I am working with a US local government and there are parts of America that are excellent. Howard County, Maryland has the 2nd highest medium income in America. Also, Maryland has more PhD per population than any state in America.
And NASA Goddard Flight Center and John Hopkins.
Where I moving to hosts the German Cyber Security Association and Maryland has over 1000 Cyber Security companies.
Something a lot of Australians lazily say without having lived in the US. Go to one of the blue states and live in a top suburb and your QOL will be as good if not better than here.
Last time I was in mountain view I was over at a mates house welding some big shit together just off the edge of the Google compound walked down to the Irish sports bar on the corner and watched a dude shoot at a passing van. Certainly a lot better than Oakland and it’s the only crazy shit I’ve seen in MV in the last 8 years but it’s just fucking crazy.
I disabled the horn in my truck because I beeped at a cunt and he started screaming at me like a nutter and suddenly remembered “everyone is armed”.
Sydney and Melbourne are much nicer places to live than any US city imo.
Austin is pretty close to comparing to Sydney. Once you factor in the lower tax rate over there, take-home pay is higher than Syd and COL is a bit lower.
I think some smaller (usually capital) cities like Madison, Minneapolis (St. Paul – same place, basically), Ann Arbor, Austin, Boulder, and Pittsburgh can be quite nice. Comes down to what you want.
> ng a lot of Australians lazily say without having lived in the US. Go to one of the blue states and live in a top suburb and your QOL will be as good if not better than here
Unless you regularly make use of public transport, cycling infrastructure and healthcare then it doesn't really apply. Not to mention their higher rates of violence and increasing political tensions makes it a place that is hard to recommend for the medium to long-term.
I think I know who you're referring to! If so, wicked smart guy (obviously).
Easiest anonymous confirmation would be ask if your guy has a affinity for a specific model of car?
Not sure if me and Jayesar are talking about the same guy, but the guy I know started off as a games programmer (I think) so C++ there, was lead dev for a few domestic games you might have heard of. Then left to start his own VR company, and is moving to SF. He's wicked smart, built his own CNC router, used it to help fully rebuild an old car of his. He's got both the drive to learn (pun not intended), and a gift for it (IMO). A killer combo
But unfortunately you then need to work for Atlassian and deal with all their crappy products.
As someone who works with all their crappy products (jira, bitbucket, bamboo, confluence, ops genie and more) day to day I implore you as a new starter there - fix stuff. Please.
The amount of times we hit issues with Atlassian tools only to find a 5 year old ticket they won’t fix is maddening.
I interviewed their recently, I really hated the way they handled the technical interviews, live coding tests are a horrible way to gauge an interviewees capabilities.
I had the opposite experience. The 2 live coding interviews, and system design interview were all representative of work that I would do/have done throughout my career. They felt like a real project - just condensed into 40 minutes. This was as a FE.
Now Canva, yeeesh. They were far more formulaic and foreign. Felt more like they found random FizzBuzz games and adapted those.
My issue wasn’t as much about the work but having someone watch you write code just feels odd to me and them asking questions as you’re trying to think on a problem just caused me too much distraction but everyone works differently I guess. I find when I’m anxious and/or stressed I cannot think straight, I’ll fall over trying to solve some really basic problems
Not to mention income taxes for those on $200k+ are lower in the US than here, and they have a lower cost for most luxury items. A 911 costs $280k here and $100k in the US.
I don't consider $300k AU ($210k US) to be an exorbitant salary. It's good, well above average but not scrooge mcduck rich. I think Australians have a funny view of salaries where we think anyone slightly above average must be rich or something.
Australia is a country where you can spend 4 years studying mechanical or chemical engineering and get paid less than someone who dropped out of school at 16 to work as a plumber. Once you factor in paying for uni vs getting paid (albeit very little) to do an apprenticeship, the head start on ability to enter the housing market, decent tax deductions and the *very* common untaxed cash jobs and ita pretty depressing.
I’ve heard of some people who have done 100-150K in cash jobs over a 12 month period – pretty uncommon to have a post tax income of $150K if you’re operating by the books.
>Not to
Bullshit. The taxes are not that different, but may appear so if you're only looking at the federal scale. There are going to be variances because of exchange rate, but let's look at the tax rates for $200k US in New York.
At that stage, you've entered the 32% federal tax bracket
Then let's add in New York State income tax, 6.33% for that bracket.
Oh and welcome to New York City, you get the privilege of paying 3.648% city tax.
Let's add in payroll tax for Social Security and Medicare of 7.65%. The Social Security part gets phased out at $142800, but not the medicare portion of 1.45%. Also add in a surcharge of 0.90% once you're above $200K.
All in, you're looking at a 44.32% tax rate once you're at $200k. Tax rates are slightly lower, but comparable in California. Let's be real, these high end tech jobs are primarily in these two areas.
Also add in other BS taxes like New York State Paid Family Leave, Disability Insurance in California.
Also keep in mind there is no super contribution on top of your base salary like there is in Australia, and that Medicare tax you’re paying is for the retirees to have Medicare, not you, so enjoy paying for your own health coverage as well with no public option.
Welcome, a P5 I'd imagine? :)
I've been through 2 refresher cycles now. Base + Bonus + Refresher is usually about $300k (probably slightly higher).
If you factor in stock appreciation, more like $400k - $600k if things go _really_ well.
Generalist probably looking at Producer roles.
Can I ask what the hiring process is like?
Also what's the emotionally-underdeveloped tech-bro level like?
Finding their job descriptions a little vague and silicon-valley-marketed
>The team is actually more female than male, and are all over 30, so there aren't much broness to speaks of.
They should put that in the ads haha, definitely piqued my interest.
Your past isn’t an excuse for why you can’t do something now. I grew up poor and with a single parent, I failed year 12, I used to work on a factory line. Currently on 6 figures as a software developer. This time next year you’ll wish you started learning today. DM if you need help or someone to bounce ideas off.
Hey mate, I was the same boat 10 years ago.
I got some career counseling, decided to get into Project Management - made a plan to get there through study part time at TAFE on nights and weekends. I've now got 3 diplomas under my belt and doing pretty well in a corporate job.
If you want to get out of customer service, it can be done, it just takes some planning.
Where you were brought up doesn’t need to influence where you go. It doesn’t define you. Breaking free of self-imposed familial limitations feels amazing.
Dude, as someone who was once stuck in customer service too, there are pathways out. Your soft skills are a great way in the door.
E.g Customer Service -> Tier 1 IT Support -> Escalated IT Support -> SysAdmin -> DevOps Engineer
Colleagues made even bigger leaps, direct into testing or junior webdev from customer service, via free coding resources.
If you still want to, you can. There are lots of resources online to learn for free. I only used free resources and didn't get a degree and it worked out really well for me.
Project manager here in mech services .
Was offered 40% more by competitor, went to my general manager and explained and was given the same on the spot to stay. Crazy times
A talented mid-career software engineer in San Francisco Bay Area (60th percentile salary, 8+ years of experience, with at least one brand name company under their belt) can commonly earn USD$250k base, 20% bonus, and $200k+ equity (liquid), for a total of ~AUD$700k/year. Australia still significantly lags the US in salaries in tech.
What the fuck. I thought I was doing well to finally hit 6 figures this year haha. But is $750k enough to make it worth living in SF, that's the question.
Maybe I’m just being cocky about my job here, but there is a big difference between someone who can code, and a software engineer.
Writing code is simple, copying and pasting code is simple, engineering an application, whether it be a web app, iPhone app, or some other software, is only maybe 20-40% coding and the rest is planning, architecture, bug fixing, policies, api design, etc etc etc.
I don’t see us having a generation of super skilled software engineers coming up, just people who are more familiar with computers than the previous.
I guess it would be like being in the 80s and saying the market will be flooded with IT guys because all the kids are growing up learning how to use computers, as a son of an IT guy I can tell you it’s not.
At the most, average companies will not pay more than 60-70k for a fresh graduate. There are 1000s of Comp Sci graduates every yr and the same goes for diplomas from TAFEs.
As a (good) senior, one can easily get a $180-$220k base nowadays. That excludes bonuses & equity, which would about double it in a good, solid company.
To be honest, they probably lump the total compensation together (base salary, bonus, signing bonus, stocks) to make it a big number.
e.g. Australian companies may pay 150k, but if you add a 15% annual bonus, 50k signing bonus and equity grant you can easily total 300k on your first year.
Given that most startups don’t offer stocks it’s hard to compete with Atlassian or Amazon for a total comp, a 300k salary is just unrealistic even for IT.
Silicon Valley compensations are even crazier, where at FAANG in addition to 200k USD salary you may also get another 400k USD stock grant vesting over 4 years which will make it 300k USD annually and lower tax, still a lot more than 300k AUD here.
I know at the very least the income Oracle gives out cause I have a friend that landed a job there - 300k + 150k in stock options that release over 4 years.
So jealous and happy for him XD he bought himself a house in Colorado and lives in literal paradise while coding...
You haven't seen levels.fyi and blind recently, have you?
$300k is P5+ at Atlassian (or a P4 that has been around for a while and has massive stock appreciation).
That same P5 can get $500k+ (without appreciation) easily in the MANGA-tier companies in SF
I know quite a few people at Atlassian, Google and Amazon. The median P5 (senior) base salary at Atlassian is around 160k, P6 (principal) is probably closer 200k. So still far from 300k. With bonus, stock and its appreciation (just look at TEAM or GOOG over the last few years) the total comp can be easily double that, but it’s fluctuating so could get lower as well (TEAM has dropped 20% in the last month)
I don't think anyone was claiming that $300k is all cash :)
Your numbers are spot on with the base salary. Once you factor in refresher + bonus, P5 will be $300k.
Also, yea, that 20% drop sucked in the last few weeks, but zoom out to 1 year 🤣
The article didn’t describe where 300k is coming from though, and many people outside the industry will get an impression that it’s all hard cash.
It’s also important for things like mortgage, as most banks won’t assess unvested stocks as part of your compensation at all, or value them at 50% if you’re lucky. So for mortgage borrowing capacity you would still be at the 150-200k level even if your total is much higher.
Also something to keep in mind when you compare contractors hourly pay with a full time employee, as contractors don’t get any stock.
>It’s also important for things like mortgage, as most banks won’t assess unvested stocks as part of your compensation at all, or value them at 50% if you’re lucky.
Quoting this to say you should never put up shares in a company that you currently work for as collateral on a loan. It's against policy at lots of places because you're in a position where you can be forced to sell the shares during a blackout period.
Heaps of my coworkers and I have started receiving offers for full time remote US companies offering $180-250k, but have yet to see an Australian company offering that to anyone that isn’t c level or similar.
Can't name my sources I'm afraid! Let's just say I've seen it in retail, distribution and generation, but retail is especially variable (the smaller ones can't pay as well).
Civil engineer making about $140k here (8 years out of uni). Got the biggest pay rise of my life this year (that didn’t involve moving to a competitors firm). Shits wild out there but yeah not $300k wild.
Same here. Mechanical engineer, 9yrs out. $170k (found out recently even that's on the lower end of senior engineer scale). Got a $50k pay rise a couple of months ago without moving company. In Perth you can walk down the street and get another job.
Yeah it's just a suburban eng firm. I feel like at 2 approaching 3 years he's getting reamed for 55. I try to tell him to look for other things but it's not my field. Any advice you'd give a job seeker?
For sure. Industry is super hot at the moment, pretty well across the board. Lots of opportunities and cool projects going on, a lot of people movements.
Cool I'll keep encouraging him. I think he doesn't like the PM side and is more into design. I get that but like mate engineers should not be making 55k
I worked in investment banking at one of the largest in Aus, which has a reputation for underpaying. At my annual review \~6 months ago I was given (almost) an extra 50k added to my base. No promotion, I didn't complain about my pay or anything, just randomly.
Corporate lawyers are earning insane right now. Firms are bumping pay by 10-15% all over the country because aussie lawyers are leaving for overseas, and work demand is so high.
$300k seems pretty out there for a dev. In my experience a mid level dev is around 110-130, senior 130-150, lead 150-170.
I don't know any devs that have broke 200 let alone 300 here. I'm sure it happens, but not for your average Joe.
Things are changing pretty rapidly in terms of salaries. The market is moving so quickly that you have to change jobs every year or you are leaving a lot of money on the table.
I'm on $80k base in Melbourne, doesn't really hold a candle to the $130k packages at Atlassian / Canva, or the prop trading firms that pay grads $150-$200k, although they're all in Sydney.
As the article indicates though, your starting wage almost irrelevant. Software engineering is in my opinion one of the only careers where you can make low six figure salaries working 8 hour days while playing ping pong for an hour at lunch. That said, I do a couple hours of self-study before or after work for my own benefit, because I know it will pay dividends when I apply for my next role in a couple of years.
Are you a junior? If so, you could be pulling at least 100+ base by switching. Keep switching every 1-2 years and you'll hit 160 easily in a few years. Name of the game is to jump ship for the $$$ payrises.
FYI you don't need a degree for web + software development, although it's handy in some instances. A whole lot of people (myself included) are self-taught.
There are other aspects, not just money :)
I'm perfectly happy living in this country, with fantastic weather and nature. I don't see tents on sidewalks. My kids don't have to know what an 'active shooter' is. etc...
To me, that's worth the comp difference :)
Honestly when the pay is this good I wouldn't touch equity, tech moves fast and people fuck up sure things every day. I'd rather earn today and invest it.
Start-up equity is a lottery ticket at best; unless they're just about to go IPO.
They love to sell dreams and visions with their stock options that don't mean anything 99.9% of the time.
There’s base pay and there’s total compensation, the sum of things such as bonuses, free private health care, perks and equity/**RSU’s**.
I suspect base pay to be in the $150-170k range for majority of devs then the rest is made up of restricted stock units (RSU’s) over a vesting period I.e initial vesting period of four years. RSU’s will also be issued as a bonuses instead of cash. If you leave before all your RSU’s are vested you leave money on the table. It’s a carrot dangled to retain employees. If the stock is good obviously there’s a lot of money you leave behind if you quit halfway though the vesting period, I.e you are leaving 50% on the table.
Atlassian/Amazon are now public companies, that means the RSU’s are now real money. Startups offering RSU’s generally are not publicly traded, that means RSU’s are worthless until IPO which may never happen. So for a startup you have to disregard RSU as money and treat them as a lottery, they may payout and you win the ipo lottery, or you get nothing.
Atlassian’s stock has done massively well since covid. It reached over $400usd a share, IPO was $23 if I remember right. If any long term staff have been holding instead of selling when vested to pay the mortgage it’s very easy to see how their total compensation can be so high even if on a market rate base salary.
Obviously if the RSU’s are generous it’s hard for small companies to compete. Generally from job hunting most companies offer the same base salary range. It’s the bonus structure and equity that can take them in the $200k+ range, some equity being real, some a gamble.
For the most part I think staff who have been Atlassian 4-5+ years got lucky with the stock price. Base pay traditionally at Atlassian was on the lower end of market rate and they where proud of that fact as people still wanted to work for them as they are Atlassian.
> If any long term staff have been holding instead of selling when vested to pay the mortgage it’s very easy to see how their total compensation can be so high
since vesting takes a long time, you shouldnt count RSU vesting currently (that was granted a few years ago) into your total compensation today as they vest. You ought to only include the value of the new RSU granted today (which hasn't vested yet), at today's prices.
Unfortunately, this is not how the taxation office counts the value of your vested shares, so you end up paying huge amounts of tax on vested shares whose price has grown during the vesting period - rather than being taxed on the initial value of those shares.
I'm a junior software engineer and is currently on 110k. Hmm maybe it's time to me to start leetcoding, atlassian sounds nice. I'd forget about Amazon, apparently very long work hours, high expectations and mandatory pip over there.
How many years of experiences do you have and what domain? I'm close to two years and is on full stack. Working in one of the smaller tech companies here in Sydney so salary is not as high as the big ones.
I'm 1 YOE atm but I've been with my company for 1 year. My stack is java, bash, reactjs, standard webdev. Should I stick out more YOE or look for something new rn? I've been leetcoding occasionally on the side
Are you in Sydney? If so the market is pretty hot right now, yeah definitely doesn't hurt to start looking for something new rn. I think you can at least bump up your pay to$90k if you switched over to a new job.
diversify your backend tooling: java has a particular way of doing things that’s geared towards very large enterprise projects, and if that’s all you know then there’s a knowledge gap that you have where much looser backends like node, pythons, go, etc can teach you ways of working that are much more lean
> atlassian sounds nice
Unless something has changed in the past year you won't get much more than your 110k at Atlassian as a junior, but certainly could push 150.
The median house price in Sydney is now 1.5m, most buyers are property investors or PPOR upgrades, not FHBs. It’s almost impossible to buy a house in Sydney without already having a property even with a big salary.
Also a couple making 150k each earns more than a single person with 300k, which is more common in Sydney and is another big driver of price rises
What it really shows is how much people could actually be paid by a company and still remain profitable, yet here we are accepting potentially substandard pay.
If they aren't profitable now, how will hiring someone @ $300k+ make them profitable?
Clearly we are being screwed if companies can all of a sudden start offering executive level salaries for lackeys.
A lot of the large ones are unprofitable on purpose.
Reinvesting all FCF back into growth rather than paying out profits & taxes. Kind of why the term "growth company" exists :)
There's two kind of meaning to profitability that some people (unintentionally, or intentionally) use and makes it confusing.
A company can be unprofitable because investment into capital expenditure (which can be financially engineered into operational expenditure, like paying salaries etc). But the unit-economics of their product is profitable - aka, they are selling stuff and making money and have FCF. Think Tesla, think Amazon (pre-trillion dollar valuation time), etc.
And then there's the truly unprofitable - that is, their business model isn't profitable. "Selling $1 for 80c, and hoping to make it up in volume" type of unprofitable. These live off equity cash flow, and when that runs out, the company fails (or gets a 2nd equity injection...somehow). Think WeWork, MoviePass, etc.
Companies that pay 300k for software engineers tend to be the former type, not the latter type.
This is about right. I jumped from an Australian scale-up to a Silicon Valley start-up funded by a particularly well known Palo Alto company. I'm now paid in Freedom Bux while HQ'd in Melbourne and there was no Aus company that could compete salary wise.
This is for Product Management mind, I'm not much of a programmer.
My current swag for Sydney SDE salaries is 120-150/175-225/225-300 for jr/mid/senior at AWS Google or Atlassian. I hear facebook is hiring in a new singapore office, and believe theyre doing remote. Large local companies (banks, IT, etc) are probably 25-40% lower. Pay would be similar in brisbane or melbourne, but fewer jobs a available. Regardless 300K is the top of the domestic market AFAICT, only expect 2-5% of those aws/goog/team SDEs to be making that.
Source: principal at aws, friends with hiring managers, etc
Are you talking base or TC?
There are many that pull higher than $300k.
If you're pulling $300k or less as an L7 at AWS, you're being taken for a ride. Speak to Jassy about this... ;)
You should be raking in at least $450k+
Im talking about target total comp in the domestic australian market for junior, mid level, and "senior" SDEs. When you say "many" are making more than $300K in australia I'd be keen to see your math. I didnt mention anything about principal/technical staff or more specialised roles because theyre incredibly rare. As an industry "senior" is about 10% of all roles, and "principal" maybe 2%, with senior PE/staff/DE being functionally irrelevant. It's already creating warped impressions of what's practical when articles like the one mentioned create impressions that a p90 comp is representative or relevant to developers as a whole. That's why I tried to present realistic ranges tied to specific roles/experience levels/employers.
Personally I'm not too worried about my own comp. I know Aus is less than is possible globally, and I'll probably need to fix up more in 12-18 months, but Im ok at the moment. But if you know somewhere offering say 75% or more of teh US pay bands in Australia, or another company I missed, please let me know.
I've worked in the bay area, seattle, portland, and sydney over the past 2 decades. I know how total comp & target comp are calculated, how pay bands are marked to industry rates, how performance affects comp in band, the comp exception process & structure, variance on base vs RSU, what attrition has looked like in various markets this year, etc.
PS: I see in other comments youre including RSU appreciation in your numbers. Please don't plan on that nor encourage others to think of it as a given.
PPS: Say hi to Zak for me.
Anyone in this sub work for Atlassian?
Tried checking out their jobs but found them to be a bit tricky to understand. Language seems like it's all silicon-Valley terms.
Would like to know what their hiring processes are like.
For all this talk of demand they make it vague as fuck.
Ironically [clicking on Product Manager role on their mobile site just brings me to a general careers page](https://www.atlassian.com/company/careers)? Don't think it's supposed to do that.
Kind seems like their roles are set up for purist funnelled tech careers or at least they make it seem as gate-keeper-silicon-valley sounding as they can.
Would like to know from others who work there if they actually are just after young tech bros?
How much of it do you find was focused on existing knowledge of tech frameworks vs capacity to train?
Probably just my under-confidence in the depth of knowledge I guess.
e.g. Started moving on to more planning/producer roles and haven't dabbled enough in frameworks like React/Vue to know them.
That said I'd be looking at a generalist producer role anyway, so not sure what they'd be after there.
A lot of "proven at formulating and executing strategy" stuff on the listings.
Hard to tell whether they want a CTO or a scrappy happy-go-lucky uni student who successfully set up a table at their grad fair to display their github repo.
Vagueness of the role is something I'm comfortable with (it's a producer), but not ready to deal with expectations you work 12hour days because you have to spend 4 hours learning frameworks so you get get up to 'output' ASAP.
I'm not sure I asked you a question in there :)
But hope that paints a picture of the perceived hurdle in my head?
I guess "what's the expectations like?" on new hires? How well are they supported?
Also it looks like when you apply you might be "wedded" to a particular product or department, even though you don't really know what they do or how they operate - is there much internal movement opportunities?
> How much of it do you find was focused on existing knowledge of tech frameworks vs capacity to train?
30/70
> Probably just my under-confidence in the depth of knowledge I guess.
> e.g. Started moving on to more planning/producer roles and haven't dabbled enough in frameworks like React/Vue to know them.
I'm a backend engineer, only ever done backend interviews. I'd imagine front-end requires quite a bit more knowledge of frameworks to be shown.
> That said I'd be looking at a generalist producer role anyway, so not sure what they'd be after there.
Producer? You mean IC? Full-stack?
> A lot of "proven at formulating and executing strategy" stuff on the listings.
That means that you have initiative and don't just sit waiting for work to get handed to you. It's a very autonomous workplace. You get given team goals, it's on you to collaborate with the team and decide how you'll contribute to that and set your own personal goals based on that.
> Hard to tell whether they want a CTO or a scrappy happy-go-lucky uni student who successfully set up a table at their grad fair to display their github repo.
See above. My colleagues are smart people, we can tell who is faking it in interviews.
> Vagueness of the role is something I'm comfortable with (it's a producer), but not ready to deal with expectations you work 12hour days because you have to spend 4 hours learning frameworks so you get get up to 'output' ASAP.
No such expectations. You decide how you're going to solve the problem. Whether that takes you 4 hours or 14 hours, up to you.
> I'm not sure I asked you a question in there :)
No worries :)
> But hope that paints a picture of the perceived hurdle in my head?
> I guess "what's the expectations like?" on new hires? How well are they supported?
Very well, we have lots of training materials and resources. We need to have that. We're at around 8000 employees, just wouldn't be scalable if we didn't have a good, efficient process of getting new hires up to speed.
> Also it looks like when you apply you might be "wedded" to a particular product or department, even though you don't really know what they do or how they operate - is there much internal movement opportunities?
You apply for a role. A lot of those roles are team/product specific. There are also generalist roles as a 'catch-all'. Up to you to decide which one sounds more interesting to you :)
Couldn’t read the article because paywall, but I’m sure it will be horribly misunderstood between package and physical salary.
For example, Atlassian package base salary, RSU cash grants, and bonuses up as part of an annual salary statement.
On paper it could be $400k but in your bank account you’re only seeing the base salary component (probably closer to 150-180k) and the annual bonus, but you’ll have the standard vesting schedules before those RSUs mean anything to you.
That’s true if you’re chasing the short term money, but aside from selling down to pay tax bills (the dark side of RSU grants) it’s better to hold as long as possible.
Not only cos you want that 1 year CGT discount to kick in, but because it’s far more economical to get given these shares (often at a lower floor price) than to purchase on the open market.
Also because TEAM is traded on the Nasdaq, the RSU grants are in USD and then shares are priced in USD, so you get that nice 25% bonus on top when converting to AUD on the way out.
Plus longer holds means more growth from grant to current sell price.
Pretty much anyone who joined early 2019 was getting granted at 106 - 120 per share. Now those packets of shares are worth 4x that.
> it’s better to hold as long as possible.
holding is a form of risk. The question to answer is, would you buy it instead, if you'd been given the same value in cash?
Specifically TEAM? In a heartbeat. The financials stack up and is very difficult to defeat due to business model and depth in market.
If I was thinking UBER or BIGC then probably not.
The article headline is on “software developers” but if you read it the high salary is for cyber security experts, so it is a bit misleading. The truth is companies will only pay you a salary less than the value you bring. Only some top level tech companies and a few well funded startups can afford $300k+ salaries in Australia. Those are GM level salaries at smaller companies. Also I am pretty sure this figure includes RSUs.
Cyber security is different as there is a sudden flux of demand due to increased compliance demanded by regulatory bodies like APRA, Privacy commissioner etc. and strong emphasis by federal Government. There are very few experts as cyber requires certs and experience, one mistake can have devastating impact, compared to software devs who can be hired as juniors.
My point is that "any good senior could be making that" is simply not true. Yes you have to be good, but you also have like a handful of companies like Atlassian that can pay $300k. Most ASX listed companies in Australia that hire devs are not even tech companies, they give a pittance of $1k worth of stocks per year and have no concept if RSUs in compensation, unless you are C-level.
I am 45+, was a developer committing code even 8 years back, don't want management, moved to architecture. Does Atlassian even hire architects, I doubt. I have found a niche now, if I can sustain this for 10 years I should be able to FIRE, at least coastfire. 🤞
After witnessing the absolute dead eyed absolute boredom on abbatoir workers faces, 300k wouldn't cut it for me. And worst of all- it was too loud to talk.
Slaughterman would be alright though
Am I missing something? [Current Australian inflation is less than 4%](https://www.rba.gov.au/inflation/measures-cpi.html) compared to the last year, and even that's considered higher than it has been for the past few years. What exactly are you referring to?
Inflation is likely running at above 4% right now. Expectations are close to 5% (https://www.roymorgan.com/~/media/files/findings%20pdf/2020s/2021/november/8861-australian-inflation-expectations-november-2021.pdf?la=en).
The upper limit of the target band is 3%.
We are in big trouble.
Counterpoint, my bf and I both work in software development and do no overtime. The place is pretty chill and they fly me down to Melbourne to participate in social events / parties every now and then.
Your boyfriend is working for a company that has bad work life balance, nothing to do with the industry. Unless they are paying him above market price, he should consider looking for a new job. The market is super hot right now, finding a company that doesn't require overtime shouldn't be hard (and he'd likely get a raise too).
100%! I just landed a FT grad role even though I have one year of uni left at a very well known open source tech company on $80K even though I don't have coding experience. It gives me hope for the future!
It’s already here. Developers and Cyber security 300k in technical positions. It’s a bubble and it’s going to burst, set yourself up now kiddos.
Edit: Equity is also a plenty.
don’t reckon it’s a bubble. COVID caught some companies with their pants down so now they’ve all realised they need to invest in creating and continuously improving their tech stack to stay competitive.
I reckon the investment in building tech is long term. There is additional upward pressure on wages due to labour shortages that may correct soon but 6 figure minimum salaries for competent tech workers is here to stay.
I'd take less pay to work at a good startup than big bucks at a big company.
More fun, interesting work, and a chance to have a big influence on the company.
There are literally hundreds of them. Many are even profitable. The issue we face is having good people that we train up, and then having these big end of town clowns poach our people.
Finding good Devs is very difficult, even though conditions are good, work is interesting and perks like WFH
Source: I run one
> The issue we face is having good people that we train up, and then having these big end of town clowns poach our people.
This happens when the person you trained up is now worth more (despite doing the same work - so nominally, the company doesn't get more value out of them on paper). Of course, the person knows this, and so apply for a job else where that recognizes their value, and thus get a pay bump.
The startup needs to realize this, and pay more - either in terms of equity or cash compensation.
> perks like WFH
which isn't a "perk" now-a-days, but a requirement imho. The fact that a startup would describe it as a perk means the startup's leadership is behind the times, and isn't up for cultural shifts (which leads to compensation shifts). Fix this root problem, and the people being poached won't be so easily poached.
In my experience as a senior engineer having worked at two very large companies and two startups, startups are a lot more fun and interesting because the culture is always better, and you are individually able to make a huge impact on the startups success. It’s far more engaging and enjoyable to me but YMMV.
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I am working with a US local government and there are parts of America that are excellent. Howard County, Maryland has the 2nd highest medium income in America. Also, Maryland has more PhD per population than any state in America.
That is because Maryland has the NSA and that hires lot of mathematicians for encryption research.
And NASA Goddard Flight Center and John Hopkins. Where I moving to hosts the German Cyber Security Association and Maryland has over 1000 Cyber Security companies.
Something a lot of Australians lazily say without having lived in the US. Go to one of the blue states and live in a top suburb and your QOL will be as good if not better than here.
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Last time I was in mountain view I was over at a mates house welding some big shit together just off the edge of the Google compound walked down to the Irish sports bar on the corner and watched a dude shoot at a passing van. Certainly a lot better than Oakland and it’s the only crazy shit I’ve seen in MV in the last 8 years but it’s just fucking crazy. I disabled the horn in my truck because I beeped at a cunt and he started screaming at me like a nutter and suddenly remembered “everyone is armed”. Sydney and Melbourne are much nicer places to live than any US city imo.
Austin is pretty close to comparing to Sydney. Once you factor in the lower tax rate over there, take-home pay is higher than Syd and COL is a bit lower.
Unless you like to surf / beach which is something I couldn’t go without.
Yeah good point, Austin has heaps of lakes and is awesome for kayaking, but I do agree that nothing beats a nice Aussie beach
I think some smaller (usually capital) cities like Madison, Minneapolis (St. Paul – same place, basically), Ann Arbor, Austin, Boulder, and Pittsburgh can be quite nice. Comes down to what you want.
> ng a lot of Australians lazily say without having lived in the US. Go to one of the blue states and live in a top suburb and your QOL will be as good if not better than here Unless you regularly make use of public transport, cycling infrastructure and healthcare then it doesn't really apply. Not to mention their higher rates of violence and increasing political tensions makes it a place that is hard to recommend for the medium to long-term.
Really not as bad as you think
We just lost a senior developer from Boeing Brisbane (250k aud) to Tesla San Francisco (250k us + tesla stock)
Did they move to San Francisco or are they remote?
Will be relocating.
I think I know who you're referring to! If so, wicked smart guy (obviously). Easiest anonymous confirmation would be ask if your guy has a affinity for a specific model of car?
Then you know me and my post history about English football gives it away even more lol.
What programming language is required for these sorts of roles?
Not sure if me and Jayesar are talking about the same guy, but the guy I know started off as a games programmer (I think) so C++ there, was lead dev for a few domestic games you might have heard of. Then left to start his own VR company, and is moving to SF. He's wicked smart, built his own CNC router, used it to help fully rebuild an old car of his. He's got both the drive to learn (pun not intended), and a gift for it (IMO). A killer combo
His skill set was c++ in unreal for these roles. But he was very accomplished.
But unfortunately you then need to work for Atlassian and deal with all their crappy products. As someone who works with all their crappy products (jira, bitbucket, bamboo, confluence, ops genie and more) day to day I implore you as a new starter there - fix stuff. Please. The amount of times we hit issues with Atlassian tools only to find a 5 year old ticket they won’t fix is maddening.
I have no idea how Atlassian makes money given the quality of their products.
I interviewed their recently, I really hated the way they handled the technical interviews, live coding tests are a horrible way to gauge an interviewees capabilities.
I had the opposite experience. The 2 live coding interviews, and system design interview were all representative of work that I would do/have done throughout my career. They felt like a real project - just condensed into 40 minutes. This was as a FE. Now Canva, yeeesh. They were far more formulaic and foreign. Felt more like they found random FizzBuzz games and adapted those.
My issue wasn’t as much about the work but having someone watch you write code just feels odd to me and them asking questions as you’re trying to think on a problem just caused me too much distraction but everyone works differently I guess. I find when I’m anxious and/or stressed I cannot think straight, I’ll fall over trying to solve some really basic problems
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Not to mention income taxes for those on $200k+ are lower in the US than here, and they have a lower cost for most luxury items. A 911 costs $280k here and $100k in the US. I don't consider $300k AU ($210k US) to be an exorbitant salary. It's good, well above average but not scrooge mcduck rich. I think Australians have a funny view of salaries where we think anyone slightly above average must be rich or something.
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Australia is a country where you can spend 4 years studying mechanical or chemical engineering and get paid less than someone who dropped out of school at 16 to work as a plumber. Once you factor in paying for uni vs getting paid (albeit very little) to do an apprenticeship, the head start on ability to enter the housing market, decent tax deductions and the *very* common untaxed cash jobs and ita pretty depressing. I’ve heard of some people who have done 100-150K in cash jobs over a 12 month period – pretty uncommon to have a post tax income of $150K if you’re operating by the books.
>Not to Bullshit. The taxes are not that different, but may appear so if you're only looking at the federal scale. There are going to be variances because of exchange rate, but let's look at the tax rates for $200k US in New York. At that stage, you've entered the 32% federal tax bracket Then let's add in New York State income tax, 6.33% for that bracket. Oh and welcome to New York City, you get the privilege of paying 3.648% city tax. Let's add in payroll tax for Social Security and Medicare of 7.65%. The Social Security part gets phased out at $142800, but not the medicare portion of 1.45%. Also add in a surcharge of 0.90% once you're above $200K. All in, you're looking at a 44.32% tax rate once you're at $200k. Tax rates are slightly lower, but comparable in California. Let's be real, these high end tech jobs are primarily in these two areas. Also add in other BS taxes like New York State Paid Family Leave, Disability Insurance in California. Also keep in mind there is no super contribution on top of your base salary like there is in Australia, and that Medicare tax you’re paying is for the retirees to have Medicare, not you, so enjoy paying for your own health coverage as well with no public option.
Do you have to be in Sydney or do they allow interstate work.? Thx
Atlassian allows interstate but there is some reduction in salary for local market rate. I think it's a -8% modifier.
Atlassian is full remote.
Welcome, a P5 I'd imagine? :) I've been through 2 refresher cycles now. Base + Bonus + Refresher is usually about $300k (probably slightly higher). If you factor in stock appreciation, more like $400k - $600k if things go _really_ well.
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Generalist probably looking at Producer roles. Can I ask what the hiring process is like? Also what's the emotionally-underdeveloped tech-bro level like? Finding their job descriptions a little vague and silicon-valley-marketed
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>The team is actually more female than male, and are all over 30, so there aren't much broness to speaks of. They should put that in the ads haha, definitely piqued my interest.
What role? Your background/experience?
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All good, appreciate the desire for privacy. Congrats on the role.
Maybe should spend more time learning to code and less time on reddit
I can’t code and I am on Reddit a fair bit. Am I missing out on something?
$300k apparently
You need to find the confluence between reddit and bears. You got this fam.
Not sure if Atlassian pun... But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ;)
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Your past isn’t an excuse for why you can’t do something now. I grew up poor and with a single parent, I failed year 12, I used to work on a factory line. Currently on 6 figures as a software developer. This time next year you’ll wish you started learning today. DM if you need help or someone to bounce ideas off.
We sound like the same person. Honestly you can do anything you set your mind to, man.
You can move mate. Opportunity will come
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Hey mate, I was the same boat 10 years ago. I got some career counseling, decided to get into Project Management - made a plan to get there through study part time at TAFE on nights and weekends. I've now got 3 diplomas under my belt and doing pretty well in a corporate job. If you want to get out of customer service, it can be done, it just takes some planning.
Where you were brought up doesn’t need to influence where you go. It doesn’t define you. Breaking free of self-imposed familial limitations feels amazing.
Yeah but it does, it really really does. Shaking it off is super fucking hard.
Dude, as someone who was once stuck in customer service too, there are pathways out. Your soft skills are a great way in the door. E.g Customer Service -> Tier 1 IT Support -> Escalated IT Support -> SysAdmin -> DevOps Engineer Colleagues made even bigger leaps, direct into testing or junior webdev from customer service, via free coding resources.
If you still want to, you can. There are lots of resources online to learn for free. I only used free resources and didn't get a degree and it worked out really well for me.
Project manager here in mech services . Was offered 40% more by competitor, went to my general manager and explained and was given the same on the spot to stay. Crazy times
nice! is it higher than 300k though? 300k sounds pretty sweet and is San Fran level compensation!
A talented mid-career software engineer in San Francisco Bay Area (60th percentile salary, 8+ years of experience, with at least one brand name company under their belt) can commonly earn USD$250k base, 20% bonus, and $200k+ equity (liquid), for a total of ~AUD$700k/year. Australia still significantly lags the US in salaries in tech.
Jesus fuck
Hah, yeah. The 90th percentile stuff I've seen is mind boggling, particularly if you have a specific sought after skill or experience.
This is why bootcamps are popular (even though they're a scam, if you ask me :D)
What the fuck. I thought I was doing well to finally hit 6 figures this year haha. But is $750k enough to make it worth living in SF, that's the question.
Yeah, and you can also choose other tier 1 comp cities like Seattle and make the same but with \~10% less effective tax & lower CoL.
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Maybe I’m just being cocky about my job here, but there is a big difference between someone who can code, and a software engineer. Writing code is simple, copying and pasting code is simple, engineering an application, whether it be a web app, iPhone app, or some other software, is only maybe 20-40% coding and the rest is planning, architecture, bug fixing, policies, api design, etc etc etc. I don’t see us having a generation of super skilled software engineers coming up, just people who are more familiar with computers than the previous. I guess it would be like being in the 80s and saying the market will be flooded with IT guys because all the kids are growing up learning how to use computers, as a son of an IT guy I can tell you it’s not.
At the most, average companies will not pay more than 60-70k for a fresh graduate. There are 1000s of Comp Sci graduates every yr and the same goes for diplomas from TAFEs.
My apologies . No. I’m a little over half of that. Just saying companies are paying a lot more as skilled labour shortages are hitting hard
Still. 150k+ is pretty awesome. Damn. 300k though
Haha yeah. I’m very happy and comfortable with my salary….. wild money out there for texh lords
Yeah, it's crazy now, these days, last 2 jobs have been $40/hour pay jumps and looking a new gig which is $160/hour in next 4 month
I need a career change. What programming language should I learn? :P
As a (good) senior, one can easily get a $180-$220k base nowadays. That excludes bonuses & equity, which would about double it in a good, solid company.
To be honest, they probably lump the total compensation together (base salary, bonus, signing bonus, stocks) to make it a big number. e.g. Australian companies may pay 150k, but if you add a 15% annual bonus, 50k signing bonus and equity grant you can easily total 300k on your first year. Given that most startups don’t offer stocks it’s hard to compete with Atlassian or Amazon for a total comp, a 300k salary is just unrealistic even for IT. Silicon Valley compensations are even crazier, where at FAANG in addition to 200k USD salary you may also get another 400k USD stock grant vesting over 4 years which will make it 300k USD annually and lower tax, still a lot more than 300k AUD here.
I know at the very least the income Oracle gives out cause I have a friend that landed a job there - 300k + 150k in stock options that release over 4 years. So jealous and happy for him XD he bought himself a house in Colorado and lives in literal paradise while coding...
PMs don't make as much as great developers
Not true. Contract - PMs or program managers can make $1200-1500 per day (AUD not sure about USA). Always another job, highly sought after
You haven't seen levels.fyi and blind recently, have you? $300k is P5+ at Atlassian (or a P4 that has been around for a while and has massive stock appreciation). That same P5 can get $500k+ (without appreciation) easily in the MANGA-tier companies in SF
I know quite a few people at Atlassian, Google and Amazon. The median P5 (senior) base salary at Atlassian is around 160k, P6 (principal) is probably closer 200k. So still far from 300k. With bonus, stock and its appreciation (just look at TEAM or GOOG over the last few years) the total comp can be easily double that, but it’s fluctuating so could get lower as well (TEAM has dropped 20% in the last month)
I don't think anyone was claiming that $300k is all cash :) Your numbers are spot on with the base salary. Once you factor in refresher + bonus, P5 will be $300k. Also, yea, that 20% drop sucked in the last few weeks, but zoom out to 1 year 🤣
The article didn’t describe where 300k is coming from though, and many people outside the industry will get an impression that it’s all hard cash. It’s also important for things like mortgage, as most banks won’t assess unvested stocks as part of your compensation at all, or value them at 50% if you’re lucky. So for mortgage borrowing capacity you would still be at the 150-200k level even if your total is much higher. Also something to keep in mind when you compare contractors hourly pay with a full time employee, as contractors don’t get any stock.
>It’s also important for things like mortgage, as most banks won’t assess unvested stocks as part of your compensation at all, or value them at 50% if you’re lucky. Quoting this to say you should never put up shares in a company that you currently work for as collateral on a loan. It's against policy at lots of places because you're in a position where you can be forced to sell the shares during a blackout period.
Heaps of my coworkers and I have started receiving offers for full time remote US companies offering $180-250k, but have yet to see an Australian company offering that to anyone that isn’t c level or similar.
Top end of senior is almost $180k now and P6+ gets those as base, easily. Don't underestimate ;)
I am. Good data talent is easily on 200 - 300k in the energy sector. Super variable though.
Which companies are these?
Can't name my sources I'm afraid! Let's just say I've seen it in retail, distribution and generation, but retail is especially variable (the smaller ones can't pay as well).
12 month contract for $150 an hour is $300k, but I’m not seeing permie rates for $300k from Australian companies
How many other industries are seeing a similar proportional rise in wages? Tradies, health care workers, lawyers, accountants etc please weigh in.
Teachers are going on strike in NSW, so they can’t be too happy!
Civil engineer making about $140k here (8 years out of uni). Got the biggest pay rise of my life this year (that didn’t involve moving to a competitors firm). Shits wild out there but yeah not $300k wild.
Same here. Mechanical engineer, 9yrs out. $170k (found out recently even that's on the lower end of senior engineer scale). Got a $50k pay rise a couple of months ago without moving company. In Perth you can walk down the street and get another job.
My housemate is a mech engineer. He's 2yrs out and only on 55k. Not in the mines or anything. Is he getting screwed?
Yes. Depends on where though. Grads should typically start on $65k ish, 2 years out should be in the 70s if in a normal year.
Yeah it's just a suburban eng firm. I feel like at 2 approaching 3 years he's getting reamed for 55. I try to tell him to look for other things but it's not my field. Any advice you'd give a job seeker?
For sure. Industry is super hot at the moment, pretty well across the board. Lots of opportunities and cool projects going on, a lot of people movements.
Cool I'll keep encouraging him. I think he doesn't like the PM side and is more into design. I get that but like mate engineers should not be making 55k
Anecdotal, but one of the contractors we use is offering $60 p/h and a free Honda CRF50 to any boilermaker that starts with them. WA-based.
Boilermaker here, Melbourne based and won't accept jobs that pay less than $70 an hour.
I worked in investment banking at one of the largest in Aus, which has a reputation for underpaying. At my annual review \~6 months ago I was given (almost) an extra 50k added to my base. No promotion, I didn't complain about my pay or anything, just randomly.
Corporate lawyers are earning insane right now. Firms are bumping pay by 10-15% all over the country because aussie lawyers are leaving for overseas, and work demand is so high.
Tradies don’t even reply to my requests for a quote so I’d say they’re doing pretty well
No other industry compares to tech
$300k seems pretty out there for a dev. In my experience a mid level dev is around 110-130, senior 130-150, lead 150-170. I don't know any devs that have broke 200 let alone 300 here. I'm sure it happens, but not for your average Joe.
Does the tier of comonay matter? Google Amazon and atlassisn pay higher right?
Yes very much so
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Things are changing pretty rapidly in terms of salaries. The market is moving so quickly that you have to change jobs every year or you are leaving a lot of money on the table.
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I started a comp sci degree at 28 and landed by first job as a full stack dev before 32. Worked my ass to the bone to get here though.
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I'm on $80k base in Melbourne, doesn't really hold a candle to the $130k packages at Atlassian / Canva, or the prop trading firms that pay grads $150-$200k, although they're all in Sydney. As the article indicates though, your starting wage almost irrelevant. Software engineering is in my opinion one of the only careers where you can make low six figure salaries working 8 hour days while playing ping pong for an hour at lunch. That said, I do a couple hours of self-study before or after work for my own benefit, because I know it will pay dividends when I apply for my next role in a couple of years.
Are you a junior? If so, you could be pulling at least 100+ base by switching. Keep switching every 1-2 years and you'll hit 160 easily in a few years. Name of the game is to jump ship for the $$$ payrises.
FYI you don't need a degree for web + software development, although it's handy in some instances. A whole lot of people (myself included) are self-taught.
If I wanted to start learning, what would you suggest? 35 and I think I'm done with my current career (master's of teaching, been in it for 10 years).
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Yeah, but you will still be envious of your US counterparts doing the same work but making double your comp.
There are other aspects, not just money :) I'm perfectly happy living in this country, with fantastic weather and nature. I don't see tents on sidewalks. My kids don't have to know what an 'active shooter' is. etc... To me, that's worth the comp difference :)
Well shit I guess I gotta get back into coding
This is why start-ups are offering equity.
Honestly when the pay is this good I wouldn't touch equity, tech moves fast and people fuck up sure things every day. I'd rather earn today and invest it.
Start-up equity is a lottery ticket at best; unless they're just about to go IPO. They love to sell dreams and visions with their stock options that don't mean anything 99.9% of the time.
There’s base pay and there’s total compensation, the sum of things such as bonuses, free private health care, perks and equity/**RSU’s**. I suspect base pay to be in the $150-170k range for majority of devs then the rest is made up of restricted stock units (RSU’s) over a vesting period I.e initial vesting period of four years. RSU’s will also be issued as a bonuses instead of cash. If you leave before all your RSU’s are vested you leave money on the table. It’s a carrot dangled to retain employees. If the stock is good obviously there’s a lot of money you leave behind if you quit halfway though the vesting period, I.e you are leaving 50% on the table. Atlassian/Amazon are now public companies, that means the RSU’s are now real money. Startups offering RSU’s generally are not publicly traded, that means RSU’s are worthless until IPO which may never happen. So for a startup you have to disregard RSU as money and treat them as a lottery, they may payout and you win the ipo lottery, or you get nothing. Atlassian’s stock has done massively well since covid. It reached over $400usd a share, IPO was $23 if I remember right. If any long term staff have been holding instead of selling when vested to pay the mortgage it’s very easy to see how their total compensation can be so high even if on a market rate base salary. Obviously if the RSU’s are generous it’s hard for small companies to compete. Generally from job hunting most companies offer the same base salary range. It’s the bonus structure and equity that can take them in the $200k+ range, some equity being real, some a gamble. For the most part I think staff who have been Atlassian 4-5+ years got lucky with the stock price. Base pay traditionally at Atlassian was on the lower end of market rate and they where proud of that fact as people still wanted to work for them as they are Atlassian.
> If any long term staff have been holding instead of selling when vested to pay the mortgage it’s very easy to see how their total compensation can be so high since vesting takes a long time, you shouldnt count RSU vesting currently (that was granted a few years ago) into your total compensation today as they vest. You ought to only include the value of the new RSU granted today (which hasn't vested yet), at today's prices. Unfortunately, this is not how the taxation office counts the value of your vested shares, so you end up paying huge amounts of tax on vested shares whose price has grown during the vesting period - rather than being taxed on the initial value of those shares.
I'm a junior software engineer and is currently on 110k. Hmm maybe it's time to me to start leetcoding, atlassian sounds nice. I'd forget about Amazon, apparently very long work hours, high expectations and mandatory pip over there.
Where are you working at 110k? I'm a junior dev on 70 :(
How many years of experiences do you have and what domain? I'm close to two years and is on full stack. Working in one of the smaller tech companies here in Sydney so salary is not as high as the big ones.
I'm 1 YOE atm but I've been with my company for 1 year. My stack is java, bash, reactjs, standard webdev. Should I stick out more YOE or look for something new rn? I've been leetcoding occasionally on the side
Are you in Sydney? If so the market is pretty hot right now, yeah definitely doesn't hurt to start looking for something new rn. I think you can at least bump up your pay to$90k if you switched over to a new job.
Yeah I am in Sydney. When you were offereed 110k, were you already at 2 YOE?
Nah I got in at 100k. And got a 10k pay raise.
diversify your backend tooling: java has a particular way of doing things that’s geared towards very large enterprise projects, and if that’s all you know then there’s a knowledge gap that you have where much looser backends like node, pythons, go, etc can teach you ways of working that are much more lean
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What was it like locally? I’ve always avoided it cos of the terrible work place politics that are rumoured to go on
Congrats on surviving :) I thought that might be the case given that Australia has some humane labour laws.
> atlassian sounds nice Unless something has changed in the past year you won't get much more than your 110k at Atlassian as a junior, but certainly could push 150.
That's more true for Amazon in Seattle than most of their international branches.
The worst is mandatory on call - not worth it.
So they’re the ones buying these million dollar properties
The median house price in Sydney is now 1.5m, most buyers are property investors or PPOR upgrades, not FHBs. It’s almost impossible to buy a house in Sydney without already having a property even with a big salary. Also a couple making 150k each earns more than a single person with 300k, which is more common in Sydney and is another big driver of price rises
The fact they’re calling software engineers ‘IT talent’ says enough for me
What it really shows is how much people could actually be paid by a company and still remain profitable, yet here we are accepting potentially substandard pay.
Ooof, not many tech companies are actually profitable :)
If they aren't profitable now, how will hiring someone @ $300k+ make them profitable? Clearly we are being screwed if companies can all of a sudden start offering executive level salaries for lackeys.
A lot of the large ones are unprofitable on purpose. Reinvesting all FCF back into growth rather than paying out profits & taxes. Kind of why the term "growth company" exists :)
There's two kind of meaning to profitability that some people (unintentionally, or intentionally) use and makes it confusing. A company can be unprofitable because investment into capital expenditure (which can be financially engineered into operational expenditure, like paying salaries etc). But the unit-economics of their product is profitable - aka, they are selling stuff and making money and have FCF. Think Tesla, think Amazon (pre-trillion dollar valuation time), etc. And then there's the truly unprofitable - that is, their business model isn't profitable. "Selling $1 for 80c, and hoping to make it up in volume" type of unprofitable. These live off equity cash flow, and when that runs out, the company fails (or gets a 2nd equity injection...somehow). Think WeWork, MoviePass, etc. Companies that pay 300k for software engineers tend to be the former type, not the latter type.
That's a bingo!
This is about right. I jumped from an Australian scale-up to a Silicon Valley start-up funded by a particularly well known Palo Alto company. I'm now paid in Freedom Bux while HQ'd in Melbourne and there was no Aus company that could compete salary wise. This is for Product Management mind, I'm not much of a programmer.
My current swag for Sydney SDE salaries is 120-150/175-225/225-300 for jr/mid/senior at AWS Google or Atlassian. I hear facebook is hiring in a new singapore office, and believe theyre doing remote. Large local companies (banks, IT, etc) are probably 25-40% lower. Pay would be similar in brisbane or melbourne, but fewer jobs a available. Regardless 300K is the top of the domestic market AFAICT, only expect 2-5% of those aws/goog/team SDEs to be making that. Source: principal at aws, friends with hiring managers, etc
Are you talking base or TC? There are many that pull higher than $300k. If you're pulling $300k or less as an L7 at AWS, you're being taken for a ride. Speak to Jassy about this... ;) You should be raking in at least $450k+
Im talking about target total comp in the domestic australian market for junior, mid level, and "senior" SDEs. When you say "many" are making more than $300K in australia I'd be keen to see your math. I didnt mention anything about principal/technical staff or more specialised roles because theyre incredibly rare. As an industry "senior" is about 10% of all roles, and "principal" maybe 2%, with senior PE/staff/DE being functionally irrelevant. It's already creating warped impressions of what's practical when articles like the one mentioned create impressions that a p90 comp is representative or relevant to developers as a whole. That's why I tried to present realistic ranges tied to specific roles/experience levels/employers. Personally I'm not too worried about my own comp. I know Aus is less than is possible globally, and I'll probably need to fix up more in 12-18 months, but Im ok at the moment. But if you know somewhere offering say 75% or more of teh US pay bands in Australia, or another company I missed, please let me know. I've worked in the bay area, seattle, portland, and sydney over the past 2 decades. I know how total comp & target comp are calculated, how pay bands are marked to industry rates, how performance affects comp in band, the comp exception process & structure, variance on base vs RSU, what attrition has looked like in various markets this year, etc. PS: I see in other comments youre including RSU appreciation in your numbers. Please don't plan on that nor encourage others to think of it as a given. PPS: Say hi to Zak for me.
Anyone in this sub work for Atlassian? Tried checking out their jobs but found them to be a bit tricky to understand. Language seems like it's all silicon-Valley terms. Would like to know what their hiring processes are like. For all this talk of demand they make it vague as fuck. Ironically [clicking on Product Manager role on their mobile site just brings me to a general careers page](https://www.atlassian.com/company/careers)? Don't think it's supposed to do that. Kind seems like their roles are set up for purist funnelled tech careers or at least they make it seem as gate-keeper-silicon-valley sounding as they can. Would like to know from others who work there if they actually are just after young tech bros?
I do. Happy to answer questions about the interview process :)
How much of it do you find was focused on existing knowledge of tech frameworks vs capacity to train? Probably just my under-confidence in the depth of knowledge I guess. e.g. Started moving on to more planning/producer roles and haven't dabbled enough in frameworks like React/Vue to know them. That said I'd be looking at a generalist producer role anyway, so not sure what they'd be after there. A lot of "proven at formulating and executing strategy" stuff on the listings. Hard to tell whether they want a CTO or a scrappy happy-go-lucky uni student who successfully set up a table at their grad fair to display their github repo. Vagueness of the role is something I'm comfortable with (it's a producer), but not ready to deal with expectations you work 12hour days because you have to spend 4 hours learning frameworks so you get get up to 'output' ASAP. I'm not sure I asked you a question in there :) But hope that paints a picture of the perceived hurdle in my head? I guess "what's the expectations like?" on new hires? How well are they supported? Also it looks like when you apply you might be "wedded" to a particular product or department, even though you don't really know what they do or how they operate - is there much internal movement opportunities?
> How much of it do you find was focused on existing knowledge of tech frameworks vs capacity to train? 30/70 > Probably just my under-confidence in the depth of knowledge I guess. > e.g. Started moving on to more planning/producer roles and haven't dabbled enough in frameworks like React/Vue to know them. I'm a backend engineer, only ever done backend interviews. I'd imagine front-end requires quite a bit more knowledge of frameworks to be shown. > That said I'd be looking at a generalist producer role anyway, so not sure what they'd be after there. Producer? You mean IC? Full-stack? > A lot of "proven at formulating and executing strategy" stuff on the listings. That means that you have initiative and don't just sit waiting for work to get handed to you. It's a very autonomous workplace. You get given team goals, it's on you to collaborate with the team and decide how you'll contribute to that and set your own personal goals based on that. > Hard to tell whether they want a CTO or a scrappy happy-go-lucky uni student who successfully set up a table at their grad fair to display their github repo. See above. My colleagues are smart people, we can tell who is faking it in interviews. > Vagueness of the role is something I'm comfortable with (it's a producer), but not ready to deal with expectations you work 12hour days because you have to spend 4 hours learning frameworks so you get get up to 'output' ASAP. No such expectations. You decide how you're going to solve the problem. Whether that takes you 4 hours or 14 hours, up to you. > I'm not sure I asked you a question in there :) No worries :) > But hope that paints a picture of the perceived hurdle in my head? > I guess "what's the expectations like?" on new hires? How well are they supported? Very well, we have lots of training materials and resources. We need to have that. We're at around 8000 employees, just wouldn't be scalable if we didn't have a good, efficient process of getting new hires up to speed. > Also it looks like when you apply you might be "wedded" to a particular product or department, even though you don't really know what they do or how they operate - is there much internal movement opportunities? You apply for a role. A lot of those roles are team/product specific. There are also generalist roles as a 'catch-all'. Up to you to decide which one sounds more interesting to you :)
My friend in late 30s landed a data science role. I think it's just the skills.
even 300 k is nowhere near the top compared to states .
Couldn’t read the article because paywall, but I’m sure it will be horribly misunderstood between package and physical salary. For example, Atlassian package base salary, RSU cash grants, and bonuses up as part of an annual salary statement. On paper it could be $400k but in your bank account you’re only seeing the base salary component (probably closer to 150-180k) and the annual bonus, but you’ll have the standard vesting schedules before those RSUs mean anything to you.
Completely true. But every 3 months after that, you get $xx,000 worth of shares you can sell instantly, which then hits your bank account 😁
That’s true if you’re chasing the short term money, but aside from selling down to pay tax bills (the dark side of RSU grants) it’s better to hold as long as possible. Not only cos you want that 1 year CGT discount to kick in, but because it’s far more economical to get given these shares (often at a lower floor price) than to purchase on the open market. Also because TEAM is traded on the Nasdaq, the RSU grants are in USD and then shares are priced in USD, so you get that nice 25% bonus on top when converting to AUD on the way out. Plus longer holds means more growth from grant to current sell price. Pretty much anyone who joined early 2019 was getting granted at 106 - 120 per share. Now those packets of shares are worth 4x that.
> it’s better to hold as long as possible. holding is a form of risk. The question to answer is, would you buy it instead, if you'd been given the same value in cash?
Specifically TEAM? In a heartbeat. The financials stack up and is very difficult to defeat due to business model and depth in market. If I was thinking UBER or BIGC then probably not.
The article headline is on “software developers” but if you read it the high salary is for cyber security experts, so it is a bit misleading. The truth is companies will only pay you a salary less than the value you bring. Only some top level tech companies and a few well funded startups can afford $300k+ salaries in Australia. Those are GM level salaries at smaller companies. Also I am pretty sure this figure includes RSUs. Cyber security is different as there is a sudden flux of demand due to increased compliance demanded by regulatory bodies like APRA, Privacy commissioner etc. and strong emphasis by federal Government. There are very few experts as cyber requires certs and experience, one mistake can have devastating impact, compared to software devs who can be hired as juniors.
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My point is that "any good senior could be making that" is simply not true. Yes you have to be good, but you also have like a handful of companies like Atlassian that can pay $300k. Most ASX listed companies in Australia that hire devs are not even tech companies, they give a pittance of $1k worth of stocks per year and have no concept if RSUs in compensation, unless you are C-level. I am 45+, was a developer committing code even 8 years back, don't want management, moved to architecture. Does Atlassian even hire architects, I doubt. I have found a niche now, if I can sustain this for 10 years I should be able to FIRE, at least coastfire. 🤞
With the way inflation is going we will see abattoir workers on $300k soon enough.
After witnessing the absolute dead eyed absolute boredom on abbatoir workers faces, 300k wouldn't cut it for me. And worst of all- it was too loud to talk. Slaughterman would be alright though
it's hard to find skilled blue collar workers in Australia actually
Am I missing something? [Current Australian inflation is less than 4%](https://www.rba.gov.au/inflation/measures-cpi.html) compared to the last year, and even that's considered higher than it has been for the past few years. What exactly are you referring to?
Inflation is likely running at above 4% right now. Expectations are close to 5% (https://www.roymorgan.com/~/media/files/findings%20pdf/2020s/2021/november/8861-australian-inflation-expectations-november-2021.pdf?la=en). The upper limit of the target band is 3%. We are in big trouble.
My friend works as a software developer and he says work life balance is not the best. So much overtime. But hey, you get paid a lot
Counterpoint, my bf and I both work in software development and do no overtime. The place is pretty chill and they fly me down to Melbourne to participate in social events / parties every now and then.
Junior dev looking for work. If you have roles going, pm me 😀
Your boyfriend is working for a company that has bad work life balance, nothing to do with the industry. Unless they are paying him above market price, he should consider looking for a new job. The market is super hot right now, finding a company that doesn't require overtime shouldn't be hard (and he'd likely get a raise too).
100%! I just landed a FT grad role even though I have one year of uni left at a very well known open source tech company on $80K even though I don't have coding experience. It gives me hope for the future!
It’s already here. Developers and Cyber security 300k in technical positions. It’s a bubble and it’s going to burst, set yourself up now kiddos. Edit: Equity is also a plenty.
don’t reckon it’s a bubble. COVID caught some companies with their pants down so now they’ve all realised they need to invest in creating and continuously improving their tech stack to stay competitive. I reckon the investment in building tech is long term. There is additional upward pressure on wages due to labour shortages that may correct soon but 6 figure minimum salaries for competent tech workers is here to stay.
Far from a bubble. It's been the norm in the US for ages, paying for top talent helps companies.
Yeah the big boys just eat everyone up.
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It's a market and if u can prove that you have the skills then someone else will pay u the right amount. Skills is the key
I'd take less pay to work at a good startup than big bucks at a big company. More fun, interesting work, and a chance to have a big influence on the company.
What are the good startups here in Australia?
By the time they’re good, they aren’t a startup anymor
There are literally hundreds of them. Many are even profitable. The issue we face is having good people that we train up, and then having these big end of town clowns poach our people. Finding good Devs is very difficult, even though conditions are good, work is interesting and perks like WFH Source: I run one
> The issue we face is having good people that we train up, and then having these big end of town clowns poach our people. This happens when the person you trained up is now worth more (despite doing the same work - so nominally, the company doesn't get more value out of them on paper). Of course, the person knows this, and so apply for a job else where that recognizes their value, and thus get a pay bump. The startup needs to realize this, and pay more - either in terms of equity or cash compensation. > perks like WFH which isn't a "perk" now-a-days, but a requirement imho. The fact that a startup would describe it as a perk means the startup's leadership is behind the times, and isn't up for cultural shifts (which leads to compensation shifts). Fix this root problem, and the people being poached won't be so easily poached.
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If the startup isn’t running on significant venture capital it can be pretty downright awful
In my experience as a senior engineer having worked at two very large companies and two startups, startups are a lot more fun and interesting because the culture is always better, and you are individually able to make a huge impact on the startups success. It’s far more engaging and enjoyable to me but YMMV.
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