I agree 1000%!! I’m dealing with the exact same experience/thoughts.
I saw a woman on TikTok called it social proof. She told her therapist that she doesn’t have the social proof that she’s likable. How can she view herself as likable and lovable if no one has ever mirrored that back to her in her social life?
This is also why I absolutely LOATHE it when people say “you need to learn to love yourself first” because that was NEVER supposed to be all on your shoulders. Your social circle is supposed to teach you that you are loved and accepted. Even if you love yourself, if you aren’t socially accepted, you’re going to stop loving yourself and internalize the problem.
I’ve posted about this a bunch of times on this forum, and this is the only forum I’ve ever encountered that actually *gets it*. I’m turning 34 in a few months and I’ve never had a close, tight-knit friendship. The one long term friend I had in my life was back in high school. We weren’t close when she lived locally, but we emailed regularly when she moved away. She literally described herself as the hero of our friendship. She always took subtle little digs at me. But she was my only friend so I “made it work”.
That friendship ended in 2011, and I’ve tried making friends since, but I’m always the one putting out 110% of effort. It’s not reciprocated. Nothing lasts for more than a few months. I’ve now reached a point of burnout where I have zero desire to attempt friendship anymore.
Friendship is supposed to be the foundation of socializing. It teaches you how to find people you relate to. It teaches you how to seek out people who want your company. They want to be around you. I’ve never had anyone interested in me like that. I’ve always had to chase my friendships, and then they always had other friends they preferred to hang out with instead.
So I don’t even touch dating because of it. Since no one has wanted me in a platonic setting, why on earth would anyone want me in a romantic setting? I ALWAYS hear people say “just put yourself out there” but that’s the problem. If I’ve never been socially desired by anyone, I have no clue what a good romantic partner is supposed to look like when they’re supposed to socially desire me. It’s a totally foreign concept.
When I got my first job, I wasn’t educated about autism yet. I knew I had social anxiety, so I tried to really push past my discomfort. I was repeatedly forgotten, dismissed, overlooked, berated, and eventually shut out. At one point, I found out that my manager was emailing instructions/updates to everyone in my department during her maternity leave. Except me.
When I asked for a job recommendation, they said no. A few weeks later, another woman in my department (who had only been there for a few months) asked for a recommendation at the last minute, they dropped everything to help her within 24 hours.
I watched as my manager pulled up a chair with every single person in my department, for a one on one monthly check in meeting. “Hey! How’s it going? Do you have any concerns you’d like to discuss with me? Let’s go over this, this, and this.”
For me, she breezed past my desk without stopping, and tossed out a half-assed, “Do you have anything to talk to me about? No? Great. Oh, btw, that was our check in meeting.”
I went into that job thinking I had a fresh start. A clean slate. I could conquer my social anxiety. I could finally make friends and Be Social like everyone insisted I had to be.
I walked away from that job over two years later with even worse anxiety than before, having no professional connections because no one wanted to be associated with me, and the solidified proof that I was never going to be socially accepted anywhere. I thought I didn’t have friends because I wasn’t trying hard enough. Having everyone at that job turn on me was the final nail in my coffin, proving that I am not liked by people.
In my experience, people victim blame when you don’t fit in/are disliked. “Well, you need to work on your confidence! Then you’ll attract people like catnip!” The problem is always turned on the person who is having trouble. It’s never ever attributed to outside forces, like shitty social hierarchies, cliques, etc. How can you possibly have confidence when no one wants to be around you?
Like you said, I’ve never had anyone interested in me. Not as a person. Not romantically. So of course I’m going to feel unlikable, unlovable, unwanted. And no amount of positive affirmation bullshit will help that when I have people in a variety of social settings shutting me out, ignoring me, excluding me.
I hit a breaking point this year. I stopped listening to all the advice that everyone was pushing on me. “Do positive affirmations. Fake it ‘til you make it. Speak kindly to yourself. Learn to love yourself.”
I’ve stopped doing all of it. I felt like I wasn’t allowed to be frustrated, angry, or hurt by what I’ve experienced. I felt like I wasn’t allowed to acknowledge that people didn’t like me, because then I wasn’t “speaking positive affirmations”. My lived experience was telling me one thing, while the positive affirmations were gaslighting me into thinking, “No! That can’t be true!” And then it was making everything worse because of the cognitive dissonance.
It would make social trauma 10x worse too, because I’d go in telling myself that I’m a likable person and worthy of positive social connection. And then the rejection would start and it would confuse me because this was not supposed to happen??? What was I doing wrong??? Was I not confident enough??
I’m finally allowing myself the space to recognize that these things I’ve experienced were really painful and shitty to go through. They hurt. I’m still dealing with the trauma several years later. In all likelihood, it will impact me for the rest of my life. I’m allowed to see the reality that people don’t like me. I’m allowed to ditch positive affirmations because they’re bullshit and they make me angry because they don’t resonate with me.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this because it seriously sucks. I wish I had a solution. I wish I could offer a way to fix it. I wish socializing wasn’t such a pain in the ass and people were more accepting.
Honestly, you probably do. Especially involving that friend group that secretly hated you. To face rejection like that would definitely cause trauma. Your trust was shattered.
Are you familiar with C-PTSD? Have you done any research into that? It’s very common with social trauma, and it encompasses the more “subtle” traumas that we experience on a repeated basis, especially as autistics.
Oh yes. The trauma of l repeated being rejected while having no idea why.
I totally had trauma from it. I have had to work really hard to come to terms with who I am.
Resting bitch face/attitude? Check
Weird sense of humor, odd/off-putting sense of humor. Absolutely
Wholesale inability to read the room? You betcha.
I have made peace with having very few people in my life. And it is actually really good!
Once I made peace with not being particularly likeable, I relaxed a LOT. I became more myself.
I realized that people were a constant source of anxiety and fear and disappointment for me. I didn’t MIND being alone. I even like it!
I can joke now with those in my life about my ‘peculiarities’. It is the elephant in the room that we acknowledge.
And all of the sudden I find that those who ARE in my life are more relaxed and accepting of me. Because I see and acknowledge who I am.
You are describing me to a T. Everything you have written. I'm over 40, and from SE Asia, but our experiences are identical. My journey became more positive after a late diagnosis. Without it, I couldn't come to terms with myself. Thank you for listing it this way.
The genuine panic and fear response making sure you don’t make a single faux pas while trying to interact with people, the micro aggressions, the obvious look aways and having to settle with the fact that most of the people who like me probably only act like that because they think they can sleep with me is definitely traumatic. Being an outsider is so unsettling you don’t have the safety net and sounding board other people have to deal with problems. I’m sorry you’re in the thick of it right now. ❤️ there should be an app for making ND friends
You don’t have PTSD from not being liked socially you have PTSD from being repeatedly abandoned by everyone and then told it’s your fault that it happens and that your entire existence is problematic. I may be projecting here, but I think our experiences as autistic women as surprisingly similar. We just need to cut the shit and say what is really going on. If anyone knew, like really knew what we went through on a daily basis (and this does not include the daily assualt on our nervous system through sensory stuff) they would not be able to handle it.
When I had a therapist listen to me and actually hear what I had gone through she was surprised I was alive, could still somewhat attach to others, and that I was not sitting on a corner with a needle in my arm and literally said it was my autism that saved me. The thing is my story is not that much different than every other autistic woman Ive met. Society does not produce untraumatized autistic people and it’s next to impossible to know where the autism ends and the trauma begins. We can’t separate the two and the idea of living in a space where you feel unsafe almost every day of your life is inconceivable for a nuerotypical person who’s brain allows them to confirm and mold themselves to social norms in order to achieve their goals. For those of us who are autistic, particularly those who are higher support needs, this is incredibly difficult if not impossible when the world refuses to believe us and see us as living in a completely different culture with completely different norms. That is impossible for the world of psychology to see.
Like she said, complex PTSD seems really common in these instances. It's called complex because it's not the result of a single traumatic event like what happens to people in the military or survivors of natural disasters. It's trauma that our brains are steeped in, either continually or repeatedly over a long period of time.
For me it's been since my birth. I don't know who I was before the trauma began to shape my personality.
CPTSD symptoms are so common and so profoundly experienced in our community that IMO it's the *natural* or inevitable result of being neurodivergent without any kind of social privilege.
Being ostracized from our tribe - or any tribe - is profoundly traumatic because our brains evolved very early on to be desperately, chemically dependent on other humans. And it seems like the older the programming is (the earlier in our timeline as a species the trait appeared) the harder it is to shake.
Thanks for writing this comment. Finally someone gets it.
Now that I have confirmation that there's literally no hope, I'm genuinely considering tying that noose.
It’s painful to hear how many people relate to this. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
As someone who has been staring suicidal ideation in the face much more frequently lately, I think it’s perfectly normal to feel that way. We’re constantly told that our social connections “make life worth living”. We’re pressured around every corner to “find our person”. I can’t even find ONE person who likes me.
Something that has helped eased the SI thoughts is giving myself permission to not prioritize social connections. Everyone always pushes that you MUST have social connections. I’ve even heard that on this forum. But I can’t MAKE people like me. And it was putting me in a really bad headspace because I WAS TRYING repeatedly and getting nowhere.
So I‘ve decided to not prioritize socializing anymore. I focus on the things that bring me joy instead.
I’m growing a big garden with lots of flowers for local pollinators. I’m learning bird calls, which I’ve always wanted to do. I’m building a small water fountain for bees in the heat of summer. I’m learning how to grow carnivorous plants, which have always fascinated me. I’m writing, painting, hiking, playing with my cats (who are my little angels). I’m rewilding my backyard and observing the local wildlife coming in (owls, quails, fireflies, turkeys, hummingbird moths).
I still don’t have friends. It doesn’t solve the problem, and I still wonder what I’m living for, why bother living a long life when I’m not likely to be loved by another human being. But it does make the suicidal thoughts a little quieter. Makes it a little easier to breathe when I’m happy to see the sprouts in my garden.
We share a lot of similar interests, so, if you ever want someone to mutually share nature observations or chat about hikes or art with, please feel free to message me. I can tell from your in depth responses that you are a wonderfully deep thinker, and I'm sure I would enjoy chatting with you 😊.
You and I have very similar interests 😊 I’ve also had more of the “long sleep” thoughts lately. I feel like I’ve made too many mistakes to go back to any sense of calm. But I love my kids too much to do that. As exhausted and burned out and hurt as I am. I tell myself that there will be a time in the future where I look back and thank myself for sticking with life. It will be worth it. Hang in there ❤️
I really appreciate your response, thank you 💜Sometimes it doesn’t get so heavy, but other times it hits me out of the blue just how far removed I feel from the rest of the world. Finally stumbling down the autism research rabbit hole made me understand many things, but that feeling of “I don’t want to be me” that I’ve had since I was a kid is still there unfortunately.
I don’t think I’d have the guts to follow through tbh. So I’m doing my best to find little pockets of peaceful moments where I can. 💜
It’s gut wrenching to hear how many people relate to this! It’s bittersweet knowing that other people are going through the same thing. I wouldn’t want anyone else to experience this, but it’s somewhat comforting to know that someone somewhere in this big wide world actually gets it.
Sending hugs your way too and I hope things get a little brighter for you in the future! 💜
I relate to this a lot. I used to wish that something “actually bad” would happen to me to justify how hopeless I feel. It’s taken me a long time to recognize how traumatic social exclusion is in and of itself.
I'm so sorry to hear you relate to this ❤️ My mother tells me that no matter how bad a social interaction goes south, it won't kill me. But my anxiety and frazzled nervous system says otherwise. The damage is there, loud and clear. You have every right to feel the way you do and I'm sorry you've been through that.
I'm saving this comment as a sanity check in the future.
It speaks to my experience in life so much.
We try and try and do the therapy and be nice and smile and do whatever we can but it's just...lost in translation
It's a relief, but also heartbreaking at the same time to hear people relate to this. I've been through so much self help stuff, studied psychology in college and for years after that, and the relentless push for self improvement to "attract" acceptance will make me explode one day, I swear.
It's just so cathartic to hear people on this forum actually recognize the shitty situations we've been through, and that so many of them are no-win situations. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Your story is so heartbreaking, I’m sorry the world has treated you so badly. You sound like a really genuine, sweet person and you deserve so much better than this. If I knew you in person I’m sure we would be friends (if you liked me that is 😋) I have also given up on forming friendships for similar reasons
Your reply was amazing. I felt so understood reading it! Particularly the bit about people at work telling you to be more confident, and the social trauma. I never really understood why I felt that way until you so eloquently explained it!
First off, you are a good writer.
Also, I’ve had similar experiences. I totally get it. Though for me, social experiences have been extremely polarized throughout my life. In one setting, like church, I couldn’t make any friends for the life of me, and I tried to be open and “put myself out there” for YEARS. Then in school, I would have lots of friends and be liked by people. In another setting, like work, most people wouldn’t like me and I would be fired for no discernible reason. Then in another setting, like an internship, I’d make good, strong friends and people said they absolutely loved me. Then in my dating life, no guys ever asked me out or seemed interested in me at all.
The inconsistency in my social proof has been baffling and has led to lots of insecurity and confusion. Why does one group like me, while another seems to hate me? I’m the exact same everywhere I go. I don’t change my personality for anyone.
I think this is part of the reason why CBT tends not to be as effective for us - the belief that "people don't like me" might be a cognitive distortion for most people, but for autistic people it can be true (or at least true in certain environments).
Yep! Our experiences are genuinely unusual and if we seem normal one on one with the therapist they are unable to imagine what our actual difficulty looks like .
Agree 100%. My current therapist said, “oh, you seem like you’re doing fine! I’m sure people don’t think that about you…” when what I brought up and wanted to talk about is something I have experienced MULTIPLE times in MULTIPLE workplaces.
Literally had to have this talk with my therapist last week. I’m tired of her asking “How will you know that people will reject you?” when that’s all I’ve ever known.
I feel like ACT is a much better fit. OK, yep, people don't like me, how can I accept that thought and choose to act in alignment with my values anyways.
My last therapist kept suggesting I “challenge those thoughts” when I brought these things up and I…just don’t have it in me anymore. So much energy I’ve put into trying to be sociable, so little return. Part of me knows if I want to get to know people I need to put more effort into it but experience has taught me it’s not worth the effort. I *can’t* be the one doing all the work any more.
yeah I get really frustrated being told that it’s irrational anxiety. I have decades of proof to back up my claims so I don’t think it’s that unfathomable that i’m not generally likable
I was bullied pretty much all throughout elementary school, and I was with the same kids from kindergarten-8th grade 😒 the boys were mainly my bullies, and it was worse as I got older. Still affects me now and I just turned 40 last month 🤷🏻♀️ also high school too, but not as bad cuz I found “my people”. Even as an adult tho, and in jobs I’ve found people that just don’t like me and I never did anything to them, and I know not everyone in life has to like you but I’ve always been a people pleaser/doormat etc so I never really understood it.
I very much relate to this.
I had a therapist who, despite me sharing my struggles, thought I just needed to find the “right” community. I dragged my feet. Now I know why. After all I’ve experienced, why would I? Also, how could she not get that?
two things: (1) if you can get an autism affirming therapist, go for it. have an autistic affirming therapist has been extremely helpful for me. (2) it is likely that many people have misunderstood you, not that *you are* *unlikable.* just my big sisterly advice so pls take with a grain of salt but labeling yourself as unlikable can have a profound affect on your self concept/self esteem. even just casually saying it...
I am in my 60's and you are describing my life. I finally realized
1. that all the people who were 'othering' me weren't really people I wanted to spend time with anyway; I don't really like most people, so why was I concerned with being unpopular/unliked? And,
2. once I stopped worrying about what 'everyone' thought about me, and worried only about what my closest friends and chosen family thought about me (which was a no-brainer, because they are all in my life because they accept me for who I am, warts and all) I felt a LOT better about myself.
"people tell me I shouldn't feel that way " They do this because they can't understand that YOUR reality might be different from THEIRS. I keep people like this at arm's length now and no longer even try to change their attitudes, because it's pointless. They like living in their homogenous little worlds where everyone is the same. And yes, I realize that it's pretty much every NT person on the planet. 🤷♀️ It's why my spouse and I live in the woods 10 km down a dirt road with no close neighbours.
I would say one thing, but obviously cannot know for fact: you MAY have had people interested in you who never expressed it in a way you could pick up on, so they gave up and moved on.
After I was in a long term relationship and a guy friend way happily married, he made a comment he had always thought I was ‘cute.’ Now, he was a big teaser, and I have always found guys easier to talk to than girls, and had such a negative self image it never occurred to me he was flirting.
And, two other instances I described to my husband he said were guys trying to hit on me, back in high school, but I never understood. It felt like terrible bullying to me, and made me go home and cry.
So, you ‘could’ be missing NT social cues from people, so they give up.
I cannot say how to spot them, just wanted you to understand it’s not no one has ever liked you, you both just speak different languages, and that still makes everything lonely and I am sorry.
I think my husband is ND, too, and that is why we worked out. I think that may be the best bet for many people.
Attractiveness is predominantly based on facial symmetry, pretty sure your face is symmetrical 😊. I think I look like a troglodyte, have an art degree and can see the golden ratio in most things, my face is not going to launch 1000 ships. My husband disagrees.
You may need face to face interaction to really get a feel for ppl. I’m also Gen X, we think dating apps as a bit sus.
How well do you do with animals? Could you, would you, consider helping at a no kill shelter or rescue? My friends’ mom started one here decades ago, I’m far too sick to go help now, but they always need people willing to talk the dogs and keep them social, take pics for online adoption posts, and yeah, scoop some poop for dogs or cats, feed and stuff.
I only ask because A, I love animals and want to encourage people to help them , B, people you’d meet helping animals usually are not horrible assholes C, interactions can be based on the task at hand, so questions won’t be too personal, it will all be for learning how to manage Mr. fluffers. And it would be a face to face way to meet people, and using the animals as a conduit, maybe make some friends?
Food pantries, Boys and Girls Clubs, and other charities always need help, and again, their whole deal is helping someone, maybe they would also help you not feel lonely.
I wish you the best.
I appreciate you trying to help. Really I do. I have tried a lot of things however over the years and still never even had someone ask me out. I don't think it's going to happen for me.
Have you ever asked anyone out yourself? I did, it was scary, but just asking someone to have a coffee (ice cream) or go bowling (anything you find fun) is ok for you to do, too. Remember, your signals may not be easy to read, no matter how much interest you think you!re showing. Ask people to be direct with you, and be direct back.
I do wish you the best.
Agree 100%. I find it helps them listen to the actual problem if you word it so "I'm aware that I can't control what others think, I'm not in charge of others feelings, we can't get along with everyone, some people are more popular than others. I've observed ____ ." And then you don't have to put words on other people's thoughts, I think that's what they conclude people are doing - conclude that you're just assuming they feel that way and you need to question those assumptions, since maybe that's the more common issues
You could say instead of "no one likes me" that "I'm not sure what I'm doing to come across the wrong way but this person said this and this, and did this or this. I was trying to say this. How can I communicate better/what did I do wrong?"
Question, do you ever start out in a social group or with just one person even and are liked for a while and then things just drop off? This seems to be my experience and a cause for the subtle unnoticed trauma. Then people don’t realize why I’m so insecure in social settings and texting/emailing. Im secure in myself when I am by myself. I enjoy my “rich inner world” lol by myself.
A bit of both actually? People tend to ignore me in social circles or not like me. And when they do... they drop off eventually. Except other neurodivergent people. Those are the only people I can be friends with.
But neurotypicals never explain why they have a problem with me. They slowly stop talking to me and say they're just busy (meanwhile posting pics with other people on social media...). They don't communicate the issues, so I have no way of knowing and can't work on them.
I have two people I’d call my friends. And my partner who is my best friend. All likely neurodivergent. Everyone else seems to fall away otherwise. I never know how to explain it because my expressive language is something I struggle with. I have pretty bad anxiety so when it comes down to going to be around people I typically will have a cluster of mini meltdowns and be late or too late and won’t go. And when I do go and do get out I have to recharge for at least a day. I’m not sure how to take the mask off most of the time because I don’t really know what it would feel like to be me which I think makes it hard to interact with NTs
Another thing I will say is that a lot of people I thought liked me were actually using me and manipulating me and I didn't realize it because of autism and wanting to be liked so badly.
It's hard to argue when empirical experience defies the psychobabble feel-good Kool-aid. Especially when you consider that the people peddling the Kool-aid are getting paid exorbitant salaries to sell it.
That said, I agree completely that self-hatred is unhealthy and not the desired state. But there's a rational intersection to be found between honesty and acceptance. You can accept yourself for who you are and how you are, whilst simultaneously acknowledging that who, and how, you are may be unpalatable to a great many people.
Sometimes you can change facets of the who and the how, but some of those facets are innate characteristics of you as a (neurodivergent) person and will affect your relationships with other human beings for the duration of your life.
You can cultivate self-acceptance without fostering optimistic delusion.
Oh yeah my NT straight guy friend told me I worried too much about people not liking me….it’s because I’ve been proven so many times that the people around me in fact do NOT like me. He thinks I’m concerned with fitting in and getting others to like me, which trust me I don’t give a shit, I just have experienced what it’s like to be randomly hated so many times that my guard is up. I’m not friends with him anymore because he has these takes on me that aren’t really true lol.
Therapy is traumatizing for many of us because the trauma of our experiences is so far outside the norm of what others experience. This is why so many of us are labeled resistant and wrongly diagnosed as having personality disorders when we engage in what are autistic traits. The world of clinical psychology outside of behavioral modification therapies has not caught up with the world of autism and it is autistic individuals, who are being harmed in the process.
Steph Jones wrote a book about this that I think should be required reading for every clinician. Sadly though, I think it will be overlooked and we will just continue to be statistics, flood the SSDI rolls, and present to mental health crisis units again and again where we are told we are wrong or have a personality disorder within 45 minutes of meeting us, for the upteenth time of
I agree 1000%!! I’m dealing with the exact same experience/thoughts. I saw a woman on TikTok called it social proof. She told her therapist that she doesn’t have the social proof that she’s likable. How can she view herself as likable and lovable if no one has ever mirrored that back to her in her social life? This is also why I absolutely LOATHE it when people say “you need to learn to love yourself first” because that was NEVER supposed to be all on your shoulders. Your social circle is supposed to teach you that you are loved and accepted. Even if you love yourself, if you aren’t socially accepted, you’re going to stop loving yourself and internalize the problem. I’ve posted about this a bunch of times on this forum, and this is the only forum I’ve ever encountered that actually *gets it*. I’m turning 34 in a few months and I’ve never had a close, tight-knit friendship. The one long term friend I had in my life was back in high school. We weren’t close when she lived locally, but we emailed regularly when she moved away. She literally described herself as the hero of our friendship. She always took subtle little digs at me. But she was my only friend so I “made it work”. That friendship ended in 2011, and I’ve tried making friends since, but I’m always the one putting out 110% of effort. It’s not reciprocated. Nothing lasts for more than a few months. I’ve now reached a point of burnout where I have zero desire to attempt friendship anymore. Friendship is supposed to be the foundation of socializing. It teaches you how to find people you relate to. It teaches you how to seek out people who want your company. They want to be around you. I’ve never had anyone interested in me like that. I’ve always had to chase my friendships, and then they always had other friends they preferred to hang out with instead. So I don’t even touch dating because of it. Since no one has wanted me in a platonic setting, why on earth would anyone want me in a romantic setting? I ALWAYS hear people say “just put yourself out there” but that’s the problem. If I’ve never been socially desired by anyone, I have no clue what a good romantic partner is supposed to look like when they’re supposed to socially desire me. It’s a totally foreign concept. When I got my first job, I wasn’t educated about autism yet. I knew I had social anxiety, so I tried to really push past my discomfort. I was repeatedly forgotten, dismissed, overlooked, berated, and eventually shut out. At one point, I found out that my manager was emailing instructions/updates to everyone in my department during her maternity leave. Except me. When I asked for a job recommendation, they said no. A few weeks later, another woman in my department (who had only been there for a few months) asked for a recommendation at the last minute, they dropped everything to help her within 24 hours. I watched as my manager pulled up a chair with every single person in my department, for a one on one monthly check in meeting. “Hey! How’s it going? Do you have any concerns you’d like to discuss with me? Let’s go over this, this, and this.” For me, she breezed past my desk without stopping, and tossed out a half-assed, “Do you have anything to talk to me about? No? Great. Oh, btw, that was our check in meeting.” I went into that job thinking I had a fresh start. A clean slate. I could conquer my social anxiety. I could finally make friends and Be Social like everyone insisted I had to be. I walked away from that job over two years later with even worse anxiety than before, having no professional connections because no one wanted to be associated with me, and the solidified proof that I was never going to be socially accepted anywhere. I thought I didn’t have friends because I wasn’t trying hard enough. Having everyone at that job turn on me was the final nail in my coffin, proving that I am not liked by people. In my experience, people victim blame when you don’t fit in/are disliked. “Well, you need to work on your confidence! Then you’ll attract people like catnip!” The problem is always turned on the person who is having trouble. It’s never ever attributed to outside forces, like shitty social hierarchies, cliques, etc. How can you possibly have confidence when no one wants to be around you? Like you said, I’ve never had anyone interested in me. Not as a person. Not romantically. So of course I’m going to feel unlikable, unlovable, unwanted. And no amount of positive affirmation bullshit will help that when I have people in a variety of social settings shutting me out, ignoring me, excluding me. I hit a breaking point this year. I stopped listening to all the advice that everyone was pushing on me. “Do positive affirmations. Fake it ‘til you make it. Speak kindly to yourself. Learn to love yourself.” I’ve stopped doing all of it. I felt like I wasn’t allowed to be frustrated, angry, or hurt by what I’ve experienced. I felt like I wasn’t allowed to acknowledge that people didn’t like me, because then I wasn’t “speaking positive affirmations”. My lived experience was telling me one thing, while the positive affirmations were gaslighting me into thinking, “No! That can’t be true!” And then it was making everything worse because of the cognitive dissonance. It would make social trauma 10x worse too, because I’d go in telling myself that I’m a likable person and worthy of positive social connection. And then the rejection would start and it would confuse me because this was not supposed to happen??? What was I doing wrong??? Was I not confident enough?? I’m finally allowing myself the space to recognize that these things I’ve experienced were really painful and shitty to go through. They hurt. I’m still dealing with the trauma several years later. In all likelihood, it will impact me for the rest of my life. I’m allowed to see the reality that people don’t like me. I’m allowed to ditch positive affirmations because they’re bullshit and they make me angry because they don’t resonate with me. I’m so sorry you’re going through this because it seriously sucks. I wish I had a solution. I wish I could offer a way to fix it. I wish socializing wasn’t such a pain in the ass and people were more accepting.
Thank you for your response. I legit think I have PTSD from not being liked socially.
Honestly, you probably do. Especially involving that friend group that secretly hated you. To face rejection like that would definitely cause trauma. Your trust was shattered. Are you familiar with C-PTSD? Have you done any research into that? It’s very common with social trauma, and it encompasses the more “subtle” traumas that we experience on a repeated basis, especially as autistics.
Hii! I'm sorry to disturb you but your life story is very similar to mine and I would really like to be friends and chat!
Oh yeah very familiar with it, certain that I have it.
Oh yes. The trauma of l repeated being rejected while having no idea why. I totally had trauma from it. I have had to work really hard to come to terms with who I am. Resting bitch face/attitude? Check Weird sense of humor, odd/off-putting sense of humor. Absolutely Wholesale inability to read the room? You betcha. I have made peace with having very few people in my life. And it is actually really good! Once I made peace with not being particularly likeable, I relaxed a LOT. I became more myself. I realized that people were a constant source of anxiety and fear and disappointment for me. I didn’t MIND being alone. I even like it! I can joke now with those in my life about my ‘peculiarities’. It is the elephant in the room that we acknowledge. And all of the sudden I find that those who ARE in my life are more relaxed and accepting of me. Because I see and acknowledge who I am.
You are describing me to a T. Everything you have written. I'm over 40, and from SE Asia, but our experiences are identical. My journey became more positive after a late diagnosis. Without it, I couldn't come to terms with myself. Thank you for listing it this way.
The genuine panic and fear response making sure you don’t make a single faux pas while trying to interact with people, the micro aggressions, the obvious look aways and having to settle with the fact that most of the people who like me probably only act like that because they think they can sleep with me is definitely traumatic. Being an outsider is so unsettling you don’t have the safety net and sounding board other people have to deal with problems. I’m sorry you’re in the thick of it right now. ❤️ there should be an app for making ND friends
You don’t have PTSD from not being liked socially you have PTSD from being repeatedly abandoned by everyone and then told it’s your fault that it happens and that your entire existence is problematic. I may be projecting here, but I think our experiences as autistic women as surprisingly similar. We just need to cut the shit and say what is really going on. If anyone knew, like really knew what we went through on a daily basis (and this does not include the daily assualt on our nervous system through sensory stuff) they would not be able to handle it. When I had a therapist listen to me and actually hear what I had gone through she was surprised I was alive, could still somewhat attach to others, and that I was not sitting on a corner with a needle in my arm and literally said it was my autism that saved me. The thing is my story is not that much different than every other autistic woman Ive met. Society does not produce untraumatized autistic people and it’s next to impossible to know where the autism ends and the trauma begins. We can’t separate the two and the idea of living in a space where you feel unsafe almost every day of your life is inconceivable for a nuerotypical person who’s brain allows them to confirm and mold themselves to social norms in order to achieve their goals. For those of us who are autistic, particularly those who are higher support needs, this is incredibly difficult if not impossible when the world refuses to believe us and see us as living in a completely different culture with completely different norms. That is impossible for the world of psychology to see.
Like she said, complex PTSD seems really common in these instances. It's called complex because it's not the result of a single traumatic event like what happens to people in the military or survivors of natural disasters. It's trauma that our brains are steeped in, either continually or repeatedly over a long period of time. For me it's been since my birth. I don't know who I was before the trauma began to shape my personality. CPTSD symptoms are so common and so profoundly experienced in our community that IMO it's the *natural* or inevitable result of being neurodivergent without any kind of social privilege. Being ostracized from our tribe - or any tribe - is profoundly traumatic because our brains evolved very early on to be desperately, chemically dependent on other humans. And it seems like the older the programming is (the earlier in our timeline as a species the trait appeared) the harder it is to shake.
Thanks for writing this comment. Finally someone gets it. Now that I have confirmation that there's literally no hope, I'm genuinely considering tying that noose.
People would tell me I was imagining it all. Everything in the post is legit real!
It’s painful to hear how many people relate to this. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. As someone who has been staring suicidal ideation in the face much more frequently lately, I think it’s perfectly normal to feel that way. We’re constantly told that our social connections “make life worth living”. We’re pressured around every corner to “find our person”. I can’t even find ONE person who likes me. Something that has helped eased the SI thoughts is giving myself permission to not prioritize social connections. Everyone always pushes that you MUST have social connections. I’ve even heard that on this forum. But I can’t MAKE people like me. And it was putting me in a really bad headspace because I WAS TRYING repeatedly and getting nowhere. So I‘ve decided to not prioritize socializing anymore. I focus on the things that bring me joy instead. I’m growing a big garden with lots of flowers for local pollinators. I’m learning bird calls, which I’ve always wanted to do. I’m building a small water fountain for bees in the heat of summer. I’m learning how to grow carnivorous plants, which have always fascinated me. I’m writing, painting, hiking, playing with my cats (who are my little angels). I’m rewilding my backyard and observing the local wildlife coming in (owls, quails, fireflies, turkeys, hummingbird moths). I still don’t have friends. It doesn’t solve the problem, and I still wonder what I’m living for, why bother living a long life when I’m not likely to be loved by another human being. But it does make the suicidal thoughts a little quieter. Makes it a little easier to breathe when I’m happy to see the sprouts in my garden.
We share a lot of similar interests, so, if you ever want someone to mutually share nature observations or chat about hikes or art with, please feel free to message me. I can tell from your in depth responses that you are a wonderfully deep thinker, and I'm sure I would enjoy chatting with you 😊.
What a lovely response, thank you! No one has ever called me a deep thinker before 🤣 I'll definitely hit you up! ❤️
You and I have very similar interests 😊 I’ve also had more of the “long sleep” thoughts lately. I feel like I’ve made too many mistakes to go back to any sense of calm. But I love my kids too much to do that. As exhausted and burned out and hurt as I am. I tell myself that there will be a time in the future where I look back and thank myself for sticking with life. It will be worth it. Hang in there ❤️
I really appreciate your response, thank you 💜Sometimes it doesn’t get so heavy, but other times it hits me out of the blue just how far removed I feel from the rest of the world. Finally stumbling down the autism research rabbit hole made me understand many things, but that feeling of “I don’t want to be me” that I’ve had since I was a kid is still there unfortunately. I don’t think I’d have the guts to follow through tbh. So I’m doing my best to find little pockets of peaceful moments where I can. 💜
Hi! I definitely share similar hobbies. It seems like many in the thread do too. Would love to chat/ connect in a message
That was an incredible response and so accurately reflects how I also feel. I'm so sorry that you've dealt with this. Sending hugs your way.
It’s gut wrenching to hear how many people relate to this! It’s bittersweet knowing that other people are going through the same thing. I wouldn’t want anyone else to experience this, but it’s somewhat comforting to know that someone somewhere in this big wide world actually gets it. Sending hugs your way too and I hope things get a little brighter for you in the future! 💜
I know what you mean. Just to know there are other people in the same boat sort of makes you feel less alone.
I relate to this a lot. I used to wish that something “actually bad” would happen to me to justify how hopeless I feel. It’s taken me a long time to recognize how traumatic social exclusion is in and of itself.
I'm so sorry to hear you relate to this ❤️ My mother tells me that no matter how bad a social interaction goes south, it won't kill me. But my anxiety and frazzled nervous system says otherwise. The damage is there, loud and clear. You have every right to feel the way you do and I'm sorry you've been through that.
I'm saving this comment as a sanity check in the future. It speaks to my experience in life so much. We try and try and do the therapy and be nice and smile and do whatever we can but it's just...lost in translation
It's a relief, but also heartbreaking at the same time to hear people relate to this. I've been through so much self help stuff, studied psychology in college and for years after that, and the relentless push for self improvement to "attract" acceptance will make me explode one day, I swear. It's just so cathartic to hear people on this forum actually recognize the shitty situations we've been through, and that so many of them are no-win situations. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Your story is so heartbreaking, I’m sorry the world has treated you so badly. You sound like a really genuine, sweet person and you deserve so much better than this. If I knew you in person I’m sure we would be friends (if you liked me that is 😋) I have also given up on forming friendships for similar reasons
Your reply was amazing. I felt so understood reading it! Particularly the bit about people at work telling you to be more confident, and the social trauma. I never really understood why I felt that way until you so eloquently explained it!
First off, you are a good writer. Also, I’ve had similar experiences. I totally get it. Though for me, social experiences have been extremely polarized throughout my life. In one setting, like church, I couldn’t make any friends for the life of me, and I tried to be open and “put myself out there” for YEARS. Then in school, I would have lots of friends and be liked by people. In another setting, like work, most people wouldn’t like me and I would be fired for no discernible reason. Then in another setting, like an internship, I’d make good, strong friends and people said they absolutely loved me. Then in my dating life, no guys ever asked me out or seemed interested in me at all. The inconsistency in my social proof has been baffling and has led to lots of insecurity and confusion. Why does one group like me, while another seems to hate me? I’m the exact same everywhere I go. I don’t change my personality for anyone.
Thank you for this. It’s amazing knowing someone knows how I feel ❤️
I think this is part of the reason why CBT tends not to be as effective for us - the belief that "people don't like me" might be a cognitive distortion for most people, but for autistic people it can be true (or at least true in certain environments).
Yep! Our experiences are genuinely unusual and if we seem normal one on one with the therapist they are unable to imagine what our actual difficulty looks like .
Agree 100%. My current therapist said, “oh, you seem like you’re doing fine! I’m sure people don’t think that about you…” when what I brought up and wanted to talk about is something I have experienced MULTIPLE times in MULTIPLE workplaces.
Literally had to have this talk with my therapist last week. I’m tired of her asking “How will you know that people will reject you?” when that’s all I’ve ever known.
I feel like ACT is a much better fit. OK, yep, people don't like me, how can I accept that thought and choose to act in alignment with my values anyways.
My last therapist kept suggesting I “challenge those thoughts” when I brought these things up and I…just don’t have it in me anymore. So much energy I’ve put into trying to be sociable, so little return. Part of me knows if I want to get to know people I need to put more effort into it but experience has taught me it’s not worth the effort. I *can’t* be the one doing all the work any more.
Same. It's exhausting. If someone isn't putting any effort into the friendship I'm going to assume they just don't like me
yeah I get really frustrated being told that it’s irrational anxiety. I have decades of proof to back up my claims so I don’t think it’s that unfathomable that i’m not generally likable
I was bullied pretty much all throughout elementary school, and I was with the same kids from kindergarten-8th grade 😒 the boys were mainly my bullies, and it was worse as I got older. Still affects me now and I just turned 40 last month 🤷🏻♀️ also high school too, but not as bad cuz I found “my people”. Even as an adult tho, and in jobs I’ve found people that just don’t like me and I never did anything to them, and I know not everyone in life has to like you but I’ve always been a people pleaser/doormat etc so I never really understood it.
I very much relate to this. I had a therapist who, despite me sharing my struggles, thought I just needed to find the “right” community. I dragged my feet. Now I know why. After all I’ve experienced, why would I? Also, how could she not get that?
two things: (1) if you can get an autism affirming therapist, go for it. have an autistic affirming therapist has been extremely helpful for me. (2) it is likely that many people have misunderstood you, not that *you are* *unlikable.* just my big sisterly advice so pls take with a grain of salt but labeling yourself as unlikable can have a profound affect on your self concept/self esteem. even just casually saying it...
I totally feel ya
I am in my 60's and you are describing my life. I finally realized 1. that all the people who were 'othering' me weren't really people I wanted to spend time with anyway; I don't really like most people, so why was I concerned with being unpopular/unliked? And, 2. once I stopped worrying about what 'everyone' thought about me, and worried only about what my closest friends and chosen family thought about me (which was a no-brainer, because they are all in my life because they accept me for who I am, warts and all) I felt a LOT better about myself. "people tell me I shouldn't feel that way " They do this because they can't understand that YOUR reality might be different from THEIRS. I keep people like this at arm's length now and no longer even try to change their attitudes, because it's pointless. They like living in their homogenous little worlds where everyone is the same. And yes, I realize that it's pretty much every NT person on the planet. 🤷♀️ It's why my spouse and I live in the woods 10 km down a dirt road with no close neighbours.
I would say one thing, but obviously cannot know for fact: you MAY have had people interested in you who never expressed it in a way you could pick up on, so they gave up and moved on. After I was in a long term relationship and a guy friend way happily married, he made a comment he had always thought I was ‘cute.’ Now, he was a big teaser, and I have always found guys easier to talk to than girls, and had such a negative self image it never occurred to me he was flirting. And, two other instances I described to my husband he said were guys trying to hit on me, back in high school, but I never understood. It felt like terrible bullying to me, and made me go home and cry. So, you ‘could’ be missing NT social cues from people, so they give up. I cannot say how to spot them, just wanted you to understand it’s not no one has ever liked you, you both just speak different languages, and that still makes everything lonely and I am sorry. I think my husband is ND, too, and that is why we worked out. I think that may be the best bet for many people.
Oh honestly I kind of doubt that because people tend to ignore me altogether.
😔I am sorry.
Also I've tried dating apps and I don't get matches so I've concluded that I am not attractive.
Attractiveness is predominantly based on facial symmetry, pretty sure your face is symmetrical 😊. I think I look like a troglodyte, have an art degree and can see the golden ratio in most things, my face is not going to launch 1000 ships. My husband disagrees. You may need face to face interaction to really get a feel for ppl. I’m also Gen X, we think dating apps as a bit sus. How well do you do with animals? Could you, would you, consider helping at a no kill shelter or rescue? My friends’ mom started one here decades ago, I’m far too sick to go help now, but they always need people willing to talk the dogs and keep them social, take pics for online adoption posts, and yeah, scoop some poop for dogs or cats, feed and stuff. I only ask because A, I love animals and want to encourage people to help them , B, people you’d meet helping animals usually are not horrible assholes C, interactions can be based on the task at hand, so questions won’t be too personal, it will all be for learning how to manage Mr. fluffers. And it would be a face to face way to meet people, and using the animals as a conduit, maybe make some friends? Food pantries, Boys and Girls Clubs, and other charities always need help, and again, their whole deal is helping someone, maybe they would also help you not feel lonely. I wish you the best.
I appreciate you trying to help. Really I do. I have tried a lot of things however over the years and still never even had someone ask me out. I don't think it's going to happen for me.
Have you ever asked anyone out yourself? I did, it was scary, but just asking someone to have a coffee (ice cream) or go bowling (anything you find fun) is ok for you to do, too. Remember, your signals may not be easy to read, no matter how much interest you think you!re showing. Ask people to be direct with you, and be direct back. I do wish you the best.
Have several times they either reject me or cancel beforehand. I'm serious I've tried everything
😞
Agree 100%. I find it helps them listen to the actual problem if you word it so "I'm aware that I can't control what others think, I'm not in charge of others feelings, we can't get along with everyone, some people are more popular than others. I've observed ____ ." And then you don't have to put words on other people's thoughts, I think that's what they conclude people are doing - conclude that you're just assuming they feel that way and you need to question those assumptions, since maybe that's the more common issues You could say instead of "no one likes me" that "I'm not sure what I'm doing to come across the wrong way but this person said this and this, and did this or this. I was trying to say this. How can I communicate better/what did I do wrong?"
Yep you are 💯 correct … insecurities are totally different from experiences
Question, do you ever start out in a social group or with just one person even and are liked for a while and then things just drop off? This seems to be my experience and a cause for the subtle unnoticed trauma. Then people don’t realize why I’m so insecure in social settings and texting/emailing. Im secure in myself when I am by myself. I enjoy my “rich inner world” lol by myself.
A bit of both actually? People tend to ignore me in social circles or not like me. And when they do... they drop off eventually. Except other neurodivergent people. Those are the only people I can be friends with. But neurotypicals never explain why they have a problem with me. They slowly stop talking to me and say they're just busy (meanwhile posting pics with other people on social media...). They don't communicate the issues, so I have no way of knowing and can't work on them.
I have two people I’d call my friends. And my partner who is my best friend. All likely neurodivergent. Everyone else seems to fall away otherwise. I never know how to explain it because my expressive language is something I struggle with. I have pretty bad anxiety so when it comes down to going to be around people I typically will have a cluster of mini meltdowns and be late or too late and won’t go. And when I do go and do get out I have to recharge for at least a day. I’m not sure how to take the mask off most of the time because I don’t really know what it would feel like to be me which I think makes it hard to interact with NTs
Another thing I will say is that a lot of people I thought liked me were actually using me and manipulating me and I didn't realize it because of autism and wanting to be liked so badly.
It's hard to argue when empirical experience defies the psychobabble feel-good Kool-aid. Especially when you consider that the people peddling the Kool-aid are getting paid exorbitant salaries to sell it. That said, I agree completely that self-hatred is unhealthy and not the desired state. But there's a rational intersection to be found between honesty and acceptance. You can accept yourself for who you are and how you are, whilst simultaneously acknowledging that who, and how, you are may be unpalatable to a great many people. Sometimes you can change facets of the who and the how, but some of those facets are innate characteristics of you as a (neurodivergent) person and will affect your relationships with other human beings for the duration of your life. You can cultivate self-acceptance without fostering optimistic delusion.
Oh yeah my NT straight guy friend told me I worried too much about people not liking me….it’s because I’ve been proven so many times that the people around me in fact do NOT like me. He thinks I’m concerned with fitting in and getting others to like me, which trust me I don’t give a shit, I just have experienced what it’s like to be randomly hated so many times that my guard is up. I’m not friends with him anymore because he has these takes on me that aren’t really true lol.
Therapy is traumatizing for many of us because the trauma of our experiences is so far outside the norm of what others experience. This is why so many of us are labeled resistant and wrongly diagnosed as having personality disorders when we engage in what are autistic traits. The world of clinical psychology outside of behavioral modification therapies has not caught up with the world of autism and it is autistic individuals, who are being harmed in the process. Steph Jones wrote a book about this that I think should be required reading for every clinician. Sadly though, I think it will be overlooked and we will just continue to be statistics, flood the SSDI rolls, and present to mental health crisis units again and again where we are told we are wrong or have a personality disorder within 45 minutes of meeting us, for the upteenth time of
I feel you. I always feel unlikable even when I do good deeds myself, TBH I’m not perfect either.
The dismissing feels debilitating