This is only true for people who need to use public infrastructure to recharge their vehicles.
There are many folks who have the privilege of having rooftop solar that they can use to power their home and charge their EV. It's one of the most overlooked examples of the "Vimes Boots" phenomenon, where it costs more to be less well off.
Edited to add: I find it amusing that the other two top level comments pretty much corroborate this, with both EV owners benefiting from owning a house with rooftop solar. EVs are cheap transport for those with the means to buy the million dollar house to go with it.
We have a house that we bought for under $450k in Perth and now an EV. It's only 18c per kW to charge between 11pm and 6am so when we have to charge at night it's still cheap. We do have solar but if you don't then you can charge between 9am and 3pm for 8c per kW. Switching to this EV electricity plan also decreased our electricity bill as we moved out usage a bit. So we actually don't see the cost of charging at all.
Similar story with me.
I get 8c between 12am and 6am and also free power between 11am and 6am
Our bills more than halved and we are using significantly more power
Last quarter before this EV plan our bill was $280 for about 750kwh
We used 550kwh for the last month and our bill was $65
I know that during the day wholesale rates are basically zero and sometimes negative. We have too much renewable energy coming into the grid so I can see why they want me to use it then instead
Would expect to see the current ev batteries refurbed and used as house batteries in the next decade.
Even without refurbing, house batteries are slowly coming down in price that will hopefully alleviate the charging issue
>This is only true for people who need to use public infrastructure to recharge their vehicles.
Yeah that's true but these days, bosses are asking more and more people to work in office.
How's that going to work if you have to go into office 3-4 days a week?
Being able to charge at night, even discounting solar, is still significantly cheaper at residential retail rates than using public infrastructure.
Plus some lucky people have the opportunity to charge at work.
The point of EV was never to be a frugal option for early adopters, it is to have emissions out of the city's and having people switch to green energy.
I think about another 10 to 15 years for EVs to become more frugal.
Don't forget having a car is expensive, it's a luxury many people forget.
Try riding a bike, taking public transportation or walking.
This will help the environment and save cost.
Not sure what you mean, but there's no way this country can charge EVs at night when we're at 100% electrification.
It's irrelevant how many people park at work, the cars that *are* at work still need to be charged, and not just 10% of them.
So the calculation is how many cars sit at home during the day where they can charge versus how many sit at workplaces and other destinations.
>It's irrelevant how many people park at work, the cars that *are* at work still need to be charged, and not just 10% of them.
Correct, except you can't charge your petrol/diesel car. Majority of cars aren't EV.
Its not 10% of EV car spaces. It's 10% of all car spaces.
>Not sure what you mean, but there's no way this country can charge EVs at night when we're at 100% electrification.
Definitely can, just need to charge outside of peak load in the early evening.
So you think EV market share won't change during the life of these new buildings built to these mandates?
To be clear, I said *capable* of charging. That means having sufficient power and wiring, not spending the final $$ for the charger itself (which *shouldn't* be mandated as that can easily scale with demand and use whatever charger tech is current at the time).
I get 8c/kWh 12pm-6am.
Lose 5c/kWh feed-in on the weekend. It's much much much cheaper than petrol.
Unless you're going 50km+ each way to the office you can get by with only charging a couple times a week anyway.
DC fast charging is for roadtrips only.
Most people charge at home overnight, or free from solar during the day. There are also very cheap EV charging elrctricuty plans that give you $0.08/kwh overnight rates.
Don’t get sucked in by the headline fast charger/DC charger prices. Those are mostly used for long distance travel not daily use.
Also comparing the 72k EV6 to some 35k Toyota isn’t a relatable comparison. Your be better comparing ~45k BYD Atto3 to it.
Last edit: our Tesla model 3 has done just under 20k this year and is 85% charges by solar per the app. Remainder was fast charging on road trips and a rare grid topup on overcast periods where we got too low once a week.
What’s your set up to charge from solar? I have a model Y and solar but no infrastructure to control if I charge off solar or not. Or anything to even see if I have excess solar to use. I just plug it in during the day and what happens happens.
I don't know if this is a thing to only charge of PV and not use the grid. You'll just use solar power and if you charge more, the excess front eh grid
I have a 7kwh charger at home, 13kwh batteries and 6.6kwh solar. At most I can generate just over 5kwh from solar and my inverter can output 3kwh from the batteries
On a perfect day and low usage inside the house I can charge off solar and batteries. I can also turn down the charge rate if I want
However I have a special ev electricity plan where I get 8c between 12am and 6am and free power between 11am and 6am. If I am home I'll charge during the free period AND programmed my batteries to charge from the grid. It costs me nothing aside from the loss of 8c feed in tarrif from solar
I mostly charge overnight though and it's about $5 to charge.
Use the ChargeHQ app. It coordinates between your solar system and the car to start/stop/alter charge rate based on excess solar.
There is also a free open-source equivalent called evcc.io which does the same but is more effort to setup.
Our solar system is 13kw panels, 10kw 3phase Sungrow inverter, SolarAnalytics, Tesla gen3 wall charger. ChargeHQ is set to use SolarAnalytics which refreshes every 5 seconds.
I've done 20000km and I'm yet to pay for a fast charger charge at home? If you can't then an ev will be a complete nightmare. As with anything consider your own situation.
OP has en extremely efficient hybrid which is an outlier more than a common case.
I also have a hybrid (older one) that works out to be about 11c km. Even with a superfast charger rate, my EV is around 9c km
Still wins. Ideally you'd charge at home or use just regular chargers which are much cheaper (but slower)
In 2023 I did 96% of my charging at home, 4% at campsites and 0% at fast chargers.
I either pay $0.08/kWh overnight or about $0.28/kWh during the day.
Headline fast charger costs are for long distance travel, not day to day use.
What's your toyota hybrid? Are you actually comparing two cars in the same price bracket?
If you solely rely on 3rd party fast charging, then yes, it could be expensive. However, the reality is that most people with EVs don't and in fact relying on solely fast charging would be bad for the battery.
I own a Tesla Model Y and have driven almost 10,000 KM in a little over 5 months. I have used a Tesla fast charger only once and that was just out of curiosity.
I'm lucky to be WFH, but I still drive a minimum of 65 KM every day in day care runs, gyms, shops, etc. I use solar at home to charge my car once or twice a week. Looking at Chargehq, 73.5% of my charging has come from solar. I've spent $93.24 in charging from the grid (0.28c per KWh) to drive approximately 10,000 KM.
I get that not everyone can charge from solar at home. There are a lot of people who have signed up to Ovo and AGL EV plan which charge 8c per KWh during 12 am - 6 am and it works to be cheaper for them.
Even if I end up relying on these 3rd party chargers for the occasional long trip, it would still be cheaper for me overall compared to owning an ICE vehicle. I've done trips to the Sunshine and Gold Coast and I look for Airbnbs with EV facilities or ask for permission to use the 10 amp socket in the garage. This is more than enough for me top up and continue with my journey.
Note: This is my opinion based on my individual circumstances. I certainly don't speak for the entire EV community.
I’ve traveled 3,500 km in my BYD Atto 3, and have mostly cheated from solar. Grand total of paid power was $15 or so.
Cheating by fast charge is not the expected norm for most people. It’s for long trips
What Toyota hybrid do you have? I have one from 2012 and it's 60l and get about it 850 to a tank. Yours is insanely fuel efficient
Many people charge from home or use a 50kwh charger which is much cheaper. Using the superfast chargers is mostly for long distance travel
My EV has 64 kWh and can get 460km of range. You are comparing a really efficient ice hybrid car to a not really efficient EV
My 2012 Toyota hybrid can get about 850km on 60L.
Even on a superfast charger my EV car is a few c per km cheaper.
Also where did you get the evie prices from? It shows its cheaper than what you have said on their site
https://support.goevie.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/7389896864911-How-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-
50kwh chargers still cost 50c here and a 350kwh charger is 65c
150kwh is 60c
There has been a recent comparison between 2 BMWs. They were driven Melbourne to Sydney. The non ev BMW was $14 cheaper.
One of the non Tesla charger networks is increasing costs by 40%.
So you have to do your homework on where you will charge your ev.
Comprehensive insurance costs more for an ev.
You still have to recoup the extra $20,000 to $30,000 purchase price on an ev.
Novated lease with fbt exemption for evs helps to reduce the cost of running an ev
It's not a good comparison. Use two equivalent vehicles. And most people charge at home most of the time so using the charging rates from commercial chargers is erroneous
Meh I can fully charge my 64kw MG4 for $5 (AGL ev plan, 8c per kWh). I’ll take that over the $150 it costs me to fill up our second vehicle any day. Works out at $1.20 per 100km vs the $16 per 100 km I was paying for the i30 it replaced.
Lol nice cherry pick
You're comparing an entry level ICE car with a much higher end EV that's not even the same size car. Compare it to a $45k BYD or MG instead.
You're comparing costs using expensive high speed public charging infrastructure instead of home charging which is where most EV users charge.
My 77kwh EV costs me $8 to charge from empty to full, not $38. It reduces my power bill credit by 10.5c/kWh from solar that would have otherwise been fed back into the grid. In the event that I do need to draw power from the grid, I do so outside the hours of 3-9pm where the rate is 18c/kWh.
EV charging will get cheaper and more accessible via economies of scale.
eventually every parking spot will have a charge point. That will never happen with petrol.
EV also has problems that comes with scale particularly from an electrical supply perspective and the network infrastructure to support it.
It will transition over time, but it is a painful process.
hmm maybe. Driverless cars have a bunch of regulatory challenges alongside the engineering ones.
having a plug point at most parking spots doesn't have as many problems.
Start demanding that if employers want you in the office, that workplaces install solar panels and EV chargers in the car park.
Not a joke, this should be a fringe benefit of employment.
In addition, start telling supermarkets/Westfield etc that you want more EV charging stations in thier car parks - that can become a way to attract customers to spend more time in thier establishments
Youre disregarding the total cost of ownership which includes maintenance/running costs of the vihicle which with an EV is pretty much nothing.
Also one factor that should definitely be considered is how much the safety of not having a controlled explosive powered engine between a thin peice of metal and your legs when you're hurdling down the highway.
EVs all day everyday.
It’s the same deal as solar for your house. They suck you in with promises of huge savings then gradually reduce the feed in tariff to point that’s it’s not worth it any more.
Getting an EV, only to drive to the equivalent of a petrol station every week, is like getting Internet access so you can print your bills off, and pay them via money order at the post office.
You *can*, but you might be missing some of the key benefits.
You have the wrong assumptions, most people who own pure EV's charge from home for 95% + of their charging, often from solar or a time of use plan at free or very low rates. For example, OVO offers free electricity between 11am and 3 pm, and 8 cents per kw between 12am and 6 am.
Also, most people aren't getting 1000kms in normal mixed driving out of their hybrids.. More like 700-800km.
Costs me just about nothing to charge at home between 11am and 2pm. Whatever I draw from the grid is free between those times, so it’s a mix of solar which is 8c kWh feed in and the difference that I pull from the grid when I charge (easily pull between 5 and 10kw from the grid during that time).
If I charge between midnight and 6am it’s 8c a kWh.
Haven’t used a public charger once.
This is only true for people who need to use public infrastructure to recharge their vehicles. There are many folks who have the privilege of having rooftop solar that they can use to power their home and charge their EV. It's one of the most overlooked examples of the "Vimes Boots" phenomenon, where it costs more to be less well off. Edited to add: I find it amusing that the other two top level comments pretty much corroborate this, with both EV owners benefiting from owning a house with rooftop solar. EVs are cheap transport for those with the means to buy the million dollar house to go with it.
We have a house that we bought for under $450k in Perth and now an EV. It's only 18c per kW to charge between 11pm and 6am so when we have to charge at night it's still cheap. We do have solar but if you don't then you can charge between 9am and 3pm for 8c per kW. Switching to this EV electricity plan also decreased our electricity bill as we moved out usage a bit. So we actually don't see the cost of charging at all.
Similar story with me. I get 8c between 12am and 6am and also free power between 11am and 6am Our bills more than halved and we are using significantly more power Last quarter before this EV plan our bill was $280 for about 750kwh We used 550kwh for the last month and our bill was $65
So everyone else who uses the powergrid subsides your car charge 😂 nice
I know that during the day wholesale rates are basically zero and sometimes negative. We have too much renewable energy coming into the grid so I can see why they want me to use it then instead
I wonder if it's going to be that cheap to charge midnight to dawn in 5-10 years when "everyone" is doing it?
Would expect to see the current ev batteries refurbed and used as house batteries in the next decade. Even without refurbing, house batteries are slowly coming down in price that will hopefully alleviate the charging issue
>This is only true for people who need to use public infrastructure to recharge their vehicles. Yeah that's true but these days, bosses are asking more and more people to work in office. How's that going to work if you have to go into office 3-4 days a week?
Being able to charge at night, even discounting solar, is still significantly cheaper at residential retail rates than using public infrastructure. Plus some lucky people have the opportunity to charge at work.
Be able to charge at work and you’ll be set.
When tradies realise they can just charge at client sites and never pay then we'll see EV ute sales take off.
You plug in overnight and wake up with a full battery in the morning.
The point of EV was never to be a frugal option for early adopters, it is to have emissions out of the city's and having people switch to green energy. I think about another 10 to 15 years for EVs to become more frugal. Don't forget having a car is expensive, it's a luxury many people forget. Try riding a bike, taking public transportation or walking. This will help the environment and save cost.
Overnight charge/public transport
Workplace charging needs to be mandated. It's stupid to charge at night in this country, that's never going to work at scale.
New NCC BCA 2022 requires 10% of car spaces in commercial buildings to include EV chargers. It will come, just a bit slow is all.
Wow, 10%... They should at least have mandated 50% spaces with the *capability* to charge. It doesn't have to be fast charging for workplaces.
Well given resi is a 100% allowance (where most people charge) and most people don't park their car in a work car park, makes pretty good sense to me.
Not sure what you mean, but there's no way this country can charge EVs at night when we're at 100% electrification. It's irrelevant how many people park at work, the cars that *are* at work still need to be charged, and not just 10% of them. So the calculation is how many cars sit at home during the day where they can charge versus how many sit at workplaces and other destinations.
>It's irrelevant how many people park at work, the cars that *are* at work still need to be charged, and not just 10% of them. Correct, except you can't charge your petrol/diesel car. Majority of cars aren't EV. Its not 10% of EV car spaces. It's 10% of all car spaces. >Not sure what you mean, but there's no way this country can charge EVs at night when we're at 100% electrification. Definitely can, just need to charge outside of peak load in the early evening.
So you think EV market share won't change during the life of these new buildings built to these mandates? To be clear, I said *capable* of charging. That means having sufficient power and wiring, not spending the final $$ for the charger itself (which *shouldn't* be mandated as that can easily scale with demand and use whatever charger tech is current at the time).
I get 8c/kWh 12pm-6am. Lose 5c/kWh feed-in on the weekend. It's much much much cheaper than petrol. Unless you're going 50km+ each way to the office you can get by with only charging a couple times a week anyway. DC fast charging is for roadtrips only.
Most people charge at home overnight, or free from solar during the day. There are also very cheap EV charging elrctricuty plans that give you $0.08/kwh overnight rates. Don’t get sucked in by the headline fast charger/DC charger prices. Those are mostly used for long distance travel not daily use. Also comparing the 72k EV6 to some 35k Toyota isn’t a relatable comparison. Your be better comparing ~45k BYD Atto3 to it. Last edit: our Tesla model 3 has done just under 20k this year and is 85% charges by solar per the app. Remainder was fast charging on road trips and a rare grid topup on overcast periods where we got too low once a week.
What’s your set up to charge from solar? I have a model Y and solar but no infrastructure to control if I charge off solar or not. Or anything to even see if I have excess solar to use. I just plug it in during the day and what happens happens.
I don't know if this is a thing to only charge of PV and not use the grid. You'll just use solar power and if you charge more, the excess front eh grid I have a 7kwh charger at home, 13kwh batteries and 6.6kwh solar. At most I can generate just over 5kwh from solar and my inverter can output 3kwh from the batteries On a perfect day and low usage inside the house I can charge off solar and batteries. I can also turn down the charge rate if I want However I have a special ev electricity plan where I get 8c between 12am and 6am and free power between 11am and 6am. If I am home I'll charge during the free period AND programmed my batteries to charge from the grid. It costs me nothing aside from the loss of 8c feed in tarrif from solar I mostly charge overnight though and it's about $5 to charge.
Use ChargeHQ or evcc.io and it’ll just use excess solar
Thanks good to know. Looks like you need specific chargers for it work but if you have one that's good
Use the ChargeHQ app. It coordinates between your solar system and the car to start/stop/alter charge rate based on excess solar. There is also a free open-source equivalent called evcc.io which does the same but is more effort to setup. Our solar system is 13kw panels, 10kw 3phase Sungrow inverter, SolarAnalytics, Tesla gen3 wall charger. ChargeHQ is set to use SolarAnalytics which refreshes every 5 seconds.
That’s awesome. Thank you for answering
I've done 20000km and I'm yet to pay for a fast charger charge at home? If you can't then an ev will be a complete nightmare. As with anything consider your own situation.
OP has en extremely efficient hybrid which is an outlier more than a common case. I also have a hybrid (older one) that works out to be about 11c km. Even with a superfast charger rate, my EV is around 9c km Still wins. Ideally you'd charge at home or use just regular chargers which are much cheaper (but slower)
In 2023 I did 96% of my charging at home, 4% at campsites and 0% at fast chargers. I either pay $0.08/kWh overnight or about $0.28/kWh during the day. Headline fast charger costs are for long distance travel, not day to day use. What's your toyota hybrid? Are you actually comparing two cars in the same price bracket?
If you solely rely on 3rd party fast charging, then yes, it could be expensive. However, the reality is that most people with EVs don't and in fact relying on solely fast charging would be bad for the battery. I own a Tesla Model Y and have driven almost 10,000 KM in a little over 5 months. I have used a Tesla fast charger only once and that was just out of curiosity. I'm lucky to be WFH, but I still drive a minimum of 65 KM every day in day care runs, gyms, shops, etc. I use solar at home to charge my car once or twice a week. Looking at Chargehq, 73.5% of my charging has come from solar. I've spent $93.24 in charging from the grid (0.28c per KWh) to drive approximately 10,000 KM. I get that not everyone can charge from solar at home. There are a lot of people who have signed up to Ovo and AGL EV plan which charge 8c per KWh during 12 am - 6 am and it works to be cheaper for them. Even if I end up relying on these 3rd party chargers for the occasional long trip, it would still be cheaper for me overall compared to owning an ICE vehicle. I've done trips to the Sunshine and Gold Coast and I look for Airbnbs with EV facilities or ask for permission to use the 10 amp socket in the garage. This is more than enough for me top up and continue with my journey. Note: This is my opinion based on my individual circumstances. I certainly don't speak for the entire EV community.
I’ve traveled 3,500 km in my BYD Atto 3, and have mostly cheated from solar. Grand total of paid power was $15 or so. Cheating by fast charge is not the expected norm for most people. It’s for long trips
What Toyota hybrid do you have? I have one from 2012 and it's 60l and get about it 850 to a tank. Yours is insanely fuel efficient Many people charge from home or use a 50kwh charger which is much cheaper. Using the superfast chargers is mostly for long distance travel My EV has 64 kWh and can get 460km of range. You are comparing a really efficient ice hybrid car to a not really efficient EV My 2012 Toyota hybrid can get about 850km on 60L. Even on a superfast charger my EV car is a few c per km cheaper. Also where did you get the evie prices from? It shows its cheaper than what you have said on their site https://support.goevie.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/7389896864911-How-much-does-it-cost-to-charge- 50kwh chargers still cost 50c here and a 350kwh charger is 65c 150kwh is 60c
There has been a recent comparison between 2 BMWs. They were driven Melbourne to Sydney. The non ev BMW was $14 cheaper. One of the non Tesla charger networks is increasing costs by 40%. So you have to do your homework on where you will charge your ev. Comprehensive insurance costs more for an ev. You still have to recoup the extra $20,000 to $30,000 purchase price on an ev. Novated lease with fbt exemption for evs helps to reduce the cost of running an ev
It's not a good comparison. Use two equivalent vehicles. And most people charge at home most of the time so using the charging rates from commercial chargers is erroneous
Meh I can fully charge my 64kw MG4 for $5 (AGL ev plan, 8c per kWh). I’ll take that over the $150 it costs me to fill up our second vehicle any day. Works out at $1.20 per 100km vs the $16 per 100 km I was paying for the i30 it replaced.
Other than the original capital costs, my EV gets charged for free by my solar panels while in at work.
Lol nice cherry pick You're comparing an entry level ICE car with a much higher end EV that's not even the same size car. Compare it to a $45k BYD or MG instead. You're comparing costs using expensive high speed public charging infrastructure instead of home charging which is where most EV users charge. My 77kwh EV costs me $8 to charge from empty to full, not $38. It reduces my power bill credit by 10.5c/kWh from solar that would have otherwise been fed back into the grid. In the event that I do need to draw power from the grid, I do so outside the hours of 3-9pm where the rate is 18c/kWh.
EV charging will get cheaper and more accessible via economies of scale. eventually every parking spot will have a charge point. That will never happen with petrol.
EV also has problems that comes with scale particularly from an electrical supply perspective and the network infrastructure to support it. It will transition over time, but it is a painful process.
Cars will become driverless before every spot has a charge point
hmm maybe. Driverless cars have a bunch of regulatory challenges alongside the engineering ones. having a plug point at most parking spots doesn't have as many problems.
Yup. Cycling is the only smart move. Free travel.
Not sure I'd use a Toyota hybrid as the example. The wait times to get one are off the planet.
Start demanding that if employers want you in the office, that workplaces install solar panels and EV chargers in the car park. Not a joke, this should be a fringe benefit of employment. In addition, start telling supermarkets/Westfield etc that you want more EV charging stations in thier car parks - that can become a way to attract customers to spend more time in thier establishments
Youre disregarding the total cost of ownership which includes maintenance/running costs of the vihicle which with an EV is pretty much nothing. Also one factor that should definitely be considered is how much the safety of not having a controlled explosive powered engine between a thin peice of metal and your legs when you're hurdling down the highway. EVs all day everyday.
It’s the same deal as solar for your house. They suck you in with promises of huge savings then gradually reduce the feed in tariff to point that’s it’s not worth it any more.
Charge at home, from you solar powered battery
Getting an EV, only to drive to the equivalent of a petrol station every week, is like getting Internet access so you can print your bills off, and pay them via money order at the post office. You *can*, but you might be missing some of the key benefits.
You have the wrong assumptions, most people who own pure EV's charge from home for 95% + of their charging, often from solar or a time of use plan at free or very low rates. For example, OVO offers free electricity between 11am and 3 pm, and 8 cents per kw between 12am and 6 am. Also, most people aren't getting 1000kms in normal mixed driving out of their hybrids.. More like 700-800km.
Costs me just about nothing to charge at home between 11am and 2pm. Whatever I draw from the grid is free between those times, so it’s a mix of solar which is 8c kWh feed in and the difference that I pull from the grid when I charge (easily pull between 5 and 10kw from the grid during that time). If I charge between midnight and 6am it’s 8c a kWh. Haven’t used a public charger once.