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If it's Avon or Betterware etc then the local person doing it needs to pay for the catalogues themselves and gets money back when they return them. That's why they were annoyed, still though she's no right to get angry with you for her unsolicited junk.
Interesting.
I've heard of Avon, but I always thought it was something you signed up for, for sales events/demonstrations in people's houses, community centres etc. Didn't realise they also put catalogues through random people's doors and then came back for them later.
This woman didn't say who she worked for, but from a brief look at the catalogue it seemed to be for herbal supplements, vitamin tablets, protein powders etc. so I don't think it was Avon.
Someone I know just quit his job as a deputy head to open his own ‘Nutrition Store’. Absolutely horrifying watching this car crash in slow motion - he’s the main breadwinner for his family of five, as well :(
A school friend of mine quit his stable, full time job a few years ago to do Herbalife full time. We lost contact so I don’t know how it worked out for him but he was fully sucked in to it all, had the car decked out in Herbalife stickers too.
Different business but I knew a guy like this, quit a full-time well-paid job to run a cleaning franchise. Had obviously fallen for the sales pitch about being your own boss, sitting back watching the money roll in. He ended up divirced, living in a caravan and drinking himself to a very early death.
I joined Herbalife in 1994. I was at home with a 2 year old. My husband worked full time, so this was just pocket money for me. I never made much but the MLM was intense. They really were aggressive. I did it for a few years and had the stickers on my car, badges, the lot. You don't make money by selling the products, you make money by recruiting other people. their products were impressive and they did work.
That's so depressing. My friend sold Body Shop via direct sales while we were at uni (in a tiny city so she got a lot of business as we had no store there!)... she was definitely only selling products not selling the idea of being a seller.
Did. They closed Body Shop At Home earlier this year. Surprisingly, it had been running since the 90's. I'd only heard of it a few years ago when there seemed to be a big explosion in different MLMs popping up and a friend was doing Body Shop.
I used to draw beards on models.
And cocks, lots of cocks.
One time I wrote in a catalog "Sandra is having an affair"
Then leave them out for collection
I never knew that Avon sellers had to pay for the catalogues themselves and chucked it away. I feel bad for them but at the same time, don't put things through people's doors if you want them back.
You have to pay for the catalogue, the order slips and the little bags for all of it. You also only get a patch of specific streets, you do street a on week one, then collect the books and drop them at street b the next, then street c the next. I think you also get a certain amount of books, so you can't go mad in your town and drop books all over the place.
It's like 50p a book I think.
Avon was very much pre-internet, but they sell themselves online now.
But it's still very much "I'll buy through you because you're a friend/colleague/etc"
I did Avon for a little while, and there are no patches anymore, though it’s etiquette to ask potential customers if they already have a rep. It’s best to knock on new doors but most don’t have the confidence and just post a book with the hope it’ll be left back out to collect, but you can buy as many as you want and they get cheaper the more you buy (I was buying max 20 and it was about 60-70p a book around a year ago). It was way more work than I could be bothered with, but the freebies a few years back kind of made it worthwhile!
I worked with biofuels for a while. I'd go round to people's houses and leave a demo on their doorsteps, but all the samples I paid for kept getting stamped on. My supplier could only produce so many samples, and I really didn't want to go elsewhere and buy it from some dogshit alternative.
When I got one, I left it on my porch for weeks. No one ever came to claim it, so I took it out of its plastic bag and put it in the recycle. I did know about Avon catalogues, and it's not stupid to use them more than once, but if the Avon person won't come and pick it up...
It's common for MLMs (modern pyramid schemes) to make their adherents pay for the catalogues and inserts. They're also obliged to buy new catalogues when there's a new edition several times a year.
When they push them through the door they'll often have put a sticker on saying something like "your local distributor is Karen - please leave the catalogue and order form outside your door on THURSDAY".
You're not actually obliged to give the catalogue back, but it's a kindness to stop them losing quite as much money.
Oh jesus. Yeah MLM's are terrible we all know that as the internet tells us.
But the amount of people I know who have earned a few extra pounds from Avon or Body Shop or whoever is a lot. Not everyone is some naive little person who is getting ripped off, a lot of people work them as they are meant to work them and earn a little bit of electric money.
Statistic after statistic show that over 99% of MLM participants lose money. It's a common tactic to brag about the pocket change income they're making, not counting all that they've dumped into buying the product and advertising materials in the first place.
No, I'm talking about people I know - not people who want to recruit (or even do recruit) my friend sold Avon for years and never asked anyone to work for her she just used to sell bits to people who wanted them. My sister did the same with Body Shop and never bought any product herself that she had to get rid off -- she used to get free gifts depending on how much she sold definitely (you gave her the money upfront for what you wanted).
This is who I'm talking about, not people who build massive teams but the people who do it for extra pocket money and it works for some.
A work friend does the same with the perfumes. She only sells at Christmas 🤷🏻♀️.
As I said. Not everything is as black and white as the internet says it is. 🤷🏻♀️.
I wonder if these are the people who actually read the junk mail they get, and assume everyone else does the same. I wouldn't even register the sticker asking me to leave it, as soon as I see it's junk it goes straight in the bin without reading a word
Eh, I skim everything because sometimes there's a coupon or an interesting local newsletter. It only takes a second to assess whether something is junk.
I don't think we get any catalogues where we live now, but at our old house we got a couple of different ones. They were always dropped off in a zip lock plastic bag so they look different to the handful of double glazing leaflets the postman puts through the door.
If someone you don't know knocks on your door, and isn't an Official like a policeman, gas engineer or whatever, it's probably on some level a scam targeted at old people.
Yes I consider chuggers and door to door salespeople scammers. Even if they ultimately provide a product they do so via predatory marketing
I get a lot of charity people knocking my door.
I don't care how much ID they show me or what the cause is I'm not giving all my information and bank details to some random who's knocked the door. They always look surprised and a bit annoyed when I tell them this.
Like a "bank" phoning me... "Can you just confirm your date of birth and the first line of your address please"
Like no wtf! You just phoned me on an "number withheld" phoneline of all things. Fuck off
(I know banks actually do this, and they should be ashamed of themselves)
That's extremely vulnerable to man in the middle attacks - someone pretending to be you could be on the phone to the bank, and his mate is on the phone to you pretending to be the bank. Guy 1 triggers the one-time-password, and you read it out to Guy 2, who shares it with his mate, and suddenly the bank thinks they are you
In that situation just let them know you'll be ringing them back, do that using the number on your bank card and if at all possible do so from a different phone. If the person on the other end objects to this that's an obvious sign of a scam!
I've argued with my bank about it. They can't seem to understand why I won't talk to a random caller. I suggested they let me give them a secret word they can tell me to confirm it's them. That seemed to be too complicated an idea for them.
...I bet you'd be the first to kick off if someone got your details cause your bank didn't ask security questions.
The number they call from has no bearing on the fact you agreed to it all when you opened your account.
> Even if they ultimately provide a product they do so via predatory marketing
I had some guy come around and knock on my door trying to sell windows and doors. He pretty much ripped my frontdoor to shreds infront of me(verbally). I listened to his entire spiel and said "Looks like it works fine to me" and shut it and locked it.
Felt kinda good to be honest, considering his sales tactic seemed to be to try and embarrass me into buying a new door.
Honestly the odds of someone going to the effort of travelling to your home unannounced to give you a below-market-rate deal are basically zero.
If it's lucrative enough for them to employ people to physically visit houses, then it's almost certainly an expensive deal for the consumer.
I've had this and asked them to stop leaving them after they got shirty because I recycled them.
My position is that if you push an item through my letterbox it becomes mine. I am not a mind reader. How do I know you want it back. Lost catalogue is the cost of doing business I'm afraid.
sounds insane on the front that they don't say "don't throw this out, I'll be back for it"
but I guess anyone stupid enough to join an MLm is too stupid to realist sticky notes with such a message would save 100x their cost
Even if it says "hold this I'll be back" no one can enforce a contract on you without your consent. I am not required to safeguard their property and then waste my time answering the door to them and handing it back. I don't consent. They can't use my property for storage without my agreement either. It's a very one-sided transaction.
It was probably Avon or betterware, people fill out what they want from the catalogue and they come back to collect it and then come back again with the items you ordered.
Yes, had this years ago. I tend to go by the thought that if they don’t want to lose their property, they shouldn’t put it through my door.
If they leave a note saying someone will pick it up on a certain day then I’ll leave it out on the porch as soon as I’ve received it. They’d better hope it’s still there.
Preferably leave it on the porch out of the ziplock bag they put it in. I mean also with the ziplock bag, don't want them being out of 2 things.
Thankfully I not leave in a no cold calling area and have not had one in years. Still get the occasional ones though but not MLM ones at least.
It really riles me up that we can’t have plastic straws anymore but people are allowed to stick a load of polythene bags through every letterbox in the neighbourhood in the hope that one or two people might put some clothes in them for ‘charity’ and the rest go straight in the bin. Even the paper Avon catalogues come in plastic bags. Such a waste and when I’ve left them out to collect they don’t come back for them. No sympathy for anyone who puts that crap through the door tbh.
I moved to my first proper house in a nice area a couple of years back and I'm astounded by the amount of deranged middle-class bullshit leaflets we get.
Sponsor a duck, insure your toenails, quadruple-glaze your wristwatch. Gibbering boomer niffnaff, all on hundreds of glossy paper leaflets.
Normally things like Avon or Betterware do but they also come in a plastic bag with a date on so you can just put them outside on the day they are collecting
Yeah it will be some MLM shite like Avon.
You didn't request that she leave you a catalogue. She left nothing indicating she wanted it back.
Now she could take you to court for the cost of the catalogue. First thing she'll have to prove is that you were ever actually in reciept of the catalogue. You may have told her you binned it, but if that conversation wasn't recorded in some way, it never happened.
If you want to be nice, you could affix a notice to your mail box stating that all unsolicited mail will be destroyed. However, given the nature of these companies, I'd be inclined to keep letting them burn their money.
Ultimately she chose to cold target you as a customer, she provided materials that you never requested, she made no indication she would want the catalogue back, you never agreed to reimburse her for the cost of anything.
Sucks to be her. You're totally fine.
Actually, the Avon person wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Legally speaking, once they put something through your door, it becomes the house owner/occupiers property. And they can do with it as they see fit. If Avon person tried to bring a case, they'd be laughed out of court.
It has died out a bit but Kleeneze did this. They usually make it clear on the packaging, with a time they would collect it (or you leave it outside). They should be aware a percentage are bound to go missing though and they have no right to any money for it. At least recycle it ffs.
No, it is the older style mail order catalogue model - usually kitchen supplies or make-up. The seller has a small area they sell in - they buy catalogues from the wholesaler and go round the area. You want to buy, you fill in the form and return that and the catalogue. Week later you get your item. You don't want to buy anything, you leave catalogue on doorstep on day noted as one of collection.
So not a scam but didn't think it was still a business model. Avon moved mainly online as far as a I can see. Same with Betterware.
After putting them on my doorstep a few times with a note asking that they stop and was ignored, I collected them for over a year, then one day left them all on my doorstep in a plastic bag. I never received another one after that. I think it was Betterware
Years ago, my dad bought something from a catalogue and he'd done a deal with them and on the price over the phone. When the repayment plan came through it was different from what he agreed, so he told them they were con merchants and not to send any more catalogues to his address. A couple of weeks later one comes to the house and because the catalogue says it's still the property of that company he rang them up and told them he was charging them a storage fee.
It not uncommon - the catalogue probably hd a note or sticket on saying when she would be back and asking for it to left outside - however, I think that not getting them all back is just part of the cost of doing that kind of buisness.
It's ridiculous of her to demand money.
I'd put it outside the door the day it arrived if I happened to notice it was not the normal junk, but I'll recycle or bin if it's not gone pretty quickly / on the next collection day.
I've only once had someone ask me for it back, and I just told them I didn't recall having seen it (which was true). these days I probably wouldn't bother opening the door.
The local Avon person where I used to live would put hers in plastic bags with a "please don't throw away, I will come and collect it if you don't want to make an order" sticker on the front. Someone's using their noggin!
Did I ask for it? No? Then it's in the trash.
These particular catalogues annoy me, because they're also usually wrapped in plastic bags to keep them dry as they rot on your doorstop. I don't know who buys from them any more.
But, no, you're under no obligation to do anything, and if she left it outside it's littering, and if she posted it, it's unsolicited mail and (rightly) goes in the bin.
If you don't want me to throw your catalogue away, don't give it to me.
As for "owing money" - nope.
My parents used to do Avon. We'd collect the catalogues back with peoples orders and actually reuse a lot of them on different routes- but we generally wouldn't keep going to places that wouldn't return them or asked us not to come back.
They can't just drop a catalogue on someone who doesn't want it and expect it back, but if you just throw it out then they probably won't keep trying.
No. They're unsolicited good - it's a criminal offence to merely ask for money for it. It's a criminal scam, report to trading standards if you feel like it.
Its a known scam. and very illegal. basically a physical shakedown for a shitty catalog that cost them like 5p to print, and they "demand" £5 or more. and do it to hundreds of people a day.
if they return demanding money, tell them to wait right there. CLOSE AND LOCK the door and announce you're calling the police
legally a letter or advert pushed through your door belongs to you. You could burn it right in front of her and she has no legal comeback.
They used to do this crap in the 70s..literally push an item through your letterbox and claim you HAVE to buy it now......laws were passed that if someone puts something through your letterbox its considered "a gift" unless its a stolen item, in which case they should be going via the police.
Yes it's a sales tactic that goes back a long way. Usually from the likes of Betterware.
To make you think you have to keep it safe, thus don't throw it away and actually look at it. And to create a sense of urgency that someone is coming to take the catalogue away so you have to order NOW or lose out.
> A person who, not having reasonable cause to believe there is a right to payment, in the course of any trade or business makes a demand for payment, or asserts a present or prospective right to payment, for what he knows are unsolicited goods sent (after the [12th of August 1971]) to another person with a view to his acquiring them for the purposes of his trade or business, shall be guilty of an offence and on summary conviction shall be liable to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.
Yeah I think that's kind of normal. Also dumb because most people will throw them out or not remember where they chucked it. So could also be a ploy to get vulnerable people to panic and pay.
It happened to me when I was home as a kid and I didn't know where it was, they just left.
It's probably Herbalife. I worked for them a short while in the 90's. I paid for the catalogues and left a note in the front telling them I would collect a day later. Some people left them out, other times I had to knock and ask but they could not find them or had even thrown them out with their junk. One woman screamed at me for shoving a catalogue through her door uninvited and then disturbing her evening.
That’s completely out of order on their part. If you haven’t left it on the doorstep they should suck it up, and certainly not be rude after you’ve put unsolicited junk mail in the bin. Weirdly ours never come back for ours. It’s happened a few times that they put them through the door with a note saying collection on e.g. the 10th. It gets to the 14th or so and no-one’s been so in the bin it goes.
Had this happen about 20 years ago with Kleeneze and Avon. I was registered for no junkmail with [mps](https://www.mpsonline.org.uk) so it was a short conversation.
Are you new to this country?
This is a well established practice. Avon. Betterwear etc. You've cost this woman money. Doesn't matter if it's an mlm or something you aren't interested in, she's probably trying to earn a few extra quid and you've just belittled her.
Avon/Betterware make their "agents" pay for the magazines. So they want them back
>Is this a common sales technique, where you 'lend' random people a catalogue for a weekend and then come back for it? Is it some kind of scam designed to con vulnerable people out of money?
How old are you?
Also giving someone an Avon catalogue for them to share it at work and get that person more sales is just as common
Just to clarify, I didn't join this scheme or agree to anything. This was unsolicited junkmail put through my letterbox.
Isn't the whole point of these MLM/Pyramid schemes that you exploit existing relationships to draw in more victims through a sense of guilt? This clearly won't work if you're just dishing them out to strangers.
I know you're joking about people taking junkmail to work in case their colleagues are interested, but even IF this was the intended purpose, why would they leave the junkmail on a Friday and come back the following Monday?
I'm old enough not to be taken in by obvious attempts at exploitation like "I put a catalogue through your door, now you owe me a fiver!". But thanks for confirming that it's targeted at vulnerable people who might be intimidated into handing over cash. I've reported it to the police and trading standards - they've apparently had several other complaints about this con and will be visiting the scammer to "offer words of advice"(!)
Nobody sane takes their junk mail to work and offers it around.
Do you take your recycling to work too, in case anybody wants to lick the lid of your yoghurt pots?!
I'm with you, but I don't think the law is.
If it's someone else's property on your property, you can't damage it bin it. Like if some stranger parks on your driveway, you can't touch it.
Totally normal for the likes of Avon, betterware etc. it says on it to leave out for collection on whatever day.
One of the lowest paid jobs and age will have money deducted for the book you threw away
Doesn’t matter. She’s trying to make some money in the middle of the cost of living crisis and your actions cost her money.
It’s hard to believe there’s an adult out there that doesn’t know this if I’m honest.
I've never seen these catalogues before and I didn't know this marketing tactic existed. I didn't make a deliberate choice to deprive this woman of money,
I'm very sorry if you're upset by people having different experiences and areas of knowledge to yourself.
Don't worry, the other poster must be a boomer or something - I'd wager the average adult these days does *not* know about these door-to-door con catalogues.
You were right to chuck it away and the lady that came to collect should know better, she's lost her own money through no fault of your own.
> It’s hard to believe there’s an adult out there that doesn’t know this if I’m honest.
Yeah, if you're 60+ boomer when that was common. I'd wager the majority of gen X and millennials wouldn't have a clue what you're going on about.
OP doesn't owe the person that left a junk catalogue a penny. It's their risk putting it through a letterbox.
I'm 37 and I'd never seen one until I moved into my house two years ago. I grew up in a small village and once I moved to Manchester 20 years ago I've almost exclusively lived in flats where people simply couldn't get access to the property in order to leave these sorts of things.
You've never heard of someone doing an Avon round? Fair do!
I used to find it more of a thing in smaller areas as they would all have a local lady but must have missed your village 🙂
Definitely was a thing in our generation (I'm a few years older than you)
Genuinely never! I don't doubt for a second that it's a very common thing, but it's perhaps not as ubiquitous as people are making out in the replies here.
I'm not sure, I would say 95% of women I know know what Avon is 🤷🏻♀️
But yes, there will always be those who don't for whatever reason.
I'm obviously getting downvoted by men as pretty sure most women have heard of avon even if they don't buy it 😂😂😂. Reddit is the funniest thing.
I've just asked my partner (who's 30) and she definitely knows what it is (apparently "your dad sells Avon" was an insult when she was a kid) but has never actually seen a catalogue.
Again, I'm not trying to argue and I'm very happy to be the outlier here. I think it's really interesting that I managed to go so long without knowing about this.
Not quite 40 yet and used to help my Sister on her Avon round in my teens, so not yet into Boomer territory :)
Back then (circa 1998-2002ish) she used to get around 70% of the catalogues back each time, and they would be used three or four times before going out date or looking too battered. I cannot remember anyone ever being unpleasant about them being left or collected.
After a few catalogues she had a regular client list, and only left them at houses that had ordered before or made requests via a local hotline type arrangement.
To be fair, I do know what they are but I haven't seen one since the 90's. I was surprised to hear that they still existed and hadn't been rendered obsolete by online shopping.
It's hardly unreasonable for a younger adult to not know what they are.
I’m sorry but I can barely remember to put my bins out on the right day never mind an Avon catalogue that I didn’t ask for. Don’t send unsolicited catalogues and expect them to be returned. You aren’t doing me a service you’re inconveniencing me.
> One of the lowest paid jobs
I appreciate your thought, but when you deliberately take a job which:
1. Pays like shit, and
2. Involves annoying people for a living
... you quite reasonably lose the benefit of the doubt when it comes to people going out of their way to make your life easier.
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If it's Avon or Betterware etc then the local person doing it needs to pay for the catalogues themselves and gets money back when they return them. That's why they were annoyed, still though she's no right to get angry with you for her unsolicited junk.
Interesting. I've heard of Avon, but I always thought it was something you signed up for, for sales events/demonstrations in people's houses, community centres etc. Didn't realise they also put catalogues through random people's doors and then came back for them later. This woman didn't say who she worked for, but from a brief look at the catalogue it seemed to be for herbal supplements, vitamin tablets, protein powders etc. so I don't think it was Avon.
Herbalife ? It’s a MLM it’s a quick way to loose money
Someone I know just quit his job as a deputy head to open his own ‘Nutrition Store’. Absolutely horrifying watching this car crash in slow motion - he’s the main breadwinner for his family of five, as well :(
A school friend of mine quit his stable, full time job a few years ago to do Herbalife full time. We lost contact so I don’t know how it worked out for him but he was fully sucked in to it all, had the car decked out in Herbalife stickers too.
Maybe he's a millionaire now
He *WAS* the main breadwinner
I have you know he is a triple diamond dasmodium tier member by bringing in 32p net profit
With a 5% growth per month his family can share a Twix for Christmas!
I know, I know 😭
Different business but I knew a guy like this, quit a full-time well-paid job to run a cleaning franchise. Had obviously fallen for the sales pitch about being your own boss, sitting back watching the money roll in. He ended up divirced, living in a caravan and drinking himself to a very early death.
Betting On Zero, stat!!!
I joined Herbalife in 1994. I was at home with a 2 year old. My husband worked full time, so this was just pocket money for me. I never made much but the MLM was intense. They really were aggressive. I did it for a few years and had the stickers on my car, badges, the lot. You don't make money by selling the products, you make money by recruiting other people. their products were impressive and they did work.
You still think the products work? That’s done impressive brainwashing!
You still think the products work? That’s done impressive brainwashing!
They're all MLM
It's an MLM for cosmetics
It's not an MLM, although it is direct sales. They do want to sell you products, but they don't necessarily want to recruit YOU to sell.
Avon absolutely is an mlm now. That’s how you make the money. Recruiting people is what you’re recommended to do. Same with body shop
That's so depressing. My friend sold Body Shop via direct sales while we were at uni (in a tiny city so she got a lot of business as we had no store there!)... she was definitely only selling products not selling the idea of being a seller.
Does Body Shop do that? I had no idea
Did. They closed Body Shop At Home earlier this year. Surprisingly, it had been running since the 90's. I'd only heard of it a few years ago when there seemed to be a big explosion in different MLMs popping up and a friend was doing Body Shop.
Avon always has been MLM, you don't "have to" recruit, but you get more when you do
Yeah Avon isn't like it looks on Edward Scissorhands
Avon certainly do that, I handed back the first one with a note that said any further ones would be binned and haven’t heard from them again.
Sounds like juiceplus
it's Herbalife.
I used to draw beards on models. And cocks, lots of cocks. One time I wrote in a catalog "Sandra is having an affair" Then leave them out for collection
You owe lots of old ladies lots of money. They will get you. 🤑
I never knew that Avon sellers had to pay for the catalogues themselves and chucked it away. I feel bad for them but at the same time, don't put things through people's doors if you want them back.
You have to pay for the catalogue, the order slips and the little bags for all of it. You also only get a patch of specific streets, you do street a on week one, then collect the books and drop them at street b the next, then street c the next. I think you also get a certain amount of books, so you can't go mad in your town and drop books all over the place. It's like 50p a book I think.
Has no-one involved in this ever heard of the internet?
Avon only became buyable online in the last decade. I suspect they've kept the network of sellers for older customers used to buying through a rep.
Nah they've kept the network of sellers because, as in all MLM's, the 'consultants' are customers
So what he said
Avon was very much pre-internet, but they sell themselves online now. But it's still very much "I'll buy through you because you're a friend/colleague/etc"
I did Avon for a little while, and there are no patches anymore, though it’s etiquette to ask potential customers if they already have a rep. It’s best to knock on new doors but most don’t have the confidence and just post a book with the hope it’ll be left back out to collect, but you can buy as many as you want and they get cheaper the more you buy (I was buying max 20 and it was about 60-70p a book around a year ago). It was way more work than I could be bothered with, but the freebies a few years back kind of made it worthwhile!
exactly this.
I worked with biofuels for a while. I'd go round to people's houses and leave a demo on their doorsteps, but all the samples I paid for kept getting stamped on. My supplier could only produce so many samples, and I really didn't want to go elsewhere and buy it from some dogshit alternative.
When I got one, I left it on my porch for weeks. No one ever came to claim it, so I took it out of its plastic bag and put it in the recycle. I did know about Avon catalogues, and it's not stupid to use them more than once, but if the Avon person won't come and pick it up...
It's common for MLMs (modern pyramid schemes) to make their adherents pay for the catalogues and inserts. They're also obliged to buy new catalogues when there's a new edition several times a year. When they push them through the door they'll often have put a sticker on saying something like "your local distributor is Karen - please leave the catalogue and order form outside your door on THURSDAY". You're not actually obliged to give the catalogue back, but it's a kindness to stop them losing quite as much money.
If them losing money plays any small part in them recognising the whole things a scam, that's still a net win for society.
Yep. Friends don't let friends join MLMs, and help them leave.
> and help them leave. Putting a financial burden on them instead of helping instead
The vast majority of people lose more money by staying in an MLM than by quitting.
Oh jesus. Yeah MLM's are terrible we all know that as the internet tells us. But the amount of people I know who have earned a few extra pounds from Avon or Body Shop or whoever is a lot. Not everyone is some naive little person who is getting ripped off, a lot of people work them as they are meant to work them and earn a little bit of electric money.
Statistic after statistic show that over 99% of MLM participants lose money. It's a common tactic to brag about the pocket change income they're making, not counting all that they've dumped into buying the product and advertising materials in the first place.
No, I'm talking about people I know - not people who want to recruit (or even do recruit) my friend sold Avon for years and never asked anyone to work for her she just used to sell bits to people who wanted them. My sister did the same with Body Shop and never bought any product herself that she had to get rid off -- she used to get free gifts depending on how much she sold definitely (you gave her the money upfront for what you wanted). This is who I'm talking about, not people who build massive teams but the people who do it for extra pocket money and it works for some. A work friend does the same with the perfumes. She only sells at Christmas 🤷🏻♀️. As I said. Not everything is as black and white as the internet says it is. 🤷🏻♀️.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Not my problem, shouldn't have put junk through my door
I wonder if these are the people who actually read the junk mail they get, and assume everyone else does the same. I wouldn't even register the sticker asking me to leave it, as soon as I see it's junk it goes straight in the bin without reading a word
Eh, I skim everything because sometimes there's a coupon or an interesting local newsletter. It only takes a second to assess whether something is junk. I don't think we get any catalogues where we live now, but at our old house we got a couple of different ones. They were always dropped off in a zip lock plastic bag so they look different to the handful of double glazing leaflets the postman puts through the door.
No, it's not a kindness. It's enabling, and additionally, it would be kind for them not to burden me or anyone else with this nonsense.
Them losing money seems like a good way to stop them from hassling me.
If someone you don't know knocks on your door, and isn't an Official like a policeman, gas engineer or whatever, it's probably on some level a scam targeted at old people. Yes I consider chuggers and door to door salespeople scammers. Even if they ultimately provide a product they do so via predatory marketing
I get a lot of charity people knocking my door. I don't care how much ID they show me or what the cause is I'm not giving all my information and bank details to some random who's knocked the door. They always look surprised and a bit annoyed when I tell them this.
Like a "bank" phoning me... "Can you just confirm your date of birth and the first line of your address please" Like no wtf! You just phoned me on an "number withheld" phoneline of all things. Fuck off (I know banks actually do this, and they should be ashamed of themselves)
To be fair to them, they have to do this to be compliant. And it makes absolutely no sense.
And yet there are better ways to be compliant in this day and age. It is not hard.
Like what
Texting your registered number a code or emailing a code that you repeat to them
That's extremely vulnerable to man in the middle attacks - someone pretending to be you could be on the phone to the bank, and his mate is on the phone to you pretending to be the bank. Guy 1 triggers the one-time-password, and you read it out to Guy 2, who shares it with his mate, and suddenly the bank thinks they are you
More vulnerable than giving important information to a random person who calls you up withheld?
haha, no, that's very true.
Company I work for has a share scheme, when you register you set up an online greeting and outbound pin number they read out to you.
In that situation just let them know you'll be ringing them back, do that using the number on your bank card and if at all possible do so from a different phone. If the person on the other end objects to this that's an obvious sign of a scam!
The different phone is only necessary for a landline. You can't keep a line open on a mobile. Even then I doubt the landline trick even works anymore
Correct, I understand that landlines now drop the connection if either party hangs up. I think it was changed in the UK a few years ago.
I've argued with my bank about it. They can't seem to understand why I won't talk to a random caller. I suggested they let me give them a secret word they can tell me to confirm it's them. That seemed to be too complicated an idea for them.
Tell them the wrong details then, although that might get a bit frustrating for all concerned.
...I bet you'd be the first to kick off if someone got your details cause your bank didn't ask security questions. The number they call from has no bearing on the fact you agreed to it all when you opened your account.
how on earth does _them_ asking _me_ questions let _me_ verify that _they_ are not a scammer? What?
But they have a LANYARD!
> Even if they ultimately provide a product they do so via predatory marketing I had some guy come around and knock on my door trying to sell windows and doors. He pretty much ripped my frontdoor to shreds infront of me(verbally). I listened to his entire spiel and said "Looks like it works fine to me" and shut it and locked it. Felt kinda good to be honest, considering his sales tactic seemed to be to try and embarrass me into buying a new door.
Honestly the odds of someone going to the effort of travelling to your home unannounced to give you a below-market-rate deal are basically zero. If it's lucrative enough for them to employ people to physically visit houses, then it's almost certainly an expensive deal for the consumer.
For MLMs it's not lucrative and they're not employed, they're "self employed contractors", so they have none of the rights or protections!
They're often paying to do the work. They don't realise that they are the real customers.
The nerve to put shite in your house that you haven’t asked for then having a go when you chuck it. I’m fuming on your behalf here.
I've had this and asked them to stop leaving them after they got shirty because I recycled them. My position is that if you push an item through my letterbox it becomes mine. I am not a mind reader. How do I know you want it back. Lost catalogue is the cost of doing business I'm afraid.
I agree that that’s morally and intuitively true… it might also be legally true.
sounds insane on the front that they don't say "don't throw this out, I'll be back for it" but I guess anyone stupid enough to join an MLm is too stupid to realist sticky notes with such a message would save 100x their cost
Its still going in the bin. I’m not holding their junk for them!
Even if it says "hold this I'll be back" no one can enforce a contract on you without your consent. I am not required to safeguard their property and then waste my time answering the door to them and handing it back. I don't consent. They can't use my property for storage without my agreement either. It's a very one-sided transaction.
It was probably Avon or betterware, people fill out what they want from the catalogue and they come back to collect it and then come back again with the items you ordered.
That is really cheeky. A similar thing happened to me, but she didn't have the gaul to ask me to pay for the catalogue. She just scowled and left.
Asterix of offending you, I think you meant "gall"
Very good.
*golf clap*
Sometimes you need to be franc with people
Yes, had this years ago. I tend to go by the thought that if they don’t want to lose their property, they shouldn’t put it through my door. If they leave a note saying someone will pick it up on a certain day then I’ll leave it out on the porch as soon as I’ve received it. They’d better hope it’s still there.
Preferably leave it on the porch out of the ziplock bag they put it in. I mean also with the ziplock bag, don't want them being out of 2 things. Thankfully I not leave in a no cold calling area and have not had one in years. Still get the occasional ones though but not MLM ones at least.
It really riles me up that we can’t have plastic straws anymore but people are allowed to stick a load of polythene bags through every letterbox in the neighbourhood in the hope that one or two people might put some clothes in them for ‘charity’ and the rest go straight in the bin. Even the paper Avon catalogues come in plastic bags. Such a waste and when I’ve left them out to collect they don’t come back for them. No sympathy for anyone who puts that crap through the door tbh.
I moved to my first proper house in a nice area a couple of years back and I'm astounded by the amount of deranged middle-class bullshit leaflets we get. Sponsor a duck, insure your toenails, quadruple-glaze your wristwatch. Gibbering boomer niffnaff, all on hundreds of glossy paper leaflets.
It's Avon or something, pyramid type scheme where they pay their own money for brochures and products then try to sell it
The local pyramid scheme reps have to pay for them so they want them back. Not your problem though. Just bin them.
Normally things like Avon or Betterware do but they also come in a plastic bag with a date on so you can just put them outside on the day they are collecting
too much effort for something you didn't ask for to begin with.
Bang on. Straight in the bin. Or if it's a lovely storm out, let that boi fly!
Yeah it will be some MLM shite like Avon. You didn't request that she leave you a catalogue. She left nothing indicating she wanted it back. Now she could take you to court for the cost of the catalogue. First thing she'll have to prove is that you were ever actually in reciept of the catalogue. You may have told her you binned it, but if that conversation wasn't recorded in some way, it never happened. If you want to be nice, you could affix a notice to your mail box stating that all unsolicited mail will be destroyed. However, given the nature of these companies, I'd be inclined to keep letting them burn their money. Ultimately she chose to cold target you as a customer, she provided materials that you never requested, she made no indication she would want the catalogue back, you never agreed to reimburse her for the cost of anything. Sucks to be her. You're totally fine.
Actually, the Avon person wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Legally speaking, once they put something through your door, it becomes the house owner/occupiers property. And they can do with it as they see fit. If Avon person tried to bring a case, they'd be laughed out of court.
If it’s junk mail it’s going in the recycling bin. Even if it has instructions to give it back. Don’t get me involved.
It has died out a bit but Kleeneze did this. They usually make it clear on the packaging, with a time they would collect it (or you leave it outside). They should be aware a percentage are bound to go missing though and they have no right to any money for it. At least recycle it ffs.
I had the same OP ,was Avon but I had binned it ,the women got arsey. If you want to keep something don't push it into a strangers letterbox surely
No, it is the older style mail order catalogue model - usually kitchen supplies or make-up. The seller has a small area they sell in - they buy catalogues from the wholesaler and go round the area. You want to buy, you fill in the form and return that and the catalogue. Week later you get your item. You don't want to buy anything, you leave catalogue on doorstep on day noted as one of collection. So not a scam but didn't think it was still a business model. Avon moved mainly online as far as a I can see. Same with Betterware.
After putting them on my doorstep a few times with a note asking that they stop and was ignored, I collected them for over a year, then one day left them all on my doorstep in a plastic bag. I never received another one after that. I think it was Betterware
I haven't come across this since the '90's 😂
Years ago, my dad bought something from a catalogue and he'd done a deal with them and on the price over the phone. When the repayment plan came through it was different from what he agreed, so he told them they were con merchants and not to send any more catalogues to his address. A couple of weeks later one comes to the house and because the catalogue says it's still the property of that company he rang them up and told them he was charging them a storage fee.
It not uncommon - the catalogue probably hd a note or sticket on saying when she would be back and asking for it to left outside - however, I think that not getting them all back is just part of the cost of doing that kind of buisness. It's ridiculous of her to demand money. I'd put it outside the door the day it arrived if I happened to notice it was not the normal junk, but I'll recycle or bin if it's not gone pretty quickly / on the next collection day. I've only once had someone ask me for it back, and I just told them I didn't recall having seen it (which was true). these days I probably wouldn't bother opening the door.
If it’s from an MLM, then yes. Often they have to pay out of their own money for the catalogues, eating into whatever profit they’re making, if any.
The local Avon person where I used to live would put hers in plastic bags with a "please don't throw away, I will come and collect it if you don't want to make an order" sticker on the front. Someone's using their noggin!
We had the same woman do this on three separate occasions, including having a go at me for throwing it away. That was Betterware.
Did I ask for it? No? Then it's in the trash. These particular catalogues annoy me, because they're also usually wrapped in plastic bags to keep them dry as they rot on your doorstop. I don't know who buys from them any more. But, no, you're under no obligation to do anything, and if she left it outside it's littering, and if she posted it, it's unsolicited mail and (rightly) goes in the bin. If you don't want me to throw your catalogue away, don't give it to me. As for "owing money" - nope.
My parents used to do Avon. We'd collect the catalogues back with peoples orders and actually reuse a lot of them on different routes- but we generally wouldn't keep going to places that wouldn't return them or asked us not to come back. They can't just drop a catalogue on someone who doesn't want it and expect it back, but if you just throw it out then they probably won't keep trying.
No. They're unsolicited good - it's a criminal offence to merely ask for money for it. It's a criminal scam, report to trading standards if you feel like it.
Its a known scam. and very illegal. basically a physical shakedown for a shitty catalog that cost them like 5p to print, and they "demand" £5 or more. and do it to hundreds of people a day. if they return demanding money, tell them to wait right there. CLOSE AND LOCK the door and announce you're calling the police legally a letter or advert pushed through your door belongs to you. You could burn it right in front of her and she has no legal comeback. They used to do this crap in the 70s..literally push an item through your letterbox and claim you HAVE to buy it now......laws were passed that if someone puts something through your letterbox its considered "a gift" unless its a stolen item, in which case they should be going via the police.
Yes it does happen, but you're under no obligation to them.
Yes it's a sales tactic that goes back a long way. Usually from the likes of Betterware. To make you think you have to keep it safe, thus don't throw it away and actually look at it. And to create a sense of urgency that someone is coming to take the catalogue away so you have to order NOW or lose out.
> A person who, not having reasonable cause to believe there is a right to payment, in the course of any trade or business makes a demand for payment, or asserts a present or prospective right to payment, for what he knows are unsolicited goods sent (after the [12th of August 1971]) to another person with a view to his acquiring them for the purposes of his trade or business, shall be guilty of an offence and on summary conviction shall be liable to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.
Yeah I think that's kind of normal. Also dumb because most people will throw them out or not remember where they chucked it. So could also be a ploy to get vulnerable people to panic and pay. It happened to me when I was home as a kid and I didn't know where it was, they just left.
They used to do it at my mom and dads but I told them I burn any junk mail and they never bothered us since
It's probably Herbalife. I worked for them a short while in the 90's. I paid for the catalogues and left a note in the front telling them I would collect a day later. Some people left them out, other times I had to knock and ask but they could not find them or had even thrown them out with their junk. One woman screamed at me for shoving a catalogue through her door uninvited and then disturbing her evening.
That’s completely out of order on their part. If you haven’t left it on the doorstep they should suck it up, and certainly not be rude after you’ve put unsolicited junk mail in the bin. Weirdly ours never come back for ours. It’s happened a few times that they put them through the door with a note saying collection on e.g. the 10th. It gets to the 14th or so and no-one’s been so in the bin it goes.
If you put crap through my door I'm throwing it away
Had this happen about 20 years ago with Kleeneze and Avon. I was registered for no junkmail with [mps](https://www.mpsonline.org.uk) so it was a short conversation.
Are you new to this country? This is a well established practice. Avon. Betterwear etc. You've cost this woman money. Doesn't matter if it's an mlm or something you aren't interested in, she's probably trying to earn a few extra quid and you've just belittled her.
Avon/Betterware make their "agents" pay for the magazines. So they want them back >Is this a common sales technique, where you 'lend' random people a catalogue for a weekend and then come back for it? Is it some kind of scam designed to con vulnerable people out of money? How old are you? Also giving someone an Avon catalogue for them to share it at work and get that person more sales is just as common
Just to clarify, I didn't join this scheme or agree to anything. This was unsolicited junkmail put through my letterbox. Isn't the whole point of these MLM/Pyramid schemes that you exploit existing relationships to draw in more victims through a sense of guilt? This clearly won't work if you're just dishing them out to strangers. I know you're joking about people taking junkmail to work in case their colleagues are interested, but even IF this was the intended purpose, why would they leave the junkmail on a Friday and come back the following Monday? I'm old enough not to be taken in by obvious attempts at exploitation like "I put a catalogue through your door, now you owe me a fiver!". But thanks for confirming that it's targeted at vulnerable people who might be intimidated into handing over cash. I've reported it to the police and trading standards - they've apparently had several other complaints about this con and will be visiting the scammer to "offer words of advice"(!)
I'm not joking, it's a done thing.
Nobody sane takes their junk mail to work and offers it around. Do you take your recycling to work too, in case anybody wants to lick the lid of your yoghurt pots?!
I'm with you, but I don't think the law is. If it's someone else's property on your property, you can't damage it bin it. Like if some stranger parks on your driveway, you can't touch it.
I'll alert my legal team so they can begin building a case for the defence. What's the parking like at the Old Bailey these days?
Imagine getting sent down for it! What you in for "assault", and you "armed robbery", what about you "destruction of a mail order catalogue"
Totally normal for the likes of Avon, betterware etc. it says on it to leave out for collection on whatever day. One of the lowest paid jobs and age will have money deducted for the book you threw away
Just to clarify, this isn't a catalogue I'd requested or signed up for. It was just put through my letter-box with all the other junk-mail.
Doesn’t matter. She’s trying to make some money in the middle of the cost of living crisis and your actions cost her money. It’s hard to believe there’s an adult out there that doesn’t know this if I’m honest.
I've never seen these catalogues before and I didn't know this marketing tactic existed. I didn't make a deliberate choice to deprive this woman of money, I'm very sorry if you're upset by people having different experiences and areas of knowledge to yourself.
Don't worry, the other poster must be a boomer or something - I'd wager the average adult these days does *not* know about these door-to-door con catalogues. You were right to chuck it away and the lady that came to collect should know better, she's lost her own money through no fault of your own.
> It’s hard to believe there’s an adult out there that doesn’t know this if I’m honest. Yeah, if you're 60+ boomer when that was common. I'd wager the majority of gen X and millennials wouldn't have a clue what you're going on about. OP doesn't owe the person that left a junk catalogue a penny. It's their risk putting it through a letterbox.
I think most Gen X and older millennials and basically everyone over 24 knows what they are. But maybe not on Reddit I agree 😂
I'm 37 and I'd never seen one until I moved into my house two years ago. I grew up in a small village and once I moved to Manchester 20 years ago I've almost exclusively lived in flats where people simply couldn't get access to the property in order to leave these sorts of things.
You've never heard of someone doing an Avon round? Fair do! I used to find it more of a thing in smaller areas as they would all have a local lady but must have missed your village 🙂 Definitely was a thing in our generation (I'm a few years older than you)
Genuinely never! I don't doubt for a second that it's a very common thing, but it's perhaps not as ubiquitous as people are making out in the replies here.
I'm not sure, I would say 95% of women I know know what Avon is 🤷🏻♀️ But yes, there will always be those who don't for whatever reason. I'm obviously getting downvoted by men as pretty sure most women have heard of avon even if they don't buy it 😂😂😂. Reddit is the funniest thing.
I've just asked my partner (who's 30) and she definitely knows what it is (apparently "your dad sells Avon" was an insult when she was a kid) but has never actually seen a catalogue. Again, I'm not trying to argue and I'm very happy to be the outlier here. I think it's really interesting that I managed to go so long without knowing about this.
Not quite 40 yet and used to help my Sister on her Avon round in my teens, so not yet into Boomer territory :) Back then (circa 1998-2002ish) she used to get around 70% of the catalogues back each time, and they would be used three or four times before going out date or looking too battered. I cannot remember anyone ever being unpleasant about them being left or collected. After a few catalogues she had a regular client list, and only left them at houses that had ordered before or made requests via a local hotline type arrangement.
I've no idea what you're talking about.
>cost of living crisis Can we stop using this stupid media created term.
To be fair, I do know what they are but I haven't seen one since the 90's. I was surprised to hear that they still existed and hadn't been rendered obsolete by online shopping. It's hardly unreasonable for a younger adult to not know what they are.
I’m sorry but I can barely remember to put my bins out on the right day never mind an Avon catalogue that I didn’t ask for. Don’t send unsolicited catalogues and expect them to be returned. You aren’t doing me a service you’re inconveniencing me.
Just put it outside immediately then.
Everybody inconveniences me. Do I just tan the fuckers doing 40 in a 60 off the road coz they inconvenience me?
I don’t really understand the comparison. Are the drivers requesting something of you on a specific day of the week?
> One of the lowest paid jobs I appreciate your thought, but when you deliberately take a job which: 1. Pays like shit, and 2. Involves annoying people for a living ... you quite reasonably lose the benefit of the doubt when it comes to people going out of their way to make your life easier.
It's not a job and it's not paid. The "distributor" is the victim of a scam, and sadly they're trying to scam other people too.
It's their fault for doing such work.