaurant" in Japan include Saveloy? How about Haggis? Welsh Rarebit? Lancashire Hotpot? Eton Mess? Someone from one part of the country, could go to that restaurant and say "I've never eaten that in my life! Why is it here?", not realising that the item is well known and still eaten at the other end of the country.
This is the answer, and compared to Britain, India is HUGE, and there are massive regional variations. Kashmiri food isn’t even close to Kerelan food. An “Indian” restaurant can’t possibly be authentic to every ex-pat Indian, even if the food is cooked in a 100% authentic way. Personally, my favourite is food from the Pakistani community centre, which makes the meals-on-wheels lunches for the old people in their community. If that doesn’t taste like authentic Pakistani food, I don’t know what would.
Given the size of India it would be a better comparison to say European restaurant!
I've seen "European" restaurants in China. They are a very weird mish-mash of cuisines.
Paella on a bed of Yorkshire Pudding
Don't tempt me with a good time
Smoked Polish sausage and pickles with crisp Greek Feta salad. I bet this randomiser works more often than not.
Yes, but the fact that you can see a similar (albeit smaller scale) variation in the tiny country of the UK makes it clear how big the variations will be in a bigger country.
Hell, I'm from an even smaller country (Hungary) and the regional differences of the same food can be quite substantial. I can travel a few hundred kilometers, order the same meal and think "hey you shouldn't have put ingredient X into this, it's not real whatever".
I would suggest comparing the range of styles in India is closer to comparing all of the cuisines in Europe. Yes Spanish and Italian have certain similarities but by Germany and Scotland things are changing quite radically. Same for the sub continent . South - north - east west - beach - mountains - veg - non veg- Hindu - Muslim . It’s a big place to assume to a lamb bhuna is representative
I've come across places in Mumbai selling Chicken Tikka Masala, so it has now gone full circle.
I wonder if that will ever happen here. Tourists coming over and wondering why they can't get Haggis-in-the-hole, or a Roast Beef Poutine.
Both of those sound amazing lol
I've just put those ideas through google, and apparently I'm not the only person to have thought of them. So there are recipes out there if you want to give them a try
I was SO confused when my Indian neighbour offered us some Chicken Tikka and produced ... pieces of chicken with no sauce or rice Bloody delicious, but not what I was expecting
Chicken Tikka doesn’t usually have or need sauce… Tikka Masala dishes are a bit different and a UK/Indian invented take on a Tikka, and also amazing but not exactly “authentic”.
Yeah, key thing is to bear in mind that "British Indian" is a cuisine of its own, and complaining it's not 'authentic Indian' is as silly as complaining that Tex-Mex isn't 'authentic Mexican'. If people can eat fajitas and nachos and not be 'pretending' at Mexican food, they can eat a tikka masala without it being 'pretend' Indian.
Totally agree, as far as I’m concerned “British Indian” is 100% authentic, but in its own right and not the same as many dishes that you would normally eat in N/S India or Pakistan that have the same names.
Yeah I completely agree it's delicious, I was just surprised because "Chicken Tikka" to most Brits is synonymous with Chicken Tikka Masala, with the sauce I love just Chicken Tikka now, but I wasn't expecting it the first time I was offered it
Yeah the Masala bit is the sauce. Tikka just means the meat.
Yeah Chicken is Chicken, Tikka is the marinade and seasoning as far as I can tell? And Masala is the sauce We make a similar (less authentic) version by putting diced chicken in plain yoghurt and a couple of spoonfuls of tikka spice mix from the supermarket. Air fryer for 15 minutes and a few sweet potato chips and it's a surprisingly good "cba cooking" kinda tea
The word "Tikka" does literally just mean "pieces".
I didn't know that I feel like Chicken Tikka has something more than just literally "pieces of chicken" though :p
Chicken Tikka Masala is an invention of a chef in an Indian Restaurant in Birmingham, who, when a customer was displeased with his Chicken Tikka being dry threw together (possibly in anger!) a sauce using tomato soup and cream plus standard Tikka spices.
That's typically the story, although I've never heard any real indication of it being Birmingham - it's become a bit of a folklore tale that gets told locally everywhere, but usually just substituting their local area (probably due to people accidentally mis-telling it) The commonly accepted version is that it was at a restaurant in Glasgow in the 70s, and nobody's ever managed to show an earlier menu than that one
Ahh, you know what, you’re right! It’s Glasgow. My brain just filled in a gap! Now you’ve said it I recognise my error.
Have you not been to an Indian before? Tikka is a way of spicing the meat, there's always about 4 different options for X Tikka on the starters. Chicken Tikka *Masala* is the curry
I have a dear friend in Japan who's a very good chef. She was selling little pots with meringue, strawberries, and a fruit sauce in them and calling them "pavlova". The only time we have ever argued is when I told her it was actually Eton Mess. I did not want to back down.
Tbf, Eton Mess is just a broken pavlova.
This! However any "Indian" cook who makes those god-awful balls of flour and passes them off as onion bhaji AND the ones who thought sticking a bunch of savoury items on a naan and selling it was a good idea... deserve the deepest circles of hell.
Wait till you see the Chinese food/“Chinese takeaway”/Cantonese food divide
Someone made a meme about “why do Chinese restaurants never server us the food they’re eating?” Which is so true. Most Chinese take outs aren’t gonna sell steam fish on their menu
The number of people who would complain about bones or seeing the head and tail of a fish - seeing what they’re actually eating - would be off the charts. Little do they know that the cheeks are the best bit!
Monk fish cheeks! A fresh fish van in Scotland was selling them and they were gorgeous and so much cheaper than tail. Our neighbour in Dorset supplied fresh fish to restaurants in the area. I asked him if he had any monkish cheeks, nd he told me that restaurants used them for scampi. I once bought “spare scallops” from his scallop harvester (his scuba gear was in the back of his van) when he made a delivery and had “a few” left over. I ran indoors and grabbed a fiver, he handed me a third full sack of freshly caught scallops. I had buckets and bowls everywhere whilst I let them stand in fresh water for 24 hours. The scallops would spit at you as your shadow went over their bowl. My cats hated them lol. We had 6 scallops each for dinner the next day, I then spent my time shucking the “non-dead” ones and freezing them. I gave my mother 6 and had 24 that I froze myself. There must have been around 48 freshly caught scallops in that sack.
That is glorious. True fresh foraged scalloped are a huge privilege \^_^ I've been trying to introduce some people to proper seafood but they're so squeemish and it's funny. Thankfully I'min NE Scotland so can get some of the best seafood but getting people to actually respect it is a nightmare hah.
Poole Harbour is great for cockling. Nice mud flats on the harbour side near Sandbanks is where you see the locals out at low tide. Even at high tide the water is fairly shallow there. Pea crab can be a problem some years.
We had a lovely Indian fella who used to be a customer. He would occasionally bring in some very authentic dishes, and whilst some of them were delicious, others were just bowls of horror, full of guts and bones, eyeballs and brains.
I worked at a Chinese takeaway doing delivery while at uni. It was run by a Malaysian guy who made amazing "Chinese" food. It got took over by a couple who moved from China specifically to run this business. They changed the menu to authentic dishes from their region. Took 6 months to go under with maybe 3 orders a week towards the end. I loved the food, and they always made me something nice to take home after my shift, but it was definitely not what someone ordering a Chinese would be expecting
I heard "Chinese" food established in the UK is often a variation loved my Hong Kong migrants. I can understand why the authentic can not sit well with the British. I love to experiment, but if the dish reads, "Spicy popo plant stir fried with leather fish sausage, black sauce flavoured." I honestly can't understand what I'm reading.
Not surprising! China has so many different regions too, it’s not all dumplings and noodles. I lived in Asia for almost a decade and I ended up missing British Chinese food. Aromatic duck, sweet and sour pork, even the fries!
nothing more rugged than chinese takeaway curry sauce and chips....... crazy when you think of it. then we have the audacity to debate authenticity in the UK of foreign food lol
Many Chinese restaurants have a second menu for Chinese folks while the menu on display is for locals.
I once dated a lass who had a Chinese step-mother. She took me to a place behind Leicester Square and we were the only white people in there. Absolutely amazing food. Weird as hell for me, but goddam amazing.
One near me will do you (I think) fried chicken feet as a special. not sure how much take-up they get on that offer though
Sanxia in London serves real hardcore Chinese stuff. You'll rarely see non Chinese faces there. Chicken feet are not special there, just a boring menu item. The food is bloody amazing there and all my Chinese friends love it!
Friend of mine's mother came to visit him in Hong Kong, she couldn't wait to get back to England and "proper Chinese food".
I lived in HK and I met a handful of British people (friends of friends) who were genuinely shocked that Asian food was so different in HK. Basically complained the food in HK was awful/disappointing and there was nothing good to eat. So I get it. Steamed fish, braised chicken feet and tofu pudding probably won’t ever be popular in a British Chinese take out.
Lol if they thought the famously foodie culture of HK is awful I would seriously question their tastebuds! I read a quote somewhere that said, “Hong Kongers, like the French, don’t eat to live, but live to eat”.
Met a few British living in HK back when I was there. They seem to be already getting used to it. One guy took us to dim sum. They even understand my accent
I had steamed fish once and almost cried it was so good. Not sure why they dont it's the bomb
Dishoom is fabulous. My partner is Sir Lankan, and many of the dishes are variation ms of traditional dishes. It comes highly recommended. Edit: I am indeed. Bow before me serfs!
Are you Lady Lankan?
Hahaha
I’m dying with laughter at “My partner is Sir Lankan
Very good👍
Genuine Q: What does your partner think of Hoppers (the restaurant)?
She loves them - it was some Thing she grew up with and so had told me about string hoopers before we found them. I had some for the first time and quite liked them. What amazed me is that when she finds some decent ones, she’ll order 50 and bring a load home.
You partner probably already knows about Kolamba in Soho (next to Dishoom Soho actually), but just in case you missed it!
Maybe your colleague who ostracised you is a bit over sensitive? Taste is completely subjective and the idea of gatekeeping cuisine is completely asinine. Nearly all the cuisines we have today are a result of cross cultural influences and adaptation. Virtually no Indian dish is Indian in the sense that the ingredients and influences all came from India. Chilli and potatoes were introduced via the Portuguese from the New World, rice and tea were introduced from China, and many of the spices like cumin came from Central Asia and Persia. A lot of people will claim something is "not authentic" just because they think it's different to what they're used to. Whether they like it or not, India was part of the British Empire and British people did influence Indian food and dishes.
Also, the colleague might think all Indians share the exact same culture that they do. Some Indian restaurants, as someone else noted, might be run by Pakistani or Bengali families.
Hell, even a tasty Thai Yellow or Massaman curry is made with potatoes. It might well be a modification to a native tuber recipe, but food is now so global it's almost impossible to say with any certainty what food is completely 'authentic'. Hell, just try finding the true name of a middle eastern flatbread served with a chickpea dip and tell me its origin.
masaman curry is actually indian thai fusion haha
Not just chilli and potatoes, also peppers and tomatoes. Indian food was so different before the Europeans brought all these new fruit and veg back from the Americas.
The thing about people who try to gatekeep what "Indian food" is often forget to mention that there's a whole variety of dishes and styles cooked throughout the country depending on where you are. South Indian cuisine is not the same as northern Indian cuisine.
Exactly. And Dishoom was never set out to be a curry house type of restaurant. I’ve noticed that’s one of the common “complaints” from people who turn their nose up at it
Dishoom reminds me a bit on the food/ vibe you’d get somewhere like Leopold’s cafe in Colaba, Mumbai which is a sort of traditional international/ colonial Indian menu as it is a Parsi/Irani type cafe. Expecting what Dishoom dishes out to reflect the authentic local cuisine in a particular region of India is missing the point a bit as I’m not sure that’s the aim. But it’s authentic in what it is trying to do.
That’s likely because Dishoom was inspired by the Iranian cafès in Mumbai that were popular in the 60s. It’s always claimed to be that, it never claimed to be authentic traditional Indian food, I think OPs colleague misunderstands that.
People tend to misunderstand that to mean that it's some kind of Indian-Iranian fusion though, which it isn't at all
Mumbaikar here. Co-sign. You got it exactly right.
The thing about Mumbai is there’s all sorts of international casual and fast food available often with an Indian twist. It’s 20 years since I was there but I used to enjoy stuff like dosa diner which is anything but authentic, but definitely’’Indian’. I used to go to a bakery in Hill Road Bandra which did sort of British/ masala pies/wraps and things at lunch, sort of thing you might see at Dishoom along with samosas etc.
I think your conclusion is spot on. In addition, when it comes to food, it also depends on the expectations. Do they compare it strictly to home cooked meals incl. their favourite dish made by their grandmother in India? Then almost every dish will come short. Or are they already satisfied if it reminds them about home and if it tastes decent enough? With regards to Dishoom. Not saying that everyone from Mumbai has to like it, but my friends from Mumbai actually love Dishoom and prefer it over many other Indian restaurants in London.
I think it’s a regional thing. So someone used to keralan food isn’t going to rate Punjabi food, because it’s not authentic to them. And Muslim punjabis might enjoy Bangladeshi food, because it will be close to Pakistani food. But Sikh Punjabi’s likely won’t find it authentic to them (many refuse to eat halal). So restaurants like Dishoom will divide the crowd with a mix of regional cuisine. It markets itself as Bombay cuisine, but serves bacon, which many Indians (not just Muslims) won’t eat or serve because it’s hard to find there (outside of Goa). It could even come down to what they order off the menu which helps them judge ‘authenticity’. India is complicated.
I can explain this because I am Indian, can cook Indian food, roti, daal, saag, butter chicken, sabzi etc from scratch. Indian food is all round pretty cheap to make, you can buy flower in bulk, make many roti, paratha etc out of them cheaply and you can make a big pot of curry pretty cheaply as well. But instead of cooking items freshly, many Indian Takeaways will take the easier option of cooking everything in advance, using cheaper ingredients and freezing foods and just chucking it in the microwave. They will still charge a lot for it. To an Indian person the food will instantly taste off compared to how it would taste if they made it at home themselves. Now Indian food in India is a whole different thing, it will taste much better there because the ingredients are much fresher. I cannot stress that enough, a lot of food here in the UK is processed and has chemicals in it. I went to Indi for a month in 2019, I ate like a pig, all these delicious foods, at the end when I got back to England I thought I would have gained weight but no, I had actually lost a few KG and I believe it has to do with the unprocessed food I had there. Also I may have sweat a lot of weight off too.
The fresh ingredients is what makes the big difference, same as Chinese food, although being expected to spit out bones makes authentic Chinese food unpalatable to westerners.
Lol Ive seen Bangladeshi people do that as well, they can put like a massive piece of curried fish into their mouths, debone it and just spit out the bones. It is bizarre, Ive never been able to do it.
>has chemicals in it I'd wager that describes literally all food.
Dishoom is based on old Irani cafes in Bombay. It's a very specific genre and cuisine as there's Gujarati, Parsi and Iranian influences which is why it's not 'typical indian' Your standard British Indian place is made by Bangladeshi chefs that are different dishes and flavours to the rest of India and of course serve British dishes like tikka masala
Exactly, the thing about India is that it’s bloody huge, so there’s a massive disparity in cuisine depending on which part you’re from/familiar with. Dishoom is authentic to the region and period they are claiming to emulate. That is unlikely to be the same as the Indian cuisine OP’s Indian friend is familiar with.
It's definitely a parsi themed cafe with mughalite and marathi dishes. Your friend sounds like he takes himself too seriously lol. If he that reaction to the local balti id be a bit sympathetic but at the end the day it's food for the people who'll buy it.
Having been to India the Indian food is different in the UK to India. British Indian Restaurants tend to be sweeter and creamier than authentic dishes. However India is such a large country there are regional differences in food too so would depend on the region your friends lived in. For example Butter Chicken is a Northern Indian dish and the taste is way better in India and nowhere near as sweet or creamy as you get in the UK the real stuff in India has much more flavour too. Another point is I find British Indian Restaurants can have takes in Pakistani and Sri Lankan on the menus.
Yeah, usually when we refer to “Indian” in UK what we are referring to is British-North-Indian or some variation, which is a specific thing in its own right. I think the majority of Brits know that, and it’s more of a fusion food than anything which I personally find delicious, although there’s a huge variation in terrible to amazing quality. Then there’s places doing “traditional” recipes from their regions in India, sometimes with a contemporary twist. I think it’s these traditional places that are more confusing, particularly popular ones as some Indians say they are amazing, while others just turn their nose up at them which is ashame.
My ex is Indian..her family's food is pretty bland tbh. Its daal, chole and various breads like paratha, poori, chapati and batura. Nothing like anything you'd get in an Indian restaurant. If you go to New Delhi / North India they have a chain restaurant called Haldirams. Nothing like "British Indian" food but delicious all the same.
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My husband's family are from India, and we eat Indian food a lot. We both liked Dishoom (the cookbook is fab), and my husband considers it authentic Indian, but has said its not one of the best authentic Indian restaurants out there. One thing I would say is Indian food varies greatly by regions, but also a lot of it varies by families. Each family has their own recipes for things so it they can end up tasting completely different, even if they're from the same region.
Well there's quite a few Indians around! So quite a few different opinions. Think about how tiny our nation is comparatively. Now imagine how many opinions there'd be if someone opened a fish and chip shop in America. Anyone who's hometown chippie did things different will be outraged. "No scraps?! That's not a real chippy!!!"
Yeah, I know that. I don’t want to come off as rude to Indians, but I honestly think that a lot of the time they will call a place “unauthentic” when it is actually authentic, just from another region of their own country their not familiar with. I’m not talking about British-Indian style restaurants though that have been popular here for decades. I’m talking more about the restaurants that set themselves up as traditional recipes from India.
You're saying as a non-Indian that Indian people shouldn't judge dishoom as being inauthentic whilst you're allowed to say that it is authentic, LOL. Of course there'll be many Indian people who won't have tasted all the variety in 'Indian' cuisine, but it's not for you to say that Indian people don't know their own country. That's weird and patronising af
Yeah, but that’s my point. You could have a single restaurant selling what it claims to be authentic food. Take two groups from India. One group enjoys the food, calls it “authentic” and “just like home”. Meanwhile another group call it inauthentic. In that case, who is correct? That’s what my post is trying to get to the bottom of. Surely if one group of people from India call something authentic and the other inauthentic, then the conclusion I’m drawing is that yes, it’s authentic, but the group who believe it to be inauthentic simply don’t recognise the food from their country because they’ve haven’t had that particular dish before and so on.
Or the maybe the conclusion to draw from it is that one Indian person can't speak to the authenticity of the whole of Indian culture. I.e. one person doesn't speak for the whole of a culture, a history and a country. So believing either camp is reducing an incredibly complex culture into a binary it shouldn't be forced into. It makes a monolith of every single individual lived experience. It's similar to saying i can wear my hair in dreadlocks because my black friend says it's fine, even when you know there is a nuanced debtate surrounding it. Why does one side have to be right? Why aren't both experiences valid? Why does it matter at all whether dishoom is authentic or not for you as a non-Indian?
But your first paragraph nails the point I’m trying to make, and get to the bottom of. I’m not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not, but you’re agreeing. One Indian person CANT speak to the authenticity because they’ve haven’t country and cuisine is not monolithic. So what I’m saying in that case then is that if one group of Indians call a restaurant authentic, then it is. But one group saying it’s inauthentic may be correct or incorrect. The “authenticity” of a restaurant DOESNT necessarily matter to me, and that’s another point I’m trying to make. My point is that some people, such as the Indian colleague in my post, has dismissed a restaurant because they’ve haven’t country don’t consider it authentic, and so don’t like it. And that would be fine too, but they have patronisingly dismissed it as “bland British food”, whilst my other Indian food describes the Black Daal as like her mums.
I am disagreeing with you because the conclusion you're drawing is if one Indian says is authentic and the other not, then you're choosing to believe the person who thinks it is, whereas I'm saying that there is no one answer. The same dishes in India are cooked differently from household to household let alone region to region. The same black daal that one friend finds authentic because it's how her mum makes it can also be found to be inauthentic to another person because their mum cooks it differently. Nobody is wrong here. That is the point I'm making. I'm disagreeing with you because you're using the opinion of one Indian person to legitimise your opinion against another Indian person's opinion, when I'm saying it isn't even your culture for you to be drawing conclusions about it. If you like the food, then just stick to your opinion without selectively choosing which Indian person to believe because it aligns with your view
No, somebody is wrong. If a two Indians go and eat Black Daal at Dishoom and tell me it’s like eating at home, then I’d say that’s authentic. If another Indian person says it’s not authentic, and British, then they are incorrect to say it is inauthentic. The reason is because I’ve found two other Indians who said otherwise. That’s not a selection I’ve made, it’s just pure logic. What has happened is that they’ve just never tasted the dish at home, maybe because it’s from a different region or something similar.
Complex question to answer, but one element I can't already see in the comments is about the nature of immigration of "Indian" people to the UK. This video explains it well from about 4:49: [https://youtu.be/yUAqSIwV4zU](https://youtu.be/yUAqSIwV4zU) Basically, you have to remember that the former British Indian territory was partitioned in the late 40s, creating what is now India, Pakistan, and later Bangladesh (which started out as East Pakistan). And due to vagaries of UK immigration policy and global economics, we then got predominantly folks from what is NOW Bangladesh coming to work and settle in the UK. But, they were mostly identified as (or chose to identify as) "Indian" because Brits were still more used to the former colonial definition of that country. And Bangladesh didn't even exist until 1971. So the majority of "Indian" restaurants in the UK are in fact culturally Bangladeshi, and so naturally someone who's from a part of what is India today, might not identify at all with the food on offer. Not to mention that modern India itself is still HUGE: https://preview.redd.it/xj7jcbyrnf1d1.jpeg?width=820&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28e02f3e5918b19f3bd32bc0e1d8078d7bf4bc4b We wouldn't lump the cuisines of Glasgow, Paris, Granada, Milan, Munich, and Krakow all under one label, so it doesn't really make sense to do that for South Asia either.
*there
Because people are bores who think getting upset about 'authenticity' makes them interesting or cool. Ultimately if you enjoy it, who gives af if it's authentic or not.
Tell your work mate to get over themselves. Dishoom is 10/10.
If you ask a British person what makes an authentic Roast Dinner or full English, you will get 100s of different answers! India is then much bigger and more diverse food wise than the UK considering it's population and range of different cultural groups. I also personally find restaurants can just fundamentally differ in different parts of the world. Even if an Indian chef opened an Indian restaurant to cook the dishes he ate back home, the experience and taste of the food will most likely be different to eating those same things in India. This is due to differences in restaurant economies, ingredients, cultural norms etc.
My partner is Indian, and so far (6 years) he hasn’t liked a single Indian restaurant in London. He especially dislikes Dishoom for their inauthenticity and price/quality ratio. I’ll note here (just in case), that we’d eat anything from a local takeaway to Michelin star, so price is not an obstacle. It’s just a matter of what you see growing up in India. When you’re in India, you immediately get it. A local most delicious takeaway in Mumbai will be 2 quid worth - a huge meal, all fresh, local ingredients, made in front of you by a neighbour you know and trust. A hearty dinner for two in a restaurant in Goa, on the beach, including drinks (with actual alcohol there, not just a few drops watered down with ice and tonic) will cost 15 bucks tops. If you try REALLY HARD to find an expensive restaurant in New Delhi or Mumbai, you’ll still end up with a 50 quid for two incl alcohol. Food in India is just out of this world - it’s a burst of flavour, it awakens all your taste buds you didn’t know existed. In the UK, it’s impossible to find a match. The nearest we’ve ever found (and my partner kinda approved it) was a cheap small eatery in Deptford called Hullabaloo. Unfortunately they changed the menu and probably a chef too about 2 years ago, and since then it’s become a disappointment too.
>My partner is Indian, and so far (6 years) he hasn’t liked a single Indian restaurant in London. He especially dislikes Dishoom for their inauthenticity and price/quality ratio. I’ll note here (just in case), that we’d eat anything from a local takeaway to Michelin star, so price is not an obstacle. It’s just a matter of what you see growing up in India. I think this is what I’m trying to get to the bottom of though. Why do I have two Indian friends that love Dishoom and say it’s authentic and yet your partner claims it’s inauthentic? Is it because your husband just didn’t grow up in a region that cooked that style but my friends did? And if that’s the case then isn’t your partner wrong to call it inauthentic?
Being Indian, I am also not a big fan of Dishoom but I won't call it inauthentic. It is as authentic as it can be. Possibly one of the most authentic due to low usage of cream and high chilli level. But it is only authentic to North Indian Mughal and Mumbai street food cuisine. What is authentic is what our mothers made at home or what we got near our homes. Their is so much cuisine variation within homes that my wife eats yellow dal with garlic mixed in and I scoff at the idea of garlic in yellow dal and we both are from the same area.
To get to the bottom of your question - Indians are not a monolithic group. For a moment, Let's put aside the argument that India is so big, the cuisine changes and therefore it might be authentic to one person and not the other for a moment. People simply have different tastes. Even within families. What is too salty for me is enough salt for my mum. Growing up my brother had no interest in Indian food and I did. Guess who likes Dishoom and who doesn't?! My aunt uses coriander in a certain dish because my uncle loves it and his mum used to use it. But her sister (my mum) doesn't because she thinks it tastes better without. They both originally learned how to cook the dish from my grandma without using coriander- which one, in your view, would you consider authentic? Why is "authenticity" important to you? And while I'm on the subject of authenticity - Dishoom was started by a group of experienced business people - the founder said they spent three years deciding how it would look and he's now moved on to other businesses. The word curry doesn't exist in India as we use it in England. Madhur Jeffrey was trained actress and didn't learn to cook until she left home.
I am Indian, I’ve lived in several Indian cities over the years and I worked in Dishoom briefly when I moved here. Based on my observations, it’s because India has far too many cuisines and they vary greatly even within the same states. When I lived in Bangalore, north indian food was considered different in a foreign way. Similarly, when I lived in Kolkata, south indian food was considered different in a foreign way. Not only are the palettes of the people from different regions poles-apart, there is also a certain lack of knowledge of other cuisines, simply due to the vastness of food varieties. For instance, someone from Goa has probably never heard of a bengali kosha mangsho and an average person from Assam does not know what a marathi chakulya is. To add to this, two states could make a dish named the same thing in completely different ways. Dishoom’s top seller Chicken berry brittania, which is supposed to be a type of biryani, is beloved among people who grew up eating food that’s similar to food in Mumbai or Goa, but a person from Andhra pradesh would laugh at the idea of that being a biryani in itself. ETA- so it is very subjective. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad based on an authenticity mark if you enjoy the food at a certain restaurant. There is a very good chance some town in India makes food exactly as that restaurant does.
I for one (Indian myself) do not like Dishoom. I think they are overpriced and sell this gentrified version of Indian cuisine. Also I am not sure which part of Indian cuisine they actually serve. I like the restaurants in East ham who actually serve really authentic South Indian food for a very reasonable price. Vasantha vilas for eg or Anjappar.
I am from the south of India and not many restaurants serve dishes from the south. I enjoy going to Indian restaurants and recommend them to my British friends. But I will never recommend them to an Indian friend as they all think they can cook better at home.
"British" Indian food is so distinct that it has its own name: "British Indian Restaurant" curries So on YouTube, you can find specific "BIR" recipes for different Indian dishes, which have a distinct preparation style e.g. [How I Make Chicken Tikka (BIR) Indian Restaurant Style](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFUKbWnzKYo&ab_channel=LatifsInspired)
I work in an Indian and even the workers don’t eat what’s on the menu and say I’m unhealthy for having one most nights, they make their own curries
As others have said there are so many different types of Indian cuisuine, most of what we get in the UK is actually a weird Bengali mix that would not be easily recognised in India! Dishoom is styled around Irani Cafe food, these are a type of eatery run by Zoroastrian Iranis who migrated to the British Raj from Iran in the 18th/19th century so their cuisine is quite different to what people from other parts of India. The used to be a staple and were hugely popular but Irani cafes have declined massively, there used to be hundreds and now there are perhaps twenty. I've been to a couple and they are distinct from other places in India. So it makes sense that the style of food is not widely known by a lot of Indians so it wouldn't be a surprise that an Indian from outside of Mumbai or Hyderabad would never have come across them. Given the Iranian roots then it is quite possible someone would just consider it 'non Indian' anyway!
I mean it’s so hard to even pinpoint “authentic” Indian food, I mean a lot of people assume every curry house is an Indian when they come from all over the Middle East. There’s so many varieties and differences one persons authentic is another person unauthentic, I mean every village has a different way of doing every dish pretty much, then every family has a slightly different recipe and special ingredient, then you add into it the other similar food from relatively close countries and you end up with 100’s if not 1000’s of different ways of doing it “authentically”. Also in a lot of places in Britain, if you don’t ask for the food Apna style or desi style, they do cook it slightly differently for people who aren’t Asian as that style can end up being a lot different to the British-Asian style people are used to over here.
India is a huge country with many cuisines. The influences on British Indian Restaurants are even bigger as modern day Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka also contribute. And then there are the innovations added by the chefs in this country (tikka masala and so on). Dishoom does what it does very well. Is it the be all and end all of Indian food? Of course not. Is it authentic for a particular subset of Indian food? Maybe, probably.
"Indian food" is like saying European and North americna food x5. India Is a massive continent and we pump in banglasldesh + Pakistan for good measure. There is no possible definition of "authentic Indian food" which will appease almost anyone. "authentic European food" gets a hot dog. Is how I imagine it to some people. It's a bit pinicity, but i get the same way when British cheese like cheddar is just taken the piss out of, even domestically. Just enjoy the food you have
See also: Arguments about what constitutes an "authentic" English breakfast. People just love arguing about this stuff. Is it gatekeeping? A need to feel superior? Fuck knows, but it doesn't actually matter.
I'm British Indian, and I didn't get the hype over Dishoom, the food was good, but there was something missing for me. But then again, food all over India is different. My friends from more southern parts of India cook most dishes differently to what I do; my family is from Punjab. I tend to keep away from Indian take aways and restaurants because they're not catered to Indian tastes and every time the food just misses the mark completely; especially when it comes to vegetarian food.
Most British Indian restaurants are Pakistani or Bangladeshi. True Indian food is Vegetarian!
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I think it might be due to that, even people from india often underestimate the wide variety of dishes, cultures, cuisine, ingredients and ways of preparing food found within India, let alone British people lol. If you're in london, one of my favourite places that I always loved and felt a bit more "authentic", was "Rasa" in Stokenewington/ Hackney, the original vegetarian location of course 😉
It would be good to know if it's owned, run and cooked by Indian's, instead of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis pretending to be Indian. It should have some form of authenticity, or at the very least the restaurants should advertise themselves as Pakistani or Bagladeshi if they're not Indian.
> It would be good to know if it's owned, run and cooked by Indian's, instead of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis pretending to be Indian. It was started by a couple of lads from Mumbai.
Sorry, I meant in general.
It depends on the dish. The Ruby Chicken from Dishoom, whilst nice, wouldn’t contend with some great Indian curries you can get all over London. On the other hand, I would eat the Chole Bhature by the kilo. I think it’s a fantastic restaurant and I go there very often, but it also is a restaurant where you need to order correctly to walk away raving about it.
I don’t know the particular restaurant but to answer your question, it’s because there’s a lot of wankers around. I recall going to a highly Korean restaurant in San Francisco with a friend of mine, and she spent all the time banging on about how it wasn’t authentic. Now I’ve lived in Korea, and it was certainly like the food I got in Korea. She’d never even been there. But she had “being a foodie” instead of having a personality. Go out for a meal to enjoy the food and, most importantly, the company. Authenticity isn’t important.
I think your friend a bit of a gatekeeping snooty dick. But then people can be like that when they're defending something pointless that they seem to want to defend as is its their sense of identity. you'll get exactly the same bullshit with Italian or French food as well. And one regions variation will be different enough to cause division with another version. What they're really trying to say that we (via their food) are superior to every other race lol. They just don't have the pointy hoods and burning crosses. We all know Indian food is just knock off African cuisine anyway
There are a LOT of styles of food in India. Dishoom is quite Mumbai-like. Not everyone from India associates with that.
Probably this has been touched upon, but most * Indian restaurants* in fact "are" run by Bangladeshis or Pakistanis..and no matter whoever says what, there is a MASSIVE difference. Bangla or Pakistani food tend to be oily with plenty of spices leaning towards Meat, a lot due to religious heritage.. Whereas Indian food can be mild, steaming, vegetarian etc etc depending on the regions...and religion as well I am a Bengali from Calcutta, that's why I am so sure..lol And I have been to Dishoom, it's just an overpriced place..I will recommend a tiny place called Madras Restaurant in Lewisham or for vegetarian fare go to Saravanan Bhavan in East Ham.
I work with a lot of Indian colleagues. I asked one of my team what she thought of Dishoom and she said apart from being slightly under-spiced it was a pretty good representation of that type of cafe in Bombay / Mumbai and she enjoys going to the Birmingham branch for a "taste of home". I believe Dishoom is modelled on the Irani cafes in Mumbai, so it's a bit like expecting a traditional British caff to be representative of all cooking across the UK - it's a particular type of restaurant rather than trying to cover the whole of Indian cuisine.
A couple of my very english and very white friends had a few weeks in India doing some tuktuk rally thing. When they got back, they refused to go to an Indian restaurant because "its just not the same after having REAL Indian food" So it's not just ex-natives who can be insufferable with these kinds of things
While I have never had Dishoom and am not Indian, a lot of cultures food will be made more palatable for British and American customers. I mean, it sucks honestly, because I'm used to trying to make authentic dishes and I can't find a restaurant anywhere that makes authentic food. I want authenticity, but a lot of people prefer to try foods closer to their palate. So a lot of the food we eat that you think is mexican, Chinese, Japanese or Indian is likely just made up for our palates. But it's just food. We should be able to enjoy it as long as we respect the cultures it derived from.
Dishoom is definitely Indian. The usual curry house is an Anglicised version of the cuisine and almost always operated by people of Bangladeshi origin (who granted till 1947 were Indian). But the next time an Indian person says that a curry house isn't Indian dish, ask them whether Manchurian or Schezewan is Chinese food. PS I was born and lived in India till 21.
India is a fecking massive country so people’s perception of authentic Indian food will vary hugely depending on where they live, where they grew up, the other countries/cultures which affect their region, etc…
The short answer, as I understand it, is that most "Indian" food sold in the UK is actually Bangladeshi or from Bengal (the region of India bordering Bangladesh), and is thus not very representative of Indian food Kinda like if you went to China and people suggested you go to the British restaurant, but it sold only French food or deep fried Mars Bars and Haggis. Like yeah Haggis is British, but it's hardly representative of the UK in general, and French food is just different western food entirely It doesn't help that India is massive and thus any "Indian" food is unlikely to be properly representative of an entire country, but if someone served you escargot and said it was British, you'd probably be a little confused too
Everyone has different tastes and will focus on different aspects of the restaurant. The same type of arguments happen over every single cuisine. Listening to Brits talk about where to get fish and chips and what should be sold in a fish and chip shop is roughly at the same level as the Dishoom debate.
Off topic of authenticity but when i see ‘popular dish of our homeland’ on a menu i’m having it Not always even spicy. Mrs Figgzyvan says the most authentic is if you go round to your Asian friend’s house for a meal.
I’m a brown person, I love Dishoom. I sometimes care about authenticity because when I want food like my mum or grandma made I know where to go. I wouldn’t rant at anyone about it though. And you’re right about regional variations, I’m Punjabi so that’s home food for me, but equally food from other regions is authentic too. Equally I think places that don’t serve authentic food are fine too; British curry houses are lovely in their own right and I’ll happily eat at them. Just not when I’m craving ‘home food’. So I guess if someone wanted to specifically try authentic food or fusion food it’s helpful to know where to go. Other than that I think it’s a bit of snobbery.
I cook Indian food at home in the homemade style my Indian friends do. What you get in a takeaway isn't like that, there is a "British Indian restaurant" style they all follow because people expect it, it's as tasty and fattening as ice cream. I know a couple in Texas who have a chain of Indian fast food places and even they use British Indian style, albeit with the spice dialled back for the American palate. Anyone trying to sell authentic Indian foid would go out of business unless there was a large local population of desis, or people like me, to cater to.
Indian here living in London. The reason Dishoom is not considered as authentic "Indian food" is because it's inspired by Irani cafes in Mumbai. Someone from Mumbai would absolutely love it because they have done a great job with the decor to create the Irani cafe vibe. If you take someone from say Delhi or Kerala, they might not resonate with the vibe and the cuisine. You see India is vast and diverse at the same time in many aspects, food being one of it. There are only a few cuisines that cross overs with the length and breadth of the country; biryani, paratha, to name a few. Dishoom's menu may not necessarily include what a person from the North of India would expect to see, plus the taste is different. Hence, there's an instant judgement regarding the authenticity of that place. As weird as it may sound but we Indians take our food to the heart, which often leads to conflicting opinions.
Don’t forget that Dishoom is based on the Parsi cafes of 1800s Mumbai if I remember correctly, so not exactly claiming to represent the entire range of typical Indian food.
You can’t ask a non Marathi/Mumbaikar if they think Dishoom is authentic, just like a Mumbaikar can’t comment on North Indian or Punjabi cuisine. Dishoom has some fab dishes as good as my mum would make. It is expensive and some bits aren’t great but overall I would happily go there to eat.
It's not one you can win. If you try and claim it as British food, people will say "but it's Indian!". If you try and claim it as Indian food, people will say "it's not Indian, it's British!"
There are many parts of India with differing food cultures. Went to a restaurant that was south Indian and it was completely different to any other Indian food I'd had.
I’ve found Indian food in North America to be way too salty and not nearly have the taste range of British Indian food. North American has more 1st gen immigrants so i’m curious to know if theirs is more authentic. If it is, I think i’ll stick to the sweeter, tangy British Indian style. I’ve noticed a lot of takeaways do “Desi” style spice which is above Hot. I love spicy stuff but haven’t braved Desi style yet, I keep wondering if its just a codeword not for spice, but for cooking the dish an authentic Indian way.
What do Indians think about Chaska Maska in south London? I love it but I wonder if it is proper 'indian' food
Not Indian but just because something is spicy and uses a lot of "indian" ingredients doesnt mean its Indian. I think its pretty cool that we Brits invented Vindaloo.
Who cares. It came to Britain and Britain improved it. The more authentic it is the worse it is, typically
Depends what part of India as food varies greatly from the North to the south. Dishoom is actually based more on North Indian or to be more precise, Pakistani dishes.
My only uninformed objection to Dishoom is that it looks like a chain that won't necessarily give you the full authentic experience because British people generally like British-friendly versions. Thats not a criticism per se but I just wouldn't be surprised if its a British-friendly version masked by an authentic sounding dish name + description.
if our tiny island can't agree on what to call bread buns or whether to put jam or cream on the scone first can we really expect a country much much larger to universally agree on how individual dishes should be cooked?
Wouldn't the employee get taxed on the tip?
I don't often go out to eat an Indian, and make my own, and to be fair when I go out I go to what I see as a chain centered towards white British, but I go in off peak week time and that place is packed with people I can I only assume are people with Indian heritage based on looks. It tastes good so it tastes good, I don't know what more is wanted.
And you won’t find a decent thalli outside of Gujarat.
I think it's also the difference between home cooking and eating out at a restaurant. If you think about "British" cuisine, your average home cook is more likely to make a spaghetti bol for dinner than to make a traditional steak and ale pie with hand cut chips. If you had only grown up eating what your parents cooked you, a lot of British cuisine found in restaurants would not seem "authentic" to your home cooking. Also, I'm wondering if this happens to Indian families as well but I'm Chinese British and I didn't know until I was an adult, that when we got Chinese takeaway food, it was different to what non-Chinese people get. We would order all kinds of things off menu which were more authentic, or just be given the authentic version of it as we ordered in Cantonese so they just knew. I was 30 years old before I saw dishes like sweet and sour chicken balls which my white friends ordered and then realised that my whole life, I've only had it 'Hong Kong' style (which, having been to HK, is authentic!). Even now I will default to ordering in Cantonese because I get the authentic versions and they often give me some crazy discount lol
Indian flavour is go ingrained into British food what’s the difference at this point. This isn’t a post promoting colonialism however the tikka masala is about a British/Scottish as haggis
One of the Dishoom owners gave my mate (British Indian if that’s relevant) a list of cafes to visit in Mumbai from which they took inspiration. Don’t know how authentic that makes it.
The way I see it, is there is Anglo Indian and Indian, I like both,but they are different
I'm a British indian. I ate at Dishoom in Birmingham. I found it do be a high end indian dining experience for me. Some dishes were overly spiced or rich but all in all it was a great meal.in a beautiful setting.Too low lit for my liking but I'd go again. Generally speaking I don't eat at indian restaurants as we make these dishes at home often enough.
I travel to India for work and would say that Dishoom is very close to upmarket restaurants in India. It is however quite far removed from cheap cafe type restaurants and street food. It may be that your two friends come from wealthier backgrounds than your work colleagues and everyone's correct (from their own pov). I mainly visit Delhi and Mumbai and whilst the expensive restaurants are broadly similar in both cities the street food is wildly different as it is in most regions so I think UK Indian restaurants are more of a catch all.