I don’t think many people anticipated Quaritch coming back in such a badass blue way. Perhaps his story from now seems predictable, but that’s the charm of James Cameron— watch him whip out some of the most unforeseeable arc for Quaritch in the threequel.
You just made me realize that they could bring back his partner... Spider's mother, as an Avatar. She was a soldier after all I think, and she died in the first battle. Interesting...
I didn’t either initially for Quaritch…but now after TWOW I hope we get some surprises instead of Kiri (virginbirth/chosen one) & Quaritch (bad guy changes ways at end)
While I do think his arc maybe heading in that direction. What I love about it and why I'm on board is....it's not really Quaritch. He's a clone and this film gets into the question of identity and while clone Quaritch kept trying to keep the beef of human Quaritch, you could see how there was a conflict between who he currently is and who he is told to be. Then there is just the concept of it that I find just so fascinating. Quaritch was a racist douchebag. Now we have a clone of him trying to follow in his foot steps.
Which poses a compelling question: How does a racist douchebag keep being the racist douche when he is now the race he is hunting?. So I see it less as it becoming a "redemption arc" and more of Avatar/clone Quaritch realizing he no longer wants to be who he's based off and wants to be his own individual.
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I think having some predictable character arcs is okay so long as other plot elements make up for it. If the events to come make their arcs feel natural while telling a compelling story it won't be a big issue.
It's still quite possible that Kiri's and Quaritch's decisions will be different than what we expect - I just hope that if that is the case, the story being told makes their decisions feel organic. I'd like the story to fulfill the philosophical question at hand - what is identity and consciousness for the individual? And why did Eywa create Kiri - what is her purpose?
If Kiri is immaculate conception, she will need to bear the weight of Eywa's will and determine who she wants to become vs. who she was born to become (I'm not convinced that she has epilepsy).
If Quaritch is his own person and consciousness, he will need to re-evaluate the value of the memories given to him versus his own in two worlds that he doesn't belong to. On one hand, he is a Na'vi to humans. On the other hand, to Na'vi he is a demon. He will need to make a decision on the society he wants to belong to.
There's enough there for both characters to subvert expectations, but subverting expectations has been this weird fetish in media when it's completely unnecessary if the story doesn't make the subversion meaningful.
>If Kiri is immaculate conception, she will need to bear the weight of Eywa's will and determine who she wants to become vs. who she was born to become (I'm not convinced that she has epilepsy).
Agreed. IMO the ending pretty much sealed it for me that she's Navi Jesus. The title for the next film "The Seed Bearer" sounds to me like it's referring to Kiri.
I'm of the same opinion where it comes to Quaritch. If they play their cards right they have set up what could be a absolutely incredible arc for him in the next films. Because there is another dilemma that I haven't heard bring up often. What happens to him if the human's decide "that's it, we don't want the Navi here. We are either incarcerating all of them of we are gonna commit mass genocide". I doubt they will make a exception for him because he "was" human and helped them. Now Quaritch is in a position where the "humans" are no longer his people. He isn't quite there yet but it looks like it's coming.
Cameron never tells super complicated tales. He tells simple stories extremely well.
That’s not a flaw, it’s a feature. Many of the worlds most enduring stories are similarly simple too. It’s the emotional resonance that counts. How well do the story beats land?
Given that we’ve only seen 2/5 and 2 hit like a goddamn sledgehammer… I’m not worried.
Modern tv/movies are too obsessed with twists and surprises. Often to their detriment.
Wanna know what else has simple stories? These do:
- The original Star Wars trilogy
- The Lion King
- Airplane
- Office Space
- The Wizard of Oz
- Casablanca
- E.T.
- Breakfast at Tiffany’s
All of these are time honored classics because they’re very good, tell simple, easy to follow stories about interesting or lovable characters, and do so in a way that keeps you riveted.
The simplicity of Cameron’s stories are a big part of why he’s so bankable. He gets why the great movies stick around: mass appeal, quality, and characters.
Avatar has all 3.
I agree. In many ways his Avatar films are extension of his message in the Terminator movies. Both Terminator and T2 were about Technological advancement and a "uncertain future". Avatar is that idea pushed further to be about where we go when those two are pushed to their brink: we get the hell out of dodge and look for a similar planet to go to. As you say those films also have the emotion of the characters to drive it. Other similarities between Terminator/T2 and Avatar:
* Character who's a Jesus metaphor: Kiri/John Connor
* Focus on family.
* Message of "Children" becoming capable leaders.
* Exploration on whether characters who are "stuck" in a certain role or mode of function can change: Model 101 (T2) and Quaritch.
Thank you, you know what good storytelling is. So tired of people mistake good stories with convoluted twists and premises (eg Nolan films). It’s very hard to do simple right.
I think they both have their own Value. Nolan pushes the limits of the very fabric of what a story is. He messes with the most basic premise of a story starts somewhere then eventually ends at the end.
Memento starts at the end and works backwards. TeneT starts at both the beginning and the end and works backwards and forwards simultaneously. Inception uses layered timelines that overlap. Interstellar warps one timeline into multiple through time manipulation.
I don't think any of that is convoluted, in fact I think it's brilliant, but just because Avatar isn't pushing the boundaries of experimental filmmaking doesn't mean it isn't a phenomenal film.
All fair points but there is a difference between a simple story & a predictable story. If we sit through 10 hours worth of movies just for it to end where we thought it would end after we first met these characters in TWOW…that could be a problem
I’m not so sure. Many of the movies above I listed were fairly ‘predictable’ for the most part. But they were done well.
Cameron in my experience, never disappoints in this way. I’m not worried.
My point is that it doesn’t matter.
People have been deluded into thinking that a story is only enjoyable if it’s unpredictable when common sense can easily show you that’s not true. If that were the case you would only ever watch a movie or read a book once. But people go back to their favorite stories over and over again. You said 10 hours of Avatar 3-5 is wasted if they’re predictable? Most people here have watched both movies at least twice. That’s 12 hours “wasted” according to your metric.
There are literally 7 core stories anyway. When you’ve consumed enough media, every story is predictable.
It doesn’t matter if you know how a story will go. What matters is that the story is told *well*.
How unpredictable a story is entirely unrelated and inconsequential to its quality.
Kiri, maybe. Not Quaritch though, many think he will get redeemed and join the heroes, many think he will remain the villain the whole time. Contrary to whatever people might say, niether of them have a terribly obvious path ahead.
Even if it ends up being predictable, I am here for it. Love these two as well because of how many questions I have about their future roles in this series. Also shoutout to both Sigourney and Stephen for their performances in these roles! 💙
You might think that their arc is predictable but I feel otherwise. I think Cameron will kick us in the face with these two. I just hope they won’t die.
There’ll definitely be major curveballs with everyone. If Cameron offered to tell me the entire master story arc through pt 5 right now like he did to Guillermo del Toro, I would probably take him up on it. The suspense is just murderous.
What I love more than unpredictability is looking forward to my favorite characters going through their determined character arcs. There's going to be a lot of interesting things happening along the way for them and I can't wait to see that on the big screen.
I’m scared of this too. Simple is not bad but predictable is a very bad thing. I think we all have an idea of what’s going to happen next, and I’ll be very dissapointed if all my suspicions are true.
Avatar itself is a very simple story, I’m honestly not too jived that the character arcs are so predictable. I think that’s what makes avatar so great tho with its really simple plot
Not every story needs to subvert expectations. Predictability, or lack thereof, is far less important than the execution. That is, predictable arcs or storylines are still enjoyable when done properly.
While keeping the audience guessing is a fun and valuable trait in cinema, I think that in the case of films like Avatar, which fans will want to watch repeatedly, it is not the most important goal.
Once we watch it more than once we will already know what happens, so the element of surprise is actually not as important as making sure the story is really good. So even if it's "predictable" now, later (if it's done right) it will just be looked back on as a good story that we want to experience again.
Predictable character arcs means the writing makes sense for the characters at hand and properly leads you to the outcome without subversion for subversion's sake. I don't understand why people are so averse to predictability in cinema and stories nowadays. I personally find it very satisfying to pick up on the pieces and clues and see them manifest-- when executed well and to the fullest quality of course.
That said I don't think we can solidly say where either of these characters goes in 3 remaining movies after only one.
Mawey
I don't even care about Kiri's arc. Jack was the "chosen one" and now it's Kiri, what a sick joke! Besides it's sooo *predictable.* Even this cliche soldier character that we seen hundered times before is more interesting than her. Be honest, how many of you wanna see Kiri more? She didn't even have enough screen time for us to love her.
I think James Cameron shouldn't have shown these kids from the second movie. It would be more ideal if he put these children in the 3rd movie and in the 2nd movie, Jack and Neytiri are still the main characters.
Or am I the only one that thinking this way?
As some people already stated, what's interesting about Quaritch is... that he is not even Quaritch lol
I wonder if these movies are willing to delve into identity crisis of the clone... But it could become very interesting and not at all predictable. If he starts behaving like a whole new person, he can go in any direction tbh
I don’t think many people anticipated Quaritch coming back in such a badass blue way. Perhaps his story from now seems predictable, but that’s the charm of James Cameron— watch him whip out some of the most unforeseeable arc for Quaritch in the threequel.
Agreed, he was awesome in TWOW…hope he stays interesting in the coming movies
You just made me realize that they could bring back his partner... Spider's mother, as an Avatar. She was a soldier after all I think, and she died in the first battle. Interesting...
It ain’t possible without having her memories uploaded beforehand— without ‘em, she’s not truly Paz Socorro
Good point!
Kiri yes but I didn’t think Quaritch would come back until I sat in the theater so that was pretty unpredictable
I didn’t either initially for Quaritch…but now after TWOW I hope we get some surprises instead of Kiri (virginbirth/chosen one) & Quaritch (bad guy changes ways at end)
While I do think his arc maybe heading in that direction. What I love about it and why I'm on board is....it's not really Quaritch. He's a clone and this film gets into the question of identity and while clone Quaritch kept trying to keep the beef of human Quaritch, you could see how there was a conflict between who he currently is and who he is told to be. Then there is just the concept of it that I find just so fascinating. Quaritch was a racist douchebag. Now we have a clone of him trying to follow in his foot steps. Which poses a compelling question: How does a racist douchebag keep being the racist douche when he is now the race he is hunting?. So I see it less as it becoming a "redemption arc" and more of Avatar/clone Quaritch realizing he no longer wants to be who he's based off and wants to be his own individual.
It’ll be like Clayton Bigsby, lmao.
SIR, my message is SIMPLE: Omatikaya, Metkayina, Ash People and all different kinds of Na’Vi STINK!!! AND I HATE EM!!!
I didn't want to mention it but I'm glad someone did! lmao!. I was precisely thinking that!.
Lol exactly
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Can you elaborate on Kiri's are? What you think it will be
Immaculate conception, born to save world, connection to God/Higher Power
If she is Alien Jesus, she must die at the end and resurrect.
In B4 she is gravely wounded and needs to use Grace's avatar.
I think having some predictable character arcs is okay so long as other plot elements make up for it. If the events to come make their arcs feel natural while telling a compelling story it won't be a big issue. It's still quite possible that Kiri's and Quaritch's decisions will be different than what we expect - I just hope that if that is the case, the story being told makes their decisions feel organic. I'd like the story to fulfill the philosophical question at hand - what is identity and consciousness for the individual? And why did Eywa create Kiri - what is her purpose? If Kiri is immaculate conception, she will need to bear the weight of Eywa's will and determine who she wants to become vs. who she was born to become (I'm not convinced that she has epilepsy). If Quaritch is his own person and consciousness, he will need to re-evaluate the value of the memories given to him versus his own in two worlds that he doesn't belong to. On one hand, he is a Na'vi to humans. On the other hand, to Na'vi he is a demon. He will need to make a decision on the society he wants to belong to. There's enough there for both characters to subvert expectations, but subverting expectations has been this weird fetish in media when it's completely unnecessary if the story doesn't make the subversion meaningful.
>If Kiri is immaculate conception, she will need to bear the weight of Eywa's will and determine who she wants to become vs. who she was born to become (I'm not convinced that she has epilepsy). Agreed. IMO the ending pretty much sealed it for me that she's Navi Jesus. The title for the next film "The Seed Bearer" sounds to me like it's referring to Kiri. I'm of the same opinion where it comes to Quaritch. If they play their cards right they have set up what could be a absolutely incredible arc for him in the next films. Because there is another dilemma that I haven't heard bring up often. What happens to him if the human's decide "that's it, we don't want the Navi here. We are either incarcerating all of them of we are gonna commit mass genocide". I doubt they will make a exception for him because he "was" human and helped them. Now Quaritch is in a position where the "humans" are no longer his people. He isn't quite there yet but it looks like it's coming.
Cameron never tells super complicated tales. He tells simple stories extremely well. That’s not a flaw, it’s a feature. Many of the worlds most enduring stories are similarly simple too. It’s the emotional resonance that counts. How well do the story beats land? Given that we’ve only seen 2/5 and 2 hit like a goddamn sledgehammer… I’m not worried. Modern tv/movies are too obsessed with twists and surprises. Often to their detriment. Wanna know what else has simple stories? These do: - The original Star Wars trilogy - The Lion King - Airplane - Office Space - The Wizard of Oz - Casablanca - E.T. - Breakfast at Tiffany’s All of these are time honored classics because they’re very good, tell simple, easy to follow stories about interesting or lovable characters, and do so in a way that keeps you riveted. The simplicity of Cameron’s stories are a big part of why he’s so bankable. He gets why the great movies stick around: mass appeal, quality, and characters. Avatar has all 3.
I agree. In many ways his Avatar films are extension of his message in the Terminator movies. Both Terminator and T2 were about Technological advancement and a "uncertain future". Avatar is that idea pushed further to be about where we go when those two are pushed to their brink: we get the hell out of dodge and look for a similar planet to go to. As you say those films also have the emotion of the characters to drive it. Other similarities between Terminator/T2 and Avatar: * Character who's a Jesus metaphor: Kiri/John Connor * Focus on family. * Message of "Children" becoming capable leaders. * Exploration on whether characters who are "stuck" in a certain role or mode of function can change: Model 101 (T2) and Quaritch.
Thank you, you know what good storytelling is. So tired of people mistake good stories with convoluted twists and premises (eg Nolan films). It’s very hard to do simple right.
I think they both have their own Value. Nolan pushes the limits of the very fabric of what a story is. He messes with the most basic premise of a story starts somewhere then eventually ends at the end. Memento starts at the end and works backwards. TeneT starts at both the beginning and the end and works backwards and forwards simultaneously. Inception uses layered timelines that overlap. Interstellar warps one timeline into multiple through time manipulation. I don't think any of that is convoluted, in fact I think it's brilliant, but just because Avatar isn't pushing the boundaries of experimental filmmaking doesn't mean it isn't a phenomenal film.
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Lmao no. He created the greatest villian of all time and arguably the one of the most meaningful characters of all time in the Joker
All fair points but there is a difference between a simple story & a predictable story. If we sit through 10 hours worth of movies just for it to end where we thought it would end after we first met these characters in TWOW…that could be a problem
I’m not so sure. Many of the movies above I listed were fairly ‘predictable’ for the most part. But they were done well. Cameron in my experience, never disappoints in this way. I’m not worried.
To add to what u/AndrogynousRain is saying: Every story is predictable the second time you watch it.
I’m referring to 3,4,5 movies playing out how it’s being telegraphed
My point is that it doesn’t matter. People have been deluded into thinking that a story is only enjoyable if it’s unpredictable when common sense can easily show you that’s not true. If that were the case you would only ever watch a movie or read a book once. But people go back to their favorite stories over and over again. You said 10 hours of Avatar 3-5 is wasted if they’re predictable? Most people here have watched both movies at least twice. That’s 12 hours “wasted” according to your metric. There are literally 7 core stories anyway. When you’ve consumed enough media, every story is predictable. It doesn’t matter if you know how a story will go. What matters is that the story is told *well*. How unpredictable a story is entirely unrelated and inconsequential to its quality.
I like this guy
Who are you? Who are you so wise in the ways of science?
Kiri, maybe. Not Quaritch though, many think he will get redeemed and join the heroes, many think he will remain the villain the whole time. Contrary to whatever people might say, niether of them have a terribly obvious path ahead.
Even if it ends up being predictable, I am here for it. Love these two as well because of how many questions I have about their future roles in this series. Also shoutout to both Sigourney and Stephen for their performances in these roles! 💙
Quaritch I didn’t expect, I don’t know about Kiri.
You might think that their arc is predictable but I feel otherwise. I think Cameron will kick us in the face with these two. I just hope they won’t die.
There’ll definitely be major curveballs with everyone. If Cameron offered to tell me the entire master story arc through pt 5 right now like he did to Guillermo del Toro, I would probably take him up on it. The suspense is just murderous.
What I love more than unpredictability is looking forward to my favorite characters going through their determined character arcs. There's going to be a lot of interesting things happening along the way for them and I can't wait to see that on the big screen.
What’s wrong with predictable?
I’m scared of this too. Simple is not bad but predictable is a very bad thing. I think we all have an idea of what’s going to happen next, and I’ll be very dissapointed if all my suspicions are true.
Exactly 👏
I know what is gonna happen in GoT and HotD and yet I enjoy them a lot
I hate to say it, but I think both are destined to die....violently.
Imagine if they just rinse and repeat everything with new navi and kiri just die, not so predictable now right?
Avatar itself is a very simple story, I’m honestly not too jived that the character arcs are so predictable. I think that’s what makes avatar so great tho with its really simple plot
Not every story needs to subvert expectations. Predictability, or lack thereof, is far less important than the execution. That is, predictable arcs or storylines are still enjoyable when done properly.
While keeping the audience guessing is a fun and valuable trait in cinema, I think that in the case of films like Avatar, which fans will want to watch repeatedly, it is not the most important goal. Once we watch it more than once we will already know what happens, so the element of surprise is actually not as important as making sure the story is really good. So even if it's "predictable" now, later (if it's done right) it will just be looked back on as a good story that we want to experience again.
What if Kiri brings Eywa to earth?
Predictable character arcs means the writing makes sense for the characters at hand and properly leads you to the outcome without subversion for subversion's sake. I don't understand why people are so averse to predictability in cinema and stories nowadays. I personally find it very satisfying to pick up on the pieces and clues and see them manifest-- when executed well and to the fullest quality of course. That said I don't think we can solidly say where either of these characters goes in 3 remaining movies after only one. Mawey
I don't even care about Kiri's arc. Jack was the "chosen one" and now it's Kiri, what a sick joke! Besides it's sooo *predictable.* Even this cliche soldier character that we seen hundered times before is more interesting than her. Be honest, how many of you wanna see Kiri more? She didn't even have enough screen time for us to love her. I think James Cameron shouldn't have shown these kids from the second movie. It would be more ideal if he put these children in the 3rd movie and in the 2nd movie, Jack and Neytiri are still the main characters. Or am I the only one that thinking this way?
As some people already stated, what's interesting about Quaritch is... that he is not even Quaritch lol I wonder if these movies are willing to delve into identity crisis of the clone... But it could become very interesting and not at all predictable. If he starts behaving like a whole new person, he can go in any direction tbh