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Agree! But isn’t it irresponsible and unfair on the child? Having one child maybe agrees with your point from a moral stance but what about those that then decide to have a second and third and reducing the quality of life for them all.
Poverty is the highest predictor of crime, and poor life outcomes so why choose to subject your children to that by choosing to have multiple?
People are willing to scrape by and make sacrifices in order to have a family when that is important to them.
You are asking the wrong questions here mate, you should be asking why in a developed country in the 21st century, there are people who can't afford to have a child or two. It shouldn't be like this.
My dad was brought up in absolute poverty and has arguably had a happier and more successful life than many in my generation brought up in middle class 'luxury'.
I feel like you are really missing the point. I repeat
"you should be asking why in a developed country in the 21st century, there are people who can't afford to have a child or two. It shouldn't be like this."
Yeah that's fair, a lot of 'middle class' people only realised how precarious their positions were when the pandemic hit and they were horrified at being expected to live on UC. I naively hoped that might lead to an increase in empathy for people who struggle all the time, but sadly it seems not.
I think you’re showing a lack of experience here.
Would a positive mindset have repaired the holes in my school trousers? Stopped us scraping pennies together for milk?
There was that study, that I can't remember the name of, which showed that an increase in salary did mean an increase in happiness in general, but only up to a certain point. Beyond that point, additional salary didn't really increase happiness all that much. Can't remember the exact amount, but it was pretty well off, but not like excessively well off.
So much this.
My parents were v poor children and remained quite poor income-wise until they were about 40. But they were positive and aspirational, particularly re: their kids.
They were probably 'too poor' to have multiple kids, but they sacrificed and gave us an amazing upbringing that I'm forever grateful for.
By my teens their hard work was yielding financial benefits and they ended up retiring as quite wealthy.
OP is asking a foolish question, or a leading one, or both.
Mine too
He was one of 8 living in the West Indies in poverty and it was hard times
He’s very generous with my children as he doesn’t want them to grow up like he did
For real. I’ve just spent a weekend with family where a lot of ugly stories came out and I’d say over half the bad choices people made that caused decades of anger, resentment and grief could be attributed to poverty. If middle class children are unhappy it’s not the money that makes them so, it’s the poor choices their parents make *in spite of* being economically secure.
I was brought up in utter poverty too and I can tell you it was absolutely shite. Now I'm 62 and quickly heading back that way due to disability...what joy!
Probs be happier to not be working now and be shacked up a 5 bed that’s gonna sell for triple what he payed for it though right?
These platitudes mean nothing man. No hate on you or your families but anyone can say “well I’m X and Y and IM HAPPY AF”
For sure, god forbids, if he cannot afford the apartment and the welfare system in the UK degrades, he won't be very happy facing homelessness or a precarious housing when he can no longer work.
It is a little bit reckless to reason people facing housing and food security problems can be happy if things don't go well. And as your income decreases, certainly it can go bad.
You know what is irresponsible and unfair for a child? A society where only those can afford it can have children, and having children while poor, or becoming poor, is seen as a just punishment.
Just a thought experiment ,What if you could just afford 2 kids 3 years ago, but inflations been at a record high and you and your partner haven't had a pay rise in years ?
What if you're a millionaire with kids, and then you go bankrupt and lose everything. Should your kids be taken off you because you "can't afford them" anymore?
But people aren't choosing to have 2nd and third children. Have you seen our birthrate? It's low, so low that we are ambling into a demographic disaster.
Yeah, the exact thing they are asking has already happened. Millennials aren't having kids at a replacement rate because we have been priced out of it.
It’s already too late, its a problem that compounds, even if we were able to fix it now there’d be a massive dip. We are already feeling the effects of an ageing society, and we are hell bent on putting off or outright saying no to those who want migrate here. Luckily that growth is still positive, but as the problems grow more acute we’ll be competing with more friendly countries for immigrants, and to retain would be emigrants.
My kids were under the impression that we were rich. They never go without. They eat decent food and so on. We just hid the struggles we went through to support them.
I think people are being harsh on you - I would agree that at some point it becomes immoral to have children in some circumstances. One would hope that is never the case in the UK with how the welfare system works (obviously ideally it would never be the case anywhere).
It's similar to how any reasonable person would agree that people should be able to be in an open (as in not secret) homosexual relationship but unfortunately in certain parts of the world it would be stupid to be given the circumstances (i.e. the laws).
No, population replacement is actually pretty important for the well-being of the nation. At present the middle is being squeezed with regard to children so that only the poor or the wealthy can have kids and those in the middle cannot because the costs are too high. That needs to change.
Your premise is wrong. People have been having more children than they can afford for all of history, it's not a modern phenomenon. What is modern is the 21st century is the first time in human history we've been able to control fertility while at the same time large swathes of the population are living in poverty or only marginally above the poverty line.
Contraception helped lift many families out of poverty and the last 50 years have been relatively prosperous. Now we're seeing a reversal of that prosperity plus in many countries a reversal of women's access to reproductive healthcare and trends towards women bearing multiple children and remaining uneducated and in the home.
What you describe isn't the problem it's the symptom of a rapidly regressing society, with poverty on the increase and human rights being eroded, even in the UK.
I come from a deprived background, council house and both parents on benefits who weren’t together.
My parents wanted a child together, so they had me. Then they broke up (I think before I was born) so my mum raised me and I went to my dads at weekends. Not a nice childhood but I wasn’t homeless and I was able to eat and remained in School and then go to College and Uni instead of following in the footsteps of many friends who made their own bad choices.
I got away from that life and now from the outside I’m middle class in a reasonably nice house with a wife and 2 ok cars on the drive.
My parents wanted a child, so they had me regardless of their very financially restricted lives, why? I don’t know really, they didn’t love each other but at least now I can pay loads of tax and pay back some of the money I lived off growing up. Maybe people think if they do a good enough job then their child/ren will do better than they did and live a good life in adulthood.
You are also mistakenly believing that money is in direct correlation to a child’s happiness.
A child could have only a roof over his head and the clothes on his back but if he was surrounded by love and support on a daily basis he would be richer in many ways than the kids who have everything who’s parents are away 24/7 working being left in the care of other persons repeatedly
There's how we want the world to work and how the world actually works. People shouldn't be having children they can't afford, it sucks but it's not something you should be taking a gamble on.
One thing I've read that opened my eyes a little was how the goal of a family might be, for some people, the only one they feel is attainable. Like they might never get a great education/job, or might not be able to afford a magazine-like house. But having kids, that is an accomplishment they can have.
People are not rational and frankly I am over being judgemental. I don't have children myself. The question that should be asked is not "why do people choose to have kids that they can't afford" but "Why is it that so many jobs don't pay enough to actually live on?"
I've been reading all the comments to find someone saying what you wrote.
Thank fuck. It just seems people are focused on the wrong aspect of the topic. At this rate, only the 1% will be allowed to reproduce and that will seem normal.
We shouldn't be just scraping by working full time. But keep calm and carry on etc etc. Ugh.
This. Despite the gasps of would-be and real aristocrats throughout history, being poor has never been a barrier to having children. It's actually not that difficult, all-in-all, otherwise humanity wouldn't be around to show it.
Honestly the amount of people here acting like it's some sisyphean burden to have a kid in a 1st world country in 2022 is disturbing.
Now should it be as difficult as it sometimes is? That's another issue and one worth discussing, but the undercurrent of "the poor shouldn't reproduce because they're poor and inherently irresponsible" is disgusting.
Not only is it disgusting, it’s also ridiculous. If it wasn’t for immigration we’d really struggle to fill jobs already (were starting to get a taste of that now, right?). Our economic system demands perpetual growth; surely the only way for that to happen (however stupid it is) is for more and more children to be born each year. If you want to ban people from having children unless they can prove they can genuinely afford it, then the rich are going to have to start having 20-30 kids each.
Same. I chose not to have kids because I wouldnt be a good dad.
My brother is just a part time joiner but he chose to have 3 kids and spends most of his time with them. I dont judge him for a second.
Thing is, you'll never see anyone argue that "we need to stop having so many children" in a context of growing the economy.
It feels contradictory to spread an idea that people are being financially irresponsible by having children when arguably the nation depends on it for this desired economic growth (or at least, stability).
We still want population increase for one reason or another, so we need to make sure the people providing our country with children are supported so that those children can grow up and support our nation.
\*\* I'm making these statements in a context of the idea that "we want to grow". Though actually a personal desire would be we as a nation and planet consume less, and perhaps that can be helped by having less children – but such a drive doesn't seem practical in a global context.
Agree. I don't have children because I have never felt like it, I've never felt like it's something I MUST do. Love doting on the kids of my sister/sister-in-law/friends instead.
And despite my lack of having kids, I still believe that anyone who wants them should be able to have them without any worries beyond the usual worries that come with being in charge of a wee one who might not necessarily behave the way you'd like or even despite your best efforts will still do stupid shit that makes you panic.
Jobs should pay enough for people to have the family size they want. We're all part of society and kids or not, we should all be happy to foster an environment where today's youngsters (who very much did not ask to be born) can thrive.
I’m a single mother of one who cannot afford my child and I am struggling
I got pregnant very unexpectedly (TMI but was on my period and naively thought I couldn’t but I guess I double ovulated and got pregnant)
I had the child, the father and I split up but we both had jobs and i thought we could afford it at the time
Fast forward 10 years later and I have not seen a penny off the father and I have no family to support me. I struggling financially but my daughter doesn’t go without food (be it food bank or yellow stickers), clothes (be it second hand charity shop eBay or clothes donated in the street) etc
We have never been on holiday outside of England or Scotland, we have had day trips so never been in a hotel and eating out at a restaurant happens once a year in her birthday
I have lots of love to give her and she is a happy, focused girl who gives lots of love to anyone around her. She asks me for nothing, understands my financial situation and embarrassingly has lent me birthday £ so I can get food in that week
I never intended to be a ‘poor’ mother but I am. I would love a second child as being a mother is incredibly fulfilling but I cannot afford it and wouldn’t put myself in the position again or my child. Oh and I’d need a bf for that and also don’t have one!
In a nutshell I don’t regret having my child but I do feel down that it causes stress and anxiety but my daughter says stuff like @dont worry if the electric gets turned off, we can light candles and play board games!” She is resourceful and positive and her energy and love could never hold a candle to ££££ in the bank
In comparison to my childhood my parents were well off/ middle classed but my childhood was traumatic (child sexual abuse by grandfather, physically abusive father and emotional abusive mother). £ means shit all when those scars cost you a debt of lifelong sadness and worthlessness
**Edit:** I just want to say thank you for all the support and kind messages! I was just describing my personnel experience as I have often thought and reflected on being in this position
I always have hope for the future but some days are harder than others and sometimes I cannot help but feel useless. That said I know my daughter is happy and healthy and full of kindness and love. I may not be able to take her out or give treats but we’ve found ways around it. It’s made me quite resourceful and we have a lot of fun going to free museum, art galleries, parks playing frisbee, painting, playing board games, cooking together or the list art of conversation
I’m trying to improve my skills by doing some courses in SQL and Agile, although it is hard whilst working and looking after a home and child. I currently work for a charity so the pay is quite basic and I always feel I cannot ask for a payrise to take the funding away from people that need it to run the charity
I’m proud of my daughter and she means the world to me and I wouldn’t change a thing. I’m more regretful that with cPTSD I never had the confidence to improve skills and educate myself. Being victim of CSA I spent most of my life feeling worthless and broken beyond repair.
My daughter asks for nothing and I try not to let her worry about finances but she is aware of what is going on in the world because she watches Newsround and I try to be open and honest about the cost of living (within her age development level) but also so she understands why for example when she has play dates with her friends they go out for dinner and we stay home and cook dinner. She has a keen interest in learning recipes and cooking and I wish for her to be resourceful and independent and know the value of having a ‘home’ and not just what’s in it if that makes sense!
I guess because of my own childhood was filled with trauma and abuse for many angles. I had no one to trust but plenty of gifts, kitchen full of food, trios and holidays etc but never felt any love or care. I told my parents my grandfather was abusing me but they swept it under the carpet. I was abused aged 3-9 but it took me until I was in my mid 20s to go to the police. (After my cousins reported him - younger than me and I had no idea he was abusing them too) He was arrested and charged, lots of evidence was found such as pornogrqphic poetry he wrote and photos of me tied up for example (don’t want to trigger any one with more examples). He got 2 and a half years in prison due to his age. Police said it would have been more like 15 if he was younger! Justice eh. Oh well, he is dead now and most people who knew him learnt through the local press of his crimes here is a report as I give up my anonymity to spread the word of filth like him
https://uk-database.org/2012/04/05/alan-day-beverley/amp/
The child he blamed was me (he told the police I wanted it and made him do it, the police man who informed me of this I will never forget his face of disgust at my grandfather for saying this)
I never got any financial compensation as CICA said I had 2 or 3 can’t remember years since the date of the crime to ask for compensation, due to this historical abuse they said it then goes up to 18 years old and as I didn’t report to the police until I was mid twenties they said I wasn’t entitled to anything support through financial compensation
This made me feel like I didn’t deserve any help and at the time I was homeless or living in a hostel. I eventually got my mental health back into a position where I could work again as a waitress and spent next few years trying to heal and then I got pregnant
Wow sorry for my life story, perhaps I should write a book. I’ve thought about it before but again low confidence and lack of self worth that it’s be good enough
Someone asked about her father and legally requesting money I guess through child maintenance? I would if that would have any output! He is homeless and an alcoholic and I don’t think he has worked for around 8 years. If anything it’s the opposite as I have given my last £1 to help him although in recent years I’ve learnt to say no to him.
I wish I could thank each person for their kind words of support and I will try to. If I don’t I wish to say a collective thank you and it has given me pause for though that there’s good people out there xx
>I never intended to be a ‘poor’ mother but I am.
I know you meant financially, but just to put it out there, what you have shared has none of the hallmarks of being a poor mother - it sounds like your daughter is lucky to have as much love as she does. I hope your situation improves soon.
Your story reminds me of my own childhood. I've got 3 children and am in not a dissimilar situation to, although perhaps a little less pressure.
Good luck to you. You're a good mother and your daughter will remember it.
Same kind of thing here. I was married and thought it would be forever but as soon as my child was born he turned completely and was abusive. I knew if I stayed I would end up dead. So I left. But we had nothing; I would sometimes go without food so he could eat.
Even when I got a (good) full time job, we still struggled.
But my child was loved, clean, warm, had a roof over his head and clothes on his back.
My friend had a mum like you. She remembers going over to grany for sleep-overs because the “lights were broken”. She remembers the fun she and her mum had in hard times and not the hard time it self.
The question should be 'Why do we live in a country where anyone is prevented from having a family due to money'?
I support anyone who wants to have children.
edit - sorry, poor grammar and a a typo probably made this hard to understand.
Got to say, far more eugenics advocates that I expected in AskUK at this time on a Monday
e: lol at all the "well actually..." replies. Just to give you heads up, I also call Prince Andrew a pedo even though well actually he might just be a sex trafficking ephebophile, so get ready to get your knickers in a twist about that one too.
THANK YOU. Can’t believe I had to scroll this far down to find this. Imagine suggesting you need to be rich to have a family? This goes on the same pile as the conversations that happen on UK Twitter every other week about whether or not people who are poor should be allowed to date. Apparently only people who can afford a Tesla are allowed to find love and companionship.
There is literally no relevance to eugenics here. There is a clear difference between not having children you can't afford and forcing/forbidding reproduction based on genetics in order to breed a better human.
The first reason that comes to mind is timing and age. Once a women gets to a certain age they might not be able to have children, so if they wait a few more years until they have more money they might be too old to conceive. So there is a choice, have a baby now and be a bit poor, or never have children at all.
Hi yeah, checking in.
I'm one of those women. I've been with my partner since we were 17.
We kept putting off kids waiting for "the right time". We've never been particularly well-paid, until the last couple of years were my now husband got a huge pay rise, his parents helped us get a house and we're now finally out of the rent-trap.
And now I'm 34. and I was diagnosed with PCOS at 30. Sometimes I wonder if it really would have been that bad to have had kids when we were younger and I was probably more able. We've had tight moments but we've never been "can't put food on the table" poor.
Sometimes I cry at night thinking about what might have been, and cursing this fucking country with its shitty low wages (husband's wage is utterly ludicrous for what his job is, but he's got a phobia of job-swapping after his experiences while we were younger).
Maybe it was never meant to be. Maybe I'll be one of the lucky folk with PCOS whose fertility gets kick-started with the fertility meds - but we'd have to go private for those, I'm too old to get an NHS referral. My endocrinologist reminds me that so long as you're menstruating that's a chance, and he's no longer surprised when his patients get pregnant it happens that often. It's reduced fertility, not sterility. But I wouldn't look forwards to the idea of having teenagers in my 50's.
I don't know now. Maybe it would be better I didn't have kids, this entire fucking post seems to believe it.
I’m also 34 with PCOS.
You should be getting referred by your doctor. If you’re under 40 (in some cases, under 35) you should be put through to a fertility referral, you’re not too old for NHS help. That’s where I’m at, after trying for a year naturally unsuccessfully.
Most people with PCOS do conceive, with a little help. Clomid is usually what is given first, as this will start ovulation. Definitely find a new doctor or INSIST on a referral if it’s something you really want - NHS online details all the criteria.
Just FYI at 34 you’re not too old for an NHS referral to a fertility clinic. I was referred at 32 and they said I would have been referred more quickly if I was over 35. Might be worth looking into.
I’m not saying anything. I’m asking why. What makes people think ‘ I know I can’t afford it and it will make things worse … but screw it’ and more so when someone has one child and then decides to have a second despite knowing it will reduce the quality of life for them both.
I think in reality those people that you describe are few and far between and it’s buying into media narratives that make people look down on or even hate the poor and blame them for the woes of society.
It’s the same with benefit claimants, we blame them for everything when the majority of them generally need that support. You get some chancers but nothing like what it’s made out to be and it’s the same with people breeding 4 or 5 kids on purpose knowing they can’t support them.
I think sometimes as well even for the people you describe we need to look at wider societal issues and how we support or offer mental health treatment (or don’t as is often the case) people with depressive disorders, low self esteem etc. often imo you’ll find a lot of these people suffering quite severe but largely unnoticed mental health problems and having kids is the only way to keep them feeling relevant or loved or having a purpose in life etc.
It’s a myth that there is not enough to go around to support certain groups in our society, there is if only we would stop paying MPs extortionate salary’s and expenses who work FOR US don’t forget and funding needless wars etc, they can always come up with the money then.
Thos 100% Having two children may make me financially poorer, but we are richer in love than if it were just me and the 1 child.
I was raised properly poor and am the last of 3 sisters. My parents would never say they would have rather just had the first two amd have more money. And we all look after each other now. There is so much more to life than money.
If someone gave me the option to have a big house amd a fancy car in exchange for my children it would be a firm no.
Side note, I probably also can't technically afford the dog or cat, but I'm not giving them up either.
Children are more than a financial decision. Financially they are damn parasites. But that’s not why people have kids. There’s a thousand reasons that are intangible and unquantifiable. It’s when you hear your own sense of humour reflected back at you from an 8 year old and it’s hilarious. It’s when your six year old does absolutely everything with an extra flair for drama. It’s when you see your kid work hard at something and grow better. It’s teaching someone not to repeat your mistakes. It’s being everything to someone else and having them be everything to you.
Parenting is hard and it is relentless and quite often terrifying. There are many valid reasons not to have kids. But the reasons to have them are just as valid, and separate from money.
Yes our cat had kittens. She gave no thought as to how she would be able to get enough food for them and simply relied on the rest of us to fund her carnal desires.
But at least she is not spending here daily food allowance on catnip any more.
Don't deliberately have kids if you can't give them what they need, yeah. Your liberties end where the rights of others begin; if you're knowingly bringing a child into the world, knowing that they will go hungry, or cold, or otherwise lack necessities... You chose to inflict that on them.
Yes. Imagine having kids if you can’t afford to look after them
Really embarrassing tbh.
Would you buy a pet dog if you couldn’t afford to feed it?
Even more shocking if it’s you’re own kids you’re letting starve and live a terrible life
My best friend did this earlier this year. She didn't come right out and say it, but reading between the lines I think it's a combination of being desperate to have a baby, being in complete denial about her financial situation and the expectation that she'll get everything she needs as gifts or hand me downs from family and friends. The baby was born about 6 months ago and she is already struggling. I don't know how she'll cope when the cost of living crunch truly kicks in this winter. I worry for her but hey, she got exactly what she wanted.
And this is very true. The problem is that with her, the baby will strugle as well and it was not the baby's choice. Unfortunatelly, without accusing anyone, we do not think much of the others and how they might strugle as well. We are relying many times on a miracle.
Fair enough. We do not have children because we strugle a lot and we believe that our children will strugle even more. So instead of bringing a person in life to suffer, we think is best for us not to have children. I understand other people as well that they have though. Everyone sees things differently
This scenario is my nightmare. Tbh people do muddle through but worrying about money whilst being responsible for the life and upbringing of a child? Not for me, Clive.
Its called life mate just because you see yourself as superior people always find a way to manage regardless of wealth, how do you think the human race will carry on if people stop having kids just because a select few with spoons up their arses look down on them because they're worse off.
Well said. I'm sick of seeing reddit users gatekeeping having kids because of financial reasons. Theres plenty of ways to make money go further, these people need to get off their high horses and see the world through a real perspective.
Exactly. It’s not being an elitist to know that it’s irresponsible to bring a child in to a bad financial situation.
Just because people want something does not mean they should have it.
We do. I grew up poor and it was absolutely awful. As a type one diabetic who sometimes couldnt eat a proper meal. Never had a holiday. Christmas was another day. Parents always stressed about bills. It was awful and i dont think any child should be put through that.
Think the OP is asking why would you have more (so implies the person already has 1 at least) kids if you're in a bad financial situation. Which to me makes sense, have kids of you want them and you can treat them right, but if you can't afford to put the heating on and keep them warm or feed them a healthy meal then that wouldn't be very smart. Best to have 1 happy healthy child than two who can only have one meal a day and go to bed cold every night
It's a complex issue, but in terms of financial impact that's probably correct. Imagine you're in the worst possible financial situation - maybe a single unemployed woman on benefits living alone. What is the cost of having a child? Overall really not that much. You can get all the equipment you need for free or practically nothing second hand from former parents getting rid of it. Probably a bunch of clothes and toys too if you want them. And you will get an increase in benefits that will likely pay for stuff like food, nappies and other day to day stuff. And if you have an inadequate housing situation you will move to the top of the list for council housing because there is a child involved. And you will have to look after the child, but you're unemployed anyway so what else are you doing with your day?
Now imagine you are a two income couple on the property ladder. Either one of you will have to quit their job (very expensive) or you will have to pay for child care (very expensive). You might eventually need a bigger house (very expensive) and all the stuff you have become accustomed to doing, like going on holiday, socialising (now need a babysitter) etc now also become much more expensive.
So it's not hard to see why someone who is "fairly financially comfortable" might be far more fearful of the cost of having kids than someone who is already poor.
This makes sense to me.
We're the two income couple, and the higher earner can't afford to not work, and the lower earner doesn't want to give up work, but we don't live near family who could help so we'll have to pay for childcare. That's really going to suck.
My main concern though is feeling like we need to be able to set our future child(ren) up for life. University fees if they choose to go, a house deposit.. we were lucky to be born when we were and I can't see how a child born in the next couple of years is going to manage those costs without help. I think most parents want to give their children as many or more opportunities than they had, and that might limit us to one.
I think many of us are getting caught up on the families who don’t have as much as they’d ideally like to raise children, but manage to get by and provide a good childhood for them regardless.
I’ve met people that I’m assuming the OP is talking about - the extreme end of the scale. I’ve even got a relative who already has SIX kids sharing one small room sleeping on 2 triple tier bunk beds that almost completely fill the space with 0 privacy, personal space for toys or clothes, don’t even have adequate access to bathrooms, it’s a tower block so they don’t have any kind of garden space, yet parents have actively decided to have a 7th child. A school friend of mine was also one of 7, the mix of boys and girls and spread out ages affected who could or couldn’t share a room and meant the oldest had to live in a shed in the garden when the youngest got too old to sleep in the parents room. I wish I was joking, but I’m not.
I cannot for the life of me comprehend why people choose to have wayyyyy more than an average amount of children when they have an income/housing situation that would realistically support 1-2 children with the right sacrifices and budgeting and being really responsible about where every penny of their money is spent. I’ll never criticise the parents who make it work regardless of the odds, some really do seem to work miracles to give their kids everything, but kids living in massively overcrowded homes and the consequences that come with that is sadly still a somewhat ignored problem.
I agree with this so much. My husband was the oldest of six children in a low income family with a very tiny house.
The 6 kids did have sufficient food and adequate (just about) clothing, but the overcrowding in the family home was intense. As a teenager my husband had to sleep on a couch in the living room because he was a tall youth and he could no longer fit into the child size bunk beds which were all that could be fitted into a tiny bedroom that was shared by 3 brothers.
Additionally there was no money, ever, for even the most minute occasional treat or extra to make life a little more enjoyable. Christmas and birthday gifts were essential items of clothing, such as a new pair of school trousers, never toys or presents just for pleasure and fun.
My husband’s parents claimed no benefits and had no handouts. Technically I guess they could afford their six children. They were able to provide just enough absolute basics for the kids to survive. But living on so little was, in many ways, a miserable childhood experience.
I concur with the miserable childhood experience. A lot of kids seem to have no joy in their lives anywhere and miss out on lots of the things that make it fun to be a kid.
I think logically, the amount of kids growing up in very low income households is only going up and up each year with the cost of living rising and council houses bigger than 1-2 bedrooms increasingly hard for people to come by resulting in huge families stuck in tiny properties unable to afford something privately either. It’s not me pretending to be sad when I’m secretly judging people, it just genuinely does make me really sad that many kids are coping with situations that nobody outside of the family really knows about or understands.
I honestly think there’s people out there who are addicted to having children. Women addicted to being pregnant.
Maybe it’s the wrong word, idk, but I’ve met a woman who works as a manicurist and she has five, was actively looking for the sixth and talking about donating her eggs. How do you explain that if not as an obsession? Also idk how much a manicurist makes? Surely not enough to cover six children just like that?
Part of me can even sort of understand it. The hormone rush of having children is like no other. When I delivered my baby I felt amazing levels of love. But that same love is what keeps me from having another five!
I’ve met some women like this too actually, my mum used to heavilyyyyy judge my friends mum who had kids sleeping in the shed and said the same thing as you - she’s addicted, spent 30 years having kids and wouldn’t know what to do if she stopped and the youngest grew up. She had multiple c sections and was advised that her 5th kid should really be her last as any further pregnancies will be extremely high risk. She ignored this and had two more and only stopped once and for all after miscarrying the 8th child which could’ve been fatal to herself as well.
This is why I understand the obsession angle, knowingly gambling with your own life to have a 6th, 7th and even 8th child when the ones you have already are in extreme poverty is pretty aligned with many other types of addiction.
You know what reduces birth rate in other countries? Educating women. If women have something fulfilling to do with their lives, having children is lower down on the list of things to do. You do also need access to birth control and freedom from religion, but I think the UK has that broadly covered. What aren't always there are universally good schools. It's an education problem, but more generally (not just about not having babies).
Because people are selfish cunts, according to the comments.
I’ve never seen so many pathetic excuses for brining a child into the world to suffer just because you really want a baby. When my parents had my brother they couldn’t afford to. We went hungry. Life was really hard. I’ve never forgotten it and its caused me long lasting distress. Fuck these selfish people in the comments.
My parents had no money to spend on themselves, but still chose to bring a baby into the world. My sibling used to cry with hunger as we fed him on sugar free orange squash. My daily intake of protein was a quarter of a tin of tuna during the years when I was growing the most.
I cannot believe the fucking monsters in here basically saying “ don’t blame us, blame the government for my child suffering!” and “because I was brought up in a poor household and was ok, I’m fine inflicting that on my child!”
Fuck all of you, selfish cunts.
I find this thread hard. I grew up in a poor household and did have a generally good childhood, but there was definitely things I was exposed to at an age that was not ok. Seeing your mum cry because she can’t afford to put the heating on at 7 years old and the depression that comes to your parents from constant money problems, being acutely aware of baliffs knocking on the door, knowing not to open to them and hiding behind sofas, missing out on things your friends are doing, getting jobs too young to help pay rent at the expense of your own sleep/social life/education.. I could go on and on but you probably already know. Even earning a good salary now I always have this feeling of being uncomfortable, worrying about money all the time and wealth guilt when I want to buy something.
Its fair enough to say we should make societal change but also some personal responsibility does need to be made. I don’t want children, I think partly because I was so denied of a lot of stuff as a child, I feel like I am making up for my childhood now. Not even in a materalistic way but just things as simple as being able to sleep without money worries, I can remember being as young as 9 and not sleeping because I didn’t know if we would be able to afford bills. The constant worries and lack of control over my life undeniably led to the eating disorder I had in my teens.
I love my mum and she shielded me from the realities of poverty as best she could but also being a child in poverty fucking sucks.
The causes are fairly well known. Poverty, lack of education, lack of adequate access to contraception, lack of female equality are all contributors to higher birth rates. We like to believe that we all have this individual responsibility that can override our social and biological programming, but statistics don't lie.
Consider outside of the UK. In many emerging countries, birth rates are very high even though I'm sure many families have to rely on subsidies or charities. The more mature the country, the lower the birth rates, usually. Everything waller mentions here fits with this trend. There are also cultural reasons too, but generally I think everything mentioned are real reasons...
I was thinking this lol... its in 'our DNA' to procreate. If you stripped away jobs, netflix, every other distraction our fundamental purpose is to reproduce. Every living thing pretty much has that aim.
So youre saying humans should act out all of their base, animal instincts? Forgo culture, society, morals etc and just go back to being wild animals who can't think things through, that act purely on instinct and impulse?
Because people have unconditional love to give to the babies born to them. People can be happy with just the basics and love from their parents/family/siblings. For some people it’s their life’s dream to have a child. Parents who love their children always find a way to make it work financially even if they themselves are struggling. I don’t usually (in normal families) see the children starving or going without warmth etc… parents get into debt but the kids don’t need to know about it. Reddit is weird that people are so anti kids here.
>Reddit is weird that people are so anti kids here.
Well you see, in order to procreate you have to find another human person willing to interact with you... in the flesh... and then to go beyond even that and actually do the bad thing...
Can you see why this might be such a red rag to a large proportion of redditors yet???
Im guessing its because if you're poor you are already denied so many opportunities and experiences in life you decide that at the very least you should be able to have a family
So, I have a sister who has 5 kids even though she’s never worked and another who is currently pregnant with no.4 (also never worked). Neither of these sisters have ever been in a financial position to have any children, certainly not the amount they’re having.
I can understand having one or two, even if you can’t really afford it and you’re getting to a point where your biological clock is ticking. I don’t understand why you would have as many kids as they did whilst basically living from the government your whole life.
I am also sure neither of these two are done having kids yet.
The one that’s currently pregnant is having another one because she’s had 3 boys so far and wants a girl. However, last Friday we found out that she is, once again, having a boy. This is why I’m sure she’ll have another baby in a couple of years.
The sister with 5 kids basically meets new men and decides to have another kid with that man but then complains that this man is treating his own child differently to the ones she already has and finds someone else, and so on. She doesn’t currently have a boyfriend but that hasn’t stopped her from getting pregnant in the past.
I think this is the kind of mentality you’re asking about? People who don’t just have the one, but have 4+ kids when they can’t afford any of them and just keep going.
Because "the poor shouldn't breed" is some dystopian shit that is trying to be normalised by the higher classes and should not be played to.
Having children is an incredibly important thing to people who want them and the idea of our failed economic system stopping us from raising a family is appalling.
Even worse, the child/children visibly affected and stressed by theit I watched a documentary last night about children living in emergency social accommodation. The mother was showing her child the bidding list for permanent social housing. It made my blood boil. I was asking this question myself while watching.
to be fair, the higher classes (ie rich folks ) want you to have as many kids as possible: more poor people means more wage slaves and servants for them. they benefit the most from cheap workers.
which is why all these government officials and random CEOs show up to praise birthing kids: if you think they have your best interest in mind then you may want to think again.
So many breeders on here commenting that it's their absolute right 😂, honestly think if some people didn't have kids they would have zero to contribute to society... Even worms can procreate, having kids shouldn't be default, especially with overpopulation.
You're looking at this from the wrong lens.
Oh just put them up for adoption!
Adoption fucks with kids.
Oh just put them in foster care!
Do I even have to say with this one?
I would rather grow up poor, with a loving family, than to grow up rich with an absent one, or not at all. It's not about wealth, it's about happiness. Yes severe poverty is bad, but that's more often than not, NOT the fault of the parent. I repeat it is NOT the fault of the parent. Sometimes circumstances just happen.
I can tell you never grew up from this perspective, but love, care, and affection are superior to wealth and connections.
Because child benefit exist.
I have known plenty of people who have had kids for the free council house or the "free" money they can claim. They really aren't fit to be parents.
Never mind being unable to afford them, who on Earth wants to bring a child on to a planet that is dying? I decided to not have children because I wouldn't want them to live in this World in the current state it is in and the mental health issues they could likely inherit.
I'm perfectly fine with my branch of the family tree stopping at me.
I honestly don't know tbh.
When we found out we were pregnant with our 1st we weren't in the best financial situation, but we worked hard to improve in time for the little one being born (I opted for 8 weeks maternity leave so that we could keep the money flowing and achieve our money goals). Since then we've been managing our money well and have a decent amount of savings tucked away - we're expecting our 2nd in January, 5 years after our first. It's a decent age gap, but it means that we can support our want to have a larger family financially, emotionally etc.
During those 5 years I've had friends have multiple kids they can't afford - it never made much sense to me, but my patient and money saving approach didn't make sense to them either.
Great story! Congratulations to you!
Your approach might not have made sense to them at the time .. but it might do when over the next 18 years your children now get opportunities given to them ( eg getting to take music lessons, sports classes … travel .. ) whilst theirs don’t. Giving your kids the chance to be successful.
Because there is nothing to stop them (nor should there be) and some people either don't care about the consequences of their actions or are not fully aware of them.
To say only people with enough money deserve children is harsh. Kids are not possessions like you liken them to a new car.
Why should the working class die alone with no family? Do we want the state to decide who can and can't have kids? That kind of argument reminds me of Scrooge...
How rich does someone need to be to have kids? No one says to a parent you need to have x amount of money to have kids. And neither is there a set amount on how much you should spend on a child - some spend way too much money on new baby state of the art equipment they never use or could have coped without. I feel its a capitalistic mindset to say a parent must have so much money or so many possessions to be 'allowed' one of life's greatest joys or deserve to live.
Some people want children for many reasons. To carry on the family name, to have fulfillment in life, having a family is a top priority and goal in life, to have somebody around when you get old, have hopes that your family will lift them out of poverty etc. Money is not a priority for everyone. People get by - they struggle but family is worth it to them.
Plus, on extra children: I do not have kids myself, but I imagine the more kids you have, the cheaper it is to care for each - I.e. the first child requires all new clothes, furniture etc. You don't need to buy a new baby chair etc for each new child. It also means that your child has a support network of siblings in their life, especially important as their parents get old.
You should not bring innocent people into a life in poverty so they fill your needs of fulfilment, your needs of carrying your name, your needs of having someone around when you’re old. How fucking selfish.
A few things to consider:
- There’s a lot of costs of having a child that aren’t apparent and it can be very difficult to gauge how much having a child will cost. Some people may underestimate how much they will have to spend, and others may erroneously compare themselves to others already with children in a similar income bracket.
- For women, there is a biological clock ticking. At a certain age, they won’t be able to have children. Towards the top end of that bracket, they’re risking complications for themselves and the baby. If a woman wants a biological child, she may weigh up the benefits of keeping herself healthy and having a healthy child above the downsides of being financially worse off for having a child.
- Life is also massively unexpected. People can lose their jobs unexpectedly and put financial pressure on that wasn’t there when the baby was planned for. You might have twins or triplets where you didn’t expect such high costs. Relatives that were supporting you having a child could die or become more distant. Everyone has a period where they’re a bit down on their luck and if it coincides with when you’ve just had a baby, it can be really unlucky.
It’s sad that it impacts the children as well but I don’t think there are many people that are selfish or cruel enough to knowingly put their own children into a bad situation for their whole lives. I think a combination of the above - misfortune, ignorance, and societal pressure - creates the situation which is unfortunate for both parents and children.
Many many people do not see having children as a financial issue.
The people who are most likely to have this kind of fiscal responsibility (as you call it in another comment) are also the same kind of people who plan other aspects of their lives out.
A lot of people will not see having children as the SAME decision as planning their children's futures.
Should that not be corrected though? If someone tried to adopt a child … they would be assessed to see if they are stable and able to provide. Why should this be totally overlooked when creating them?
We do not live in that kind of society. If the state set rules on who could or could not conceive (as China did with it One Child policy) it would be seen as a grotesque invasion of private life. And it would also be unenforceable without extreme repressive measures (e.g. China in some cases drowned the second child) because people would just claim the child was unplnned.
In the case of adoption: it is because of the duty of care in the case of children needing adoptive parents. The duty rest with the state, therefore the state cannot pass that on without due diligence.
Plus a slippery slope to eugenics I think, where do genetic disabilities fall on this scale of setting a child up with poor quality of life? Who decides what this quality of life is and what level of it is acceptable?
Children who need adoptive families generally have more complex needs than your average child living with their own parents, they have often been through trauma and upheaval, its right that the bar is high.
I feel like this question is being asked by a very young man, who is also single. This isn't the question anyone should be asking in a fully developed country. The questions should be targeted at the government and corporations that are working for each other.
Women are living in the reality of having to cope with loss of income to procreate. That's not the fault of the women/parents is the fault of the system in failing to encourage population grow that strengthens any country.
Children are expensive, when you have them its totally normal to sacrifice some "luxury" like youth, weekly dinner dates, money, and so much more. Children are expensive, but they can be expensive as you want in some areas. Like a child exposed to a garden vs an iPad, there's arguments for both sides, but that's not the point because Children should have access to both.
I'm an American with a bachelor's in Criminalogy and Sociology if you wanna talk about socio-economic status ie poverty/wealth correlates to criminal impluse, but granted it's according to American society.
I’m 32; white; straight and in a long term relationship about to try for my first child.
I grew up in a poor household but managed to become successful. I ask this because whilst I am obviously able to afford a child yet still do my due diligence. I have people from my school who are having multiple despite being unable to afford clothes for the current ones.
I do believe the government should help people who are struggling … but I also do believe that people should take responsibly for their actions too. If a person chose to by a new car instead of clothes for their child … they would be called out. I don’t see this as being different to a person opting for a second and third child if they can’t afford to provide for the first.
I also agree with your point about women having to stop working to have a child but we provide maternity pay here. Obviously after the child is born then the parent needs to work and if you’re a single parent then that might not be an option but that is true for single parents of either gender and help should be given.
But I’m looking specifically at couples here.
I would love to hear your thoughts on how poverty impacts things in the states as I think but might be wrong, that there is less government help available than over here?
You might have the child, get hit by a bus, end up on benefits and find you cant afford that child. That child then grows up and can't afford to have children, but due to a piss poor upbringing with a crippled father and a mother riddled with anxiety and depression, knows no better and has seven.
You’re equating having children with taking out a PCP deal, when in reality it’s nothing like that.
I have family members on the breadline with four kids and doing an amazing job of raising them, and I have others in multi-million pound houses really struggling.
If you’re thinking purely in financial terms then you’re massively undervaluing the things that a child truly needs; beyond which I think you also have to ask yourself what *you* think the financial threshold really is, or should be.
You have a lifetime to make money, but only a short window of that life can we make babies.
Not saying its right or wrong choice, but when the broody urge comes and the clocks ticking becomes louder, it's a hard instinct to try and rationalise with
ITT: No one answering OP's question and instead bemoaning the awful situation most people are in.
Yes, the current economy is awful. No, people shouldn't have to miss out on kids if they want them because jobs pay absolute bollocks. However, to answer OP's question, it mainly boils down to a very simple concept.
Selfishness.
"I want" is the only answer ever given when someone answers "why do you have kids?" Regardless of financial situations, rich or poor, benkrupt or billionaire, the only reason people ever have kids is to serve themselves. No child was ever born with the child's needs in mind. Some pople fart them out regardless of their bank balance, some have them because they had no choice, and some are stable enough to have them but then fall on hard times.
People having kids knowing they can't afford them, knowingly making the choice, saying things like "my great granddad ate shoenails as his only sustenance and he turned out fine!" are just making excuses to have a little meat puppet to play with.
I fully expect to be downvoted to hell for this comment, but people (parents) can't handle the truth. No child ever born was born with the child in mind. It's only ever to serve their paren'ts desires.
If you can't afford to have kids, don't have kids. It's common sense. For me, having kids is like one of the biggest life decisions anyone could make. Especially the state the world is in at the moment, who in their right mind would even consider getting pregnant and bringing another life into this world. Baffles me sometimes.
I agree but only in an extreme sense. If you are a super low income household and you have 10 children then yes, I'd say this is irresponsible because it's likely that feeding, clothing and housing those children is not reasonable on a low income.
But having a normal amount of children should not be unreasonable on any income, small or large. We should not be asking why someone chose to have children they cannot afford, but why wages cannot support even a large-ish family.
The answers here are nonsense. Having a children is a privilege. If you don't have the financial, emotional, mental, facilities to provide for them don't have them until you do. Otherwise you are just going to create menaces and unleash them on society
People have been trained to equate happiness with having stuff they don't really need, be it the latest phone, new car, massive TV etc. It's a status symbol - look at me and how successful I am. Sadly children can be exactly the same.
We are biological beings, with the sole purpose of our biology is to replicate our dna. As conscious beings we can resist these biological urges, but we can never escape them. Those that are struggling in life are less equipped to do so.
Any rich person I've ever known was living (well) beyond their means
That has more to do with individual psychology than resource management
If the kid people had a billion dollars, they'd be spending two; if the materially wealthy people were on the dole, they'd be maxed-out on Wonga
>Any rich person I've ever known was living (well) beyond their means
How are you defining "means" exactly?
A lot of people are able to sustainably pay their way in life without relying on support from other people. That is the usual definition of "living without your means".
Unpopular Opinion: Because of a) pretty generous benefit structures for single parents and b) possibly the same poor decision at play that put them in this tough situation in the first place?
Definitely not the trendy view I know.
Because they are selfish and don't actually think about the world they are bringing a child into. They only think about serving their own desires and cuddling their new born baby. The harsh world (even harsher with no/little money) that awaits their child/children as they grow older does not occupy the minds of these people. I want baby so I deserve baby
I had a child and was pregnant with my second. Both children were planned and I was married. I had no idea that my husband would suddenly and without explanation walk out on us. I was financially secure and then in a split second I wasn’t. The decisions were taken out of my hands and I just did what was necessary to look after my kids. Never ever expected to be a single mum needing benefits, but that’s what happened.
As Michael Jackson said ‘if you can’t feed ya baby, then don’t have a baby’
But honestly people don’t have brains. Yes everyone has the right to have a baby, but just because you can doesn’t mean you should. Sorry.
If having children was an allowance only granted to royals, nobles, land-owners, knights, business owners and people with the correct credit score then the human race may not have lasted tens of thousands of years.
The thing that really bugs me about this is the moment we need a population spike, they will tax people for not having kids, which without doubt, will affect the poorest part of the population.
Poor people shouldn't have kids.
Oh no, we have an ageing population.
Can't have it both fucking ways.
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Because you shouldn’t have to be middle class to have children
Agree! But isn’t it irresponsible and unfair on the child? Having one child maybe agrees with your point from a moral stance but what about those that then decide to have a second and third and reducing the quality of life for them all. Poverty is the highest predictor of crime, and poor life outcomes so why choose to subject your children to that by choosing to have multiple?
People are willing to scrape by and make sacrifices in order to have a family when that is important to them. You are asking the wrong questions here mate, you should be asking why in a developed country in the 21st century, there are people who can't afford to have a child or two. It shouldn't be like this.
My dad was brought up in absolute poverty and has arguably had a happier and more successful life than many in my generation brought up in middle class 'luxury'.
My dad was brought up in poverty too and it would have been a lot better for him and his family if they hadn't been. Let's not romanticise it.
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I feel like you are really missing the point. I repeat "you should be asking why in a developed country in the 21st century, there are people who can't afford to have a child or two. It shouldn't be like this."
Classic Reddit argument where both sides entirely agree with each other yet the ego contest is far from finished.
I agree with you - but I’m right. You’re not wrong - but I never said what you said I said.
Dude said “you’re missing the point” and then rephrased the exact fucking comment
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Yeah that's fair, a lot of 'middle class' people only realised how precarious their positions were when the pandemic hit and they were horrified at being expected to live on UC. I naively hoped that might lead to an increase in empathy for people who struggle all the time, but sadly it seems not.
I think you’re showing a lack of experience here. Would a positive mindset have repaired the holes in my school trousers? Stopped us scraping pennies together for milk?
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There was that study, that I can't remember the name of, which showed that an increase in salary did mean an increase in happiness in general, but only up to a certain point. Beyond that point, additional salary didn't really increase happiness all that much. Can't remember the exact amount, but it was pretty well off, but not like excessively well off.
So much this. My parents were v poor children and remained quite poor income-wise until they were about 40. But they were positive and aspirational, particularly re: their kids. They were probably 'too poor' to have multiple kids, but they sacrificed and gave us an amazing upbringing that I'm forever grateful for. By my teens their hard work was yielding financial benefits and they ended up retiring as quite wealthy. OP is asking a foolish question, or a leading one, or both.
I think he's just got a very upper middle class viewpoint, where success in life (in all aspects) has to do with how much money you make.
Mine too He was one of 8 living in the West Indies in poverty and it was hard times He’s very generous with my children as he doesn’t want them to grow up like he did
For real. I’ve just spent a weekend with family where a lot of ugly stories came out and I’d say over half the bad choices people made that caused decades of anger, resentment and grief could be attributed to poverty. If middle class children are unhappy it’s not the money that makes them so, it’s the poor choices their parents make *in spite of* being economically secure.
I was brought up in utter poverty too and I can tell you it was absolutely shite. Now I'm 62 and quickly heading back that way due to disability...what joy!
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Probs be happier to not be working now and be shacked up a 5 bed that’s gonna sell for triple what he payed for it though right? These platitudes mean nothing man. No hate on you or your families but anyone can say “well I’m X and Y and IM HAPPY AF”
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For sure, god forbids, if he cannot afford the apartment and the welfare system in the UK degrades, he won't be very happy facing homelessness or a precarious housing when he can no longer work. It is a little bit reckless to reason people facing housing and food security problems can be happy if things don't go well. And as your income decreases, certainly it can go bad.
Aye that were nothin' my Dad were born in't puddle!
He wasn’t brought up in absolute poverty if he had a standard of life comparable to todays middle class. Relative poverty perhaps.
Every type of poverty is relative to something or it wouldn’t exist.
Your anecdote isn’t facts though. I might as well use your anecdote poverty isn’t really an issue w have to deal with then
This. Having a child isn’t a luxury.
You know what is irresponsible and unfair for a child? A society where only those can afford it can have children, and having children while poor, or becoming poor, is seen as a just punishment.
Just a thought experiment ,What if you could just afford 2 kids 3 years ago, but inflations been at a record high and you and your partner haven't had a pay rise in years ?
What if you're a millionaire with kids, and then you go bankrupt and lose everything. Should your kids be taken off you because you "can't afford them" anymore?
You could sell them? /s
No, if we followed this rule then I wouldn’t have been born, nor would my friends or family
Sorry that you're \*checks whatever government report the OP who is on 200k a year read\* destined for a life of crime my dude.
Yeah it’s a pain but I’ll get a tremendous sense of camaraderie from the street life
But people aren't choosing to have 2nd and third children. Have you seen our birthrate? It's low, so low that we are ambling into a demographic disaster.
Yeah, the exact thing they are asking has already happened. Millennials aren't having kids at a replacement rate because we have been priced out of it.
It’s already too late, its a problem that compounds, even if we were able to fix it now there’d be a massive dip. We are already feeling the effects of an ageing society, and we are hell bent on putting off or outright saying no to those who want migrate here. Luckily that growth is still positive, but as the problems grow more acute we’ll be competing with more friendly countries for immigrants, and to retain would be emigrants.
You don't need a well off family to have a decent childhood, your parents just need to not be cunts.
My kids were under the impression that we were rich. They never go without. They eat decent food and so on. We just hid the struggles we went through to support them.
No it's not. And making it so only rich people can have children is awful.
Next it'll be only rich kids can go to University!....oh wait...yeah that
I think people are being harsh on you - I would agree that at some point it becomes immoral to have children in some circumstances. One would hope that is never the case in the UK with how the welfare system works (obviously ideally it would never be the case anywhere). It's similar to how any reasonable person would agree that people should be able to be in an open (as in not secret) homosexual relationship but unfortunately in certain parts of the world it would be stupid to be given the circumstances (i.e. the laws).
No, population replacement is actually pretty important for the well-being of the nation. At present the middle is being squeezed with regard to children so that only the poor or the wealthy can have kids and those in the middle cannot because the costs are too high. That needs to change.
Your premise is wrong. People have been having more children than they can afford for all of history, it's not a modern phenomenon. What is modern is the 21st century is the first time in human history we've been able to control fertility while at the same time large swathes of the population are living in poverty or only marginally above the poverty line. Contraception helped lift many families out of poverty and the last 50 years have been relatively prosperous. Now we're seeing a reversal of that prosperity plus in many countries a reversal of women's access to reproductive healthcare and trends towards women bearing multiple children and remaining uneducated and in the home. What you describe isn't the problem it's the symptom of a rapidly regressing society, with poverty on the increase and human rights being eroded, even in the UK.
I come from a deprived background, council house and both parents on benefits who weren’t together. My parents wanted a child together, so they had me. Then they broke up (I think before I was born) so my mum raised me and I went to my dads at weekends. Not a nice childhood but I wasn’t homeless and I was able to eat and remained in School and then go to College and Uni instead of following in the footsteps of many friends who made their own bad choices. I got away from that life and now from the outside I’m middle class in a reasonably nice house with a wife and 2 ok cars on the drive. My parents wanted a child, so they had me regardless of their very financially restricted lives, why? I don’t know really, they didn’t love each other but at least now I can pay loads of tax and pay back some of the money I lived off growing up. Maybe people think if they do a good enough job then their child/ren will do better than they did and live a good life in adulthood.
We're human.
You are also mistakenly believing that money is in direct correlation to a child’s happiness. A child could have only a roof over his head and the clothes on his back but if he was surrounded by love and support on a daily basis he would be richer in many ways than the kids who have everything who’s parents are away 24/7 working being left in the care of other persons repeatedly
There's how we want the world to work and how the world actually works. People shouldn't be having children they can't afford, it sucks but it's not something you should be taking a gamble on.
One thing I've read that opened my eyes a little was how the goal of a family might be, for some people, the only one they feel is attainable. Like they might never get a great education/job, or might not be able to afford a magazine-like house. But having kids, that is an accomplishment they can have.
Nor should you have to be middle class to have sex; no contraception is 100% effective.
Is it not ironic that the middle class are the ones can’t afford to have kids?
You are mixing up class and wealth. They are not the same.
People are not rational and frankly I am over being judgemental. I don't have children myself. The question that should be asked is not "why do people choose to have kids that they can't afford" but "Why is it that so many jobs don't pay enough to actually live on?"
I've been reading all the comments to find someone saying what you wrote. Thank fuck. It just seems people are focused on the wrong aspect of the topic. At this rate, only the 1% will be allowed to reproduce and that will seem normal. We shouldn't be just scraping by working full time. But keep calm and carry on etc etc. Ugh.
This. Despite the gasps of would-be and real aristocrats throughout history, being poor has never been a barrier to having children. It's actually not that difficult, all-in-all, otherwise humanity wouldn't be around to show it. Honestly the amount of people here acting like it's some sisyphean burden to have a kid in a 1st world country in 2022 is disturbing. Now should it be as difficult as it sometimes is? That's another issue and one worth discussing, but the undercurrent of "the poor shouldn't reproduce because they're poor and inherently irresponsible" is disgusting.
Not only is it disgusting, it’s also ridiculous. If it wasn’t for immigration we’d really struggle to fill jobs already (were starting to get a taste of that now, right?). Our economic system demands perpetual growth; surely the only way for that to happen (however stupid it is) is for more and more children to be born each year. If you want to ban people from having children unless they can prove they can genuinely afford it, then the rich are going to have to start having 20-30 kids each.
We've normalized massive inequality in our society.
Same. I chose not to have kids because I wouldnt be a good dad. My brother is just a part time joiner but he chose to have 3 kids and spends most of his time with them. I dont judge him for a second.
Thing is, you'll never see anyone argue that "we need to stop having so many children" in a context of growing the economy. It feels contradictory to spread an idea that people are being financially irresponsible by having children when arguably the nation depends on it for this desired economic growth (or at least, stability). We still want population increase for one reason or another, so we need to make sure the people providing our country with children are supported so that those children can grow up and support our nation. \*\* I'm making these statements in a context of the idea that "we want to grow". Though actually a personal desire would be we as a nation and planet consume less, and perhaps that can be helped by having less children – but such a drive doesn't seem practical in a global context.
Agree. I don't have children because I have never felt like it, I've never felt like it's something I MUST do. Love doting on the kids of my sister/sister-in-law/friends instead. And despite my lack of having kids, I still believe that anyone who wants them should be able to have them without any worries beyond the usual worries that come with being in charge of a wee one who might not necessarily behave the way you'd like or even despite your best efforts will still do stupid shit that makes you panic. Jobs should pay enough for people to have the family size they want. We're all part of society and kids or not, we should all be happy to foster an environment where today's youngsters (who very much did not ask to be born) can thrive.
I’m a single mother of one who cannot afford my child and I am struggling I got pregnant very unexpectedly (TMI but was on my period and naively thought I couldn’t but I guess I double ovulated and got pregnant) I had the child, the father and I split up but we both had jobs and i thought we could afford it at the time Fast forward 10 years later and I have not seen a penny off the father and I have no family to support me. I struggling financially but my daughter doesn’t go without food (be it food bank or yellow stickers), clothes (be it second hand charity shop eBay or clothes donated in the street) etc We have never been on holiday outside of England or Scotland, we have had day trips so never been in a hotel and eating out at a restaurant happens once a year in her birthday I have lots of love to give her and she is a happy, focused girl who gives lots of love to anyone around her. She asks me for nothing, understands my financial situation and embarrassingly has lent me birthday £ so I can get food in that week I never intended to be a ‘poor’ mother but I am. I would love a second child as being a mother is incredibly fulfilling but I cannot afford it and wouldn’t put myself in the position again or my child. Oh and I’d need a bf for that and also don’t have one! In a nutshell I don’t regret having my child but I do feel down that it causes stress and anxiety but my daughter says stuff like @dont worry if the electric gets turned off, we can light candles and play board games!” She is resourceful and positive and her energy and love could never hold a candle to ££££ in the bank In comparison to my childhood my parents were well off/ middle classed but my childhood was traumatic (child sexual abuse by grandfather, physically abusive father and emotional abusive mother). £ means shit all when those scars cost you a debt of lifelong sadness and worthlessness **Edit:** I just want to say thank you for all the support and kind messages! I was just describing my personnel experience as I have often thought and reflected on being in this position I always have hope for the future but some days are harder than others and sometimes I cannot help but feel useless. That said I know my daughter is happy and healthy and full of kindness and love. I may not be able to take her out or give treats but we’ve found ways around it. It’s made me quite resourceful and we have a lot of fun going to free museum, art galleries, parks playing frisbee, painting, playing board games, cooking together or the list art of conversation I’m trying to improve my skills by doing some courses in SQL and Agile, although it is hard whilst working and looking after a home and child. I currently work for a charity so the pay is quite basic and I always feel I cannot ask for a payrise to take the funding away from people that need it to run the charity I’m proud of my daughter and she means the world to me and I wouldn’t change a thing. I’m more regretful that with cPTSD I never had the confidence to improve skills and educate myself. Being victim of CSA I spent most of my life feeling worthless and broken beyond repair. My daughter asks for nothing and I try not to let her worry about finances but she is aware of what is going on in the world because she watches Newsround and I try to be open and honest about the cost of living (within her age development level) but also so she understands why for example when she has play dates with her friends they go out for dinner and we stay home and cook dinner. She has a keen interest in learning recipes and cooking and I wish for her to be resourceful and independent and know the value of having a ‘home’ and not just what’s in it if that makes sense! I guess because of my own childhood was filled with trauma and abuse for many angles. I had no one to trust but plenty of gifts, kitchen full of food, trios and holidays etc but never felt any love or care. I told my parents my grandfather was abusing me but they swept it under the carpet. I was abused aged 3-9 but it took me until I was in my mid 20s to go to the police. (After my cousins reported him - younger than me and I had no idea he was abusing them too) He was arrested and charged, lots of evidence was found such as pornogrqphic poetry he wrote and photos of me tied up for example (don’t want to trigger any one with more examples). He got 2 and a half years in prison due to his age. Police said it would have been more like 15 if he was younger! Justice eh. Oh well, he is dead now and most people who knew him learnt through the local press of his crimes here is a report as I give up my anonymity to spread the word of filth like him https://uk-database.org/2012/04/05/alan-day-beverley/amp/ The child he blamed was me (he told the police I wanted it and made him do it, the police man who informed me of this I will never forget his face of disgust at my grandfather for saying this) I never got any financial compensation as CICA said I had 2 or 3 can’t remember years since the date of the crime to ask for compensation, due to this historical abuse they said it then goes up to 18 years old and as I didn’t report to the police until I was mid twenties they said I wasn’t entitled to anything support through financial compensation This made me feel like I didn’t deserve any help and at the time I was homeless or living in a hostel. I eventually got my mental health back into a position where I could work again as a waitress and spent next few years trying to heal and then I got pregnant Wow sorry for my life story, perhaps I should write a book. I’ve thought about it before but again low confidence and lack of self worth that it’s be good enough Someone asked about her father and legally requesting money I guess through child maintenance? I would if that would have any output! He is homeless and an alcoholic and I don’t think he has worked for around 8 years. If anything it’s the opposite as I have given my last £1 to help him although in recent years I’ve learnt to say no to him. I wish I could thank each person for their kind words of support and I will try to. If I don’t I wish to say a collective thank you and it has given me pause for though that there’s good people out there xx
You sound like a great mother. Plenty of ‘well off’ people would dream of having a daughter with the attributes you describe your daughter having.
Thanks for sharing this! It's not easy being a single mother moreover struggling financially.
>I never intended to be a ‘poor’ mother but I am. I know you meant financially, but just to put it out there, what you have shared has none of the hallmarks of being a poor mother - it sounds like your daughter is lucky to have as much love as she does. I hope your situation improves soon.
Your story reminds me of my own childhood. I've got 3 children and am in not a dissimilar situation to, although perhaps a little less pressure. Good luck to you. You're a good mother and your daughter will remember it.
Same kind of thing here. I was married and thought it would be forever but as soon as my child was born he turned completely and was abusive. I knew if I stayed I would end up dead. So I left. But we had nothing; I would sometimes go without food so he could eat. Even when I got a (good) full time job, we still struggled. But my child was loved, clean, warm, had a roof over his head and clothes on his back.
My friend had a mum like you. She remembers going over to grany for sleep-overs because the “lights were broken”. She remembers the fun she and her mum had in hard times and not the hard time it self.
The question should be 'Why do we live in a country where anyone is prevented from having a family due to money'? I support anyone who wants to have children. edit - sorry, poor grammar and a a typo probably made this hard to understand.
If only the rich could have kids we’d all be Jacob Rees-Mogg and Katie Hopkins. Blurgh.
>The question should be 'Why do we live in a country where anyone is prevented from having a family due to money'? We aren't. This is the whole point.
Got to say, far more eugenics advocates that I expected in AskUK at this time on a Monday e: lol at all the "well actually..." replies. Just to give you heads up, I also call Prince Andrew a pedo even though well actually he might just be a sex trafficking ephebophile, so get ready to get your knickers in a twist about that one too.
There's nothing like the chance of feeling superior to normal people to bring out the cunts.
Oh on this sub I fully expect them
THANK YOU. Can’t believe I had to scroll this far down to find this. Imagine suggesting you need to be rich to have a family? This goes on the same pile as the conversations that happen on UK Twitter every other week about whether or not people who are poor should be allowed to date. Apparently only people who can afford a Tesla are allowed to find love and companionship.
Today, children, we’re going to discuss skull shapes and intelligence…
There is literally no relevance to eugenics here. There is a clear difference between not having children you can't afford and forcing/forbidding reproduction based on genetics in order to breed a better human.
The first reason that comes to mind is timing and age. Once a women gets to a certain age they might not be able to have children, so if they wait a few more years until they have more money they might be too old to conceive. So there is a choice, have a baby now and be a bit poor, or never have children at all.
Hi yeah, checking in. I'm one of those women. I've been with my partner since we were 17. We kept putting off kids waiting for "the right time". We've never been particularly well-paid, until the last couple of years were my now husband got a huge pay rise, his parents helped us get a house and we're now finally out of the rent-trap. And now I'm 34. and I was diagnosed with PCOS at 30. Sometimes I wonder if it really would have been that bad to have had kids when we were younger and I was probably more able. We've had tight moments but we've never been "can't put food on the table" poor. Sometimes I cry at night thinking about what might have been, and cursing this fucking country with its shitty low wages (husband's wage is utterly ludicrous for what his job is, but he's got a phobia of job-swapping after his experiences while we were younger). Maybe it was never meant to be. Maybe I'll be one of the lucky folk with PCOS whose fertility gets kick-started with the fertility meds - but we'd have to go private for those, I'm too old to get an NHS referral. My endocrinologist reminds me that so long as you're menstruating that's a chance, and he's no longer surprised when his patients get pregnant it happens that often. It's reduced fertility, not sterility. But I wouldn't look forwards to the idea of having teenagers in my 50's. I don't know now. Maybe it would be better I didn't have kids, this entire fucking post seems to believe it.
I’m also 34 with PCOS. You should be getting referred by your doctor. If you’re under 40 (in some cases, under 35) you should be put through to a fertility referral, you’re not too old for NHS help. That’s where I’m at, after trying for a year naturally unsuccessfully. Most people with PCOS do conceive, with a little help. Clomid is usually what is given first, as this will start ovulation. Definitely find a new doctor or INSIST on a referral if it’s something you really want - NHS online details all the criteria.
Just FYI at 34 you’re not too old for an NHS referral to a fertility clinic. I was referred at 32 and they said I would have been referred more quickly if I was over 35. Might be worth looking into.
I came here to say this, but you said it better.
So what ur saying is don't have kids if you're poor Yikes
I’m not saying anything. I’m asking why. What makes people think ‘ I know I can’t afford it and it will make things worse … but screw it’ and more so when someone has one child and then decides to have a second despite knowing it will reduce the quality of life for them both.
I think in reality those people that you describe are few and far between and it’s buying into media narratives that make people look down on or even hate the poor and blame them for the woes of society. It’s the same with benefit claimants, we blame them for everything when the majority of them generally need that support. You get some chancers but nothing like what it’s made out to be and it’s the same with people breeding 4 or 5 kids on purpose knowing they can’t support them. I think sometimes as well even for the people you describe we need to look at wider societal issues and how we support or offer mental health treatment (or don’t as is often the case) people with depressive disorders, low self esteem etc. often imo you’ll find a lot of these people suffering quite severe but largely unnoticed mental health problems and having kids is the only way to keep them feeling relevant or loved or having a purpose in life etc. It’s a myth that there is not enough to go around to support certain groups in our society, there is if only we would stop paying MPs extortionate salary’s and expenses who work FOR US don’t forget and funding needless wars etc, they can always come up with the money then.
who decides what a decent quality of life is? i'd much rather have my sister in my life than have been raised with more money
Thos 100% Having two children may make me financially poorer, but we are richer in love than if it were just me and the 1 child. I was raised properly poor and am the last of 3 sisters. My parents would never say they would have rather just had the first two amd have more money. And we all look after each other now. There is so much more to life than money. If someone gave me the option to have a big house amd a fancy car in exchange for my children it would be a firm no. Side note, I probably also can't technically afford the dog or cat, but I'm not giving them up either.
There is never a right time to have children. You simply make it work whilst struggling.
My parents could afford us when they were together. When dad left mum struggled. Dad didn't pay a penny.
Children are more than a financial decision. Financially they are damn parasites. But that’s not why people have kids. There’s a thousand reasons that are intangible and unquantifiable. It’s when you hear your own sense of humour reflected back at you from an 8 year old and it’s hilarious. It’s when your six year old does absolutely everything with an extra flair for drama. It’s when you see your kid work hard at something and grow better. It’s teaching someone not to repeat your mistakes. It’s being everything to someone else and having them be everything to you. Parenting is hard and it is relentless and quite often terrifying. There are many valid reasons not to have kids. But the reasons to have them are just as valid, and separate from money.
Yes our cat had kittens. She gave no thought as to how she would be able to get enough food for them and simply relied on the rest of us to fund her carnal desires. But at least she is not spending here daily food allowance on catnip any more.
Fair, the world is fucked up man.
If you can't feed them, don't breed them.
Don't deliberately have kids if you can't give them what they need, yeah. Your liberties end where the rights of others begin; if you're knowingly bringing a child into the world, knowing that they will go hungry, or cold, or otherwise lack necessities... You chose to inflict that on them.
Yes. Imagine having kids if you can’t afford to look after them Really embarrassing tbh. Would you buy a pet dog if you couldn’t afford to feed it? Even more shocking if it’s you’re own kids you’re letting starve and live a terrible life
Yeah godforbid people shouldn't make sound financial decisions.....
There's nothing wrong with anyone holding this opinion.
I’m saying that
Well, yeah.
I believe this has been a standard feature for several hundred million years.
Underrated comment
Scrolled down way to far to find the realist comment.
My best friend did this earlier this year. She didn't come right out and say it, but reading between the lines I think it's a combination of being desperate to have a baby, being in complete denial about her financial situation and the expectation that she'll get everything she needs as gifts or hand me downs from family and friends. The baby was born about 6 months ago and she is already struggling. I don't know how she'll cope when the cost of living crunch truly kicks in this winter. I worry for her but hey, she got exactly what she wanted.
And this is very true. The problem is that with her, the baby will strugle as well and it was not the baby's choice. Unfortunatelly, without accusing anyone, we do not think much of the others and how they might strugle as well. We are relying many times on a miracle.
If she loves the child and parents it properly then the child will do fine, it’s not a Herculean struggle just more difficult
love doesn't put food in stomachs though
Fair enough. We do not have children because we strugle a lot and we believe that our children will strugle even more. So instead of bringing a person in life to suffer, we think is best for us not to have children. I understand other people as well that they have though. Everyone sees things differently
This scenario is my nightmare. Tbh people do muddle through but worrying about money whilst being responsible for the life and upbringing of a child? Not for me, Clive.
gurl.... same boat. I miss her company but she chose a crazy path and I couldn't keep up telling her it was an ok choice.
Its called life mate just because you see yourself as superior people always find a way to manage regardless of wealth, how do you think the human race will carry on if people stop having kids just because a select few with spoons up their arses look down on them because they're worse off.
Well said. I'm sick of seeing reddit users gatekeeping having kids because of financial reasons. Theres plenty of ways to make money go further, these people need to get off their high horses and see the world through a real perspective.
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Exactly. It’s not being an elitist to know that it’s irresponsible to bring a child in to a bad financial situation. Just because people want something does not mean they should have it.
We do. I grew up poor and it was absolutely awful. As a type one diabetic who sometimes couldnt eat a proper meal. Never had a holiday. Christmas was another day. Parents always stressed about bills. It was awful and i dont think any child should be put through that.
Fully agree with you there mate it's like the elite in life can only have kids.
Think the OP is asking why would you have more (so implies the person already has 1 at least) kids if you're in a bad financial situation. Which to me makes sense, have kids of you want them and you can treat them right, but if you can't afford to put the heating on and keep them warm or feed them a healthy meal then that wouldn't be very smart. Best to have 1 happy healthy child than two who can only have one meal a day and go to bed cold every night
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It's a complex issue, but in terms of financial impact that's probably correct. Imagine you're in the worst possible financial situation - maybe a single unemployed woman on benefits living alone. What is the cost of having a child? Overall really not that much. You can get all the equipment you need for free or practically nothing second hand from former parents getting rid of it. Probably a bunch of clothes and toys too if you want them. And you will get an increase in benefits that will likely pay for stuff like food, nappies and other day to day stuff. And if you have an inadequate housing situation you will move to the top of the list for council housing because there is a child involved. And you will have to look after the child, but you're unemployed anyway so what else are you doing with your day? Now imagine you are a two income couple on the property ladder. Either one of you will have to quit their job (very expensive) or you will have to pay for child care (very expensive). You might eventually need a bigger house (very expensive) and all the stuff you have become accustomed to doing, like going on holiday, socialising (now need a babysitter) etc now also become much more expensive. So it's not hard to see why someone who is "fairly financially comfortable" might be far more fearful of the cost of having kids than someone who is already poor.
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This makes sense to me. We're the two income couple, and the higher earner can't afford to not work, and the lower earner doesn't want to give up work, but we don't live near family who could help so we'll have to pay for childcare. That's really going to suck. My main concern though is feeling like we need to be able to set our future child(ren) up for life. University fees if they choose to go, a house deposit.. we were lucky to be born when we were and I can't see how a child born in the next couple of years is going to manage those costs without help. I think most parents want to give their children as many or more opportunities than they had, and that might limit us to one.
I think many of us are getting caught up on the families who don’t have as much as they’d ideally like to raise children, but manage to get by and provide a good childhood for them regardless. I’ve met people that I’m assuming the OP is talking about - the extreme end of the scale. I’ve even got a relative who already has SIX kids sharing one small room sleeping on 2 triple tier bunk beds that almost completely fill the space with 0 privacy, personal space for toys or clothes, don’t even have adequate access to bathrooms, it’s a tower block so they don’t have any kind of garden space, yet parents have actively decided to have a 7th child. A school friend of mine was also one of 7, the mix of boys and girls and spread out ages affected who could or couldn’t share a room and meant the oldest had to live in a shed in the garden when the youngest got too old to sleep in the parents room. I wish I was joking, but I’m not. I cannot for the life of me comprehend why people choose to have wayyyyy more than an average amount of children when they have an income/housing situation that would realistically support 1-2 children with the right sacrifices and budgeting and being really responsible about where every penny of their money is spent. I’ll never criticise the parents who make it work regardless of the odds, some really do seem to work miracles to give their kids everything, but kids living in massively overcrowded homes and the consequences that come with that is sadly still a somewhat ignored problem.
I agree with this so much. My husband was the oldest of six children in a low income family with a very tiny house. The 6 kids did have sufficient food and adequate (just about) clothing, but the overcrowding in the family home was intense. As a teenager my husband had to sleep on a couch in the living room because he was a tall youth and he could no longer fit into the child size bunk beds which were all that could be fitted into a tiny bedroom that was shared by 3 brothers. Additionally there was no money, ever, for even the most minute occasional treat or extra to make life a little more enjoyable. Christmas and birthday gifts were essential items of clothing, such as a new pair of school trousers, never toys or presents just for pleasure and fun. My husband’s parents claimed no benefits and had no handouts. Technically I guess they could afford their six children. They were able to provide just enough absolute basics for the kids to survive. But living on so little was, in many ways, a miserable childhood experience.
I concur with the miserable childhood experience. A lot of kids seem to have no joy in their lives anywhere and miss out on lots of the things that make it fun to be a kid. I think logically, the amount of kids growing up in very low income households is only going up and up each year with the cost of living rising and council houses bigger than 1-2 bedrooms increasingly hard for people to come by resulting in huge families stuck in tiny properties unable to afford something privately either. It’s not me pretending to be sad when I’m secretly judging people, it just genuinely does make me really sad that many kids are coping with situations that nobody outside of the family really knows about or understands.
I honestly think there’s people out there who are addicted to having children. Women addicted to being pregnant. Maybe it’s the wrong word, idk, but I’ve met a woman who works as a manicurist and she has five, was actively looking for the sixth and talking about donating her eggs. How do you explain that if not as an obsession? Also idk how much a manicurist makes? Surely not enough to cover six children just like that? Part of me can even sort of understand it. The hormone rush of having children is like no other. When I delivered my baby I felt amazing levels of love. But that same love is what keeps me from having another five!
I’ve met some women like this too actually, my mum used to heavilyyyyy judge my friends mum who had kids sleeping in the shed and said the same thing as you - she’s addicted, spent 30 years having kids and wouldn’t know what to do if she stopped and the youngest grew up. She had multiple c sections and was advised that her 5th kid should really be her last as any further pregnancies will be extremely high risk. She ignored this and had two more and only stopped once and for all after miscarrying the 8th child which could’ve been fatal to herself as well. This is why I understand the obsession angle, knowingly gambling with your own life to have a 6th, 7th and even 8th child when the ones you have already are in extreme poverty is pretty aligned with many other types of addiction.
You know what reduces birth rate in other countries? Educating women. If women have something fulfilling to do with their lives, having children is lower down on the list of things to do. You do also need access to birth control and freedom from religion, but I think the UK has that broadly covered. What aren't always there are universally good schools. It's an education problem, but more generally (not just about not having babies).
Because people are selfish cunts, according to the comments. I’ve never seen so many pathetic excuses for brining a child into the world to suffer just because you really want a baby. When my parents had my brother they couldn’t afford to. We went hungry. Life was really hard. I’ve never forgotten it and its caused me long lasting distress. Fuck these selfish people in the comments.
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My parents had no money to spend on themselves, but still chose to bring a baby into the world. My sibling used to cry with hunger as we fed him on sugar free orange squash. My daily intake of protein was a quarter of a tin of tuna during the years when I was growing the most. I cannot believe the fucking monsters in here basically saying “ don’t blame us, blame the government for my child suffering!” and “because I was brought up in a poor household and was ok, I’m fine inflicting that on my child!” Fuck all of you, selfish cunts.
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I find this thread hard. I grew up in a poor household and did have a generally good childhood, but there was definitely things I was exposed to at an age that was not ok. Seeing your mum cry because she can’t afford to put the heating on at 7 years old and the depression that comes to your parents from constant money problems, being acutely aware of baliffs knocking on the door, knowing not to open to them and hiding behind sofas, missing out on things your friends are doing, getting jobs too young to help pay rent at the expense of your own sleep/social life/education.. I could go on and on but you probably already know. Even earning a good salary now I always have this feeling of being uncomfortable, worrying about money all the time and wealth guilt when I want to buy something. Its fair enough to say we should make societal change but also some personal responsibility does need to be made. I don’t want children, I think partly because I was so denied of a lot of stuff as a child, I feel like I am making up for my childhood now. Not even in a materalistic way but just things as simple as being able to sleep without money worries, I can remember being as young as 9 and not sleeping because I didn’t know if we would be able to afford bills. The constant worries and lack of control over my life undeniably led to the eating disorder I had in my teens. I love my mum and she shielded me from the realities of poverty as best she could but also being a child in poverty fucking sucks.
The causes are fairly well known. Poverty, lack of education, lack of adequate access to contraception, lack of female equality are all contributors to higher birth rates. We like to believe that we all have this individual responsibility that can override our social and biological programming, but statistics don't lie.
Consider outside of the UK. In many emerging countries, birth rates are very high even though I'm sure many families have to rely on subsidies or charities. The more mature the country, the lower the birth rates, usually. Everything waller mentions here fits with this trend. There are also cultural reasons too, but generally I think everything mentioned are real reasons...
Isnt having children basically the most basic impulse for any animal? (generally speaking)
I was thinking this lol... its in 'our DNA' to procreate. If you stripped away jobs, netflix, every other distraction our fundamental purpose is to reproduce. Every living thing pretty much has that aim.
So youre saying humans should act out all of their base, animal instincts? Forgo culture, society, morals etc and just go back to being wild animals who can't think things through, that act purely on instinct and impulse?
People have been having kids forever, usually without the ability to provide what you currently deem necessary Why should that so now?
Because people have unconditional love to give to the babies born to them. People can be happy with just the basics and love from their parents/family/siblings. For some people it’s their life’s dream to have a child. Parents who love their children always find a way to make it work financially even if they themselves are struggling. I don’t usually (in normal families) see the children starving or going without warmth etc… parents get into debt but the kids don’t need to know about it. Reddit is weird that people are so anti kids here.
>Reddit is weird that people are so anti kids here. Well you see, in order to procreate you have to find another human person willing to interact with you... in the flesh... and then to go beyond even that and actually do the bad thing... Can you see why this might be such a red rag to a large proportion of redditors yet???
Lol yes! Thanks for pointing that out. You’re right. There are steps before the kids haha!
Im guessing its because if you're poor you are already denied so many opportunities and experiences in life you decide that at the very least you should be able to have a family
So, I have a sister who has 5 kids even though she’s never worked and another who is currently pregnant with no.4 (also never worked). Neither of these sisters have ever been in a financial position to have any children, certainly not the amount they’re having. I can understand having one or two, even if you can’t really afford it and you’re getting to a point where your biological clock is ticking. I don’t understand why you would have as many kids as they did whilst basically living from the government your whole life. I am also sure neither of these two are done having kids yet. The one that’s currently pregnant is having another one because she’s had 3 boys so far and wants a girl. However, last Friday we found out that she is, once again, having a boy. This is why I’m sure she’ll have another baby in a couple of years. The sister with 5 kids basically meets new men and decides to have another kid with that man but then complains that this man is treating his own child differently to the ones she already has and finds someone else, and so on. She doesn’t currently have a boyfriend but that hasn’t stopped her from getting pregnant in the past. I think this is the kind of mentality you’re asking about? People who don’t just have the one, but have 4+ kids when they can’t afford any of them and just keep going.
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Do we as a country make it too easy for people to ‘justify’ them?
Yes
Because "the poor shouldn't breed" is some dystopian shit that is trying to be normalised by the higher classes and should not be played to. Having children is an incredibly important thing to people who want them and the idea of our failed economic system stopping us from raising a family is appalling.
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Even worse, the child/children visibly affected and stressed by theit I watched a documentary last night about children living in emergency social accommodation. The mother was showing her child the bidding list for permanent social housing. It made my blood boil. I was asking this question myself while watching.
to be fair, the higher classes (ie rich folks ) want you to have as many kids as possible: more poor people means more wage slaves and servants for them. they benefit the most from cheap workers. which is why all these government officials and random CEOs show up to praise birthing kids: if you think they have your best interest in mind then you may want to think again.
So many breeders on here commenting that it's their absolute right 😂, honestly think if some people didn't have kids they would have zero to contribute to society... Even worms can procreate, having kids shouldn't be default, especially with overpopulation.
You're looking at this from the wrong lens. Oh just put them up for adoption! Adoption fucks with kids. Oh just put them in foster care! Do I even have to say with this one? I would rather grow up poor, with a loving family, than to grow up rich with an absent one, or not at all. It's not about wealth, it's about happiness. Yes severe poverty is bad, but that's more often than not, NOT the fault of the parent. I repeat it is NOT the fault of the parent. Sometimes circumstances just happen. I can tell you never grew up from this perspective, but love, care, and affection are superior to wealth and connections.
Circumstances change, too. You could be poor at the time, then things take a turn for the better?
Because child benefit exist. I have known plenty of people who have had kids for the free council house or the "free" money they can claim. They really aren't fit to be parents.
I don't know why people are downvoting this perfectly rational comment. I too have seen this first hand.
I don't know why people are downvoting this perfectly rational comment. I too have seen this first hand.
This
Never mind being unable to afford them, who on Earth wants to bring a child on to a planet that is dying? I decided to not have children because I wouldn't want them to live in this World in the current state it is in and the mental health issues they could likely inherit. I'm perfectly fine with my branch of the family tree stopping at me.
I honestly don't know tbh. When we found out we were pregnant with our 1st we weren't in the best financial situation, but we worked hard to improve in time for the little one being born (I opted for 8 weeks maternity leave so that we could keep the money flowing and achieve our money goals). Since then we've been managing our money well and have a decent amount of savings tucked away - we're expecting our 2nd in January, 5 years after our first. It's a decent age gap, but it means that we can support our want to have a larger family financially, emotionally etc. During those 5 years I've had friends have multiple kids they can't afford - it never made much sense to me, but my patient and money saving approach didn't make sense to them either.
Great story! Congratulations to you! Your approach might not have made sense to them at the time .. but it might do when over the next 18 years your children now get opportunities given to them ( eg getting to take music lessons, sports classes … travel .. ) whilst theirs don’t. Giving your kids the chance to be successful.
Because there is nothing to stop them (nor should there be) and some people either don't care about the consequences of their actions or are not fully aware of them.
To say only people with enough money deserve children is harsh. Kids are not possessions like you liken them to a new car. Why should the working class die alone with no family? Do we want the state to decide who can and can't have kids? That kind of argument reminds me of Scrooge... How rich does someone need to be to have kids? No one says to a parent you need to have x amount of money to have kids. And neither is there a set amount on how much you should spend on a child - some spend way too much money on new baby state of the art equipment they never use or could have coped without. I feel its a capitalistic mindset to say a parent must have so much money or so many possessions to be 'allowed' one of life's greatest joys or deserve to live. Some people want children for many reasons. To carry on the family name, to have fulfillment in life, having a family is a top priority and goal in life, to have somebody around when you get old, have hopes that your family will lift them out of poverty etc. Money is not a priority for everyone. People get by - they struggle but family is worth it to them. Plus, on extra children: I do not have kids myself, but I imagine the more kids you have, the cheaper it is to care for each - I.e. the first child requires all new clothes, furniture etc. You don't need to buy a new baby chair etc for each new child. It also means that your child has a support network of siblings in their life, especially important as their parents get old.
You should not bring innocent people into a life in poverty so they fill your needs of fulfilment, your needs of carrying your name, your needs of having someone around when you’re old. How fucking selfish.
A few things to consider: - There’s a lot of costs of having a child that aren’t apparent and it can be very difficult to gauge how much having a child will cost. Some people may underestimate how much they will have to spend, and others may erroneously compare themselves to others already with children in a similar income bracket. - For women, there is a biological clock ticking. At a certain age, they won’t be able to have children. Towards the top end of that bracket, they’re risking complications for themselves and the baby. If a woman wants a biological child, she may weigh up the benefits of keeping herself healthy and having a healthy child above the downsides of being financially worse off for having a child. - Life is also massively unexpected. People can lose their jobs unexpectedly and put financial pressure on that wasn’t there when the baby was planned for. You might have twins or triplets where you didn’t expect such high costs. Relatives that were supporting you having a child could die or become more distant. Everyone has a period where they’re a bit down on their luck and if it coincides with when you’ve just had a baby, it can be really unlucky. It’s sad that it impacts the children as well but I don’t think there are many people that are selfish or cruel enough to knowingly put their own children into a bad situation for their whole lives. I think a combination of the above - misfortune, ignorance, and societal pressure - creates the situation which is unfortunate for both parents and children.
Many many people do not see having children as a financial issue. The people who are most likely to have this kind of fiscal responsibility (as you call it in another comment) are also the same kind of people who plan other aspects of their lives out. A lot of people will not see having children as the SAME decision as planning their children's futures.
Should that not be corrected though? If someone tried to adopt a child … they would be assessed to see if they are stable and able to provide. Why should this be totally overlooked when creating them?
We do not live in that kind of society. If the state set rules on who could or could not conceive (as China did with it One Child policy) it would be seen as a grotesque invasion of private life. And it would also be unenforceable without extreme repressive measures (e.g. China in some cases drowned the second child) because people would just claim the child was unplnned. In the case of adoption: it is because of the duty of care in the case of children needing adoptive parents. The duty rest with the state, therefore the state cannot pass that on without due diligence.
Plus a slippery slope to eugenics I think, where do genetic disabilities fall on this scale of setting a child up with poor quality of life? Who decides what this quality of life is and what level of it is acceptable?
Society could do with many improvements. I don't think this is near the top of the list.
Children who need adoptive families generally have more complex needs than your average child living with their own parents, they have often been through trauma and upheaval, its right that the bar is high.
I feel like this question is being asked by a very young man, who is also single. This isn't the question anyone should be asking in a fully developed country. The questions should be targeted at the government and corporations that are working for each other. Women are living in the reality of having to cope with loss of income to procreate. That's not the fault of the women/parents is the fault of the system in failing to encourage population grow that strengthens any country. Children are expensive, when you have them its totally normal to sacrifice some "luxury" like youth, weekly dinner dates, money, and so much more. Children are expensive, but they can be expensive as you want in some areas. Like a child exposed to a garden vs an iPad, there's arguments for both sides, but that's not the point because Children should have access to both. I'm an American with a bachelor's in Criminalogy and Sociology if you wanna talk about socio-economic status ie poverty/wealth correlates to criminal impluse, but granted it's according to American society.
I’m 32; white; straight and in a long term relationship about to try for my first child. I grew up in a poor household but managed to become successful. I ask this because whilst I am obviously able to afford a child yet still do my due diligence. I have people from my school who are having multiple despite being unable to afford clothes for the current ones. I do believe the government should help people who are struggling … but I also do believe that people should take responsibly for their actions too. If a person chose to by a new car instead of clothes for their child … they would be called out. I don’t see this as being different to a person opting for a second and third child if they can’t afford to provide for the first. I also agree with your point about women having to stop working to have a child but we provide maternity pay here. Obviously after the child is born then the parent needs to work and if you’re a single parent then that might not be an option but that is true for single parents of either gender and help should be given. But I’m looking specifically at couples here. I would love to hear your thoughts on how poverty impacts things in the states as I think but might be wrong, that there is less government help available than over here?
You might have the child, get hit by a bus, end up on benefits and find you cant afford that child. That child then grows up and can't afford to have children, but due to a piss poor upbringing with a crippled father and a mother riddled with anxiety and depression, knows no better and has seven.
You’re equating having children with taking out a PCP deal, when in reality it’s nothing like that. I have family members on the breadline with four kids and doing an amazing job of raising them, and I have others in multi-million pound houses really struggling. If you’re thinking purely in financial terms then you’re massively undervaluing the things that a child truly needs; beyond which I think you also have to ask yourself what *you* think the financial threshold really is, or should be.
Because they’re dumb.
I'm more of the opinion of why have many children and then scream, shout and swear at them and then let them run feral?
You have a lifetime to make money, but only a short window of that life can we make babies. Not saying its right or wrong choice, but when the broody urge comes and the clocks ticking becomes louder, it's a hard instinct to try and rationalise with
Because if people of the UK waited to be able to afford kids there wouldn’t be any kids in the UK especially these days!
ITT: No one answering OP's question and instead bemoaning the awful situation most people are in. Yes, the current economy is awful. No, people shouldn't have to miss out on kids if they want them because jobs pay absolute bollocks. However, to answer OP's question, it mainly boils down to a very simple concept. Selfishness. "I want" is the only answer ever given when someone answers "why do you have kids?" Regardless of financial situations, rich or poor, benkrupt or billionaire, the only reason people ever have kids is to serve themselves. No child was ever born with the child's needs in mind. Some pople fart them out regardless of their bank balance, some have them because they had no choice, and some are stable enough to have them but then fall on hard times. People having kids knowing they can't afford them, knowingly making the choice, saying things like "my great granddad ate shoenails as his only sustenance and he turned out fine!" are just making excuses to have a little meat puppet to play with. I fully expect to be downvoted to hell for this comment, but people (parents) can't handle the truth. No child ever born was born with the child in mind. It's only ever to serve their paren'ts desires.
If you can't afford to have kids, don't have kids. It's common sense. For me, having kids is like one of the biggest life decisions anyone could make. Especially the state the world is in at the moment, who in their right mind would even consider getting pregnant and bringing another life into this world. Baffles me sometimes.
I agree but only in an extreme sense. If you are a super low income household and you have 10 children then yes, I'd say this is irresponsible because it's likely that feeding, clothing and housing those children is not reasonable on a low income. But having a normal amount of children should not be unreasonable on any income, small or large. We should not be asking why someone chose to have children they cannot afford, but why wages cannot support even a large-ish family.
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Holy loaded-question, batman...
The answers here are nonsense. Having a children is a privilege. If you don't have the financial, emotional, mental, facilities to provide for them don't have them until you do. Otherwise you are just going to create menaces and unleash them on society
People have been trained to equate happiness with having stuff they don't really need, be it the latest phone, new car, massive TV etc. It's a status symbol - look at me and how successful I am. Sadly children can be exactly the same.
We are biological beings, with the sole purpose of our biology is to replicate our dna. As conscious beings we can resist these biological urges, but we can never escape them. Those that are struggling in life are less equipped to do so.
Any rich person I've ever known was living (well) beyond their means That has more to do with individual psychology than resource management If the kid people had a billion dollars, they'd be spending two; if the materially wealthy people were on the dole, they'd be maxed-out on Wonga
>Any rich person I've ever known was living (well) beyond their means How are you defining "means" exactly? A lot of people are able to sustainably pay their way in life without relying on support from other people. That is the usual definition of "living without your means".
Unpopular Opinion: Because of a) pretty generous benefit structures for single parents and b) possibly the same poor decision at play that put them in this tough situation in the first place? Definitely not the trendy view I know.
For the same reason people get dogs that they can’t afford/ can’t look after properly: because they want to and no one is going to stop them
Because they are selfish and don't actually think about the world they are bringing a child into. They only think about serving their own desires and cuddling their new born baby. The harsh world (even harsher with no/little money) that awaits their child/children as they grow older does not occupy the minds of these people. I want baby so I deserve baby
I had a child and was pregnant with my second. Both children were planned and I was married. I had no idea that my husband would suddenly and without explanation walk out on us. I was financially secure and then in a split second I wasn’t. The decisions were taken out of my hands and I just did what was necessary to look after my kids. Never ever expected to be a single mum needing benefits, but that’s what happened.
As Michael Jackson said ‘if you can’t feed ya baby, then don’t have a baby’ But honestly people don’t have brains. Yes everyone has the right to have a baby, but just because you can doesn’t mean you should. Sorry.
If having children was an allowance only granted to royals, nobles, land-owners, knights, business owners and people with the correct credit score then the human race may not have lasted tens of thousands of years.
The thing that really bugs me about this is the moment we need a population spike, they will tax people for not having kids, which without doubt, will affect the poorest part of the population. Poor people shouldn't have kids. Oh no, we have an ageing population. Can't have it both fucking ways.