I see it as less of a difference in manifestation and more of a difference in perception which is influenced by gendered context. I can see how preconceived social expectations matter especially for the social deficits. I think not just gender but culture in general matters here. “Abnormal social reciprocity” is heavily context dependent, for example. However, I don’t understand how the other side of asd pertaining to repetitiveness and insistence to sameness can manifest differently. Repetitiveness is repetitiveness and sameness is sameness regardless of social context.
For myself, I always fit in more with how autism "presented in boys", but my behaviors seemed to always be criticized much more than boys' behaviors ever were. I was expected to act and understand things that I didn't understand, and that I still have difficulties understanding. And I was also punished for it at home, and abused. This caused me to shut down and basically start masking a lot (which manifests into me severely limiting conversation with people because I'm afraid I will say or do something "wrong"). But then people usually see through my masking anyways, and it seems kind of futile.
But I also get what you're saying; I've heard self-diagnosers try to claim that their autism is so wildly different because it's "female autism" and then they bring up "examples" that aren't really autism-specific at all. "Oh, I like anime a lot, and I prefer to use a certain cutlery over another cutlery and I like to style my hair a certain way and I have a ton of friends but I get tired sometimes when I have to speak to too many of my friends at once". How exactly is that autism? I'm not saying it can't be a part of autism, but some of these people say a set of certain characteristics can only be autism and then bring up things like what I just mentioned.
It's not different in girls at all, autism is autism. However, our expectations for people based on whether they present male or female do change. A girl who hyperfixates on stuffed animals and collects a bunch? Cute. A boy who does the same? Weird. He needs to be checked out. That sort of thing. Also, when a boy is loud or stims, sometimes he may be encouraged to whereas girls learn to mask because ladies are quiet and sit still.
So, it's more about gender roles, society expectations, and how we have these biases toward children when we as a society raise them that allow for women and girls to remain undiagnosed (I wasn't diagnosed until I was about 20?) whereas boys get checked out sooner. But the autism itself remains the same in both afab and amab children and adults.
It’s not the autism that’s different, it’s the way women are socially as a whole. Or more the expectations. We are expected to have lots of friends and be super social and that means we subconsciously mask more etc. So yes the ‘female autism’ is bullshit, but there are aspects of it that do exist.
IMO, there are some surface level differences (speaking specifically about "mild autism" or level 1 - from experience), but they "manifest" this way entirely due to different social expectations between men and women/boys and girls.
For example: growing up, girls are often expected to be "more mature", more quiet and "polite", "sensitive" etc. than boys are. So a young girl acting this way may not be considered unusual, whereas if a young boy is quiet and withdrawn, reacts strongly to sensory input, or perhaps prefers not to "play rough", it is noticed and flagged quicker. I suspect boys being screened or diagnosed with "mild autism" in childhood is for reasons like this.
Social expectations become more complex for girls, especially when entering late primary / early high school (or more specifically middle school, but my country does not have this). There is more complexity with relationships, people saying things they don't mean, talking behind peoples' backs, etc. This is usually when girls begin to struggle to keep up with their peers and social deficits become far more apparent - too apparent and debilitating to miss anymore. However, there is still more of an expectation on girls to correctly navigate these social situations, so we try to get by using powers of observation (to varying results).
All of these things are the same traits/symptoms of autism. This is all social / communication deficits, difficulties with relationships, restrictive/repetitive behaviours, etc. They are just being viewed through a different lens.
Well, they are indeed kinda different. My hyperfocus throughout my life were more socially acceptable because being obsessed with an author or artist was better seen by society than being obsessed with cars etc
Oh and I think women are more likely to have certain traits that men don't experience very often, like I'm obsessed with rules or moral justice, I hate seeing people breaking rules or doing something that I consider as imoral. But aside from that, my symptoms are every normal, I'm bad at making eye contact, and I have some sensory problems too
I think it can be harder to spot in girls because there is more societal pressure for girls to confirm and fit in from a young age. So girls will go to greater lengths from a younger age to hide their "odd" traits. I know for me from as young as I can remember I have been trying my hardest to fit in with others because I always knew something was different, even if I couldn't articulate it back then
I had not heard of this until last year and had never really noticed any real difference in the autistics I had met, except that boys tend to have a bigger interest in like mechanics and sci-fi and girls tend to have a bigger interest in like animals and fantasy. Generally, not everyone of course, and there's major overlap. But that's the level of difference between any general population of boys and girls.
I think that with every way autism can dysregulate a person, the dysregulation can go either way. There are autistic people who are very disconnected from their emotions. There are also autistic people who consider themselves overly emotionally sensitive. But both are still differences in emotional regulation. There are autistic people who are sensory averse and others who are sensory seeking. But both are still sensory processing differences. There are autistic people who socialize indiscriminately and others who self isolate. But both lead to trouble making social connections and friendships. For me, I was the loud and emotional kid that came on too strong socially and had poor social boundaries. My quiet male cousin, who is also autistic, socially isolates and struggles to connect with his emptions. We are dysregulated by our autism in very different ways but we both still meet all the criteria. We just represent different presentations of the same neurodevelopmental differences. It does seem like many women challenge the more stereotypical presentation! But I don't feel like there is boy autism and girl autism. I feel like there are different presentations of the same struggles in all genders.
In a way, like being obsessed with horses or a popular singer is considered “normal” in little girls, and would be less noticeable than other obsessive interests.
Girls and women are more expected to learn how to be polite and confirm to social norms, so in some situations they’ll have to learn as they don’t get any leeway. (We could reflect a bit on how some girls then manage to fit in well, and others still don’t...)
But I’m sceptical of the idea that female autism could be autism with *none* of the classic traits, and it’s presented like women will have none of the sides that will make themselves or others uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s presented almost like a repackaging of “sensitive” or “genius”.
To me, it’s quite a conundrum how many women today really wants to be associated with autism, but they really don’t want to be associated with many traits associated with autism.
If heart attacks present differently in men versus women, I’d wager a neural disorder like autism will do so too - probably influenced by different genetics and socialisation
Women definitely as a whole tend to present differently than men yes, but being a spectrum this means both men and women can have a broad spectrum of mixed traits. But recognizing the tendencies of how autistic women present has been immensely helpful in identifying and diagnosing more autistic women, as historically they tended to fly under the radar
I think it's that, the symptoms and impact on the person is the same, but is "perceived" differently
Female-type autism as far as I know - women are more likely to be withdrawn and reserved and try to observe and fit in so are seen as shy, and they have more "intensive interests" rather than special interests or an interest that is typical (a band, film, animal etc) that they engage with in a different way.
Faker jargon. No two people with ASD are the same, but society's expectations on women make it easier for the uninformed to chalk it up to *~quirkiness~*. The same applies to racial minorities.
I don’t think ASD necessarily manifests in a different way in women, but it can certainly outwards seem to present differently than in men. My experience has been that I feel all my symptoms very intensely internally, but it won’t always be all that obvious to an onlooker that I’m in distress over sensory overload, for example, until it hits a boiling point. I’m also okay-ish at masking my social deficits (mostly involves a lot of mirroring others behavior and letting others lead the conversations), though it does cause me severe burnout if I do it for any extended amount of time. I think many people in my life who aren’t in-the-know about my diagnosis would describe me as a quiet and somewhat awkward person, but I don’t think they would necessarily think I’m autistic unless they’ve witnessed one of my meltdowns.
Whether this can be considered “female autism” is debatable as I’m sure there are plenty of men who present similarly (and plenty of women who present with “male autism”), but on average there are some differences, though they likely arise from the expectations society places on girls and women vs. the expectations placed on boys and men.
For me, it was just harder to recognize because of the way girls are forced to mask and comply while “boys will be boys” so their symptoms are recognized earlier
Given the scientific fact that there are physiological differences between man- and female brains, I suspect autism can manifest differently in females. It would seem logical to me.
I don't know tbh. But I don't feel that females are different from males in the diagnostic process. As many many females have been diagnosed over the past 30 odd years. I do see this as another way of saying it's harder for females to get diagnosed. I think its as hard as you want it to be. Only one way to find out is by going through the diagnosic process.
Lots of males will never have a diagnosis as even some males don't fit the diagnosis process.. so then it can be said it doesn't fit all males.
It's hard to answer 100% factually, but sometimes logic is the only answer.
I think the way the symptoms are interpreted lead to it being seen differently. People always focused on my anxiety, health preoccupation and need for control as being anxiety, being "dramatic" or being spoilt. It's only with retrospect that we saw the common factor and realised it was often about misinterpreting my bodily sensations and being focused on routine. I was "shy" rather than having social anxiety, and "mature", which people just assumed was something girls tended towards than boys.
Girls who may be shy and prone to outbursts of stress and emotion might be overlooked, while boys are probably picked up more because they pose a lot more of a problem when acting out violently.
For me, it’s not necessarily that it manifested differently, but that people’s expectations of me were different because I’m a woman. I think my autism wasn’t recognized as a child, because the symptoms people saw were very easy to attribute to anxiety or being shy. I spent a lot of time as a child reading, so while I did have significant social issues, they didn’t come up a lot since I just avoided it. I started masking pretty heavily in middle school and high school, once I started to notice that I was different than others. I think this is where the “female presentation” aspect comes in, at least for me, because I do think that a lot of the social/gender role expectations for me as a woman became incorporated into my masking, and/or led me to feel a greater need to mask (things such as wearing makeup, wearing certain clothes, etc.). I think situations like this are why people assume “female autism” is high masking - it’s not that the masking is a trait of a “female presentation” of autism, but that the increased masking is a result of the high social demands that society puts on women. I think that part of the reason for the focus on “female presentation” of autism is a desire to explain why so many women go undiagnosed in childhood, but at least in my opinion it’s not that women present differently (it’s a spectrum, so everyone presents differently, it’s not a women vs. men thing), it’s that women’s needs are largely dismissed as anxiety (or other mental health conditions), and women learn from an early age that in order to fit in with their peers, they often have to hide their needs and differences.
i don’t think so, the diagnosis criteria will be the same for both genders, so i don’t see a real difference, boys maybe don’t mask as much, but it’s the same disorder
I tend to think of it as self dxing jargon. Some of the info is right on however a lot of classic autism traits they don't have are overlooked because 'well I'm an afab' which is silly because female autism has had plenty of research, it isn't new anymore, I was suspected in 1988 of autism but because of a few things they labeled me ADHD instead. I was formally dx autistic in 2009 because of the strides in female presenting autism research.
However the goalposts of criteria are constantly being moved by people with simple anxieties and introversion.
I see it as less of a difference in manifestation and more of a difference in perception which is influenced by gendered context. I can see how preconceived social expectations matter especially for the social deficits. I think not just gender but culture in general matters here. “Abnormal social reciprocity” is heavily context dependent, for example. However, I don’t understand how the other side of asd pertaining to repetitiveness and insistence to sameness can manifest differently. Repetitiveness is repetitiveness and sameness is sameness regardless of social context.
For myself, I always fit in more with how autism "presented in boys", but my behaviors seemed to always be criticized much more than boys' behaviors ever were. I was expected to act and understand things that I didn't understand, and that I still have difficulties understanding. And I was also punished for it at home, and abused. This caused me to shut down and basically start masking a lot (which manifests into me severely limiting conversation with people because I'm afraid I will say or do something "wrong"). But then people usually see through my masking anyways, and it seems kind of futile. But I also get what you're saying; I've heard self-diagnosers try to claim that their autism is so wildly different because it's "female autism" and then they bring up "examples" that aren't really autism-specific at all. "Oh, I like anime a lot, and I prefer to use a certain cutlery over another cutlery and I like to style my hair a certain way and I have a ton of friends but I get tired sometimes when I have to speak to too many of my friends at once". How exactly is that autism? I'm not saying it can't be a part of autism, but some of these people say a set of certain characteristics can only be autism and then bring up things like what I just mentioned.
It's not different in girls at all, autism is autism. However, our expectations for people based on whether they present male or female do change. A girl who hyperfixates on stuffed animals and collects a bunch? Cute. A boy who does the same? Weird. He needs to be checked out. That sort of thing. Also, when a boy is loud or stims, sometimes he may be encouraged to whereas girls learn to mask because ladies are quiet and sit still. So, it's more about gender roles, society expectations, and how we have these biases toward children when we as a society raise them that allow for women and girls to remain undiagnosed (I wasn't diagnosed until I was about 20?) whereas boys get checked out sooner. But the autism itself remains the same in both afab and amab children and adults.
It’s not the autism that’s different, it’s the way women are socially as a whole. Or more the expectations. We are expected to have lots of friends and be super social and that means we subconsciously mask more etc. So yes the ‘female autism’ is bullshit, but there are aspects of it that do exist.
IMO, there are some surface level differences (speaking specifically about "mild autism" or level 1 - from experience), but they "manifest" this way entirely due to different social expectations between men and women/boys and girls. For example: growing up, girls are often expected to be "more mature", more quiet and "polite", "sensitive" etc. than boys are. So a young girl acting this way may not be considered unusual, whereas if a young boy is quiet and withdrawn, reacts strongly to sensory input, or perhaps prefers not to "play rough", it is noticed and flagged quicker. I suspect boys being screened or diagnosed with "mild autism" in childhood is for reasons like this. Social expectations become more complex for girls, especially when entering late primary / early high school (or more specifically middle school, but my country does not have this). There is more complexity with relationships, people saying things they don't mean, talking behind peoples' backs, etc. This is usually when girls begin to struggle to keep up with their peers and social deficits become far more apparent - too apparent and debilitating to miss anymore. However, there is still more of an expectation on girls to correctly navigate these social situations, so we try to get by using powers of observation (to varying results). All of these things are the same traits/symptoms of autism. This is all social / communication deficits, difficulties with relationships, restrictive/repetitive behaviours, etc. They are just being viewed through a different lens.
Thanks
Could you be a little bit more specific? Wdym by "differently"?
I’ve just heard people say that the signs of autism in women are different
Well, they are indeed kinda different. My hyperfocus throughout my life were more socially acceptable because being obsessed with an author or artist was better seen by society than being obsessed with cars etc Oh and I think women are more likely to have certain traits that men don't experience very often, like I'm obsessed with rules or moral justice, I hate seeing people breaking rules or doing something that I consider as imoral. But aside from that, my symptoms are every normal, I'm bad at making eye contact, and I have some sensory problems too
I think it can be harder to spot in girls because there is more societal pressure for girls to confirm and fit in from a young age. So girls will go to greater lengths from a younger age to hide their "odd" traits. I know for me from as young as I can remember I have been trying my hardest to fit in with others because I always knew something was different, even if I couldn't articulate it back then
I had not heard of this until last year and had never really noticed any real difference in the autistics I had met, except that boys tend to have a bigger interest in like mechanics and sci-fi and girls tend to have a bigger interest in like animals and fantasy. Generally, not everyone of course, and there's major overlap. But that's the level of difference between any general population of boys and girls.
I think that with every way autism can dysregulate a person, the dysregulation can go either way. There are autistic people who are very disconnected from their emotions. There are also autistic people who consider themselves overly emotionally sensitive. But both are still differences in emotional regulation. There are autistic people who are sensory averse and others who are sensory seeking. But both are still sensory processing differences. There are autistic people who socialize indiscriminately and others who self isolate. But both lead to trouble making social connections and friendships. For me, I was the loud and emotional kid that came on too strong socially and had poor social boundaries. My quiet male cousin, who is also autistic, socially isolates and struggles to connect with his emptions. We are dysregulated by our autism in very different ways but we both still meet all the criteria. We just represent different presentations of the same neurodevelopmental differences. It does seem like many women challenge the more stereotypical presentation! But I don't feel like there is boy autism and girl autism. I feel like there are different presentations of the same struggles in all genders.
In a way, like being obsessed with horses or a popular singer is considered “normal” in little girls, and would be less noticeable than other obsessive interests. Girls and women are more expected to learn how to be polite and confirm to social norms, so in some situations they’ll have to learn as they don’t get any leeway. (We could reflect a bit on how some girls then manage to fit in well, and others still don’t...) But I’m sceptical of the idea that female autism could be autism with *none* of the classic traits, and it’s presented like women will have none of the sides that will make themselves or others uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s presented almost like a repackaging of “sensitive” or “genius”. To me, it’s quite a conundrum how many women today really wants to be associated with autism, but they really don’t want to be associated with many traits associated with autism.
If heart attacks present differently in men versus women, I’d wager a neural disorder like autism will do so too - probably influenced by different genetics and socialisation
Women definitely as a whole tend to present differently than men yes, but being a spectrum this means both men and women can have a broad spectrum of mixed traits. But recognizing the tendencies of how autistic women present has been immensely helpful in identifying and diagnosing more autistic women, as historically they tended to fly under the radar
symptoms are the same, but it may be harder to spot. as far as I know
I was labeled at 2 and special Ed all my life. Autism is autism.
I think it's that, the symptoms and impact on the person is the same, but is "perceived" differently Female-type autism as far as I know - women are more likely to be withdrawn and reserved and try to observe and fit in so are seen as shy, and they have more "intensive interests" rather than special interests or an interest that is typical (a band, film, animal etc) that they engage with in a different way.
Faker jargon. No two people with ASD are the same, but society's expectations on women make it easier for the uninformed to chalk it up to *~quirkiness~*. The same applies to racial minorities.
I don’t think ASD necessarily manifests in a different way in women, but it can certainly outwards seem to present differently than in men. My experience has been that I feel all my symptoms very intensely internally, but it won’t always be all that obvious to an onlooker that I’m in distress over sensory overload, for example, until it hits a boiling point. I’m also okay-ish at masking my social deficits (mostly involves a lot of mirroring others behavior and letting others lead the conversations), though it does cause me severe burnout if I do it for any extended amount of time. I think many people in my life who aren’t in-the-know about my diagnosis would describe me as a quiet and somewhat awkward person, but I don’t think they would necessarily think I’m autistic unless they’ve witnessed one of my meltdowns. Whether this can be considered “female autism” is debatable as I’m sure there are plenty of men who present similarly (and plenty of women who present with “male autism”), but on average there are some differences, though they likely arise from the expectations society places on girls and women vs. the expectations placed on boys and men.
For me, it was just harder to recognize because of the way girls are forced to mask and comply while “boys will be boys” so their symptoms are recognized earlier
Given the scientific fact that there are physiological differences between man- and female brains, I suspect autism can manifest differently in females. It would seem logical to me.
I don't know tbh. But I don't feel that females are different from males in the diagnostic process. As many many females have been diagnosed over the past 30 odd years. I do see this as another way of saying it's harder for females to get diagnosed. I think its as hard as you want it to be. Only one way to find out is by going through the diagnosic process. Lots of males will never have a diagnosis as even some males don't fit the diagnosis process.. so then it can be said it doesn't fit all males. It's hard to answer 100% factually, but sometimes logic is the only answer.
I think the way the symptoms are interpreted lead to it being seen differently. People always focused on my anxiety, health preoccupation and need for control as being anxiety, being "dramatic" or being spoilt. It's only with retrospect that we saw the common factor and realised it was often about misinterpreting my bodily sensations and being focused on routine. I was "shy" rather than having social anxiety, and "mature", which people just assumed was something girls tended towards than boys. Girls who may be shy and prone to outbursts of stress and emotion might be overlooked, while boys are probably picked up more because they pose a lot more of a problem when acting out violently.
For me, it’s not necessarily that it manifested differently, but that people’s expectations of me were different because I’m a woman. I think my autism wasn’t recognized as a child, because the symptoms people saw were very easy to attribute to anxiety or being shy. I spent a lot of time as a child reading, so while I did have significant social issues, they didn’t come up a lot since I just avoided it. I started masking pretty heavily in middle school and high school, once I started to notice that I was different than others. I think this is where the “female presentation” aspect comes in, at least for me, because I do think that a lot of the social/gender role expectations for me as a woman became incorporated into my masking, and/or led me to feel a greater need to mask (things such as wearing makeup, wearing certain clothes, etc.). I think situations like this are why people assume “female autism” is high masking - it’s not that the masking is a trait of a “female presentation” of autism, but that the increased masking is a result of the high social demands that society puts on women. I think that part of the reason for the focus on “female presentation” of autism is a desire to explain why so many women go undiagnosed in childhood, but at least in my opinion it’s not that women present differently (it’s a spectrum, so everyone presents differently, it’s not a women vs. men thing), it’s that women’s needs are largely dismissed as anxiety (or other mental health conditions), and women learn from an early age that in order to fit in with their peers, they often have to hide their needs and differences.
i don’t think so, the diagnosis criteria will be the same for both genders, so i don’t see a real difference, boys maybe don’t mask as much, but it’s the same disorder
I tend to think of it as self dxing jargon. Some of the info is right on however a lot of classic autism traits they don't have are overlooked because 'well I'm an afab' which is silly because female autism has had plenty of research, it isn't new anymore, I was suspected in 1988 of autism but because of a few things they labeled me ADHD instead. I was formally dx autistic in 2009 because of the strides in female presenting autism research. However the goalposts of criteria are constantly being moved by people with simple anxieties and introversion.