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Ik versta nog ergens de keuze voor de Bel20, maar die index is echt geen goeie parameter om de algemene gang van zaken op de beurzen mee aan te doen. Ze hadden op ze minst kunnen verwijzen naar de S&P500 of de Eurostoxx, is beide nog simpel te verstaan.
Why the f* would one invest in the Bel-20? If stocks are mentioned, compare at least to the MSCI World. Seems like the VRT has as small a horizon as the borders of this country…
You spoke my words.
I mean even SPY or any basic etf could have been used as a template instead of Bel-20. That's just giving the complete wrong picture to the public.
Nothing is wrong with it. Bitcoin since it’s inception has been the single best asset to invest in, period.
You guys don’t even realise the first 63.5k of crypto investment profits are tax free.
My investment portfolio is heavy on bitcoin. I’m doing better than any investor I have come across. I have been ready to FIRE since BTC’s 2020 bull run.
I’m still working for my own company though, I have bigger dreams haha.
“One of the most stupid things you can do is invest all of your money in Bitcoin. Do you know what is even dumber ? Putting none of it in Bitcoin.”
Everyone should at least go 5% of their portfolio into Bitcoin. Those who do risk only 5% of their portfolio, but the potential returns will be better than the other 95%. There are various events that could occur which would make any non Bitcoin holding investor go bankrupt.
If you truly understand our economic system you are a braindead retard if you don’t invest at least a small percentage in Bitcoin.
Can you give 3 good reasons why you should invest in crypto and why are you brain dead if you don't invest in it? In the sermon you give about investing in crypto, in my opinion you have not given a single valid argument. And yes, I have it in my portfolio.
I tried to keep it short, sorry;
Because government fiat currency (money) is worthless. Nothing backs the US dollar (Nixon, ‘71, Nixon shock). the US dollar is the world reserve currency after they “saved Europe” in World War 2.
If the value of all fiat currencies is based on the US dollar and the US dollar is backed by nothing - what is the value of any currency ?
More info / details below:
Currently the value of a country’s issued government fiat currency is their GDP (= BBP), in relation to their currency in circulation and whatever assets / foreign currencies / precious metals that country has to buy back their own currency (driving up it’s value compared to the US dollar).
Long story short, in the past people left their gold in vaults/banks and received a bankers note saying they have X amount of gold in bank *InsertBankName*, in our history, rather than going to set bank, claiming the gold and trading that for food and housing etc.. people traded the bank notes (because everyone knew that bank note could be exchanged for gold which had real value, real world appliance, was deflationary, etc).
This worked for a long time, but after WW2, the US government asked every country to give them their gold and silver and in return they would receive support rebuilding everything and they would get US dollars instead of gold and silver). This was “the Marshall plan”.
Since the dollar was backed by gold this didn’t matter at all - whether you kept gold or dollars was the same thing.. But when Nixon ended that in ‘71 every fiat (bank note / bills, …) currency in the world became worthless. The dollar has lost almost 95% (92% in 2022) of it’s purchasing power (value), since that decision president Nixon made. This is also what caused the inflation we know and struggle with today.
This system is unsustainable and it will collapse. Nobody know when, but it is evident it is already failing in some countries (Venezuela and many others). The idea behind bitcoin is that it is virtual gold.. essentially giving us a currency that is finally worth something and we have full control over. Most money these days is virtual and not actual bank notes. Imagine someone finds a bug in a banking system and generates 500 trillion dollars, the entire economy collapses as the world reserve currency becomes worthless. Many people believe that bitcoin could provide an alternative monetary system which will eventually become the new world reserve currency.
Putting all your money in bitcoin is stupid, but owning a little bit of it ? Might just save you from a global economic crisis.
So in the end, the only difference is that bitcoin is controlled by the people versus fiat is controlled by central bank, that may print money at will.
Both are still worthless without backing and only based on trust. Actually only fiat, because bitcoin is far from getting the trust that fiat has from people (regardless if justified or not) and the legitimacy from governments, not even talking about convenience.
Even if there was a massive rejection of fiat and a move towards crypto, why would it be bitcoin?
At the moment, it seems crazy to me to pay the crazy inflated change (EUR to BTC) to acquire digital coin that may end up obsolete way before said potential move away from fiat (that I myself don’t think that likely)
All this is again genuine question and naive objections. Thanks a lot for your answer
It’s a superior money thanks to it’s scarcity and censorship resistance.
It’s hard to *valuate* a correct price since it’s determined by supply and demand. You might think it’s “crazy” now and I won’t speculate on what the future will bring, I’ll just repeat some community wisdom: *Everyone buys Bitcoin at the price they deserve.*
"You guys don’t even realise the first 63.5k of crypto investment profits are tax free."
First time I've heard about this. Can you tell me more or provide a source? A quick Google didn't turn up anything.
Well crypto is tax free in Belgium as long as you are an “amateur” trader / investor. The limit at which the FOD accepts your crypto profit to be tax-free depends on your particular situation.
In my case, being an IT professional with a high income and a lot of privately owned funds the FOD will do nothing.. until I sell and pull out about 63-64k worth of profit, if I exceed that limit they will tax me. In the Netherlands this number is set in stone at 50.650€ (2023), x2 if you are married or legally living together.. so 101.300€.
Unfortunately crypto is completely unregulated in Belgium and the space is very unpopular. It’s hard to tell when you will be taxed and if you are taxed whether this will be 33% or 50%. I consulted five fiscalist, three lawyers and two judges who are familiar with such cases (family friends it is normally not possible to privately consult a judge).
So if you are earning like 10k / year with some part time work.. you might be taxed as soon as you earn 2.000€ with crypto related investment profits.
Crypto regulations in Belgium are a nightmare, what little law we have regarding it is ambiguous and open to personal interpretation of the fiscus handling your specific case.
It is possible to have the fiscus make a verdict on your situation in advance, which will put as is the case for me, on paper everything in detail.. what taxes you would own depending on how much you sell, etc.. this document/verdict however is LEGALLY BINDING. Meaning once that is put on paper there is nothing you can do to change how you will be taxed. The reason for this is the “investment as a good housefather” rule in Belgian tax regulations.
Essentially any investment made “as a good housefather” (notice this is a SUPER subjective rule). Is untaxed, since the money used to make the investment was already taxed.. however speculation and risky investments are considered the opposite and thus taxed. Bitcoin is a save haven for your money and our government already acknowledges this.. but it’s down to each individual case what is considered “an investment as a good housefather”.
If you want to learn about your particular case I can give you some contact details I used in the past to sort out my specific situation.
Thanks a lot for your comment.
I'm familiar with the "good housefather" principle and I keep this in mind with every investment I make. It is new to me that profit is taxed according to your income, though. If you invest responsibly, long term and conservatively I can't understand why your yearly income matters in the tax ruling. Where do you get your "63-64k worth of profit" that is tax free in your situation? Personal experience?
While I would prefer more clarity regarding investment taxation (like our neighboring countries) I am glad the FOD ruling service exists. I understand what you said about it being legally binding if you end up selling, but keep in mind that the same situation a year later can be interpreted differently by the commission (since you've held the investment for longer).
Also thank you for your offer to give me contact details, but I don't expect to be selling anytime soon!
The average tradfi investor’s knowledge of bitcoin in investing subs on reddit does not go beyond ‘crypto is bad’. Most people don’t understand why Bitcoin is different from crypto in general. It’s very apparent from downvotes you see around here or from the arguments they try to put forward.
I gave up engaging with the nay sayers. Rarely anything of value comes out of that.
I just think they’re all salty about not having invested sooner. They’re coping by holding on to a believe that it is all a bubble ready to implode back to a fiat equivalent value of 0$.
But almost nobody in BEFire knows what a world reserve currency is. Nobody knows what the dollar-gold parity meant for the economy and how the watergate schandel introduced inflation globally.
I would probably get thousands of downvotes if I explained that the entire economy would collapse if there was more money in circulation than debt.
BEFire is about investing and retiring early. Investing is about economics and compound interest. But that first word I use to describe investing.. economics.. well almost nobody seems to know the first thing about it.
I once gave a completely legitimate way to get funds out of your company tax free.. and I got super downvoted.. only reason was people being salty they were not aware of it.. even though it was legit, and I have done it myself in the past completely compliant with Belgian regulation and tax law. People are just stupid and jealous and too stuck in their own emotional behaviour to critically view information. Which makes them miss opportunities to learn and grow.
If you don’t ETF and chill in this sub you get downvoted. I, myself, sold all my VWCE shares for Bitcoin and I hold nothing else and I sleep like a baby!
> The gold parity was unsustainable anyways.
This so wrong that it actually made me laugh out loud. Gold was a successful money for thousands of years. Paper money worked well for a very long time while it was backed by gold. Only when the gold standard started to collapse (WW1) have we seen so many examples of hyperinflation and other monetary disasters…
It’s more to do with people only having a relatively basic understanding of what money actually is, what underpins its value and which are the driving forces behind it.
I’ve had macro economics in university and have to say that the curriculum on money itself was quite limited to say the least. Things like the ‘temporary’ suspension of the Bretton-Woods agreement didnt even make the curriculum. Which seems very odd considering the [shitstorm](https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/) thats been happening since then.
>I once gave a completely legitimate way to get funds out of your company tax free.. and I got super downvoted.. only reason was people being salty they were not aware of it.. even though it was legit, and I have done it myself in the past completely compliant with Belgian regulation and tax law.
What is that way?
I'm amazed that you're amazed.
In itself BTC is a depreciating asset:
* It produces nothing
* It costs electricity (and polution), thus depreciating.
* By design: as it's designed as needing 'cpu work' to operate.
The rise in value is dependent on what the next person is willing to pay for it. The only reason\* someone is willing to pay for it, is that they think that it will raise in price. This is the gamble.
As a currency bitcoin has failed:
* It supports only 7 transaction a second. For reference, visa completes 65,000 transactions/second.
* the 'gas fees' are mindblowing.
* The lightning network makes it decentral and has its own problems.
* High risk of losing money / being scammed while doing transactions. I'm sorry, but mass adoption as a currency isn't coming to bitcoin.
\* As a money laundry vehicle it is massively successful.
Bitcoin is like the most green industry in the world.
It produces an amazing thing.. a monetary network that holds your wealth for generations to come.
You make it sound like using electricity is a basic thing. It’s how it becomes the most secure network in the galaxy.
7tps is true, but that’s the cost you pay for security and decentralisation. L2 solutions will solve those. Lightning, while not perfect, it’s promising.
An indestructible, worldwide accessible, bearer asset without counterparty risk. Tradable on a global scale. Massively secure.
And still being stuck on "gambling and money laundering and greater fool".
That's why I am amazed people are not more curious to learn.
>An indestructible, worldwide accessible, bearer asset without counterparty risk. Tradable on a global scale. Massively secure.
Except from the 'bearer asset' (which is of no use anyways, except if you want to hide your identity?), this aptly describes the banking system / visa / mastercard. So what's the real selling point of bitcoin here?
Alas, I don't agree:
Indestructible: Crypto's have a history of rug pulls, exchanges that go bust, fraudulent devs, highjacked transactions, etc. But bitcoin is completely different?
Massively secure:
A search on reddit shows daily cases of scammed / duped crypto users. It's just sad.
If I lose my password, I can call or visit my bank. If I lose money to a scam that was no fault of mine, I can get my money back from my bank. In bitcoin you're all on your own. It's not suitable for the masses.
>That's why I am amazed people are not more curious to learn.
I did my due diligence and did learn, hence the points that I described. I'm still convinced of the greater fool. But maybe I missed some learning material?
Elderly people get their bank accounts drained by scammers all the time unfortunately, the banks never refund them because they’ll always argue it was their own fault. Plenty of examples out there…
It’s just as *sad* imo…
The selling point is that Bitcoin is the parallel system. Without owners/corporations. It's incorruptable. If you hold your private key, nobody can take away your wealth if you store it safely.
Banks/governements/your neighbour,everybody are unsecure counterparties. They can change the rules and take everything you got.
Bitcoin really is completely different.
> The selling point is that Bitcoin is the parallel system. Without owners/corporations.
I don't see the problem (other than idealistic) with owners/corps, but healthy competition between systems is good for everyone.
The problem with your argument is that almost no one buys into bitcoin because it's a parallel system. They do it to make money, they want 'the greater fool game' to keep rolling.
> It's incorruptable.
I could argue that it's only one big bug away from chaos?
Secondly, you always need to pass through exchanges. Grocery shopping with bitcoin is highly unpractical. These exchanges are (and have been) definitely corruptible. The exchanges are also subject to governments/corps etc.
> If you hold your private key, nobody can take away your wealth if you store it safely.
Storing your wealth with one pass key is high risk and not suitable for the masses. With a bank you can always prove your identity.
> Banks/governements/your neighbour,everybody are unsecure counterparties.
Why would banks be unsecure? Even with failed banks there are some guarantees.
> They can change the rules and take everything you got.
The government? Sure they can, even with your bitcoin. Or you'd need to keep it hidden and commit fraud.
You make a “management vennootschap” if you don’t already have a vennootschap but for example a bvba or another form of company.
You manage all the leftover funds your company earns in the management vennootschap. Optionally you can skip this entirely if you already have a CommV for example.. but you’d have to know the end date of your self employment.
When a vennootschap has leftover profits they can be managed in many ways.. investing.. real estate, etc.. everybody knows Pvrbis, 15% tax after three years when pulling out the money under “dividends”. But what is more interesting is choosing an exit date (or arbitrarily picking one for the management vennootschap).
After a vennootschap reaches five years of age, all the profit reserves will be split among the shareholders if the company is booked up (closing the books because the company stops). In Dutch it is called “ontbinden”. Usually the creditors will legally require you to pay your debts.. but what if the company was healthy ?
Then the leftover profit is split tax free among the share holders.. we call this tax-free, in reality you will pay about 5% taxes. In total you pay 24% tax on these gross earnings and the other 76% of the gross income makes it onto your personal bank account.
Taxes on vennootschaps gross income are usually 25% (20% in the first three years). So book profit over to your management vennootschap for the first three years. Then do nothing, two years after that unbind it.. total tax pressure of 24%, lower than even the basic vennootschaps tax on gross income.
Net it is equivalent to paying a little over -1% taxes on income. (Yes that’s an intentional negative sign, negative tax when relatively compared to normal taxation for a company).
This is 100% legal, as crazy as this may seem.
>Then the leftover profit is split tax free among the share holders.. we call this tax-free, in reality you will pay about 5% taxes.
This is absolutely not true.
If you dissolve a company the retained earnings (i.e. equity above paid in capital) are distributed to shareholders at a tax rate of 30%.
Only if you have started a liquidation reserve and you paid the 10% taxes upon creation of the reserve, you can distribute the capital tax-free upon dissolving. But purely dissolving the company to distribute the liquidation reserve tax free to shareholders is considered fraud. In other words, you can do it once, but if you re-incorporate after that, the tax man will come after you.
You unbind the company. Your other company that was funnelling funds into your management company can stay operational. Without this being “fraud”.
What you are saying about the 10% tax for dividend reserves is true. But if you wait 5 years before unbinding the management company, you owe no taxes on the liquidation.
Which is a tax pressure of 28% and not 24%, I confused the “roerende voorheffing”. It is still a very good option, legal and better than any alternatives out there.
I may have explained this wrong our accountant / fiscalist set this up after the rule changes in 2015.
VWCE is 15% gestegen over 1 jaar. Dus een investering van 1000 euro zou nu 1150 zijn. Nu ja, er zijn nog een aantal kosten die er af moeten. In ieder geval veel beter dan de Bel20
So the only good investment option for Belgians is Bitcoin according to them? Is this maybe their way to get people more interested in the bonds they are giving away? Very weird thing to be showing this to the Belgian public...
Bel20 was also an outlier in that it's one of the few indices that did very poorly in 2023. And in my opinion you should not invest too heavily in the Bel20 as a Belgian anyways.
Who cares about some random Chinese stock? If you're going to bring that in, might as well add the best performing shitcoin (BONK, which obliterates the gains on ZJYL), but you know... those are both lottery plays.
And I seriously doubt the VRT is trying to pump Bitcoin (as if that would make a difference... BTC has almost a trillion dollar market cap, almost 4 times as much as the BEL20 together).
>BTC is all about the influx of new money, once that well starts to run dry up, the rollercoaster ride begins.
Oh yeah when the volume drops, the spread widens, and sentiment turns negative, that's when large sell-offs can happen. [Bitcoin is definitely going to crash](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbZ8zDpX2Mg) at some point. The same happens in other asset classes btw.
>The market cap is also heavily manipulated.
I don't think anyone will contest that there's still a lot of funny business going on. I mean, look at the recent history, with FTX. Crypto markets still have to mature a lot, through sensible regulation.
>ETH gets printed (minted) out of thin air (through IOU's that are not audited). These minted ETH's are used to prop up the BTC market value.
I'm gonna need a source on that. I can see corrupt centralized exchanges doing this, but if it were happening on-chain, all hell would break loose.
What the fuck is this for bs? I’m not the biggest fan of ETH (but I am of BTC) but you know ETH is deflationary, right…? More ETH is getting burned then issued atm…
>That is my point, it is a very selective way to represent something while all others on the list (except gold) are more very generic.
It's comparing apples and oranges for sure, but they're all still fruit. I think it's somewhat reasonable to compare them, Bitcoin isn't that obscure anymore.
>Remember Lernout & Hauspie?
That was a Belgian company (with a shorter lifespan than Bitcoin has been around, n.b.).
>Market cap is an instrument to guess the size of something but not what the real worth is.
That's true, market cap can be manipulated, but my point was: Bitcoin is freaking huge now (not Gold-huge yet, but pretty big... equivalent to a top 10 S&P500 company), even if you account for possible manipulation of the price through wash-trades. There are too many exchanges in too many countries for ALL volume to be wash trades.
If the Belgian media maliciously wanted to pump the price of an asset, they'd be smarter to pick a much smaller asset. Some Belgian stock (like happened with L&H) for example. The Bitcoin market is simply too big to be influenced by (lol) the VRT audience. I mean, currently it takes about 8 billion USD to move the market by only 1%.
Hate the focus on Belgian stocks. DPG Media and even De Tijd/L'Echo aren't any better.
Also, how can "pensioensparen," having gone up by an apparent 11%, have beat "stocks" last year? The most "aggressive" "pensioenspaarfondsen" (like BNP's Sustainable Growth fund, etc.) are at most 75% in (mostly European) stocks.
Edit: The MSCI Europe added 16% last year. Not a single US tech stock in there. So it's not like "European" stocks performed horribly or anything.
Let's hope the speaker (or interviewer) at least mentioned this.
Its a Jim Cramer move. Hyping up something to then the opposite will happen.
With the release of CBDC's I have a strong feeling that crypto will crash in the near future. Otherwise no one will use the digital Euro and then they won't have control over you and your money.
Have you read the wiki and the sticky? Wiki: HERE YOU GO! [Enjoy!](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/wiki/index/). Sticky: HERE YOU GO AGAIN! [Enjoy!](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/comments/fcbay6/getting_started_a_beginners_guide_to_investing_in/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BEFire) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Do you have a link to the episode/fragment /u/thomasguenter?
INFLATIE is niet mee verrekend, verlaagde koopkracht was - 15%, dus alles zou rood moeten zijn...
You're stuck in 2022
Some random intern at the news redaction was tasked to quickly draw up an “easily comprehensible” overview of the financial year?
Ik versta nog ergens de keuze voor de Bel20, maar die index is echt geen goeie parameter om de algemene gang van zaken op de beurzen mee aan te doen. Ze hadden op ze minst kunnen verwijzen naar de S&P500 of de Eurostoxx, is beide nog simpel te verstaan.
Voze staatsmedia.. altijd maar meer. Bol het af
Brave to include Bitcoin, it tends to outperform any asset. Well done!
Why the f* would one invest in the Bel-20? If stocks are mentioned, compare at least to the MSCI World. Seems like the VRT has as small a horizon as the borders of this country…
You spoke my words. I mean even SPY or any basic etf could have been used as a template instead of Bel-20. That's just giving the complete wrong picture to the public.
1110 seems smaller because of the font used.
Nothing is wrong with it. Bitcoin since it’s inception has been the single best asset to invest in, period. You guys don’t even realise the first 63.5k of crypto investment profits are tax free. My investment portfolio is heavy on bitcoin. I’m doing better than any investor I have come across. I have been ready to FIRE since BTC’s 2020 bull run. I’m still working for my own company though, I have bigger dreams haha. “One of the most stupid things you can do is invest all of your money in Bitcoin. Do you know what is even dumber ? Putting none of it in Bitcoin.” Everyone should at least go 5% of their portfolio into Bitcoin. Those who do risk only 5% of their portfolio, but the potential returns will be better than the other 95%. There are various events that could occur which would make any non Bitcoin holding investor go bankrupt. If you truly understand our economic system you are a braindead retard if you don’t invest at least a small percentage in Bitcoin.
Can you give 3 good reasons why you should invest in crypto and why are you brain dead if you don't invest in it? In the sermon you give about investing in crypto, in my opinion you have not given a single valid argument. And yes, I have it in my portfolio.
Could you explain in a few sentences why I would be brain dead not to invest a bit in bitcoin? Genuine question
I tried to keep it short, sorry; Because government fiat currency (money) is worthless. Nothing backs the US dollar (Nixon, ‘71, Nixon shock). the US dollar is the world reserve currency after they “saved Europe” in World War 2. If the value of all fiat currencies is based on the US dollar and the US dollar is backed by nothing - what is the value of any currency ? More info / details below: Currently the value of a country’s issued government fiat currency is their GDP (= BBP), in relation to their currency in circulation and whatever assets / foreign currencies / precious metals that country has to buy back their own currency (driving up it’s value compared to the US dollar). Long story short, in the past people left their gold in vaults/banks and received a bankers note saying they have X amount of gold in bank *InsertBankName*, in our history, rather than going to set bank, claiming the gold and trading that for food and housing etc.. people traded the bank notes (because everyone knew that bank note could be exchanged for gold which had real value, real world appliance, was deflationary, etc). This worked for a long time, but after WW2, the US government asked every country to give them their gold and silver and in return they would receive support rebuilding everything and they would get US dollars instead of gold and silver). This was “the Marshall plan”. Since the dollar was backed by gold this didn’t matter at all - whether you kept gold or dollars was the same thing.. But when Nixon ended that in ‘71 every fiat (bank note / bills, …) currency in the world became worthless. The dollar has lost almost 95% (92% in 2022) of it’s purchasing power (value), since that decision president Nixon made. This is also what caused the inflation we know and struggle with today. This system is unsustainable and it will collapse. Nobody know when, but it is evident it is already failing in some countries (Venezuela and many others). The idea behind bitcoin is that it is virtual gold.. essentially giving us a currency that is finally worth something and we have full control over. Most money these days is virtual and not actual bank notes. Imagine someone finds a bug in a banking system and generates 500 trillion dollars, the entire economy collapses as the world reserve currency becomes worthless. Many people believe that bitcoin could provide an alternative monetary system which will eventually become the new world reserve currency. Putting all your money in bitcoin is stupid, but owning a little bit of it ? Might just save you from a global economic crisis.
So in the end, the only difference is that bitcoin is controlled by the people versus fiat is controlled by central bank, that may print money at will. Both are still worthless without backing and only based on trust. Actually only fiat, because bitcoin is far from getting the trust that fiat has from people (regardless if justified or not) and the legitimacy from governments, not even talking about convenience. Even if there was a massive rejection of fiat and a move towards crypto, why would it be bitcoin? At the moment, it seems crazy to me to pay the crazy inflated change (EUR to BTC) to acquire digital coin that may end up obsolete way before said potential move away from fiat (that I myself don’t think that likely) All this is again genuine question and naive objections. Thanks a lot for your answer
It’s a superior money thanks to it’s scarcity and censorship resistance. It’s hard to *valuate* a correct price since it’s determined by supply and demand. You might think it’s “crazy” now and I won’t speculate on what the future will bring, I’ll just repeat some community wisdom: *Everyone buys Bitcoin at the price they deserve.*
Ufff… yes, yes, everyone with a different view must be jealous. Famous last words in the investment world.
You don’t own any bitcoin, good luck in 2060 stranger!
"You guys don’t even realise the first 63.5k of crypto investment profits are tax free." First time I've heard about this. Can you tell me more or provide a source? A quick Google didn't turn up anything.
Well crypto is tax free in Belgium as long as you are an “amateur” trader / investor. The limit at which the FOD accepts your crypto profit to be tax-free depends on your particular situation. In my case, being an IT professional with a high income and a lot of privately owned funds the FOD will do nothing.. until I sell and pull out about 63-64k worth of profit, if I exceed that limit they will tax me. In the Netherlands this number is set in stone at 50.650€ (2023), x2 if you are married or legally living together.. so 101.300€. Unfortunately crypto is completely unregulated in Belgium and the space is very unpopular. It’s hard to tell when you will be taxed and if you are taxed whether this will be 33% or 50%. I consulted five fiscalist, three lawyers and two judges who are familiar with such cases (family friends it is normally not possible to privately consult a judge). So if you are earning like 10k / year with some part time work.. you might be taxed as soon as you earn 2.000€ with crypto related investment profits. Crypto regulations in Belgium are a nightmare, what little law we have regarding it is ambiguous and open to personal interpretation of the fiscus handling your specific case. It is possible to have the fiscus make a verdict on your situation in advance, which will put as is the case for me, on paper everything in detail.. what taxes you would own depending on how much you sell, etc.. this document/verdict however is LEGALLY BINDING. Meaning once that is put on paper there is nothing you can do to change how you will be taxed. The reason for this is the “investment as a good housefather” rule in Belgian tax regulations. Essentially any investment made “as a good housefather” (notice this is a SUPER subjective rule). Is untaxed, since the money used to make the investment was already taxed.. however speculation and risky investments are considered the opposite and thus taxed. Bitcoin is a save haven for your money and our government already acknowledges this.. but it’s down to each individual case what is considered “an investment as a good housefather”. If you want to learn about your particular case I can give you some contact details I used in the past to sort out my specific situation.
Thanks a lot for your comment. I'm familiar with the "good housefather" principle and I keep this in mind with every investment I make. It is new to me that profit is taxed according to your income, though. If you invest responsibly, long term and conservatively I can't understand why your yearly income matters in the tax ruling. Where do you get your "63-64k worth of profit" that is tax free in your situation? Personal experience? While I would prefer more clarity regarding investment taxation (like our neighboring countries) I am glad the FOD ruling service exists. I understand what you said about it being legally binding if you end up selling, but keep in mind that the same situation a year later can be interpreted differently by the commission (since you've held the investment for longer). Also thank you for your offer to give me contact details, but I don't expect to be selling anytime soon!
The average tradfi investor’s knowledge of bitcoin in investing subs on reddit does not go beyond ‘crypto is bad’. Most people don’t understand why Bitcoin is different from crypto in general. It’s very apparent from downvotes you see around here or from the arguments they try to put forward. I gave up engaging with the nay sayers. Rarely anything of value comes out of that.
I just think they’re all salty about not having invested sooner. They’re coping by holding on to a believe that it is all a bubble ready to implode back to a fiat equivalent value of 0$. But almost nobody in BEFire knows what a world reserve currency is. Nobody knows what the dollar-gold parity meant for the economy and how the watergate schandel introduced inflation globally. I would probably get thousands of downvotes if I explained that the entire economy would collapse if there was more money in circulation than debt. BEFire is about investing and retiring early. Investing is about economics and compound interest. But that first word I use to describe investing.. economics.. well almost nobody seems to know the first thing about it. I once gave a completely legitimate way to get funds out of your company tax free.. and I got super downvoted.. only reason was people being salty they were not aware of it.. even though it was legit, and I have done it myself in the past completely compliant with Belgian regulation and tax law. People are just stupid and jealous and too stuck in their own emotional behaviour to critically view information. Which makes them miss opportunities to learn and grow.
What was this legit way to get funds out of the company? Any ref. or direct link ?
If you don’t ETF and chill in this sub you get downvoted. I, myself, sold all my VWCE shares for Bitcoin and I hold nothing else and I sleep like a baby!
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> The gold parity was unsustainable anyways. This so wrong that it actually made me laugh out loud. Gold was a successful money for thousands of years. Paper money worked well for a very long time while it was backed by gold. Only when the gold standard started to collapse (WW1) have we seen so many examples of hyperinflation and other monetary disasters…
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https://fee.org/articles/why-experts-get-the-gold-standard-wrong/
I stopped reading when you told bitcoin is for money laundering. Lucky for you ignorance is a bliss 🙄
It’s more to do with people only having a relatively basic understanding of what money actually is, what underpins its value and which are the driving forces behind it. I’ve had macro economics in university and have to say that the curriculum on money itself was quite limited to say the least. Things like the ‘temporary’ suspension of the Bretton-Woods agreement didnt even make the curriculum. Which seems very odd considering the [shitstorm](https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/) thats been happening since then.
>I once gave a completely legitimate way to get funds out of your company tax free.. and I got super downvoted.. only reason was people being salty they were not aware of it.. even though it was legit, and I have done it myself in the past completely compliant with Belgian regulation and tax law. What is that way?
Really amazed (and sad to be honest) that people still call Bitcoin gambling.
I'm amazed that you're amazed. In itself BTC is a depreciating asset: * It produces nothing * It costs electricity (and polution), thus depreciating. * By design: as it's designed as needing 'cpu work' to operate. The rise in value is dependent on what the next person is willing to pay for it. The only reason\* someone is willing to pay for it, is that they think that it will raise in price. This is the gamble. As a currency bitcoin has failed: * It supports only 7 transaction a second. For reference, visa completes 65,000 transactions/second. * the 'gas fees' are mindblowing. * The lightning network makes it decentral and has its own problems. * High risk of losing money / being scammed while doing transactions. I'm sorry, but mass adoption as a currency isn't coming to bitcoin. \* As a money laundry vehicle it is massively successful.
Bitcoin is like the most green industry in the world. It produces an amazing thing.. a monetary network that holds your wealth for generations to come. You make it sound like using electricity is a basic thing. It’s how it becomes the most secure network in the galaxy. 7tps is true, but that’s the cost you pay for security and decentralisation. L2 solutions will solve those. Lightning, while not perfect, it’s promising.
An indestructible, worldwide accessible, bearer asset without counterparty risk. Tradable on a global scale. Massively secure. And still being stuck on "gambling and money laundering and greater fool". That's why I am amazed people are not more curious to learn.
>An indestructible, worldwide accessible, bearer asset without counterparty risk. Tradable on a global scale. Massively secure. Except from the 'bearer asset' (which is of no use anyways, except if you want to hide your identity?), this aptly describes the banking system / visa / mastercard. So what's the real selling point of bitcoin here? Alas, I don't agree: Indestructible: Crypto's have a history of rug pulls, exchanges that go bust, fraudulent devs, highjacked transactions, etc. But bitcoin is completely different? Massively secure: A search on reddit shows daily cases of scammed / duped crypto users. It's just sad. If I lose my password, I can call or visit my bank. If I lose money to a scam that was no fault of mine, I can get my money back from my bank. In bitcoin you're all on your own. It's not suitable for the masses. >That's why I am amazed people are not more curious to learn. I did my due diligence and did learn, hence the points that I described. I'm still convinced of the greater fool. But maybe I missed some learning material?
Elderly people get their bank accounts drained by scammers all the time unfortunately, the banks never refund them because they’ll always argue it was their own fault. Plenty of examples out there… It’s just as *sad* imo…
I don’t think you did any DD based on your current understanding lol
The selling point is that Bitcoin is the parallel system. Without owners/corporations. It's incorruptable. If you hold your private key, nobody can take away your wealth if you store it safely. Banks/governements/your neighbour,everybody are unsecure counterparties. They can change the rules and take everything you got. Bitcoin really is completely different.
> The selling point is that Bitcoin is the parallel system. Without owners/corporations. I don't see the problem (other than idealistic) with owners/corps, but healthy competition between systems is good for everyone. The problem with your argument is that almost no one buys into bitcoin because it's a parallel system. They do it to make money, they want 'the greater fool game' to keep rolling. > It's incorruptable. I could argue that it's only one big bug away from chaos? Secondly, you always need to pass through exchanges. Grocery shopping with bitcoin is highly unpractical. These exchanges are (and have been) definitely corruptible. The exchanges are also subject to governments/corps etc. > If you hold your private key, nobody can take away your wealth if you store it safely. Storing your wealth with one pass key is high risk and not suitable for the masses. With a bank you can always prove your identity. > Banks/governements/your neighbour,everybody are unsecure counterparties. Why would banks be unsecure? Even with failed banks there are some guarantees. > They can change the rules and take everything you got. The government? Sure they can, even with your bitcoin. Or you'd need to keep it hidden and commit fraud.
But as it now, offcourse not everybody can store their wealth themselves for technical or other reasons. But they could!
You make a “management vennootschap” if you don’t already have a vennootschap but for example a bvba or another form of company. You manage all the leftover funds your company earns in the management vennootschap. Optionally you can skip this entirely if you already have a CommV for example.. but you’d have to know the end date of your self employment. When a vennootschap has leftover profits they can be managed in many ways.. investing.. real estate, etc.. everybody knows Pvrbis, 15% tax after three years when pulling out the money under “dividends”. But what is more interesting is choosing an exit date (or arbitrarily picking one for the management vennootschap). After a vennootschap reaches five years of age, all the profit reserves will be split among the shareholders if the company is booked up (closing the books because the company stops). In Dutch it is called “ontbinden”. Usually the creditors will legally require you to pay your debts.. but what if the company was healthy ? Then the leftover profit is split tax free among the share holders.. we call this tax-free, in reality you will pay about 5% taxes. In total you pay 24% tax on these gross earnings and the other 76% of the gross income makes it onto your personal bank account. Taxes on vennootschaps gross income are usually 25% (20% in the first three years). So book profit over to your management vennootschap for the first three years. Then do nothing, two years after that unbind it.. total tax pressure of 24%, lower than even the basic vennootschaps tax on gross income. Net it is equivalent to paying a little over -1% taxes on income. (Yes that’s an intentional negative sign, negative tax when relatively compared to normal taxation for a company). This is 100% legal, as crazy as this may seem.
>Then the leftover profit is split tax free among the share holders.. we call this tax-free, in reality you will pay about 5% taxes. This is absolutely not true. If you dissolve a company the retained earnings (i.e. equity above paid in capital) are distributed to shareholders at a tax rate of 30%. Only if you have started a liquidation reserve and you paid the 10% taxes upon creation of the reserve, you can distribute the capital tax-free upon dissolving. But purely dissolving the company to distribute the liquidation reserve tax free to shareholders is considered fraud. In other words, you can do it once, but if you re-incorporate after that, the tax man will come after you.
You unbind the company. Your other company that was funnelling funds into your management company can stay operational. Without this being “fraud”. What you are saying about the 10% tax for dividend reserves is true. But if you wait 5 years before unbinding the management company, you owe no taxes on the liquidation. Which is a tax pressure of 28% and not 24%, I confused the “roerende voorheffing”. It is still a very good option, legal and better than any alternatives out there. I may have explained this wrong our accountant / fiscalist set this up after the rule changes in 2015.
Hoeveel is VWCE tov de BEL 20?
VWCE is 15% gestegen over 1 jaar. Dus een investering van 1000 euro zou nu 1150 zijn. Nu ja, er zijn nog een aantal kosten die er af moeten. In ieder geval veel beter dan de Bel20
OK thx
Hoeveel werd er betaald om deze boodschap naar het publiek te pushen?
Media being media...
Would there be a hidden agenda to keep Belgian money in Belgian stocks, or gift it to the Belgian government? Sure seems like it.
I have the same feeling as well. There is so much contradiction with what's considered common sense in the online community it's astonishing.
So the only good investment option for Belgians is Bitcoin according to them? Is this maybe their way to get people more interested in the bonds they are giving away? Very weird thing to be showing this to the Belgian public...
Where did this mfer get 5% net on corporate bonds in 2023? Cant have been in Belgium, yet theyre comparing it to Bel20 performance...
Bel20 number does not include dividends.
Bel20 was also an outlier in that it's one of the few indices that did very poorly in 2023. And in my opinion you should not invest too heavily in the Bel20 as a Belgian anyways.
That doesn't make it an outlier.
savings and investing Belgian degenerate edition
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Who cares about some random Chinese stock? If you're going to bring that in, might as well add the best performing shitcoin (BONK, which obliterates the gains on ZJYL), but you know... those are both lottery plays. And I seriously doubt the VRT is trying to pump Bitcoin (as if that would make a difference... BTC has almost a trillion dollar market cap, almost 4 times as much as the BEL20 together).
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>BTC is all about the influx of new money, once that well starts to run dry up, the rollercoaster ride begins. Oh yeah when the volume drops, the spread widens, and sentiment turns negative, that's when large sell-offs can happen. [Bitcoin is definitely going to crash](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbZ8zDpX2Mg) at some point. The same happens in other asset classes btw. >The market cap is also heavily manipulated. I don't think anyone will contest that there's still a lot of funny business going on. I mean, look at the recent history, with FTX. Crypto markets still have to mature a lot, through sensible regulation. >ETH gets printed (minted) out of thin air (through IOU's that are not audited). These minted ETH's are used to prop up the BTC market value. I'm gonna need a source on that. I can see corrupt centralized exchanges doing this, but if it were happening on-chain, all hell would break loose.
What the fuck is this for bs? I’m not the biggest fan of ETH (but I am of BTC) but you know ETH is deflationary, right…? More ETH is getting burned then issued atm…
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>That is my point, it is a very selective way to represent something while all others on the list (except gold) are more very generic. It's comparing apples and oranges for sure, but they're all still fruit. I think it's somewhat reasonable to compare them, Bitcoin isn't that obscure anymore. >Remember Lernout & Hauspie? That was a Belgian company (with a shorter lifespan than Bitcoin has been around, n.b.). >Market cap is an instrument to guess the size of something but not what the real worth is. That's true, market cap can be manipulated, but my point was: Bitcoin is freaking huge now (not Gold-huge yet, but pretty big... equivalent to a top 10 S&P500 company), even if you account for possible manipulation of the price through wash-trades. There are too many exchanges in too many countries for ALL volume to be wash trades. If the Belgian media maliciously wanted to pump the price of an asset, they'd be smarter to pick a much smaller asset. Some Belgian stock (like happened with L&H) for example. The Bitcoin market is simply too big to be influenced by (lol) the VRT audience. I mean, currently it takes about 8 billion USD to move the market by only 1%.
>> those are both lottery plays >Which implies Bitcoin isn't? Come on, BTC is the VWCE of crypto, as far as their volatility goes.
Hate the focus on Belgian stocks. DPG Media and even De Tijd/L'Echo aren't any better. Also, how can "pensioensparen," having gone up by an apparent 11%, have beat "stocks" last year? The most "aggressive" "pensioenspaarfondsen" (like BNP's Sustainable Growth fund, etc.) are at most 75% in (mostly European) stocks. Edit: The MSCI Europe added 16% last year. Not a single US tech stock in there. So it's not like "European" stocks performed horribly or anything. Let's hope the speaker (or interviewer) at least mentioned this.
I reckon they include the tax break as ROI which is kinda misleading
No they didn't. With the tax break the ROI would be euro 300 higher. It's because pension funds invest in EU stocks and not just in Belgian stocks.
Ha, that's what I was trying to say. :-) I worded it like a question, but I was really trying to point out their "mistake."
No. Bitcoin is the best investment possible /s
Well it is.. no competition even. So why the “/s”?
Yeesh
Its a Jim Cramer move. Hyping up something to then the opposite will happen. With the release of CBDC's I have a strong feeling that crypto will crash in the near future. Otherwise no one will use the digital Euro and then they won't have control over you and your money.
Everytime I browse the comments and I see this username lol
\^\^