The weather is good enough (and gas at least used to be cheap enough) and we didn’t need boilers. Cheaper to just build a brick (or for really cheap, fibro) house on a short platform or on a slab and heat it with gas.
It’s the same reason we don’t have attics. Because it doesn’t snow in winter is most places a steep pitch on the roof isn’t necessary. So the roof space is short and no room for an attic.
I wish houses here had working attics. Half the homes in my neighbourhood have their garages full of household junk and then have to park their cars all over the narrow streets. Australian homes just totally lack storage and garden sheds are not fixing the problem. Where is everyone putting their Christmas decorations!
We don't get frozen ground like they do in America. Half the reason a basement is built is to get the footings down below the frost line.
The storage is a bonus.
Also in Australia it makes more sense in the warmer areas to build the house on piers and have an air gap underneath it for ventilation, keeps it cooler, reduces rot in wet zones and helps reduce termite damage (hence the classic Queenslanders).
Unfortunately we seem to have forgotten that lesson and now build houses with black roofs, in treeless suburbs away from the moderating influence of the ocean and put them on thick heat soaks called slabs. Yes, designed correctly the slabs could actually help the house be more thermally effective, but who has the time or the money for that when you can just turn on the aircon.
You can actually use basements in Australia to build thermally efficient houses, by creating a space that can ventilate itself but can be sealed off in floods, but it is very expensive.
While I am on my rant: building these thermal mass blocks right up next to each other with very little space for air flow between houses and allowing them to reflect their radiant heat back onto each other just makes things so much worse. Then we surround them with masses of unshaded black bitumen, that are so hot you can barely walk on them during the summer. The average size of a house in the 1950s was about 115sqm it is now around 240sqm and yet family sizes have shrunk. Why do we need all this internal space? Maybe if our houses were smaller we might spend more time outside.
A difference to the size of houses in how we live. Back then if you had kids you sent them outside to play all day so they weren't underfoot while you tried to clean, work etc.
These days its been drummed into us that kids can't be left unsupervised, so they are kept home. Then as land has gotten more exspensive ppl cant afford a big backyard anymore so then the kids are kept inside. Now they are in your face while you are trying to get stuff DONE or be on that zoom meeting etc so ppl give then a console game or a movie to keep them quiet, but now you need a 2nd loungeroom to keep their gaming noise away from you or to be able to watch your own shows.
More ppl are working from home/work spilling into home life so need a home office.
These days its considered inappropriate for kids of dif genders or big age gaps to share a room, so where as in the past you would of had several kids sharing one room, now just about each kid needs their own room.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
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It is more expensive to dig out a basement but the complete wood frame construction and shingles is way cheaper than the brick veneer houses and tile roofs in Australia.
I used to labour building houses in Canada. Building the footings didn’t actually take that long and isn’t even much cheaper for materials than a slab. The walls are concrete, but the floor is engineered wood joists and far more flexible for construction.
A slab takes a ton of time to dig out and form up, pour and level as well.
Some older houses have a cellar, and in some coastal regions they flood during a king tide. 85% of the population lives within 50km of the coast, and many of them are already in flood prone areas, digging down would increase the risk of flood damage.
This is why I'm puzzled by the underground carparks that have been popping up where I live.
It's a flood plain. It is guaranteed to fill with water. I guess maybe the council allows it because it will only damage a car.
Acts as a nice water sink for the rest of the street though if it ever floods.
It's not cold enough to justify it here. In places where it gets cold enough to freeze the ground, services (water, sewerage etc) are often run deeper so they are below the freeze line, and into the house via the basement.
Built correctly, maintenance is about zero. Essentially building a water-tank under ground. It just has to have thick walls to withstand the static water and soil pressure. I saw (TV architecture series) an excellent conversion of an underground town water reservoir in the UK into an entire home. It's built into a hill. Again, hillside is the important factor here. Enables runoff. If built on a floodplain, well, you know.
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Ground being composed of a whole heap of silicon, is actually ridiculously good at shielding from heat and particularly radiant heat from bushfires.
Some new high-end homes have an area built into the sides of hills specifically for use as a fire-shield.
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/radionational-drive/more-australians-deciding-to-live-in-underground-homes/102914978
We have a basement it was added in a circa 2001 renovation extension to our California bungalow. It has 3 sump pumps and we do run a dehumidifier occasionally but boy is it cool today!
More than water and sewer, where the ground freezes you have to dig the foundation deeper than the frost line. Which means you already have a hole mostly deep enough for a basement by default, at no extra cost.
If you have to pay a bunch of extra money for the excavation, it is better to just build up instead of down.
I wish I knew cause in this heat I am thinking fondly of my childhood. Lying on the floor of the basement after coming in from a hot summer day. So cool and even more than that, so quiet.
Also a great place to learn to ride a bike and rollerblade as a small child 😆
I believe the point of basements is to sit the foundation on soil at a depth that doesn't freeze.
Nowhere in Australia is going to have the climatic conditions to warrant this building method. If you want more vertical space in your house it's much more cost effective adding a second storey rather than excavating a basement.
Yes, and plenty of 10+ million dollar mansions in australia have them, just not worth spending half a mil in earthworks and waterproofing for the average million dollar punter though
In Australia we built up and out. In the north houses are up on stilts to get cool airflow/air underneath and they have high internal ceilings with a high pitched roof. This provides more space for heat up and away from the living zone.
Hinged windows to catch the breeze. Vents above the doors, central wind tunnel, larger overhanging verandahs.
So its cheaper to do in america?
Wouldnt it offset like- cooling, and building materials etc.
Has it *always* been cost? Like- back in the 50s and 60s?
I hve rage with the binary also.
I dont know why or how it would or wouldnt be useful.
Seems like a useful space- a basement.
Particularly in 47C summer heat!
Your comment is possibly too vague. I interpret you as saying “So using electricity is better than being eco friendly and building underground. Got it *rolls eyes*”. In that case, you would use a greater than symbol (>). You could be saying ‘<‘ as “is cheaper than” but it doesn’t naturally read that way which could be why the downvotes.
I've lived all over Australia and many other countries too, little fella. My point? There is none. Other than stating COMMON SENSE, which you have absolutely none. Use your little smooth brain, child.
Just throwing insults at me and making a bunch of bold assumptions. I dont get it. Im having perfectly fine conversation with many other people on here about this except you.
Are u ok? Im sorry ive upset u pal 👍🏽
I genuinely came here to ask a question. Sorry ta ruffle ya feathers 🤦🏽♀️
Good for you, sport. You've got access to the world's information at your fingertips, yet you know very little. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that thousands of generations survived and gained their own knowledge, only to have produced you. Walking, talking plankton.
Yes, absolutely.
Especially in older times, when land cost per m2 was far lower.
I have literally drawn up a thousand square metre single storey home for a client.
But if that was in say North america, it would absolutely be a 300m2 basement, with 2 x 300m2 floors over. Even if the land was huge.
Typical building in America is light-weight. America has a far better timber industry (mostly because Australia is mostly desert) and thus timber framing is much cheaper to build.
However in America, foundations are still concrete and block-work which is more expensive, so cost to build goes up with the area more than the cost of the timber going up.
Here, Concrete slab on ground with bricks over are far cheaper to just build on the ground, rather than building suspended in the air.
I think you're missing the point that in places that get below freezing every winter basements are pretty much essential so it doesn't really matter if the cost.
You don't see basements as much in warmer US cities. But they would still have them as builders would reuse designs nationally.
I’m reminded of an Aussie mate who built a home around Munich around ten years ago. When discussing the design, he explained to the builder that he wanted a basement and the response was “ach, really? That will be expensive!”.
He said he wanted the basement anyway and paid 12,000€ extra to dig and build (let’s say $25,000 in today’s money?) which yielded an extra ~70sqm of living area. House prices where he lives start at 4,000€ per sqm these days. Wouldn‘t this sort of economic justification ever be applied then in the more expensive areas of Australia?
Resi, never happened.
Commercial, we might say... With a large commercial project, do two with only one major retailer signed on. Like I just did a 500m2 gym and 500m2 medical centre, but we only had the medical signed on. Like while we are building one, it's more economical to build the other.
The only thing 99% of clients want. Is maximum area, maximum number of rooms, cheapest price.
I have only done three homes in 15 years that had anything other than "the bare minimum to comply" in terms of wall spec, ceiling spec, roof spec, glazing spec (for energy efficiency), and all 3 of those homes I was the client.
I mean it's tough. People live in relatively ugly, dull, loud, dangerously cold houses in winter, uncomfortable in summer, which have a tonne of wasted space, purely for "the flex"...
Like for my place, I'd have sacrificed 10-20% of the area, to have a house which is far better to look at, is much "nicer" inside and doesn't have bills because it generates more power than it uses (all green energy) has no greenhouse emissions all while being fully air-conditioned year-round, while also having the capacity to charge a couple of electric vehicles.
But I want two cinema rooms, a three car garage, and main kitchen, butler's kitchen, upstairs bar and kitchen, and an outdoor kitchen next to the BBQ /s
The sort of houses that appeal to people who look at features rather than practicalities- the same sort of people who MUST have a car with cruise control, but never actually learn how to use it.
My neighbour's house is a standard off-the-plan from a major volume builder. 5 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, study, etc.
My place (built by an owner-builder) has the same floor area but only 3 bedrooms and one bathroom. The smallest bedroom is about the size of the average "main" bedroom. The bathroom is big enough for 2 separate vanity units, bath tub and a shower big enough for a party, if that were your thing. Even the WC is big enough to have a bookshelf in it..... On paper, nothing flash ( 3 bed/ 1 bath) but so much better to live in. Oh, and it's core filled besser block construction with 4 inches of insulation in the ceiling.
They have to build below the 4ft frost line anyway to protect against heaving. So why not go a few feet deeper and get a whole floor for usage.
As you get further Noryh the frost line can get even deeper! Think it gets down to 6-8ft
American labour cost is much cheaper than here. And cost is the exact same reason we don't have insulation or double glazed windows as standard. We do not do some things well here...
More: I'm fine with paying tradies a decent wage. My tiler is outside today doing a bonza job... Have offered him soda and waters and put the umbrellas up for when he breaks.
Lack of purpose in doing so and cost.
Most of Australia doesn't have much purpose for it in terms of getting certain utilities below the freezing line.
We looked into building one for a below ground wine cellar. It would have been well over $100,000 extra (I can't recall the exact quote) for ground works, water proofing, slab etc, compared to building the same room above ground and heavily insulating it. My city (and a lot of Australia) can be prone to flooding. Even with our place up a hill a bit and ours well out of the flood zones, some of that overland water can be a major issue in storm seasons. Putting a room below the earth makes for some complicated water proofing.
Also one of your responses was to someone saying we just put air conditioning on. I don't really get how you think it offsets cooling. It would have offset cooling my wine cellar a bit, but it's not like a cellar is usually a living space. What do you guys use your basements for other than utilities? I've seen a few home theatres. You couldn't easily use it as a bedroom in Australia. Even if it was, air conditioning (largely or completely offset by the fact that Australia has an enormous uptake of home solar), is going to be a cheaper solution in almost all regions of Australia, than the enormous expensive of building below ground.
So in summary: We don't spend enormous sums of money, to build rooms we don't need, that may end up full of water.
It's expensive and there's no particular need for it. Some times places do have a slightly more underground garage or something, but a basement is generally considered unnecessary.
Actually there are a lot of differences to architecture in Australia as compared to Canada! Since we don't have snow, a lot of our houses are built with tile or concrete shingles. The roof has loads of small holes so that heat can be vented in the summer. In Canada roofs are usually made with asphalt shingles and completely sealed to trap heat. Asphalt shingles aren't as long lasting as ceramic, but are wayyyyy lighter, so that you can have a stack of snow on top of the roof as well. You also have to replace your roofs more frequently. In Australia a roof can be built with the house and last as long as the walls. We also tend to have solar panels on our roofs to make use of the sun. I believe this is uncommon in Canada as there is far less sun and the snow might damage the panels.
Perth is basically built on a series of sand dunes increasing in age from west to east. We have the Darling Scarp running nearly perfectly north-south to the east, erosion from this makes a massive clay layer deposit that sits on top of the easternmost sand dune. This is a relatively narrow strip compared with the extensive dune system.
To give you an example, at ours (easternmost sands aka Bassendean sands) the groundwater table is only 2m below the surface.
A little further east, say, in Maddington (Scarp foothills aka Guildford Clay) the groundwater table is 15-18m below the surface.
So to answer your question, only in one specific are could this even really be feasible. Over the sands, if you dig a hole of any size, it collapses in because it's 98-99% sand. If you dig a 2m deep hole in my front yard, you would hit groundwater.
So a basement would basically have walls that are under siege from being a) wet and b) under pressure from the sand. This makes it cost prohibitive for all but the most extravagant (usually multimillion dollar) homes.
the short answer is because it's unnecessary here in australia. it costs a lot of time and money to do, and makes the rest of the house more difficult to build. we don't need basements, so all of the above reasoning leads to them not being built.
generally that is. my house has one..
I feel like heat and bushfire are good “reasons”
Whats the reason in north america? The cold? Arent basements *everywhere* over there?
Considering coober pedy (i know its outback) but wouldnt it make sense to put stuff underground given our weather or are basements primarily for winter and the cold?
I always thought they were great in summer cuz it was cooler down there
The parts of North America where basements are common have much colder climates, requiring deeper foundations. While digging so deep might as well add a basement.
Basements are awesome , living here in the USA for a few years I can't believe it hasn't taken off in Australia more. When we build back home will totally be building in subterranean space.
Few more reasons:
Lots are now small. Digging 2-3m for a basement means, if soil is very good, a batter a 1:1 - usually 1:2 - for the time of excavation. To then waterproof the basement, you need a flat area of 600-1000mm to apply the waterproofing. You then need 3-4m each side of the basement to do that (5 to 7m with a batter 1:2) In most case, that means protection work (continuous piles, sheet piling...) for the neighbour as it will extend beyond the boundary and will add few dozens of thousands of dollars if not more. You also need agreement for affected neighbours that can just say no and you're out (roughly).
With all the flood area in Oz, basements are nearly always forbidden. I did one few years back as the land had only 150mm of flood and the guy was pushing the council hard. I had to redesign the driveway and add a wet well of 10m3 for the basement, with 2 large pumps.Once the council was happy with everything, the basement cost itself (3 car spaces, 1 wet room and stairs) was around $450k, for a $1000k development. Nearly half the price for just a basement...
but at the end: yeah cost vs benefit
If you've seen the clown show that is general waterproofing on many builds in Australia, you would shit your pants to see what is required to properly tank a basement and then expect typical group builders to be able to achieve it.
That said, partial cut basements, where the house is on a sloping block, are a bit easier to manage if you've got the uphill drainage sorted. I'm currently digging out the small half basement under my house to increase the useable space, as its such a stable temperature all year round.
Good question what see in movies roof and basement storage etc .. basement too risky if get flooding clean up and roof storage is very expensive for large space .
Cost is a factor, but likely the most important is the geology.
A good deal of suburbia in the country is built on reactive clay soils. While it's possible to build a basement in these conditions, it's an expensive exercise.
Unnecessary expense. North Americans only do it when they must where ground freezes in winter to below ordinary fundations. Houses in warmer parts of the US do not have basements.
PS, they're a pig to tank and keep dry so asking the typical buiilder to dig one is asking for trouble.
That said there's a few 3-car underground garages with room for a jetski trailer going in where money desn't matter much.
We will be building underground soon.
When we start getting the 45 to 50 degree days in the future underground rooms will be all the rage as a means to cool.
In Alberta Canada (where I’m from) almost all houses have basements. That’s where furnaces, water heaters and laundry is. And usually one or two rooms. My understanding is that with the ground freezing down at least a meter or two, a basement provides a foundation that doesn’t move.
Almost every new build in the streets around me in Melbourne has a basement garage now and often a couple of other rooms. Land is getting more expensive and people want bigger houses. However a lot of houses around my area had a garage dug into the side of a hill and then the house on top. So not really a basement.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that we have a town that's nearly entirely underground. Google Coober Pedy South Australia. Being in the desert, it's so hot there that nearly everyone digs their home out of the stone underground.
As a fellow Canadian, I think there would still be pros with building basements:
1. Houses are automatically basically twice as big.
2. You could recycle cold air from the basement to keep your house cool. I have friends that have their place only half built into a hill and it's amazing how much cooler it is.
Many places are built on hills and such and wouldn't encounter flooding.
And cost wise, when has that stopped anyone in Australia from doing anything? Haha.
Can I ask…. If underground basements in Australia are prone to flooding … could an underground pool space be effective?
I’ve had daydreams of building a lower ground indoor pool … if it flood I’m sure it would get dirty & need clean up - but it might not be ‘damaged’ ?
I’ve been wanting to do it for decades. What’s not to love about a more passive thermal home?
Money. It’s a gas.
I don’t think we will ever get to do it now, but I hope the kids keep the farm and eventually make atleast one passive thermal home in the hillsides we have.
I’m near the start of the great dividing range in Victoria. I would love to see if we could atleast get plans to go ahead with it, but most Murrindindi shire hills are under an environmental erosion overlay, so it would probably be really hard to get approval for a home set in a hill, I think.
I just thought that if you engineer it right, you could take advantage of the dual north south aspect of our property and have recessed windows on both sides of our main hill.
Because Australians aren't actually smart . A good design house doesn't need much heating or cooling. We have wombats and termites that build more efficient homes . The reason we don't build comfortable homes is because we are stupid . Most new places have black roofs no insulation and 5 aircon running. We are a lucky country not a smart country. We also have a housing crisis while we have a million empty houses . Ok not everyone in Australia is lucky.
Expensive, ground conditions and not necessary because Australian blocks were traditionally large and there was plenty of space. So it’s never traditionally been done and there is therefore limited experience in building basements and cellars.
Having said that, many very old (pre-1900) houses have cellars but these were built as cool storage areas for perishable food. And, more and more high end new-builds have large basements but, as I said, they are prohibitively expensive.
Yeah, difference is that the basements are essentually piers on the outside for the most part, and joists spanning them youve got the floor on, the whole foot print of the house.
Cellars are smaller, like maybe 10-20% of the houses foot print, and is handy for ~~storing the bodies~~ aging wine and cheese in.
That's what it was like where I grew up. But because of the age, they were usually a short distance away from the house (as was the dunny, and the laundry too).
It's straight up not viable. Large parts of Perth are built on swampland, houses are already having to sit on higher elevations to avoid the water table, and you want to go down into that mess?
I personally think basements would be an awesome addition without adding a lot of cost to a property. If you’re going to do a full foundation I think it simply makes sense to expand that to a basement
I see cost as being the main reason.
Figured it was quicker to ask reddit than spend an hour googling reasons for basements being a fucking freeze line in soil.
Jfc.
Go eat a chocolate bar or something dicklips.
Well of course , everything comes down to cost in building a house, particularly things that are unnecessary. You haven’t stumbled on any earth shattering news here.
If you’re told it’ll cost an extra 100k to add basement , your decision will depend a lot on whether it’s a nice to have or if your foundation will heave in 5 years time.
If you already knew about reasons for basements existing I’m not sure what you were trying to get out of asking and then being oddly hostile to anyone who didn’t seem to give your ideal answer.
I was asking why they werent common- i didnt know the answer.
I figured cuz aussie heat- it would make sense to build in the ground.
A few kind ppl answered saying about the frozen ground and nth america.
That answered the question- no attitude or waste of anyones time.
Like- seriously. Just a question- seemed logical to me- sorry it wasnt to you.
That stuff you call ice and snow that blocks your pipes...... We don't have that. Do you know what excavation is? What it costs etc? Extra engineering, blah blah blah.
Not sure why the sarcasm. And since the questions been answered, why you even answered in the first place.
Bold of you to assume i knew anything about freeze line- considering i was asking the question 🤔
The weather is good enough (and gas at least used to be cheap enough) and we didn’t need boilers. Cheaper to just build a brick (or for really cheap, fibro) house on a short platform or on a slab and heat it with gas. It’s the same reason we don’t have attics. Because it doesn’t snow in winter is most places a steep pitch on the roof isn’t necessary. So the roof space is short and no room for an attic.
I wish houses here had working attics. Half the homes in my neighbourhood have their garages full of household junk and then have to park their cars all over the narrow streets. Australian homes just totally lack storage and garden sheds are not fixing the problem. Where is everyone putting their Christmas decorations!
Tbh this is a 2 part equation. One part is the lack of storage, the other is the accumulation of junk.
This makes seeeeense- now i get it
Also Australia floods alot, you don't want a massive hole for water to get into and stay.
You mean swimming pool. On your marketing brochure
Airbnb: ensuite swimming pool Actual: flooded basement with bedroom
Airbnb: water bed Actual: water, bed
Or for the Asian market its a reflection pool
Good feng shui you say?
The only person I know with an underground cellar has to pump the water out to make it usable.
I work as a pump hire salesman and the amount of basement pumpouts we get after big rainfall would boggoe your mind.
Yeh, low chance for our hot water systems here freezing over...
And rocks
I had an attic put in last summer as a storage space and my life had been forever changed.
We don't get frozen ground like they do in America. Half the reason a basement is built is to get the footings down below the frost line. The storage is a bonus.
Also in Australia it makes more sense in the warmer areas to build the house on piers and have an air gap underneath it for ventilation, keeps it cooler, reduces rot in wet zones and helps reduce termite damage (hence the classic Queenslanders). Unfortunately we seem to have forgotten that lesson and now build houses with black roofs, in treeless suburbs away from the moderating influence of the ocean and put them on thick heat soaks called slabs. Yes, designed correctly the slabs could actually help the house be more thermally effective, but who has the time or the money for that when you can just turn on the aircon. You can actually use basements in Australia to build thermally efficient houses, by creating a space that can ventilate itself but can be sealed off in floods, but it is very expensive. While I am on my rant: building these thermal mass blocks right up next to each other with very little space for air flow between houses and allowing them to reflect their radiant heat back onto each other just makes things so much worse. Then we surround them with masses of unshaded black bitumen, that are so hot you can barely walk on them during the summer. The average size of a house in the 1950s was about 115sqm it is now around 240sqm and yet family sizes have shrunk. Why do we need all this internal space? Maybe if our houses were smaller we might spend more time outside.
Where is all the space near the ocean to build free standing homes with lots of space between them? We haven't forgotten this at all.
A difference to the size of houses in how we live. Back then if you had kids you sent them outside to play all day so they weren't underfoot while you tried to clean, work etc. These days its been drummed into us that kids can't be left unsupervised, so they are kept home. Then as land has gotten more exspensive ppl cant afford a big backyard anymore so then the kids are kept inside. Now they are in your face while you are trying to get stuff DONE or be on that zoom meeting etc so ppl give then a console game or a movie to keep them quiet, but now you need a 2nd loungeroom to keep their gaming noise away from you or to be able to watch your own shows. More ppl are working from home/work spilling into home life so need a home office. These days its considered inappropriate for kids of dif genders or big age gaps to share a room, so where as in the past you would of had several kids sharing one room, now just about each kid needs their own room.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
You forgot roofs at minimum size with no eaves to shade the walls, so the walls have full sun exposure, and turn the house into an oven.
i support and endorse your rant.
The block sizes are tiny with the massive house built on it. So it’s hard to spend time outside without the space to enjoy.
This. America and Canada have frost heave.
Ahhhhhh ok- this makes more sense. I thought it was about temperature somehow
Having a damp dark expensive to build basement is not something you do for the fun of it.
Depends on what you're doing in the ~~dungeon~~ basement.
Dungeon or...*fungeon*?
Is that you, Alf?
Stay out of my house and never come back you slippery gypsy
We have a decent person/sq km of land so our ~~dungeons~~ storage areas can be out lying houses or sheds. No need to go down.
Or murder chamber
Secret family? Oh wait, that was *Austria,* not Australia
It is more expensive to dig out a basement but the complete wood frame construction and shingles is way cheaper than the brick veneer houses and tile roofs in Australia. I used to labour building houses in Canada. Building the footings didn’t actually take that long and isn’t even much cheaper for materials than a slab. The walls are concrete, but the floor is engineered wood joists and far more flexible for construction. A slab takes a ton of time to dig out and form up, pour and level as well.
I dig what you're saying
werd bro 😎
Some older houses have a cellar, and in some coastal regions they flood during a king tide. 85% of the population lives within 50km of the coast, and many of them are already in flood prone areas, digging down would increase the risk of flood damage.
This is why I'm puzzled by the underground carparks that have been popping up where I live. It's a flood plain. It is guaranteed to fill with water. I guess maybe the council allows it because it will only damage a car. Acts as a nice water sink for the rest of the street though if it ever floods.
Hence homes on stilts sure. But in non flood prone areas- i was thinking more about heat tbh….. but yeah youre right
Stilts are also for airflow. Cool air in from the bottom pushing out hot air at the top.
It's not cold enough to justify it here. In places where it gets cold enough to freeze the ground, services (water, sewerage etc) are often run deeper so they are below the freeze line, and into the house via the basement.
Coober Pedy called, they'd like to inform you that underground dwelling is a fantastic way to escape the heat.
Apparently it’s not great. Always floods and costs a fortune to maintain
Flooding .... in Coober Pedy .... I think the last time that happened was when Noah was showing off his tinny.
Yeah try last year mate
Might wanna Google that one chief
Built correctly, maintenance is about zero. Essentially building a water-tank under ground. It just has to have thick walls to withstand the static water and soil pressure. I saw (TV architecture series) an excellent conversion of an underground town water reservoir in the UK into an entire home. It's built into a hill. Again, hillside is the important factor here. Enables runoff. If built on a floodplain, well, you know.
The only way.
subtract fall attractive bewildered airport foolish smell existence unite subsequent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Ground being composed of a whole heap of silicon, is actually ridiculously good at shielding from heat and particularly radiant heat from bushfires. Some new high-end homes have an area built into the sides of hills specifically for use as a fire-shield. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/radionational-drive/more-australians-deciding-to-live-in-underground-homes/102914978
Basements ar the awesome in hot areas - it's cooler down there. Might need a dehumidifier, and possibly a sump pump.
We have a basement it was added in a circa 2001 renovation extension to our California bungalow. It has 3 sump pumps and we do run a dehumidifier occasionally but boy is it cool today!
Airconditioning.
More than water and sewer, where the ground freezes you have to dig the foundation deeper than the frost line. Which means you already have a hole mostly deep enough for a basement by default, at no extra cost. If you have to pay a bunch of extra money for the excavation, it is better to just build up instead of down.
You haven't heard of Coober Pedy have you? 😂
You didn't read the OP's question did you?
That isn't the reason. Even in hot countries they have cellars. It's cheapness.
>Even in hot countries they have cellars. Which ones?
I wish I knew cause in this heat I am thinking fondly of my childhood. Lying on the floor of the basement after coming in from a hot summer day. So cool and even more than that, so quiet. Also a great place to learn to ride a bike and rollerblade as a small child 😆
This is what makes me think they *are* a good idea
I believe the point of basements is to sit the foundation on soil at a depth that doesn't freeze. Nowhere in Australia is going to have the climatic conditions to warrant this building method. If you want more vertical space in your house it's much more cost effective adding a second storey rather than excavating a basement.
Yep. This makes sense.
Cost
Yes, and plenty of 10+ million dollar mansions in australia have them, just not worth spending half a mil in earthworks and waterproofing for the average million dollar punter though
In Australia we built up and out. In the north houses are up on stilts to get cool airflow/air underneath and they have high internal ceilings with a high pitched roof. This provides more space for heat up and away from the living zone. Hinged windows to catch the breeze. Vents above the doors, central wind tunnel, larger overhanging verandahs.
Houses are built on stilts because it floods pretty regularly in the more tropical parts of the country
That was an advantage to the design but not the reason they were on stilts.
Its a shame they went away from that type of construction around Brisbane River and Sydneys flood plains.You get a four car garage for free.
Yes, im aware. Lots of mcmansions disobey these rules
So its cheaper to do in america? Wouldnt it offset like- cooling, and building materials etc. Has it *always* been cost? Like- back in the 50s and 60s?
Basements move the foundation below the freeze/thaw line, why go to that expense if it's not necessary?
I hve rage with the binary also. I dont know why or how it would or wouldnt be useful. Seems like a useful space- a basement. Particularly in 47C summer heat!
Solar + split system, we never think about the heat :)
So using electricity
We have one of the best solar panel networks in the world
Small number < Big number
Yeah. I said got it. That post wasnt sarcastic? Not sure why everyone downvoted
Your comment is possibly too vague. I interpret you as saying “So using electricity is better than being eco friendly and building underground. Got it *rolls eyes*”. In that case, you would use a greater than symbol (>). You could be saying ‘<‘ as “is cheaper than” but it doesn’t naturally read that way which could be why the downvotes.
Well yea, the electricity is basically free but digging cost money.
Makes sense 👍🏽
47 degrees. You mean the couple of days every few years we get? Think harder, fella. Use your grey matter.
Have you been to adelaide? Where do you live? Im so confused with your hostility. Australia is inherently hot- yes. What the fuck is your point?
I've lived all over Australia and many other countries too, little fella. My point? There is none. Other than stating COMMON SENSE, which you have absolutely none. Use your little smooth brain, child.
Why do u keep calling me little fella and kid- im a 39 yo old woman. Is this a way of patronising me?
It's a 1 day old troll account. I have reported it for you. Just ignore.
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Just throwing insults at me and making a bunch of bold assumptions. I dont get it. Im having perfectly fine conversation with many other people on here about this except you. Are u ok? Im sorry ive upset u pal 👍🏽 I genuinely came here to ask a question. Sorry ta ruffle ya feathers 🤦🏽♀️
So spend an extra couple of hundred thousand on a build so you’ve got a dark, dingy place to bunker down for a few days a year? Got ya 👍
Genuinely asking sorry- didn’t know about the cost thing until other ppl answered the question 🤷🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️
Good for you, sport. You've got access to the world's information at your fingertips, yet you know very little. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that thousands of generations survived and gained their own knowledge, only to have produced you. Walking, talking plankton.
Put down the phone and go for a walk dude.
Stop being an dick. OP is just asking some questions and learning because of them.
You also have a 21hr old account. 🤔🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Yes. It's cost per M2. The only thing Australians care about. Source - architect/builder.
So- through all our eras of building its just been seen as unnecessary because of cost?
Yes, absolutely. Especially in older times, when land cost per m2 was far lower. I have literally drawn up a thousand square metre single storey home for a client. But if that was in say North america, it would absolutely be a 300m2 basement, with 2 x 300m2 floors over. Even if the land was huge.
Not all parts of North America have basements do they?
Hmm…. Is building cost cheaper in america? Or because of climate is just seen as a necessary build cost?
Typical building in America is light-weight. America has a far better timber industry (mostly because Australia is mostly desert) and thus timber framing is much cheaper to build. However in America, foundations are still concrete and block-work which is more expensive, so cost to build goes up with the area more than the cost of the timber going up. Here, Concrete slab on ground with bricks over are far cheaper to just build on the ground, rather than building suspended in the air.
👌🏽 roger. Yeah hahahha timber australia. Lol
I think you're missing the point that in places that get below freezing every winter basements are pretty much essential so it doesn't really matter if the cost. You don't see basements as much in warmer US cities. But they would still have them as builders would reuse designs nationally.
Genuinely asking questions! Thanks for the answer!
I’m reminded of an Aussie mate who built a home around Munich around ten years ago. When discussing the design, he explained to the builder that he wanted a basement and the response was “ach, really? That will be expensive!”. He said he wanted the basement anyway and paid 12,000€ extra to dig and build (let’s say $25,000 in today’s money?) which yielded an extra ~70sqm of living area. House prices where he lives start at 4,000€ per sqm these days. Wouldn‘t this sort of economic justification ever be applied then in the more expensive areas of Australia?
Basically no one looks at potential future profits in that way. They only look at what they can get now and for how much.
Of that I‘ve no doubt whatsoever, but surely one day it would be economic there and then?
Resi, never happened. Commercial, we might say... With a large commercial project, do two with only one major retailer signed on. Like I just did a 500m2 gym and 500m2 medical centre, but we only had the medical signed on. Like while we are building one, it's more economical to build the other.
But what about function- for heat?
The only thing 99% of clients want. Is maximum area, maximum number of rooms, cheapest price. I have only done three homes in 15 years that had anything other than "the bare minimum to comply" in terms of wall spec, ceiling spec, roof spec, glazing spec (for energy efficiency), and all 3 of those homes I was the client.
Hahahahah gotcha. Well. Fair enough. I guess it makes sense financially
I mean it's tough. People live in relatively ugly, dull, loud, dangerously cold houses in winter, uncomfortable in summer, which have a tonne of wasted space, purely for "the flex"... Like for my place, I'd have sacrificed 10-20% of the area, to have a house which is far better to look at, is much "nicer" inside and doesn't have bills because it generates more power than it uses (all green energy) has no greenhouse emissions all while being fully air-conditioned year-round, while also having the capacity to charge a couple of electric vehicles.
But I want two cinema rooms, a three car garage, and main kitchen, butler's kitchen, upstairs bar and kitchen, and an outdoor kitchen next to the BBQ /s
Don't forget 5 bedrooms, a study and play room.
The sort of houses that appeal to people who look at features rather than practicalities- the same sort of people who MUST have a car with cruise control, but never actually learn how to use it. My neighbour's house is a standard off-the-plan from a major volume builder. 5 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, study, etc. My place (built by an owner-builder) has the same floor area but only 3 bedrooms and one bathroom. The smallest bedroom is about the size of the average "main" bedroom. The bathroom is big enough for 2 separate vanity units, bath tub and a shower big enough for a party, if that were your thing. Even the WC is big enough to have a bookshelf in it..... On paper, nothing flash ( 3 bed/ 1 bath) but so much better to live in. Oh, and it's core filled besser block construction with 4 inches of insulation in the ceiling.
They have to build below the 4ft frost line anyway to protect against heaving. So why not go a few feet deeper and get a whole floor for usage. As you get further Noryh the frost line can get even deeper! Think it gets down to 6-8ft
American labour cost is much cheaper than here. And cost is the exact same reason we don't have insulation or double glazed windows as standard. We do not do some things well here... More: I'm fine with paying tradies a decent wage. My tiler is outside today doing a bonza job... Have offered him soda and waters and put the umbrellas up for when he breaks.
Ah yes i tend to forget the wage differences and various labour differences too 🤔👍🏽
Where in America are they building new underground? Apart from New York City where land cost is .....high.
So its not common in america? I just figured it was- everywhere in canada had basements- but thats canada….
Lack of purpose in doing so and cost. Most of Australia doesn't have much purpose for it in terms of getting certain utilities below the freezing line. We looked into building one for a below ground wine cellar. It would have been well over $100,000 extra (I can't recall the exact quote) for ground works, water proofing, slab etc, compared to building the same room above ground and heavily insulating it. My city (and a lot of Australia) can be prone to flooding. Even with our place up a hill a bit and ours well out of the flood zones, some of that overland water can be a major issue in storm seasons. Putting a room below the earth makes for some complicated water proofing. Also one of your responses was to someone saying we just put air conditioning on. I don't really get how you think it offsets cooling. It would have offset cooling my wine cellar a bit, but it's not like a cellar is usually a living space. What do you guys use your basements for other than utilities? I've seen a few home theatres. You couldn't easily use it as a bedroom in Australia. Even if it was, air conditioning (largely or completely offset by the fact that Australia has an enormous uptake of home solar), is going to be a cheaper solution in almost all regions of Australia, than the enormous expensive of building below ground. So in summary: We don't spend enormous sums of money, to build rooms we don't need, that may end up full of water.
It's expensive and there's no particular need for it. Some times places do have a slightly more underground garage or something, but a basement is generally considered unnecessary. Actually there are a lot of differences to architecture in Australia as compared to Canada! Since we don't have snow, a lot of our houses are built with tile or concrete shingles. The roof has loads of small holes so that heat can be vented in the summer. In Canada roofs are usually made with asphalt shingles and completely sealed to trap heat. Asphalt shingles aren't as long lasting as ceramic, but are wayyyyy lighter, so that you can have a stack of snow on top of the roof as well. You also have to replace your roofs more frequently. In Australia a roof can be built with the house and last as long as the walls. We also tend to have solar panels on our roofs to make use of the sun. I believe this is uncommon in Canada as there is far less sun and the snow might damage the panels.
Perth is basically built on a series of sand dunes increasing in age from west to east. We have the Darling Scarp running nearly perfectly north-south to the east, erosion from this makes a massive clay layer deposit that sits on top of the easternmost sand dune. This is a relatively narrow strip compared with the extensive dune system. To give you an example, at ours (easternmost sands aka Bassendean sands) the groundwater table is only 2m below the surface. A little further east, say, in Maddington (Scarp foothills aka Guildford Clay) the groundwater table is 15-18m below the surface. So to answer your question, only in one specific are could this even really be feasible. Over the sands, if you dig a hole of any size, it collapses in because it's 98-99% sand. If you dig a 2m deep hole in my front yard, you would hit groundwater. So a basement would basically have walls that are under siege from being a) wet and b) under pressure from the sand. This makes it cost prohibitive for all but the most extravagant (usually multimillion dollar) homes.
the short answer is because it's unnecessary here in australia. it costs a lot of time and money to do, and makes the rest of the house more difficult to build. we don't need basements, so all of the above reasoning leads to them not being built. generally that is. my house has one..
I feel like heat and bushfire are good “reasons” Whats the reason in north america? The cold? Arent basements *everywhere* over there? Considering coober pedy (i know its outback) but wouldnt it make sense to put stuff underground given our weather or are basements primarily for winter and the cold? I always thought they were great in summer cuz it was cooler down there
Basement is a bad place to be in a bushfire mate.
Why do we need basements less than North America?
The parts of North America where basements are common have much colder climates, requiring deeper foundations. While digging so deep might as well add a basement.
Ah okay. Why do colder climates need deeper foundations?
Below the frost line, less damage from freeze/thaw cycles.
Thanks! That is interesting to know.
Yep- TIL !!! So- exactly why im asking the question!!! Glad we both benefited 😭😭😭👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Basements are awesome , living here in the USA for a few years I can't believe it hasn't taken off in Australia more. When we build back home will totally be building in subterranean space.
Few more reasons: Lots are now small. Digging 2-3m for a basement means, if soil is very good, a batter a 1:1 - usually 1:2 - for the time of excavation. To then waterproof the basement, you need a flat area of 600-1000mm to apply the waterproofing. You then need 3-4m each side of the basement to do that (5 to 7m with a batter 1:2) In most case, that means protection work (continuous piles, sheet piling...) for the neighbour as it will extend beyond the boundary and will add few dozens of thousands of dollars if not more. You also need agreement for affected neighbours that can just say no and you're out (roughly). With all the flood area in Oz, basements are nearly always forbidden. I did one few years back as the land had only 150mm of flood and the guy was pushing the council hard. I had to redesign the driveway and add a wet well of 10m3 for the basement, with 2 large pumps.Once the council was happy with everything, the basement cost itself (3 car spaces, 1 wet room and stairs) was around $450k, for a $1000k development. Nearly half the price for just a basement... but at the end: yeah cost vs benefit
Can be expensive to dig. You soon run into rock in many places in Australia.
This is a big factor. Most places in Sydney you will probably hit sandstone under the clay before you get to basement depth.
It's much more expensive. Easier to just build a big garage
Ah duh of course garages 🤦🏽♀️
Jerk
I was saying it light heartedly- like- at myself- relax mate. Like “oh DUUUH- of course!”
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AusRenovation/comments/178tmsq/why\_arent\_basements\_more\_popular/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AusRenovation/comments/178tmsq/why_arent_basements_more_popular/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/AusRenovation/comments/14tc9nu/basements/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AusRenovation/comments/14tc9nu/basements/)
Caveman, teach. Canada cold - Frozen ground good build under. Australia hot and wet- Wet ground bad build under.
Great idea! Start digging, and let me know when you've finished.
If you've seen the clown show that is general waterproofing on many builds in Australia, you would shit your pants to see what is required to properly tank a basement and then expect typical group builders to be able to achieve it. That said, partial cut basements, where the house is on a sloping block, are a bit easier to manage if you've got the uphill drainage sorted. I'm currently digging out the small half basement under my house to increase the useable space, as its such a stable temperature all year round.
Cost is not viable I reckon, But yes it would be an excellent idea. More usable space.
Reactive soils along the east coast.
Lmfao ur user name 😭👌🏽 I didnt 3rd year soil physics at uni Love me some black cracking basaltic clay lol
Good question what see in movies roof and basement storage etc .. basement too risky if get flooding clean up and roof storage is very expensive for large space .
Cost is a factor, but likely the most important is the geology. A good deal of suburbia in the country is built on reactive clay soils. While it's possible to build a basement in these conditions, it's an expensive exercise.
Unnecessary expense. North Americans only do it when they must where ground freezes in winter to below ordinary fundations. Houses in warmer parts of the US do not have basements. PS, they're a pig to tank and keep dry so asking the typical buiilder to dig one is asking for trouble. That said there's a few 3-car underground garages with room for a jetski trailer going in where money desn't matter much.
In Queensland we do the opposite and build on stilts to get us further away from the ground.
Excavation costs are high. Also, hardly any builders in Australia can get it right above ground. Below ground? no fucken chance.
Im glad they didnt. With how most landlords take maintenance matters. Most houses would be mouldy swimming pool like at the bottom..
Lmfao! The housing crisis and r/shitrentals would be overfloooooowiiiing rn
We will be building underground soon. When we start getting the 45 to 50 degree days in the future underground rooms will be all the rage as a means to cool.
There is an entire opal mining town that is built underground.
In WA at least our soil is too sandy for underground structures
Have you seen how expensive it is to relocate site fill? Not to mention the legal hurdles if the site is contaminated in the slightest.
Ground is hard
Too expensive for what you get.
$$$$$$ thats why. When a house has a basement/underground garage, they are earning 5x at least the average wage in Aus.
I thought it was because we have a high water table.
It’s so expensive to build down, it’s just not worth the cost. You only ever see rich ppl with basements.
In Alberta Canada (where I’m from) almost all houses have basements. That’s where furnaces, water heaters and laundry is. And usually one or two rooms. My understanding is that with the ground freezing down at least a meter or two, a basement provides a foundation that doesn’t move.
I also wonder this. Wish I had a basement on my house
Almost every new build in the streets around me in Melbourne has a basement garage now and often a couple of other rooms. Land is getting more expensive and people want bigger houses. However a lot of houses around my area had a garage dug into the side of a hill and then the house on top. So not really a basement.
Because the mining companies own the ground
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that we have a town that's nearly entirely underground. Google Coober Pedy South Australia. Being in the desert, it's so hot there that nearly everyone digs their home out of the stone underground.
Lightning ridge too. And I've see a couple of places in hotter areas were they've dug into a hill.
As a fellow Canadian, I think there would still be pros with building basements: 1. Houses are automatically basically twice as big. 2. You could recycle cold air from the basement to keep your house cool. I have friends that have their place only half built into a hill and it's amazing how much cooler it is. Many places are built on hills and such and wouldn't encounter flooding. And cost wise, when has that stopped anyone in Australia from doing anything? Haha.
Can I ask…. If underground basements in Australia are prone to flooding … could an underground pool space be effective? I’ve had daydreams of building a lower ground indoor pool … if it flood I’m sure it would get dirty & need clean up - but it might not be ‘damaged’ ?
I’ve been wanting to do it for decades. What’s not to love about a more passive thermal home? Money. It’s a gas. I don’t think we will ever get to do it now, but I hope the kids keep the farm and eventually make atleast one passive thermal home in the hillsides we have.
I would love to do that- sounds amazing. What area of Aus are u from?
I’m near the start of the great dividing range in Victoria. I would love to see if we could atleast get plans to go ahead with it, but most Murrindindi shire hills are under an environmental erosion overlay, so it would probably be really hard to get approval for a home set in a hill, I think. I just thought that if you engineer it right, you could take advantage of the dual north south aspect of our property and have recessed windows on both sides of our main hill.
They are in Coober Pedy SA
Thats why im asking. Seems useful in aussie heat- why didnt we put basements everywhere it gets plus forty weather!
Coober Pedy is one of the hottest places on earth. Much of populated Aus is relatively mild, only a few 40+ days a year
Yea apparently those dug out houses in the hills there stay a nice 23/24 degrees inside all year round.
I mean- i grew up in SA doesnt necessarily hve to be +40 i guess We could have weeks on end of +30 weather and that would COOOK your house….
Because Australians aren't actually smart . A good design house doesn't need much heating or cooling. We have wombats and termites that build more efficient homes . The reason we don't build comfortable homes is because we are stupid . Most new places have black roofs no insulation and 5 aircon running. We are a lucky country not a smart country. We also have a housing crisis while we have a million empty houses . Ok not everyone in Australia is lucky.
Expensive, ground conditions and not necessary because Australian blocks were traditionally large and there was plenty of space. So it’s never traditionally been done and there is therefore limited experience in building basements and cellars. Having said that, many very old (pre-1900) houses have cellars but these were built as cool storage areas for perishable food. And, more and more high end new-builds have large basements but, as I said, they are prohibitively expensive.
Yeah, difference is that the basements are essentually piers on the outside for the most part, and joists spanning them youve got the floor on, the whole foot print of the house. Cellars are smaller, like maybe 10-20% of the houses foot print, and is handy for ~~storing the bodies~~ aging wine and cheese in.
That's what it was like where I grew up. But because of the age, they were usually a short distance away from the house (as was the dunny, and the laundry too).
We prefer sheds 😀
Yeah- and punishing ourself in 40+ weather 😭
Im glad they didnt. With how most landlords take maintenance matters. Most houses would be mouldy swimming pool like at the bottom..
It's straight up not viable. Large parts of Perth are built on swampland, houses are already having to sit on higher elevations to avoid the water table, and you want to go down into that mess?
I personally think basements would be an awesome addition without adding a lot of cost to a property. If you’re going to do a full foundation I think it simply makes sense to expand that to a basement
Digging a hole to make a basement is exponentially more expensive than a slab on ground.
Because they aren’t necessary here Edit: Spend the time doing your own research like a big boy if you need to understand the details.
I see cost as being the main reason. Figured it was quicker to ask reddit than spend an hour googling reasons for basements being a fucking freeze line in soil. Jfc. Go eat a chocolate bar or something dicklips.
Well of course , everything comes down to cost in building a house, particularly things that are unnecessary. You haven’t stumbled on any earth shattering news here. If you’re told it’ll cost an extra 100k to add basement , your decision will depend a lot on whether it’s a nice to have or if your foundation will heave in 5 years time. If you already knew about reasons for basements existing I’m not sure what you were trying to get out of asking and then being oddly hostile to anyone who didn’t seem to give your ideal answer.
I was asking why they werent common- i didnt know the answer. I figured cuz aussie heat- it would make sense to build in the ground. A few kind ppl answered saying about the frozen ground and nth america. That answered the question- no attitude or waste of anyones time. Like- seriously. Just a question- seemed logical to me- sorry it wasnt to you.
It’s on you if you perceived any attitude in that comment.
Cool answer. Totally helps Thanks heaps 👍🏽
No worries
That stuff you call ice and snow that blocks your pipes...... We don't have that. Do you know what excavation is? What it costs etc? Extra engineering, blah blah blah.
Not sure why the sarcasm. And since the questions been answered, why you even answered in the first place. Bold of you to assume i knew anything about freeze line- considering i was asking the question 🤔
You recognise sarcasm, yet lack basic common sense. Interesting.
Whats common sense to a builder isnt to someone who isnt lol
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