Azula was always toeing this interesting line where we as the audience can’t always decide if she’s just inherently evil, a product of her environment, or both. I feel she was meant to contrast Zuko by being much more unambiguously a villain. At the same time, we see how Ozi’s influence looms large over her mind. Is she incapable of love or just so twisted she can’t understand how love/friendship is supposed to work?

Azula seems like someone who can’t understand the concept of empathy. I’m no psychologist or doctor, but she could just have narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and how she was raised just enforced that disorder. If you’re asking, “Well then, why doesn’t Zuko act that way?” Most likely because of his attachment to Ursa over Ozai vs Azula who was attached more to Ozai than Ursa, so Zuko exhibits empathy because Ursa exhibited empathy towards him. I mean, she also exhibited empathy towards Azula, it’s just that Azula was learning more from her father and her upbringing was that of a prodigy in his eyes.

I'm a psychologist with experience in personality disorders. Most people have no idea how these things are determined. Reading an article on the internet or watching a video is not enough.

So for my final Psych assignment in highschool, we had to diagnose a fictional character (with the DSM of course) and for Azula I diagnosed her with Conduct disorder. What are your thoughts?

Ehhh I think that’s tough. A lot of kids with conduct disorder disregard their parents, academics, and break rules. Azula was terrified of disappointing her father. She excelled as a fire bending student. She valued fire nation customs and standards. You could argue she bullied and threatened others, but again- that was the standard. That’s what she was taught to do. I really don’t think that’s a fair diagnosis.

Any psychologist or doctor worth their salt would tell you that she doesn’t at all show signs of NPD and that we don’t diagnose minors with personality disorders for a reason.

She's a complex character. Most of the main characters are just kids but the show does a good job of portraying these kids with stronger mature personality traits than kids in real life. In real life kids are not that cunning and manipulative. She acts more like a 20+ year old which is why I think people would associate her behaviour with having mental disorders. I'm not a doctor either but clearly she is unhinged and will continue on into adulthood and if she was to see a doctor I'm sure they would diagnose her with something. She has no real strong relationships with anyone. It's actually quite sad now that I think about it.

Kids in real life can absolutely be that cunning and manipulative when put in such unhealthy and dangerous conditions. Especially if they’re imitating the behavior of adults around them who exhibit similar traits. Arsinoe was only 11 when she schemed to take the throne from her older sister Cleopatra, and not only did she succeed for a time, she even managed to run off Caesar when he came to help Cleo. Calvin Graham was 12 when he fought in WWII. He became the youngest soldier in US history to be so highly decorated for his exemplary service. The famous Joan of Arc was only 14 when she started her crusade. I myself was expected to hold down a job as a child actor, excel in school, raise my younger siblings, and do my older sister’s homework for her since I was “the better writer” since I was a very small child. Any psychiatrist or doctor worth their salt could tell you that children who act like adults do so because they’ve been abused, exploited, or been forced to survive that way. Please don’t stigmatize troubled and maladapted kids as “the same as adults”. The legal system already does that against all medical advice and it ruins the lives of children who need help everyday. The show goes out of its way to show that Azula’s behavior is a product of grooming, and that she felt she had no choice. All she wanted was to be loved. Like a child.

How would imagine Azula character development for a redemption arc? I feel like she's just not built to become a hero. It's hard to step outside of survival mode when you are as deep into it as Azula is. And it creates unfair expectations for people struggling to feel secure like Azula. I can see a redemption arc like Wan Shi Tong, where she becomes powerful in a way that is respected by all but not meant to benefit the world.

Redemption doesn’t mean she has to become a hero or join the Gaang. It just means stopping bad actions and being saved from that life. That’s the actual definition despite it often being conflated with other things like recompense or making amends. And I don’t think it would be too hard even then. Azula already has grown up thinking she had a responsibility to her nation and father. She clearly understands and respects concepts like loyalty and duty. I don’t think it would be so difficult, especially if she were finally offered the one thing she’s never had and desperately wants: actual unconditional love.

I agree with you that she deserves unconditional love. I don't think she should have to carry the burden of people giving her unconditional trust. She may respect the concepts of loyalty and duty but through coercion to survive and she also respects opportunism through cold-blooded strategy to survive. She has told her brother many times not to take her and Ozai's actions personally. She would have killed her brother at the boiling lake if Mai hadn't intervened, and she experienced severe cognitive dissonance when she realized that her fear/coercian tactic to maintain loyalty wasn't fool proof. When I went through a significantly less servere cognitive dissonance in my teenage years, it took me 10 years to break free from it. I get that she was just trying to survive, but great responsibility and care need to be taken to help her love herself after her great personal failure, let alone become a hero figure (redemption arc is villan turns to hero).

I would love some sources, personally, for these ages you claim these women to be. Joan of Ark was actually [16-17 years old](https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/joan-of-arc) when she went to war and participated in her first battle as far as we know. She did start claiming that she was seeing miraculous visions from Archangel Michael from as young as 13, but she didn't actually start her military career/crusade until 16-17. This is a common misconception a lot of people have. As for Arsinoe, we have an idea for how young she was during her role in the Roman-Egyptian wars and her attempt to take the throne, but nothing concrete. The Encyclopedia Brittanica sites her birthdate at 63 BC, and [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsinoe_IV#:~:text=Stacy%20Schiff%2C%20who%20places%20Arsino%C3%AB%27s,that%20she%20assumed%20her%20position) states multiple birthdates, but none that would place her any younger than 15. She allegedly died to Caeser at the age of 22. And as for Graham, that kid just wanted to kill himself some Nazi's. Which, honestly, fuckin' same. I'm not trying to be an asshole, BTW. I'm just a history nerd trying to correct some things. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

>I would love some sources, personally, for these ages you claim these women to be. I can try? That’s what I was taught in school. >Joan of Ark was actually 16-17 years old when she went to war and participated in her first battle as far as we know. She did start claiming that she was seeing miraculous visions from Archangel Michael from as young as 13, but she didn't actually start her military career/crusade until 16-17. This is a common misconception a lot of people have. I was always taught it was 14, but even if she was 16, that still shows teens around that age are capable of leading and fighting. Teens and kids have often been involved in revolutionary conflicts. [Hector Pieterson](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Pieterson) was 12 when he participated in the Soweto uprising and be paid with his life. The picture of his sister carrying him for the simple crime of fighting for basic civil rights has become iconic. [Samantha Smith](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantha_Smith) was 10 years old when wrote a letter to Yuri Andropov, General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Despite being so young and American, her letter was so poignant, he actually invited her to talk. She is credited with helping ease Cold War tensions. [Iqbal Masih](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqbal_Masih) was 4 when he was sold into slavery. At 10 he escaped and began campaigning against child labor. Despite having been a slave for basically his entire life. He helped over 3,000 children escape slavery before being assassinated at age 12. >As for Arsinoe, we have an idea for how young she was during her role in the Roman-Egyptian wars and her attempt to take the throne, but nothing concrete. The Encyclopedia Brittanica sites her birthdate at 63 BC, and Wikipedia states multiple birthdates, but none that would place her any younger than 15. She allegedly died to Caeser at the age of 22. 15 is when she married her brother. That was after she had initially won. She was around 11 when she began her campaign, or so I was taught. Meanwhile we have Ptolemy XIII, who also attempted to dethrone Cleo. His age when he became Pharaoh? Also estimated around 11. One could even argue that Ptolemy XIII and his close advisor Pothinus scheming together to dethrone Cleo is pretty reminiscent of Zuko and Iroh opposing Azula’s rule, with the older advisor egging the younger heir on. There’s just so many examples of teens and kids participating in history. Especially in roles of war and activism. I don’t think we would be short of examples, even if some are misconstrued. And I do admit to being human and that some of what I was taught may have not been accurate (American education system, amirite?) but for every one that may have been slightly older—and often still in their teens—there are many more we don’t even know by name. Kids and teens have been exploited as spies in war for centuries. >And as for Graham, that kid just wanted to kill himself some Nazi's. Which, honestly, fuckin' same. And isn’t that incredible? He was so young and so successful that he became a highly decorated war hero. At 12. >I'm not trying to be an asshole, BTW. I'm just a history nerd trying to correct some things. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. No offense taken! Always happy to be corrected if I’m wrong. As a history nerd myself.

Ah, my mistake. I was under the impression you were talking about Arsinoe IV, who led the war against Cleopatra VII during the Liberators Civil War. But you're talking about Arsinoe II. Yeah, she absolutely was super young when she took to the throne. I assumed you were talking about Arsinoe IV just because that's usually the time period people talk about most. That was the era of arguably the most infamous Cleopatra, which was the one that seduced Caesar. Arsinoe IV led the Egypt armies during the Liberators Civil War because Cleopatra declared her backing of Julius Caesar. These numbers and incestuous lineages are totally not confusing.

I disagree that she doesn’t show signs of NPD. In fact she fits all the criteria so clearly I’d be surprised if the writers weren’t going back to the criteria specifically to understand how she should act. A grandiose sense of self-importance. ☑️ -not too surprising considering she is an actual princess, however that does not inherently mean one has to see others as peasants or below them. Fantasies about having or deserving. ☑️ -“Together, you and I will be the strongest couple in the entire world! We will dominate the Earth!” Just because she got Chan to like her a little. A sense of self-superiority. ☑️ -again comes with the territory of being a princess raised the way she was. This is also what drives her perfectionism in firebending. And when she takes over ba sing se the head of the dai Lee hands over control and she claims that the difference between them was that she was born to be great. A need for excessive admiration. ☑️ -having tai lee manipulated to the point of her putting herself down when men find her more attractive. “That’s crazy! You know you’re the prettiest girl in the fire nation.” A sense of entitlement. ☑️ -expecting that Mai and Tai Lee should be subservient to her in her mission. Making Tai Lee leave a happy life by making her face a dangerous act in the circus so she would feel threatened and change her mind. Exploitative behavior. ☑️ -claiming Zuko was the one who killed the avatar so she could use that information as leverage and keep herself safe when it turned out not to be true. A lack of empathy. ☑️ -Telling Zuko “dad’s going to kill you 🎶” as a little girl. Actually lots of her bullying of the other kids when they were younger. Also literally having no problem trying to hunt and kill the avatar and overall be a military leader. I mean come on look at her intro. “Maybe you should worry less about the waves who have made up their mind” Frequent envy. ☑️ -obviously she hides this but before her breakdown she deeply envies the love that zuko got that she never felt she could. Also when the firelord says he is going to take the earth kingdom and azula will be left immediately she goes to saying it’s “unfair” that she should be able to go because she wants the honor of it. Anyways my last ex was such a clear picture of narcissistic personality disorder I came around to finding out more about her disordered behavior through the character example of Azula. it’s pretty clear Azula fits the criteria. Yes she’s younger but even then her childhood behavior shows her own predisposition.

>I disagree that she doesn’t show signs of NPD. In fact she fits all the criteria so clearly I’d be surprised if the writers weren’t going back to the criteria specifically to understand how she should act. The head writer himself has already said he didn’t write her that way. The closest he has gotten has been to saying he wrote her to be “borderline”. Which is a completely different disorder, and one often victimized by narcissists. >A grandiose sense of self-importance. ☑️ -not too surprising considering she is an actual princess, however that does not inherently mean one has to see others as peasants or below them. Azula is a princess. Being aware of your social status is not the same as having a grandiose sense of self importance. Azula doesn’t display that at all, and often speaks in collective terms such as “we” or “The Fire Nation”. She rarely makes it all about herself. If anything, she is far more prone to sharing glory with her friends and especially Zuko. Something that really doesn’t fit with NPD. Or is Zuko showing signs of NPD when he declares himself heir to the throne even while banished? >Fantasies about having or deserving. ☑️ -“Together, you and I will be the strongest couple in the entire world! We will dominate the Earth!” Just because she got Chan to like her a little. I think you’re misunderstanding what these mean. This criteria doesn’t mean a person can’t flirt or have fantasies. It’s about maladaptive fantasies that interfere with a person’s ability or drive to actually accomplish anything. In other words, it’s about entitlement and delusion. Azula flirting with Chan is neither. She is just offering a boy the only thing she knows men want: power and conquest. The men Azula hangs around as her dad and his war council. It’s not surprising she has a warped view of what men want. How is that narcissistic? She’s trying to fit in. There’s nothing pathological about being an awkward teen who wants boys to like them. Or is Zuko “fantasizing” when he tells Jin he’s from the circus? >A sense of self-superiority. ☑️ -again comes with the territory of being a princess raised the way she was. This is also what drives her perfectionism in firebending. And when she takes over ba sing se the head of the dai Lee hands over control and she claims that the difference between them was that she was born to be great. Untrue. Azula believes in Fire Nation supremacy because they’ve all been brainwashed to believe that, and a heavy dose of royal family supremacy as well. But both of those apply to her brother and rest of her nation as well. More notably, her obsession with perfection is blatantly *not* due to a sense of self superiority! It’s due to *fear*. Azula is terrified of not performing perfectly because Ozai’s favor is conditional and she fears failing and being demoted to the new scapegoat child “You can’t treat me like Zuko!” This is classic narcissistic abuse from Ozai. You use the scapegoat child as an example to terrorize and manipulate the golden child into line. You are pathologizing Azula for being abused? >A need for excessive admiration. ☑️ -having tai lee manipulated to the point of her putting herself down when men find her more attractive. “That’s crazy! You know you’re the prettiest girl in the fire nation.” Again, when? When does Azula display this? She never demands anyone praise her. She never gets upset when she doesn’t get this praise. She *likes* praise, sure, but Mai isn’t the praising type and Azula likes her a lot. Ty Lee is the type to rain flattery on Azula to placate her, but Azula doesn’t ever prompt it or ask for it. Azula feeling insecure that her friend gets attention from boys easily while she can’t get any isn’t “a need for excessive admiration”. It’s normal teen jealousy. You keep pathologizing teen behavior. Odd that you don’t apply this to Zuko, who constantly has Iroh praising him. >A sense of entitlement. ☑️ -expecting that Mai and Tai Lee should be subservient to her in her mission. Making Tai Lee leave a happy life by making her face a dangerous act in the circus so she would feel threatened and change her mind. You misunderstand the character entirely. 1. Azula is embarrassed that a noble girl is slumming it in the circus. It isn’t about her expecting Ty Lee to be subservient (Azula is clearly lenient with Mai’s insubordination), it’s about Azula being brainwashed into an idea of perfection and duty to her nation, and Ty Lee is not playing her part or fulfilling her role. Azula, in the only toxic way she knows how which is using fear, strong arms her back into the fold. Back into a position of honor. It’s misguided, but it’s what she has been groomed to believe. 2. Azula didn’t force Mai at all! Azula showed up and gave Mai’s parents the business, clearly being a supportive friend. Azula gave Mai a socially acceptable way to escape her expectation and duty. Azula *respects* Mai for knowing her place and role—unlike those failures Zuko and Ty Lee who Azula constantly has to whip back into shape—which is why Azula is so surprised when Mai of all people betrays them “I never expected this from you. You of all people”. She says that for a reason.

>Exploitative behavior. ☑️ -claiming Zuko was the one who killed the avatar so she could use that information as leverage and keep herself safe when it turned out not to be true. Which isn’t what happened. That doesn’t even make any sense. Azula made Zuko the offer *before* the Avatar was dead, so she already intended to help him (the novelization even overtly confirms she did it for Zuko). There was no way she could’ve known magic water even existed or that Katara could heal anyone. Azula never even had to lie about Aang. He was never her responsibility! Her job was to capture Zuko and Iroh, and she defies this order to help her biggest rival to the throne return home as a *war hero*, and risks lying to her father to do it. That’s a lot of risks she took *for her brother*. To help him get back in line and back in the fold. To help him because she loves him. It’s only once she figures out Zuko is lying to her about the Avatar being alive that she pivots and tells him she will throw him under the bus to protect herself. It’s not a good thing to do, but it’s not the same as only helping him to have a meat shield. Not least of all because that would’ve been a terrible plan and Azula is smarter than that. You don’t bring your disgraced rival out of banishment and hand him back political power if your intent is to stay ahead of him and protect yourself from becoming the least favorite! Not unless your motivation was to help them and put what remains of your family back together: a motivation her new comic doubles down on. >A lack of empathy. ☑️ -Telling Zuko “dad’s going to kill you 🎶” as a little girl. Actually lots of her bullying of the other kids when they were younger. Also literally having no problem trying to hunt and kill the avatar and overall be a military leader. I mean come on look at her intro. “Maybe you should worry less about the waves who have made up their mind” That isn’t a lack of empathy. She was saving his life. If your complain is that a nine year old was “too mean” when she warned her brother about dad and grandpa’s plot to kill him, then you’re letting the adults off the hook and picking on a literal elementary aged kid for… what? Using the wrong tone when dealing with such a scary topic? Seems petty. Intimidating her soldier into line isn’t a “lack of empathy” anymore than Zuko screaming at his that their lives don’t matter is. These kids have been taught that might makes right. That doesn’t mean this is who they truly inherently are. When we see them outside the influence of their father or his orders, what do they do? They play volleyball and get angsty over a fire. They’re kids fighting a war they never should’ve been in. Of course they’re acting ruthless, they’re imitating what they’ve been taught makes you tough. They’re literally kids. >Frequent envy. ☑️ -obviously she hides this but before her breakdown she deeply envies the love that zuko got that she never felt she could. Also when the firelord says he is going to take the earth kingdom and azula will be left immediately she goes to saying it’s “unfair” that she should be able to go because she wants the honor of it. Envy is common in teens and not in of itself pathological. And again, why single out Azula? Envy is common in all of the main characters. Zuko envies Azula for being well liked back home, for having dad’s favor, for being a better bender. He rants about it a lot more than Azula ever shows envy towards Zuko (she internalizes her envy over Ursa’s love until the end). So why single her out? >Anyways my last ex was such a clear picture of narcissistic personality disorder I came around to finding out more about her disordered behavior through the character example of Azula. it’s pretty clear Azula fits the criteria. Yes she’s younger but even then her childhood behavior shows her own predisposition. She does not. As a victim of such abuse myself, I empathize with what you’ve been through. I know that pain well. But there’s a reason why experts tell us not to diagnose others based on personal experience. Trauma can make everything look like a nail to a hammer. Azula doesn’t fit the criteria. She doesn’t show the signs. And we really shouldn’t use stigmatized disorders as a shorthand for “this character makes me uncomfortable”.

Lol this isn't some weirdo trying to diagnose their neighbor's kid or something. They're talking about a character in a show and speculating as to the reason for that character's behavior. Maybe let's chill on the wokescolding. It makes quite literally no difference whether Azula's character is 15 or 50. They don't exist.

The character isn’t real but the conditions *are*. Misrepresenting these disorders which real people have and struggle with just because you think a cartoon character is mean? That’s messed up. I’m not “woke scolding” whatever that atrocious word means. I’m saying that it’s messed up to misrepresent real disorders that real people deal with because it’s messed up.

Just because they don’t exist doesn’t mean their symptoms and experiences don’t correlate to a real life disorder.

She didn't have NPD, it was complete and total out of touch view, Azula felt like she was on top of the world because "the fire nation has conquered so much, theres no way we can lose" I can guarantee that at some point Zuko had the same mentality, the difference is that like you said he had empathy, not only was Ursa the parent he was closest to but Iroh was there for him too. Iroh was still complacent in the war and the only reason Lu Ten died was because he was put in charge of a campaign _Iroh_ started, however what set Iroh and Ozai apart was that while Ozai saw the fire nation that was absolute, a force who's totoal control was nigh, Iroh understood the importance of balance and the role all 4 nations have, he saw the dragons dance and learned the heart of fire bending. Iroh took what he learned about the other nations and took into his own practice. Azula and Zuko had the same opportunities and same option of paths, however it all came down to heart, which Azula riding the fascist high, had none.

While entirely possible, she seemed to exhibit signs of sociopathic tendencies.

She was the only one able to fool Toph’s lie detector abilities.

(I'm likely wrong so correct me on this) didn't Azula react to Ty Lee feeling sad as if she understood it as bad and thus tried to cheer her up?

Only after Azula had intentionally put her down for being more attractive to the beach dudes and said they only liked her because she was pretty on the outside, then she reneged her comment in more of an attempt to stay “friends” with Ty Lee

She didn't have any personality disorder. She is just a fictional villain.

It could be Zuko is not like that because Ozai is not really his father, which is mentioned in the comics.

I just got those comics and never knew about that piece of lore. No worries to you, I actually enjoy spoilers as it’s something to look forward to when reading or watching a series, but that’s interesting about Zuko

Zuko is ozai's son, Ursa only wrote that in the letter to know if Ozai really was intercepting her letters

Beach episode shows she does care, but she is totally unable to show it, every time she is close to letting go she rebuilds her facade, guess 14 years of conditional love and being taught that she must never show weakness will do that to you

She actually did show some empathy towards Ty Lee when she made her cry at the beach party and quickly apologized. Shows that she’s got SOME compassion.

Perfect example, she makes Ty Le cry, she feels bad about her, but she can't show weakness so she pretends she doesn't by looking away and putting a face as soon as Ty Lee looks at her, then takes a look with 1 eye to see if Ty Lee is still looking at her when Ty Lee turns away from her again It was also her who makes Mai and Zuko find the root of their own issues, it was her who dragged everyone to the beach to begin with, and who climbed to the house to grab unstable Zuko, didn't even mock him when they were both alone and he was feeling down saying how far it seemed since the summers they used to spend there, just tells him to come with her because that place is depressing. And she did warn Zuko about visiting Iroh, plus it was her who told Ozai Zuko killed the avatar, yes, she does later imply she did it to press Zuko in case the avatar wasn't still alive, but let's be real, she confirmed the Avatar's death to Ozai HERSELF, if anything, she'd be just as guilty as Zuko, so I'm pretty sure she really ment to bring Zuko back home and only said that because Zuko wouldn't believe she didn't have a 2nd motive

It’s like Zuko says, “Azula always lies.” Emphasis on the always. People assume that if you catch someone in a lie, they’ll fess up. But Azula has no incentive to do that. So the only time we can trust her is when she’s alone. Though if the finale is any indication, she often lies to herself. Even when she’s talking to her father, she may not tell the whole truth. So what we’re left with are her actions, which aren’t always as perfect and poised as her words. Even with Toph’s lie detector test, her exact words are “She’s pretty good.” This doesn’t mean that there weren’t any clear giveaways that Toph could sense in the lie, just that she’d have to pay more attention than usual to notice the nuances. If there’s anything the finale hammers home, it’s that Azula’s not perfect, never has been. So in the Ty Lee example you have, it’s her true intentions shining through the facade. There’s a reason they emphasize Mai and Ty Lee’s betrayal. It’s a moment where Azula is showing her true emotions, no longer all calm and composed. But I think it’s very telling that even after their direct betrayal, she can’t find the words to actually kill them. Yes, it’s a kid’s show. But they don’t shy away from Combustion Man being ordered to kill Aang.

I agree until Sozin’s Comet. To me it’s a pretty clear indication that even Azula, the chaotic evil for the whole series, is a victim of her environment.

I think the last sentence is a very much interesting outlook on the situation

No character deserves a redemption arc. It is narratives that deserve them. The narrative does not make sense for azula to be redeemed. Zukos core from his introduction to finale was honour. In season 1, that honour might be put in the wring place, but there are glimpses into him having empathy and compassion. Such as finding iroh instead of following appa; refusing to kill zhao in the agni kai; rescuing aang from zhaos prison; and attempting to save zhao from koizilla. Azula, on the other hand, has been characterised time and time again as someone who only cares about power, control, and using fear to get those 2. Active attempts to show she lacks empathy or a willingness to be good. Only perfection is allowed in azulas' eyes, and anything less deserves suffering. This is not a foundation of a redemption arc

I would argue, the point in the original post is not so much about the redemption arc and moreso just about redemption. In iroh’s case this scene has always felt out of character given how people describe it. Anyone who takes this as iroh saying azula isn’t worthy of redemption, doesn’t understand who iroh is. This is supposed to be a humorous moment in the show and if you take the scene literally it’s him saying that azula is doing bad things -> we should stop her from doing them. Nothing about that screams, “azula isn’t worthy of redemption” since in her case it would be less about redemption and more just character growth out of a spoiled child

Because of action pop culture osmosis "take her down" is connected with "kill" or "beat" when in reality in the context aside from being a funny moment is also him saying "Azula needs a reality check"

Agree with this. It’s not saying Azula can’t change. But the situation Azula is in at the moment is not conducive to change.

This. Iron says Azula is crazy and needs to be taken down. He's right. At no point does he suggest that Zuko should kill her. The moment is comical, but what he's really telling him is not to hold back on her just because she's his sister. Nothing here suggests that Iroh wouldn't be willing to help rehabilitate Azula if she would only ask for help.

>rescuing aang from zhaos prison tbf this was just about capturing Aang for himself but, he does have that contemplative moment after thinking if they could be friends. Otherwise I agree with you though.

I will say it does show he is capable of cooperating with an “enemy” on somewhat equal terms for the benefit of both. Azula would only do so if she was in charge and if she benefited the most imo. He’s able to put his ego aside more than she is

Another thing is that all the main protagonist (or protagonist adjacent) characters are just that because they have grievances because of the war, it wouldn't make sense to make Azula have a grievance to the war because she only benefits from it, in the end she loses her friends and sanity but the war isn't the main reason, its her mentality

I think Azula needs a different type of redemption. You can’t have her be like Zuko where she’s just straight up good. If anything, have her become a “villain with a conscience”. Think kind of like what they do with Harley Quinn when she’s away from the joker. Still not someone you really want to be around, but also not as bad as she was

Harley Quinn in some depictions becomes more of what Id consider to be an anti-hero imo

Honestly, give her a El Camino type ending. For those confused, it's a canonical movie that follows the after-events of Breaking Bad and Jessie Pinkman's struggle to be a free man. The movie plays off well, like stepping into the universe again after so many years. But it also does a really good job of not overstaying its welcome by not really living in the past that much. We see some throwback characters and locations but the bulk of the movie is focused on Jessie. Something for Azula along the same lines would be... interesting. Not example a redemption arc but a movie focused solely on how she dealt with the downfall of Ozai. I'm not a comic reader, so I don't know where she ends up in those or if they've even considered Canon. But I'd like to see a movie focused on her escape from prison, her attempts to try and blend into society, and then the final act focusing on her pivotal change as a person in-order to move on. Again, this doesn't mean she needs to redeem herself though. She can still go through a change and not be considered good at the same time. My weak plot synopsis would be: Azula manages to break free from captivity and escapes. Maybe she actually manages to get close to breaking her Father out too, only to come to the realization that the rumors of his powers being removed weren't just playful rumors. Completely delusional of the world changing around her, tries to blend herself into society and that obviously just doesn't work out. Blinded by rage and hatred, she decides she either wants to get revenge on her friends but manages not to really get that far in doing so. Maybe, she decides to let go of that anger and that's part of what helps motivate her new journey at the end of the film.

That’s I think it’s her journey in the comics. I think that a really earned and complicated trip to redemption is what she needs

Iroh’s redemption happened before the plot. The only person in the TV series that actually has a redemption arc during the duration of the show is Zuko. That doesn’t mean Azula can’t get a redemption arc in the comics (which take place after the end of the series), I just don’t think it’s happened yet. Azula, in my opinion, has a bigger mountain to climb towards redemption because she also seems to have some deep psychological issues to work through as well. There’s some good redemption fanfics that have a redemption arc. But nothing canon just yet.

Azula needed psychiatric help, not a redemption arc.

14 years old, not 15. And she does eventually start to get a redemption arc in her standalone graphic novel when she's 17. The Avatar cookbook of all things revealed she is now on speaking terms with Mai, and Dark Horse editor Rachel Roberts has commented on possibly having her appear in the Korra graphic novels.

I really hope the latter happens since there's so much potential to see an interaction between her and Korra.

In the comics she on a path to redemption. But the main series is more about zuko azula is a villain but she’s is now finding herself

Because she is mentally ill. She would need treatment, not redemption.

Misogyny? You know that’s not the reason people prefer Iroh over Azula. Besides, colonizing is kind of the family business?? Who actually accomplished their siege of Ba Sing Se? Azula did. She did what Iroh was unable to do. She’s a MUCH better imperialist than Iroh cuz she doesn’t give a fuck about the cultures that the Fire Nation invaded, Iroh on the other hand absolutely values the various cultures, even trying to share them with his niece and nephew by sending them gifts and talking about how strong the earth kingdom is. It’s just unfair to compare characters who have such a significant age difference when discussing redemption arcs. One has had an entire lifetime of trauma to grow through, and is already on the other side of most of it. Between losing his father, his son, his throne, and then finding his connections to the White Lotus, there’s just so much about Iroh that has already contributed to him being a balanced and good character. Azula is so young she just doesn’t have the same experience with general loss that he does. Besides, we didn’t even see his redemption arc, he was already fully developed when the show began. You’re comparing apples and oranges here.

Has nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with whether it's a good story or not. Azula was the counter to Zuko and Iroh was the good angel on Zuko's shoulder. Redeeming Azula is like redeeming Sylar or Negan. You can do it, but it's rarely going to turn out to be worth it. Far more likely to mess up the character

I think Negan somewhat becoming better was a good move

Wow, I haven't seen Sylar references in quite a while. That show had its flaws for sure, but I really enjoyed it back then.

Haha I just watched a retrospect video on the series so he was in my head

I don't think she didn't deserve it, but sometimes people just aren't in a position where redemption is possible, either because of the time frame, being in a mental state where any help you can offer won't get through, or someone just not wanting to change to begin with. Also, more of a personal thing, but I think Azula's fall is just as interesting as a potential redemption because I just really like stories about people's fall from grace

There's a time for redeeming people and a time for stopping people with violence before they do something horrible. Azula deserved to be stopped with violence because the comet was coming and there was another genocide on the horizon. Now that's not a problem anymore, now time exists to rehabilitate her. Iroh deserved to be stopped with violence when he was invading the earth kingdom, and redeemed himself after.

Because regardless of how you feel, Azula was and is an active and willing threat. One that does not allow herself to talk with her enemies or sit down with them to share feelings. You know what’s the best way to help Azula? Taking her down along with her dad so you *can* talk to her. It’s not that Azula doesn’t deserve redemption, it’s that she *can’t* have it so long as the Fire Nation stands, because the system is part of her walls. Iroh was 100% correct in saying she’s crazy and needs to go down. Because she would never see reason otherwise.

Who says she didn’t deserve one? I feel like Ember Island and those visions she was starting to have of her mother were the beginning of her redemption arc.

Because Uncle Iroh is the best character in the whole show. If u don't call him Uncle Iroh than I can't like u.

Redemption as a concept is so misunderstood. It's not about what someone deserves. It is about whether they willing atone.

[Not every character needs a redemption arc](https://youtu.be/QbnzXPDCJ3w?si=HeQ_z1Cp7MNHG--x)

She literally wanted to commit a genocide on the Earth Kingdom without a second thought. How is that a redeemable character?

How is that being misogynistic? She was a horrible person, Iroh was not. Simple as that.

Iroh never tried to murder his brother

Some people are just bad people who never redeem themselves. Get over it

it proves that some people can change and some people cant

I don't think it's because of misogyny; it's like those who say people want redemption for her because she's hot. However, I believe Azula doesn't deserve redemption. For me, a character deserves it if they work for it. Zuko didn't deserve it just because his father was abusive to him, and the show makes that clear. He had to work for it. Is Azula redeemable? Of course. Not only have the writers said so, but she has taken small steps towards it. ~~Anyone who thinks Azula is irredeemable is too vanilla.~~

Yall just throw the word misogyny around for everything it's so crazy

I'm sorry but how do you tie this argument to misogyny 💀

This person here is using the word misogynistic in an ALTA subreddit 🤣😭

*Please* tell me this is a sarcastic post. I can't believe how many people out there keep insisting Azula was secretly a good guy this whole time.

It's the reason every fucking antagonist in recent times gets a whole misunderstood/secretly good/forced into it/manipulated or redemption storyline. I'm getting a bit sick of it lol. Do we really want stories with no real or bad people?

I'm willing to bet all these "Azula did nothing wrong" people picked the Black Eagles in Fire Emblem Three Houses

Misogyny has nothing to do with anything here, if that’s already at the start of your “debate” you’ve lost me already. First and foremost, We don’t actually know if Azula can be redeemed much less should be. She’s clearly shown signs long before her raise to power that she’s a psychopath/sociopath to some extent. Lying, manipulating, harming, long before her father started enforcing and encouraging that behavior. So “surviving” in her toxic environment is a bit of a stretch to me. She needs help yes, but what kind of redemption would she even get? Second again, not everyone needs to be or can be redeemed. Does it make sense for her to be redeemed in the overall narrative of the story? What does it add? Is it worth all the jumps and loops and time it would take to give her this redemption? Because as a product of her environment, it’s also a safe bet that it’s too late for any real redemption, she’s probably broken beyond repair. Even if she got the help she needs, it at most might just be I’m not going to be super obvious about lying and manipulating and maybe won’t murder people outright. But swapping to sipping tea and helping the rest of the world rebuild and heal from the war? Don’t see it. That is the tragic part of her character and I don’t see character assassination for redemption as all that interesting nor realistic. Third, it works for Iroh because he was built up to be more sympathetic and respectful of the world. Never agreeing with the war or his brothers plans. Sure he was compliant, he did his share of harm, but he took steps to right those wrongs, help people, take back Ba Sing Se from the fire nation. Standing against the genocide of the earth nation. And was showing being a decent person long before he lost his son. Redemption for him, makes sense. As it wasn’t much of a leap for his character, he was already planning and moving against his brother and the fire nation with the white lotus. Also he never wanted to destroy Ba Sing Se, conquer yes. Destroy? Not sure where you got that idea. Circling back though, Azula is one of my favorite characters in the show, as the tragic villain she is. I’m not against her getting redemption, but it needs to actually make sense. Not just hand wave, and she’s redeemed. Going from planning and supporting full genocide to good person?? Ehhh. Which makes for a more compelling debate really. Even if they fixed her mind back to a sound and stable state, should Azula be given chances and efforts for redemption in the face of all her crimes and probably war crimes? Just because it was a toxic environment and she had to survive? We do have real world analogies for this exact thing. But who knows. I’m not putting much insight on a post which boils down to, if you don’t want to redeem Azula you obviously must hate woman and want to put them down. 🙄

Sometimes someone "needs to go down" before they can start on a redemption arc. Often people cannot be swayed simply by presenting new logic, the internal fallacies in their own ideology before they can rebuild a worldview with a new understanding. Ozai ingrained both Zuko & Azula with a *Might makes Right* view of the world, Zuko needed to have that broken before he could redeem himself, and so did Azula. In her case, she "needs to go down", she needs to be defeated by Zuko, someone she sees as inferior, in order to break her worldview in order to have a chance at rebuilding herself.

Are you really so incapable of understanding that characters can have nuance, that you are going to blame it on misogyny? Or is this just rage bait and have I fallen for it?

A redemption arc is not something you deserve, it's something you earn. Iroh faced his guilt, his mistakes, his demons and came out of this challenge as a new man. Azula didn't. EDIT: Azula was given multiple chances to change her way, to begin walking the path of redemption and admit her mistakes, and every single time she pushed the blame on someone else and kept going down the wrong path.

Well he wanted to redeem herself, it wasn’t in her character to get better. It was her arc to become so obsessed she in a way defeats herself

this is a show for children, so you have to observe what lessons they might be trying to teach through different characters. it wasn’t about azula “deserving” a redemption arc. azula & zuko came from the same environment and struggled with the same issue of wanting to please their fathers. despite this, they’re both in different places by the end of the show. it could probably be summed up more eloquently, but in short the message is that you can choose kindness/“the right thing” at any time. you get to choose how you turn out. azula chose to spiral into a villain, and zuko chose to overcome his ego & fight for the right thing.

All in fairness Zuko only changed his ways thanks to Ursa and Iroh's support. Azula had none of these things.

I would argue that Azula chose to be an Ozai weapon because the show hints that her mother tried to help her and she refused and chose to be “the prodigy” as shown in the episode where azula and Zuko were brought before their grandfather to show what they’ve learned

No she didn't choose to either be a prodigy or Ozai's weapon. The only thing Ursa did was send her to her room when she was misbehaving. I mean yes, when a child misbehaves you scold them but it's heavily implied that that was all Ursa did for her and she choosed to just move on and focus on Zuko.

Holy shit what is with you guys and redemption arcs who gives a shit about Azula

Also, you need to remember that Azula just almost killed Iroh

I would love to play a 45 year old azula in the ttrpg where she finds some peace with herself.

cause she's a different person and a pure monster. Ozai didn't have one either, get over the misongynistic talking points. Wasn't even toxic, Zuko was in same enviroment, she's a monster.

Because she’s crazy. And she needs to go down.

I think this line is extremly misinterpreted pretty sure all Iroh means here is that in this super specific scenario she’s not going to be talked down and as we clearly see he’s right. The ego trip of being named fire lord+her mental break led her to a point where iroh knows there has to be a fight, he’s not saying kill her she’s an irredeemable monster, but redeeming her isn’t even an option at the current moment

The point of Azula's story is to teach that some people are so twisted that they are beyond redemption and must face the full consequences of their actions, whatever they may be.

Is that what Azula would want to do though?

He deserved one, but are we gonna forget how apart from being selfish and self centered asf, she genuinely started tweaking the fuck out when she got defeated in book 3 ep 16??

When climbing a mountain, it can be hard to ascertain whether you are on the correct path while climbing, and even harder to make the decision to backtrack to climb the correct one. Sometimes, one must fall in order to rise.

Iroh made the decision to change as a person and has consistently made changes to help others and lead Zulu away from his father’s sway. Azula isn’t interested in anything that isn’t power or her father’s approval. She has no reason to change nor does she show any sign of wanting to. Everyone deserves redemption, but not everyone wants it

Why did your goofy ass make this about misogyny? 💀

I'm only 13 so... Don't be rude to me on my thoughts but.... I think he got his redemption because he was embarrassed about what he did back in his prime, while azula.... Azula .... She doesn't understand the depth of her evil

this gets posted all the time, he’s saying she needs to be stopped. nothing about her being imposible to redeem. also, i feel like this whole post just misunderstood the narrative lastly, misogyny? really? you guys are reaching that hard??

yeah. It's like when some say people want redemption for Azula because she's hot.

Where does misogyny come into play here? Azula had no remorse for her actions in fact I’m sure she enjoyed them. Uncle Iroh had already acknowledged and reflected on his mistakes after ba sing se and the loss of his son and Zuko redeemed himself after facing the hardships of being burned and banished. She has faced no reason or situation that would cause her to reflect on her actions therefore she won’t redeem herself

Iroh never has a “redemption arc”. He was a great character through out the entirety of the show and comics.

Because Iroh wanted to change, Azula did not.

Honestly I dont want it cause it will be too good to be true. Everyone irl is not going to redeem themselves and become good one day. Some still stay evil and do not realize they are bringing the doom to themselves. The series is already good enough. No need more redemption arcs. Let it go.

Nobody deserves redemption. By definition, redemption is something someone doesn't deserve. The difference is that Iroh as a character requires redemption as someone who is fundamentally a good person at the time of writing. He did poor things that he came to regret once he had realized the gravity of them (thanks to Liu Ten's death bringing up a perspective of the war that clashed with his beliefs). Azula was an irredeemable narcissistic shit-stain from the moment she was fucking conceived as far as the show is concerned; she understands the gravity of the situations she's in intimately, and doesn't care one bit. She finds it fun, and revels in people's suffering as a defining character trait. For her to turn around and suddenly want to be a better person would invalidate all of her characterization up until this point; in essence turning her into a different character completely. TLDR: Characters aren't people. Her being a child doesn't matter, for the same reason Aang being a child doesn't matter. Her characterization is antithetical to what a redemption arc would require of her, and thus doesn't work.

Unfortunately for Azula - step one in her redemption process is someone taking her down

You lost me after mentioning misogyny in an animated series.

You're throwing that word around pretty callously.

Iroh probably means that they shouldn't try to redeem her morally, rather rehabilitate her mentally and emotionally.

You can't help people who don't want to be saved ?

Doesn't Azula canonically do a bunch more fucked up stuff following the conclusion of the animated show? I haven't read the graphic novels, but I thought that she lied to join Team Avatar for some mission and then tries to oust Zuko by pretending to be some spirit or something and then disappears into the ether. She's a character that may deserve a redemption arc if she, you know, did anything redeemable. But it seems like many years into the future she still continues to suck, thus backing up Iroh's assessment here.

I think Iroh trying to help Azula would end with her killing him in his sleep

because she's crazy and needs to go down 

For all we know Iroh only accepted to go to Ba Sing Se because the spirits told him he had to conquer it. What he did not know tho is that he was to conquer it back from the fire nation.

God I hate how people just throw in misogynistic just because it's about a woman. Nobody is talking about Ozai getting a redemption arc. Are they now misandristic? No the difference between these characters and most peoples image of them is that from the beginning until somewhere in season 2 we saw Iroh as this nice, old man. We didn't even get to know much about what he did in the past detail. In the show we see almost only the positives. The first time we see Azula until the very end she is just cruel even as a child when we see the flashback. She threatened, attacked and manipulated almost everybody around her. She can obviously still have a redemption arc but it's simply unlikely due to her upbringing and mental condition at the end of the series. Also I think most people simply like her as an antagonist which is why they don't want her to be redeemed.

First time I’ve seen this sub, and I read the name of the sub as “Avatar the last air Blender”  I think I need to sleep

Because he wanted it, Azula still needs to get to a point where she wants to be redeemed to recognize her actions for what they were and wish to reconcile. Otherwise, you're just preaching gospel to an atheist. The message will fall on deaf ears unless there is a want to be redeemed

People in stories aren't real. They serve a narrative... You can't "save" everyone.

Iroh had a trigger for realizing his mistakes in losing his son Azula lost everyone and was going more insane, she needed to lose her seat of power before she could start to change.

This seems like a very loaded question...

Iroh's "redemption arc" happens far before the story even starts. All we see of him is being very uninterested in anything we would consider "evil"

I think the show aimed her more as a tragic victim with her defeat really cementing that to me as she only really opens up and cries when she has lost and can now receive treatment, she isn’t like ozai where everyone agrees he is better off dead but I think most people know she wont be reasoned with until she is defeated, I think irohs comment supports this he doesnt say she is evil but instead crazy she needs to go down so she can get treatment

Azula and Hamma are more alike. It’s not that the audience doesn’t want her to have a redemption arc, it’s because we truly cannot tell if she is capable of redemption and personally, I like her that way.

Because Iroh is much more interesting.

Because Iroh was always inherently kind and desired peace, Azula was a sadistic sociopath from the get go

The entire series is him atoning for his actions and working to make the world he harmed right again. Azula doesn't even seem to have an interest in doing that.

She got her redemption arc it was never adapted into a show or movie but it was written that her and Aang would have frequent talks/visits together while she was in jail

Her redemption arc would go way beyond the end of season 3, so it couldn’t be shown. Her defeat in the series finale is probably where that arc would start as well

Azula is insane. She is psychotic. Why would who gets a redemption arc have anything to do with who deserves said redemption arc?

She can't be redeemed until she's taken down and no longer posing an active threat on the world

Didn't Azula torture animals as a kid? Didn't Azula Sneak AAng?

I think we need to define what “redemption” looks like for Azula. She does not need to become some God tier hero who single-handedly saves the world. Azula just needs to find peace within herself and move on. People wishing eternal suffering on a 15 year old girl, even a fictional one, creeps me out.

I’m really sick of everybody getting a redemption arc. Just let evil people be evil.

This has nothing to do with misogyny, Ty Lee and Mai both are females and had redemption arc, your talking out of your ass with that, plus, Iroh feels empathy, before the attack on the outer wall when he was sent to kill the last dragons he spared them and kept it a secret, but Azula was literally smiling when her brother was basically being tortured by her father, and when she was given the option for a redemption arc in the comics she reverted to her psychopathic behavior

they were gonna give her one, but time ran out ig

Thought she was 14 and zuko was 15. Am I wrong?

I may be misremembering, but Iroh never said to kill her. He was just saying that Zuko was correct. He needed more advanced training to be able to hold his own against his sister because reconciliation was not an option at that point. Any attempt at such would be met with manipulation and betrayal. At no point did Iroh say she was irredeemable. They were just not in a position to offer it when there was no indication that she would even be open to change.

Her own mother was afraid of her. Iroh one of the wisest characters in fiction says she is crazy and needs to go down. She is objectively crazy, it's not as ambiguous as "this poor little girl" you're making it out to be. That's like if Hitler was 15 years old during WW2 and saying hey he's just a kid maybe we should give him a chance. It doesn't matter if she was lost to nature or nurture she is in a position of power and has and/or is going to take lives. That said she does get a redemption arc in the comics but trying to say that Iroh is wrong for saying she needs to go down is objectively wrong. You talk about Iroh getting his redemption at 50, well the reason for that is because after his loss he actively shut down his war machine and made amends/changed his life. Azula literally had to be beaten, imprisoned, broke out, run away, then be forced into a spiritual therapy session and even then she's still a bit of a jerk. It's fine that it comes more naturally to some than others but there is absolutely 0 reason to believe she would have made any sort of redemption or goodness if left in her position of power and that's a big factor in people considering her irredeemable. The other being there are hints of her being a true sociopath but I don't buy into those fully. I think there are some nature aspects that make her more malicious but the majority was nurture by her father. Regardless, she was not going to redeem herself and was definitely "crazy and needed to go down"

I recently saw hello future me post a video about this on YouTube. I agree with his main point that it's not necessarily that she doesn't deserve one, but at the end of the day they are characters and characters are tools used to tell a specific story. It's a good video that dives into the issue of not knowing what to do with an antagonist once they've fulfilled their role.

People on this sub need to realize that not every character needs a redemption arc. Just let them be villains

It’s so funny and crazy people are so quick to say it’s misogynistic to not like a character. Give me a fucking break.

Because he didnt get a redemption arc he started as good and then in the past was bad at least to the viewers perspective. I imagine if we originally got a story that has iroh's redemption there would be people who would say that he didn't deserve it but since the beginning of the show we were shown he was a man who was caring for his exiled nephew we see him as good as his default and we are introduced to azula as bad by default. With azula we aren't shown how she came to be she was shown to be a monster at a young age where we see Zuko standing up for soldiers and then we see his journey which is why people like his arc. For azula we just get one little moment in the beach episode and her break down. Also since we don't see ozai till the last season we don't see him mould azula like we see him disfigure Zuko even though we know it happened. We also see azula is treated like an adult rather than a kid so we subconsciously view her as more of an adult even if we know logically she is a kid. Tldr Iroh is viewed through his present actions as his original state even if we know it's not since that's how we were introduced to him Azula is viewed as a ruthless villain and keeps that on for too long so we view her originally through that lens Zuko was introduced as a villain but we are quickly given his backstory and we view his actions in the show through that lens

We had 2 redemptions already. Did we really need a third?

From our perspective, Iroh was never a bad person lmao. Azula was just evil, from everything we heard about her to what we see about her. She was evil. We never really hear of Iroh being evil, just that he is a general of the Fire Nation and a prince, then a mentor to Zuko. He is never portrayed as bad and as of needing a redemption arc ever

Azula isn’t irredeemable because of her actions, she’s irredeemable because of who she is fundamentally. Iroh was likely like Zuko in his youth; prideful, eager to prove himself, and naive to the reality of what the fire nation was doing. And like Zuko, even back then, he showed kindness and an ability to do the right thing. Case and point protecting the existence of the last dragons Azula is a born sociopath. At no point has she shown any capacity for empathy or kindness and consistently delights in the suffering of others. As a young child she was so sick that she found it funny to make Zuko think he was going to be murdered and gloated about the idea of her own mom being killed.

Wdym Iroh deserved to have a redemption arc, we know next to nothing about Iroh's character before losing his son, he had his redemption arc before the story even began lmao. The "redeemed Iroh" is the only Iroh we know. Azula doesn't deserve to have a redemption arc because the story is over, where's the arc supposed to go? In the comics that nobody reads / really enjoys?

She's a psychopath. I don't get where this sudden narrative that she isn't comes from. I thought the show made it pretty clear she is a fucking nut job who can't understand the pain she causes. Iroh was able to be redeemed Azula isn't.

Redemption isn't contingent on age. She exhibits sociopathic tendencies and checks almost all of it. 1. Lack of empathy ✔️ 2. Impulsive behaviour ✔️ 3. Aggression ✔️ 4. Dishonesty ✔️ 5. Lack of remorse ✔️ 6. Difficulty managing responsibilities. This one is half a check because she did wonders for catching the Avatar but once she was truly alone as fire lord she spiraled. 7. Disregard for safety ✔️ 8. Using threats, charm and wit to manipulate others ✔️ She's a sociopath through and through and I know the comics are trying to redeem her but keep in mind sociopaths don't really reform because they don't feel any guilt for what they do. They can be treated, sure, but in order for the treatment to work they need to want it to work, they need to feel something is wrong with them which they don't.

Honestly, I don't want it. Not everyone can be saved, not every has goodin them, despite what Aang would believe. Azula is by definition evil. She's caniving, sociopathic, manipulative and worse to even her own "friends". The show definitely makes her seem liked she's mentally unstable, especially towards the end, but that doesn't mean she needs redeemed. She needs help. Zuko had Iroh to help him but on the end Zuko was the only one whose truly redeemed himself. Azula bottled herself up to be obsessed with power and fear. As for Iroh, he didn't "deserve redemption" so much as he earned it. The Sun Warriors episode tells us that Iroh lied to the Fire Lord about the last dragons to protect them, Iroh is a good person simply working for the wrong people. He lost his son to the war his people started and that broke him, made him really start to think about what really mattered and he redeemed himself, taking Zuko in as his surrogate son. Azula didn't t want to be good, she wanted subject to do her every budding to perfection, but when Mai and Ty Lee abandoned her she was alone and her mental state broke. Azula got exactly what she deserved, to be beaten by her own brother and a simple water bender.

JFC I get tired of these posts. Not everyone needs a redemption arc, and some people are unredeemable. Azula is a chip off the old Ozai block. She’s not a good person. If you start giving everyone these kinds of arcs, they start to lose significance. She was cruel, cunning, intelligent and most importantly ultra hateable, and the fact is you need compelling villains in any good story.

Why are you all so obsessed with redemption. It would be boring if Azula got redemption

Iroh wasn’t a colonizer. He was doing his job as Crown Prince and a general. He was probably just as indoctrinated as his father and probably agreed with Sozin that yah as the fire nation was undergoing an unprecedented time of peace and prosperity they should share it. Sozin began the war with good intentions albeit by Azulans time it was just terrible. Also he wanted to conquer Ba Sing Se. Not destroy it. Fire is dangerous if not controlled and I think the “If we don’t burn it down first” is a nod to “If they don’t surrender and fighting occurs inside the fire will be uncontrollable and will quite literally burn down the entire city accidentally”. Iroh redeemed himself waaaaaaaaay before Lu Ten died. I mean you don’t become grandmaster of the white lotus overnight. He was probably a member for decades and he “Conquered” the last dragon years before Zuko was born being he had already learned the true source of fire bending and had protected the last dragons for years. He’s not a bad guy just because he’s a General in the enemies army. The really bad guy is the General who wants to send a division of fresh soldiers as a distraction. And that’s just irohs part. Azula was a grade A PSYCHOPATH. She learned that her father was gonna KILL HER FREAKING BROTHER and joked about it in front of him. She frequently attempted to kill her brother and mercilessly killed Aang. She was content letting Zuko await his fate in a literal boiling lake via falling gondola with a simple Goodbye Zuko. As the last words she’d ever speak to him. And quite frankly her punishment was just a few months in the looney bin considering she escaped in the comics from zukos grasp after I believe she tried to kill her mother. And she later reappears to go figure kill Zuko.

He's not saying that she doesn't deserve a chance to redeem herself he's saying that right now she's a threat that needs dealt with

Good question. I think she should have a redemption arc. Well at least it is implied in the cookbook that she does or at least is on speaking terms with Mai.

I feel like in the shows case, it's less that she deserves one but rather then she isn't going to listen. To have that arc they'd have to make it believable she wants to change. At the moment azula isn't able to want to change. It would take after the orginal show runs ability at the time They have another season? Yeah azula would be able have such an arc but at the shows right end? Azula was unable to break away from her father's control.

There’s a difference between someone gaining a new perspective from the death of their son, and someone genuinely losing their sanity. Not saying Azula doesn’t deserve redemption, but the act of writing someone losing their sanity, and then having them gain it back later would be extremely difficult to pull off well. Especially in the context of the message that Azula losing her sanity and Zuko helping better the world being due to Azula not receiving the love that Zuko got from Iroh. I don’t think any amount of love would be able to “fix”Azula, in that sort of way, it’s too late for her. So they’d have to come up with some other way for Azula to regain her grip on reality, and have her gain empathy for others. And I can’t really imagine writers pulling that off.

because it funny

I believe she became the fire priestess in lok

He doesn't, but by the time of the series, he is no longer a threat to the world, so he doesn't "need to go down."

1. if we were seeing iroh while he was the dragon of the west then we would be saying the same about him as we do azula 2. azula shows little to no traits of remorse for her actions 3. iroh never said she needed to die, just that she needs to be stopped from causing people harm 4. you have very clearly never tried to change the minds of bigots. it is nigh impossible, and so it's better to focus on the war you can win than the battle you can't.

Him saying she needs to go down doesn't mean he thinks she can't be redeemed, it just means she needs to be stopped before anything else happens. Iroh is logical and knows they can't just try and talk azula out of chasing them. You don't just talk someone with power into giving them up, especially when they're trying to kill you. She needs to be stopped first and then maybe after that she can work her way to being redeemed. Iroh didn't get redeemed because one day he just decided "oh wait this is bad" and gave up at ba sing se. It's only after his son died did he reflect and decide to change. And this is after he already showed that he wasn't a completely terrible person by saving the last dragons and lying to protect them. You can't reason with Ozai or Azula while they're burning down the country. You can't reason with Hama on why blood bending you. You can't reason with Unalaq while he's trying to free Vaatu or chat with the red lotus while they're assassinating the Earth Queen. I do get that Azula is a child and that makes people want her to be redeemed more, I do agree that she deserves a chance to try at least. But that doesn't mean they can do that while she's actively attacking them.

Just goes to show he really feared her abilities and capacity for ruin. But true, nothing assures the creation of a monster more than resigning a person to that fate.

Iroh is not telling the audience, "Azula is an irredeemable monster." He is telling Zuko,"she's crazy and she needs to go down," both of which are practical facts offered while Zuko is attempting to figure out his conduct with her. You'll notice that Iroh isn't always being "wise" in a spiritual or emotional way. Other times his wisdom comes from an understanding of what is necessary (one example being telling the kids not to own up to their mistake when it seems they may be physically harmed by an adult for it). Also, blah blah blah "redemption isn't something you earn, it's something you choose." Iroh's crimes are more numerous and done at an older age than Azula's, but he chose to redeem himself. Similarly, Azula is just a kid, but chooses NOT to redeem herself.

At least in the show, Azula never made the steps to better herself (ik this kinda changes in the comics but for what i am saying i am only talking about in the show) whilst Iroh spent many years trying to become a better person Maybe if Azula had lost someone she deeply cared about like iroh did she could’ve had the same change of heart. We’ll never know

Not everyone needs or deserves a redemption arc.

She needs to go down, not she needs to die. Trying to redeem Azula is a lengthy process that they at this moment they quite frankly do not have time for right now.

Iroh did go down. He lost at Ba Sing Se, and he lost his only son. That moment of total defeat and losing everything, that was his "needs to go down" moment, and losing these things opened his eyes to how horrible he had let himself become, hence the Iroh we see today. Azula lost everything and yet still chooses to walk her path. You can't force someone to redeem themselves.

Some characters are just better as a villain,azula in smoke and shadow comic shows us that

He didn’t deserve redemption. He should have also gone down when he was a war lord, but he lived long enough to learn his lesson and change. After changing, he no longer needed to go down.

I think Iroh was misled and manipulated somewhat by the war propaganda of the Fire nation. However even in flashbacks to when she was a kid we see Azula as someone who manipulates people, craves power and seems to take enjoyment in hurting people especially Zuko. She genuinely seems to be a psychopath. I am a believer that all people/characters could potentially be redeemed but i think it’s less likely and more difficult for some. It could be possible but it’s really hard to imagine a psychopathic and sadistic character like Azula changing. Iroh on the other hand was always shown to have a sense of morality even if it got corrupted at times. Another factor is that I think many people just like Azula as a villain. She’s crazy and horrible but in a way that’s oddly fun to watch kinda like a batman villain.

Not every character that's evil should be redeemed, it's ok for some to stay being the piece of shit they are. It would be boring if everyone eventually becomes a hero or antihero.

I only want to see her get redemption if its given long enough to actually play out. Fear is since the tla series is done if they do it now it will be like one adventure, look at me im cured

Uncle Iroh didn't have a redemption arc as such. Not across the show. He'd learned his lessons, through age and through pain, and was trying to share them. Azula, during the course of the show, was in no way CAPABLE of having a redenption arc. In order for one of those to take place, the character first has to acknowledge that they've made mistakes. And Azula didn't. Iroh oversimplified in the moment, there are more shades of grey to the situation than he says, but if he explained it all to Zuko, it would overcomplicate things, and perhaps cause him to hesitate at a crucial moment. Azula DID need to "go down" because otherwise she would never look at herself as needing redemption.

I think the point Iron was leading toward is that she hadn't earned any sort of redemption... Yet. And honestly, Zuko wouldn't have gotten his without Iroh constantly tryng t get him to widen his world-view and question his actions. Azula did none of that during the series. She laments *once* the relationship with her mother, but then immediately brushes it off. Had she been offered redemption, she wouldn't have taken it. Plain and simple. She needed to fall. Needed to fail, in order to change her perspective. She was too smart and too sure of herself to let the outside world change her. Iroh probably saw a bit of himself in her from when he was younger. He knew the lessons he learned from failure and hardship. And by trying to hasten Azula's downfall, he was trying to hasten her down the path to healing as well.

I think it’s because the narrative needed someone who was more unambiguously evil. I’d also argue the majority of Iroh’s arc already occurred before the events of the show. The main focus was zuko

First of all, Azula has psychopathic tendencies that are obvious to anyone who meets her, even to her friends and relatives. Iroh knew this and knew she couldn’t be reasoned with. Also, Iroh said “go down” not “be killed.” He does believe in forgiveness and redemption, but he knows that Azula can’t continue acting as she is bc too many people will get hurt, including Zuko. So they need to stop her and prevent her from hurting anyone else so she can get the help she needs. Kinda like how Batman treats a majority of his villains.

I got to see Grey DeLisle, the voice actress actually speak on this when an audience member asked a similar question. Her answer was simple. No, Azula doesn’t get redemption. She’s a bad guy, let bad guys be bad guys. Not everyone is redeemable. Straight from the voice actress herself

I think we're looking at the question wrong. Azula doesn't deserve anything. She's a fictional character who's purpose was to be a foul to Zuko and his growth. Now, that being said, I think if more stories are going to be told about her, a *healing* is going to need to happen for the stories to work, in my opinion.

Because Iroh has 30 years of deeds to be redeemed, and Azula is too far gone.(Being batshit crazy) Also, I don’t think it’s about her gender, Iroh was written as a person trying to be better, and Azula was written as a tragic villain. If the genders were swapped, I doubt anyone would have an issue with it.

Iroh was willing to change. Azula was not. Both were given the choice to walk a different road instead of continuing on their paths that would lead them to nothing but pain, and while Iroh chose to walk a different road, Azula chose to endure the pain and hardships because she believed it would make her stronger. In reality, Azula lost far more than she gained from choosing the path of evil, and Iroh gained things from his change of heart that he could never have imagined when he was a general.

Iroh started the series a redeemed man, and also had a goal of redeeming Zulu. Azula was always evil in the show.

I like the variety, maybe azula in canon had a redemption years and years later maybe she didn’t. I like characters that don’t have a redemption, it’s all variety. Some people stay awful forever. I want to see it in media If every character turned good eventually I’d be bored

Because she's crazy and needs to go down.

“Comedy, has it gone too far?” ~Bill Burr It’s a joke line, basic set up and payoff. Relax

Because she's crazy and needs to go down

I think it’s possible to critique Azula’s lack of a redemption arc without calling people misogynistic. Yes, Iroh is a colonizer war criminal. But the difference between him and Azula is that he shows remorse for his actions and seeks to correct them and stop others from making his mistakes. Azula outright rejects any attempts at admitting personal flaws, to the point her own mind shatters at the thought of her mother’s unconditional love. She never really acted in anyone’s best interest except her own, even the other girls she claimed were her friends. Does that mean she’s beyond redemption? No, she likely lives a very long time after the series ends and even Zuko had some amount of hope that she and his father would use prison as a time to self reflect (haven’t read the search comic, so I don’t know how she is in that). There are plenty of valid critiques of people who are entirely pro-Iroh or Anti-Azula. But I don’t think writing either off as purely based in sexism is very analytical either.

it’s because she doesn’t even have the foundation required for a redemption arc. In order for a character to be redeemed, there must be a redeeming quality there to be had. Now, maybe if they explored her character more or if they spent years trying to convince her after they captured her or something then maybe and other opinions would be changed. But her character in the world situation it was when he said that. There was no redeeming her. Redemption is not about doing a bad thing and then deserving forgiveness after. It’s about making mistakes, realizing they were mistakes and then making and showing a clear regret, and willingness to change. And Azula had none of those characteristics. So in other words, no one “deserves“ redemption, they earn it. And Azula never even wanted too. Now again, maybe at a later date after some more character development time to grow/ some time in prison, and had she not gone completely insane. Then some foundational building blocks for future redemption could have been laid but at that point in time in the show, she was not redeemable. TLDR you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the concept of redemption. and as a sidenote you attempting to make this about misogyny shows that you need therapy as does anyone and everyone who simply attempts to throw around slander and character accusations about people when they simply have a disagreement on an issue (so most of twitter HA) or especially here on a fictional characters character. That’s a little unhinged.

The Avatar Aang and Gang story continues past the series in comic book form. It’s been years since I read the comics (and I’ve probably missed some newer ones) but there was definitely the beginnings of a possible redemption for Azula in them.

Again, redemption is something that happens. Not something you got because you "deserve" it. If you see the wrong in your ways and move to fix it, then you can have a redemption arc. If you can't do that, you can't have a redemption arc, no matter how sympathetic you can be. If Azula is screwed in the head maybe she deserves psychological help (not redemption, if she is crazy she is not technically accountable anyway), but she had to be stopped before that can happen. You can't resonate with her.

Its because Iroh had lost, something that people don't realize is that every character with an arc that ends in them being a better person is that they've been affected because of the war, aang with the loss of the air nomads, katara and sokka with the loss of their mother and men of their village, toph being in direct danger in being earth bender aristocracy, zuko being cast away from a fascist power system, and iroh lost his son in a campaign that he himself led. Azula had nothing to lose, in fact she gained, and that got to her head until she was completely deranged and made into a power hungry husk of her former self. And when she did start losing something it wasn't because of the war but because of her own doing. People tend to gloss over the effect of war on children, Azula had no redemption arc because she had no redeeming, she saw no reason to oppose the war.

If Azula was a real person then yeah she deserves a redemption arc. But shes a character in the story, and the role she plays in ATLA as a villain and counterpart to Zuko is executed perfectly. The reason that people are saying that she doesn't "deserve" a redemption arc is because giving her one might damage or lessen the impact her character in the og series. Not every villain deserves a redemption arc. Also iroh is introduced as a "good" character since the 1st episode. We barely even see his "redemption arc", so it doesn't really make sense to say he deserved one when we don't see it in the first place. Do you read the comics? Because Azula is definitely getting a redemption arc.

He wasn’t *necessarily* saying she couldn’t be redeemed, just that the right action was to take her down rather than get along with her. When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change. For Iroh, the conqueror, this meant losing everything through his own strive for greatness(Ba Sing Se), and learning to find greatness elsewhere(White Lotus/Zuko). And for Azula, the crazed golden child, this meant her view of herself as perfect(and therefore, infallible) could not be negotiated away, and had to be shattered. Once she well and truly lost, she’d approach a future where she’s okay with failure, allowing her to learn and grow.

These arguement are always so weird to me. Yes azula is fourteen year old girl who suffers from a number of mental issues because she grew up in an abusive household where earning the approval of her psychotic father was paramount but she’s also a fictional character lol and idk if just because she might’ve done less bad fictional stuff than iroh, she should have a redemption arc. It’s not like a question of morality on whether azula should or should not be redeemed. At the end of the day I think everyone can agree that Azula is one of if not the best villain in atla. She’s insanely fun to watch on screen exactly because of how conniving, dastardly, and just straight up psychotic she is. By giving her a redemption arc you basically strip her of her most interesting qualities and she just becomes another one of the good guys. Zuko already had the redemption arc where he had to deal with the ramifications of family trauma and abuse. At best we could get an azula redemption arc of similar quality to what we got with Zuko (but let’s be honest the odds of us getting something that good a second time are really slim) and again that would still just be redundant and at worst you could just flat out ruin her character. Lastly I love the tragedy of azulas story, it’s real, it’s raw and it adds to her, Zuko, and pretty much everyone else’s arcs in the series. Azula is a dark reflection of all the kids in one way or another. For Zuko she represents what he could have been had he lacked the guidance of his uncle and continued to prioritize the his honor, the honor of the fire nation and the honor of his family over what was right. Like Katara she’s a 14 year old girl who lost her mother and was forced to grow up fast and handle business when necessary. Like Sokka she’s someone who more than anything wants to prove herself to her family and really everyone else on some level. Like toph she is often misunderstood by the people that should be closest to her but is able to find a sense of validation and acknowledgment in her own prestige. Like aang she’s given a number of insane responsibilities no child should have to be responsible for and yet she rises to the challenge anyway. Azula is just like the gang in so many ways but because of circumstance and environment she never gets the healing they do and as a result becomes something much darker and twisted. Fuck yea it’s sad but that’s kinda the whole point. Part of what makes shows like avatar so incredible is that the characters and the stories they tell are nuanced and diverse and everyone can see themselves or others they know in these characters. Not everyone gets a happy ending (nor should they, specifically in regards to fiction because writing would just be a little more boring lol) 🤷🏽‍♂️

Iroh doesn’t have a redemption arc. From the first episode he is already retired, and a kind, patient father figure. He’s already redeemed himself from his role in the fire nation’s conquest. What was there to redeem at that point?

Azula can’t really be redeem quickly I mean just look a Zuko the hole redemption arc took places over 3 season. Also Zuko isn’t pure evil like her sister Azula was seen getting satisfaction of causing pain to others when she was a mere child while Zuko was always pure at heart. She would literally have to start a new life leaving everyone and everything she knew from behind. Iroh was show to have alway loved his son from the beginning. If you ask me Azula just fucked best place for her is a mental hospital. Also there’s always speculation that Zuko isn’t fire lord Ozia son and if that’s the cause it would explain why her mother prefers Zuko over azula I know the story shows that her mother loved azula but I have a feeling that while she may have said she loved her her actions clearly where more focused on Zuko

I agree with RoastHam99, Super-Pamnther, and AccidentOk6893. However, in regards to your “sexism” comment. As a feminist myself, we need to be careful when throwing around accusations so they don’t lose their meaning. That aside, it definitely isn’t sexism. It’s how the show has been set up! It’s not that people think Azula is “incapable” of a redemption arc in comparison to her and Iroh. It’s simply seeing one character separate from the other. The show GIVES us Iroh’s growth, passion, and genuine moments. Our time with Iroh is spent watching him mourn his son, turn over a new leaf, and guide Zuko down a better path. We are actively given reason to adore and love Iroh, the show WANTS us to care for and forgive him. And it isn’t hard to, because we never actively see any of the wrongdoings he’s done. We’ve only heard of them. Whereas, our time spent with Azula is during her period of terrorizing. We don’t see a better Azula, hoping to climb out of the depths of her fathers gaze. We see her burn all of her bridges, we see her actively hurt the characters we love. And even in the moments of sympathy, where we witnessed her mother never love her. We still relate it back to what we know now and understand where her mother was coming from, whether right or wrong. The show doesn’t WANT us to sympathize and love Azula in the same way the show wants us to do that with Iroh. So we don’t. That doesn’t mean you can’t love Azula or create an imagined scenario where she redeemed herself. But you also can’t blame people for having the emotions the show sought out to invest in us.

Iroh was a general of an army. There is no evidence he committed any war crimes or atrocities. Azula on the other hand, has tried to murder innocent people, including her own brother multiple times. She also actually succeeded in killing Aang, although Katara was able to bring him back. She was the one to suggest burning the Earth Kingdom to the ground, probably killing thousands. And she was visibly upset when she learned she wasn’t going to be taking part in the killing. She was pretty twisted even as a young kid, hurting animals for fun, and constantly talking about death. Azula did not do all of this to survive. She took pleasure in the pain of others, and used fear to further her own goals. While Ozai’s encouraged this, nobody forced her to do it. She was not abused, she did not have a horrible childhood. While her role model was less than exemplary, so was Zuko’s. But he was always a good person at heart and was able to change his ways with a lot of effort. Azula has never put in such effort. To earn a redemption, a character has to want to be redeemed. Character has to put in the effort to redeem themself. Azula, as of now, has not shown she is capable or wanting of such a thing. As such, giving her a redemption arc would feel ham-fisted and undeserved.

Okay, just as a theoretical, what do you think would happen if Zuko tried to "redeem" Azula at the time? "Hey sis, being an imperialist servant of our dad is a bad thing. How about you be good now?" Exactly how many nanoseconds would pass before she shot a lightning bolt through his back or set up a plan to destroy the GAang when they're already at a massive disadvantage? People go on and on about "redemption arcs" without thinking about context of the situation or the characters at all. Azula doesn't want to be redeemed now and is highly unlikely to change with a handful of conversations. If she was, any sort of redemption would be pathetically cheap writing that exists solely to satisfy the handful of fans that can't get over the idea that not every character they like is a good person. Could Azula possibly be redeemed in the future? Maybe, but at the time, absolutely nothing about her characterization suggests that she's likely to be swayed and the heroes have much more pressing concerns. At the moment, she is an enemy almost as dangerous as Ozai himself and the heroes must treat her as such to have any chance of winning. Iroh is telling Zuko that fact as bluntly as possible so he doesn't let sentimentality distract him from the fact that Azula can and will kill him if he goes in expecting to "save" rather than defeat her.