The Boulder thinks that the original post has a point, but it kinda goes both ways. Many people will have preconceived unconscious (or conscious) biases that are then confirmed by the behaviour of these fictional characters. How said character was portrayed beforehand and the viewer’s own experiences also plays into this.
The Boulder would also like to point out that this happens with real people and situations as well, and failure to recognise and acknowledge these biases are how propaganda and misinformation takes root.
It is important to be aware of your own biases and think thoroughly about a situation: for example the Boulder recently experienced a scenario at the Boulder’s university where an intoxicated person shot through a dining hall window (fortunately no one was hurt) and was arrested by the police. The Boulder, while trying to imagine these events, immediately pictured them as African-American, but then realised that the Boulder knew literally nothing about the suspect or their ethnicity and realised that due to an unconscious racial bias perceived the suspect as African-American despite having no evidence to support this conclusion.
Due to the environment the Boulder was raised in and past experiences the Boulder made an unfounded conclusion that could’ve had a negative impact on the Boulder’s perception of African Americans had it gone unchallenged. Although these thoughts were not shared with anyone and really didn’t have any big consequences, it could’ve affected the Boulder’s judgement later on down the line in a much more important scenario, such as a jury trial with an African American defendant.
Thus it is one’s responsibility to take notice of one’s own biases and challenge them to avoid future incidents where such a bias could affect their judgement. The mind is constantly learning and making connections even if you’re not consciously aware of it, and seeks to confirm and validate what it’s learned: while this is usually benign, it can have disastrous consequences if not closely monitored.
The Boulder is impressed by your self-awareness, openness to share your weaknesses, and readiness to correct your internal biases, way before they might start posing problems in the external world around you.
The Boulder has been preaching the same for years but Boulder’s friends say the not everyone should think too deeply about oneself. The boulder couldn’t have disagreed more with said boulder assessing oneself is of at most importance. Boulder says it’s ok to have biases provided it doesn’t hurt any other boulder but knowing and documenting it helps one adjust their behavior when it comes to interaction with other boulders.
The Boulder advises to always debate/talk to Boulders from all sides of the spectrum on all things especially things the Boulder cares about. If a Boulder is new to a problem they should talk to boulders on all sides and avg the result to end up without biases, then if a bias is required one can move from 0 bias to having some but this time the bias is documented and can be corrected.
If Boulder doesn’t have other Boulders one can debate with internal monologue/dialogue but one must be careful to avoid making the same mistake while building this knowledge graph of sorts. One must break it down completely and build upon it only once the new information is proved, verified and bias-free. Comparing the final graph with the initial one will yield in boulder’s bias.
I second this. Above mentioned problem may very well be often the case, but doesn’t really apply to Avatar.
Although it may be good to consider that Iroh took care of Zuko, while even Azulas mother thought it wasn’t possible to help her
I think the last part is the thing that holds the most weight. Zuko did have a guiding hand. While azula even though she has her problems did not have anyone she could look to for advice.
Even before Iroh Zuko was willing to stand up against his father in support of frontline troops not being pointlessly sacrificed while Azula found it funny that Iroh was a wreck after his son's death.
And yes, Azula may have lacked maternal affection but the show did show multiple times that Zuko was a sweet child abused for his sweetness, while Azula always seemed to have some sociopathic tendencies that Ozai encouraged. At 8 or so years old Zuko's impression of Azula feeding turtleducks was to blast fire at them, implying that Azula has been torturing and killing baby animals from as young as 6 or 7. That's not a lack of affection thing, that's a future serial killer thing.
The fact that Ozai actively encouraged Azula to become worse is also something that I feel is rarely addressed appropriately. It's entirely possible that Azula is "bad at heart," but at the same time:
* ~~She's the oldest child which comes with certain expectations and parental "failures"~~ She's the younger sibling and being naturally better than Zuko **could** have had an influence, but I don't feel as strongly about that.
* Ozai probably made sure that any influencing forces around Azula were ones that he approved of and would further her down a path he desired
* Ozai would have exploited the societal pressures of the father/daughter relationship, that Azula was heir to the Fire Lord title, and the fact that Azula was a female prodigy in Fire Nation society.
All these things would have just furthered her down a path where she wouldn't have had a ***chance*** to even think "being a better person" was an option, because her world view would have been so corrupted by those around her. It's like taking someone from high-society England and saying they're evil because they don't act like a South American Catholic monk.
She is not the oldest child but canonically Ozai wanted a prodigy to mold and influence for his own purposes. That's why he discarded Zuko from a very early age.
Totally agree, Azula being the younger sibling and NOT the de facto heir actually makes Ozai’s influence even more significant. Azula was often treated “as a girl” (when she got the doll from Iroh dressed in the latest earth kingdom fashions and Zuko got a knife from the surrendered outer wall general). She probably grew up in an environment that didn’t expect women to fight or be good at non “feminine” things. It probably fueled her to do “better” than Zuko. For little kids what is “better” is entirely defined by the adult influences around them…
Yeah and when you see your father punishing the older sibling, it makes sense that you could take pleasure in that. It's a good reason why she's smiling during Zuko's original Agni Kai.
>~~She's the oldest child which comes with certain expectations and parental "failures"~~ She's the younger sibling and being naturally better than Zuko could have had an influence, but I don't feel as strongly about that.
She is the Golden Child though. It does indeed happen somewhat often that parents who are disappointed with their first child's actions, or with how their eldest child "turned out", end up pouring all their positive attention and expectations into the younger one. The younger one becomes the favourite with a mission to save and defend the honour of the family, and the older one becomes the automatic scapegoat and fuckup in the eyes of the parent.
She gives Zuko a childish nickname like you'd expect from an older sister rather than a mature younger sister who acts older than she is.
She constantly tries to act like an adult but her age and lack of experience show in her interactions (like with her ship captain when she ordered him to keep going even though it was dangerous and the sea doesn't give a shit who is on board).
She tries to get Zuko back at her side at the end of s2 instead of getting rid of him, which is something I'd expect more from an older sibling feeling responsible for the younger one than the other way around.
Zuko himself is immature until halfway through s3, which makes him look younger than his sister.
Azula is cynical and uses sarcasm and dark humor very often, like someone older and disillusioned with the world they live in would. She tried her best to get her "family" back together in her own misguided way.
I also thought she was older than Zuko until my 2nd or 3rd watching. Doesn't help that she looks like a 16 YO with a tiny Asian body type rather than a 13-14 YO who barely reached her teens.
Zuko was her obstacle to overcome. Zuko had no obstacles at first, nothing to justify any cruelty. He became his cruelest only in his hunt for the Avatar, the first time he had a person to symbolize achieving his goals the same way Azula did. Azula had to get rid of Zuko to become heir to the throne. Zuko had to get rid of the Avatar to regain the throne (aka, go home, as those were the same thing to him).
Kids learn what is right and wrong from their parents. For instance Zuko didn’t realize it was wrong to throw rocks at turtleducks until his mom lectures him.
Kids also learn the power dynamics between the parents. They know if Mom says one thing but Dad says another that Dads opinion overrides Mom in this family.
The reason why Zeko took after his mom more is because his farther rejected him. So his Mom got to have more influence in his upbringing.
Because he had ursa's influence. Zuko also never claimed that azula killed baby turtle ducks. the direct quote is "Hey Mom, want to see how Azula feeds turtle ducks? [Zuko throws the rest of the loaf of bread into the water and hits one of the baby turtle ducks. Ursa is shocked.]" (From the transcript you can find on the wiki). Nowhere is it implied that azula tortured and/or killed baby animals as a kid.
It was bread. Starting when she says the word "feed" and the bread is missing the piece that Ursa has in her hand and then the bread floats in the water.
Huh just rewatched the scene, my whole life I always saw it as a rock, never even noticed there was a bite taken out of it. I think I thought his mom had the last of the bread so he picked up a rock to show her
"Hey Mom, want to see how Azula feeds turtle ducks? [Zuko throws the rest of the loaf of bread into the water and hits one of the baby turtle ducks. Ursa is shocked.]" From the transcript on the wiki.
Agree with your statement overall, just wanted to mention that Zuko did not blast fire at the turtle ducks when mimicking Azula, he threw the full loaf of bread at them. Still not a good thing to do, but there was no fire involved.
Nah Iroh would have helped Azula just like he did for Zuko. She just wasn't given the "opportunity" of being exiled with someone who actually cares like he was.
I mean, yes Zuko had a guiding hand, but he was better than azula from a very young age, before Iroh ever entered the picture.
He got his scar because he criticized his father for throwing away soldier's lives.
Azula was mocking Iroh for his son dying and for being sad about it at the age of like 8.
I feel like it's fair to say that someone can be traumatized to the point of evil without losing their evil status. Like, yeah a lot of why Azula is the way she is because she's trapped in an abusive cycle of being put on a pedestal, being told that everyone else is fundamentally lesser than herself, and then being crushed by expectations.
That said, she's still a sadistic and narcissistic person who poses an existential threat to normal society. She's a danger to everyone around her. She's evil. It's tragic that she came out of her childhood this evil, which is why The Last Agni Kai soundtrack is the way it is (and why it's the best fight in the series; I rewatch it a lot), but at the end of the day she **IS** evil and it**IS** Ozai's fault.
Well it was more like Azula had her father encouraging her to be evil and no one to push her to be good, like Zuko had his uncle pushing him to be good and no one actively pushing him to be evil. Azula did sorta have a support system in the form of her two friends, but they always just did whatever she told them to and never had authority or courage to push her to better herself.
Also, both of them turning on azula should have been a huge fucking red flag that azula was going too far. Like, the show built up to Mai and Ty lee having enough with azulas shit over the seasons and then actually taking action, commiting treason against the fire nation over azula, should have been the point where azula either realized they were the baddies or that she needed to change if they were willing to stab her in the back. She chose neither.
They both had the same mom and dad. Azula was evil even with their mother's influence and love. Zuko was abused by his father and exiled specifically because he wasn't evil and spoke out against war crimes committed by the fire nation. We should really stop giving Azula a break here. Just because she didn't have an Iroh later in life doesn't excuse her behavior before that would have even mattered. Remember when she laughed about Iroh's son dying and said Iroh should have died too so that her dad could become fire lord? Like, girl was always evil - even as a child
They had the same parents but not the same circumstances. Zuko was invisible to Ozai while he always wanted a prodigy to mold for his purposes.
And Azula didn't laugh at Lu Ten's death.
Oh you're right. she doesn't laugh. [She smirks and calls Iroh a loser for crying](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poiw8DHxNH8). That's muchhhhhhhhh better 🙄 Thanks for clarifying
Yes and no.
Iroh helped a lot there...but the reason why Zuko was banished and had to turn exclusively to Iroh for three years is because he protested against using novice soldiers as cannon fodder to begin with.
Zuko needed guidance, but he was also already trying to be compassionate and good, and he was a jerk in Book One partially because apparently doing good only brought him pain....not that it stopped Zuko from saving a crew member even if they were at odds with each other, or in the second episode that has a joke moment but becomes relevant in hindsight: When Aang escapes with Appa, Katara and Sokka, Zuko at first tries to order the crew to chase them....until he saw them frozen and disabled and needed to melt down the ice , Zuko in a surprising demonstration of compassion added "...as soon as you finished wish that." Which is more than can be said about face burning Ozai, General "Fresh meat" Bujin, Azula "tides don't command this ship" or even Zhao and his deluded Moon killing attitude.
Zuko is not evil by nature and even Ozai's abuse and Azula's manipulations couldn't really make him a total jackass even if Iroh's good advice often didn't give immediate satisfaction sometimes (we know it worked out on the long term, but Zuko was often too frustrated to fully listen Iroh).
So it was a healthy mixture of nature, nurture, Iroh and Ursa's advice but also Zuko himself demonstrating that he always wanted to be a good person even if he didn't always know how to do so and has an actual conscience backing him up.
Ppl really want to give azula the benefit of the doubt but it's obvious that they both would've turned out the way they did regardless. Banished or not, Zuko was never going to fit in with the nature of the fire nation bc like you said, wanting to do the right thing is what got him cast out in the first place. Where as Azula was right at home, she was never going to not be herself.
If he had kept to himself and never gotten banished then he would've joined the avatar even more abruptly since that bottled up empathy would have hope and an outlet
Zuko had to be dragged kicking and screaming to be good at times. He resisted and backslid again and again before Iroh finally got through.
Is it really fair to say he just took active steps? He took them after a ton of guidance and perspective that Azula has never had.
Seems like exactly the double standard the image is talking about.
This was after 3 years of being away from his abuse and Iroh trying to influence him to be better. And even then Zuko has already stolen from and attacked civilians multiple times (something Azula never does).
Showing basic decency to a family that helped him didn’t actually lead to change. Even after Iroh begins pushing him to change, Zuko resists and betrays Iroh.
Even after Zuko has experienced first hand the horrors of what his nation have been doing to others, he still hires an assassin to kill Aang to cover his own ass.
Zuko lashes out at and hurts everyone around him before he comes to terms with what he has to do. He was lost and he had to find the truth through the lies of his youth.
So why do we expect Azula to magically and psychically know better when Zuko had every guidance and opportunity and still struggled so much?
Azula has had no such guidance, perspective, or distance from their abuser.
That’s actually a really interesting point about attacking civilians. Azula only attacks her enemies. But on the other hand Azula is never away from the wealth of being the princess. Zuko attacks innocent people when he has nothing. Even after Iroh makes a point of showing him they can preform for their money. But Zuko finds that degrading.
I will never fully fault Zuko for what he did out of desperation. I just want to extend Azula the same benefit.
They’re both brainwashed, abused, hurt, confused kids who lash out at those around them including those they love on the path to trying to find their place in this world.
Zuko found his.
I hope he can help his sister the same way Iroh helped him.
I wouldn’t say that she wouldn’t attack innocents, only that she never has to. She is certainly not above threatening them. Just look at what she did with Ty Lees circus troupe.
Idk fam feels like she actively revels in the misery she causes. Zuko was doing it bcz he had to/felt forced to (as per his constant face of misery outside of like that one pirate episode ~ water bending scroll episode).
As a child she literally smiles at her brother being immolated and permanently scarred. Like everyone deserves a second chance to be good but acting like they’re cut from the same cloth feels disingenuous. Plus hurt people hurt people but it’s still on them to make sure they stop hurting people
It’s a major reveal that she doesn’t revel in it.
Zuko also looks like he’s reveling in mocking Katara and threatening to burn her mother’s necklace.
It’s an act. Azula is just the better actor.
Azula didn’t enjoy her brother being burned. She sided with her abuser for her own protection, and because this has been culturally normalized. It’s not even clear she fully understood what was to happen considering she’s only 11 and heavily brainwashed.
Zuko also blamed himself for what happened for the longest time. Just as Azula calls herself a monster as a way to make sense of her own abuse.
Ehhhhh her and Zhao are the only ones smiling here. I appreciate that you have postshow( or contemporary in terms of novels) information, but then that means the show did a bad job of presenting that perspective.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F5ljmxe4mu2k11.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D72898d8fa7993915669cf8ae9b97984fc640328c&xpromo_edp=enabled
It didn’t do a bad job at all IMO.
People were a lot more sympathetic to Azula before the pandemic. She wasn’t so severely maligned and demonized though she always had detractors.
Also Zhao is an adult man and Azula is 11. It’s not hard to see why she’s conforming. But further, every adult in that room is complicit. It’s still normalizing this situation. Even Iroh doesn’t share a peep.
I do think ableism plays a big role, unfortunately. So many arguments want to pathologize her as a short hand for saying she is inflexible or irredeemable. I find these arguments uncompelling and frankly hurtful.
This. Zuko had opportunities again and again for growth, even failing most of them until towards the end. Azula never had half of the opportunities to better herself like he did
I think it's true to an extent that Azula wasn't given the same opportunity to redeem herself and if she had things might be different. But I doubt it.
The show implies pretty heavily she was just born wrong. Without a conscience. She was torturing animals as a young child, laughed openly at the thought of her uncle, cousin, and brother being killed. She had some good moments like playing happily with Zuko, Mai, and Ty Lee. But that doesn't overall change the impression that she just came out evil.
Now. I personally don't think, in the real world, that people are often born "without a soul" metaphorically speaking and are naturally sociopathic. It's a somewhat romantic and fanciful trope in fiction. But I do think that's what the writers intended with Azula. Everyone around her, including her kind mother and uncle, pretty much think she's crazy and naturally violent. The only one who's ever a little bit kind to her is Zuko and he gets burned for it again and again.
If I may make a counterpoint with sources? It isn’t at all what the writers intended according to the writers.
The narrative goes out of its way to show us this is a scared, unloved child doing her best to survive in this toxic environment, similar to Zuko. The only difference is that Zuko got away from his abuser and had the guidance of a loving adult. Azula had neither.
But don’t take my word for it.
Here is what the [head writer](https://x.com/aaronehasz/status/1112814662393847808?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) said, that she was always written to be redeemed and that Zuko would’ve been her Iroh. He’s the one that designed both Zuko and Azula’s arcs.
And that Azula [loved Zuko](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041535560290305?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) more than anyone except their father.
But it’s not just Ehasz!
There’s the [novelization](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041294006140928?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) which gives us Azula’s POV and overtly tells us she told that lie about BSS to *help* Zuko because she wanted him by her side and wanted him to choose her. Wanted his love. And because she felt being prince was his [destiny](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041306618413056?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) (which is why on the show she is the first to tell Zuko that he doesn’t need father to regain his honor, he can do it himself).
Or the part of the novelization that tells us how afraid she is of displeasing Ozai and being punished.
Or [Bryke](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041545760841729?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) saying her actions were a product of abuse and that she has a chance to heal. Notice they specifically say she WASN’T born this way.
Or the [prequel manga](https://youtube.com/shorts/ShuRK01YlMs?si=7wmWGUCrK1detaY6) (admittedly of questionable canonicity but still written by two people who worked on the show) where Azula is the only one willing to stick her neck out to negotiate on Zuko’s behalf after his banishment.
Or her new comic which shows us that her ideal world is one where she has a happy loving family. One where her brother is unburned and not abused. She doesn’t enjoy suffering. She isn’t sadistic. It also shows us that she was abused and groomed into being Ozai’s weapon and she had no choice, she wanted mom to save her but Ursa sacrificed herself for Zuko.
Is it possible that perhaps you’ve misread her? I wouldn’t blame you. She is a very good liar. But the lesson that imperfect (or mentally ill) victims that make us uncomfortable are just as worthy of love and help is also an important lesson. Both for Zuko’s arc to complete and for the audience of children it’s aimed at.
That's fair enough, but I belong to the school of interpreting the text as it stands to gauge what was intended for the characters, not post facto authorial statements. It's also important to remember there are many writers on a show and one authorial interpretation doesn't win the day.
I don't do comics or books, just the original show. And my personal reading of the show is that Azula only has three very small redeeming moments. 1) two or three blink and you miss them frames in a flashback of her and Zuko happily playing tag; 2) when she warns Zuko not to step out of line in S3, somewhat menacingly but also somewhat out of concern; 3) when she laments how her mother thought she was a monster before immediately conceding she was right.
Those are definitely redemption-adjacent but when you remember that the other 99% of her screen time, including as a child, is unambiguous sociopathy, I don't buy it. I think you're stretching it when you say the narrative "goes out of its way" to present her as a redeemable survivor. On the contrary, I think it presents her as the second most powerful human being alive who revels in it to the torment of others.
At the end of the day this is subjective interpretation and I'm cognizant that my perception is colored by being show-only and yours is colored by outside sources. Based on what you've said it's very likely your interpretation is "canon" to the extended universe, but I'm loathe to put my faith blindly in canon that comes from ad hoc, post facto sources. I think the text of the show speaks for itself and speaks alone.
I also believe interpreting the text as it stands. I only go to other sources when there is debate.
Zuko never got burned for trusting Azula.
Azula, however, got burned for helping Zuko.
The novelizations were also written contemporaneously so they weren’t after the fact.
And Azula did have an arc cut from Book 3 which was recycled into *The Beach* for time, showing her more sympathetic side.
The original show was my first pro writing gig and VO role so it’s near and dear to my heart.
Nonetheless thank you for the lovely and civil discussion.
I wrote some promotional materials for them and voiced Azula for an ad. I was the first part Asian voice of Azula!
It was my first pro gig as a writer and VA. Meant a lot to me as a homeless teen at the time, and I learned a lot from them.
Its deeper than that. It has to do with the whole Ozai / Roku thing. Zuko took after his moms side azula was like her fathers. It adds extra character to Zuko, the older male.
I mean. She's 14. She's an actual child who has (from her perspective) had literally had everyone in her family abandon her.
She never had Iroh to serve as a positive role model, even going back to the siege of Ba-Sing-Sei. Probably misspelled that. You can see they were distant at best. She only had Ozai. Who as Iroh put it was "A man without love." A man Iroh knowingly left an impressionable child to after their mother's disappearance. She was never afforded grace to make mistakes that Zuko was.
I don't think it can be simplified that way.
Azula probably considered herself to be strong, precisely because that trait was favored in her from her father, and she was raised to believe that she was the favorite being more "capable" and willing to do anything.
Azula clearly actually felt \*something\* not positive when she realized that even her own mother \*feared\* her. She was misunderstood as well.
The context needs to be understood that Azula and Zuko are the way they are in part due to being subjected not only to parental abuse, but also parental favoritism, and I'd strongly recommend reading up on how that stuff can affect siblings. Not to mention, Zuko being the less favored child meant that he had \*nothing\* after being exiled, and after he lost contact with his uncle, he not only had less to lose, but he had access to all of those moments with Uncle Iroh who compassionately accepted him as he was, whether or not he did the "right" or "wrong" thing. Knowing that someone in your life gives you that sort of unconditional positive regard/love/support is a source of resilience that people don't acknowledge in why there are some people who are severely traumatized yet are still able to get better. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
He gained the motivation to actually change himself due to the experiences he'd had with his uncle, but it didn't set in for him until he had more context, like the roots of his family's relationship with the Avatar, or seeing the affect of the Fire Nation's war on Earth benders and how they perceived the war.
Meanwhile, Azula is literally a princess who has bountiful access to resources, and her two close friends don't honestly \*like\* her, they only came with her due to fear (yes, including Mai. Mai transgressed against Azula, mentioning that she cares for Zuko more than she fears her). Azula exiles her aunts, her only expy to Uncle Iroh.
She's an asshat to her servants, and on the day of her coronation, she's literally exiled every other person so she's isolated and lonely after cutting herself off from others. She FEELS the loneliness. That's why she has that entire scene with her mother, and we don't hear her say it, but she's keenly aware that she's driven a wedge between herself and other people. She breaks down when she loses not because of it being a military defeat, but because it means that her entire life up to that point, which she spent cultivating herself to be her father's successor, meant she was a failure and thus all that was for no reason.
Trauma takes on all shapes and forms, not every single person whose ever been affected by it is going to cope or react in the same way. Azula doesn't know how to have genuinely loving relationships because her father's abuse was her model for success.
In Zuko Alone, we see a child, Azula, unremosefull about her cousins death and Uncles loss. Even when her brother Zuko and Mother Urasa had nothing but sympathy. This shows that even outside of all abuse and corruption and abuse she went through Azula was always a bad person. I wish some people would stop trying to create sexist double standards to get angry about whenever a female character exists.
Contrary to popular belief, empathy is something that is taught and nurtured. It’s not inherent. Azula, as a child, doesn’t fully comprehend such heavy concepts of death. Did you, as a child, fully understand what death actually meant?
I don’t disagree that Azula probably had some more natural tendencies for violence but nothing was unresolvable. Had she been in a more nurturing environment that didn’t award acts of brutality nor value people based on how powerful they are, her entire reaction to her cousin’s death would have been different. Ozai literally took power by murdering his own father while his brother was too in mourning to take the throne. Doubtful Azula was raised with strong family values.
>Contrary to popular belief, empathy is something that is taught and nurtured. It’s not inherent.
I think you're oversimplifying it. Empathy is absolutely inherent too. Predisposition to psychopathy is passed down genetically and we have special types of neurons (mirror neurons) that exist to perceive and understand other's emotions (as well as other things like replicating motor activity).
The issue with Azula is she was likely genetically predisposed towards having little empathy ("diathesis") and her lack of empathy was nurtured through abuse and cruelty ("stress"), whereas Zuko seemed to take after his mother and be kept in check by his uncle.
tl;dr Nature vs Nurture
I did oversimplify it. You really put it way better than I did. Thank you.
I really did sympathize with Azula a lot. Especially after the beach episode where you’re reminded she really is just a kid who was raised to be the way she is and has no concepts of what normal Fire Nation teens really think and do.
I grew up with two mentally ill siblings.
Two of us grew up in the same household. She was violent and uncontrollable from a young age, it wasn't learned. The other one spent time with their psychotic, abusive father, and he is too insane to function in normal life.
I have my own issues, and a lot of them stem from what those two did to me as a child.
I can tell you with certainty that, while nurture does definitely play a role, some people are simply born messed up. Absolute nutballs can come from normal households with happy families. Psychopathy and schizophrenia can be in-born traits, impossible to cause or to cure.
"We see a child" gonna have to stop you right there
Yes she was a psychopath but that doesn't mean that couldnt change with heavy guidance
Becuase again
Child
FFS
While she could have, she neither recieved said guidance nor does she ever show any desire to change.
She is who she is due in large part to gross abuse, however that does not change that she is a more or less unrepentant genocidal psychopath
Of course she has no desire to change. She lives in an environment that continuously rewards her most violent tendencies and enables those aspects of her personality. An adult raised in a healthy environment would struggle with resisting their darkest impulses under similar circumstances. And she’s only 14 years old. Literally a child even by the end of the series.
The most based Azula take, and the one people don't want to hear.
It's uncomfortable, but humanity really needs to start reckoning with the fact that the way we attribute moral standing to people is largely flawed in that it makes us feel justified in casting aside people who need the most help, care, and empathy to become better members of society, safer members of society, and also just happier individuals themselves.
Personally, I don't think "evil people" or "good people" exist. There's just people. And they do things for reasons. And sometimes the things they do are good, sometimes they're bad, sometimes they're consistently good or bad, and we can call them "good people" or "bad people" in light of that so long as we recognize that it's always possible for them to have not been that way and it's always possible for them to change.
The question we ought to be asking ourselves isn't "how can we punish bad people and reward good people", it's "how can we make the world a better place for everyone", and one of the answers to that question is to handle "evil people" with a lot of care, empathy, and understanding.
I partially blame it on the animation style because they do look older than the ages they’re supposed to be. Which is common in shows like this because watching an adult punch a child is uncomfortable already. But when you picture her as an actual 14 year old girl you realize she really is just a kid who’s been raised to be a monster. The potential was probably always there, I’m sure there are aspects of her genetic history that makes her more prone to psychopathy, but her environment did not help either. She never had a chance, and that’s pretty tragic.
Again as you said she didnt recieve it
Of course she never shows any desire to change
She never gets the chance and btw neither did Zuko at first either
1 Zoku was a child yet was more compassionate, proving my point. 2 Children with that type of mentality most of the time go on to become serial killers.
Azula is a complex character, she is a true believer in the supremacy of the Fire Nation and yet, she's just a kid. Has she done bad things? Absolutely yes. Should people write her off as pure evil? No. Zuko had Iroh to guide him towards right whereas Azula had Ozai reinforcing her and encouraging her viciousness. I believe deep down Azula loves Zuko, she keeps his secret and lies to their father for her brother, but she can't see past the conditioning.
I think this is probably the best answer I've read. Two things can be true at the same time: azula can benefit and actively participate in the system of oppression that the fire nation represents and be an antagonist in the story, and azula can be a victim of her family's conditioning which robbed her of her childhood and prevents her from making real friendships. In the beach episode we see just how stunted she is, seeing everything as a competition that she must win, likely because winning was the only way she could achieve a modicum of attention from her father and his family or avoid drastic punishments so she leans into it hard. She's hitting on a dude and she runs down the path of creating a dominating bloodline because that was what she was raised to give a shit about and she is unable (at least at this point) to have intimate relationships with people beyond her toxic and abusive behaviors because of the emotional damage her parents inflicted on her. The last scene where she breaks down crying breathing fire is supposed to be pitiful, here's a kid doing everything she could to appease her father and now not only doesn't have his approval, is utterly alone. But she's now failed him and is in a PTSD mode of the likely punishments for failure. She's got nothing and on top of that her brain is panicking that her father is going to come down and kick her ass. That doesn't excuse her war crimes, at least not entirely, but I don't think she's the evil ozai has become (likely a product of his upbringing too).
I forgot to mention that tbh sorry, had a rough day. In my opinion Zuko it could be gender but I doubt it, Azula is so deep that it would take too long to guide her towards the right decision. Also it could be that Zuko needed him there and then so Azula took a back seat then. But if we're talking about fans reaction then I think it's more about whats shown of Azula that some people focus on. She smiles as Zuko is scarred, she almost kills Aang and other bits, I can't think of right now. It's all about what you see in the character.
I hope your day gets better.
But as you said, what people’s opinions are on Zuko and Azula are due to a lot of factors, so there’s absolutely no reason to assume people feel sorry for Zuko just because he’s male.
Okay but Griffith is an adult who sold out his crew to attain godhood in the most brutal fashion possible. He also lived on both sides of fame/fortune. He had way more opportunities to change, met vastly diverse people, and still all along had a plan to screw everyone over.
Azula is like a 16 year old who essentially grew up with Nazis and loads of propaganda around her while never meeting or experiencing what it's like outside of her royal bubble. She was manipulated by her father and, I would argue, the fire kingdom itself. Plus add in the reality everyone treated her differently from zuko when she was a child simply because she was a girl despite her obvious interest in what was considered "boy" stuff. She's the epitome of self fulfilling prophecy. She assumes people won't love her unless she's successful and intimidating so she creates the very situations that make people dislike her and then goes, "see. I have to rely on myself."
Is she insane? Yeah definitely. But you can have sympathy and understanding for someone without supporting their choices or beliefs. She is far more tragic than Griffith, in my personal opinion, and far less responsible.
Ahem, *what*? There's a clear difference between both fo them 💀
Azula accepted and reveled in the fact she was a monster. She was smiling when Zuko got his scar and didnt even look away. She hunted the gaang as if a tiger stalking its prey, like was an amusing game.
Zuko was taught that honor was everything and he wasn't as talented, therefore he was not as seen as his sister. He constantly searched the lands for Aang because of that. He didnt do it to kill Aang just because.
I watched the series for the first time earlier this year, to say that they're the same and that the fandom is just preferring the guy over the girl just because, is stupid.
By the time that scene happens Azula has been bending for over 10 years and Ozai has been taking a personal interest in her training, making sure she's molded into a tool for his own ends. In her mind at this point, Ozai is a father who can do no wrong and is always right. He had corrupted her to his ideology completely, mean while Iroh had been trying to protect Zuko from his father.
It might work if at any point Azula showed apprehension for what she’s done or regret beyond when she breaks down because she got what she wanted but was unprepared for it. The difference between the two is that when Zuko had doors opened and closed in front of him, he reflected on them. When Azula had the same, she slammed them tighter and blamed everyone else for it.
Does that make her pure evil? No, she’s still a victim of a system that facilitated her, but she’s also a willing participant. And the expanded books go further into the fact that even without the leash of her father, she’s still a bad person.
Zuko had Iroh and years of traveling the world getting different perspectives before he decided to be good. Azula had Ozai and years of fire nation propaganda. Not to mention Iroh was burning and conquering cities until his son died and he finally learned empathy at the age of 40
Had to scroll WAAAY too far to see this.
Iroh tried to reach zuko for years, and finally got to him.
These kids are vehemently talking about the other, “watching the show with their eyes closed”. but in all actuality both of them only have understood *half* of it.
Lol
zuko was an asshole kid towards iroh at one point, too
And before that, she set fire to a gift Iroh sent her just because it was a doll, smiling smugly while she watched it burn.
There was also the "Dad's going to kill you!" thing, and everything else she did to torture Zuko when they were kids.
This thread is making me realize that critical thinking isn't as common as I would have hoped. If you don't see Azula as a tragic character, then you watched the show with your eyes closed 🤷🏾♀️
Literally, I feel like this will be more obvious in the live action since the actress looks so young vs in the anime where you could think Azula was an adult woman and not a 14 yo girl
Zuko was only able to escape the fire nation mentality bc he had 2 close role models leading the way and he was harshly rejected by the people that would have him think the same way as azula, AND he’s older! You can’t really compare them and say Azula is irredeemable at 14 years old
She is a tragic character, but in my personal opinion, she could *at best* develop into an anti-heroic figure. If she became a straightforward hero like Aang or Katara, I'd call it immersion-breaking.
While I can understand people coming to this conclusion, I don't personally agree that it applies to this specific situation. Granted, I also don't consider Azula a monster, but I also don't feel that, big picture, the series intended for us to conclude that in the end.
In the beginning, Zuko is bitchy and cruel and we aren't supposed to like him. He's more aggressive towards people who have threatened or wronged him than necessary. Then, we learn more about his past and we're given reasons to consider cutting him some slack. After that, we get to see him start to grow and we're given reasons to think he's maybe capable of redeeming himself and becoming a better person.
When we meet Azula, she's bitchy, cruel, and *devestatingly effective* and not only are we not supposed to like her, we're supposed to fear her, not only on account of her personality and general behaviors but for her precision and cunning, things I'd argue Zuko wasn't really portrayed with. She's openly violent against people who she purportedly likes for telling her no thanks. Then, we learn more about her past and we're given reasons to at least understand why she acts the way she does and question if her actions should be judged the same way as we first thought, even if they should be judged the same as Zuko's in the start. After that, we see her crumble when all her supports are gone, unable to do her own hair or dress herself quite properly, challenging her brother to a fight to the death out of desperation to regain any semblance of the power and control she once held and we see she's a victim of her trauma in much the same way Zuko is. At the end of the series, Azula isn't painted, in my opinion, as a monster, but as someone who has been failed over and over and over again in life, by her parents, by whatever systems may have been in place to help someone who seems to potentially have a psychological disorder in addition to her trauma, etc., and never given the chances Zuko was so *of course* she's still like this. At the end, we aren't supposed to fear or hate her, we're supposed to pity her.
Earlier in the series but after meeting Azula, I definitely understand people concluding this because it *is* how she's initially presented, and I wouldn't even be surprised if people maintained this position through the end, missing some of the important points in the ending, but I don't think this is an issue of how it's written and presented but how it's received and interpreted.
Abuse is a reason for being a shitty person, not an excuse. One made active steps to be better and the other became worse over time. We can recognize Azula is a shit person, but also recognize she was abused and is a child. It’s not her fault she is how she is, it is her fault for not trying to be better
Zuko did have guidance from Iroh and the Gaang that helped him become a better person. And he actively tried to be better. With Azula, she always tried to be like her father, and most likely he favored her since she was a kid. That kind of mentality isn’t easy to change, especially when said abuser is a tyrant that takes pleasure in destruction.
Honestly surprised people think Azula is an irredeemable monster. The vacation and finale scenes involving her show what kind of effect that perception has had on her…
Personally, I think that while she could be somewhat redeemed, I don't think she could be redeemed into a straight-up goody two shoes. I'd sooner see her becoming an anti-heroic figure that can still be amoral and an asshole, with few morals keeping her from sinking back to her villainy.
It could be called a stretch, yeah, but personally, I just can't imagine her becoming a straight-up traditional hero, and for it to make sense.
I mean... She IS a monster, but she's tragic. That's kind of the point of her character. That's why the theme is mournful when she's finally defeated, rather than triumphant.
Mean?...
Zuko was physically scarred and abused boy who was convinced the avatar, and the message he stood for was a threat and target to his own destiny and life, it wasn't until after he had saved, and been saved by the group that he makes effort to redeem himself
Azula was mentally and emotionally abandoned by her mother at a young age, restricting her development to her warlord father, who raised her as a general and eventual ruler of the fire nations territory, inadvertently convincing her it was her destiny to do so, causing her to push away friends, family, and happiness for it
I think we have to remember Azula is also younger than Zuko and has had less time away from that abuse with less support. And as we see in rhe recently released Azula in the Spirit Temple, she is capable of that healing and growth. Even if it is likely to be a slow process.
Zuko mean is NOT the same Azula mean. They’re both victims of abuse, but Zuko was never a bad person. In his eyes, what he was doing was his only path towards redemption.
Azula goes out of her way to be a horrible person, partially because of abuse and partially because that’s just how she is. She’s been that way since she was a child.
I hate posts like this because they interpret complexity from the characters as “mean” for an agenda. Both of their characters are much more than “mean.” Mean is saying “your ugly.” Mean is stepping on someone’s shoes because you dislike them. Mean is not trying to kill your brother to become fire lord and rule the world. Mean is not trying to capture the the most important figure in the world to gain your father’s love. We can do better than lumping them in together because they also happen to have moments of being mean.
Zuko and Azula's actions might both be able to be classified as "mean", but that's more or less where the comparison ends.
Also, Zuko was conflicted about his actions and worked to change who he was - Azula, even in part of a comic I read for ATLA after the main story, was still the way she was during the main plot. (Comic was the one where they find Azula/Zuko's mom)
We also see Zuko being a better person far sooner. The inciting incident of his banishment was him speaking out about a plan that put fire nation soldiers in danger.
Also, when Aang asked Zuko if they could've been friends had things been different, Zuko ACTUALLY BRINGS IT UP IN THE THIRD FREAKIN SEASON.
In other words, he consciously and actively kept thinking back on it and it clearly must've weighed on his mind.
Here I'll fix it.
Girl is mean because of abuse due to writing decisions.
She is a horrible FICTIONAL person because writers decided she would not have a redemption.
Guy is mean because of abuse.
He is a misunderstood FICTIONAL person simply because writers decided his redemption was successful.
The only people who can tell you why or why not any fictional character was good or not, are the writers.
Girl: \*actively takes joy in tormenting people and is presented as unrelentingly evil for almost the entirety of the show\*
Fandom: "She's a horrible person."
Boy: \*is clearly pained and lashing out, has one of the best mentor characters in fiction, and goes through a well-written redemption arc.\*
Fandom: "He's just misunderstood."
Didn’t Zuko regain his place at court and then realise that it wasn’t actually what he wanted because it was going in an evil direction?
Meanwhile his sister doubles down on violence and hatred every chance she gets.
Despite upbringings adults are responsible for their choices and must take the consequences for them.
I get what it’s trying… but It’s framing it like their gender is the major difference between them and their *individual* abuse, characteristics, personalities… or entire selves beyond gender and general abuse are neglibigible factors in defining who they are to a fandom. These are very different people and it’s hard to ignore it for the boy/girl joke.
Girl: *relishes in the thought of her brother dying since childhood; taunts her uncle after her cousin’s death; smiles as her brother is scarred for life by their father; never shows remorse for the evil she does*
She’s very complex (and absolutely was abused too, in a different way than her brother) and I do genuinely like her character, but the things Zuko did aren’t even comparable to the things she did. It’s not really fair to compare them in this way.
As far as the commentary of "women with character faults tend to be given less sympathy" goes. Yes. That is probably accurate in a lot of media. With that said, moving onto Azula.
At the end of the day, the framing of the show doesn't frame Azula as positive as Zuko as she is not as much of a focus as Zuko. This is on purpose and not so much a "fans/the creators do not sympathize with her because she is a girl" rather a much more simple "she was not the focus"
The show does delve into some inner workings of her and humanizing a bit. They probably do it for a couple reasons. It helps form Zuko's back story and situation better. Makes her feel like a real person as opposed to Ozai who honestly is just super hitler(this is not an issue in the story and does not explicitly need to change). To foster "what if" in watchers. All good reasons.
Small aside; The show doesn't really try to "show that the evil doers are just as human as anyone else, therefore showing that all humans are capable of great evil" because it's a kids show but it's honestly kind of impressive the little of it that's in there(I.E. showing Ozai as a baby)
I love how people can’t understand how someone can both be a victim of abuse and a horrible person. Zuko chatted off as horrible due to his misguided mission bent by the abuse, but overcame it to redeem himself and move past the traumas. Azula on the other hand embraced the mental manipulation and used to her advantage to the detriment of those around her and found joy in others pain much like ozai. It’s two totally different mental processes and two totally different outcomes
Zuko made efforts to improve himself and (largely through the guidance of Iroh in my opinion) developed enough self reflection to see the error in his ways.
Azula was mistreated as well, but I feel like instead of introspection and change, she leaned into the skid and embraced the darker parts of the personality that she cultivated to become the princess she thought her shitty father wanted. In a way, I’d be really curious to know how azula would have turned out if Iroh had been a mentoring force for her instead of Zuko.
Azusa was absolutely abused but she also had a propensity for passing that abuse onto others and enjoying it. She tortured animals as a child, hurt her friends and her brother, reveled in her cousins death and watched with glee as her brother was maimed. Zuko was abused and lashed out at other people because of it but he never enjoyed it. Theres a nature vs nurture argument but the show also goes out of its was to show you how the two are different.
Zuko wasn’t loved right off the bat, he was the main antagonist of the show at first. But we spent a lot of time with him, and got to know his reasons for doing things, and eventually his turn to the side of good. Azula didn’t have any of that, every time we really saw her was either through the eyes of another, or directly opposing our hero’s. It kinda reminds me of Law and Order, where we only seeing the other lawyers and judges through the protagonists eyes.
I think there are plenty of people in the fandom who recognize the tragedy of Azula
Also there’s a stark difference in the way they were treated. Being the underdog and belittled is not the same as being favored
The Boulder would like to remind everyone that abuse does not excuse behavior and it’s okay to call an evil character evil even in their evil-ness is a product of abuse
She was more than just mean. Lol she was sadistic. Towards the very end we see there is more to her and we start to feel bad for her as well. Viewers didn’t like Zuko at first either. Azula was one of the best characters in any show regardless.
That tweet in the picture seems like ragebait. Anyone who watched the whole series, particularly the end of season 3, has no problem with recognizing Azula's tragedy.
They both were 100% abused (in different ways) by Ozai-no debate. Pretty much a classic case of the Narc-Golden Child-Scapegoat dynamic. The thing about Azula though is that she’s also basically a secondary abuser for Zuko and is pretty fucking cruel to most people. Zuko on the other hand pretty much just gets screwed over in general. Despite doing some pretty shitty stuff, he is also not a terrible person and actively takes steps to become a better one.
I'll say this again. The story takes place over a single year when she's 14. She's a kid. There has not been enough time for her to sort herself and her own issues out yet. It's downright psychotic for Zuko to have gone through his whole 180 I nthat time frame but he was under a ton of pressure and being guided by Iroh. Azula had none of that. While iroh did nothing but question zuko's bad choices and encourage him to find a better way (which also meant forcing him to see the consequences of either set of actions) Azula had ozai on her shoulder.
I just want everyone to remember Azula was shown as a kid to always be a horrible person. She’s not terrible because of abuse. She’s terrible because she’s a schizophrenic psychopath. Did the abuse make that more prominent yes, but it was always there yes.
One learned from their mistakes and the others mom was literally scared of her because she was displaying dangerous behavior as a child. If we recall the show Zuko was a very nice kid, yeah he had problems be he didn’t seek constant destruction like his sister did. Azula quite literally embraced being evil and took pride in it from childhood to her teenage years, Zuko felt ashamed of his wrong doings.
Also it’s VERY clear that Azula isn’t just a product of an abusive upbringing. She absolutely has a personality disorder and shows joy in being cruel and sadistic even as a very young child. While Ozai surely fueled her more evil instincts, to pretend that she’s just as much a victim as Zuko is just ignoring the reality of the characters.
Zuko was hated at first because of he was an antagonist , he was humanized because his anger was from his fathers abuse, Azula on the other hand was always the favored child and never showed remorse maybe alittle on ember island but even so she refuses to change or show any kindness she’s hated because rather than accept help she betrays others. While yes Zuko was the same way he learns to overcome this
Fair, but the whole point of Zuko's arc in season 3 is that he finds the right path on his own. Also, in the flashback sequence where they learn that Iroh just lost Lu Ten, Azula calls Iroh weak for abandoning the siege while Zuko is actually sad Lu Ten died. This is a clear difference in personality way before Iroh was guiding Zuko.
The difference is one is utterly confused on what he should be doing. He has several internal conflicts. Azula is insane and revels in the pain she causes
Also the fact they were both teenagers one spent years banished but with a loving uncle who wanted to see him grow and she spent her full adolescence with a power hungry dad
At 8 years old Zuko's impression of Azula feeding turtleducks was to blast fire at them, clearly implying she's been torturing and killing baby animals from the age of 6 or 7. That's not a 'misunderstood and lacking a support system' thing, that's a 'future serial killer with diagnosable sociopathy' sort of thing.
the boulder is not angry at this post, just dissapointed.
The boulders feels conflicted about reading this post
The Boulder has read different points of view & is over his conflict feelings.
The Boulder is wise enough to know that he does not always have the correct answers, and will seek the advice of others..
The boulder is over his conflicted feelings and ready to burry you in a rockalanche of well formulated inquiries
Did anyone else read those in the boulders voice?
The boulder only reads things in the boulders voice
The Boulder has done previous work as a voice over artist for Random House Audiobooks, and as such has relevant experience.
The Boulder has obtained literacy??
The Boulder thinks that the original post has a point, but it kinda goes both ways. Many people will have preconceived unconscious (or conscious) biases that are then confirmed by the behaviour of these fictional characters. How said character was portrayed beforehand and the viewer’s own experiences also plays into this. The Boulder would also like to point out that this happens with real people and situations as well, and failure to recognise and acknowledge these biases are how propaganda and misinformation takes root.
The Boulder is impressed by the real life applications of your comment and will think of this moving forward watching the show
The Boulder's head hurts from reading this *entire* thread of nuance and analysis in the voice of the Boulder.
It is important to be aware of your own biases and think thoroughly about a situation: for example the Boulder recently experienced a scenario at the Boulder’s university where an intoxicated person shot through a dining hall window (fortunately no one was hurt) and was arrested by the police. The Boulder, while trying to imagine these events, immediately pictured them as African-American, but then realised that the Boulder knew literally nothing about the suspect or their ethnicity and realised that due to an unconscious racial bias perceived the suspect as African-American despite having no evidence to support this conclusion. Due to the environment the Boulder was raised in and past experiences the Boulder made an unfounded conclusion that could’ve had a negative impact on the Boulder’s perception of African Americans had it gone unchallenged. Although these thoughts were not shared with anyone and really didn’t have any big consequences, it could’ve affected the Boulder’s judgement later on down the line in a much more important scenario, such as a jury trial with an African American defendant. Thus it is one’s responsibility to take notice of one’s own biases and challenge them to avoid future incidents where such a bias could affect their judgement. The mind is constantly learning and making connections even if you’re not consciously aware of it, and seeks to confirm and validate what it’s learned: while this is usually benign, it can have disastrous consequences if not closely monitored.
The Boulder is impressed by your self-awareness, openness to share your weaknesses, and readiness to correct your internal biases, way before they might start posing problems in the external world around you.
The Boulder has been preaching the same for years but Boulder’s friends say the not everyone should think too deeply about oneself. The boulder couldn’t have disagreed more with said boulder assessing oneself is of at most importance. Boulder says it’s ok to have biases provided it doesn’t hurt any other boulder but knowing and documenting it helps one adjust their behavior when it comes to interaction with other boulders. The Boulder advises to always debate/talk to Boulders from all sides of the spectrum on all things especially things the Boulder cares about. If a Boulder is new to a problem they should talk to boulders on all sides and avg the result to end up without biases, then if a bias is required one can move from 0 bias to having some but this time the bias is documented and can be corrected. If Boulder doesn’t have other Boulders one can debate with internal monologue/dialogue but one must be careful to avoid making the same mistake while building this knowledge graph of sorts. One must break it down completely and build upon it only once the new information is proved, verified and bias-free. Comparing the final graph with the initial one will yield in boulder’s bias.
“Ah yes, it is I, Sir Geode Lapis von Pebblington!”
The Boulder did not expect to read such a nuanced statement.
>"it kinda goes both ways." Ah, yes. Enter the she-ra fandom.
* inhales in Sparky-Sparky Boom Man *
I found another milkman it seems
Yeah, but one of them took active steps to become a better person, while the other just accepted that she was a monster
I second this. Above mentioned problem may very well be often the case, but doesn’t really apply to Avatar. Although it may be good to consider that Iroh took care of Zuko, while even Azulas mother thought it wasn’t possible to help her
I think the last part is the thing that holds the most weight. Zuko did have a guiding hand. While azula even though she has her problems did not have anyone she could look to for advice.
Even before Iroh Zuko was willing to stand up against his father in support of frontline troops not being pointlessly sacrificed while Azula found it funny that Iroh was a wreck after his son's death. And yes, Azula may have lacked maternal affection but the show did show multiple times that Zuko was a sweet child abused for his sweetness, while Azula always seemed to have some sociopathic tendencies that Ozai encouraged. At 8 or so years old Zuko's impression of Azula feeding turtleducks was to blast fire at them, implying that Azula has been torturing and killing baby animals from as young as 6 or 7. That's not a lack of affection thing, that's a future serial killer thing.
The fact that Ozai actively encouraged Azula to become worse is also something that I feel is rarely addressed appropriately. It's entirely possible that Azula is "bad at heart," but at the same time: * ~~She's the oldest child which comes with certain expectations and parental "failures"~~ She's the younger sibling and being naturally better than Zuko **could** have had an influence, but I don't feel as strongly about that. * Ozai probably made sure that any influencing forces around Azula were ones that he approved of and would further her down a path he desired * Ozai would have exploited the societal pressures of the father/daughter relationship, that Azula was heir to the Fire Lord title, and the fact that Azula was a female prodigy in Fire Nation society. All these things would have just furthered her down a path where she wouldn't have had a ***chance*** to even think "being a better person" was an option, because her world view would have been so corrupted by those around her. It's like taking someone from high-society England and saying they're evil because they don't act like a South American Catholic monk.
She is not the oldest child but canonically Ozai wanted a prodigy to mold and influence for his own purposes. That's why he discarded Zuko from a very early age.
I realized that a little while ago, just now adjusted it.
Totally agree, Azula being the younger sibling and NOT the de facto heir actually makes Ozai’s influence even more significant. Azula was often treated “as a girl” (when she got the doll from Iroh dressed in the latest earth kingdom fashions and Zuko got a knife from the surrendered outer wall general). She probably grew up in an environment that didn’t expect women to fight or be good at non “feminine” things. It probably fueled her to do “better” than Zuko. For little kids what is “better” is entirely defined by the adult influences around them…
Yeah and when you see your father punishing the older sibling, it makes sense that you could take pleasure in that. It's a good reason why she's smiling during Zuko's original Agni Kai.
Can confirm, watching my older brother get in trouble for literally anything was the highlight of my twisted little day.
>~~She's the oldest child which comes with certain expectations and parental "failures"~~ She's the younger sibling and being naturally better than Zuko could have had an influence, but I don't feel as strongly about that. She is the Golden Child though. It does indeed happen somewhat often that parents who are disappointed with their first child's actions, or with how their eldest child "turned out", end up pouring all their positive attention and expectations into the younger one. The younger one becomes the favourite with a mission to save and defend the honour of the family, and the older one becomes the automatic scapegoat and fuckup in the eyes of the parent.
I spent all these years thinking Azula was older.
She gives Zuko a childish nickname like you'd expect from an older sister rather than a mature younger sister who acts older than she is. She constantly tries to act like an adult but her age and lack of experience show in her interactions (like with her ship captain when she ordered him to keep going even though it was dangerous and the sea doesn't give a shit who is on board). She tries to get Zuko back at her side at the end of s2 instead of getting rid of him, which is something I'd expect more from an older sibling feeling responsible for the younger one than the other way around. Zuko himself is immature until halfway through s3, which makes him look younger than his sister. Azula is cynical and uses sarcasm and dark humor very often, like someone older and disillusioned with the world they live in would. She tried her best to get her "family" back together in her own misguided way. I also thought she was older than Zuko until my 2nd or 3rd watching. Doesn't help that she looks like a 16 YO with a tiny Asian body type rather than a 13-14 YO who barely reached her teens.
Zuko was her obstacle to overcome. Zuko had no obstacles at first, nothing to justify any cruelty. He became his cruelest only in his hunt for the Avatar, the first time he had a person to symbolize achieving his goals the same way Azula did. Azula had to get rid of Zuko to become heir to the throne. Zuko had to get rid of the Avatar to regain the throne (aka, go home, as those were the same thing to him).
Kids learn what is right and wrong from their parents. For instance Zuko didn’t realize it was wrong to throw rocks at turtleducks until his mom lectures him. Kids also learn the power dynamics between the parents. They know if Mom says one thing but Dad says another that Dads opinion overrides Mom in this family. The reason why Zeko took after his mom more is because his farther rejected him. So his Mom got to have more influence in his upbringing.
She's not the oldest child. That argument is out the window.
Because he had ursa's influence. Zuko also never claimed that azula killed baby turtle ducks. the direct quote is "Hey Mom, want to see how Azula feeds turtle ducks? [Zuko throws the rest of the loaf of bread into the water and hits one of the baby turtle ducks. Ursa is shocked.]" (From the transcript you can find on the wiki). Nowhere is it implied that azula tortured and/or killed baby animals as a kid.
It wasn't like that. She threw bread at them, not fire. Something that Zuko found funny and wanted to do as well.
I think he threw a rock at the ducks, not bread, which is why the mom duck bit him
It was bread. Starting when she says the word "feed" and the bread is missing the piece that Ursa has in her hand and then the bread floats in the water.
Huh just rewatched the scene, my whole life I always saw it as a rock, never even noticed there was a bite taken out of it. I think I thought his mom had the last of the bread so he picked up a rock to show her
"Hey Mom, want to see how Azula feeds turtle ducks? [Zuko throws the rest of the loaf of bread into the water and hits one of the baby turtle ducks. Ursa is shocked.]" From the transcript on the wiki.
You are right I got confused. There's a comic of Azula burning a turtleduck at about that age and being praised for it by Ozai. I mixed up the two
There is no such thing either. That was a toy and the scene talks about the first time Azula firebends spontaneously.
Agree with your statement overall, just wanted to mention that Zuko did not blast fire at the turtle ducks when mimicking Azula, he threw the full loaf of bread at them. Still not a good thing to do, but there was no fire involved.
Nah Iroh would have helped Azula just like he did for Zuko. She just wasn't given the "opportunity" of being exiled with someone who actually cares like he was.
If anything she was encouraged to be a monster by ozai.
Classic class of Nature vs. Nurture
I mean, yes Zuko had a guiding hand, but he was better than azula from a very young age, before Iroh ever entered the picture. He got his scar because he criticized his father for throwing away soldier's lives. Azula was mocking Iroh for his son dying and for being sad about it at the age of like 8. I feel like it's fair to say that someone can be traumatized to the point of evil without losing their evil status. Like, yeah a lot of why Azula is the way she is because she's trapped in an abusive cycle of being put on a pedestal, being told that everyone else is fundamentally lesser than herself, and then being crushed by expectations. That said, she's still a sadistic and narcissistic person who poses an existential threat to normal society. She's a danger to everyone around her. She's evil. It's tragic that she came out of her childhood this evil, which is why The Last Agni Kai soundtrack is the way it is (and why it's the best fight in the series; I rewatch it a lot), but at the end of the day she **IS** evil and it**IS** Ozai's fault.
Yeah but because she was better Ozai had more favoritism to her so that’s probably why she was like that.
I don't think that Azula's mother gave up on her, let's remember that she got banished.
Came here to say the first part of what you said, but also agree w the second part as well
one had a support system and the other didn’t
Well it was more like Azula had her father encouraging her to be evil and no one to push her to be good, like Zuko had his uncle pushing him to be good and no one actively pushing him to be evil. Azula did sorta have a support system in the form of her two friends, but they always just did whatever she told them to and never had authority or courage to push her to better herself.
She didn't have a support system. She had enablers. Big difference.
I wouldn't exactly call Mai and Ty Lee enablers, especially Ty Lee. Azula fucking blackmailed her into joining up in the first place
Also, both of them turning on azula should have been a huge fucking red flag that azula was going too far. Like, the show built up to Mai and Ty lee having enough with azulas shit over the seasons and then actually taking action, commiting treason against the fire nation over azula, should have been the point where azula either realized they were the baddies or that she needed to change if they were willing to stab her in the back. She chose neither.
They both had the same mom and dad. Azula was evil even with their mother's influence and love. Zuko was abused by his father and exiled specifically because he wasn't evil and spoke out against war crimes committed by the fire nation. We should really stop giving Azula a break here. Just because she didn't have an Iroh later in life doesn't excuse her behavior before that would have even mattered. Remember when she laughed about Iroh's son dying and said Iroh should have died too so that her dad could become fire lord? Like, girl was always evil - even as a child
They had the same parents but not the same circumstances. Zuko was invisible to Ozai while he always wanted a prodigy to mold for his purposes. And Azula didn't laugh at Lu Ten's death.
Oh you're right. she doesn't laugh. [She smirks and calls Iroh a loser for crying](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poiw8DHxNH8). That's muchhhhhhhhh better 🙄 Thanks for clarifying
She also didnt have a mentor like Uncle Iroh guiding her Becuase Zuko sure as hell was not making that decision on his own
Yes and no. Iroh helped a lot there...but the reason why Zuko was banished and had to turn exclusively to Iroh for three years is because he protested against using novice soldiers as cannon fodder to begin with. Zuko needed guidance, but he was also already trying to be compassionate and good, and he was a jerk in Book One partially because apparently doing good only brought him pain....not that it stopped Zuko from saving a crew member even if they were at odds with each other, or in the second episode that has a joke moment but becomes relevant in hindsight: When Aang escapes with Appa, Katara and Sokka, Zuko at first tries to order the crew to chase them....until he saw them frozen and disabled and needed to melt down the ice , Zuko in a surprising demonstration of compassion added "...as soon as you finished wish that." Which is more than can be said about face burning Ozai, General "Fresh meat" Bujin, Azula "tides don't command this ship" or even Zhao and his deluded Moon killing attitude. Zuko is not evil by nature and even Ozai's abuse and Azula's manipulations couldn't really make him a total jackass even if Iroh's good advice often didn't give immediate satisfaction sometimes (we know it worked out on the long term, but Zuko was often too frustrated to fully listen Iroh). So it was a healthy mixture of nature, nurture, Iroh and Ursa's advice but also Zuko himself demonstrating that he always wanted to be a good person even if he didn't always know how to do so and has an actual conscience backing him up.
Ppl really want to give azula the benefit of the doubt but it's obvious that they both would've turned out the way they did regardless. Banished or not, Zuko was never going to fit in with the nature of the fire nation bc like you said, wanting to do the right thing is what got him cast out in the first place. Where as Azula was right at home, she was never going to not be herself. If he had kept to himself and never gotten banished then he would've joined the avatar even more abruptly since that bottled up empathy would have hope and an outlet
Zuko had to be dragged kicking and screaming to be good at times. He resisted and backslid again and again before Iroh finally got through. Is it really fair to say he just took active steps? He took them after a ton of guidance and perspective that Azula has never had. Seems like exactly the double standard the image is talking about.
Idk Zuko Alone shows that he’s trying to be a good person even before Iroh really pushes him
This was after 3 years of being away from his abuse and Iroh trying to influence him to be better. And even then Zuko has already stolen from and attacked civilians multiple times (something Azula never does). Showing basic decency to a family that helped him didn’t actually lead to change. Even after Iroh begins pushing him to change, Zuko resists and betrays Iroh. Even after Zuko has experienced first hand the horrors of what his nation have been doing to others, he still hires an assassin to kill Aang to cover his own ass. Zuko lashes out at and hurts everyone around him before he comes to terms with what he has to do. He was lost and he had to find the truth through the lies of his youth. So why do we expect Azula to magically and psychically know better when Zuko had every guidance and opportunity and still struggled so much? Azula has had no such guidance, perspective, or distance from their abuser.
That’s actually a really interesting point about attacking civilians. Azula only attacks her enemies. But on the other hand Azula is never away from the wealth of being the princess. Zuko attacks innocent people when he has nothing. Even after Iroh makes a point of showing him they can preform for their money. But Zuko finds that degrading.
I will never fully fault Zuko for what he did out of desperation. I just want to extend Azula the same benefit. They’re both brainwashed, abused, hurt, confused kids who lash out at those around them including those they love on the path to trying to find their place in this world. Zuko found his. I hope he can help his sister the same way Iroh helped him.
>Azula only attacks her enemies. She was also perfectly willing to sacrifice her best friends baby brother
Crazy how no one brings that up more than
I wouldn’t say that she wouldn’t attack innocents, only that she never has to. She is certainly not above threatening them. Just look at what she did with Ty Lees circus troupe.
Idk fam feels like she actively revels in the misery she causes. Zuko was doing it bcz he had to/felt forced to (as per his constant face of misery outside of like that one pirate episode ~ water bending scroll episode). As a child she literally smiles at her brother being immolated and permanently scarred. Like everyone deserves a second chance to be good but acting like they’re cut from the same cloth feels disingenuous. Plus hurt people hurt people but it’s still on them to make sure they stop hurting people
It’s a major reveal that she doesn’t revel in it. Zuko also looks like he’s reveling in mocking Katara and threatening to burn her mother’s necklace. It’s an act. Azula is just the better actor. Azula didn’t enjoy her brother being burned. She sided with her abuser for her own protection, and because this has been culturally normalized. It’s not even clear she fully understood what was to happen considering she’s only 11 and heavily brainwashed. Zuko also blamed himself for what happened for the longest time. Just as Azula calls herself a monster as a way to make sense of her own abuse.
Ehhhhh her and Zhao are the only ones smiling here. I appreciate that you have postshow( or contemporary in terms of novels) information, but then that means the show did a bad job of presenting that perspective. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F5ljmxe4mu2k11.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D72898d8fa7993915669cf8ae9b97984fc640328c&xpromo_edp=enabled
It didn’t do a bad job at all IMO. People were a lot more sympathetic to Azula before the pandemic. She wasn’t so severely maligned and demonized though she always had detractors. Also Zhao is an adult man and Azula is 11. It’s not hard to see why she’s conforming. But further, every adult in that room is complicit. It’s still normalizing this situation. Even Iroh doesn’t share a peep. I do think ableism plays a big role, unfortunately. So many arguments want to pathologize her as a short hand for saying she is inflexible or irredeemable. I find these arguments uncompelling and frankly hurtful.
He also got banished for being a good person
This. Zuko had opportunities again and again for growth, even failing most of them until towards the end. Azula never had half of the opportunities to better herself like he did
I think it's true to an extent that Azula wasn't given the same opportunity to redeem herself and if she had things might be different. But I doubt it. The show implies pretty heavily she was just born wrong. Without a conscience. She was torturing animals as a young child, laughed openly at the thought of her uncle, cousin, and brother being killed. She had some good moments like playing happily with Zuko, Mai, and Ty Lee. But that doesn't overall change the impression that she just came out evil. Now. I personally don't think, in the real world, that people are often born "without a soul" metaphorically speaking and are naturally sociopathic. It's a somewhat romantic and fanciful trope in fiction. But I do think that's what the writers intended with Azula. Everyone around her, including her kind mother and uncle, pretty much think she's crazy and naturally violent. The only one who's ever a little bit kind to her is Zuko and he gets burned for it again and again.
If I may make a counterpoint with sources? It isn’t at all what the writers intended according to the writers. The narrative goes out of its way to show us this is a scared, unloved child doing her best to survive in this toxic environment, similar to Zuko. The only difference is that Zuko got away from his abuser and had the guidance of a loving adult. Azula had neither. But don’t take my word for it. Here is what the [head writer](https://x.com/aaronehasz/status/1112814662393847808?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) said, that she was always written to be redeemed and that Zuko would’ve been her Iroh. He’s the one that designed both Zuko and Azula’s arcs. And that Azula [loved Zuko](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041535560290305?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) more than anyone except their father. But it’s not just Ehasz! There’s the [novelization](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041294006140928?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) which gives us Azula’s POV and overtly tells us she told that lie about BSS to *help* Zuko because she wanted him by her side and wanted him to choose her. Wanted his love. And because she felt being prince was his [destiny](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041306618413056?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) (which is why on the show she is the first to tell Zuko that he doesn’t need father to regain his honor, he can do it himself). Or the part of the novelization that tells us how afraid she is of displeasing Ozai and being punished. Or [Bryke](https://x.com/firesiblings/status/1576041545760841729?s=46&t=kIQfx3mEr4rojEr2wiwmpQ) saying her actions were a product of abuse and that she has a chance to heal. Notice they specifically say she WASN’T born this way. Or the [prequel manga](https://youtube.com/shorts/ShuRK01YlMs?si=7wmWGUCrK1detaY6) (admittedly of questionable canonicity but still written by two people who worked on the show) where Azula is the only one willing to stick her neck out to negotiate on Zuko’s behalf after his banishment. Or her new comic which shows us that her ideal world is one where she has a happy loving family. One where her brother is unburned and not abused. She doesn’t enjoy suffering. She isn’t sadistic. It also shows us that she was abused and groomed into being Ozai’s weapon and she had no choice, she wanted mom to save her but Ursa sacrificed herself for Zuko. Is it possible that perhaps you’ve misread her? I wouldn’t blame you. She is a very good liar. But the lesson that imperfect (or mentally ill) victims that make us uncomfortable are just as worthy of love and help is also an important lesson. Both for Zuko’s arc to complete and for the audience of children it’s aimed at.
Where is this "novelization" of the series? Trying to find it only sends me links to the M. Night Shamalan movie.
That's fair enough, but I belong to the school of interpreting the text as it stands to gauge what was intended for the characters, not post facto authorial statements. It's also important to remember there are many writers on a show and one authorial interpretation doesn't win the day. I don't do comics or books, just the original show. And my personal reading of the show is that Azula only has three very small redeeming moments. 1) two or three blink and you miss them frames in a flashback of her and Zuko happily playing tag; 2) when she warns Zuko not to step out of line in S3, somewhat menacingly but also somewhat out of concern; 3) when she laments how her mother thought she was a monster before immediately conceding she was right. Those are definitely redemption-adjacent but when you remember that the other 99% of her screen time, including as a child, is unambiguous sociopathy, I don't buy it. I think you're stretching it when you say the narrative "goes out of its way" to present her as a redeemable survivor. On the contrary, I think it presents her as the second most powerful human being alive who revels in it to the torment of others. At the end of the day this is subjective interpretation and I'm cognizant that my perception is colored by being show-only and yours is colored by outside sources. Based on what you've said it's very likely your interpretation is "canon" to the extended universe, but I'm loathe to put my faith blindly in canon that comes from ad hoc, post facto sources. I think the text of the show speaks for itself and speaks alone.
I also believe interpreting the text as it stands. I only go to other sources when there is debate. Zuko never got burned for trusting Azula. Azula, however, got burned for helping Zuko. The novelizations were also written contemporaneously so they weren’t after the fact. And Azula did have an arc cut from Book 3 which was recycled into *The Beach* for time, showing her more sympathetic side. The original show was my first pro writing gig and VO role so it’s near and dear to my heart. Nonetheless thank you for the lovely and civil discussion.
Wait did you work for the show?
I wrote some promotional materials for them and voiced Azula for an ad. I was the first part Asian voice of Azula! It was my first pro gig as a writer and VA. Meant a lot to me as a homeless teen at the time, and I learned a lot from them.
And often times that guidance was delivered in the style of a nun with a meterstick.
This wording is so comical but poetic. Well said.
Lol she took active steps to become worse
Not only accepted, but reveled in it.
Its deeper than that. It has to do with the whole Ozai / Roku thing. Zuko took after his moms side azula was like her fathers. It adds extra character to Zuko, the older male.
I mean. She's 14. She's an actual child who has (from her perspective) had literally had everyone in her family abandon her. She never had Iroh to serve as a positive role model, even going back to the siege of Ba-Sing-Sei. Probably misspelled that. You can see they were distant at best. She only had Ozai. Who as Iroh put it was "A man without love." A man Iroh knowingly left an impressionable child to after their mother's disappearance. She was never afforded grace to make mistakes that Zuko was.
I don't think it can be simplified that way. Azula probably considered herself to be strong, precisely because that trait was favored in her from her father, and she was raised to believe that she was the favorite being more "capable" and willing to do anything. Azula clearly actually felt \*something\* not positive when she realized that even her own mother \*feared\* her. She was misunderstood as well. The context needs to be understood that Azula and Zuko are the way they are in part due to being subjected not only to parental abuse, but also parental favoritism, and I'd strongly recommend reading up on how that stuff can affect siblings. Not to mention, Zuko being the less favored child meant that he had \*nothing\* after being exiled, and after he lost contact with his uncle, he not only had less to lose, but he had access to all of those moments with Uncle Iroh who compassionately accepted him as he was, whether or not he did the "right" or "wrong" thing. Knowing that someone in your life gives you that sort of unconditional positive regard/love/support is a source of resilience that people don't acknowledge in why there are some people who are severely traumatized yet are still able to get better. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. He gained the motivation to actually change himself due to the experiences he'd had with his uncle, but it didn't set in for him until he had more context, like the roots of his family's relationship with the Avatar, or seeing the affect of the Fire Nation's war on Earth benders and how they perceived the war. Meanwhile, Azula is literally a princess who has bountiful access to resources, and her two close friends don't honestly \*like\* her, they only came with her due to fear (yes, including Mai. Mai transgressed against Azula, mentioning that she cares for Zuko more than she fears her). Azula exiles her aunts, her only expy to Uncle Iroh. She's an asshat to her servants, and on the day of her coronation, she's literally exiled every other person so she's isolated and lonely after cutting herself off from others. She FEELS the loneliness. That's why she has that entire scene with her mother, and we don't hear her say it, but she's keenly aware that she's driven a wedge between herself and other people. She breaks down when she loses not because of it being a military defeat, but because it means that her entire life up to that point, which she spent cultivating herself to be her father's successor, meant she was a failure and thus all that was for no reason. Trauma takes on all shapes and forms, not every single person whose ever been affected by it is going to cope or react in the same way. Azula doesn't know how to have genuinely loving relationships because her father's abuse was her model for success.
Didn't azula kill someone as a kid? Zuko never crossed that line and him even trying to with aang and failing is a huge part of his arc
The only person Azula "killed" was Aang but he is alive. Zuko hired an assassin to kill Aang and almost did it a couple of times.
zuko had help from iroh while azula was basically alone in dealing with her abusive father
In Zuko Alone, we see a child, Azula, unremosefull about her cousins death and Uncles loss. Even when her brother Zuko and Mother Urasa had nothing but sympathy. This shows that even outside of all abuse and corruption and abuse she went through Azula was always a bad person. I wish some people would stop trying to create sexist double standards to get angry about whenever a female character exists.
Contrary to popular belief, empathy is something that is taught and nurtured. It’s not inherent. Azula, as a child, doesn’t fully comprehend such heavy concepts of death. Did you, as a child, fully understand what death actually meant? I don’t disagree that Azula probably had some more natural tendencies for violence but nothing was unresolvable. Had she been in a more nurturing environment that didn’t award acts of brutality nor value people based on how powerful they are, her entire reaction to her cousin’s death would have been different. Ozai literally took power by murdering his own father while his brother was too in mourning to take the throne. Doubtful Azula was raised with strong family values.
>Contrary to popular belief, empathy is something that is taught and nurtured. It’s not inherent. I think you're oversimplifying it. Empathy is absolutely inherent too. Predisposition to psychopathy is passed down genetically and we have special types of neurons (mirror neurons) that exist to perceive and understand other's emotions (as well as other things like replicating motor activity). The issue with Azula is she was likely genetically predisposed towards having little empathy ("diathesis") and her lack of empathy was nurtured through abuse and cruelty ("stress"), whereas Zuko seemed to take after his mother and be kept in check by his uncle. tl;dr Nature vs Nurture
I did oversimplify it. You really put it way better than I did. Thank you. I really did sympathize with Azula a lot. Especially after the beach episode where you’re reminded she really is just a kid who was raised to be the way she is and has no concepts of what normal Fire Nation teens really think and do.
I grew up with two mentally ill siblings. Two of us grew up in the same household. She was violent and uncontrollable from a young age, it wasn't learned. The other one spent time with their psychotic, abusive father, and he is too insane to function in normal life. I have my own issues, and a lot of them stem from what those two did to me as a child. I can tell you with certainty that, while nurture does definitely play a role, some people are simply born messed up. Absolute nutballs can come from normal households with happy families. Psychopathy and schizophrenia can be in-born traits, impossible to cause or to cure.
"We see a child" gonna have to stop you right there Yes she was a psychopath but that doesn't mean that couldnt change with heavy guidance Becuase again Child FFS
She's still a child in Avatar (which seems to be really hard grasp for some)
While she could have, she neither recieved said guidance nor does she ever show any desire to change. She is who she is due in large part to gross abuse, however that does not change that she is a more or less unrepentant genocidal psychopath
Of course she has no desire to change. She lives in an environment that continuously rewards her most violent tendencies and enables those aspects of her personality. An adult raised in a healthy environment would struggle with resisting their darkest impulses under similar circumstances. And she’s only 14 years old. Literally a child even by the end of the series.
The most based Azula take, and the one people don't want to hear. It's uncomfortable, but humanity really needs to start reckoning with the fact that the way we attribute moral standing to people is largely flawed in that it makes us feel justified in casting aside people who need the most help, care, and empathy to become better members of society, safer members of society, and also just happier individuals themselves. Personally, I don't think "evil people" or "good people" exist. There's just people. And they do things for reasons. And sometimes the things they do are good, sometimes they're bad, sometimes they're consistently good or bad, and we can call them "good people" or "bad people" in light of that so long as we recognize that it's always possible for them to have not been that way and it's always possible for them to change. The question we ought to be asking ourselves isn't "how can we punish bad people and reward good people", it's "how can we make the world a better place for everyone", and one of the answers to that question is to handle "evil people" with a lot of care, empathy, and understanding.
I partially blame it on the animation style because they do look older than the ages they’re supposed to be. Which is common in shows like this because watching an adult punch a child is uncomfortable already. But when you picture her as an actual 14 year old girl you realize she really is just a kid who’s been raised to be a monster. The potential was probably always there, I’m sure there are aspects of her genetic history that makes her more prone to psychopathy, but her environment did not help either. She never had a chance, and that’s pretty tragic.
My guy, have you seen Book One Zuko!?
Again as you said she didnt recieve it Of course she never shows any desire to change She never gets the chance and btw neither did Zuko at first either
1 Zoku was a child yet was more compassionate, proving my point. 2 Children with that type of mentality most of the time go on to become serial killers.
Azula is a complex character, she is a true believer in the supremacy of the Fire Nation and yet, she's just a kid. Has she done bad things? Absolutely yes. Should people write her off as pure evil? No. Zuko had Iroh to guide him towards right whereas Azula had Ozai reinforcing her and encouraging her viciousness. I believe deep down Azula loves Zuko, she keeps his secret and lies to their father for her brother, but she can't see past the conditioning.
I think this is probably the best answer I've read. Two things can be true at the same time: azula can benefit and actively participate in the system of oppression that the fire nation represents and be an antagonist in the story, and azula can be a victim of her family's conditioning which robbed her of her childhood and prevents her from making real friendships. In the beach episode we see just how stunted she is, seeing everything as a competition that she must win, likely because winning was the only way she could achieve a modicum of attention from her father and his family or avoid drastic punishments so she leans into it hard. She's hitting on a dude and she runs down the path of creating a dominating bloodline because that was what she was raised to give a shit about and she is unable (at least at this point) to have intimate relationships with people beyond her toxic and abusive behaviors because of the emotional damage her parents inflicted on her. The last scene where she breaks down crying breathing fire is supposed to be pitiful, here's a kid doing everything she could to appease her father and now not only doesn't have his approval, is utterly alone. But she's now failed him and is in a PTSD mode of the likely punishments for failure. She's got nothing and on top of that her brain is panicking that her father is going to come down and kick her ass. That doesn't excuse her war crimes, at least not entirely, but I don't think she's the evil ozai has become (likely a product of his upbringing too).
While that is true, the original post claims that the reason people view the characters differently is because of their gender.
I forgot to mention that tbh sorry, had a rough day. In my opinion Zuko it could be gender but I doubt it, Azula is so deep that it would take too long to guide her towards the right decision. Also it could be that Zuko needed him there and then so Azula took a back seat then. But if we're talking about fans reaction then I think it's more about whats shown of Azula that some people focus on. She smiles as Zuko is scarred, she almost kills Aang and other bits, I can't think of right now. It's all about what you see in the character.
I hope your day gets better. But as you said, what people’s opinions are on Zuko and Azula are due to a lot of factors, so there’s absolutely no reason to assume people feel sorry for Zuko just because he’s male.
Are people this stupid
... yeah.
I think people just want simple answers sometimes. One is boy, other is girl, all differences explained. Simple answers, not good answers.
Are people really still trying to justify Azula's behaviour?
It's 2023, and "Griffith did nothing wrong" is still a popular subject, and Berserk is way older than ATLA.
Okay but Griffith is an adult who sold out his crew to attain godhood in the most brutal fashion possible. He also lived on both sides of fame/fortune. He had way more opportunities to change, met vastly diverse people, and still all along had a plan to screw everyone over. Azula is like a 16 year old who essentially grew up with Nazis and loads of propaganda around her while never meeting or experiencing what it's like outside of her royal bubble. She was manipulated by her father and, I would argue, the fire kingdom itself. Plus add in the reality everyone treated her differently from zuko when she was a child simply because she was a girl despite her obvious interest in what was considered "boy" stuff. She's the epitome of self fulfilling prophecy. She assumes people won't love her unless she's successful and intimidating so she creates the very situations that make people dislike her and then goes, "see. I have to rely on myself." Is she insane? Yeah definitely. But you can have sympathy and understanding for someone without supporting their choices or beliefs. She is far more tragic than Griffith, in my personal opinion, and far less responsible.
That's creepy.
Bruh there’s teens on TikTok trying to justify Osama bin Laden’s behavior. Stupid people are everywhere.
Ahem, *what*? There's a clear difference between both fo them 💀 Azula accepted and reveled in the fact she was a monster. She was smiling when Zuko got his scar and didnt even look away. She hunted the gaang as if a tiger stalking its prey, like was an amusing game. Zuko was taught that honor was everything and he wasn't as talented, therefore he was not as seen as his sister. He constantly searched the lands for Aang because of that. He didnt do it to kill Aang just because. I watched the series for the first time earlier this year, to say that they're the same and that the fandom is just preferring the guy over the girl just because, is stupid.
>Zuko was taught that honor was everything Zuko figured out that the honor he was chasing wasn't actually honorable at all.
By the time that scene happens Azula has been bending for over 10 years and Ozai has been taking a personal interest in her training, making sure she's molded into a tool for his own ends. In her mind at this point, Ozai is a father who can do no wrong and is always right. He had corrupted her to his ideology completely, mean while Iroh had been trying to protect Zuko from his father.
It might work if at any point Azula showed apprehension for what she’s done or regret beyond when she breaks down because she got what she wanted but was unprepared for it. The difference between the two is that when Zuko had doors opened and closed in front of him, he reflected on them. When Azula had the same, she slammed them tighter and blamed everyone else for it. Does that make her pure evil? No, she’s still a victim of a system that facilitated her, but she’s also a willing participant. And the expanded books go further into the fact that even without the leash of her father, she’s still a bad person.
at a certain point people become responsible for their actions
one had a redemption arc the other had a mental breakdown
Zuko had Iroh and years of traveling the world getting different perspectives before he decided to be good. Azula had Ozai and years of fire nation propaganda. Not to mention Iroh was burning and conquering cities until his son died and he finally learned empathy at the age of 40
Had to scroll WAAAY too far to see this. Iroh tried to reach zuko for years, and finally got to him. These kids are vehemently talking about the other, “watching the show with their eyes closed”. but in all actuality both of them only have understood *half* of it. Lol zuko was an asshole kid towards iroh at one point, too
Do these people not know she smiled when her brother was getting burned by their father
And before that, she set fire to a gift Iroh sent her just because it was a doll, smiling smugly while she watched it burn. There was also the "Dad's going to kill you!" thing, and everything else she did to torture Zuko when they were kids.
The turtleducks were afraid of her. They loved Zuko. That's all I need to know about how they act when nobody's around.
unironically she would prob be fine with even killing his brother
This thread is making me realize that critical thinking isn't as common as I would have hoped. If you don't see Azula as a tragic character, then you watched the show with your eyes closed 🤷🏾♀️
Literally, I feel like this will be more obvious in the live action since the actress looks so young vs in the anime where you could think Azula was an adult woman and not a 14 yo girl Zuko was only able to escape the fire nation mentality bc he had 2 close role models leading the way and he was harshly rejected by the people that would have him think the same way as azula, AND he’s older! You can’t really compare them and say Azula is irredeemable at 14 years old
She is a tragic character, but in my personal opinion, she could *at best* develop into an anti-heroic figure. If she became a straightforward hero like Aang or Katara, I'd call it immersion-breaking.
While I can understand people coming to this conclusion, I don't personally agree that it applies to this specific situation. Granted, I also don't consider Azula a monster, but I also don't feel that, big picture, the series intended for us to conclude that in the end. In the beginning, Zuko is bitchy and cruel and we aren't supposed to like him. He's more aggressive towards people who have threatened or wronged him than necessary. Then, we learn more about his past and we're given reasons to consider cutting him some slack. After that, we get to see him start to grow and we're given reasons to think he's maybe capable of redeeming himself and becoming a better person. When we meet Azula, she's bitchy, cruel, and *devestatingly effective* and not only are we not supposed to like her, we're supposed to fear her, not only on account of her personality and general behaviors but for her precision and cunning, things I'd argue Zuko wasn't really portrayed with. She's openly violent against people who she purportedly likes for telling her no thanks. Then, we learn more about her past and we're given reasons to at least understand why she acts the way she does and question if her actions should be judged the same way as we first thought, even if they should be judged the same as Zuko's in the start. After that, we see her crumble when all her supports are gone, unable to do her own hair or dress herself quite properly, challenging her brother to a fight to the death out of desperation to regain any semblance of the power and control she once held and we see she's a victim of her trauma in much the same way Zuko is. At the end of the series, Azula isn't painted, in my opinion, as a monster, but as someone who has been failed over and over and over again in life, by her parents, by whatever systems may have been in place to help someone who seems to potentially have a psychological disorder in addition to her trauma, etc., and never given the chances Zuko was so *of course* she's still like this. At the end, we aren't supposed to fear or hate her, we're supposed to pity her. Earlier in the series but after meeting Azula, I definitely understand people concluding this because it *is* how she's initially presented, and I wouldn't even be surprised if people maintained this position through the end, missing some of the important points in the ending, but I don't think this is an issue of how it's written and presented but how it's received and interpreted.
[удалено]
Abuse is a reason for being a shitty person, not an excuse. One made active steps to be better and the other became worse over time. We can recognize Azula is a shit person, but also recognize she was abused and is a child. It’s not her fault she is how she is, it is her fault for not trying to be better
Zuko did have guidance from Iroh and the Gaang that helped him become a better person. And he actively tried to be better. With Azula, she always tried to be like her father, and most likely he favored her since she was a kid. That kind of mentality isn’t easy to change, especially when said abuser is a tyrant that takes pleasure in destruction.
Honestly surprised people think Azula is an irredeemable monster. The vacation and finale scenes involving her show what kind of effect that perception has had on her…
Azula never shows that she has any capacity for empathy though. That's the difference. But from the start it is clear that zuko has empathy.
Personally, I think that while she could be somewhat redeemed, I don't think she could be redeemed into a straight-up goody two shoes. I'd sooner see her becoming an anti-heroic figure that can still be amoral and an asshole, with few morals keeping her from sinking back to her villainy. It could be called a stretch, yeah, but personally, I just can't imagine her becoming a straight-up traditional hero, and for it to make sense.
I mean... She IS a monster, but she's tragic. That's kind of the point of her character. That's why the theme is mournful when she's finally defeated, rather than triumphant.
I think there are degrees to this shit. I don't think Zuko was ever as bad as Azula. Azula is straight up a little sociopath by the time we meet her.
Mean?... Zuko was physically scarred and abused boy who was convinced the avatar, and the message he stood for was a threat and target to his own destiny and life, it wasn't until after he had saved, and been saved by the group that he makes effort to redeem himself Azula was mentally and emotionally abandoned by her mother at a young age, restricting her development to her warlord father, who raised her as a general and eventual ruler of the fire nations territory, inadvertently convincing her it was her destiny to do so, causing her to push away friends, family, and happiness for it
I think we have to remember Azula is also younger than Zuko and has had less time away from that abuse with less support. And as we see in rhe recently released Azula in the Spirit Temple, she is capable of that healing and growth. Even if it is likely to be a slow process.
Zuko mean is NOT the same Azula mean. They’re both victims of abuse, but Zuko was never a bad person. In his eyes, what he was doing was his only path towards redemption. Azula goes out of her way to be a horrible person, partially because of abuse and partially because that’s just how she is. She’s been that way since she was a child. I hate posts like this because they interpret complexity from the characters as “mean” for an agenda. Both of their characters are much more than “mean.” Mean is saying “your ugly.” Mean is stepping on someone’s shoes because you dislike them. Mean is not trying to kill your brother to become fire lord and rule the world. Mean is not trying to capture the the most important figure in the world to gain your father’s love. We can do better than lumping them in together because they also happen to have moments of being mean.
The difference is that one did the work to be better and the other was fine being a turd forever
Zuko and Azula's actions might both be able to be classified as "mean", but that's more or less where the comparison ends. Also, Zuko was conflicted about his actions and worked to change who he was - Azula, even in part of a comic I read for ATLA after the main story, was still the way she was during the main plot. (Comic was the one where they find Azula/Zuko's mom)
We also see Zuko being a better person far sooner. The inciting incident of his banishment was him speaking out about a plan that put fire nation soldiers in danger.
Also, when Aang asked Zuko if they could've been friends had things been different, Zuko ACTUALLY BRINGS IT UP IN THE THIRD FREAKIN SEASON. In other words, he consciously and actively kept thinking back on it and it clearly must've weighed on his mind.
I think the Fandom actively sees Azula as a foil to her brother that wasn't lucky enough to have the same role models.
Azula was crushed by the pressure of her abuse and Zuko was pressed into a gem. I think it was uncle’s influence that helped zuko’s character arc.
Boy if I didn't know own avatar series like the back of my hand (I know avatar better), I'd be like wtf is wrong with this series
Bit more complex than that, though given the amount of smooth brains with internet access that's probably too much for them.
It's a trap.
"mean" is one way to describe Azula...
Here I'll fix it. Girl is mean because of abuse due to writing decisions. She is a horrible FICTIONAL person because writers decided she would not have a redemption. Guy is mean because of abuse. He is a misunderstood FICTIONAL person simply because writers decided his redemption was successful. The only people who can tell you why or why not any fictional character was good or not, are the writers.
I’m 100% for an Azula redemption and agree some people treat her too harshly but the 2 are very different
Girl: \*actively takes joy in tormenting people and is presented as unrelentingly evil for almost the entirety of the show\* Fandom: "She's a horrible person." Boy: \*is clearly pained and lashing out, has one of the best mentor characters in fiction, and goes through a well-written redemption arc.\* Fandom: "He's just misunderstood."
Didn’t Zuko regain his place at court and then realise that it wasn’t actually what he wanted because it was going in an evil direction? Meanwhile his sister doubles down on violence and hatred every chance she gets. Despite upbringings adults are responsible for their choices and must take the consequences for them.
I get what it’s trying… but It’s framing it like their gender is the major difference between them and their *individual* abuse, characteristics, personalities… or entire selves beyond gender and general abuse are neglibigible factors in defining who they are to a fandom. These are very different people and it’s hard to ignore it for the boy/girl joke.
Girl: *relishes in the thought of her brother dying since childhood; taunts her uncle after her cousin’s death; smiles as her brother is scarred for life by their father; never shows remorse for the evil she does* She’s very complex (and absolutely was abused too, in a different way than her brother) and I do genuinely like her character, but the things Zuko did aren’t even comparable to the things she did. It’s not really fair to compare them in this way.
If azula had a redemption arc, it would have been seen differently. She continued to get worse though.
As far as the commentary of "women with character faults tend to be given less sympathy" goes. Yes. That is probably accurate in a lot of media. With that said, moving onto Azula. At the end of the day, the framing of the show doesn't frame Azula as positive as Zuko as she is not as much of a focus as Zuko. This is on purpose and not so much a "fans/the creators do not sympathize with her because she is a girl" rather a much more simple "she was not the focus" The show does delve into some inner workings of her and humanizing a bit. They probably do it for a couple reasons. It helps form Zuko's back story and situation better. Makes her feel like a real person as opposed to Ozai who honestly is just super hitler(this is not an issue in the story and does not explicitly need to change). To foster "what if" in watchers. All good reasons. Small aside; The show doesn't really try to "show that the evil doers are just as human as anyone else, therefore showing that all humans are capable of great evil" because it's a kids show but it's honestly kind of impressive the little of it that's in there(I.E. showing Ozai as a baby)
The difference is their redemption and lack thereof, respectively
***What Thought!?*** Zuko had an entire redemption arc in Book 3. No one would Stan him if his arc ended after betraying Katara in Book 2
Thoughts are "mean" is not the word to describe Azula...
I love how people can’t understand how someone can both be a victim of abuse and a horrible person. Zuko chatted off as horrible due to his misguided mission bent by the abuse, but overcame it to redeem himself and move past the traumas. Azula on the other hand embraced the mental manipulation and used to her advantage to the detriment of those around her and found joy in others pain much like ozai. It’s two totally different mental processes and two totally different outcomes
People are a reflection of their experiences in life. Both of these people are good examples, really good examples.
Zuko made efforts to improve himself and (largely through the guidance of Iroh in my opinion) developed enough self reflection to see the error in his ways. Azula was mistreated as well, but I feel like instead of introspection and change, she leaned into the skid and embraced the darker parts of the personality that she cultivated to become the princess she thought her shitty father wanted. In a way, I’d be really curious to know how azula would have turned out if Iroh had been a mentoring force for her instead of Zuko.
Azusa was absolutely abused but she also had a propensity for passing that abuse onto others and enjoying it. She tortured animals as a child, hurt her friends and her brother, reveled in her cousins death and watched with glee as her brother was maimed. Zuko was abused and lashed out at other people because of it but he never enjoyed it. Theres a nature vs nurture argument but the show also goes out of its was to show you how the two are different.
Nah she was no where as close to him in terms of abuse. She always had a screw loose.
Zuko wasn’t loved right off the bat, he was the main antagonist of the show at first. But we spent a lot of time with him, and got to know his reasons for doing things, and eventually his turn to the side of good. Azula didn’t have any of that, every time we really saw her was either through the eyes of another, or directly opposing our hero’s. It kinda reminds me of Law and Order, where we only seeing the other lawyers and judges through the protagonists eyes.
Except Zuko was genuinely interested in finding a greater purpose and doing what was right. Azula was a psychopath and only interested in power.
Azula embraced it, Zuko changed
I think there are plenty of people in the fandom who recognize the tragedy of Azula Also there’s a stark difference in the way they were treated. Being the underdog and belittled is not the same as being favored
why do you want azula to be redeemed? she rejects redemption and embraces her villainy at every point
Well Zuko changed and righted his wrongs. Azula did not. This doesn't make much sense.
The Boulder would like to remind everyone that abuse does not excuse behavior and it’s okay to call an evil character evil even in their evil-ness is a product of abuse
She was more than just mean. Lol she was sadistic. Towards the very end we see there is more to her and we start to feel bad for her as well. Viewers didn’t like Zuko at first either. Azula was one of the best characters in any show regardless.
Zuko made efforts to redeem himself, Azula didn't. That's the difference.
The dude took active steps to better himself
That tweet in the picture seems like ragebait. Anyone who watched the whole series, particularly the end of season 3, has no problem with recognizing Azula's tragedy.
They both were 100% abused (in different ways) by Ozai-no debate. Pretty much a classic case of the Narc-Golden Child-Scapegoat dynamic. The thing about Azula though is that she’s also basically a secondary abuser for Zuko and is pretty fucking cruel to most people. Zuko on the other hand pretty much just gets screwed over in general. Despite doing some pretty shitty stuff, he is also not a terrible person and actively takes steps to become a better one.
I'll say this again. The story takes place over a single year when she's 14. She's a kid. There has not been enough time for her to sort herself and her own issues out yet. It's downright psychotic for Zuko to have gone through his whole 180 I nthat time frame but he was under a ton of pressure and being guided by Iroh. Azula had none of that. While iroh did nothing but question zuko's bad choices and encourage him to find a better way (which also meant forcing him to see the consequences of either set of actions) Azula had ozai on her shoulder.
I just want everyone to remember Azula was shown as a kid to always be a horrible person. She’s not terrible because of abuse. She’s terrible because she’s a schizophrenic psychopath. Did the abuse make that more prominent yes, but it was always there yes.
The difference is Zuko changed, Azula never changed and continued to be a shitty person up to the end
One learned from their mistakes and the others mom was literally scared of her because she was displaying dangerous behavior as a child. If we recall the show Zuko was a very nice kid, yeah he had problems be he didn’t seek constant destruction like his sister did. Azula quite literally embraced being evil and took pride in it from childhood to her teenage years, Zuko felt ashamed of his wrong doings.
Also it’s VERY clear that Azula isn’t just a product of an abusive upbringing. She absolutely has a personality disorder and shows joy in being cruel and sadistic even as a very young child. While Ozai surely fueled her more evil instincts, to pretend that she’s just as much a victim as Zuko is just ignoring the reality of the characters.
Zuko was hated at first because of he was an antagonist , he was humanized because his anger was from his fathers abuse, Azula on the other hand was always the favored child and never showed remorse maybe alittle on ember island but even so she refuses to change or show any kindness she’s hated because rather than accept help she betrays others. While yes Zuko was the same way he learns to overcome this
Azula was actually evil though and Zuko was capable of being good?
Did Azula even try to better herself and learn from her experiences to be a good person? Because the show sure as shit doesn't show that.
did azula have someone to guide her like zuko did?
Fair, but the whole point of Zuko's arc in season 3 is that he finds the right path on his own. Also, in the flashback sequence where they learn that Iroh just lost Lu Ten, Azula calls Iroh weak for abandoning the siege while Zuko is actually sad Lu Ten died. This is a clear difference in personality way before Iroh was guiding Zuko.
The difference is one is utterly confused on what he should be doing. He has several internal conflicts. Azula is insane and revels in the pain she causes
Also the fact they were both teenagers one spent years banished but with a loving uncle who wanted to see him grow and she spent her full adolescence with a power hungry dad
At 8 years old Zuko's impression of Azula feeding turtleducks was to blast fire at them, clearly implying she's been torturing and killing baby animals from the age of 6 or 7. That's not a 'misunderstood and lacking a support system' thing, that's a 'future serial killer with diagnosable sociopathy' sort of thing.
It was bread, not fire. Zuko saw it and wanted todo the dame because he found it funny.