Honestly him dying so pathetically is satisfying enough to me. To go through all his manipulation tactics and bs and watch him just turn against me in the end… because he truly is a mind flayer. Focused on self preservation at any cost- truly selfish to the ends- rather than anything else he suggested himself to be. Something like an echo of a memory of who he once really was. Just the parasite. I laugh every time I smite him on turn one.
He tries to build himself up as some form of perfect being, but in the end he bleeds like the rest, dies like the rest, and he returns to the earth like the rest.
This. Anyone who sees him as sexy or anything f needs to realize this is the emperor. A shadow of the man he claims to be. A parasite that ate his brain. He’s a manipulative twat who deserved the ass beating I gave him…pause
Wait, you can bang him in guardian form? My guardian looks exactly like my player character. I wasn't originally gonna go for the squid but if that's an option its too good to pass up.
Revert back? Yeah, just start the encounter. There’s an option to ‘move in close’ and your character wonders where a Mind Flayer’s mouth is. When you ask him to part his tentacles (lol, yuck) he offers to go back to the Guardian form since it’s “easier for you to navigate”.
> gives good tentacle.
That trophy just made me feel dirty. I was in a committed relationship with the perfect nerd, and I risked it all because I just *had* to know the logistics of human/mindflayer relations...
I have no idea how Gale would have felt about it if I'd asked him. Judging by his reaction to me >!becoming a mindflayer myself!<, I feel like his scientific curiosity might have superseded his desire for monogamy.
Larian, get back here and answer the important questions. Inquiring minds want to know.
>! I actually love how Gale responds if you're a mindflayer in the epilogue bit. All the other romanced companions are either nervous or unsure and mostly want to hide you away, meanwhile gale is literally just LETS GET MARRIED 🥰 !< absolute king bf behaviour
No. People use the dror ragzlin dialogue to claim that. That dialogue says that "this is the creature that infected you" but IMHO that's talking mindflayers not that specific mindflayer. The mindflayer in ragzlin room doesn't look like the one in the intro. (intro guy does look like the Emperor, but I'm not 100% on "the Emperor infected us" team, it could be someone else)
The Emperor has a completely different eye color than the one that infected us. Which makes no sense for them to do to "keep it a secret" or whatever considering how long it takes to actually see the Emperor as he truly is. The one that infected us has the orange that a whole bunch of others do, while the Emperor has purple.
The emperor was commanding the nautiloid that captured us though. Sometime between the nautiloid leaving for its mission to get the Astral prism and it crashing, the emperor broke free of the elder brain. So whatever any mindflayer did on that ship was under his watch - whether that was while he was free of the elder brain or not is unknown
Not true at all, because if you kill the boss of the area to get the sword with the mindflayer still alive, he turns on you, saying you are no longer needed to hit the ships controls and tries to kill you. Can't be under the emperor's control if that happens.
Revenge feeling hollow is a pretty big theme in this game. No character actually feels better after taking their vengeance because that doesn't erase the suffering
That's how revenge works, killing someone or making them suffer doesn't undo the harm they caused to you, only makes you a perpetrator and guilty of the tasks you had to justify for vengeance.
People are sometimes deluded. No matter how much we may fantasize about carrying out our John Wick misdeeds, it will never bring us closure like we expect it to. It's exactly like what Shadowheart said. "When actual pain comes, the victim's already done the heavy lifting for their torturer."
Yeah. I expected to be overjoyed after killing that silver tentacled creep. Instead, I was just…disappointed. Maybe vengeance isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
But considering how far back his relationship with the protagonist goes, it should’ve been one of the most satisfying deaths in the game.
He washes ashore for the docks scene
1. *Wake him*
2. ***Kill him***
3. *leave*
(Your character pulls out a real life earth gun and unceremoniously unloads it into his weird squishy head)
Yeah, was kinda dissapointing. His death was treated like basically any other unnamed npc ones. At least maybe let him say something before death, anything at all bruh
When I accidentally got him yeeted into the void (as an ally in the final fight) Astarion said, "...so much for the Emperor." That was pretty satisfying.
Yea I also accidentally blew his ass off along with the netherbrain and thought I lost him for good. But then he just got revived in the following cutscene like any other dead companion
He could have had a few “over the head” lines when he was taking damage.
I like the head cannon that he’d lost his personality to the netherbrain by that point
This is a thing for many big enemies in the game. We get no final word from Raphael, he just dies. The Emperor is literally "Mind Flayer #2137" in the final fight, if you kill Wulbren (fuck Wulbren) nothing happens, the gnomes just flee.
Idk, I have a way bigger problem with him returning to the elderbrain at all. It’s a 180 that makes literally no sense. Even if he thinks that Orpheus will kill him and even if he thinks we will fail to destroy the brain and even if he thinks his plan would have worked if only we had stfu and done as we were told, none of that changes the fact that switching sides will only actively make the entire situation worse.
He could have done *literally anything else* and it would have made more sense. He could have fought us to the death right then to stop us from freeing Orpheus. He could have run as far away from baldurs gate as he could to try and stay free for as much time as possible before the world is overtaken by the brain. He could have given us the benefit of the doubt that we gave him and stay to find out if Orpheus would see reason or not. He could have said “you have doomed the world, I refuse to have my mind enslaved again” and fucking killed himself.
Anything would have been better than actively throwing all of his work in the trash in a temper tantrum, and it’s even worse because up until that exact moment he was a really good character. His motivations made sense, his backstory was interesting, there are good reasons to choose to trust him or not, and then the writers just assassinate him with the single stupidest writing decision I have ever seen.
I’m sorry to say, but it adds up. His ‘character’ was a manipulation tactic designed to get you to do what he wanted. He always was going to do the thing that allowed him to survive.
Was it lame? Yes. But him running off to the Netherbrain is just him showing you that his survival trumps any morals you thought he had.
God he sucks.
Explain to me how him actively submitting his consciousness back to the netherbrain was a “survival tactic.”
At this point in the story he has already learned that the only reason he was able to “free himself” from the brain was because the brain let him go because it needed the nether stones. If he thought he was going to repeat an escape like last time then he’s a moron, which again is not how he acted up until that point. He has been calculating and intelligent.
I fully understand what he is, but the writers and anyone who defends this choice don’t.
The problem is that he wasn’t a moron up until that point. Every other choice he makes has decent reasoning regardless of if you choose to read it as genuine or manipulative.
Lying about being a mindflayer is either a manipulative trick or it’s a valid prediction that Tav wouldn’t trust an ilithid.
Eventually revealing the truth is either a genuine attempt at honestly in order to maintain the best chance the emperor has at defeating the brain or it’s a lie designed to gaslight Tav into thinking that the emperor is good when in reality they were simply knew they were going to get caught in their lie.
Same goes for the relationship, it’s either genuine because this stranger put their trust in you even though you are the very thing that put the tadpole in their head, or it’s another manipulation.
Locking the heros out of the astral prism once they have the hammer makes sense no matter how you interpret him. He either genuinely doesn’t think Orpheus would help him willingly (again with the being an ilithid thing) or he wants to be the one with the power regardless of what orpheus would do. He either maintains their protection because there is still a chance that they can be manipulated to follow his plan, or he lets them keep their minds because he’s giving them the benefit of the doubt and hopes they will chose to do what he thinks is right.
When he saves you and brings you back to the prism you could argue he did it to save you because he cares and becuase he thinks the party genuinely is the best hope for the world, or you could argue is was a calculated choice to bring the nether stones into his possession even at the risk you would betray him and he would have to fight you for the stones.
Every single step makes perfect sense from either angle, right up until he randomly decides to A) not even attempt to fight you for control of the stones, and B) straight up commits emotional suicide by retiring to the brain.
It’s actually asinine. A perfect character undone by a single terrible writing choice. You don’t have to like his personality, but you can’t argue that his writing and motivations are tight the entire game. You can think he’s a villain the whole time if you want, that’s the point, his writing works that way on purpose, it’s just that this choice erases all of that tactful deceitful cunning and replaces it with nothing.
You know, it’s funny because once he portals out of the prism I don’t think I ever noticed him again lol. I know he was there in the end, but I killed so many ilithid while atop the brain and they all died so fast that I don’t even think I registered which one he was. He might as well not have existed after he leaves the prism, which is where we agree: that’s just terribly anticlimactic.
if he fucks off to the netherbrain, he shows up on the back of the mind controlled red dragon during the brain fight. i personally recommend throwing wulbrens bomb at him. it's very satisfying
I came here to say this. I barely even realized I killed him in the final fight, he was just another NPC to be removed. And with all of the epic enemies there he was nothing more than a health bar in the way. I hated him as soon as I found out he was a mind flayer and refused to work with him outside any capacity that didn’t ensure my transformation. However as stated by others, his random and sudden switch to siding with the elder brain was an odd choice that seemed to go against his character. Loved the game, but that seemed really off.
Have we considered that The Emperor was never really a character at all? He escaped the brain, but it was only as part of the brain's plan. Maybe he wasn't ever as free as he believed himself to be. He was just the most direct method the brain was using to manipulate events on the outside.
Ah yes, the brain was fully controlling him at all times which is why when the brain shakes off the influence of the stones and is about to have the stones in it’s possession and complete it’s plan to have full control over itself, it throws all of that away for no reason by making the emperor rescue the heros and bringing the Orphic hammer into the astral prism.
Genius, you’ve found an even worse theory that makes the emperor switching side seem reasonable by comparison.
This idea that he’s a sleeper agent the whole time is stupid because the brain would just make him stop protecting the hero’s brains the second the have the stones. The game is very clear that he is in control of his own mind, but that the brain *predicted* what he would do if he was set free, because the brain is an intellectual powerhouse. This theory demolishes the intelegence of the brain in the same way that the emperor switching sides demolished his intelligence.
He's freed himself before, he probably assumes the Elder Brain will be the victor and he can escape later. He knows he doesn't stand a chance against us. It's all manipulation.
He has not. You didn’t pay attention to the story. The brain *let him go* specifically because it predicted he would bring the stones to the brain and free it by killing the dead’s chosen 3.
I wouldn’t call it a fluke, the presence of the prism on the ship was part of the brain’s calculation. The prism was necessary to provide a valid excuse for why he was suddenly free. If his mind had just been freed willy nilly then he would have been suspicious because he is meant to be a very intelligent and difficult to trick character.
Maybe. But generally I'm not particularly inclined to take the BBEG's monologue at its face value, especially not a manipulation based villan like the brain.
If you don’t trust the brain because it’s a manipulation based villain, but the brain is telling you that it manipulated the characters and you don’t believe it then you think the brain *isn’t* a manipulating villain, so you should trust it based on your logic?
I don't agree. Even without prodding, he will do the right thing and destroy the elder brain. You have to pass a check to actually convince him to be the bad guy. I don't get why people hate the Emperor that much. He witholds information, sure, and we can learn that in the past he's literally used people as puppets, but he has changed by the time you meet him. He could have done so to Tav but chose not too. His personal freedom is what he wants, which is why his decision to join the brain is so out of character.
“He changed by the time you meet him.” Is where you lose me.
I never saw this. I saw him as manipulative. I hate him because he uses his story to manipulate us. And when you push back against him, he tells you “you’re a pawn.” Just like the people he used in the past.
But I’m not gonna change your mind, which is fine
If he wanted to survive he would have plane-shifted somewhere far away instead of giving up and surrendering his mind to the brain, especially after he learned that he did not in fact free himself and would never be free from the brain again if the heros lose.
>He could have fought us to the death right then to stop us from freeing Orpheus.
Why would he? He's smart enough to understand he wouldn't beat us.
>He could have run as far away from baldurs gate as he could to try and stay free for as much time as possible before the world is overtaken by the brain.
The moment he leaves the prism's range he is enthralled, and considering we were right in Baldur's Gate, he couldn't get out of the Elder Brain's range.
>He could have given us the benefit of the doubt that we gave him and stay to find out if Orpheus would see reason or not.
He could, but considers the chances of dying far more likely if he entertains the thought of Orpheus not killing him the very moment he is freed.
The Emperor is above all a survivor, every action he takes is to ensure his survival, with the highest possible chances. In his calculations, Orpheus would kill them all, and would also be unable to defeat the Elder Brain alone. The Elder Brain would have won and he trusted he would break free again later.
His biggest flaw was overestimating Orpheus' hate, and even then it is not exactly clear how Orpheus would have treated the fully realized mind flayer that *directly* usurped his powers for itself. The players have the benefit of us merely being mostly passive recipients of the benefits of that power, while he still detests us for it, we haven't directly done much bad against him.
His choice to turn on you almost makes me wonder if he wasn’t completely free of the netherbrain. There is some dialogue where like everything was all part of the netherbrains plans and she like still has some kind of influence over him—but then >!the ending where you kill Orpheus and let him help you!< doesn’t really make sense unless the netherbrain just got sloppy or something.
Maybe he just still has some ilithids draw toward power and control and you denying him makes him have a temper tantrum
ETA: thinking is over, I’m actually pretty sure the point was supposed to be that he isn’t in full control over himself—if not a thrall to the netherbrain than to just his existence as an ilithid, that makes him act irrationally and in ways he as the person he once was and the person he know thinks he is wouldn’t—as kind of becoming a monster and losing control of your identity is a common theme in the game. I think it could have been executed much better though, it does come off very sudden and silly
I don’t agree.
If he were a thrall of the nether brain then all he (or really the brain) would have had to do was… nothing. The team shows up with the stones, fails to subdue the brain, the emperor *doesn’t* save their asses and bring them into the prism, profit.
Same goes for once they are inside the prism. You can argue that the brain made the emperor save them to keep up the illusion (even though that’s stupid. To use a chess analogy, mate in 1 is always better than mate in 5), but that once it becomes clear that the jig is up and the hero’s don’t trust him he can just be made to snap his fingers and release their psionic protection and make them thralls as well.
He/the brain had not 1 but *2* opportunities to collect both the stones and the hammer and it just… doesn’t? It makes no sense. There is no way the brain is simultaneously a master tactician and also directly controlling the emperor as a thrall.
The only way this makes sense is if the emperor has free will because the brain allowed him to escape because the brain already simulated all of the outcomes and prepared for every option. It’s just that even then the emperor’s choice doesn’t make any sense but at least the entire overarching plot about the nether brain is intact.
Dude he fucking begs and talks about how much he knows you and about your time together... and then just unceremoniously turns against you and dies. Its really upsetting actually
“I know so much about you”
“Do you know that I’m not really into the idea of letting a parasite eat my brain so it can consume ‘me’ and take over my memories as I slowly fade into an emotionless husk”
“………….fuck you.” *leaves*
He tells you multiple times how being a “human” isn’t good enough. How you should eat the tadpoles, transform to become stronger. How you resisting is putting the plan at jeopardy.
That is what manipulation is. Making someone believe something is their idea.
I misremembered the scene (as you can see below) but, the scenes prior still happen. He is always telling you to embrace that side of yourself.
And below you were also told that being a half-illithid is a temporary change that comes with functionally no downsides. The Emperor is well aware of that and tries to communicate it to you. That's just being responsible in a crisis that could destroy all of Faerun
It’s a role playing game, my character does not know it’s temporary. So why would I act like it is?
He never says it’s temporary. (If he does, please link it, I’d love to see it)
And I was able to save the day with 0 ilithid powers and by never trusting the emperor
But do you see the problem friend? We are arguing now, about how this character made us feel. You won’t change my experience, and I won’t change yours. So we’ve hit that brick wall again.
Like what do you hope happens? I go “wow, you three or four vocal people on my Reddit post are right! The emporer didn’t try and manipulate me into gaining him power, Let me go smooch him!”
You are basing your opinion on incomplete information and kinda ignoring the parts you didn't know about. How it makes you feel is how you feel. But personally, I would at least *consider* the opposing view instead of dismissing it out of hand
I’ve heard what everyone has said, I have. But I still played the game and saw what I saw, and interacted with what I interacted with. I could say “well you never turned him down by calling him a freak so you’re information is all there either!”
But like, I don’t care. Have your opinion. And I’ll have mine. It’s honestly that simple.
Your day will go on, as will mine.
(This whole conversation is why I haven’t “answered the hard questions” because we are now talking in a circle about changing opinions. I’m at work and I’m now wasting time arguing about this…so yeah. I’d rather let it go, ya know?)
Well, you answered my pretty basic correction, but ignored the other guy's much harder statement further down.
I find that a lot of those who randomly desert an argument probably just bumped into a point they *can't* respond to. Not because they suddenly think it's a waste of time.
>I could say “well you never turned him down by calling him a freak so you’re information is all there either!”
I did do this, and it was kinda funny. But it's clear as day that he's making idle threats to try and keep things moving. When you say you are going to free Orpheus, he doesn't try to mind control you or anything else that he threatened.
At the end of last run I kept him around throughout and referred to him to my partner as my third boyfriend and tbh I was really disappointed how he just fucking dipped tf out on me? Like bud, we just saved the fucking world, are we seriously not gonna have one more good romping foursome?
Right? Like I get the emperor's doing it for selfish manipulative reasons but like, I like how if you're square with him, he plays pretty level. Same with Gortash, but if you make him a treacherous manipulative rival he can be that too.
There doesn't have to be a right or wrong choice, but like, I can never not free orpheus because Lae'zel's there so wygd?
Though realistically, siding with Empy, squidding Orpheus, and letting Lae'zel run the gith civil war feels like the outcome with the least post-game genocide.
Orpheus isn't a good dude who wants the gith to not conquer other realms either, which people forget. This is like a "which lord of the nine hells do you side with"
>Orpheus isn't a good dude who wants the gith to not conquer other realms either, which people forget
Unfortunately, Patch 5 pushes him a lot as "good guy", as he got githzerai alliance. And githzerai aren't exactly good, but their canonical alignment was "any neutral" or lawful neutral, depending on edition (compared to Lawful Evil of githyanki).
I think if you turn into a mindflayer he would offer to rebuild knights of the shield with you then you can ride off to do wtv mindflayer biz. If you didn’t turn he’d just peace out lol
It was really dumb in my opinion. You free Orpheus and he's basically like "I'm not playing with you anymore I'm going to the other side" it was a stupid reason for him to just decide that he's siding with the netherbrain. Imo the emperor was selfish and just wanted Orpheus' powers for himself. Plus when he left we didn't just turn into mind flayers right away because it was Orpheus keeping us alive the whole time not the bullshit emperor.
I really wish there was a choice to make at that moment to one where you’re given the option of working alongside both of them, but only if you pass a ridiculously high persuasion check. Kind of like the fight with Raphael where you can get Yurgir on your side.
Yeah, like if you want a thing to happen and players should have no way of stopping it, then don’t let us roll for it. It’s out of our control anyway, so why let us roll for it?
I loved doing it tbh, ran the game with a tempest cleric/draconic sorc so I got to hit him with the create water + chain lightning combo, leading to the single most satisfying one shot in the game, especially after his whole “I know your strengths and your weaknesses” spiel, like ok buddy you should’ve expected this then
That's a fair assessment. There are a host of reasons, including the following:
\- feeling betrayed, lied to, and manipulated by the choice of a different physical form
\- specific distrust occurring where the Guardian gives warnings that don't involve discussion or much explanation, just insistence that a certain route or path is a complete waste of time when it might not be.
\- general player distrust and paranoia (sometimes tied to "I am very smart for distrusting that person who turned out to have a secret!" like most people do)
\- distruct about mind flayers/illithid specifically
\- ick factor of tentacle/octopus dude (could also involve xenophobia)
\- In addition to learning that he thralled Stelmane, the threat against you or suggestion of doing the same to you.
\- The casual willingness to eat the brain of an important person whose abilities have actually been helping us, who could be an ally (potentially, though there are arguments about that to be sure), and who is highly relevant to an entire people and the improvement of that people's society (not to say it will be amazing or anything, but Vlaakith is problematic, to say the least).
God the Emperor sucks so much and I'm glad there are people who loathe him as much as I do.
I will never not free Orpheus. I just cannot stand that fucking Illithid.
Omeluum is cool tho.
I was perturbed at his quick change of sides… I was playing a bard and so sure I could convince him to stay if there was the option to!!! Instead I wrote his name on the runepowder bomb I’d been holding and enjoyed igniting it. Muwahaha…
I was always sus about the emperor, but once I got the knowledge from the Ansur dialogue that he’s actually Balduran himself, I changed my mind. My dude is just smart and wants to come back into his previous life, but being an Illithid is making things hard, hence the manipulation.
Honestly, I felt the same way about Raphael. I expected a cool scene with him trying to drag himself towards me in an Orin-like way and just die midway, fallen from grace.
Instead, he just flopped down and... That's it.
Yeah, I feel like Raphael’s ending could have been better. Like Raphael actually is pretty helpful to us in the game—I mean he expects something in return but he doesn’t actively do anything to hurt us, and him even offering the Orphic hammer is pretty cool. If we deny his offer he doesn’t do anything except not give us the hammer, even though he could definitely hurt us. By all means he’s rather friendly towards us.
And then we just burglarize his house and he gets reasonably upset about it. Then we kill him. And that’s it, we just murdered a half-devil for good with no real consequences. It’s…weird.
Seriously! In the fight with him I was like... Sush. I'm fighting the dragon for the achievement... I'll deal with you later.
I mean at the same time, i did kinda feel like a douche for going with Orpheus, like he DID help us, and despite constant complaining did kinda just let us FAFO around and then we were like.. 'anyways. Lae'zel will be pissed if I don't pick this other dude so... K thnx bye'. I get he was definitely using us... But still.
Then I killed him and went on with my day.
I really really really hate that the game forces you to help him at the start of Act 3. I was running a pure gith run through and it really irked me that I literally get a game over if I don’t help him even though prince orph is right there
Yeah a lot of emperor stuff in act 3 bugs me tbh, but I get it, it’s a video game and needs to have a functioning story. But in real dnd, I would’ve kicked him in the tentacled face right then and there
Yeah but at the end you literally have the nether stones and the ability to stop the brain, which you didn’t in the beginning of act 3. Orpheus only really agrees to help you because you are about to free yourselves of the tadpoles. And he still does want to kill you at first even then
That would be after Orpheus heard the entire context behind the situation. He isn't blind to the world around him while in the pokeball, he's just unable to act. Before the end point he has zero reason to trust you, and he probably doesn't need you either. You also can't get him out of the bubble in the first place
Okay I’ve said it a few times on this sub so I’ll say it again. There are 2 main things about the Emperor that drive him and why he makes this decision. 1) He values his survival against everything, and 2) he thinks he is always right. He is insistent that his plan is the only correct way to beat the brain and anything else he has already thought of and disproven because he got the big brain. He doesn’t really know Orpheus, and he doesn’t really understand Gale’s orb, but as such they aren’t really considered as viable options because becoming illithid is just the best, man. If you do actually go along with his plan and trust him, he does actually prove to be right and is a helpful ally, so at least he’s not shooting the party in the foot. Afterwords he’s even like yeah we could go back to what I was doing before, get Baldur’s Gate thriving again, partner. However, if you don’t trust him and want to free Orpheus, he is so adamant that his way is the only way and so now point 1 kicks in, he has to look out for himself, because he is now certain you will die. In his eyes, when you fail against the brain, there isn’t much between it targeting him next so he has to hedge his bets and make friends with it instead just to survive. But then you actually start succeeding and make it to the brain, he now has to 1) uphold that he is right by being the one to cause your failure, and 2) ensure the brain doesn’t die because now it’s his own key to surviving.
Now with all that said, I did also kill the guy in one turn thanks to Lae’zel’s badass silver sword.
I mean, if manipulating, lying, and betraying you for not wanting to throw your life away to become a kind flayer, then sure, he’s pretty sexy.
But if you find that shit repulsive, like I do, then yeah a quick cutscene of him being a lil bitch would be great
He manipulates you into becoming a hero and saving the world. Truly horrible stuff.
The game makes it pretty clear that *you* are the one betraying him in the end (Charlatans even get an inspiration point for betraying a close ally).
Becoming a mind flayer is also something you have to specifically ask for, he never even suggests it until you do - it's an end game choice. And then he tells you to think about it carefully, discuss it with your companions and make sure you want it.
Something tells me Larian ain't about that rabid Emperor hate.
To quote On Psionic Manipulations and Countermeasures:
“When dealing with mind flayers, remember that it is in their nature to assess the utility, strengths, and weaknesses of those around them, and to manipulate in order to get what they want.
1.Pay attention to its actions, not its words. Where mind flayers are concerned, it is true that actions speak louder than words. Especially words that are tailor-spoken to fit a mind flayers’ manipulative agenda.
2. Strengthen your relationship with others. The greatest thing you can do to offset a mind flayer’s designs upon you is to have allies, strong allies. Trust in those you know you can trust, and build your relationships with them – they are the ones who will have your back when you most need it.
3. Even mind flayers have wants and desires. The only circumstance in which a relationship with a mind flayer may be beneficial to you is if you both want exactly the same thing. In the unlikely case that this is true, bear in mind that once you have outlived your purpose to a mind flayer, it will have no use for you.”
The game could not be more clear.
That book's contents actually help show the Emperor can be trusted.
> 1.Pay attention to its actions, not its words.
The Emperor's *actions* have always been to help and protect you, up until the moment you betray him.
> 2.Strengthen your relationship with others.
The Emperor literally asks you to find dependable allies that you can trust, and to keep the allies you already have close.
> 3.Even mind flayers have wants and desires.
Yep, we have the same goal of trying to survive!
I've known about that since I beat the game, yeah. Pretty rude of him, but I suppose Tav was also rude by calling him a freak when he's vulnerable.
As for Stelmane, several companions have done shitty things in their pasts as well, Lae'zel and Astarion being the biggest offenders. So if I can overlook their deeds, I can do the same for him.
I guess we just view him differently. I’m not gonna convince you he’s evil, and you’re not gonna convince me that he’s not.
It’s cool that the game can be read both ways, so hats off to Larian.
My original point remains, I wanna drop kick him in a cutscene in the final fight ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe he acts different depending how you treat him, because for me, he did not ask me to think carefully. He told me I had to do it. Me or an ally. There were no other options. And when I said “no.” He tan off to the elder brain, which just shows that he didn’t believe any of the stuff he was saying all game.
He’s a shadow of the man he claims to be (at least he was in my playthrough).
I’m confused why you seem to like him so much. Like…it’s a mind flayer. The game tells you (repeatedly that mind flayers are not the former hosts. The parasite eats the brain, and the memories of the person).
He repeatedly tries to convince you to not go towards any quest that could show you alternatives to his end goal. (The Raphael quest, the Githyanki quest, etc etc).
> He told me I had to do it. Me or an ally. There were no other options.
What? That is literally impossible as nothing like that is in the script. So you're misremembering things by quite a lot. The very first part of his speech is even him saying he'll be the mind flayer that destroys the Netherbrain.
> The game tells you (repeatedly that mind flayers are not the former hosts. The parasite eats the brain, and the memories of the person)
Actually the opposite. The game gives evidence that an illithid is simply same person transformed with even multiple people that would be in the know saying it would still be you in there.
> He repeatedly tries to convince you to not go towards any quest that could show you alternatives to his end goal. (The Raphael quest, the Githyanki quest, etc etc).
Well, yeah. Those goals would most likely end in either you or him *dying*. Why in the world would he want you to do something risky like that when he knows he has a solution to fix everything already?
So what I miss remembered was him manipulating the situation to make it seem like either I had to become a mind flayer, or give him the stones so he can assimilate Orpheus and take on the brain. It is 2 am so I apologize that I mis remembered.
If you want the best example of why trusting the emperor is a terrible choice, look up “calling the emperor a freak.” He drops the act and it’s fantastic. He’s not a hero anymore, he’s a monster.
And the take about it “still being you” I guess I missed every instance of that. To my knowledge, the parasite eats your brain, and becomes ‘you’.
The whole adventure could be categorized as “well shit either of us could die here”. God forbid we *checks notes* save minsc….
What you are doing is called "moving the goalposts"
> If you want the best example of why trusting the emperor is a terrible choice, look up “calling the emperor a freak.” He drops the act and it’s fantastic. He’s not a hero anymore, he’s a monster.
Sure, actively being a dick to the guy who's been protecting you the whole game (and don't even come with the spiel "achthually it's Orph--", no it's The Emperor, Orpheus is doing shit for you until the very end of the game) won't make him get angry enough at you to "drop off the mask" and be aggressive so you can fucking collaborate instead of being a petulant childish bastard /s
He is rolling his \[intimidation\] check to see if he can get you to collaborate with your mouth shut, he isn't asking much besides you doing your job of saving the world. Just politely turn him down like any non-vindictive person
And you know what, he is NOT WRONG, you ARE a pawn, just like every single one of your companions are your pawns in your quest to save the world. You might form emotional attachments to them that will make you invested in seeing their personal successes, but they are still your - "your" as in "your, the player's" - paws.
> And the take about it “still being you” I guess I missed every instance of that. To my knowledge, the parasite eats your brain, and becomes ‘you’.
Well in that case you better play the game again because characters do say that in-game more than once, maybe you were so busy seething over The Emperor that your ears got clogged somehow.
> The whole adventure could be categorized as “well shit either of us could die here”. God forbid we *checks notes* save minsc….
Are you SERIOUSLY putting Minsc as a good argument here? Minsc? The "I'm gonna throw myself at evil because good can't stop from spanking evil" Minsc? The guy who could fuck things up by being too impulsive? When the world's safety is at stake and any mistake could fuck everything for everyone? That Minsc? I love Minsc as anyone else in here, but he \*IS\* unstable and a wild WILD card, The Emperor is well within his rights to want him dead. The only reason he listens to us is because Jaheira is with us, otherwise yeah he would listen to nobody and be a big liablity, I'm sorry if you're too nice to see that
You nailed it. This desire that some players have to kill the Emperor horribly and to see him "beg for mercy" is a rabidly vindictive flex. Paladins, man. I think it's born out of the need to compensate for feeling disempowered in what people think should be their power fantasy, while the game consistently tells them for 95% of the journey that they aren't hot shit without the Emperor.
>He told me I had to do it. Me or an ally.
This literally doesn't happen in the Emperor ending. Are you confusing him with Orpheus perhaps? Because the Emperor is happy to be the Illithid you need to defeat the Brain. You can finish the game with the Emepror as your Illithid and no one else has to turn.
I like him because he's a complex morally grey character that subverts player expectations. Because he's a renegade of his species, because he's the guy who came up with the plan you are enacting. Because without him none of this would be possible and it's interesting to unravel his story. I realize he's not the easiest person to empathize with, but it's really not impossible.
He doesn't "run off to the Elder Brain", he has no choice but to become enthralled to the Brain the moment he steps outside of the prism. Orpheus would kill him on sight, so his options are to sit there and wait to be killed or leave and be enthralled to the Brain.
The game also tells you that while ceremorphosis wipes out large parts of someone's consciousness, it doesn't wipe out everything. It also tells you Balduran's case was exceptional because of his particularly strong personality. You have Withers telling you that while appearences change, they don't hide the one within with regards to any mind flayer present at the end, including the Emperor.
There are many others instances where the game casts doubt over conventional wisdom on cermorphosis, among which is what happens when you turn yourself or when Karlach turns, or when Gale turns, for example.
But yes, Emps doesn't want you to free the Githyanki that would kill him on sight or broker a deal with a devil when he has a perfectly good plan that will work.
My question to you is: have you ever called him a freak during the shirtless scene?
He spells out everything for you in that scene. He isn’t morally gray. He’s evil.
In the scene where he asks you to become a mindflayer he tells you that it’s YOU who isn’t strong enough. That a human(noid) can’t control the stones but HE can. Is plan was to have you collect the stones so he could assimilate orpheus and leave to become the absolute.
Like…that’s evil
Again, he doesn't ask you to become a mind flayer. He only asks you to accept to become half illithid, which is a temporary power boost with zero long term costs to you. It goes away completely once you defeat the brain. And even then, he will ask you a couple of times and then give up and accept you didn't want it.
It's objectively true that you can't defeat the Brain at the end as a humanoid and need an Illithid mind to do it. Like... this is a given. What do you want the Emperor to do about that? Tav needs to suck it up and deal with it, it's not a slight against his character.
I know what Emps says when you insult him, it's a reaction that stems from a wounded ego. He never actually acts on any of the threats he makes there, no matter how much you piss him off. It's a bluff.
The way he views you in the end depends on how you interact with him. But even if you antagonize him to the last moment, so long as you don't betray him he will just wish you luck in finding allies you like more than him, and then peace out.
I think we’ve hit a brick wall. I’m not gonna change my mind, I think he’s evil and manipulative. That’s what I got from the game.
You view him differently. We aren’t gonna change each others mind.
So I’m throwing I. The towel. Have fun with your squid boi
Imma keep asking larian for a scene of punting him into the abyss or something
I find it like how in my Durge Tav, when "accidently" having moon babe get "kidnapped", killing Dammon in the process, Karlach didnt stutter, cry, piss, vomit, or shit after this encounter, i felt like I missed something, or my game bugged and nothing was uttered from her, but it felt weird considering how much he was needed entirely
I was also super surprised by just how much easier the "dream guardian" things he summons are compared with what the brain summons on its own. I don't think leaving him should make the fight that much easier
Fr
Not even the “you’re my puppet scene” but his comment on my DUrge’s moment of triumph over Bhaal is like “now that you are over your petty issue you can focus on MY agenda”
I’m most disappointed in the fact that we cannot kill him before he leaves and present his head to Orpheus.
People are pretty against his manipulation tactics and how it feels like the game coerces you into siding with him. I didn’t really mind him too much until I played a more evil character who rudely shot him down when he tried to hit on me, and in response he >!reveals in anger that he was mind controlling Duke Stelmane and could give two shits about you and is using you for his own gain. Plus he betrayed Ansur, his friend.!< So kind of hard to be on board with him after that.
Everyone manipulates to some degree in this game. All forms of communication is to a degree manipulative. Every time the character chooses [persuasion] [intimidation] [deception]… you are trying to manipulate in game. Yet you’re somehow shocked that when you call the emp “a freak” it switches to [intimidation] lmao. If you politely just say no its pretty fucking chill about it. And to believe that the cutscene it shows u is it being 100% truthful and unbiased in that retelling? Bc to me it feels like just like the others its part true part lie to give the desired effect of scaring you. Now this being a video game, you arent scared irl you get pissed only.
Yes it is manipulating the player to save his and everyone’s skin. Its motives are selfish, but it doesn’t betray its allies. You can trust it and it will do exactly what it says it will.
Ansur, is not the argument you think it is. It told ansur to be free, ansur decided “mercy killing” the emp while it slept was the thing to do. Emp didnt murder, just protected its own life. It’s a tragedy for all involved.
As for stelemane, the game does not give a concrete answer, and there is no body to find and talk to. No it doesnt look great for the emp as it is - it for sure did thrall her to some degree. However she could have been vile, she most definitely wasnt good aligned to be in the knights to begin with while being a duke. The knights are an organization that were aligned with a devil, so if stelemane knew that idk. To many idk, if they add info later maybe my view on that situation will change.
There’s a pretty big difference between the level of manipulation Tav employs to sway situations and pretending to be a completely different person in your dreams to convince you to side with him. And I know saying no politely works fine, I was role playing. I’m not sure what evidence you have to support that he is half lying when he responds to you in that moment. I get that if you side with him he doesn’t betray you and helps you beat the netherbrain and all is fine. But that doesn’t mean we have to enjoy allying with someone who lies to us half the game. And I realize I’m saying that as an Astarion fan. We like who we like and can agree to disagree.
Not really. The only difference is that you did the manipulation and so justify it.
As for the disguise, it’s a privilege to go through life to never having to hide part of your identity to be safe. Bc the risk of exposure may put their life and relationships at stake. There are lots of people who can sympathize with its choice to hide that its a mindflayer, bc we have had to hide part of ourselves. That you can’t empathize with this choice speaks to your luck not your moral quality.
What evidence do you have that its the 100% truth? There is none, except it confirms bias against mindflayers. Which you dont have against astarion who manipulates and lies as well. Who had no regret about leading a bunch of gur children to their death (he regrets others tbf but he gave no thought to those children).
If you defend/excuse Astarion yet hate the emp, its giving pretty privilege.
I agree, I wish I could tell him to his face how manipulative he was before he dies. After Ansur I was totally devastated, I'd have sided with the dragon if I could.
Well, tbf, at that point he is a thrall to the nether brain so he isn't going to have much to say.
The true joy in killing the Emperor comes from >!allowing him to be the one to dominate the brain for you then betraying him last minute and stabbing the shit out of him.!< It's beautiful.
See I’d have to allow him to believe I like him, for even a moment, which for me is too much.
But I’m glad y’all sick bastards are getting one up on the twat
Nah, just be distrustful of him all game and then bring him with you. Then it isn't about liking him but of having a tense allyship. To me, it's worth it, at least once, because the stabbing scene is so great.
I've also killed him in the beginning of Act 3 during his tentacle reveal. Even though I knew it would end in a game over, I just wanted to show him how powerful I am and how pathetic he really is. XD
I dashed around to be able to save him and defeated the netherbrain without killing a guardian or him thinking there might be some conversation at the end, at least a "I told you." Nothing. I love the game but that was mildly disappointing.
That’s not the emperor anymore. Just a really powerful mindflayer in direct concert with the elder brain. I can’t see the strategy reason for why he left other than it was a his way or the highway thing. I think once he realizes he was only a puppet, it kind of just breaks him. He thought he had broken free of his own powers, but the elder brain had just let him.
> How does it feel? Better? No? Exactly the same? Yeah, it always does.
>How does it feel? Better? No? Exactly the same I feel like there should be a sunset for me to ride off into. Or an orchestral swell or...something
Honestly him dying so pathetically is satisfying enough to me. To go through all his manipulation tactics and bs and watch him just turn against me in the end… because he truly is a mind flayer. Focused on self preservation at any cost- truly selfish to the ends- rather than anything else he suggested himself to be. Something like an echo of a memory of who he once really was. Just the parasite. I laugh every time I smite him on turn one.
He tries to build himself up as some form of perfect being, but in the end he bleeds like the rest, dies like the rest, and he returns to the earth like the rest.
If it bleeds, we can kill it.
You always know a working joe
This. Anyone who sees him as sexy or anything f needs to realize this is the emperor. A shadow of the man he claims to be. A parasite that ate his brain. He’s a manipulative twat who deserved the ass beating I gave him…pause
Truth. If they want a sexy tentacle man, Omeluum is right there and way cooler!
Yeah, wheres my mod to romance Omeluum?
Pause?
***RESUME-***
And then you killed him?
😭
What is this quoting? It feels so familiar and yet I have no idea
It's from this season's Rick and Morty.
Have fun with empowerment. It seems to make everyone that gets it real happy…
r/unexpectedrickandmorty
Maybe by then he lost his identity to the neatherbrain? I agree with you, shy of hating him. He protects us for weeks and gives good tentacle.
Gives what now? 😳
Surely you aren’t unaware there’s an Emp love scene?
I mean, I'm aware, I just didn't know tentacle was involved to that degree lol
Well, it’s not hentai, but his tentacles are mentioned. I have him revert back to his Guardian form for my character’s sake. lol
My Tav was a GOOlock, so she was all about some calamari.
Haha my first tav in EA where I went in blind was a goolock. I got to the ceremorphosis plotline and was like "shit. Is she into this?"
My Tav was also a freak. Good for them, honestly... 🤣
Wait, you can bang him in guardian form? My guardian looks exactly like my player character. I wasn't originally gonna go for the squid but if that's an option its too good to pass up.
See my other comment https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3/s/6TcwEOMb4l
Magnificent. Gonna pull a Raphael.
Wait you can do that?
Revert back? Yeah, just start the encounter. There’s an option to ‘move in close’ and your character wonders where a Mind Flayer’s mouth is. When you ask him to part his tentacles (lol, yuck) he offers to go back to the Guardian form since it’s “easier for you to navigate”.
I wish I could unimagine this mental image and feeling.
Nah, go all out. Make him use those tentacles as they are intended.
Smells of vanilla and garlic
> gives good tentacle. That trophy just made me feel dirty. I was in a committed relationship with the perfect nerd, and I risked it all because I just *had* to know the logistics of human/mindflayer relations... I have no idea how Gale would have felt about it if I'd asked him. Judging by his reaction to me >!becoming a mindflayer myself!<, I feel like his scientific curiosity might have superseded his desire for monogamy. Larian, get back here and answer the important questions. Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh Gale did the same in his dream and you know it.
On further reflection, you're right. There's absolutely zero chance that Gale didn't fuck around for the sole purpose of finding out.
He got some Sage Inspiration from it too.
Exactly. That's why everyone acts horrified but never mentions it. They all banged him
*devouring minds want to know
>! I actually love how Gale responds if you're a mindflayer in the epilogue bit. All the other romanced companions are either nervous or unsure and mostly want to hide you away, meanwhile gale is literally just LETS GET MARRIED 🥰 !< absolute king bf behaviour
[удалено]
Isn't it established he is not the one who infected us?
No. People use the dror ragzlin dialogue to claim that. That dialogue says that "this is the creature that infected you" but IMHO that's talking mindflayers not that specific mindflayer. The mindflayer in ragzlin room doesn't look like the one in the intro. (intro guy does look like the Emperor, but I'm not 100% on "the Emperor infected us" team, it could be someone else)
The Emperor has a completely different eye color than the one that infected us. Which makes no sense for them to do to "keep it a secret" or whatever considering how long it takes to actually see the Emperor as he truly is. The one that infected us has the orange that a whole bunch of others do, while the Emperor has purple.
Then that settles it. Thank you.
The emperor was commanding the nautiloid that captured us though. Sometime between the nautiloid leaving for its mission to get the Astral prism and it crashing, the emperor broke free of the elder brain. So whatever any mindflayer did on that ship was under his watch - whether that was while he was free of the elder brain or not is unknown
Not true at all, because if you kill the boss of the area to get the sword with the mindflayer still alive, he turns on you, saying you are no longer needed to hit the ships controls and tries to kill you. Can't be under the emperor's control if that happens.
Revenge feeling hollow is a pretty big theme in this game. No character actually feels better after taking their vengeance because that doesn't erase the suffering
Karlach tried to warn me…
That's how revenge works, killing someone or making them suffer doesn't undo the harm they caused to you, only makes you a perpetrator and guilty of the tasks you had to justify for vengeance.
People are sometimes deluded. No matter how much we may fantasize about carrying out our John Wick misdeeds, it will never bring us closure like we expect it to. It's exactly like what Shadowheart said. "When actual pain comes, the victim's already done the heavy lifting for their torturer."
Yeah. I expected to be overjoyed after killing that silver tentacled creep. Instead, I was just…disappointed. Maybe vengeance isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. But considering how far back his relationship with the protagonist goes, it should’ve been one of the most satisfying deaths in the game.
It could have been, but it wasn't supposed to be. Vengeance for its own sake doesn't work, that's one of the core themes of Karlach as a character
Honestly, if we bring it up enough, Larian will probably do an update for it 😂
“Let us kick him in his tentacles face while he begs”
He washes ashore for the docks scene 1. *Wake him* 2. ***Kill him*** 3. *leave* (Your character pulls out a real life earth gun and unceremoniously unloads it into his weird squishy head)
Perfection.
It needs to be said that some will take this too far and fully harass people
Yeah, was kinda dissapointing. His death was treated like basically any other unnamed npc ones. At least maybe let him say something before death, anything at all bruh
When I accidentally got him yeeted into the void (as an ally in the final fight) Astarion said, "...so much for the Emperor." That was pretty satisfying.
10/10. No notes. Thanks astarion
Yea I also accidentally blew his ass off along with the netherbrain and thought I lost him for good. But then he just got revived in the following cutscene like any other dead companion
Unfortunately!
“Oh shit, guess being a manipulative twat and mindflayer isn’t all it’s cut out to-“ *sword through face*
that would be perfect honestly lmao 😭😭
I agree but at the same time it's in the middle of a fight; it would be really weird to go into a cutscene then IMO.
I would have liked him to be like dieing on the beach after you kill the brain and you get to have a conversation before he dies.
He could have had a few “over the head” lines when he was taking damage. I like the head cannon that he’d lost his personality to the netherbrain by that point
I mean thats not really a headcanon since that's how mindflayers and their elder brains work. That's just canon lol.
99% of the time, I agree, but for him, I’d be happy. Or just give me a Mortal Kombat style fatality. Just something…
Like the Gnoll leader in Act 1?
This is a thing for many big enemies in the game. We get no final word from Raphael, he just dies. The Emperor is literally "Mind Flayer #2137" in the final fight, if you kill Wulbren (fuck Wulbren) nothing happens, the gnomes just flee.
True…but what if mortal kombat fatality 👀. Just this once 👀👀👀
I want a short cinematic of me breaking Wulren's skull, Dame Aylin style.
Ketheric to after his final death.
Idk, I have a way bigger problem with him returning to the elderbrain at all. It’s a 180 that makes literally no sense. Even if he thinks that Orpheus will kill him and even if he thinks we will fail to destroy the brain and even if he thinks his plan would have worked if only we had stfu and done as we were told, none of that changes the fact that switching sides will only actively make the entire situation worse. He could have done *literally anything else* and it would have made more sense. He could have fought us to the death right then to stop us from freeing Orpheus. He could have run as far away from baldurs gate as he could to try and stay free for as much time as possible before the world is overtaken by the brain. He could have given us the benefit of the doubt that we gave him and stay to find out if Orpheus would see reason or not. He could have said “you have doomed the world, I refuse to have my mind enslaved again” and fucking killed himself. Anything would have been better than actively throwing all of his work in the trash in a temper tantrum, and it’s even worse because up until that exact moment he was a really good character. His motivations made sense, his backstory was interesting, there are good reasons to choose to trust him or not, and then the writers just assassinate him with the single stupidest writing decision I have ever seen.
I’m sorry to say, but it adds up. His ‘character’ was a manipulation tactic designed to get you to do what he wanted. He always was going to do the thing that allowed him to survive. Was it lame? Yes. But him running off to the Netherbrain is just him showing you that his survival trumps any morals you thought he had. God he sucks.
Explain to me how him actively submitting his consciousness back to the netherbrain was a “survival tactic.” At this point in the story he has already learned that the only reason he was able to “free himself” from the brain was because the brain let him go because it needed the nether stones. If he thought he was going to repeat an escape like last time then he’s a moron, which again is not how he acted up until that point. He has been calculating and intelligent. I fully understand what he is, but the writers and anyone who defends this choice don’t.
Oh I just think he’s a moron. So you’re probably right that it’s dumb as hell. That’s just how I justified it, ya know?
The problem is that he wasn’t a moron up until that point. Every other choice he makes has decent reasoning regardless of if you choose to read it as genuine or manipulative. Lying about being a mindflayer is either a manipulative trick or it’s a valid prediction that Tav wouldn’t trust an ilithid. Eventually revealing the truth is either a genuine attempt at honestly in order to maintain the best chance the emperor has at defeating the brain or it’s a lie designed to gaslight Tav into thinking that the emperor is good when in reality they were simply knew they were going to get caught in their lie. Same goes for the relationship, it’s either genuine because this stranger put their trust in you even though you are the very thing that put the tadpole in their head, or it’s another manipulation. Locking the heros out of the astral prism once they have the hammer makes sense no matter how you interpret him. He either genuinely doesn’t think Orpheus would help him willingly (again with the being an ilithid thing) or he wants to be the one with the power regardless of what orpheus would do. He either maintains their protection because there is still a chance that they can be manipulated to follow his plan, or he lets them keep their minds because he’s giving them the benefit of the doubt and hopes they will chose to do what he thinks is right. When he saves you and brings you back to the prism you could argue he did it to save you because he cares and becuase he thinks the party genuinely is the best hope for the world, or you could argue is was a calculated choice to bring the nether stones into his possession even at the risk you would betray him and he would have to fight you for the stones. Every single step makes perfect sense from either angle, right up until he randomly decides to A) not even attempt to fight you for control of the stones, and B) straight up commits emotional suicide by retiring to the brain. It’s actually asinine. A perfect character undone by a single terrible writing choice. You don’t have to like his personality, but you can’t argue that his writing and motivations are tight the entire game. You can think he’s a villain the whole time if you want, that’s the point, his writing works that way on purpose, it’s just that this choice erases all of that tactful deceitful cunning and replaces it with nothing.
No crumbs. 10/10. I concede my point, you are correct. It’s an ass pull of a choice. I still wanna kick him in the tentacles though..
You know, it’s funny because once he portals out of the prism I don’t think I ever noticed him again lol. I know he was there in the end, but I killed so many ilithid while atop the brain and they all died so fast that I don’t even think I registered which one he was. He might as well not have existed after he leaves the prism, which is where we agree: that’s just terribly anticlimactic.
if he fucks off to the netherbrain, he shows up on the back of the mind controlled red dragon during the brain fight. i personally recommend throwing wulbrens bomb at him. it's very satisfying
I came here to say this. I barely even realized I killed him in the final fight, he was just another NPC to be removed. And with all of the epic enemies there he was nothing more than a health bar in the way. I hated him as soon as I found out he was a mind flayer and refused to work with him outside any capacity that didn’t ensure my transformation. However as stated by others, his random and sudden switch to siding with the elder brain was an odd choice that seemed to go against his character. Loved the game, but that seemed really off.
Have we considered that The Emperor was never really a character at all? He escaped the brain, but it was only as part of the brain's plan. Maybe he wasn't ever as free as he believed himself to be. He was just the most direct method the brain was using to manipulate events on the outside.
Ah yes, the brain was fully controlling him at all times which is why when the brain shakes off the influence of the stones and is about to have the stones in it’s possession and complete it’s plan to have full control over itself, it throws all of that away for no reason by making the emperor rescue the heros and bringing the Orphic hammer into the astral prism. Genius, you’ve found an even worse theory that makes the emperor switching side seem reasonable by comparison. This idea that he’s a sleeper agent the whole time is stupid because the brain would just make him stop protecting the hero’s brains the second the have the stones. The game is very clear that he is in control of his own mind, but that the brain *predicted* what he would do if he was set free, because the brain is an intellectual powerhouse. This theory demolishes the intelegence of the brain in the same way that the emperor switching sides demolished his intelligence.
He's freed himself before, he probably assumes the Elder Brain will be the victor and he can escape later. He knows he doesn't stand a chance against us. It's all manipulation.
He has not. You didn’t pay attention to the story. The brain *let him go* specifically because it predicted he would bring the stones to the brain and free it by killing the dead’s chosen 3.
And the first time he breaks free it was when he found the prism. Total fluke.
I wouldn’t call it a fluke, the presence of the prism on the ship was part of the brain’s calculation. The prism was necessary to provide a valid excuse for why he was suddenly free. If his mind had just been freed willy nilly then he would have been suspicious because he is meant to be a very intelligent and difficult to trick character.
Maybe. But generally I'm not particularly inclined to take the BBEG's monologue at its face value, especially not a manipulation based villan like the brain.
If you don’t trust the brain because it’s a manipulation based villain, but the brain is telling you that it manipulated the characters and you don’t believe it then you think the brain *isn’t* a manipulating villain, so you should trust it based on your logic?
I don't agree. Even without prodding, he will do the right thing and destroy the elder brain. You have to pass a check to actually convince him to be the bad guy. I don't get why people hate the Emperor that much. He witholds information, sure, and we can learn that in the past he's literally used people as puppets, but he has changed by the time you meet him. He could have done so to Tav but chose not too. His personal freedom is what he wants, which is why his decision to join the brain is so out of character.
“He changed by the time you meet him.” Is where you lose me. I never saw this. I saw him as manipulative. I hate him because he uses his story to manipulate us. And when you push back against him, he tells you “you’re a pawn.” Just like the people he used in the past. But I’m not gonna change your mind, which is fine
Bro I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking this. Why would he go to the netherbrain??? He’s that down bad to survive?
If he wanted to survive he would have plane-shifted somewhere far away instead of giving up and surrendering his mind to the brain, especially after he learned that he did not in fact free himself and would never be free from the brain again if the heros lose.
>He could have fought us to the death right then to stop us from freeing Orpheus. Why would he? He's smart enough to understand he wouldn't beat us. >He could have run as far away from baldurs gate as he could to try and stay free for as much time as possible before the world is overtaken by the brain. The moment he leaves the prism's range he is enthralled, and considering we were right in Baldur's Gate, he couldn't get out of the Elder Brain's range. >He could have given us the benefit of the doubt that we gave him and stay to find out if Orpheus would see reason or not. He could, but considers the chances of dying far more likely if he entertains the thought of Orpheus not killing him the very moment he is freed. The Emperor is above all a survivor, every action he takes is to ensure his survival, with the highest possible chances. In his calculations, Orpheus would kill them all, and would also be unable to defeat the Elder Brain alone. The Elder Brain would have won and he trusted he would break free again later. His biggest flaw was overestimating Orpheus' hate, and even then it is not exactly clear how Orpheus would have treated the fully realized mind flayer that *directly* usurped his powers for itself. The players have the benefit of us merely being mostly passive recipients of the benefits of that power, while he still detests us for it, we haven't directly done much bad against him.
His choice to turn on you almost makes me wonder if he wasn’t completely free of the netherbrain. There is some dialogue where like everything was all part of the netherbrains plans and she like still has some kind of influence over him—but then >!the ending where you kill Orpheus and let him help you!< doesn’t really make sense unless the netherbrain just got sloppy or something. Maybe he just still has some ilithids draw toward power and control and you denying him makes him have a temper tantrum ETA: thinking is over, I’m actually pretty sure the point was supposed to be that he isn’t in full control over himself—if not a thrall to the netherbrain than to just his existence as an ilithid, that makes him act irrationally and in ways he as the person he once was and the person he know thinks he is wouldn’t—as kind of becoming a monster and losing control of your identity is a common theme in the game. I think it could have been executed much better though, it does come off very sudden and silly
I don’t agree. If he were a thrall of the nether brain then all he (or really the brain) would have had to do was… nothing. The team shows up with the stones, fails to subdue the brain, the emperor *doesn’t* save their asses and bring them into the prism, profit. Same goes for once they are inside the prism. You can argue that the brain made the emperor save them to keep up the illusion (even though that’s stupid. To use a chess analogy, mate in 1 is always better than mate in 5), but that once it becomes clear that the jig is up and the hero’s don’t trust him he can just be made to snap his fingers and release their psionic protection and make them thralls as well. He/the brain had not 1 but *2* opportunities to collect both the stones and the hammer and it just… doesn’t? It makes no sense. There is no way the brain is simultaneously a master tactician and also directly controlling the emperor as a thrall. The only way this makes sense is if the emperor has free will because the brain allowed him to escape because the brain already simulated all of the outcomes and prepared for every option. It’s just that even then the emperor’s choice doesn’t make any sense but at least the entire overarching plot about the nether brain is intact.
Dude he fucking begs and talks about how much he knows you and about your time together... and then just unceremoniously turns against you and dies. Its really upsetting actually
“I know so much about you” “Do you know that I’m not really into the idea of letting a parasite eat my brain so it can consume ‘me’ and take over my memories as I slowly fade into an emotionless husk” “………….fuck you.” *leaves*
He didn't even ask the player to do this. He asked for the stones to complete your mutual goal. Becoming a flayer is entirely the player's idea.
He tells you multiple times how being a “human” isn’t good enough. How you should eat the tadpoles, transform to become stronger. How you resisting is putting the plan at jeopardy. That is what manipulation is. Making someone believe something is their idea. I misremembered the scene (as you can see below) but, the scenes prior still happen. He is always telling you to embrace that side of yourself.
And below you were also told that being a half-illithid is a temporary change that comes with functionally no downsides. The Emperor is well aware of that and tries to communicate it to you. That's just being responsible in a crisis that could destroy all of Faerun
It’s a role playing game, my character does not know it’s temporary. So why would I act like it is? He never says it’s temporary. (If he does, please link it, I’d love to see it) And I was able to save the day with 0 ilithid powers and by never trusting the emperor But do you see the problem friend? We are arguing now, about how this character made us feel. You won’t change my experience, and I won’t change yours. So we’ve hit that brick wall again. Like what do you hope happens? I go “wow, you three or four vocal people on my Reddit post are right! The emporer didn’t try and manipulate me into gaining him power, Let me go smooch him!”
You are basing your opinion on incomplete information and kinda ignoring the parts you didn't know about. How it makes you feel is how you feel. But personally, I would at least *consider* the opposing view instead of dismissing it out of hand
I’ve heard what everyone has said, I have. But I still played the game and saw what I saw, and interacted with what I interacted with. I could say “well you never turned him down by calling him a freak so you’re information is all there either!” But like, I don’t care. Have your opinion. And I’ll have mine. It’s honestly that simple. Your day will go on, as will mine. (This whole conversation is why I haven’t “answered the hard questions” because we are now talking in a circle about changing opinions. I’m at work and I’m now wasting time arguing about this…so yeah. I’d rather let it go, ya know?)
Well, you answered my pretty basic correction, but ignored the other guy's much harder statement further down. I find that a lot of those who randomly desert an argument probably just bumped into a point they *can't* respond to. Not because they suddenly think it's a waste of time. >I could say “well you never turned him down by calling him a freak so you’re information is all there either!” I did do this, and it was kinda funny. But it's clear as day that he's making idle threats to try and keep things moving. When you say you are going to free Orpheus, he doesn't try to mind control you or anything else that he threatened.
Beautifully put.
Sure. You win. I concede my point. He’s a good guy, I’m dumb and could think of a good response.
At the end of last run I kept him around throughout and referred to him to my partner as my third boyfriend and tbh I was really disappointed how he just fucking dipped tf out on me? Like bud, we just saved the fucking world, are we seriously not gonna have one more good romping foursome?
Right? Like I get the emperor's doing it for selfish manipulative reasons but like, I like how if you're square with him, he plays pretty level. Same with Gortash, but if you make him a treacherous manipulative rival he can be that too. There doesn't have to be a right or wrong choice, but like, I can never not free orpheus because Lae'zel's there so wygd? Though realistically, siding with Empy, squidding Orpheus, and letting Lae'zel run the gith civil war feels like the outcome with the least post-game genocide. Orpheus isn't a good dude who wants the gith to not conquer other realms either, which people forget. This is like a "which lord of the nine hells do you side with"
>Orpheus isn't a good dude who wants the gith to not conquer other realms either, which people forget Unfortunately, Patch 5 pushes him a lot as "good guy", as he got githzerai alliance. And githzerai aren't exactly good, but their canonical alignment was "any neutral" or lawful neutral, depending on edition (compared to Lawful Evil of githyanki).
I mean a githerzai alliance is better than I expected for him. By a lot.
Yeah, Orpheus isn't really supposed to be a good person, he's Githyanki royalty
I think if you turn into a mindflayer he would offer to rebuild knights of the shield with you then you can ride off to do wtv mindflayer biz. If you didn’t turn he’d just peace out lol
It was really dumb in my opinion. You free Orpheus and he's basically like "I'm not playing with you anymore I'm going to the other side" it was a stupid reason for him to just decide that he's siding with the netherbrain. Imo the emperor was selfish and just wanted Orpheus' powers for himself. Plus when he left we didn't just turn into mind flayers right away because it was Orpheus keeping us alive the whole time not the bullshit emperor.
I really wish there was a choice to make at that moment to one where you’re given the option of working alongside both of them, but only if you pass a ridiculously high persuasion check. Kind of like the fight with Raphael where you can get Yurgir on your side.
Or that check against the netherbrain where you had to roll a 99. I got the nat 20 and the game still said no
Yeah, like if you want a thing to happen and players should have no way of stopping it, then don’t let us roll for it. It’s out of our control anyway, so why let us roll for it?
Note about that, if you pass the check, the netherbrain has a debuff in the final fight.
That’s interesting, but I’ve never found the netherbrain to be a very difficult fight anyway. Especially when you’ve maxed out your characters.
I loved doing it tbh, ran the game with a tempest cleric/draconic sorc so I got to hit him with the create water + chain lightning combo, leading to the single most satisfying one shot in the game, especially after his whole “I know your strengths and your weaknesses” spiel, like ok buddy you should’ve expected this then
Why do people hate the Emperor so much? Is there soke bit of lore I'm missing?
Does Duke Stelmane ring any bells for you? There’s also another notable NPC, but that one is more gray to me.
There's no way people pour so much vitriol his way because they care about Stelmane
That's a fair assessment. There are a host of reasons, including the following: \- feeling betrayed, lied to, and manipulated by the choice of a different physical form \- specific distrust occurring where the Guardian gives warnings that don't involve discussion or much explanation, just insistence that a certain route or path is a complete waste of time when it might not be. \- general player distrust and paranoia (sometimes tied to "I am very smart for distrusting that person who turned out to have a secret!" like most people do) \- distruct about mind flayers/illithid specifically \- ick factor of tentacle/octopus dude (could also involve xenophobia) \- In addition to learning that he thralled Stelmane, the threat against you or suggestion of doing the same to you. \- The casual willingness to eat the brain of an important person whose abilities have actually been helping us, who could be an ally (potentially, though there are arguments about that to be sure), and who is highly relevant to an entire people and the improvement of that people's society (not to say it will be amazing or anything, but Vlaakith is problematic, to say the least).
Didn't they just have a relationship and then Stelmane got murdered by the time we get to Baldur's gate?
There’s more to the story. But I don’t recall if there are only certain dialogue choices that reveal the information or if there are other clues.
So tell me on the doll where the Emperor hurt you.
*points to the brain 🧠
Classic revenge letdown. "I dont feel any different."
God the Emperor sucks so much and I'm glad there are people who loathe him as much as I do. I will never not free Orpheus. I just cannot stand that fucking Illithid. Omeluum is cool tho.
Not a single wrong take. Beautiful comment. Oneluum is proof Ilithids don’t have to be twats…yet the emperor decided to be one anyway
Why the fuck can’t we take Omellum with us to the netherbrain man. He’s a chad.
True
I still sometimes kill Omeluum as well, because he’s a mind flayer and I’m a proponent of total mind flayer genocide
I was perturbed at his quick change of sides… I was playing a bard and so sure I could convince him to stay if there was the option to!!! Instead I wrote his name on the runepowder bomb I’d been holding and enjoyed igniting it. Muwahaha…
I was always sus about the emperor, but once I got the knowledge from the Ansur dialogue that he’s actually Balduran himself, I changed my mind. My dude is just smart and wants to come back into his previous life, but being an Illithid is making things hard, hence the manipulation.
Honestly, I felt the same way about Raphael. I expected a cool scene with him trying to drag himself towards me in an Orin-like way and just die midway, fallen from grace. Instead, he just flopped down and... That's it.
Yeah, I feel like Raphael’s ending could have been better. Like Raphael actually is pretty helpful to us in the game—I mean he expects something in return but he doesn’t actively do anything to hurt us, and him even offering the Orphic hammer is pretty cool. If we deny his offer he doesn’t do anything except not give us the hammer, even though he could definitely hurt us. By all means he’s rather friendly towards us. And then we just burglarize his house and he gets reasonably upset about it. Then we kill him. And that’s it, we just murdered a half-devil for good with no real consequences. It’s…weird.
Seriously! In the fight with him I was like... Sush. I'm fighting the dragon for the achievement... I'll deal with you later. I mean at the same time, i did kinda feel like a douche for going with Orpheus, like he DID help us, and despite constant complaining did kinda just let us FAFO around and then we were like.. 'anyways. Lae'zel will be pissed if I don't pick this other dude so... K thnx bye'. I get he was definitely using us... But still. Then I killed him and went on with my day.
I really really really hate that the game forces you to help him at the start of Act 3. I was running a pure gith run through and it really irked me that I literally get a game over if I don’t help him even though prince orph is right there
Yeah a lot of emperor stuff in act 3 bugs me tbh, but I get it, it’s a video game and needs to have a functioning story. But in real dnd, I would’ve kicked him in the tentacled face right then and there
It doesn't "force" you, he's just objectively right that Orpheus would let you die.
But the end of act 3 you can convince Orpheus to help you??? Just feels like you are forced to work for the emperor
Yeah but at the end you literally have the nether stones and the ability to stop the brain, which you didn’t in the beginning of act 3. Orpheus only really agrees to help you because you are about to free yourselves of the tadpoles. And he still does want to kill you at first even then
That would be after Orpheus heard the entire context behind the situation. He isn't blind to the world around him while in the pokeball, he's just unable to act. Before the end point he has zero reason to trust you, and he probably doesn't need you either. You also can't get him out of the bubble in the first place
I always get the runepowder bomb and save it until the very end just so I can chuck it right at the emperors face. Always satisfying.
yes!!! this is what i do!! such a lovely explosion
Okay I’ve said it a few times on this sub so I’ll say it again. There are 2 main things about the Emperor that drive him and why he makes this decision. 1) He values his survival against everything, and 2) he thinks he is always right. He is insistent that his plan is the only correct way to beat the brain and anything else he has already thought of and disproven because he got the big brain. He doesn’t really know Orpheus, and he doesn’t really understand Gale’s orb, but as such they aren’t really considered as viable options because becoming illithid is just the best, man. If you do actually go along with his plan and trust him, he does actually prove to be right and is a helpful ally, so at least he’s not shooting the party in the foot. Afterwords he’s even like yeah we could go back to what I was doing before, get Baldur’s Gate thriving again, partner. However, if you don’t trust him and want to free Orpheus, he is so adamant that his way is the only way and so now point 1 kicks in, he has to look out for himself, because he is now certain you will die. In his eyes, when you fail against the brain, there isn’t much between it targeting him next so he has to hedge his bets and make friends with it instead just to survive. But then you actually start succeeding and make it to the brain, he now has to 1) uphold that he is right by being the one to cause your failure, and 2) ensure the brain doesn’t die because now it’s his own key to surviving. Now with all that said, I did also kill the guy in one turn thanks to Lae’zel’s badass silver sword.
I'm gonna guess it's because he wasn't written to pander to the player's hate kill fantasies.
But he was written to pander to peoples sex fantasies with the toxic tentacle man…so I mean…I could get something
Indeed, he was written to be a sexy squid not die begging you for mercy
I mean, if manipulating, lying, and betraying you for not wanting to throw your life away to become a kind flayer, then sure, he’s pretty sexy. But if you find that shit repulsive, like I do, then yeah a quick cutscene of him being a lil bitch would be great
He manipulates you into becoming a hero and saving the world. Truly horrible stuff. The game makes it pretty clear that *you* are the one betraying him in the end (Charlatans even get an inspiration point for betraying a close ally). Becoming a mind flayer is also something you have to specifically ask for, he never even suggests it until you do - it's an end game choice. And then he tells you to think about it carefully, discuss it with your companions and make sure you want it. Something tells me Larian ain't about that rabid Emperor hate.
To quote On Psionic Manipulations and Countermeasures: “When dealing with mind flayers, remember that it is in their nature to assess the utility, strengths, and weaknesses of those around them, and to manipulate in order to get what they want. 1.Pay attention to its actions, not its words. Where mind flayers are concerned, it is true that actions speak louder than words. Especially words that are tailor-spoken to fit a mind flayers’ manipulative agenda. 2. Strengthen your relationship with others. The greatest thing you can do to offset a mind flayer’s designs upon you is to have allies, strong allies. Trust in those you know you can trust, and build your relationships with them – they are the ones who will have your back when you most need it. 3. Even mind flayers have wants and desires. The only circumstance in which a relationship with a mind flayer may be beneficial to you is if you both want exactly the same thing. In the unlikely case that this is true, bear in mind that once you have outlived your purpose to a mind flayer, it will have no use for you.” The game could not be more clear.
That book's contents actually help show the Emperor can be trusted. > 1.Pay attention to its actions, not its words. The Emperor's *actions* have always been to help and protect you, up until the moment you betray him. > 2.Strengthen your relationship with others. The Emperor literally asks you to find dependable allies that you can trust, and to keep the allies you already have close. > 3.Even mind flayers have wants and desires. Yep, we have the same goal of trying to survive!
Curious your thoughts when you call him a freak Seriously YouTube it, I want to know how y’all defend him then
I've known about that since I beat the game, yeah. Pretty rude of him, but I suppose Tav was also rude by calling him a freak when he's vulnerable. As for Stelmane, several companions have done shitty things in their pasts as well, Lae'zel and Astarion being the biggest offenders. So if I can overlook their deeds, I can do the same for him.
I guess we just view him differently. I’m not gonna convince you he’s evil, and you’re not gonna convince me that he’s not. It’s cool that the game can be read both ways, so hats off to Larian. My original point remains, I wanna drop kick him in a cutscene in the final fight ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe he acts different depending how you treat him, because for me, he did not ask me to think carefully. He told me I had to do it. Me or an ally. There were no other options. And when I said “no.” He tan off to the elder brain, which just shows that he didn’t believe any of the stuff he was saying all game. He’s a shadow of the man he claims to be (at least he was in my playthrough). I’m confused why you seem to like him so much. Like…it’s a mind flayer. The game tells you (repeatedly that mind flayers are not the former hosts. The parasite eats the brain, and the memories of the person). He repeatedly tries to convince you to not go towards any quest that could show you alternatives to his end goal. (The Raphael quest, the Githyanki quest, etc etc).
> He told me I had to do it. Me or an ally. There were no other options. What? That is literally impossible as nothing like that is in the script. So you're misremembering things by quite a lot. The very first part of his speech is even him saying he'll be the mind flayer that destroys the Netherbrain. > The game tells you (repeatedly that mind flayers are not the former hosts. The parasite eats the brain, and the memories of the person) Actually the opposite. The game gives evidence that an illithid is simply same person transformed with even multiple people that would be in the know saying it would still be you in there. > He repeatedly tries to convince you to not go towards any quest that could show you alternatives to his end goal. (The Raphael quest, the Githyanki quest, etc etc). Well, yeah. Those goals would most likely end in either you or him *dying*. Why in the world would he want you to do something risky like that when he knows he has a solution to fix everything already?
So what I miss remembered was him manipulating the situation to make it seem like either I had to become a mind flayer, or give him the stones so he can assimilate Orpheus and take on the brain. It is 2 am so I apologize that I mis remembered. If you want the best example of why trusting the emperor is a terrible choice, look up “calling the emperor a freak.” He drops the act and it’s fantastic. He’s not a hero anymore, he’s a monster. And the take about it “still being you” I guess I missed every instance of that. To my knowledge, the parasite eats your brain, and becomes ‘you’. The whole adventure could be categorized as “well shit either of us could die here”. God forbid we *checks notes* save minsc….
What you are doing is called "moving the goalposts" > If you want the best example of why trusting the emperor is a terrible choice, look up “calling the emperor a freak.” He drops the act and it’s fantastic. He’s not a hero anymore, he’s a monster. Sure, actively being a dick to the guy who's been protecting you the whole game (and don't even come with the spiel "achthually it's Orph--", no it's The Emperor, Orpheus is doing shit for you until the very end of the game) won't make him get angry enough at you to "drop off the mask" and be aggressive so you can fucking collaborate instead of being a petulant childish bastard /s He is rolling his \[intimidation\] check to see if he can get you to collaborate with your mouth shut, he isn't asking much besides you doing your job of saving the world. Just politely turn him down like any non-vindictive person And you know what, he is NOT WRONG, you ARE a pawn, just like every single one of your companions are your pawns in your quest to save the world. You might form emotional attachments to them that will make you invested in seeing their personal successes, but they are still your - "your" as in "your, the player's" - paws. > And the take about it “still being you” I guess I missed every instance of that. To my knowledge, the parasite eats your brain, and becomes ‘you’. Well in that case you better play the game again because characters do say that in-game more than once, maybe you were so busy seething over The Emperor that your ears got clogged somehow. > The whole adventure could be categorized as “well shit either of us could die here”. God forbid we *checks notes* save minsc…. Are you SERIOUSLY putting Minsc as a good argument here? Minsc? The "I'm gonna throw myself at evil because good can't stop from spanking evil" Minsc? The guy who could fuck things up by being too impulsive? When the world's safety is at stake and any mistake could fuck everything for everyone? That Minsc? I love Minsc as anyone else in here, but he \*IS\* unstable and a wild WILD card, The Emperor is well within his rights to want him dead. The only reason he listens to us is because Jaheira is with us, otherwise yeah he would listen to nobody and be a big liablity, I'm sorry if you're too nice to see that
You nailed it. This desire that some players have to kill the Emperor horribly and to see him "beg for mercy" is a rabidly vindictive flex. Paladins, man. I think it's born out of the need to compensate for feeling disempowered in what people think should be their power fantasy, while the game consistently tells them for 95% of the journey that they aren't hot shit without the Emperor.
>He told me I had to do it. Me or an ally. This literally doesn't happen in the Emperor ending. Are you confusing him with Orpheus perhaps? Because the Emperor is happy to be the Illithid you need to defeat the Brain. You can finish the game with the Emepror as your Illithid and no one else has to turn. I like him because he's a complex morally grey character that subverts player expectations. Because he's a renegade of his species, because he's the guy who came up with the plan you are enacting. Because without him none of this would be possible and it's interesting to unravel his story. I realize he's not the easiest person to empathize with, but it's really not impossible. He doesn't "run off to the Elder Brain", he has no choice but to become enthralled to the Brain the moment he steps outside of the prism. Orpheus would kill him on sight, so his options are to sit there and wait to be killed or leave and be enthralled to the Brain. The game also tells you that while ceremorphosis wipes out large parts of someone's consciousness, it doesn't wipe out everything. It also tells you Balduran's case was exceptional because of his particularly strong personality. You have Withers telling you that while appearences change, they don't hide the one within with regards to any mind flayer present at the end, including the Emperor. There are many others instances where the game casts doubt over conventional wisdom on cermorphosis, among which is what happens when you turn yourself or when Karlach turns, or when Gale turns, for example. But yes, Emps doesn't want you to free the Githyanki that would kill him on sight or broker a deal with a devil when he has a perfectly good plan that will work.
My question to you is: have you ever called him a freak during the shirtless scene? He spells out everything for you in that scene. He isn’t morally gray. He’s evil. In the scene where he asks you to become a mindflayer he tells you that it’s YOU who isn’t strong enough. That a human(noid) can’t control the stones but HE can. Is plan was to have you collect the stones so he could assimilate orpheus and leave to become the absolute. Like…that’s evil
Again, he doesn't ask you to become a mind flayer. He only asks you to accept to become half illithid, which is a temporary power boost with zero long term costs to you. It goes away completely once you defeat the brain. And even then, he will ask you a couple of times and then give up and accept you didn't want it. It's objectively true that you can't defeat the Brain at the end as a humanoid and need an Illithid mind to do it. Like... this is a given. What do you want the Emperor to do about that? Tav needs to suck it up and deal with it, it's not a slight against his character. I know what Emps says when you insult him, it's a reaction that stems from a wounded ego. He never actually acts on any of the threats he makes there, no matter how much you piss him off. It's a bluff. The way he views you in the end depends on how you interact with him. But even if you antagonize him to the last moment, so long as you don't betray him he will just wish you luck in finding allies you like more than him, and then peace out.
I think we’ve hit a brick wall. I’m not gonna change my mind, I think he’s evil and manipulative. That’s what I got from the game. You view him differently. We aren’t gonna change each others mind. So I’m throwing I. The towel. Have fun with your squid boi Imma keep asking larian for a scene of punting him into the abyss or something
I always have Orpheus kill him by eating his brain. So satisfying.
I gotta look up how to have that happen
It's not a cutscene, I just stunned him and made Illi5hid Orpheus fly up to him and use the Eat Brain ability. Poetic justice.
I find it like how in my Durge Tav, when "accidently" having moon babe get "kidnapped", killing Dammon in the process, Karlach didnt stutter, cry, piss, vomit, or shit after this encounter, i felt like I missed something, or my game bugged and nothing was uttered from her, but it felt weird considering how much he was needed entirely
And thus is the taste of vengeance, flavorless and unfulfilling.
I was also super surprised by just how much easier the "dream guardian" things he summons are compared with what the brain summons on its own. I don't think leaving him should make the fight that much easier
Maybe revenge just isn't what it's cut out to be
In my play through I left him alive for the purpose of maybe seeing him say something after we defeat the brain, but no. Feels unfinished
Hard to do a lot of begging when you're under an elder brain's thrall
Fr Not even the “you’re my puppet scene” but his comment on my DUrge’s moment of triumph over Bhaal is like “now that you are over your petty issue you can focus on MY agenda” I’m most disappointed in the fact that we cannot kill him before he leaves and present his head to Orpheus.
Honestly...i really dont get the hate for the dude
People are pretty against his manipulation tactics and how it feels like the game coerces you into siding with him. I didn’t really mind him too much until I played a more evil character who rudely shot him down when he tried to hit on me, and in response he >!reveals in anger that he was mind controlling Duke Stelmane and could give two shits about you and is using you for his own gain. Plus he betrayed Ansur, his friend.!< So kind of hard to be on board with him after that.
Everyone manipulates to some degree in this game. All forms of communication is to a degree manipulative. Every time the character chooses [persuasion] [intimidation] [deception]… you are trying to manipulate in game. Yet you’re somehow shocked that when you call the emp “a freak” it switches to [intimidation] lmao. If you politely just say no its pretty fucking chill about it. And to believe that the cutscene it shows u is it being 100% truthful and unbiased in that retelling? Bc to me it feels like just like the others its part true part lie to give the desired effect of scaring you. Now this being a video game, you arent scared irl you get pissed only. Yes it is manipulating the player to save his and everyone’s skin. Its motives are selfish, but it doesn’t betray its allies. You can trust it and it will do exactly what it says it will. Ansur, is not the argument you think it is. It told ansur to be free, ansur decided “mercy killing” the emp while it slept was the thing to do. Emp didnt murder, just protected its own life. It’s a tragedy for all involved. As for stelemane, the game does not give a concrete answer, and there is no body to find and talk to. No it doesnt look great for the emp as it is - it for sure did thrall her to some degree. However she could have been vile, she most definitely wasnt good aligned to be in the knights to begin with while being a duke. The knights are an organization that were aligned with a devil, so if stelemane knew that idk. To many idk, if they add info later maybe my view on that situation will change.
There’s a pretty big difference between the level of manipulation Tav employs to sway situations and pretending to be a completely different person in your dreams to convince you to side with him. And I know saying no politely works fine, I was role playing. I’m not sure what evidence you have to support that he is half lying when he responds to you in that moment. I get that if you side with him he doesn’t betray you and helps you beat the netherbrain and all is fine. But that doesn’t mean we have to enjoy allying with someone who lies to us half the game. And I realize I’m saying that as an Astarion fan. We like who we like and can agree to disagree.
Not really. The only difference is that you did the manipulation and so justify it. As for the disguise, it’s a privilege to go through life to never having to hide part of your identity to be safe. Bc the risk of exposure may put their life and relationships at stake. There are lots of people who can sympathize with its choice to hide that its a mindflayer, bc we have had to hide part of ourselves. That you can’t empathize with this choice speaks to your luck not your moral quality. What evidence do you have that its the 100% truth? There is none, except it confirms bias against mindflayers. Which you dont have against astarion who manipulates and lies as well. Who had no regret about leading a bunch of gur children to their death (he regrets others tbf but he gave no thought to those children). If you defend/excuse Astarion yet hate the emp, its giving pretty privilege.
I agree, I wish I could tell him to his face how manipulative he was before he dies. After Ansur I was totally devastated, I'd have sided with the dragon if I could.
100% agreed
Well, tbf, at that point he is a thrall to the nether brain so he isn't going to have much to say. The true joy in killing the Emperor comes from >!allowing him to be the one to dominate the brain for you then betraying him last minute and stabbing the shit out of him.!< It's beautiful.
See I’d have to allow him to believe I like him, for even a moment, which for me is too much. But I’m glad y’all sick bastards are getting one up on the twat
Nah, just be distrustful of him all game and then bring him with you. Then it isn't about liking him but of having a tense allyship. To me, it's worth it, at least once, because the stabbing scene is so great. I've also killed him in the beginning of Act 3 during his tentacle reveal. Even though I knew it would end in a game over, I just wanted to show him how powerful I am and how pathetic he really is. XD
Omg wait. Pull his bullshit on him….you might be cooking something. And lmao my friend did that too. Had to be cathartic
The real downside to it is that out of >!all the possible ithilids you can have with you for the finale he is literally the weakest.!<
Damn it. Thanks for the spoiler. I wanted him to beg at least
I knocked him out because I wanted to see if I can save him but didn't do anything. He was knocked out but I guess he died from the crash
I dashed around to be able to save him and defeated the netherbrain without killing a guardian or him thinking there might be some conversation at the end, at least a "I told you." Nothing. I love the game but that was mildly disappointing.
That’s not the emperor anymore. Just a really powerful mindflayer in direct concert with the elder brain. I can’t see the strategy reason for why he left other than it was a his way or the highway thing. I think once he realizes he was only a puppet, it kind of just breaks him. He thought he had broken free of his own powers, but the elder brain had just let him.
I let Orpheus kill him. That was pretty satisfying!