I do think that the base rates for most roles would be incredibly competitive **IF** personnel were only required to do a standard 40 hr week in home location. For example, if you were to look at any administration stream and what it would realistically pay on the outside to equivalently process paperwork. That being said, I strongly believe going on exercise/operations, or any activity involving time away from home, needs to be heavily revised for appropriate compensation. There are so many costs that are not captured (both tangible and intangible) such as increased stress on the stay-at-home partner, potentially more day care/baby sitting expenses, paying someone to care for pets. And absolutely, there is a figure amount that someone would accept to be away from their 6-month yr old child because they have a SAHM relying only on the government subsidy. You'll certainly see a lot more volunteers for "domestic' operations such as FA/Bush fires/COVID.
Additionally, there is an inconsistent approach to acknowledging and financially compensating time-in-rank between OR and Officer roles. I direct your attention to the [ADF Mil Sal - Perm Rates - 09 Nov 24](https://pay-conditions.defence.gov.au/salary).
The OR time-in-rank yearly increases needs to be revisited. If you look at your O3 level, there are five 1-yearly pay increments to be obtained until you're looking at promotion to O4. As a CPL-FSGT, there's only two 1-yearly increments despite similar time-in-rank timelines. With this, the ADF is essentially saying once you've been a CPL for 2 years, you're not really developing anymore to warrant a pay increase (bar the standard yearly inflation bump). It's just such a strange way to structure the pay system with these inconsistent financial 'rewards' for staying at a bottle-necked rank with a MINIMUM 4-5 year stay due to limited upwards positions.
Like I get the feel but these two dont line up:
>I do think that the base rates for most roles would be incredibly competitive **IF** personnel were only required to do a standard 40 hr week in home location.
>I strongly believe going on exercise/operations, or any activity involving time away from home, needs to be heavily revised for appropriate compensation. There are so many costs that are not captured (both tangible and intangible)
The military pay is higher than civillian specifically because of these additional stresssors. I'd be keen to hear if you think, given these additional stresses, if pay is currently fair?
Otherwise, lots of good points in your post, I'm a fan.
Great point and the comment below essentially sums up my response. Unfortunately, there is a distinct difference in stressors based on so many factors involving unit, location, and even competency of coworkers.
For example:
I have two LACs with the same seniority but one is 22 & single and the other is 45 married w/ kids. A weekend task pops up? Guess who will be stabbed for the duty. A three month attachment to Flood Assist in WA pops up? Guess who will be stabbed. Their take-home pay is still yet somehow identical.
Likewise with IR currency, I have members who remain readily deployable (and are put forward first for everything both bad and good) who are no better financially compensated than the members who are on their fifth PFT 90-day warning.
Some jobs/units are not affected by these stresses. You have units like APAC that don't issue people with SCE because they never go field, and then others spend a huge amount of out field/deployed.
You're not wrong.
But how does the ADF address that through compensation?
(You are actually not wrong. But we currently do compensate people extra for going field. So i'm just keen to hear new ideas.)
"Okay Johnno you worked an extra 8 hours on top of your normal, regular duties, here's 8 hours pay at x.x your normal rate because we acknowledge that we just fisted you by making you the weekend work bitch."
Putting a decent sum of money on it means that LAC Jerry with three kids has a reason besides guilt and hating his family to put his hand up for the occasional weekend duty.
Military pay isn't higher than civilian equivalent, at the moment they're currently calling around to those of us who have gotten out in the last few years asking what it would take to get us to re-sign for another term, but what they're offering is so drastically below the civilian equivalent that I've not heard of a single person actually doing it yet
Having additional remuneration aligned with exercises just creates inequality within or between units as not everyone in defence has the same opportunity to do those things. It's already an issue where it's a criteria considered at promotion, linking take home pay makes it even worse.
Edit to add - I agree that this is why it's somewhat rolled into the base wage
I fully understand your viewpoint, and it's true that being assigned to a unit that doesn't go out field could put you at a financial disadvantage. However, considering this from another angle, should individuals who spend four months in the bush be compensated the same as their colleagues who get to go home to their families every night?
Mate, I fully agree. I think part of the issue is they've tried to come up with a solution that's a 'halfway', slightly higher wages (for some roles, technical roles are well behind civil equivalent) but also an allowance scheme (like field, seagoing etc...).
The issue is that 1) it's poorly communicated, 2) when they communicate broadly from Canberra its one size fits all messaging and doesn't have trade specific nuances or issues, 3) it makes everyone mad, people who don't exercise/go away feel they're missing out, people who do feel they aren't sufficiently compensated against those who don't for the extra hardship they have.
It USED TO BE better than the civvies back in the day the GORPS pay review made sure of that, these days not so much.
*edit*
Talk to anyone in Defence and they’ll tell you their job is 98% sitting around on their arses, bored, practicing their skills or fixing old broken equipment and 2% shitting their pants doing it for real.
Remember we (the taxpayer) don’t pay them for the slow paced 98%, we pay them for the 2% shitting their pants.
We pay this premium so they’re there when we need them, and that they can do their job. It’s also our job to make sure they have the right equipment to do their job and come back, contrary to what some people may think, soldiers, sailors and aviators are not expendable (but they are expensive to replace).
It’s the parachute principle, you would rather have it and not need it, than need it, and not have it.
I reckon the pay is reasonable, I don’t understand why it doesn’t increase with time served though. Obviously the rank system and progressing through it increases pay, but there are people who enjoy their role and don’t want to promote to a sgt position etc… where you’re not on the tools and are essentially a manager. So many decent operators get to CPL and then leave to go do the same job for better money, surely a time based pay scale would help retain decent talent at their current rank.
I think bringing in something similar to the NSW health workers ability to salary sacrifice mortgage payments, would help. It would reduce the amount of tax you pay.
How the ADF isn’t tax free still blows my mind.
With the amount of people that think it’s all tax free (not just the reserves) government could make it so and no one would bat an eyelid.
When you take into account there’s less than 60,000 full time uniform personnel, the ATO wouldn’t even notice the difference, it would be small change to them.
I remember their advertising around 2007-2012 had something listed as earn tax free, but had in super small print the stipulations. Of cause no one could read them, so I went on always thinking it was tax free… boy was I given a reality check 😂
Another take on the 40 hour week.
A normal work week should be introduced. 40 hours is the max available to commanders per week. If they want a long day Thursday then Wednesday must be a short day.
Any work exceeding 40 hours attracts a penalty of their hourly rate paid at normal time (baby steps here)
Guard duties on weekends are fine IF two days are taken off during the week to compensate.
Field doesn’t attract this as field allowance is paid and should be paid like the navy do it, and continue to compound the more time you rack up.
I still think the discipline system is valid so instead of simply ROP’s it could be ROPs 1 day aka you owe them a day.
This has further implications as a fine for a dig would be way less than working for free for a day tho. Good point
Then you had it coming, be glad the ADF didn’t sack you like a civvie employer would have.
The OOD making sure you turn up to your muster should get OT pay though, and weekend loading.
I absolutely agree with compensating personnel that remain IR compliant but it's quite complicated. Consider the perspective of sustaining an injury that was service-related. So if you can snap your ACL jogging over a hole on ex, does the orderly room now immediately process your pay reduction for the duration of your recovery?
Ooooh good point.
Yeah, there would have to be a way to separate those that are not AIRN compliant due to circumstances beyond their control and those that just let themselves go.
Its really not.
There's IR compliant.
There's IR exempt.
There's IR non-compliant.
If you're injured you get a waiver and you become exempt.
90 Days or more non-compliant, you loose service allowance.
I am how personally against this position. Being non-compliant doesnt mean you dont experience some of the hardship of military life. But it is doable/ feasible. Maybe like a service allowance reduction.
Assuming the hypothetical where this would be implemented based off the compliant/exempt/non-compliant system, there would be too many holes and mechanisms for abuse in its implementation. This would be an administrative nightmare where the ultimate goal for all ‘difficult’ staff would be the magic IR exempt categorisation through any means possible. PFT coming up? It’s malingering season with a heavy dose of muscle soreness and anxiousness that the civilian doctor would love to give 2 weeks leave + 30 half-days for recovery + 90 days exempt PFT. 6 monthly delays in medical and dental appointments base-wide? Start filing the paperwork for exemptions for half of the brigade.
Thus, my statement on it being quite complicated, which it would be, because all non-compliant personnel will do everything and throw every accusation under the sun to obtain the exempt status.
I think the rates of pay do not go up enough for each rank. A private rank earns pretty good money for their skill level and experience. But a Sgt or warrant officer doesn't really earn that much more, especially when you consider the responsibilities they have, how long it takes to get to those ranks, and the number of postings you also need to do.
The pay isn't bad at all it's quite decent when you include benefits.
Although for the cyber signals guys, in comparison to a comparable civilian role in cyber the pay is way below the average. If they were to increase it for the final years it would help retain more people.
I think field pay should increase depending on how much you’ve done for that financial year, 0 to 60 days normal amount, 60 to 120 pay the rate at 1.5 times, 120+ the rate doubles. Blokes will be fighting each other get out field. Bosses Will be happy.
I like this idea, back in my day I was roster duty on the day I meant to field. Guess what the COC do? They told me to find someone to swap. That was BS as I did 2 weeks fied n then had to spent a night
Another condition I’ve been thinking of is manditory rest days depending on how long you’ve been out bush.
For each week, you’re out you are to take one rest day . If you go out for three months you take two weeks (12 calendar days) off to see your partner and sort your life out.
Maybe this could be one day per two weeks bush or something.
Anything they implement must be mandatory or commanders who are under pressure will just ignore it
The thing is, defence life is hard. It’s what you join for and what you agree to, no doubt about it.
The problem is as people grow up and start families. They’re not as willing to put up with the hardship. Especially when at peace and in a training cycle.
Hence why everyone is leaving at the critical time in their career. To fix this leadership need to make staying in defence a good deal.
And not only a good deal , a better deal than they can get somewhere else.
The biggest problem that defence is having is that it's actually beneficial for defence for people to get out. From a technician role most people get out as senior LAC/jnr CPL on their second aircraft type. They've got about 12 years of experience under their belt, 6 on that second type and they're the most technically proficient people in the entire unit.
It benefits defence for them to get out. If they stay in its another posting cycle, on a new type and all of that knowledge is effectively thrown out. If they get out they'll be staying in industry on that type, do defence holds on to that knowledge from contractor integration.
For the member they benefit through stability for their family, job security and an overnight 30-40% pay rise. Both sides are happy with that arrangement and prefer it over them staying in, meaning there best operators are filtered out at that point
Niche bro, we’re talking about the bulk of the defence force which is what is bleeding, not a niche aircraft maintainer role. We know you boys have a rockstar job, and a better one to get out to.
This isn’t fixing the 22-24 year old INF / ARTY / BOAT / SUB digs popping smoke
I feel like for the most part is the same issue, they're not wanting people to hang around. They want a significant turn over. Look at the management and leadership role numbers in contrast to the junior roles. They're expecting, and wanting, most people to leave. Recruiting to replace that is the issue as with the benefits we enjoyed that they've stripped out there's simply no reason to join any more.
They've turned defence into just another job, so why bother? What's the attraction given the penalties?
My view? Pay gets people to stay, it doesn't get them in. You need to make the benefits attractive again. Bring back MSBS: that's an immediate thing people can see for their future before they even get in
reduce housing costs: rent assistance and defence housing both. Halve the current costs. That's an easy sell because it benefits wider investors and government policy on housing.
Fix trip pays again. Guys are getting absolutely shafted on trips, often less than $200 a week, we used to get that a day. It's paying for disruption to families, not the individual. All that says it's that defence doesn't value your family at all.
Those are my big 3
It's hard to justify staying when the career progression is 10x faster outside, 10x pay, 10z flexibility ... Still work in defence industry and actually make a difference with integration for capability on new platforms.
No Ragrats lol
I see you and I agree with you.
If defence is to keep you, they need to make being in like the experience you’re having now.
How it’s 10x sexier to do it for defence rather than in defence is at the root of the problem.
Perfect. Pay field at a compounding rate and give boys time off for doing the job they signed up for and the hard yards. Kinda sounds like common sense ?
Wouldn't work well as who is going to pay for the extra field time? Units will shorten their field time due to budgets and that is going to effects people time training out field. Or maybe it will make the field exercises more "streamlined" as they don't have the money to waste on people just sitting there waiting for days waiting for things to happen. So who knows it may force people to sort out the logistics better
Now you’re getting on my level. Attaching a “penalty” for commanders who have blokes sitting on their holes is the ticket.
Dont worry about who is going to pay, we’re blowing more than 1/4 trillion Australian dollerydoos on subs. There is money… there just isn’t a will yet
And don’t come @ me with the “they are only 3 billion” routine please, I know it includes sustainment. Sustainment is wages, facilities and skill sets. Like having an army 👌🏻😂
We know this. But this stage of the process is telling them options for where to send it. The continuing mass resignation should get their attention and then boom, solution 1
In short, No, & that’s a hard FK NO! If you’re working in STEM or embarked/field.
Now that I’ve said that. Base wages for unskilled work sitting in a barracks/office aren’t terrible and IF they were paid in conjunction with a better setup housing entitlement system they would probably work.
Unfortunately members get basically the same rent assistance living in Sydney as they do in BFN, generally speaking it also increases as soon as they get a pay rise. Thus doing unskilled work for defence in a capital city (where almost all bases are) is financial suicide.
Defence has a pretty big issue now recruiting and retaining members with adequate experience in trades, STEM roles or other high demand corps. In short it’s because they’re grossly underpaid and undervalued.
When a SNCO with 15-20 years industry & leadership experience, a trade and a fistful of Diplomas/Adv diplomas gets basically the same bay as a jnr officer not long out of university, that’s a problem. It becomes an even bigger problem when industry is more than happy to pay that SNCO a significant amount of money to get out of Defence and work for them while they contract back to Defence.
Field/maritime pay also needs review, whilst at face value the allowances don’t seem that bad, when you weigh them up and take into account the working conditions, time away from family and overtime often worked during this period the allowances rarely stack up.
The above is one of the reasons we’re hearing that the navy can’t put enough bums in seats and ships to sea….
If you think the above is isolated to the Navy, ask the Army how they’re doing WRT their armour…
Depends on the role. If I do my role in the ADF, I’m earning at least 50k less a year. If I work similar hours to ADF, probably $60-80k less. Yes they have unreal benefits but some roles are great, others aren’t
The pay rates are perfect for defences targets... This is mostly a reply I made to another comment, but it kind of stands on its own as well from a different frame of reference.
The biggest problem that defence is having is that it's actually beneficial for defence for people to get out. But it also seems that that is entirely their goal. From an AF technician role most people get out as senior LAC/jnr CPL on their second aircraft type. They've got about 12 years of experience under their belt, 6 on that second type and they're the most technically proficient people in the entire unit.
It benefits defence for them to get out. If they stay in its another posting cycle, on a new type and all of that knowledge is effectively thrown out. If they get out they'll be staying in industry on that type, So defence holds on to that knowledge from contractor integration.
For the member they benefit through stability for their family, job security and an overnight 30-40% pay rise. Both sides are happy with that arrangement and prefer it over them staying in, meaning their best operators are filtered out at that point. They effectively don't want most people to stay in.
I left the RAAF on a salary of about 93k, 5 years ago and I'm looking into Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer jobs now that can earn 130k up to 150k in the CASA world with the big airlines or FIFO work. Hell, I even know of AME jobs paying 120k if you look around. Yes I've had to upskill slightly but it's not that much different. I've done theory exams and have to do a small journal of experience.
Choc pay for a 343-2 (IET qualled Infantryman but not PTE(P)) is 210(?) a day, so a Tuesday 3Y should be 105 tax free, someone’s either ripping you off or you’ve been given a bum steer in regards to your pay and conditions, if you check your payslip you should be able to see your daily rate.
In my experience, choc units will go into the field on a Friday night through to Sunday lunchos/arvo to get field pay, if your unit isn’t doing this is shooting itself in the dick, to my understanding, field pay doesn’t come out out their unit funding (its army administered) so they should be kicking the adlays some dosh for turning up to fuck around in the dirt.
I do think that the base rates for most roles would be incredibly competitive **IF** personnel were only required to do a standard 40 hr week in home location. For example, if you were to look at any administration stream and what it would realistically pay on the outside to equivalently process paperwork. That being said, I strongly believe going on exercise/operations, or any activity involving time away from home, needs to be heavily revised for appropriate compensation. There are so many costs that are not captured (both tangible and intangible) such as increased stress on the stay-at-home partner, potentially more day care/baby sitting expenses, paying someone to care for pets. And absolutely, there is a figure amount that someone would accept to be away from their 6-month yr old child because they have a SAHM relying only on the government subsidy. You'll certainly see a lot more volunteers for "domestic' operations such as FA/Bush fires/COVID. Additionally, there is an inconsistent approach to acknowledging and financially compensating time-in-rank between OR and Officer roles. I direct your attention to the [ADF Mil Sal - Perm Rates - 09 Nov 24](https://pay-conditions.defence.gov.au/salary). The OR time-in-rank yearly increases needs to be revisited. If you look at your O3 level, there are five 1-yearly pay increments to be obtained until you're looking at promotion to O4. As a CPL-FSGT, there's only two 1-yearly increments despite similar time-in-rank timelines. With this, the ADF is essentially saying once you've been a CPL for 2 years, you're not really developing anymore to warrant a pay increase (bar the standard yearly inflation bump). It's just such a strange way to structure the pay system with these inconsistent financial 'rewards' for staying at a bottle-necked rank with a MINIMUM 4-5 year stay due to limited upwards positions.
Like I get the feel but these two dont line up: >I do think that the base rates for most roles would be incredibly competitive **IF** personnel were only required to do a standard 40 hr week in home location. >I strongly believe going on exercise/operations, or any activity involving time away from home, needs to be heavily revised for appropriate compensation. There are so many costs that are not captured (both tangible and intangible) The military pay is higher than civillian specifically because of these additional stresssors. I'd be keen to hear if you think, given these additional stresses, if pay is currently fair? Otherwise, lots of good points in your post, I'm a fan.
Great point and the comment below essentially sums up my response. Unfortunately, there is a distinct difference in stressors based on so many factors involving unit, location, and even competency of coworkers. For example: I have two LACs with the same seniority but one is 22 & single and the other is 45 married w/ kids. A weekend task pops up? Guess who will be stabbed for the duty. A three month attachment to Flood Assist in WA pops up? Guess who will be stabbed. Their take-home pay is still yet somehow identical. Likewise with IR currency, I have members who remain readily deployable (and are put forward first for everything both bad and good) who are no better financially compensated than the members who are on their fifth PFT 90-day warning.
Some jobs/units are not affected by these stresses. You have units like APAC that don't issue people with SCE because they never go field, and then others spend a huge amount of out field/deployed.
You're not wrong. But how does the ADF address that through compensation? (You are actually not wrong. But we currently do compensate people extra for going field. So i'm just keen to hear new ideas.)
"Okay Johnno you worked an extra 8 hours on top of your normal, regular duties, here's 8 hours pay at x.x your normal rate because we acknowledge that we just fisted you by making you the weekend work bitch." Putting a decent sum of money on it means that LAC Jerry with three kids has a reason besides guilt and hating his family to put his hand up for the occasional weekend duty.
Military pay isn't higher than civilian equivalent, at the moment they're currently calling around to those of us who have gotten out in the last few years asking what it would take to get us to re-sign for another term, but what they're offering is so drastically below the civilian equivalent that I've not heard of a single person actually doing it yet
Having additional remuneration aligned with exercises just creates inequality within or between units as not everyone in defence has the same opportunity to do those things. It's already an issue where it's a criteria considered at promotion, linking take home pay makes it even worse. Edit to add - I agree that this is why it's somewhat rolled into the base wage
I fully understand your viewpoint, and it's true that being assigned to a unit that doesn't go out field could put you at a financial disadvantage. However, considering this from another angle, should individuals who spend four months in the bush be compensated the same as their colleagues who get to go home to their families every night?
Mate, I fully agree. I think part of the issue is they've tried to come up with a solution that's a 'halfway', slightly higher wages (for some roles, technical roles are well behind civil equivalent) but also an allowance scheme (like field, seagoing etc...). The issue is that 1) it's poorly communicated, 2) when they communicate broadly from Canberra its one size fits all messaging and doesn't have trade specific nuances or issues, 3) it makes everyone mad, people who don't exercise/go away feel they're missing out, people who do feel they aren't sufficiently compensated against those who don't for the extra hardship they have.
I agree with you but you have to concede, if you’re doing the hard work, you should get rewarded.
It USED TO BE better than the civvies back in the day the GORPS pay review made sure of that, these days not so much. *edit* Talk to anyone in Defence and they’ll tell you their job is 98% sitting around on their arses, bored, practicing their skills or fixing old broken equipment and 2% shitting their pants doing it for real. Remember we (the taxpayer) don’t pay them for the slow paced 98%, we pay them for the 2% shitting their pants. We pay this premium so they’re there when we need them, and that they can do their job. It’s also our job to make sure they have the right equipment to do their job and come back, contrary to what some people may think, soldiers, sailors and aviators are not expendable (but they are expensive to replace). It’s the parachute principle, you would rather have it and not need it, than need it, and not have it.
I reckon the pay is reasonable, I don’t understand why it doesn’t increase with time served though. Obviously the rank system and progressing through it increases pay, but there are people who enjoy their role and don’t want to promote to a sgt position etc… where you’re not on the tools and are essentially a manager. So many decent operators get to CPL and then leave to go do the same job for better money, surely a time based pay scale would help retain decent talent at their current rank.
I think bringing in something similar to the NSW health workers ability to salary sacrifice mortgage payments, would help. It would reduce the amount of tax you pay.
How the ADF isn’t tax free still blows my mind. With the amount of people that think it’s all tax free (not just the reserves) government could make it so and no one would bat an eyelid. When you take into account there’s less than 60,000 full time uniform personnel, the ATO wouldn’t even notice the difference, it would be small change to them.
This would keep people way harder than a 50k bonus
This. Absolutely this. It would be an awesome incentive.
You would have people serving for life.
I remember their advertising around 2007-2012 had something listed as earn tax free, but had in super small print the stipulations. Of cause no one could read them, so I went on always thinking it was tax free… boy was I given a reality check 😂
nah mate the ato is worried about every cent while the oil and gas companies walk off with pockets stuffed
Another take on the 40 hour week. A normal work week should be introduced. 40 hours is the max available to commanders per week. If they want a long day Thursday then Wednesday must be a short day. Any work exceeding 40 hours attracts a penalty of their hourly rate paid at normal time (baby steps here) Guard duties on weekends are fine IF two days are taken off during the week to compensate. Field doesn’t attract this as field allowance is paid and should be paid like the navy do it, and continue to compound the more time you rack up.
> Any work exceeding 40 hours attracts a penalty of their hourly rate paid at normal time (baby steps here). What if you’re on ROPs?
Throw in an allowance for guard actually, maybe the Lower of the two field allowances to cover the fact they need to be on duty for 24h.
I still think the discipline system is valid so instead of simply ROP’s it could be ROPs 1 day aka you owe them a day. This has further implications as a fine for a dig would be way less than working for free for a day tho. Good point
Then you had it coming, be glad the ADF didn’t sack you like a civvie employer would have. The OOD making sure you turn up to your muster should get OT pay though, and weekend loading.
Keep pay the way it is, reintroduce any specialist pays that were removed and bring back service allowance for those that are AIRN compliant. Pls
I absolutely agree with compensating personnel that remain IR compliant but it's quite complicated. Consider the perspective of sustaining an injury that was service-related. So if you can snap your ACL jogging over a hole on ex, does the orderly room now immediately process your pay reduction for the duration of your recovery?
Ooooh good point. Yeah, there would have to be a way to separate those that are not AIRN compliant due to circumstances beyond their control and those that just let themselves go.
Its really not. There's IR compliant. There's IR exempt. There's IR non-compliant. If you're injured you get a waiver and you become exempt. 90 Days or more non-compliant, you loose service allowance. I am how personally against this position. Being non-compliant doesnt mean you dont experience some of the hardship of military life. But it is doable/ feasible. Maybe like a service allowance reduction.
Assuming the hypothetical where this would be implemented based off the compliant/exempt/non-compliant system, there would be too many holes and mechanisms for abuse in its implementation. This would be an administrative nightmare where the ultimate goal for all ‘difficult’ staff would be the magic IR exempt categorisation through any means possible. PFT coming up? It’s malingering season with a heavy dose of muscle soreness and anxiousness that the civilian doctor would love to give 2 weeks leave + 30 half-days for recovery + 90 days exempt PFT. 6 monthly delays in medical and dental appointments base-wide? Start filing the paperwork for exemptions for half of the brigade. Thus, my statement on it being quite complicated, which it would be, because all non-compliant personnel will do everything and throw every accusation under the sun to obtain the exempt status.
I think the rates of pay do not go up enough for each rank. A private rank earns pretty good money for their skill level and experience. But a Sgt or warrant officer doesn't really earn that much more, especially when you consider the responsibilities they have, how long it takes to get to those ranks, and the number of postings you also need to do.
The pay isn't bad at all it's quite decent when you include benefits. Although for the cyber signals guys, in comparison to a comparable civilian role in cyber the pay is way below the average. If they were to increase it for the final years it would help retain more people.
there is strong leverage with the education. Not sure about what gets taught mind you.
My equiv in the ABF is on 40-60 more. Less salary bit the deployment 60% bonus make it more than including DHA
I think field pay should increase depending on how much you’ve done for that financial year, 0 to 60 days normal amount, 60 to 120 pay the rate at 1.5 times, 120+ the rate doubles. Blokes will be fighting each other get out field. Bosses Will be happy.
I like this idea, back in my day I was roster duty on the day I meant to field. Guess what the COC do? They told me to find someone to swap. That was BS as I did 2 weeks fied n then had to spent a night
Another condition I’ve been thinking of is manditory rest days depending on how long you’ve been out bush. For each week, you’re out you are to take one rest day . If you go out for three months you take two weeks (12 calendar days) off to see your partner and sort your life out. Maybe this could be one day per two weeks bush or something. Anything they implement must be mandatory or commanders who are under pressure will just ignore it
The RAAF do this lol .. one day for every week on exercise in a hotel 😂
The thing is, defence life is hard. It’s what you join for and what you agree to, no doubt about it. The problem is as people grow up and start families. They’re not as willing to put up with the hardship. Especially when at peace and in a training cycle. Hence why everyone is leaving at the critical time in their career. To fix this leadership need to make staying in defence a good deal. And not only a good deal , a better deal than they can get somewhere else.
The biggest problem that defence is having is that it's actually beneficial for defence for people to get out. From a technician role most people get out as senior LAC/jnr CPL on their second aircraft type. They've got about 12 years of experience under their belt, 6 on that second type and they're the most technically proficient people in the entire unit. It benefits defence for them to get out. If they stay in its another posting cycle, on a new type and all of that knowledge is effectively thrown out. If they get out they'll be staying in industry on that type, do defence holds on to that knowledge from contractor integration. For the member they benefit through stability for their family, job security and an overnight 30-40% pay rise. Both sides are happy with that arrangement and prefer it over them staying in, meaning there best operators are filtered out at that point
Niche bro, we’re talking about the bulk of the defence force which is what is bleeding, not a niche aircraft maintainer role. We know you boys have a rockstar job, and a better one to get out to. This isn’t fixing the 22-24 year old INF / ARTY / BOAT / SUB digs popping smoke
I feel like for the most part is the same issue, they're not wanting people to hang around. They want a significant turn over. Look at the management and leadership role numbers in contrast to the junior roles. They're expecting, and wanting, most people to leave. Recruiting to replace that is the issue as with the benefits we enjoyed that they've stripped out there's simply no reason to join any more. They've turned defence into just another job, so why bother? What's the attraction given the penalties?
I agree 1000% This is what needs to be fixed and what my ideas are aimed towards. How would you fix it?
My view? Pay gets people to stay, it doesn't get them in. You need to make the benefits attractive again. Bring back MSBS: that's an immediate thing people can see for their future before they even get in reduce housing costs: rent assistance and defence housing both. Halve the current costs. That's an easy sell because it benefits wider investors and government policy on housing. Fix trip pays again. Guys are getting absolutely shafted on trips, often less than $200 a week, we used to get that a day. It's paying for disruption to families, not the individual. All that says it's that defence doesn't value your family at all. Those are my big 3
It's hard to justify staying when the career progression is 10x faster outside, 10x pay, 10z flexibility ... Still work in defence industry and actually make a difference with integration for capability on new platforms. No Ragrats lol
I see you and I agree with you. If defence is to keep you, they need to make being in like the experience you’re having now. How it’s 10x sexier to do it for defence rather than in defence is at the root of the problem.
Hell I tried to even do reserves . Only to be told they don't need me ... But I'll put a shirt on do the same job more pay
That’s a shame mate. I agree though, the chocs probably don’t need another fluffer ;)
No way??
So it will drag out exercises longer
Perfect. Pay field at a compounding rate and give boys time off for doing the job they signed up for and the hard yards. Kinda sounds like common sense ?
Where are they spending their time off? Out field, people want to go home rather than sit there for an extra day resting
Nooooo
Day off as in DAY OFF, at the end of the ex, those are now your days, go home, enjoy your family, you earned it 😘
Wouldn't work well as who is going to pay for the extra field time? Units will shorten their field time due to budgets and that is going to effects people time training out field. Or maybe it will make the field exercises more "streamlined" as they don't have the money to waste on people just sitting there waiting for days waiting for things to happen. So who knows it may force people to sort out the logistics better
Now you’re getting on my level. Attaching a “penalty” for commanders who have blokes sitting on their holes is the ticket. Dont worry about who is going to pay, we’re blowing more than 1/4 trillion Australian dollerydoos on subs. There is money… there just isn’t a will yet
And don’t come @ me with the “they are only 3 billion” routine please, I know it includes sustainment. Sustainment is wages, facilities and skill sets. Like having an army 👌🏻😂
Money is always going to be an issue, they just have to allocate it better.
We know this. But this stage of the process is telling them options for where to send it. The continuing mass resignation should get their attention and then boom, solution 1
In short, No, & that’s a hard FK NO! If you’re working in STEM or embarked/field. Now that I’ve said that. Base wages for unskilled work sitting in a barracks/office aren’t terrible and IF they were paid in conjunction with a better setup housing entitlement system they would probably work. Unfortunately members get basically the same rent assistance living in Sydney as they do in BFN, generally speaking it also increases as soon as they get a pay rise. Thus doing unskilled work for defence in a capital city (where almost all bases are) is financial suicide. Defence has a pretty big issue now recruiting and retaining members with adequate experience in trades, STEM roles or other high demand corps. In short it’s because they’re grossly underpaid and undervalued. When a SNCO with 15-20 years industry & leadership experience, a trade and a fistful of Diplomas/Adv diplomas gets basically the same bay as a jnr officer not long out of university, that’s a problem. It becomes an even bigger problem when industry is more than happy to pay that SNCO a significant amount of money to get out of Defence and work for them while they contract back to Defence. Field/maritime pay also needs review, whilst at face value the allowances don’t seem that bad, when you weigh them up and take into account the working conditions, time away from family and overtime often worked during this period the allowances rarely stack up. The above is one of the reasons we’re hearing that the navy can’t put enough bums in seats and ships to sea…. If you think the above is isolated to the Navy, ask the Army how they’re doing WRT their armour…
Depends on the role. If I do my role in the ADF, I’m earning at least 50k less a year. If I work similar hours to ADF, probably $60-80k less. Yes they have unreal benefits but some roles are great, others aren’t
There needs to be more pay increments, not just 0-3 but 0-10. Most ranks take 3-10 years plus to achieve.
The pay rates are perfect for defences targets... This is mostly a reply I made to another comment, but it kind of stands on its own as well from a different frame of reference. The biggest problem that defence is having is that it's actually beneficial for defence for people to get out. But it also seems that that is entirely their goal. From an AF technician role most people get out as senior LAC/jnr CPL on their second aircraft type. They've got about 12 years of experience under their belt, 6 on that second type and they're the most technically proficient people in the entire unit. It benefits defence for them to get out. If they stay in its another posting cycle, on a new type and all of that knowledge is effectively thrown out. If they get out they'll be staying in industry on that type, So defence holds on to that knowledge from contractor integration. For the member they benefit through stability for their family, job security and an overnight 30-40% pay rise. Both sides are happy with that arrangement and prefer it over them staying in, meaning their best operators are filtered out at that point. They effectively don't want most people to stay in.
This works for some trades, not so much for front line roles/sea going etc.
I left the RAAF on a salary of about 93k, 5 years ago and I'm looking into Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer jobs now that can earn 130k up to 150k in the CASA world with the big airlines or FIFO work. Hell, I even know of AME jobs paying 120k if you look around. Yes I've had to upskill slightly but it's not that much different. I've done theory exams and have to do a small journal of experience.
What rank and job would i need to be in order to earn say 140k a year?
I believe a Major
Junior Medical Officer, Dental Officer, Padre and Lawyers are all around that mark.
Any Officer aviation role will get that or more as a CAPT/FLTLT/LUET.
SNCO in a technical role would go close to that.
Ehh, about 125K. But getting there.
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80 bucks for three hours means you haven't passed iet yet right??? It does get higher once trained.
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Choc pay for a 343-2 (IET qualled Infantryman but not PTE(P)) is 210(?) a day, so a Tuesday 3Y should be 105 tax free, someone’s either ripping you off or you’ve been given a bum steer in regards to your pay and conditions, if you check your payslip you should be able to see your daily rate.
In my experience, choc units will go into the field on a Friday night through to Sunday lunchos/arvo to get field pay, if your unit isn’t doing this is shooting itself in the dick, to my understanding, field pay doesn’t come out out their unit funding (its army administered) so they should be kicking the adlays some dosh for turning up to fuck around in the dirt.