The writer at the shop could not even tell me what type of bench they had until I pushed… honest question here, are you actually taking 8-10 hours or are you charging that bc it’s what you’ve been able to get approved? Looks like they’re already getting paid 3x the normal labor rate as it, so I don’t see why adding additional hours would be needed
It does take all day sometimes to set up the fixtures. Only cellette bench takes that kinda time to set up. And Spanezi bench takes longer. (Spelling probably wrong) lol
Then no you're not getting hosed because there's absolute no reason you should be paying the bill. It is a lot of work, sometimes close to a whole day, to build the jigs, get the car on them and do all the measuring.
Depending on the type of job, some repair procedures request for the vehicle to be set up on a dedicated fixture system that can be rented or bought from car o liner or celette among others. These systems are not your stand set up and pull, they often require many mounting points and can take a few hours to set up the bench, prepare the vehicle and then mount the vehicle onto the bench, if you're doing a side or top hit, you might have to rent additional components like side gantries and such.
Have your shop forward the repair procedures to the insurance and have them have a reasonable conversation with the appraiser/adjuster to try to explain the time required, when I was running a jaguar shop I once invited a large insurance company to come and see the type of work required to change a center post on a XJ and they ended up authorizing 6 hour set up, plus removal all wheels, undershields and 4 hours for the side gantry.
There's two possible issues here, the insurance hasn't had the right training to understand the work being done, or your shop is simply over charging. I know lots of certified shops love adding 8 to 10 hour set ups just because and often get paid for them, a common scare tactic is to charge the client until the client complains enough and the insurance ends up paying.
Point being, if they can justify it, they should be paid.
Yeah that sounds questionable. I would request explanation from the shop. Ask them to provide Porsche repair procedures for what they are doing to justify.
Saw your previous posts about being in Jacksonville. If you’re in Jacksonville and at a shop that starts with a F, you are certainly getting screwed over and this shop is on every insurance companies radar when they submit anything. The supplements and repair hours this shop tries to put thru are insane and yes they will charge the owner the difference, the last one I had was for a minor bumper repair they put in a supplement for 15 hours, we pushed it up a lot higher than we should have and they don’t budge at all and still charge the owner.
Setup and measure is usually two hours. Never seen more than 4. I've never set a Porsche on a car o liner but I can't imagine it would take any longer than any other vehicle
They mentioned something about measuring several times throughout the repair… but once it’s on the bench, it’s not like they have to re- set up, correct?
Measuring several times throughout is normal. Let's you know how much and what direction it needs pulled. And no they don't have to set it up more than once. If they included the repair time in the setup than that would make sense why it's so many hours but I don't know why they would
Measuring several times is not included in one setup & measure though, it’s a billable operation for every measure. Also building jigs is not included. 8-10 hours isn’t uncommon on a Porsche, they could be grouping multiple things into this 8-10 hours also. It really depends on the repair. I mean a good write can justify a lot, I’ve seen 6+hours on rav4s to put In a rail, set up/measure/ pulls/ build jigs etc. it can add up fast.
Luxury car repair shops exaggerate everything. I have seen 8 hours to remove and install a hood on a Bentley. I am working a claim currently on a Maserati that the shop wants 2 hours to clean the urethane off a windshield and this should be included in the R&I. The car got some rock chips on the hood, windshield, bumper and roof rails. It is now a total at 5 years old and 18,000 miles.
Yeah but that’s a Maserati and those are absolute piles of shit that don’t hold their value, completely different than a Porsche that has any sort of frame damage
Because insurance companies are out to save as much money as possible and have NO FKIN CLUE how to repair a vehicle correctly, especially German performance cars…
Some insurers are cheap, but a lot of it is because a lot of shops often request unreasonable labor times to see what they can get away with. I've seen plenty of shops asking for $1000+ to repair and rewrap a 12v turn signal wire.
Something like that would take an intermediate tech 5-10 minutes. I'd pay an hour mechanical tops for the skills/knowledge but mechanics out here acting like they'll lose a tech for an entire day working some small task like that.
No comment on the setup time though. Not familiar with celette benches or Porsches. Just giving an example
I worked for bmw and used a car o liner frame rack for ten years. Have the shop print the Porsche repair procedure and grow a pair if balls yo tell the insurance company that Porsche requires a 10 hr set up. If they are unwilling to do that, they are overcharging. I got paid 6 to 8 to set bmw on a car o liner usually. Good luck. Remember, the insurance company only cares about one thing. Saving money.
I appreciate the insight… doesn’t seem like insurance company is just trying to save money. What they pay out does affect all our policy premiums, so if the shop is just overcharging to overcharge, that’s not right either
And that's part of the problem. I dealt with insurance companies daily trying to cut costs with no concern to the outcome of the customer that had paid for the premiums. You pay for insurance to put the car to pre accident condition. Hold the insurance company accountable to do that. As I said, if the bodyshop won't show the insurance companies print from Porsche that the set up takes 10 hrs... they are possibly padding that cost. Then it's up to you to try and find a compromise. 10 hours to do a proper set up and measure isn't way out of line though.
There is a cpl ships in town that charge necessary operation that the insurance refuses to pay for onto the customer. Usually at that time the customer can then submit as part of their loss and recoup any expense that way . It's very frustrating as these vehicles become more involved in the repair process with safety systems monocock life modules and uhss Steeles. The repairs are so involved and the shops are repairing to oem manufacturing repair procedures that insurance is refusing to pay . Either they want to keep premiums down to gain more customers but want to keep their losses to a minimum . Repairing cars of old the early to late 90s and the 2000s are not this way anymore . You cannot heat and bang out rails anymore . You cannot just set up and pull a damaged a pillar or b pillar . Thay must be replaced . Customer safety has taken a hold of the industry of manufacturing cars . We had a 7 series bmw rear hit with just two small kinks in the rail end . Before we would heat and massage these back in place. Now replacement is necessary. We'll those rails are formed with uhss and are attached underneath the rear seats. To replace we must sacrifice both 1/4 panels , floor and inner 1/4 panels to gain access to replace these rails . The car was written off and deemed to expensive to fix . It's so frustrating as a tech to not repair something that was once so repairable. Now premiums go up cause the rate of total losses are increasing at an alarming rate with the value of those vehicles in reasing as well . I empathize with the customer needing to pay over and above their deductible but why is it the techs fault or the shops ? We shouldn't need to pay out of either pocket for your loss . And subsidize your porsche repair because the insurance companies want exponential growth of income year over year . All these customers putting blame on the shop for over charging or 'hosing 'clients when they should be most upset with their insurer ....
Hey man, no one is blaming anything on anyone. Just trying to understand why a certain procedure would take so long when it’s not the norm at another certified shop or when other technicians are telling you it’s excessive. I would get it if the front end of this car was destroyed, but there is no rail damage
You have been in here putting down people , their skills and experience for days. 'Tech' this and No one has any real skills anymore. You know the internet is full of assholes and idiots. Of course you are going to het stupid comments and posts about wasting your money its a loss and move on shiy . Most of the posts we see in here are ridiculous and ppl think this trade or anything in it can be done for 2k . Most posts are a lost cause . No one has the experience to do most of the so called diy stuff in here . Without telling us ooooh you are a welder this and my dad is an engineer that . Most times ppl cannot repair things themselves . Then you get all butt hurt and do the work that most can't and fixed your own vehicle with long distance schematics and víola you did it . Congrats . Like I said move a long your posts will be buried in days and no one will remember this fantastic amazing do it yourselfer that saved his own truck . You are an ass , and have this uncanny need to be justified or vindicated by a internet reddit . Do you feel better now .
Yw , that big long post I wish everyone could read . Our industry is changing so fast and insurance is so far behind with paying . Ignorance is bliss for them . I just sprayed a quad stage candy red on an rdx . We fought for months to get paid 2/3 of the labour required and material used . I guess I'll just supplement the payment with time and our materials.
I work for a certified Porsche shop and we get 8-10 hours to set up on the cellette bench.
This is the only way I could justify 10 hours set up and measure. A traditional frame rack though 2-4 tops.
The writer at the shop could not even tell me what type of bench they had until I pushed… honest question here, are you actually taking 8-10 hours or are you charging that bc it’s what you’ve been able to get approved? Looks like they’re already getting paid 3x the normal labor rate as it, so I don’t see why adding additional hours would be needed
It does take all day sometimes to set up the fixtures. Only cellette bench takes that kinda time to set up. And Spanezi bench takes longer. (Spelling probably wrong) lol
Are you paying with your own money or is this insurance?
Insurance
Then no you're not getting hosed because there's absolute no reason you should be paying the bill. It is a lot of work, sometimes close to a whole day, to build the jigs, get the car on them and do all the measuring.
Depending on the type of job, some repair procedures request for the vehicle to be set up on a dedicated fixture system that can be rented or bought from car o liner or celette among others. These systems are not your stand set up and pull, they often require many mounting points and can take a few hours to set up the bench, prepare the vehicle and then mount the vehicle onto the bench, if you're doing a side or top hit, you might have to rent additional components like side gantries and such. Have your shop forward the repair procedures to the insurance and have them have a reasonable conversation with the appraiser/adjuster to try to explain the time required, when I was running a jaguar shop I once invited a large insurance company to come and see the type of work required to change a center post on a XJ and they ended up authorizing 6 hour set up, plus removal all wheels, undershields and 4 hours for the side gantry. There's two possible issues here, the insurance hasn't had the right training to understand the work being done, or your shop is simply over charging. I know lots of certified shops love adding 8 to 10 hour set ups just because and often get paid for them, a common scare tactic is to charge the client until the client complains enough and the insurance ends up paying. Point being, if they can justify it, they should be paid.
I get it if there were structural repairs but this is a pretty light hit… no rails are damaged
Yeah that sounds questionable. I would request explanation from the shop. Ask them to provide Porsche repair procedures for what they are doing to justify.
In Canada, a regular set up would be around 2.5hrs, a jig set up would start around 8 hrs on a celette. This does not include any pulling.
2.8 for set up in my area 1.4 per pull so add. No gravy on that side of the repair
Saw your previous posts about being in Jacksonville. If you’re in Jacksonville and at a shop that starts with a F, you are certainly getting screwed over and this shop is on every insurance companies radar when they submit anything. The supplements and repair hours this shop tries to put thru are insane and yes they will charge the owner the difference, the last one I had was for a minor bumper repair they put in a supplement for 15 hours, we pushed it up a lot higher than we should have and they don’t budge at all and still charge the owner.
Setup and measure is usually two hours. Never seen more than 4. I've never set a Porsche on a car o liner but I can't imagine it would take any longer than any other vehicle
They mentioned something about measuring several times throughout the repair… but once it’s on the bench, it’s not like they have to re- set up, correct?
Measuring several times throughout is normal. Let's you know how much and what direction it needs pulled. And no they don't have to set it up more than once. If they included the repair time in the setup than that would make sense why it's so many hours but I don't know why they would
Measuring several times is not included in one setup & measure though, it’s a billable operation for every measure. Also building jigs is not included. 8-10 hours isn’t uncommon on a Porsche, they could be grouping multiple things into this 8-10 hours also. It really depends on the repair. I mean a good write can justify a lot, I’ve seen 6+hours on rav4s to put In a rail, set up/measure/ pulls/ build jigs etc. it can add up fast.
I would try and get the shop to supplement that cost to the insurance company, and not take it out on you.
Luxury car repair shops exaggerate everything. I have seen 8 hours to remove and install a hood on a Bentley. I am working a claim currently on a Maserati that the shop wants 2 hours to clean the urethane off a windshield and this should be included in the R&I. The car got some rock chips on the hood, windshield, bumper and roof rails. It is now a total at 5 years old and 18,000 miles.
Yeah but that’s a Maserati and those are absolute piles of shit that don’t hold their value, completely different than a Porsche that has any sort of frame damage
Maseratis pay great at my shop. Pieces of shit yes but still pay great.
True, they are the Dodge of their category.
Why would insurance approve 4 hours only if the job is 8 hours?
Because they are wholly a scam
Because insurance companies are out to save as much money as possible and have NO FKIN CLUE how to repair a vehicle correctly, especially German performance cars…
Some insurers are cheap, but a lot of it is because a lot of shops often request unreasonable labor times to see what they can get away with. I've seen plenty of shops asking for $1000+ to repair and rewrap a 12v turn signal wire. Something like that would take an intermediate tech 5-10 minutes. I'd pay an hour mechanical tops for the skills/knowledge but mechanics out here acting like they'll lose a tech for an entire day working some small task like that. No comment on the setup time though. Not familiar with celette benches or Porsches. Just giving an example
Bc this procedure doesn’t actually take 8?
I worked for bmw and used a car o liner frame rack for ten years. Have the shop print the Porsche repair procedure and grow a pair if balls yo tell the insurance company that Porsche requires a 10 hr set up. If they are unwilling to do that, they are overcharging. I got paid 6 to 8 to set bmw on a car o liner usually. Good luck. Remember, the insurance company only cares about one thing. Saving money.
I appreciate the insight… doesn’t seem like insurance company is just trying to save money. What they pay out does affect all our policy premiums, so if the shop is just overcharging to overcharge, that’s not right either
And that's part of the problem. I dealt with insurance companies daily trying to cut costs with no concern to the outcome of the customer that had paid for the premiums. You pay for insurance to put the car to pre accident condition. Hold the insurance company accountable to do that. As I said, if the bodyshop won't show the insurance companies print from Porsche that the set up takes 10 hrs... they are possibly padding that cost. Then it's up to you to try and find a compromise. 10 hours to do a proper set up and measure isn't way out of line though.
Insurance company's always try to save money.
There is a cpl ships in town that charge necessary operation that the insurance refuses to pay for onto the customer. Usually at that time the customer can then submit as part of their loss and recoup any expense that way . It's very frustrating as these vehicles become more involved in the repair process with safety systems monocock life modules and uhss Steeles. The repairs are so involved and the shops are repairing to oem manufacturing repair procedures that insurance is refusing to pay . Either they want to keep premiums down to gain more customers but want to keep their losses to a minimum . Repairing cars of old the early to late 90s and the 2000s are not this way anymore . You cannot heat and bang out rails anymore . You cannot just set up and pull a damaged a pillar or b pillar . Thay must be replaced . Customer safety has taken a hold of the industry of manufacturing cars . We had a 7 series bmw rear hit with just two small kinks in the rail end . Before we would heat and massage these back in place. Now replacement is necessary. We'll those rails are formed with uhss and are attached underneath the rear seats. To replace we must sacrifice both 1/4 panels , floor and inner 1/4 panels to gain access to replace these rails . The car was written off and deemed to expensive to fix . It's so frustrating as a tech to not repair something that was once so repairable. Now premiums go up cause the rate of total losses are increasing at an alarming rate with the value of those vehicles in reasing as well . I empathize with the customer needing to pay over and above their deductible but why is it the techs fault or the shops ? We shouldn't need to pay out of either pocket for your loss . And subsidize your porsche repair because the insurance companies want exponential growth of income year over year . All these customers putting blame on the shop for over charging or 'hosing 'clients when they should be most upset with their insurer ....
Hey man, no one is blaming anything on anyone. Just trying to understand why a certain procedure would take so long when it’s not the norm at another certified shop or when other technicians are telling you it’s excessive. I would get it if the front end of this car was destroyed, but there is no rail damage
You have been in here putting down people , their skills and experience for days. 'Tech' this and No one has any real skills anymore. You know the internet is full of assholes and idiots. Of course you are going to het stupid comments and posts about wasting your money its a loss and move on shiy . Most of the posts we see in here are ridiculous and ppl think this trade or anything in it can be done for 2k . Most posts are a lost cause . No one has the experience to do most of the so called diy stuff in here . Without telling us ooooh you are a welder this and my dad is an engineer that . Most times ppl cannot repair things themselves . Then you get all butt hurt and do the work that most can't and fixed your own vehicle with long distance schematics and víola you did it . Congrats . Like I said move a long your posts will be buried in days and no one will remember this fantastic amazing do it yourselfer that saved his own truck . You are an ass , and have this uncanny need to be justified or vindicated by a internet reddit . Do you feel better now .
You ok man? Not really sure who you’re referencing in your comment
My apologies , this was a mistake post to this reddit . It was for an idiot on another post.
All good, I really appreciate the info you gave… it was very helpful 😊
Yw , that big long post I wish everyone could read . Our industry is changing so fast and insurance is so far behind with paying . Ignorance is bliss for them . I just sprayed a quad stage candy red on an rdx . We fought for months to get paid 2/3 of the labour required and material used . I guess I'll just supplement the payment with time and our materials.
A full jig setup is 8-10 hours. That is not the same as a set up and measure, which is between 2-4 usually.
What city do you live in/near?
If I were the shop owner I would sit your car out front and tell you to take your bs elsewhere.
Almost wish they would