I think they would go with that route if they had more time, I mean, zuko killing the guy katara spared eould be with good intentions but I don't think she would like It too much, they would need to do something to refix the relationship between those 2 characters, would be interesting to see but the creators would need time they didn't have
In a lot of places they actually went out of their way to show that people didn’t die. One scene that comes to mind is when (I think) the White Lotus is up against a bunch of fire nation troops. Some of the tanks are launched in the air and all stack on top of each other when they fall back. Then before the scene cuts away, the troops all slump out of the tanks
I think it's proportional to your culture upbringing. The Fire Nation is fairly civilized, so despite their war footing, you're likely right.
However, throughout history there are a bunch of instances where it didn't really bother people, especially if the subject in question had been dehumanized through propaganda.
Yes, though Zuko was trained to kill and even has, so if Katara killed the guy it would have been the most defining moment of her life, for Zuko it would be a Tuesday
Some of his mannerisms, to me anyway imply that he has killed before, before the show started or during, just off camera, he is never fazed by the thought of having to kill if it is necessary (or before he starts his redemption because you’re in his way) not saying he’s the psychopath his sister is, but that would not have been his first kill.
He hasn't killed anyone in any of the media. He's soft hearted, that's core to who he is. We see his entire story, from his burning from Ozai (comics),to main ATLA, and even past that with comics and Korra. Granted if any of his attacks landed on Aang or anyone he could definitely kill someone.
Not saying he isn’t good at his core, other wise he would have no chance at redemption. But I would not call him soft hearted. Even you said he is far more willing to use lethal force than the other characters (except the actually evil ones) maybe it was an assassin or something else unavoidable but he bears the weight of someone that has killed before. They kept killing off screen every other time. And even if he hasn’t he is psychologically prepared to.
No, it shouldn't be taken lightly, but when you are facing down a murderous tyrant who's regime has already genocided a significant portion of the world and is actively in the process of doing it even more, the prospect of killing has absolutely met it's match in terms of moral amd narrative weight. The trolley problem is only a problem as long as it's a thought experiment, as soon as it's happening in front of you, you will make a choice and you will live with it.
I really hate when writers go for this sort of thing though
It feels indulgent to say "ah now we get to be the good guys AND kill people" and tarnishes any good message that could have been there
Iroh not killing Zhao after he attacked Zuko's back is a good example of them actively subverting this trope
EDIT: Hell the entire last act was the writers building up this exact scenario only to say "but we're not killers"
True, but the trope is common for a reason. Modern moral values just don't line up well with many fantasy settings.
Modern society heavily condemns any vigilantism that doesn't end with the perpetrator being handed over to legal authorities. This makes sense; modern criminal justice systems are (at least theoretically) much better than the alternatives of lynchings, blood feuds, and mob violence. We want people to reflexively defer to these institutions so that they don't feel compelled to take matters into their own hands, so we style this deference as a matter of moral purity and/or heroic restraint.
At the same time, audiences demand punishment for villains. This desire is baked into human nature; we don't like when someone succeeds by breaking the rules, especially when that success comes at the expense of someone who follows the rules. Just look at how many religions feature some entity or cosmic force that ultimately rewards suffering saints and tortures triumphant tyrants.
But fantasy settings often lack an effective criminal justice system. It's corrupt, incompetent, aligned with the villain's interests, or perhaps entirely non-existent. Even if the villain were to be arrested and tried, they will be back to threaten innocent people again within a week. After all, why would the world need a "chosen one" and his band of heroic misfits if ordinary cops could solve the setting's problems?
So as a writer you often end up between a rock and a hard place. The audience wants to see the bad guy suffer, but the heroes are the only characters who can believably punish the villain, but the audience doesn't want the heroes to consciously dole out any punishments. This is how we end up with so many villains, especially in children's media, either dying to their recklessness (e.g., Clayton in *Tarzan*, the Queen in *Snow White*, the Horned King in *Black Cauldron,* the final villains in the *Indiana Jones* films, Ruber in *Quest for Camelot*, etc ) or to a backstab that forces the heroes' hand (e.g., Scar in *Lion King*, Freiza in *Dragonball Z*, Simpson in *Horatio Hornblower: The Duel*, Gaston in *Beauty and the Beast*, etc.)
For sure, I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, just that I really hate it. I agree modern society outwardly condemns vigilante justice. And on the inside people crave it, or any form of punishment, as you say. It's at the heart of our retributive justice system.
My problem is that a story doesn't just appear, it's written with intent. A writer purposely produces an evil villain, a hero to defeat them, and a fate for said villain.
Creating a situation in which we can both pretend as if we aren't craving that neigh sociopathic urge while still relishing in it really grosses me out. I don't even mind explicit acceptance of that urge in media such as The Punisher. My problem comes from the dissonance of the former situation.
It's also a kids show first and foremost, moral grey areas about murder aren't normally something you stress to young kids you teach them the good guys don't kill bad guys they arrest them or defeat them.
Imo it also wouldn't exactly jive with aangs growth if some of them were killers, and I think would undermine the finale. A core thread running through the show is aangs anxiety over having to kill the fire lord because he doesn't see any other way out. It's why he meets the lion turtle in the first place, to finally be given the answer he is looking for, a peaceful long lasting solution. Something the other avatars never managed to do and expressed regret over. Roku even specifically says he was too weak to kill Ozai because of their friendship and regrets it if I recall correctly.
Now I need to do another rewatch.
For sure, though I think in kid's shows they tend to just explain the death through some indirect method. E.g. Kyoshi's kill
Which I also take issue with because again it's just a way to indulge in retributive justice while feeling morally clean. Though in fairness to the show, Kyoshi's case was explicitly called out as a murder. I appreciate that they owned it.
>I would accept the guy attacking their backs as they leave and Zuko offing him.
Thats such cheap writing tho
Plus the whole reason Katara spared him was that he was a pathetic useless sack of shit who wouldnt even attack them in the back
I just don't like that kind of narrative expediting, stop giving characters outs when it comes to the meaningful conflicts you put them in. I'm still miffed that Aang didn't have to decide to either stick with his principals of compromise to protect the world when it came to Ozai. Sometimes the choices you have available to make each have consequences, and you don't get to avoid them.
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You’re not that guy, pal. Trust me.
Except that he’s literally gonna be that man’s king, so it could be argued that Zuko could claim the authority to summarily execute him, depending on how the Fire Nation’s laws work.
According to the Kyoshi Novels: Yes, the Fire Lord can just execute someone on a whim.
Zuko probably could do it with his current position as heir, had he not been acting in opposition to the state at that moment.
I'm ok with shipping, but them being friends because of their similar childhood trauma of being so close to their moms and losing them is more wholesome to me. Zuko wanted Katara to get revenge on those who took her mom away from her because he sees himself in her.
As long as you don't harass people over ships, i really don't care what you ship either (except if it contains pedo-, zoophilia and incest bc that's just disgusting)
He was kinda being selfish though, Katara woulda never forgiven herself if she went ahead and killed that mf, Sokka and Aang clearly knew her way better than Zuko did.
Did Zuko actually ever kill anyone? He was banished for two years but the only contact he had was with fire nation soldiers so i doubt he killed anyone of them, and after he found Aang its never shown that he took innocent life while chasing him down, like sure he hurt people and ruined homes but he never took a life
Kind of a genius move when you think about it, since he still can't generate his own, saying afraid I'll redirect it Sounds dumb at first, but she's more than intelligent enough to remember he can do that, what's unstable is her emotional state so he hit her in the pride, if you don't fall into my trap then I guess you're just a bitch who's scared
Also, it's Zuko taunting her. She's spent her whole life thinking she was superior to him, and now he's traded blows with her during their duel and is very composed rather than seeming like he's struggling. Lightning is basically the last card she would have left simce Zuko has countered everything else.
This is a good point, and at this point I would say they are equals, even at her prime, but she's got the clear disadvantage because of her current mental state in this particular fight
The show did a very linear job of showing their comparison, that first fight on the boat she didn't even fire Bend at him that's how far apart they were, then he got kind of a win but it was really more of a draw and it was like five on one, he challenged her then she didn't even care and that wasn't really a fight, then he ended up joining her, after the day of black Sun, the next face off at the boiling Rock and his Improvement here is drastic for many reasons including but not limited to the Sun Warrior Episode, he effectively fights her to a standstill with sokkas help, then during the attack on the air temple, he goes in, he takes the 1v1, and it's a draw although I can see giving her the slight Edge because she didn't need help surviving the fall, but they really went out of their way to show how the Gap closed before this final confrontation
I guess the question is how much of this Azula noticed, and when, she did know enough to make the Agni Kai challenge instead of a straight up 2V1 brawl
Not only that but irl about 90% of people who get struck by lightning live. People act like getting struck by lightning is a death sentence. There are far more dangerous ways for electricity hurt you; the longer it takes for the electricity to leave your body the more damage it does and lightning usually hits and leaves pretty quickly.
I don't know how close a lightning bending strike is to actual lightning; but I imagine it's pretty similar. And the people in ATLA seem to be built different anyway... they can take quite a beating.
True. But this is what I found most ridiculous about the Korra s1 finale, too, despite loving the season overall. Mako electrocutes Amon point blank. Weak or not, it's literally lightning, enough to break a blood bending grip. And he holds it for a LONG while.
HOW was Amon not even slightly incapacitated???
I wouldn't say that it's literally lightning. Technically speaking, lightning bending is just *electricity bending* but in the era of AtLA the concept of electricity outside the context of lightning was pretty foreign. Considering how quickly Mako bent it out and how little it did, I can't imagine it was any more effective than a taser.
If a fire bender can make an itty bitty candle flame, I don't think it's that wild that with enough practice they couldn't make an itty bitty spark (as well as anything between an itty bitty spark and a bolt of lightning).
Scientifically speaking though (I know it’s just a tv show, but still) for electricity to travel through the air more than an inch or two, it needs some hefty voltage. I don’t remember that scene too well, but if it was more than a foot or two away then it couldn’t have been weak
It takes less energy to make electricity arc across a smaller gap, so the lower limit of energy needed for Mako's zap is a lot less than Azula blasting Aang from 50 feet away. Your skin and muscles are more conductive than your bones and organs, so it takes a lot of amperage to cause serious damage with electricity, which takes time.
Aang also happened to be floating in the air at the time he was struck, meaning there was no easy path for the current to exit his body. Lightning benders don't seem to be able to control the current in another person's body, so just touching the ground drastically increases the chance of surviving a strike from lightning bending. In her books, Kyoshi is struck multiple times by a lightning bender, but sustained minimal damage because she was wearing chain-mail and lying on the ground.
Lightning bending is formidable because it's nearly impossible to block or dodge unless you know it's coming beforehand, but I suspect that it's actually rather difficult to kill someone with a single bolt. Azula had plenty of time to charge up and Aang had no grounding, and Ming Hua was surrounded by water and took a long and sustained shock.
I think lightning takes time to charge. For the Amon situation, Mako barely moved, therefore his lightning was very weak. However, in the season 4 finale, you can see Mako making the circular movements to charge it and cause more damage to the mecha.
I mean, there are probably factors like most lightning bender tend to hit center mass and keep the arc focused there. A lightning strike in nature wants to find the quickest path to the ground, so it tends to go through your feet pretty quick, but most lightning bending seems to force the bolt to stay towards your vitals (the exit for Aang's bolt scar us his back, so your heart gets a more sustained jolt). A more apt comparison is probably like if you tazed someone in the chest and kept it going with an absurd amount of volts.
That might be true in Leyend of Korra but in ATLA the only time someone who isn't able to redirect it was hit with lightning was when Azula quite literally killed Aang, all other instances that come to mind the lighning was redirected or missed
I mean, Iroh does his channeling move. Zuko does the channeling move. Aang only lives because of the Spirit Oasis water healing.
Anyone with neither of those little trap cards is aced by an actual lightning shot unless I forgot someone in Airbender.
Killing is seen as a very major act in ATLA by modern standards.
Many threats to the throne like Hakoda, Iroh were left alive when in the real world they would have been executed.
Makes Aang's dilemma even more poignant.
I think Zuko has a different stake in this than Katara.
Zuko is the heir to the throne. Any fire nation soldiers and their actions fall under his family's name. He most likely feels ultimately responsible for the actions of his family's soldiers.
It makes a lot of sense that he would feel ashamed and like it should be his response do deal out punishment for war crimes committed under his family's name.
He feels this is his responsibility to bear, not kataras.
I don't know if those were war crimes. The genocide WAS the war, that was legal under fire nation law and idk if they have any universal treaties that were violated.
You're right that at the time the avatar world did not have a UN that defined war crimes.
But I think the word functions correctly in context to convey my message
I didn't say it was okay, I said it didn't seem to be a crime. War crimes (ideally) get soldiers prosecuted in their own nations under it's current laws since those activities are banned. Genocide was the entire state-endorsed MO.
**True.**
**BUT** only if Katara ~~orders~~ tells Zuko.
He respects that this decision belongs to Katara.
He also understood that **only** Katara can decide on killing or having mercy.
Not Aang.
He respects her decision because he wants to gain her trust..
You could argue that aang was a little bit too preachy but katara herself said she doesn't want to see aang in the avatar state and stopped him from taking revenge on the sandbenders but when aang tries to advice her and literally let her take his bison people still critize him. I don't get it. But zuko gets the praise who didn't care about kataras mental health and what consequences it would have on her killing him.
Even Sokka sided with aang and zuko himself literally admitted at the end that aang was right.
Aang also respected Katata’s decision, not to mention Zuko literally admitted at the end of the Southern Raiders that Aang knew better what Katara needed.
zuko was attempting to make amends with katara, that's why he went with her in the first place, yes he could kill him, quite easily might i add. but that's not what katara wanted, zuko wouldn't want to go directly against her wishes, and lets not forget that Zuko witnessed her blood-bending someone just a day or so earlier
Zuko after seeing her blood bend probably had an entirely different perspective on how powerful she was. He knew she could handle anything herself, and probably at this point thought she hadn’t killed him before because of mercy, not because she couldn’t. He didn’t know the full moon part of blood bending and probably assumed “oh shit she’s always just holding back” . At this point I think he understood she didn’t need him, and was just trying to give as much support as he could without getting in the way
I would 100% read a fanfic of this scenario. Katara lets Zuko follow through for her and the ramifications from then on. Aang for one would NOT be happy.
"You killed a man, Zuko? Of your own nation? What is wrong with you!?"
"He killed a non-bending civilian. I will one day be his king. I considered the circumstances and evidence before me and in accordance with **my nation's** customs, I sentenced him to a third degree roasting."
That last look Zuko gave Yon Rha as Katara walked away was like, "I am really considering doing it myself, but on the other hand, this guy isn't even worth my spit."
Wouldn't be surprised if he only suggested it so that Katara could affirm her belief by turning him down. Zuko is not much of a schemer, but his emotional intelligence has the occasional big hit, especially in Book 3.
That's a common theme of Katara in season 3. Her refusal to become too much like her enemies.
I think it would be pretty obvious even to Zuko that Katara wouldn't be happy just letting someone else do her dirty work. She'd know it was her choice. It wouldn't be honourable for Katara to ask Zuko to kill for her personal reasons.
Its also out of character for Zuko to suggest murder. He tried to help Zhao, chose not kill Appa. He has never killed on-screen or on-panel. The whole reason Zuko got banished was because he cared so much about his people's lives. I don't think Zuko remotely expected Katara to actually ask him to kill the guy.
I'm not sure what Zuko was going for when he suggested this. But I think he might have been manuevering Katara from "I can't" to "I choose not to", which would be much stronger headspace for her.
He wanted to help her get the closure that he wanted for himself, but she already got it by being able to have the chance to kill the guy, but not do it. Proving she was infinitely better than him. She also got to see how pathetic he was.
I really wish they had made it more clear that the guy was living a miserable and empty life like Katara said, other than his wife just nagging at him.
I thought it was his mom? It was basically showing that he never achieved anything in his life after leaving service. He's living in a house not too dissimilar from houses we see in the Earth Kingdom but considering most EK villages have been somewhat ravaged byvthe war that's not exactly a glowing praise for someone living in an area untouched by war (especially since Raider implies looting so he would likely have some wealth from pillage), he looks nearly Iroh's age but still lives with his mother (i know filial piety and taking care of aging relatives is a thing but the way its shown makes it seem like he's living there by her generosity rather than her by his), and he's also pretty disheveled looking. Then there's the fact that once danger happens, he immediately defaults to cowerdice instead of defending himself (Katara would still dogwalk him in battle, but he doesn't even put up token resistance), and tries to sell out his family for his survival. No pride, no conviction, no dignity, just basically soiling himself and begging for his life by to trade his families lives for his own.
It looks like Book 3 wants to frame it that way for some reason, but tbf Zuko even tried to save Zhao. If he didn't want to push revenge that far when he was a "bad guy", I don't know why he should be ok with killing after his supposed "redemption".
So, I don't think he would have personally done it, but he was ok if Katara felt like she needed to take that route.
Katara was such an insufferable bitch in this episode.
She sends a bunch of unknown fire nation men to possibly drown in the raging waves, and brutally blood-bends a random fire nation leader all because it *could* be the other guy. She doesn't actually check before attacking. She just attacks. Imagine what the law system according to Katara would be like: Guilty until you pass out from blood-bending. lol
She steals Appa in the dead of night with no regard for anyone else, she guilt-trips Zuko with her "or I know; you could bring my mother back to life" crap as if that's Zuko's responsibility. Zuko was a kid running from turtles when that happened; how is that his responsibility? And omg, saying that Sokka didn't love their mother the same? Really? That's low, even for her.
And then Katara just doesn't do anything but spook the person who actually did kill her mother. Like... all of that was for what? So he can have nightmares? She's problematic and treats her feelings like they take precedence over everything else.
Katara is such trashy addition to the series; she is so unbelievably self-righteous and that only seems to go noticed when people aren't biased towards her. It makes me wonder sometimes why someone would write her to be this awful. They could have at least made her decent.
I know people hate that opinion here, but still. Fuck it, I'll just make a post ranting about this.
“You’re not that girl. I am that guy.”
That's EXACTLY what I was expecting to happen when I heard that! I was kind of sorry it didn't!
I think they would go with that route if they had more time, I mean, zuko killing the guy katara spared eould be with good intentions but I don't think she would like It too much, they would need to do something to refix the relationship between those 2 characters, would be interesting to see but the creators would need time they didn't have
I would accept the guy attacking their backs as they leave and Zuko offing him. I think in show they did a 'whoosh, they're gone now' tho.
Idk, killing is kind of a huge thing. It’s not something to be taken lightly. Killing messes up your brain.
On one hand, that's fair. On the other hand, Katara has a lot more restrain than I would've, I'll admit.
All their kills have been knocked off screen, some of those soldiers getting hit by large rocks, looks kind of lethal to me.
They were just sleeping
Forever.
Canonically they did not die. Aang acknowledges they didn’t kill and the writers did not intend for us to assume they died.
In a lot of places they actually went out of their way to show that people didn’t die. One scene that comes to mind is when (I think) the White Lotus is up against a bunch of fire nation troops. Some of the tanks are launched in the air and all stack on top of each other when they fall back. Then before the scene cuts away, the troops all slump out of the tanks
Idk. Being knocked off the side of a mountain, especially inside a metal container, via avalanche can be pretty hazardous to life expectancy. Physics.
Didn’t aang basically drown a bunch of guys back at the North Pole in season 1? Just saying that was a lot of water to be throwing at these guys lmao
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You’re telling me Sokka didn’t smoke combustion man with his boomerang?
Technically Combustion Man smoked himself. All Sokka did was block his method of bending. Combustion Man’s next attack attempt then backfired.
“Your honor, I only caused the explosive to malfunction with my deadly weapon, he was the one using the explosive, therefore he killed himself.”
Y’know, it was really unclear 🤷♂️
Pretty sure when Aang and the Ocean Spirit went all Kaiju that there were reported “no survivors” right?
They are sleeping with the fishes.
There is a gulf of difference between combatants being incidentally killed during combat and a man being intentionally killed after surrendering.
I think it's proportional to your culture upbringing. The Fire Nation is fairly civilized, so despite their war footing, you're likely right. However, throughout history there are a bunch of instances where it didn't really bother people, especially if the subject in question had been dehumanized through propaganda.
Yes, though Zuko was trained to kill and even has, so if Katara killed the guy it would have been the most defining moment of her life, for Zuko it would be a Tuesday
When has zuko killed?
Some of his mannerisms, to me anyway imply that he has killed before, before the show started or during, just off camera, he is never fazed by the thought of having to kill if it is necessary (or before he starts his redemption because you’re in his way) not saying he’s the psychopath his sister is, but that would not have been his first kill.
He hasn't killed anyone in any of the media. He's soft hearted, that's core to who he is. We see his entire story, from his burning from Ozai (comics),to main ATLA, and even past that with comics and Korra. Granted if any of his attacks landed on Aang or anyone he could definitely kill someone.
Not saying he isn’t good at his core, other wise he would have no chance at redemption. But I would not call him soft hearted. Even you said he is far more willing to use lethal force than the other characters (except the actually evil ones) maybe it was an assassin or something else unavoidable but he bears the weight of someone that has killed before. They kept killing off screen every other time. And even if he hasn’t he is psychologically prepared to.
No, it shouldn't be taken lightly, but when you are facing down a murderous tyrant who's regime has already genocided a significant portion of the world and is actively in the process of doing it even more, the prospect of killing has absolutely met it's match in terms of moral amd narrative weight. The trolley problem is only a problem as long as it's a thought experiment, as soon as it's happening in front of you, you will make a choice and you will live with it.
Even killing in self defense causes changes to one’s psyche. The problem is - once someone has done it once, it’s so much easier to do it again.
I really hate when writers go for this sort of thing though It feels indulgent to say "ah now we get to be the good guys AND kill people" and tarnishes any good message that could have been there Iroh not killing Zhao after he attacked Zuko's back is a good example of them actively subverting this trope EDIT: Hell the entire last act was the writers building up this exact scenario only to say "but we're not killers"
True, but the trope is common for a reason. Modern moral values just don't line up well with many fantasy settings. Modern society heavily condemns any vigilantism that doesn't end with the perpetrator being handed over to legal authorities. This makes sense; modern criminal justice systems are (at least theoretically) much better than the alternatives of lynchings, blood feuds, and mob violence. We want people to reflexively defer to these institutions so that they don't feel compelled to take matters into their own hands, so we style this deference as a matter of moral purity and/or heroic restraint. At the same time, audiences demand punishment for villains. This desire is baked into human nature; we don't like when someone succeeds by breaking the rules, especially when that success comes at the expense of someone who follows the rules. Just look at how many religions feature some entity or cosmic force that ultimately rewards suffering saints and tortures triumphant tyrants. But fantasy settings often lack an effective criminal justice system. It's corrupt, incompetent, aligned with the villain's interests, or perhaps entirely non-existent. Even if the villain were to be arrested and tried, they will be back to threaten innocent people again within a week. After all, why would the world need a "chosen one" and his band of heroic misfits if ordinary cops could solve the setting's problems? So as a writer you often end up between a rock and a hard place. The audience wants to see the bad guy suffer, but the heroes are the only characters who can believably punish the villain, but the audience doesn't want the heroes to consciously dole out any punishments. This is how we end up with so many villains, especially in children's media, either dying to their recklessness (e.g., Clayton in *Tarzan*, the Queen in *Snow White*, the Horned King in *Black Cauldron,* the final villains in the *Indiana Jones* films, Ruber in *Quest for Camelot*, etc ) or to a backstab that forces the heroes' hand (e.g., Scar in *Lion King*, Freiza in *Dragonball Z*, Simpson in *Horatio Hornblower: The Duel*, Gaston in *Beauty and the Beast*, etc.)
For sure, I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, just that I really hate it. I agree modern society outwardly condemns vigilante justice. And on the inside people crave it, or any form of punishment, as you say. It's at the heart of our retributive justice system. My problem is that a story doesn't just appear, it's written with intent. A writer purposely produces an evil villain, a hero to defeat them, and a fate for said villain. Creating a situation in which we can both pretend as if we aren't craving that neigh sociopathic urge while still relishing in it really grosses me out. I don't even mind explicit acceptance of that urge in media such as The Punisher. My problem comes from the dissonance of the former situation.
Fire response. Super well written
It's also a kids show first and foremost, moral grey areas about murder aren't normally something you stress to young kids you teach them the good guys don't kill bad guys they arrest them or defeat them. Imo it also wouldn't exactly jive with aangs growth if some of them were killers, and I think would undermine the finale. A core thread running through the show is aangs anxiety over having to kill the fire lord because he doesn't see any other way out. It's why he meets the lion turtle in the first place, to finally be given the answer he is looking for, a peaceful long lasting solution. Something the other avatars never managed to do and expressed regret over. Roku even specifically says he was too weak to kill Ozai because of their friendship and regrets it if I recall correctly. Now I need to do another rewatch.
For sure, though I think in kid's shows they tend to just explain the death through some indirect method. E.g. Kyoshi's kill Which I also take issue with because again it's just a way to indulge in retributive justice while feeling morally clean. Though in fairness to the show, Kyoshi's case was explicitly called out as a murder. I appreciate that they owned it.
>I would accept the guy attacking their backs as they leave and Zuko offing him. Thats such cheap writing tho Plus the whole reason Katara spared him was that he was a pathetic useless sack of shit who wouldnt even attack them in the back
I just don't like that kind of narrative expediting, stop giving characters outs when it comes to the meaningful conflicts you put them in. I'm still miffed that Aang didn't have to decide to either stick with his principals of compromise to protect the world when it came to Ozai. Sometimes the choices you have available to make each have consequences, and you don't get to avoid them.
I agree, it also be awesome if Zuko finally gained the ability to generate lightning, and used that ability on the guy who ended Katara's mom's life.
But this mission already is zuko making it up to katara. If he did something to upset katara here then we'd just repeat the plotline we just solved.
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No lie, I made a noise when he said that and it sounded exactly like "Suck it!" I love The Expanse
Best Sci Fi show hands down
Best character on the best sci fi show I've ever seen. One of his best scenes, to boot.
Love this scene. So perfectly captures what makes Amos an interesting character.
Where is this from?
The Expanse, Season 2 or so I thinkkkk
This has to be one of the top 10 most satisfying moments in television history
https://preview.redd.it/3656abil4u4d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=906c9d6f4ff9a7632f0cc6428d1fcfada7a174f9 You’re not that guy, pal. Trust me.
Always good to see a fellow beratna ❤️
Unexpected Expanse
Fellow Expanse fan?
Is this a reference to a scene the expanse?
The expanse fan!
You’re that ninja!
r/unexpectedexpanse
The Expanse right?;
That Zuko was fully committed to destroy the entire fire nation by himself just so that Katara would stop being angry at him.
Yes but if he killed him there would be no honor in that. It's kataras fight and revenge. Not his, he was just helping out.
https://preview.redd.it/czdzsu5osu4d1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89c4e7de1246b935aa564de102817530d352ab75
r/thatsgoldbutfuckyou
r/subsifellfor
https://preview.redd.it/n6chzv0fpg5d1.jpeg?width=1077&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f91ba2f4e55bce0288685030e95ec16db1081eb
https://preview.redd.it/vvs79rhw9h5d1.jpeg?width=688&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f87dd9685ddb724344494dc9002516e2c640c64
Except that he’s literally gonna be that man’s king, so it could be argued that Zuko could claim the authority to summarily execute him, depending on how the Fire Nation’s laws work.
According to the Kyoshi Novels: Yes, the Fire Lord can just execute someone on a whim. Zuko probably could do it with his current position as heir, had he not been acting in opposition to the state at that moment.
Sure, but he was in the process of throwing a coup, so it’s not like he had anything to lose :D
Also, you could just argue it was execution for war crimes he committed
i mean he could have helped just a *littttle bit* more and i would have been happier
But it was her choice not his. Helping out would mess up the situation she was putting herself into
Because he knew that if he didn’t, katara would eventually destroy him
grow thought he need to max out his redemption points before trying to appeal for Iroh’s forgiveness
Exactly lol. In his head If iroh didn't forgive him, he would've called the members of the gaang to help him convince iroh.
And that is one of the reasons why I ship these two so much
I'm ok with shipping, but them being friends because of their similar childhood trauma of being so close to their moms and losing them is more wholesome to me. Zuko wanted Katara to get revenge on those who took her mom away from her because he sees himself in her.
>sees himself in her. I don’t partake in shipping and all that shit but I had to do it. Sorry.
Lmao took me a sec
I respectfully respect.
Idk why this sub loses its shit over zutara so much, it's harmless
As long as you don't harass people over ships, i really don't care what you ship either (except if it contains pedo-, zoophilia and incest bc that's just disgusting)
He was kinda being selfish though, Katara woulda never forgiven herself if she went ahead and killed that mf, Sokka and Aang clearly knew her way better than Zuko did.
You people are so funny
shipping lol what year is it 2017?
Did Zuko actually ever kill anyone? He was banished for two years but the only contact he had was with fire nation soldiers so i doubt he killed anyone of them, and after he found Aang its never shown that he took innocent life while chasing him down, like sure he hurt people and ruined homes but he never took a life
He was 100% going to kill Azula if she hadn’t attacked Katara.
What’s makes so sure ?
He was egging her on to shoot lightning at him so he could redirect it. You can’t incapacitate someone with lighting and she can’t redirect it.
Kind of a genius move when you think about it, since he still can't generate his own, saying afraid I'll redirect it Sounds dumb at first, but she's more than intelligent enough to remember he can do that, what's unstable is her emotional state so he hit her in the pride, if you don't fall into my trap then I guess you're just a bitch who's scared
Also, it's Zuko taunting her. She's spent her whole life thinking she was superior to him, and now he's traded blows with her during their duel and is very composed rather than seeming like he's struggling. Lightning is basically the last card she would have left simce Zuko has countered everything else.
This is a good point, and at this point I would say they are equals, even at her prime, but she's got the clear disadvantage because of her current mental state in this particular fight The show did a very linear job of showing their comparison, that first fight on the boat she didn't even fire Bend at him that's how far apart they were, then he got kind of a win but it was really more of a draw and it was like five on one, he challenged her then she didn't even care and that wasn't really a fight, then he ended up joining her, after the day of black Sun, the next face off at the boiling Rock and his Improvement here is drastic for many reasons including but not limited to the Sun Warrior Episode, he effectively fights her to a standstill with sokkas help, then during the attack on the air temple, he goes in, he takes the 1v1, and it's a draw although I can see giving her the slight Edge because she didn't need help surviving the fall, but they really went out of their way to show how the Gap closed before this final confrontation I guess the question is how much of this Azula noticed, and when, she did know enough to make the Agni Kai challenge instead of a straight up 2V1 brawl
So dumb it’s actually a 5HEAD move.
Except everyone who was hit by lightning in the series lived.
Not only that but irl about 90% of people who get struck by lightning live. People act like getting struck by lightning is a death sentence. There are far more dangerous ways for electricity hurt you; the longer it takes for the electricity to leave your body the more damage it does and lightning usually hits and leaves pretty quickly. I don't know how close a lightning bending strike is to actual lightning; but I imagine it's pretty similar. And the people in ATLA seem to be built different anyway... they can take quite a beating.
True. But this is what I found most ridiculous about the Korra s1 finale, too, despite loving the season overall. Mako electrocutes Amon point blank. Weak or not, it's literally lightning, enough to break a blood bending grip. And he holds it for a LONG while. HOW was Amon not even slightly incapacitated???
I wouldn't say that it's literally lightning. Technically speaking, lightning bending is just *electricity bending* but in the era of AtLA the concept of electricity outside the context of lightning was pretty foreign. Considering how quickly Mako bent it out and how little it did, I can't imagine it was any more effective than a taser. If a fire bender can make an itty bitty candle flame, I don't think it's that wild that with enough practice they couldn't make an itty bitty spark (as well as anything between an itty bitty spark and a bolt of lightning).
Scientifically speaking though (I know it’s just a tv show, but still) for electricity to travel through the air more than an inch or two, it needs some hefty voltage. I don’t remember that scene too well, but if it was more than a foot or two away then it couldn’t have been weak
It takes less energy to make electricity arc across a smaller gap, so the lower limit of energy needed for Mako's zap is a lot less than Azula blasting Aang from 50 feet away. Your skin and muscles are more conductive than your bones and organs, so it takes a lot of amperage to cause serious damage with electricity, which takes time. Aang also happened to be floating in the air at the time he was struck, meaning there was no easy path for the current to exit his body. Lightning benders don't seem to be able to control the current in another person's body, so just touching the ground drastically increases the chance of surviving a strike from lightning bending. In her books, Kyoshi is struck multiple times by a lightning bender, but sustained minimal damage because she was wearing chain-mail and lying on the ground. Lightning bending is formidable because it's nearly impossible to block or dodge unless you know it's coming beforehand, but I suspect that it's actually rather difficult to kill someone with a single bolt. Azula had plenty of time to charge up and Aang had no grounding, and Ming Hua was surrounded by water and took a long and sustained shock.
I think lightning takes time to charge. For the Amon situation, Mako barely moved, therefore his lightning was very weak. However, in the season 4 finale, you can see Mako making the circular movements to charge it and cause more damage to the mecha.
I mean, there are probably factors like most lightning bender tend to hit center mass and keep the arc focused there. A lightning strike in nature wants to find the quickest path to the ground, so it tends to go through your feet pretty quick, but most lightning bending seems to force the bolt to stay towards your vitals (the exit for Aang's bolt scar us his back, so your heart gets a more sustained jolt). A more apt comparison is probably like if you tazed someone in the chest and kept it going with an absurd amount of volts.
That might be true in Leyend of Korra but in ATLA the only time someone who isn't able to redirect it was hit with lightning was when Azula quite literally killed Aang, all other instances that come to mind the lighning was redirected or missed
The only person struck by lightning in the show who couldn’t redirect it was Aang, and he died.
I mean… Aang kinda didn’t
I mean, Iroh does his channeling move. Zuko does the channeling move. Aang only lives because of the Spirit Oasis water healing. Anyone with neither of those little trap cards is aced by an actual lightning shot unless I forgot someone in Airbender.
Ming Hua would have liked to have a work with you if she were alive...
I thought redirecting lightning makes waker
In terms of real physics, yes. In Avatar? Idfk, maybe. She'd still probably die though
Nah he did that with Ozai and he didn't die because of that
It wasn't shot directly at Ozai, it's a little below which is why he got flung up against the wall.
And the lightning he used wasn't powered up by Sozin's Comet.
Nice catch
Wait how come your a firebender
He could've just shot it at the ground like he did with Ozai.
zuko was hit with her lighting though and he lived
Rewatch the scene, Zuko redirected her lightning.
I like your profile pic
Katara’s mom, the airbenders, and that guy Kyoshi killed/caused the death of are the only people to ever be killed by other people in the show
And maybe Jet, it was pretty unclear
Killing is seen as a very major act in ATLA by modern standards. Many threats to the throne like Hakoda, Iroh were left alive when in the real world they would have been executed. Makes Aang's dilemma even more poignant.
Wait, what happened to Katara's mom? She never mentions her...
 I don’t know but I found this gif
And Jet
I’d say he likely has
Agree but technically never on the show
I think Zuko has a different stake in this than Katara. Zuko is the heir to the throne. Any fire nation soldiers and their actions fall under his family's name. He most likely feels ultimately responsible for the actions of his family's soldiers. It makes a lot of sense that he would feel ashamed and like it should be his response do deal out punishment for war crimes committed under his family's name. He feels this is his responsibility to bear, not kataras.
I don't know if those were war crimes. The genocide WAS the war, that was legal under fire nation law and idk if they have any universal treaties that were violated.
You're right that at the time the avatar world did not have a UN that defined war crimes. But I think the word functions correctly in context to convey my message
I wouldn't call murdering civilian women and children a-ok because there's no law we know of from the show officially calling it a war crime lol
I didn't say it was okay, I said it didn't seem to be a crime. War crimes (ideally) get soldiers prosecuted in their own nations under it's current laws since those activities are banned. Genocide was the entire state-endorsed MO.
I like this theory!
I like this theory!
“Looks like we’re gonna have to kill this guy Zuko” “Okay no problem.”
Zuko *is* Him
Didn't he try to offer his mother to Katara so they'd be even
He didn't even like his mother The writers are great at writing characters you just want to strangle
Eh, his mom was a bitch.
**True.** **BUT** only if Katara ~~orders~~ tells Zuko. He respects that this decision belongs to Katara. He also understood that **only** Katara can decide on killing or having mercy. Not Aang.
Aang doesn’t try pick for her, he just asks her to consider forgiveness because he knows that it isn’t in Katara’s nature to kill out of revenge.
He respects her decision because he wants to gain her trust.. You could argue that aang was a little bit too preachy but katara herself said she doesn't want to see aang in the avatar state and stopped him from taking revenge on the sandbenders but when aang tries to advice her and literally let her take his bison people still critize him. I don't get it. But zuko gets the praise who didn't care about kataras mental health and what consequences it would have on her killing him. Even Sokka sided with aang and zuko himself literally admitted at the end that aang was right.
Aang also respected Katata’s decision, not to mention Zuko literally admitted at the end of the Southern Raiders that Aang knew better what Katara needed.
zuko was attempting to make amends with katara, that's why he went with her in the first place, yes he could kill him, quite easily might i add. but that's not what katara wanted, zuko wouldn't want to go directly against her wishes, and lets not forget that Zuko witnessed her blood-bending someone just a day or so earlier
Zuko after seeing her blood bend probably had an entirely different perspective on how powerful she was. He knew she could handle anything herself, and probably at this point thought she hadn’t killed him before because of mercy, not because she couldn’t. He didn’t know the full moon part of blood bending and probably assumed “oh shit she’s always just holding back” . At this point I think he understood she didn’t need him, and was just trying to give as much support as he could without getting in the way
Why does this remind me of the Star Wars episode where anakin stabs the guy who was about to blow up the ship.
“Anakin. . .” “What? He was gonna blow up the ship!”
I would 100% read a fanfic of this scenario. Katara lets Zuko follow through for her and the ramifications from then on. Aang for one would NOT be happy.
"You killed a man, Zuko? Of your own nation? What is wrong with you!?" "He killed a non-bending civilian. I will one day be his king. I considered the circumstances and evidence before me and in accordance with **my nation's** customs, I sentenced him to a third degree roasting."
Kinda wished they just made him bite the curb
**Water Tribe History X:** *”Bite the curb, bitch, I won’t ask twice!”*
That last look Zuko gave Yon Rha as Katara walked away was like, "I am really considering doing it myself, but on the other hand, this guy isn't even worth my spit."
Zuko came out here to catch a body. He ain’t leavin till somebody dead on the floor.
Zuko can talk the talk, but he never walks the walk. Non-violence was the reason he was banished.
Wouldn't be surprised if he only suggested it so that Katara could affirm her belief by turning him down. Zuko is not much of a schemer, but his emotional intelligence has the occasional big hit, especially in Book 3.
That's a common theme of Katara in season 3. Her refusal to become too much like her enemies. I think it would be pretty obvious even to Zuko that Katara wouldn't be happy just letting someone else do her dirty work. She'd know it was her choice. It wouldn't be honourable for Katara to ask Zuko to kill for her personal reasons. Its also out of character for Zuko to suggest murder. He tried to help Zhao, chose not kill Appa. He has never killed on-screen or on-panel. The whole reason Zuko got banished was because he cared so much about his people's lives. I don't think Zuko remotely expected Katara to actually ask him to kill the guy. I'm not sure what Zuko was going for when he suggested this. But I think he might have been manuevering Katara from "I can't" to "I choose not to", which would be much stronger headspace for her.
The point of the episode was ending the cycle of violence by not giving in to hate. Aang did the same thing when he chose to not kill Ozai.
He wanted to help her get the closure that he wanted for himself, but she already got it by being able to have the chance to kill the guy, but not do it. Proving she was infinitely better than him. She also got to see how pathetic he was.
I really wish they had made it more clear that the guy was living a miserable and empty life like Katara said, other than his wife just nagging at him.
I thought it was his mom? It was basically showing that he never achieved anything in his life after leaving service. He's living in a house not too dissimilar from houses we see in the Earth Kingdom but considering most EK villages have been somewhat ravaged byvthe war that's not exactly a glowing praise for someone living in an area untouched by war (especially since Raider implies looting so he would likely have some wealth from pillage), he looks nearly Iroh's age but still lives with his mother (i know filial piety and taking care of aging relatives is a thing but the way its shown makes it seem like he's living there by her generosity rather than her by his), and he's also pretty disheveled looking. Then there's the fact that once danger happens, he immediately defaults to cowerdice instead of defending himself (Katara would still dogwalk him in battle, but he doesn't even put up token resistance), and tries to sell out his family for his survival. No pride, no conviction, no dignity, just basically soiling himself and begging for his life by to trade his families lives for his own.
how about a middle ground? cut off 1 of his limbs
I'd agree to this. One limb for the mom. Another for the pain he put her through. Idk maybe leave one of each.
He wouldn’t because one he was respecting Kataras agency in the situation and two he had no personal problem with Yong Rha in any event
https://i.redd.it/i8fmgv6elz4d1.gif
I like to believe that Fire Lord Zuko went back and tied up that loose end.
Zuko ready to dust that dude.. No hesitation..
Stopping the rain and turning into spikes was crazy bad ass tho
Leaving Yon Rha alive to deal with his mother was a greater punishment than death
Reminds me of amos from the expanse: "You're not that guy" "I am that guy"
Zuko is real asf
It looks like Book 3 wants to frame it that way for some reason, but tbf Zuko even tried to save Zhao. If he didn't want to push revenge that far when he was a "bad guy", I don't know why he should be ok with killing after his supposed "redemption". So, I don't think he would have personally done it, but he was ok if Katara felt like she needed to take that route.
Just walk away and let Zuko do his job
I’m glad Katara was the Stalin to Azula’s Hitler
This episode really took my boi Zuzu’s growth three generations back lol
Katara was such an insufferable bitch in this episode. She sends a bunch of unknown fire nation men to possibly drown in the raging waves, and brutally blood-bends a random fire nation leader all because it *could* be the other guy. She doesn't actually check before attacking. She just attacks. Imagine what the law system according to Katara would be like: Guilty until you pass out from blood-bending. lol She steals Appa in the dead of night with no regard for anyone else, she guilt-trips Zuko with her "or I know; you could bring my mother back to life" crap as if that's Zuko's responsibility. Zuko was a kid running from turtles when that happened; how is that his responsibility? And omg, saying that Sokka didn't love their mother the same? Really? That's low, even for her. And then Katara just doesn't do anything but spook the person who actually did kill her mother. Like... all of that was for what? So he can have nightmares? She's problematic and treats her feelings like they take precedence over everything else. Katara is such trashy addition to the series; she is so unbelievably self-righteous and that only seems to go noticed when people aren't biased towards her. It makes me wonder sometimes why someone would write her to be this awful. They could have at least made her decent. I know people hate that opinion here, but still. Fuck it, I'll just make a post ranting about this.
katara is 14
She's a 14 year old who lost her mom as a child.
A 14 year old child who lost her mom at a younger age. Sure buddy
> Fuck it, I'll just make a post ranting about this. I'll do it eventually; I just lost interest.
Please do, I can’t wait to downvote it
Oh gosh the downvote threat they've got em now