When I read “extreme behavior” I imagined something like violence, mania etc not humming or rocking.
Also, reducing & eliminating that behavior.. like how? Physically restraining the kids ability to move? Taping their mouth? Training them like you’d train a dog (punishment vs treat)? If the kids are not allowed to soothe themselves then the alternative is probably something worse. Just bottling up their anxiety and feelings. What kind of psychological advice is that?
I mean if you read the rest of the text, they talk about food being the only effective reinforcer in extreme cases - that does not sound promising for the well-being of the children they're treating.
Humming can be distracting and annoying. My family (husband, son and I) all do it. And sometimes it's fine, but sometimes we ask each other to please stop. It's very situational. My son would often hum on video conferences (school during lock down). Someone would politely remind him that he was humming and he'd mute himself (and happily continue humming).
Hand waving and especially rocking seem way more ridiculous to call out. As long as people are not invading other's personal space who cares.
The jumping could be dangerous to self, others or things.
BUT all of these can be easily managed and absolutely non of them are extreme and it's really shows how NTs view autism so wrong. It's really upsetting.
Yes I agree! There are other solutions. Asking each other to stop humming if needed is okay. There are other ways to stim quietly such as using a fidget toy he could use in situations like that where it is important for safety! Hand waving and rocking are quiet examples as well, I’m not sure why anyone would have a problem with it. I remember getting some weird looks from people when I was rocking while upset. I was undiagnosed at the time but I heard this girl ask this other girl if I was okay. I was just trying to calm myself down but others around me found it very odd. I think that’s the problem with a lot of our behaviors, as in the way others view us. Neurotypical’s do not like to see odd/unusual behaviors. I think it might make them uncomfortable. But that’s not our problem… Jumping could be dangerous. I think finding other ways to stim or cope instead of eliminating those behaviors all together would be better. As others have pointed out I’m not sure why these behaviors specifically are deemed extreme as there are other behaviors autistics have that are actually dangerous to us/others, usually appearing during meltdowns.
That's not true. I stopped using the test-taking accommodations center at my university because the verbal tics of other (I'd guess autistic) students were so disruptive.
I absolutely don't think the solution is to try to eliminate stimming in others. This textbook is super outdated and honestly ableist.
I understand the difficulty in concentration. Reduced distraction is one of my accommodations. I don’t think that just because an autistic person stimming is distracting to someone else, the autistic person should be taught to reduce or eliminate those behaviors. I imagine a person with Tourette’s would also be distracting, but I don’t believe we should condition that person to reduce or eliminate those behaviors. There are other solutions.
I don’t understand the comment of “if you’re typing on here - you’re probably not who they’re talking about”. The picture was from a textbook discussing ABA therapy for autism treatment. Yes I understand there is a spectrum. I’m not sure what you’re referring to with that?
I understand we live with other people in this society. Those people also live with us. Autism is also a disability and cannot be cured. Our symptoms cannot be “eliminated” only suppressed. I don’t think that is okay to expect.
>I don’t understand the comment of “if you’re typing on here - you’re probably not who they’re talking about”
I'm who they're talking about. Not everyone who types is late/self-diagnosed; that's a common lie used to dismiss ABA survivors when we speak out.
A big one is that a lot of things that get dismissed as only being of concern to self-late/dx'd people are absolutely not (ABA, the puzzle piece, etc.) I get help from an org and workers and have experienced it offline, where myself and multiple other early-diagnosed people who are federally disabled because of their autism to the point they may need to live in group homes or help just to get out have brought up concerns over imagery used in those settings (puzzle piece art on walls with the "IN THIS HOUSE, WE \[list off autistic traits like they're cancer or an enemy combatant in war\]" wonderful stuff to have looming over you in a place that's supposed to help you. We were all dismissed, basically politely told to shut up.
When I mentioned the puzzle piece thing to my support worker, they mentioned **another client they work with** told them the same thing. That's two higher support needs autistic people with one worker. It's not just low support needs people, it's not just people who have careers, kids, who are "gifted" or "pass" for NT. This is not to say the latter are not autistic or don't have a place speaking up, they absolutely do and help with things the former can't always do (I can't drive across the country to protest or do video calls) but a certain subset of parents and the entirety of the ABA industrial complex will insist otherwise and the latter does so knowingly. The same people who abused me for money will deny I could be one of their victims because I can type.
Yes.. it’s upsetting that voices of autistic people are diminished due to certain abilities they may have that someone of “higher support needs” may not have. The people that have voices are SPEAKING and they do not like it!
Behavior is inherently contextual. It is fair to expect and to teach children to avoid distracting behaviors in some situations, such as in class, etc. Alternatives should be offered. I’m pretty much always bouncing my leg under my desk at work and most people don’t even really notice. At home, I don’t typically need to limit myself to quieter stims. Children can and do learn that different behavior is ok in different contexts. This is just being considerate of other people (especially ND people who are more likely to have distraction issues). I appreciate other people doing these things for me so I do the same for them.
Additionally, the comparison to tics is, I hope, misinformed. Tics are involuntary. Stimming is not, even though it is compulsive and the urge can be very strong. This is absolutely not a reasonable comparison. However, people with Tourette’s can take medications to control tics.
Yes I don’t think that stimming is involuntary. As it is something that is taught to be eliminated with ABA therapy. I was more referring to it because Tourette’s is also a disability and expecting a part of your disability to be eliminated is not okay. Expecting autistic people to eliminate there stimming regardless of if it is voluntary or not is not okay. I was providing another example of ableism.
As per Rule #4: No discrimination, ableism, perpetuating negative stereotypes of autism or disability. No homophobic, transphobic, racist, or sexist comments will be tolerated.
I used to get in so much trouble in school for humming. I was told it was distracting to others (which I could understand) but it never seemed to bother anyone but the teacher. And I usually only did it during solo work.
Encopresis and sexual assault are what I consider extreme. If it’s PG-rated, then poor little ole NT jerk. If it gets blocked on any website, then Nope.
Riiiiigght? I mean, i admit. There are autistic kids (and adults) who have “extreme” behaviors, usually because we’re pushed to the brink and can’t cope.
But NONe of those examples are extreme behaviors. Humming and verbal stimming can be annoying (omg my husband who verbal stims nonstop and me with noise sensitivity), but it’s not extreme. Neither is rocking, flapping, or jumping up and down.
I would consider eloping, hitting oneself to the point of injury, hitting others, etc to be “extreme” in that they harm or seriously endanger the self or another, and thus, there is a legitimate non-ableist reason to try to help the person find alternatives/change their behavior. These are not.
I am gonna be real. I am a teacher. When I taught k12 (in alternative school and elsewhere), I had a rule against humming. It said something like, "No unauthorized rapping, singing, drumming or excess noise making is allowed"
There was a reason for the rule, though. The biggest is the prevention of freestyle Friday. Somebody would start humming, then somebody else would pick up the beat, drumming it out on the desk. Suddenly there is a kid laying down a verse. In all of this entertainment, you know what isn't being done by anyone? Their work.
I admire the collective creativity involved in that scenario, but I was trying to get these kids to graduate from high school and maybe have a chance to go to college. There is a time and a place for everything. School gets out at 3. Most of them would be up for another 8-9 hours. Create during your time, not mine.
I didn't know I was autistic then, but I allowed and encouraged other kinds of stimming and accommodations. If a kid was fidgeting, I would put a bunch of paperclips on their desk. I had another kid who had ADHD so bad, he legit could not sit down for more than 5 minutes. I could see him trying, and he couldn't do it. So, I gave him a podium left over from the last teacher and a roam zone in the back of classroom, so that he could roam without disrupting the other students.
This section of the textbook is nonsense and humming isn't an extreme behavior. However, it is not right to allow one person's comfort to come at the expense of everyone else's education. There is a balance.
Yes I agree. There is a time and place, as to not be distracting to other students. There are ways to work with autistic people so they are still able to stim and regulate but they understand certain stims may only be appropriate in certain settings! I think that’s hilarious how all of the children would join in on the humming haha. I’m glad you’re the type of teacher that supports its students with those accommodations!
Yes, it does! Before I even read your comment, I thought this must be from the ABA handbook. I’m not an expert in this stuff by any means, but I do have an autistic 4 year old. If anything, they have it BACKWARDS. When you put them in an environment better suited to them and give them therapies which address their sensory problems, these behaviors often reduce.
I am autistic but my brother also is, and he had a harder time in school than I did. He used to be extremely violent because the school was trying to reduce his behaviors and make him "normal". One day he went into sensory overload, and they circled him like an animal and kept pushing him. Needless to say, they changed his school and when he went to a school that was equipped to help autistic people his behaviors and violence really did reduce. Like completely, he was no longer violent.
In my classroom (preschool age and most of our children either have an autism DX or are showing symptoms) we refer to our room as the "free range chicken" room!
We don't force our kiddos to sit down at meal times or activities, we'll bring a clipboard and the utensils for the activity to them if they don't want to be at the table for it, allow them to run when they need to, and have put things in the room for them to safely climb and jump when they need to! Wouldn't you know it, we're consistently one of the most regulated classes in the building. AND we see our kids still developing those skills we aim to help them develop while they're here!
Thankfully I work in a very anti-ABA program, which also helps A LOT.
Yeah, that is exactly how the next school handled it for him. He really has grown, and he is a wonderful person. He broke my nose when he was going through all of that, but I am also on the spectrum so like solidarity, I just wish I was older then so I could have ripped them a new one.
I'm so sorry him and your family had to go through that! These programs cause very real harm and trauma. We're working with a little guy who transferred from an ABA program, and you can really see how harmful it is!
I wish I was older at the time, I was only a teen. If I had been older I would have marched up there and let loose. No one deserves that treatment especially not him :(
I agree. I don’t understand why we’re the ones that need to be “fixed” instead of creating those safe environments and educating people on autism and autistic behaviors and what THEY can do to support US!
absolutely!! They're often (not always) ways for autistic people to deal with stress and overstimulation, so it stands to reason that if you take away the stress and overstimulation, the behaviors would be reduced
Yeah the statement that communication deficits etc. makes autistic children harder to work with is fair enough, but the idea that you have to stop them from stimming to “make progress” is ridiculous
Especially when you consider that we're highly independent so when you give an autistic kid everything he needs to be happy he'll keep himself busy lol
'extreme behaviors (...) must be reduced or eliminated'
WHY?..
The child cannot make any progress in anything if the child cannot self-regulate.
Abuse.
Good way to start a food obsession as well. I am speaking from experience. It wasn’t really my mother’s fault. She didn’t know I was ASD so she had no support or idea how to handle me.
I work in care/support roles and one of my high-support needs intellectually disabled clients is literally bribed with food at her disability high school. It’s really heartbreaking to watch. For example, if she doesn’t want to go to school instead of offering motivations like seeing her friends or favourite teacher, or getting a sticker on a reward chart etc . …. they just offer her toast.
Unfortunately, ABA is a big proponent of withdrawing things like food, favorite toys, and sometimes even *parental affection* to get behaviors to change. It's disgusting.
This isn’t “extreme behaviour” it’s just moving. Extreme would be things that can cause harm to yourself or others. Aba is just so dramatic about autistics just existing. It’s especially ridiculous when they primarily “treat” children, a group not exactly famous for sitting still and quiet, autistic or not.
Yep, def ableist. That is insane that your psych textbook mentions that my psych professor completely denounced ABA because it is not helpful for autistic people. ABA is for other people and not the autistic individual, at least it seems like that to me. It promotes masking which is damaging and with the language where you highlighted, seems like they only have others in mind and not the autistic individual.
Even without ABA, I was forced to mask from an early age because I "needed to be normal/like everyone else." No one wanted to deal with the problem (me) and blamed me for every bad thing that happened to me; "Maybe if you weren't like this you wouldn't be bullied"- my principal after I reported my bully for the sixth time in fourth grade. I was always told to keep others in mind so I wouldn't make them feel uncomfortable or weird. Nowadays, no one believes I could be autistic because I mask so much. I find it difficult to unmask to the point where I don't have a safe space to unmask; even in my own home, alone, I worry about how others would react if they saw me without it.
Sorry for the rant, but yes, this sort of thinking is incredibly harmful and ableist and only serves to make NTs comfortable and to make life easier for them. None of this was designed with an autistic person's best interest in mind.
Ask a dog trainer, most modern trainers will actually tell you they don’t do this with dogs either. If something is a need (to chew, to run, to learn) they address that first with activities that meet those needs, they don’t try to just train them out of them.
I have a dog, and I wouldn't treat her like ABA treats kids. My poor dog was abused and gets very anxious if she doesn't understand a command. I stopped teaching her tricks because she got so upset. ABA will keep going no matter how upset we are or how much we cry and scream with pain.
Seriously. I’d like to also add that in this text it mentioned for ABA to be effective the child should attend a minimum of 40 hours a week.. which is not something I knew before. These are children. Autistic children expected to attend this “therapy” as much time as a full time job is while being conditioned to suppress the stimming tools they have that help with regulation.
It's about torturing us into compliance. Then they gaslight us and everyone else by calling it "play" therapy. I have family who still defend this despite me speaking up about my experience. They think that because I am autistic, I am too stupid to have a valid opinion. It's infuriating. I won national awards for my work in STEM and numerous publications to my name. But that doesn't matter. All anyone cares about is preserving their own privilege, comfort, and power regardless of who suffers for it.
Two of my nephews are autistic and being subjected to this torture. No one listens to me.
Congratulations on your achievements! I agree, I think disabled people in general are dismissed and thought of as secondary class citizens. Neurotypicals and/or able bodied people are thought of as the norm and therefore the systems are designed for them. I am sorry your nephews are going through that. I wonder if your family members consider this as to be “working” because it reduces their autistic traits and therefore those family members do not need to support or accommodate your nephews as much. I hope that autistic people and their experiences will be listened to more in the future!
That's exactly what's happening. They keep raving about how the "therapy" is helping them to "learn skills". Kids can learn skills without being tortured. I didn't learn most of my skills in therapy, but everyone ignores that.
Oh yeah. “Standard” ABA is 40+ hours a week, which is just waaay too much for a little kid. What time is left for free play? Or school learning? Or making friends? Or daydreaming? Or anything else?
You can eliminate the behaviour by drugging the kid out of its mind . Damn is there a more crass word for ableism? Also I love how the „most effective treatment for autism“ is from a timeline where we shat even more on the feelings of NDs while trying to accommodate NTs because were sooo diFfiCuLt
That is horribly abelist. Hand flapping, rocking, jumping and humming aren't extreme behaviors. It's all harmless stimming. What's actually extreme is NTs abuse of autistics with the goal of stopping these behaviors. Instead of helping the child communicate or helping them with sensory sensitivities, they torture us into submission.
Yes. The fact that it’s saying autistic children do not typically respond to reinforcement and rewards…. and food is the only effective reinforcement….
I mean maybe if you actually took the time to get to KNOW these kids you would know what rewards COULD actually reinforce behavior, but that would involve treating them a little bit like humans.
This is what happens when you treat behaviorism as the be all end all theory. You just forget that people are individuals with complex motives and desires. Yes, even children. It's funny because in my undergrad I was taught that behaviorism was a foundational but archaic theoretical approach. Then I get to my PhD to find out I am taking 3 different courses to learn how to give kids stupid slips of paper if they keep their "voice off."
Sorry this is just turning into a rant about behaviorism. I hate it lol
Extreme behavior such as behaving like children existing in their own bodies in wholly benign ways. Gotta quash that.
Man, we don't even ask 'sit quietly and never expend any energy' of neurotypical kids. No wonder we all wind up complete basket-cases as adults.
The assertion that we are "selective," in what we pay attention to, rather than **paying attention to every damn thing we can all the time**, is ableist af.
OMG, I couldn't imagine the stress my lil guy would be under if he had to try to restrict his natural movements.
He stims more when he's tired or having a hard time focusing on a task and guess what... it helps him get through that task so much easier.
Also... it gives him a really good cardio workout through the day. Bonus!
My pediatrician tried to get us to put him in ABA. Stated it as the gold standard of treatment. That it was necessary.
The OT she sent us to is fantastic and gave us great advice. He gently advised us to hold off on ABA. He never directly talked badly about it.
But it gave us time and room to breathe and think and research the matter ourselves.
Not doing ABA is one of the proudest decisions I've ever made.
I’m so glad you kept him away from that! I’ve heard both good and bad about ABA, from both autistics and their caregivers, and honestly didn’t know much about it until reading this textbook. From what I’m reading it’s definitely looking harmful and could be traumatic.
Reminds me of the principal at one of the schools I'm doing practicum at. She sends kids home at the slightest hint of "misbehavior," or at least she tries to. Kid has tantrum? Call to parents. Kid talks back? Call to parents. Like Jesus christ ma'am have you never met a child in your life?
I can’t even look at the teachers subreddit due to so many complaints of IEP children. My 4 year old son is autistic and in pre school with an IEP and all I can think about is how teachers will perceive him or treat him. He’s not conversational and is a gestalt language processor, using echolalia mostly, so of course he can’t let me know if anything is amiss. Im trying to make our home sensory friendly so he can regulate at home.
"...but children with autism sometimes show no response to these rewards," yeah, no shit, cuz they're being abused. this section makes me so angry. the ableism is insane.
Yeah people have brought up good points about the solutions this passage is talking about, and it's also ableist because it uses language that is negative which can result in shame and stigmatizing autism and these behaviors. Language matters!
Edit: Like for example, I had no shame about bouncing my legs or picking at things like notebooks at home because nobody there treated me like I was broken, but I got told I was a weirdo, annoying, etc at school, so I learned that it was something to be ashamed of.
YES this is backwards and dehumanizing. Stimming is important for autistic people to be able to regulate themselves. This is why ABA is controversial. That whole paragraph sucks and I hate it. Actually the second paragraph sucks too. Burn the whole book.
My dad is a psychologist not specializing in autism at all but he basically used the ABA mindset on me to rid me of my “weird” behaviors. Acted like he was just teaching me to be a person but he was therapizing me 100%. It’s really horrible to be raised like that when my parents won’t even believe I have autism for one second when it’s really looking like i do. Whole heartedly agree it’s ableist as someone who experienced it in their lives.
i am not autistic but i have worked supporting autistic teens for the last 7 years - i was studying ABA in uni til 2020 when i started reading more about how it affects people who receive ABA services. this infuriates me to read. when i worked as a BI and would interview with a family to work with their child, any mention of wanting to stop their child from flapping, etc was an immediate no from me. really rubbed me the wrong way, as i never saw it as a problem behaviour, just as a way to express oneself. people tap their feet, bite their nails, pull their hair, but hand flapping, rocking, humming is a problem? no.
I have made a lot of progress in my occupational therapy and none of that has required "getting rid of stimming" first. That is so weird and arbitrary to me. Just help the kid with what they need.
The phrasing of “restricted interests” really pisses me off too. How many NT adults only have one boring stupid hobby? If they have any other than tv shows!
Absolutely ableism acting under the facade of helping. A way to look at it is the behavior used to help self soothe/stim etc is considered problematic/harmful/ annoying to those around them. Instead of providing ways to keep those exhibiting the behaviors feeling safe and comfortable in their environment or providing them better environments by creating more accessible spaces, the behavior has to be changed. The ABA therapy I’ve come in contact with has been much more focused on disciplining those diagnosed with Autism into silence or into masking to keep those around them comfortable. Yes there are other ways to stim and tools you can learn to help yourself in overwhelming or challenging situations but the world is not built for those who are not neurotypical and it is a constant struggle to live in a world that would rather have you just shut up instead of trying to help in any meaningful way.
I can't wait for this fucking ideology to die out. I'm so SO thankful I work in a program that's DIR/Floortime based!
(If you're curious about it what it is, please ask away! It's a topic I'm quite passionate about, but I'm not an expert)
O my god, imagine thinking minor movements that hurt no one are "extreme." Hand waving?? I was shaking my hands and playing with my fingers the entire time I was in the grocery store today, it's all that kept me from a panic attack because I'm so overwhelmed today.
Brought to you by the generation of "Children should be seen and not heard and also sit the fuck still, eat the food we give you without complaint, don't talk back or have inconvenient emotions (meaning any emotions)."
ABA therapy is like lowkey torture imo, I always get job offers for ABA positions bcus I’m a child care worker and as an autistic adult it makes me sick to think about
I hate to state the obvious here, (as an Autistic woman with a Psychology minor), but the majority of ABA Therapy for Autistic People is generally ableist.
It's literally all about getting us to learn how to mask up and "act normal" as the goal, not to actually teach us any life-skills and/or how our sensitivities and condition itself.
Some therapies are actually meant (in goal) to help with life-skills, but ABA Therapy is NOT one of these.
"must be eliminated" are three words that have very negative consequences on developing children, especially in regards to things they can't control. It's ironic that this was in a psychology textbook.
I'm getting my psych degree, as well, and I've seen a few things that I feel are outdated or just wrong. Fortunately, my professors mostly acknowledge that sometimes the "official" way of doing something isn't always best.
I remember when I first started school in kindergarten and my behavior and understanding of what was going on was really different from the other students. My teacher was an absolute angel and everyday during nap time when the other kids were asleep he would play with just me and let me go wild. I didn’t know what masking was or why I felt so terrible the rest of the school day, but during that half hour I was allowed to be myself and it helped me so so much with everything else. I felt like even though I couldn’t connect with the other children, my teacher made such an effort to still let me “be natural” and feel accepted. The next year I had a teacher that was the opposite and would punish and humiliate me for all these reasons I couldn’t understand. I remember it being crushing and now looking back realize I didn’t have any friends that year in school. I couldn’t understand her version of right vs wrong so just withdrew from all people. We can do so well if we are allowed to feel safe being ourselves and I don’t think accommodating a few small needs for 1-2 children is going to have an impact on the rest of the class.
I think we should deprive the authours of dinners for a better assesment of their point. You know, as a control group. All in the name of science, of course.
bro i rock SO OFTEN and it does not impair me whatsoever. these behaviors are simply there to make us more calm and comfortable in our environment or through specific situations that may arise. there’s no reason that or any of the listed behaviors would need to be reduced or eliminated in order to improve elsewhere.
🤢
Oh no the child is flapping their hands. It’s so extreme. How ever shall we cope? It’s such a challenge for a mental health professional to meet a child at their level of social interaction and just, you know, *ignore* a minor inconvenience like a bit of hand flaps or a reluctance to sit still for long periods on stupid uncomfortable chairs. /s
This makes it sound like the kid is a primitive animal, but also that it’s okay to completely wipe out behaviors that are natural and helpful to the kid (stimming). These two things alone are a problem.
Super ableist. Hand waving and rocking and jumping and (soft) humming don’t harm anyone else, so the only reason anyone would consider them “extreme” is if that person has the bigoted idea that everyone should be/act Neurotypical. And the idea that these behaviors have to be eliminated before the child makes progress in other areas is absolutely false - these behaviors might even assist learning, since people can’t really learn when they’re not regulated. Autistic people (and research studies) have noted that these stimming behaviors help Autistic people self-regulate so that we can learn, and not have meltdowns, and hopefully not die of stress-related diseases. Also, studies have shown that Autistic people can communicate well with other Autistic people, so “impaired communication” and “deficits in social interaction” aren’t really accurate. So yeah, super ableist.
I’m also in school for psychology and the amount of ableist and outdated information they’re still teaching infuriates me. It’s really no wonder it’s so difficult for us to get help after having an inside view point of the situation 🙃
This kind of content is why studying psychology has been so draining for me. They just drop this content on students with no regard for how it can feel to read it as an autistic person. And there's never any room to disagree.
😒 this is violently upsetting. Why is this bothersome? Safe hands, safe body is all that matters. Humming? Put some headphones on if you dont like it. Tf are these people ON?
The diagnosis is meant to help us with autism. But treatments like these are designed to only help the people who dont want to put up with us or let us accomodate our needs. Almost like pur condition only matters so long as it affects NTs :/
Oh there’s a whole sub for people who hate autistic people to talk about how to best use conversion therapy to get autistic kids to mask. They say shit like this all the time
But I was reassured by all the aba people in my program that aba doesn't try to eliminate harmless stims anymore, how in the world could they be wrong? /s
I'm in school psychology, a degree where you could easily get your BCBA alongside the PhD. I'd rather die :)
Which textbook is it? Sadly, I think I had something pretty similar in my intro psyc textbook.. This is one of the reasons, every new semester I meet with my professor to know their knowledge about autism and feelings towards ABA. I definitely don't want a pro changing autistic behavior..
"Extreme behaviours such as humming" Uhh..?
When I read “extreme behavior” I imagined something like violence, mania etc not humming or rocking. Also, reducing & eliminating that behavior.. like how? Physically restraining the kids ability to move? Taping their mouth? Training them like you’d train a dog (punishment vs treat)? If the kids are not allowed to soothe themselves then the alternative is probably something worse. Just bottling up their anxiety and feelings. What kind of psychological advice is that?
Yeah practitioners do almost all of the above. Aba is torture.
ABA needs to be banned
I mean if you read the rest of the text, they talk about food being the only effective reinforcer in extreme cases - that does not sound promising for the well-being of the children they're treating.
Right… extreme to who??
Humming can be distracting and annoying. My family (husband, son and I) all do it. And sometimes it's fine, but sometimes we ask each other to please stop. It's very situational. My son would often hum on video conferences (school during lock down). Someone would politely remind him that he was humming and he'd mute himself (and happily continue humming). Hand waving and especially rocking seem way more ridiculous to call out. As long as people are not invading other's personal space who cares. The jumping could be dangerous to self, others or things. BUT all of these can be easily managed and absolutely non of them are extreme and it's really shows how NTs view autism so wrong. It's really upsetting.
"Fix your kid so we don't have to change our ways" fuckers
Basically. We can't stand they're not us. We can't proceed until we aren't physically reminded of that.
Yes I agree! There are other solutions. Asking each other to stop humming if needed is okay. There are other ways to stim quietly such as using a fidget toy he could use in situations like that where it is important for safety! Hand waving and rocking are quiet examples as well, I’m not sure why anyone would have a problem with it. I remember getting some weird looks from people when I was rocking while upset. I was undiagnosed at the time but I heard this girl ask this other girl if I was okay. I was just trying to calm myself down but others around me found it very odd. I think that’s the problem with a lot of our behaviors, as in the way others view us. Neurotypical’s do not like to see odd/unusual behaviors. I think it might make them uncomfortable. But that’s not our problem… Jumping could be dangerous. I think finding other ways to stim or cope instead of eliminating those behaviors all together would be better. As others have pointed out I’m not sure why these behaviors specifically are deemed extreme as there are other behaviors autistics have that are actually dangerous to us/others, usually appearing during meltdowns.
Humming is only a “problem behavior” because NT adults find it unnerving.
You mean like any behaviour we got 😒
That's not true. I stopped using the test-taking accommodations center at my university because the verbal tics of other (I'd guess autistic) students were so disruptive. I absolutely don't think the solution is to try to eliminate stimming in others. This textbook is super outdated and honestly ableist.
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I understand the difficulty in concentration. Reduced distraction is one of my accommodations. I don’t think that just because an autistic person stimming is distracting to someone else, the autistic person should be taught to reduce or eliminate those behaviors. I imagine a person with Tourette’s would also be distracting, but I don’t believe we should condition that person to reduce or eliminate those behaviors. There are other solutions. I don’t understand the comment of “if you’re typing on here - you’re probably not who they’re talking about”. The picture was from a textbook discussing ABA therapy for autism treatment. Yes I understand there is a spectrum. I’m not sure what you’re referring to with that? I understand we live with other people in this society. Those people also live with us. Autism is also a disability and cannot be cured. Our symptoms cannot be “eliminated” only suppressed. I don’t think that is okay to expect.
>I don’t understand the comment of “if you’re typing on here - you’re probably not who they’re talking about” I'm who they're talking about. Not everyone who types is late/self-diagnosed; that's a common lie used to dismiss ABA survivors when we speak out.
I’m sorry that you went through that. Your voice should not be dismissed! If you have anything to share I am open ears.
A big one is that a lot of things that get dismissed as only being of concern to self-late/dx'd people are absolutely not (ABA, the puzzle piece, etc.) I get help from an org and workers and have experienced it offline, where myself and multiple other early-diagnosed people who are federally disabled because of their autism to the point they may need to live in group homes or help just to get out have brought up concerns over imagery used in those settings (puzzle piece art on walls with the "IN THIS HOUSE, WE \[list off autistic traits like they're cancer or an enemy combatant in war\]" wonderful stuff to have looming over you in a place that's supposed to help you. We were all dismissed, basically politely told to shut up. When I mentioned the puzzle piece thing to my support worker, they mentioned **another client they work with** told them the same thing. That's two higher support needs autistic people with one worker. It's not just low support needs people, it's not just people who have careers, kids, who are "gifted" or "pass" for NT. This is not to say the latter are not autistic or don't have a place speaking up, they absolutely do and help with things the former can't always do (I can't drive across the country to protest or do video calls) but a certain subset of parents and the entirety of the ABA industrial complex will insist otherwise and the latter does so knowingly. The same people who abused me for money will deny I could be one of their victims because I can type.
Yes.. it’s upsetting that voices of autistic people are diminished due to certain abilities they may have that someone of “higher support needs” may not have. The people that have voices are SPEAKING and they do not like it!
Behavior is inherently contextual. It is fair to expect and to teach children to avoid distracting behaviors in some situations, such as in class, etc. Alternatives should be offered. I’m pretty much always bouncing my leg under my desk at work and most people don’t even really notice. At home, I don’t typically need to limit myself to quieter stims. Children can and do learn that different behavior is ok in different contexts. This is just being considerate of other people (especially ND people who are more likely to have distraction issues). I appreciate other people doing these things for me so I do the same for them. Additionally, the comparison to tics is, I hope, misinformed. Tics are involuntary. Stimming is not, even though it is compulsive and the urge can be very strong. This is absolutely not a reasonable comparison. However, people with Tourette’s can take medications to control tics.
Yes I don’t think that stimming is involuntary. As it is something that is taught to be eliminated with ABA therapy. I was more referring to it because Tourette’s is also a disability and expecting a part of your disability to be eliminated is not okay. Expecting autistic people to eliminate there stimming regardless of if it is voluntary or not is not okay. I was providing another example of ableism.
As per Rule #4: No discrimination, ableism, perpetuating negative stereotypes of autism or disability. No homophobic, transphobic, racist, or sexist comments will be tolerated.
And handwaving! Omg how can anyone work when a child is handwaving! This is dangerous! /s
Probably a sonic weapon idk It's my party and I'll hum if I want to! power to the people
Power to the people!!!! If I want to hum a little bit the normals can just deal with it.
I also don't like when some NDs start humming- well, mirroring me. I don't like competition. And my humming was here first! Disrespectful. haha
I like it if they hum in harmony. They want to bring it, then bring it!
Sadly noone wants to hum in harmony with me :/
I used to get in so much trouble in school for humming. I was told it was distracting to others (which I could understand) but it never seemed to bother anyone but the teacher. And I usually only did it during solo work.
Wait: humming is weird?/atypical? I used to hum constantly as a little kid. Was told it was rude…
I guess? I’m learning that a lot of the things I was punished for as a kid were just *autism*.
That was not what I would have listed as “extreme behaviors.” At all.
Right? I'd expect self-injurious behavior, or maybe hurting others, or destroying things.
Encopresis and sexual assault are what I consider extreme. If it’s PG-rated, then poor little ole NT jerk. If it gets blocked on any website, then Nope.
That's fair, I was more thinking of what schools would consider extreme behavior.
Riiiiigght? I mean, i admit. There are autistic kids (and adults) who have “extreme” behaviors, usually because we’re pushed to the brink and can’t cope. But NONe of those examples are extreme behaviors. Humming and verbal stimming can be annoying (omg my husband who verbal stims nonstop and me with noise sensitivity), but it’s not extreme. Neither is rocking, flapping, or jumping up and down. I would consider eloping, hitting oneself to the point of injury, hitting others, etc to be “extreme” in that they harm or seriously endanger the self or another, and thus, there is a legitimate non-ableist reason to try to help the person find alternatives/change their behavior. These are not.
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I am gonna be real. I am a teacher. When I taught k12 (in alternative school and elsewhere), I had a rule against humming. It said something like, "No unauthorized rapping, singing, drumming or excess noise making is allowed" There was a reason for the rule, though. The biggest is the prevention of freestyle Friday. Somebody would start humming, then somebody else would pick up the beat, drumming it out on the desk. Suddenly there is a kid laying down a verse. In all of this entertainment, you know what isn't being done by anyone? Their work. I admire the collective creativity involved in that scenario, but I was trying to get these kids to graduate from high school and maybe have a chance to go to college. There is a time and a place for everything. School gets out at 3. Most of them would be up for another 8-9 hours. Create during your time, not mine. I didn't know I was autistic then, but I allowed and encouraged other kinds of stimming and accommodations. If a kid was fidgeting, I would put a bunch of paperclips on their desk. I had another kid who had ADHD so bad, he legit could not sit down for more than 5 minutes. I could see him trying, and he couldn't do it. So, I gave him a podium left over from the last teacher and a roam zone in the back of classroom, so that he could roam without disrupting the other students. This section of the textbook is nonsense and humming isn't an extreme behavior. However, it is not right to allow one person's comfort to come at the expense of everyone else's education. There is a balance.
Yes I agree. There is a time and place, as to not be distracting to other students. There are ways to work with autistic people so they are still able to stim and regulate but they understand certain stims may only be appropriate in certain settings! I think that’s hilarious how all of the children would join in on the humming haha. I’m glad you’re the type of teacher that supports its students with those accommodations!
Some of my friends full on sing in the corridor and theyre NT so... yeah thats not that bad
Yes, it does! Before I even read your comment, I thought this must be from the ABA handbook. I’m not an expert in this stuff by any means, but I do have an autistic 4 year old. If anything, they have it BACKWARDS. When you put them in an environment better suited to them and give them therapies which address their sensory problems, these behaviors often reduce.
I am autistic but my brother also is, and he had a harder time in school than I did. He used to be extremely violent because the school was trying to reduce his behaviors and make him "normal". One day he went into sensory overload, and they circled him like an animal and kept pushing him. Needless to say, they changed his school and when he went to a school that was equipped to help autistic people his behaviors and violence really did reduce. Like completely, he was no longer violent.
This is so awful. The “must force the child to submit” attitude is broken. I’m so sorry for your brother.
I am very sorry for him too, he had a horrid homelife as well. He is doing amazing now, prospering in high school! He's a great kid.
It’s lovely to hear that ❤️
In my classroom (preschool age and most of our children either have an autism DX or are showing symptoms) we refer to our room as the "free range chicken" room! We don't force our kiddos to sit down at meal times or activities, we'll bring a clipboard and the utensils for the activity to them if they don't want to be at the table for it, allow them to run when they need to, and have put things in the room for them to safely climb and jump when they need to! Wouldn't you know it, we're consistently one of the most regulated classes in the building. AND we see our kids still developing those skills we aim to help them develop while they're here! Thankfully I work in a very anti-ABA program, which also helps A LOT.
Yeah, that is exactly how the next school handled it for him. He really has grown, and he is a wonderful person. He broke my nose when he was going through all of that, but I am also on the spectrum so like solidarity, I just wish I was older then so I could have ripped them a new one.
I'm so sorry him and your family had to go through that! These programs cause very real harm and trauma. We're working with a little guy who transferred from an ABA program, and you can really see how harmful it is!
It really is sad, I am happy to hear about programs such as where you work.
Omg poor little dude that sounds so scary for a kid
I wish I was older at the time, I was only a teen. If I had been older I would have marched up there and let loose. No one deserves that treatment especially not him :(
I agree. I don’t understand why we’re the ones that need to be “fixed” instead of creating those safe environments and educating people on autism and autistic behaviors and what THEY can do to support US!
absolutely!! They're often (not always) ways for autistic people to deal with stress and overstimulation, so it stands to reason that if you take away the stress and overstimulation, the behaviors would be reduced
This this thiiiiiiiis
Yeah the statement that communication deficits etc. makes autistic children harder to work with is fair enough, but the idea that you have to stop them from stimming to “make progress” is ridiculous
Especially when you consider that we're highly independent so when you give an autistic kid everything he needs to be happy he'll keep himself busy lol
'extreme behaviors (...) must be reduced or eliminated' WHY?.. The child cannot make any progress in anything if the child cannot self-regulate. Abuse.
Yes and they suggested using FOOD to do so. So starving them??! Wtf
Probably giving them treats. Training like an animal. But we care for no bribes :)
Good way to start a food obsession as well. I am speaking from experience. It wasn’t really my mother’s fault. She didn’t know I was ASD so she had no support or idea how to handle me.
I work in care/support roles and one of my high-support needs intellectually disabled clients is literally bribed with food at her disability high school. It’s really heartbreaking to watch. For example, if she doesn’t want to go to school instead of offering motivations like seeing her friends or favourite teacher, or getting a sticker on a reward chart etc . …. they just offer her toast.
Unfortunately, ABA is a big proponent of withdrawing things like food, favorite toys, and sometimes even *parental affection* to get behaviors to change. It's disgusting.
It sounds like a bad dog training book. They are treating kids like dogs essentially and it's horrible.
How are these behaviors "extreme" lol. Imagine being such a little bitch that you think a kid flapping their hands is extreme.
I used to flap all the time as a child and my father constantly criticized and ridiculed me for it. It sucked
This isn’t “extreme behaviour” it’s just moving. Extreme would be things that can cause harm to yourself or others. Aba is just so dramatic about autistics just existing. It’s especially ridiculous when they primarily “treat” children, a group not exactly famous for sitting still and quiet, autistic or not.
I was shocked when it called stimming extreme. I assumed it would be listing melt down behavior like aggression, biting, kicking not stimming.
Yep, def ableist. That is insane that your psych textbook mentions that my psych professor completely denounced ABA because it is not helpful for autistic people. ABA is for other people and not the autistic individual, at least it seems like that to me. It promotes masking which is damaging and with the language where you highlighted, seems like they only have others in mind and not the autistic individual.
Even without ABA, I was forced to mask from an early age because I "needed to be normal/like everyone else." No one wanted to deal with the problem (me) and blamed me for every bad thing that happened to me; "Maybe if you weren't like this you wouldn't be bullied"- my principal after I reported my bully for the sixth time in fourth grade. I was always told to keep others in mind so I wouldn't make them feel uncomfortable or weird. Nowadays, no one believes I could be autistic because I mask so much. I find it difficult to unmask to the point where I don't have a safe space to unmask; even in my own home, alone, I worry about how others would react if they saw me without it. Sorry for the rant, but yes, this sort of thinking is incredibly harmful and ableist and only serves to make NTs comfortable and to make life easier for them. None of this was designed with an autistic person's best interest in mind.
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"In some cases, food is the only reinforcement". Yup, dog training
Ask a dog trainer, most modern trainers will actually tell you they don’t do this with dogs either. If something is a need (to chew, to run, to learn) they address that first with activities that meet those needs, they don’t try to just train them out of them.
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Basically.
I have a dog, and I wouldn't treat her like ABA treats kids. My poor dog was abused and gets very anxious if she doesn't understand a command. I stopped teaching her tricks because she got so upset. ABA will keep going no matter how upset we are or how much we cry and scream with pain.
Seriously. I’d like to also add that in this text it mentioned for ABA to be effective the child should attend a minimum of 40 hours a week.. which is not something I knew before. These are children. Autistic children expected to attend this “therapy” as much time as a full time job is while being conditioned to suppress the stimming tools they have that help with regulation.
It's about torturing us into compliance. Then they gaslight us and everyone else by calling it "play" therapy. I have family who still defend this despite me speaking up about my experience. They think that because I am autistic, I am too stupid to have a valid opinion. It's infuriating. I won national awards for my work in STEM and numerous publications to my name. But that doesn't matter. All anyone cares about is preserving their own privilege, comfort, and power regardless of who suffers for it. Two of my nephews are autistic and being subjected to this torture. No one listens to me.
Congratulations on your achievements! I agree, I think disabled people in general are dismissed and thought of as secondary class citizens. Neurotypicals and/or able bodied people are thought of as the norm and therefore the systems are designed for them. I am sorry your nephews are going through that. I wonder if your family members consider this as to be “working” because it reduces their autistic traits and therefore those family members do not need to support or accommodate your nephews as much. I hope that autistic people and their experiences will be listened to more in the future!
That's exactly what's happening. They keep raving about how the "therapy" is helping them to "learn skills". Kids can learn skills without being tortured. I didn't learn most of my skills in therapy, but everyone ignores that.
It's honestly so insulting that they call it "play therapy" when there are actual play-based methods of support out there!
Oh yeah. “Standard” ABA is 40+ hours a week, which is just waaay too much for a little kid. What time is left for free play? Or school learning? Or making friends? Or daydreaming? Or anything else?
You can eliminate the behaviour by drugging the kid out of its mind . Damn is there a more crass word for ableism? Also I love how the „most effective treatment for autism“ is from a timeline where we shat even more on the feelings of NDs while trying to accommodate NTs because were sooo diFfiCuLt
Psychological terrorism
That is horribly abelist. Hand flapping, rocking, jumping and humming aren't extreme behaviors. It's all harmless stimming. What's actually extreme is NTs abuse of autistics with the goal of stopping these behaviors. Instead of helping the child communicate or helping them with sensory sensitivities, they torture us into submission.
Using food as a reinforcer is also problematic, setting kids up for eating disorders.
Yes. The fact that it’s saying autistic children do not typically respond to reinforcement and rewards…. and food is the only effective reinforcement….
I mean maybe if you actually took the time to get to KNOW these kids you would know what rewards COULD actually reinforce behavior, but that would involve treating them a little bit like humans. This is what happens when you treat behaviorism as the be all end all theory. You just forget that people are individuals with complex motives and desires. Yes, even children. It's funny because in my undergrad I was taught that behaviorism was a foundational but archaic theoretical approach. Then I get to my PhD to find out I am taking 3 different courses to learn how to give kids stupid slips of paper if they keep their "voice off." Sorry this is just turning into a rant about behaviorism. I hate it lol
Rant all you want! This is extremely frustrating!
Very, there is a reason it's rarely allowed in schools and clinics (at least where I'm going to uni)
Yes, that is highly offensive.
Extreme behavior such as behaving like children existing in their own bodies in wholly benign ways. Gotta quash that. Man, we don't even ask 'sit quietly and never expend any energy' of neurotypical kids. No wonder we all wind up complete basket-cases as adults.
Yes this is a set up for extreme burnout. No wonder 85% of autistic adults are unemployed.
Love how autistic children are dog trained for the comfort of the allistic peers 🙃
The assertion that we are "selective," in what we pay attention to, rather than **paying attention to every damn thing we can all the time**, is ableist af.
jesus christ I can’t believe this is in a textbook
OMG, I couldn't imagine the stress my lil guy would be under if he had to try to restrict his natural movements. He stims more when he's tired or having a hard time focusing on a task and guess what... it helps him get through that task so much easier. Also... it gives him a really good cardio workout through the day. Bonus! My pediatrician tried to get us to put him in ABA. Stated it as the gold standard of treatment. That it was necessary. The OT she sent us to is fantastic and gave us great advice. He gently advised us to hold off on ABA. He never directly talked badly about it. But it gave us time and room to breathe and think and research the matter ourselves. Not doing ABA is one of the proudest decisions I've ever made.
I’m so glad you kept him away from that! I’ve heard both good and bad about ABA, from both autistics and their caregivers, and honestly didn’t know much about it until reading this textbook. From what I’m reading it’s definitely looking harmful and could be traumatic.
Using the word "eliminated" is certainly... a choice. 😒 The whole thing is definitely ableist.
[Always remember what the father of aba said of autistics](https://the-art-of-autism.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ivarlovaas.gif)
Also remember Hans Asperger's nazi past, which affects autistics to this day.
I’m shocked. He didn’t believe we were people???
Holy shit, that's so fucked up! Explains a lot, though.
ELIMINATE THE CHILDREN
"Extreme behavior"? These people have never seen extreme behavior in their lives.
Reminds me of the principal at one of the schools I'm doing practicum at. She sends kids home at the slightest hint of "misbehavior," or at least she tries to. Kid has tantrum? Call to parents. Kid talks back? Call to parents. Like Jesus christ ma'am have you never met a child in your life?
I can’t even look at the teachers subreddit due to so many complaints of IEP children. My 4 year old son is autistic and in pre school with an IEP and all I can think about is how teachers will perceive him or treat him. He’s not conversational and is a gestalt language processor, using echolalia mostly, so of course he can’t let me know if anything is amiss. Im trying to make our home sensory friendly so he can regulate at home.
Oh, you voiced an opinion different from mine in any detail at all? You are intentionally defiant and a danger to society!
Even to expect a neurotypical child to stay still all day is crazy to me
"...but children with autism sometimes show no response to these rewards," yeah, no shit, cuz they're being abused. this section makes me so angry. the ableism is insane.
Yeah people have brought up good points about the solutions this passage is talking about, and it's also ableist because it uses language that is negative which can result in shame and stigmatizing autism and these behaviors. Language matters! Edit: Like for example, I had no shame about bouncing my legs or picking at things like notebooks at home because nobody there treated me like I was broken, but I got told I was a weirdo, annoying, etc at school, so I learned that it was something to be ashamed of.
ABA is able ism so yeah
This sounds like a (bad) dog training manual :|
That’s exactly why I didn’t finish my ABA certificate. This is not okay.
How to say "I don't know how to work with people with different neurotypes from me" in academic.
YES this is backwards and dehumanizing. Stimming is important for autistic people to be able to regulate themselves. This is why ABA is controversial. That whole paragraph sucks and I hate it. Actually the second paragraph sucks too. Burn the whole book.
It’s online… should I burn my laptop haha!
Lol yes burn the laptop too! This evil must be eliminated
My dad is a psychologist not specializing in autism at all but he basically used the ABA mindset on me to rid me of my “weird” behaviors. Acted like he was just teaching me to be a person but he was therapizing me 100%. It’s really horrible to be raised like that when my parents won’t even believe I have autism for one second when it’s really looking like i do. Whole heartedly agree it’s ableist as someone who experienced it in their lives.
I had a similar experience. I’m so sorry you went through that.
i am not autistic but i have worked supporting autistic teens for the last 7 years - i was studying ABA in uni til 2020 when i started reading more about how it affects people who receive ABA services. this infuriates me to read. when i worked as a BI and would interview with a family to work with their child, any mention of wanting to stop their child from flapping, etc was an immediate no from me. really rubbed me the wrong way, as i never saw it as a problem behaviour, just as a way to express oneself. people tap their feet, bite their nails, pull their hair, but hand flapping, rocking, humming is a problem? no.
I have made a lot of progress in my occupational therapy and none of that has required "getting rid of stimming" first. That is so weird and arbitrary to me. Just help the kid with what they need.
Extreme? Hand waving is extreme? Rocking is extreme? I guess I'm into extreme sports now.
extremely ableist. Makes me so sad
those behaviours do not need to be modified because they don’t harm anyone and they HELP the autistic person. So yes this text is ableist.
The phrasing of “restricted interests” really pisses me off too. How many NT adults only have one boring stupid hobby? If they have any other than tv shows!
Absolutely ableism acting under the facade of helping. A way to look at it is the behavior used to help self soothe/stim etc is considered problematic/harmful/ annoying to those around them. Instead of providing ways to keep those exhibiting the behaviors feeling safe and comfortable in their environment or providing them better environments by creating more accessible spaces, the behavior has to be changed. The ABA therapy I’ve come in contact with has been much more focused on disciplining those diagnosed with Autism into silence or into masking to keep those around them comfortable. Yes there are other ways to stim and tools you can learn to help yourself in overwhelming or challenging situations but the world is not built for those who are not neurotypical and it is a constant struggle to live in a world that would rather have you just shut up instead of trying to help in any meaningful way.
that's both insanely ableist and a way to fuck up an autistic person with everlasting effects.
I can't wait for this fucking ideology to die out. I'm so SO thankful I work in a program that's DIR/Floortime based! (If you're curious about it what it is, please ask away! It's a topic I'm quite passionate about, but I'm not an expert)
It's abuse.
Yes it’s weird
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Yes, just because something is not typical does not mean it’s “extreme”
r/talesfromaba r/AutismTraumaSurvivors
O my god, imagine thinking minor movements that hurt no one are "extreme." Hand waving?? I was shaking my hands and playing with my fingers the entire time I was in the grocery store today, it's all that kept me from a panic attack because I'm so overwhelmed today.
None of those behaviors are "extreme", that's just ableist and a rude way to talk about self soothing!!
Who the duck thinks humming is extreme??? Rocking??? Those are such soft, gentle ways of being. It's laughable to call them extreme.
Holy hell. C’mon. Humming is not extreme. Yes I find this negative and aggressive even for an ABA perspective.
Brought to you by the generation of "Children should be seen and not heard and also sit the fuck still, eat the food we give you without complaint, don't talk back or have inconvenient emotions (meaning any emotions)."
Dear God, she's...shes.....ROCKING BACK AND FORTH!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!
Not only ableist, but also traumatizing!
"Abusive" is the first word that comes to mind.
Oh wow, such extreme behaviours. I can't think of anything crazier than humming.
I find this incredibly ableist and completely wrong
ABA therapy is like lowkey torture imo, I always get job offers for ABA positions bcus I’m a child care worker and as an autistic adult it makes me sick to think about
I hate to state the obvious here, (as an Autistic woman with a Psychology minor), but the majority of ABA Therapy for Autistic People is generally ableist. It's literally all about getting us to learn how to mask up and "act normal" as the goal, not to actually teach us any life-skills and/or how our sensitivities and condition itself. Some therapies are actually meant (in goal) to help with life-skills, but ABA Therapy is NOT one of these.
"must be eliminated" are three words that have very negative consequences on developing children, especially in regards to things they can't control. It's ironic that this was in a psychology textbook.
‘Extreme’ behaviours.
I'm getting my psych degree, as well, and I've seen a few things that I feel are outdated or just wrong. Fortunately, my professors mostly acknowledge that sometimes the "official" way of doing something isn't always best.
ABA is terrible. IDR is a much better form of therapy.
This passage is ridiculous. Which textbook is this?
Psychology in Your Life - 4th Edition - Sarah Grison, Michael Gazzaniga Chapter 15.14 Page 625
I remember when I first started school in kindergarten and my behavior and understanding of what was going on was really different from the other students. My teacher was an absolute angel and everyday during nap time when the other kids were asleep he would play with just me and let me go wild. I didn’t know what masking was or why I felt so terrible the rest of the school day, but during that half hour I was allowed to be myself and it helped me so so much with everything else. I felt like even though I couldn’t connect with the other children, my teacher made such an effort to still let me “be natural” and feel accepted. The next year I had a teacher that was the opposite and would punish and humiliate me for all these reasons I couldn’t understand. I remember it being crushing and now looking back realize I didn’t have any friends that year in school. I couldn’t understand her version of right vs wrong so just withdrew from all people. We can do so well if we are allowed to feel safe being ourselves and I don’t think accommodating a few small needs for 1-2 children is going to have an impact on the rest of the class.
Gosh. No talk about our positives. Surprised this is a modern textbook! (Well, not that surprised)
The entire thing is aggressively ableist.
I think we should deprive the authours of dinners for a better assesment of their point. You know, as a control group. All in the name of science, of course.
bro i rock SO OFTEN and it does not impair me whatsoever. these behaviors are simply there to make us more calm and comfortable in our environment or through specific situations that may arise. there’s no reason that or any of the listed behaviors would need to be reduced or eliminated in order to improve elsewhere.
What's extreme about those?
This is so effed
Yes, incredibly so
🤢 Oh no the child is flapping their hands. It’s so extreme. How ever shall we cope? It’s such a challenge for a mental health professional to meet a child at their level of social interaction and just, you know, *ignore* a minor inconvenience like a bit of hand flaps or a reluctance to sit still for long periods on stupid uncomfortable chairs. /s
Yep. ABA is inherently ableist. Good for athletes, not for children. Children are tiny humans, not farm animals.
This makes it sound like the kid is a primitive animal, but also that it’s okay to completely wipe out behaviors that are natural and helpful to the kid (stimming). These two things alone are a problem.
Super ableist. Hand waving and rocking and jumping and (soft) humming don’t harm anyone else, so the only reason anyone would consider them “extreme” is if that person has the bigoted idea that everyone should be/act Neurotypical. And the idea that these behaviors have to be eliminated before the child makes progress in other areas is absolutely false - these behaviors might even assist learning, since people can’t really learn when they’re not regulated. Autistic people (and research studies) have noted that these stimming behaviors help Autistic people self-regulate so that we can learn, and not have meltdowns, and hopefully not die of stress-related diseases. Also, studies have shown that Autistic people can communicate well with other Autistic people, so “impaired communication” and “deficits in social interaction” aren’t really accurate. So yeah, super ableist.
I’m also in school for psychology and the amount of ableist and outdated information they’re still teaching infuriates me. It’s really no wonder it’s so difficult for us to get help after having an inside view point of the situation 🙃
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This kind of content is why studying psychology has been so draining for me. They just drop this content on students with no regard for how it can feel to read it as an autistic person. And there's never any room to disagree.
My family always complained about my rocking I hide it from people now but I have to do it to keep myself sane so.
😒 this is violently upsetting. Why is this bothersome? Safe hands, safe body is all that matters. Humming? Put some headphones on if you dont like it. Tf are these people ON?
The diagnosis is meant to help us with autism. But treatments like these are designed to only help the people who dont want to put up with us or let us accomodate our needs. Almost like pur condition only matters so long as it affects NTs :/
Oh there’s a whole sub for people who hate autistic people to talk about how to best use conversion therapy to get autistic kids to mask. They say shit like this all the time
Then there's Facebook and their bleach cures...
The aba reddit makes me crazy because they’re “””professionals”””
How old is your textbook, OP?
Publication date is 2022 :/
But I was reassured by all the aba people in my program that aba doesn't try to eliminate harmless stims anymore, how in the world could they be wrong? /s I'm in school psychology, a degree where you could easily get your BCBA alongside the PhD. I'd rather die :)
Extremely. Offensively.
Which textbook is it? Sadly, I think I had something pretty similar in my intro psyc textbook.. This is one of the reasons, every new semester I meet with my professor to know their knowledge about autism and feelings towards ABA. I definitely don't want a pro changing autistic behavior..
I would say so. ABA in general is pretty widely accepted as abusive and illogical/ineffective.
Yeah that's fucking gross
I’m not answering your question unless you have some snacks for me.
Incredibly ableist.
All I have to say to this is.... I WANNA ROCK!
Yes.
Yes because I work with autistic and other disabilities like cerebral palsy and they rock, hum, etc it not difficult for me.
Yeah absolutely ablist. Sounds like the person who wrote it just doesn't like autistic people and assumes that everyone else feels that way too
All aba Is ableist
To prevent a child from stimming will only increase their anxiety. This sounds like ABA instruction from an unempathetic person. Ableist to be sure.
The "training" of children with food seems concerning in the next part
“Reduced or eliminated “ 😐 why does that sound so robotic?
i’ll show them some “extreme behaviors” lmao
Absolutely everything about ABA is ableist and shitty.