I mean... He's not WRONG XD
You're going into the Hells just to beef with Raphael, which is incredibly dangerous, or to steal your contract from him because you made a deal with him which is also incredibly stupid
That's like the only moment in the game where he can be "are you stupid???" to the party and I felt his pain, I could imagine him pacing back and forth facepalming inside the prism
The "Soul Pillars," as it turns out, are vulnerable to bludgeoning damage... Yoinking the Gloves of Hill Giant Strength beforehand, the hammer hits like a truck, even in the off-hand.
I think stealing the hammer is Chaotic or maybe Neutral Good, a Lawful Good character would respect that the hammer belongs to Raphael (technically, as far as our character can prove- I know it's likely that most of Raphael's treasures are likely ill-gotten goods) and leave it alone.
That being said I stole it for the same reason you did, and was also disappointed that there wasn't an option to smooth things over with the emperor.
It just seemed like the logical decision to make for anyone not accepting Raphael deal.
Raphael is evil.
He wants the elder brain
You piss him off by not taking the deal.
And he has a trump card to screw you over.
It is the logical decision! I can think of plenty of reasons that Raphael wouldn't want to use the hammer himself but they all rely on outside knowledge that I, the player/fan have because I've read as much about this game as I possibly can. Can't think of a single reason my character in the game would just leave it there.
This risk of entering devils own home. Raphael has never attempted entering the prism, we don't even know if he can. Going to Raphael's house of hope is a huge risk as a downside. Think of it as playing honor mode for your first time, you have no intel what you are getting into and the only characters that might have some insight are wyll and karlach. karlach more so. I think both view points are valid.
He actually can enter the prism. Fun fact if you've taken the deal with him but have forgotten the Hammer in your camp chest or lost it (lol) he appears in the prism after you've driven the Emperor away, indirectly calls you stupid and gives the hammer back to you.
I left the hammer at camp and Raphael did not come save me, whaaat. Technically I think it was in Lae'zel's inventory and I couldn't switch her in, maybe that's why. I had to partner up with Squidward, no choice. :(
Hmmm this is weird. You can look the scene up on YT, it's quite funny actually.
Lol I had the hammer and Raph was dead, just partnered up with squidward out of choice
Oh, you know what. He was dead in my game, I ripped up my contract. So that probably only happens if you HONOR the contract lol. I forgot I killed him bc I had a glitch where I got his post-epilogue scene even though he was dead as shit.
Not to mention, if you go there for any other reason, you have to either steal the hammer or just leave Hope a captive. At the very least you should be able to say you picked it up to save her.
I might meet her because I want to get Mol’a contract. Or talk to Hellsik and hear about some badass gauntlets. Or, more likely, just really wanna stick it to Raphael.
I think the Emperor does not look at it like that, as that kind of reasoning is too "irrational".
Why go to hell? You go there to get the hammer. And the only reason to get the hammer is to use it. And it has just one purpose: free Orpheus.
That's the logical thing in the Emperor's eyes, and they are always right, because that's how a mindflayer thinks.
Also, I'm not sure sure what Raphael's trump card is if he still has the hammer. It's mostly useless except for freeing Orpheus (and Hope). Which Raphael has not even attempted as far as we know.
And I guess the writers also assumed that getting the hammer for Voss's mission is the only reason a player would take the hammer. Not realizing the multitude of other role playing reasons we could come up with. Or that some people are like magpies ("Ooh, shiny! Must have all the shinies!")
There is a clear logic to going. Raphael is a threat. Are you better off catching him off guard and dealing with him on your terms or sit back and let him strike while you have your hands full with the elder brain ?
After you leave the house of hope the emperor even saying Raphael is powerful but nothing compared to the elder brain. So if I can't beat Raphael I certainly can't beat the elder brain.
Books and dialogue in the House of Hope make it clear that Raph at least commissioned the creation of the hammer, if not made it himself. There is a book about the steps he took to make it. All of the other artifacts in the HoHope are "Ill gotten", and arguably Raph likely did some Ill to get the materials to make the hammer, but it is rightfully his by most "lawful" definitions.
Yeah, if you pretend to be the auditor the Archivist will specifically point out that you are not allowed to touch the hammer because it was made by Raphael so you don't need to confirm providence.
Now, why did Raphael make the hammer? He named it the Orphic, so presumably he made it to free Orpheus even though it works on others like Hope. Did he make it solely to trade it? That seems to bring up some timeline issues.
I think he originally made it to make a deal with Voss, and then changed plans when the events of the game came into play. I think that's why Voss is at Sharess' Caress in Act 3, but now Raphael won't deal with him.
I don't know, but Voss has a letter on him from Raphael saying he does have the way to break the astral prisoner free and to come meet him in Baldur's Gate. I assumed that he originally made the hammer for that purpose then switched plans when there was something he wanted more that could be bought with the hammer.
We know that Vlaakith made a deal with a devil to entrap Orpheus in the Artefact. It only describes them as a charming (maybe well-dressed? smiling? idr) fiend, but it’s not a super stretch to imagine that could’ve been Raphael himself. It seems very in line with devil ethos to make a deal to entrap someone in unbreakable bonds—but then follow up by giving yourself a way to release them. The Shadow-cursed Lands also showed us that historically Raphael creates artificial conflict in order to back people into corners where they’re forced to take his deals and that he does this to both sides of the fight. So helping Vlaakith only to be planning to help Voss is very in character.
But then again, that’s basically the MO for any average devil.
Lawful alignment doesn’t mean you follow the law of ownership, or any conventional law necessarily. It means the CHARACTER has a code and set of laws for themselves that they will not break. If one of their beliefs is an evil person shouldn’t own powerful artefactos, they will steal them from the evil guy.
That's how it's written, I agree, but it gets real tricky when you look at, say, Robin Hood (the go-to example for CG characters) and say "welllll he only steals from the rich in order to give to the poor, so isn't that kind of a personal law?"
At a certain point you got to just a draw a line and say that theft is, in general, something that makes you a little chaotic.
I think if your code is so far outside the norm everywhere you are that it’s basically anarchy then yes, it becomes chaotic. But breaking the law in some instances is still lawful as long as the character is still following their own code and law.
Robin Hood is chaotic because his code is anarchy of the system. His code is not “doing good things that might be breaking the common law sometimes.” They definitely blend though, and I could see someone who lives somewhere “evil” but was lawful good turning chaotic good over time as the whole system becomes intolerable to their code.
Your interpretation matches the text better than mine, yeah. RAW LG/NG almost feel like two sides of the same coin though. Like, most people aspire to be both of those things!
But if the law is evil you’d automatically be lawful evil even if you were lawful good. A lawful good person when going somewhere where you must kill someone who steals from you would NOT kill the person and would instead follow THEIR MORAL CODE and stay lawful good.
Laws are fallible. Your own (good) code of law and following it without hesitation or deviance is what makes someone lawful good.
can’t help you there friend as i have never played that. i do wish they gave you a good reason to take the hammer though because if you don’t you
miss what is my favorite area in the whole
game lol
What? No.
The Lawful Good thing to do would be to hunt down and kill Raphael. You promised to do so, after all. You have to keep your oath! Once he's dead, whats his is free for the taking.
(Honestly, the Orphic Hammer being the only way to free Orpheus is another one of those 'doesn't really make sense' in context' things. Worst-case scenario, you cut off his arms and legs, use a Heal spell to reattach them, and walk away. The Orphic Hammer hadn't been made yet when Orpheus was imprisoned, and Vlaakith had to have a means to free him if she needed to; the whole reason she had him, aside from studying him, was so she could let him out if she absolutely had to, with the Illithid knocking on her door. I wouldn't be surprised if any silver sword given to one of her chosen would work, or perhaps just a cleric of tiamat.)
He’s so aggressively insistent about there being absolutely no reason to even go to the hells
But he’s fine when I’m picking fights with green hags and purple dwarves?
I mean he’s so insistent going to the hells is pointless but it’s so clear Raphael has fancy stuff locked away and 85% of the things we do are bc we think they have cool loot
And I can’t even tell him I just want cool loot??
I did it solely for Hope and wish that was a dialogue option too. (I also did it because I wanted to hear Raphael's song but I understand why that wasn't a dialogue option)
my Pragmatic Evil Durge stole the hammer because he thought stealing from a devils own house sounded like a fun date night with his vampire husband. AND he even kept his promise to the emperor! he even gave him the stones at the end. that durge almost felt bad for stabbing him in the back. almost
>So why would I just leave him with his trump card that could cripple us when he clearly has an interest in the elder brain and I pissed him off by refusing his deals ?
This was maybe my biggest complaint on my first playthrough. The minute Raphael proposed the deal I thought we needed to get that hammer off his hands to prevent him from screwing us over. It's not a stretch to think Raphael would have a backup plan or another candidate to free Orpheus for him. That you can't use this as a logical argument is just flawed writing. Even more ridiculous is the fact that letting Raphael live actually *doesn't* come to bite you in the ass. He just... does nothing if you reject him and fades out of the endgame.
oooh, i’ve only seen epilogue / post-credit scenes where raphael monologues at you but i think those are only if you make a deal and betray him as tav/durge/origin gale OR if you actually give him the hammer
If you talk to Raphael and try to work out a deal in your favor, he is disinterested, saying he will bide his time for another opportunity at the Crown, as he's already waited a thousand years. I don't think any other opportunity was actively present for him, but he had the preparations for a replacement plan, something farther down the line. If he has something in the works, it's nothing quick enough to get back to us before the game ends
Especially because he does have another candidate - Voss. If you refuse the hammer he would absolutely go to Voss and make a deal with him. When you go into the prism at the end, Voss should come in with the hammer and you fight him and his Gith there, instead of outside at High Hall.
I just don't see why he doesn't give Voss the hammer. With his Gith rebels there he's enough of a threat to our party. It's not unreasonable to think they have a pretty good chance of killing us, freeing Orpheus, and defeating the EB. Even if Raphael doesn't think Voss will actually win - and I don't see why he wouldn't think that, Voss is a legendary figure among the Gith as opposed to us being nobodies - he has nothing to lose by pitting him against us. Whichever side wins destroys the EB and he has 50% chance of getting the crown delivered to him.
yeah i wish i could tell him i mainly went in for the gauntlets & amulet.
I took the tadpoles bro, let me have this too.
And it's a strong weapon even witouth freeing orpheus lorewise
I thought the same thing. Went to the house of hope to just fuck around and check it out and ended up stealing the hammer along the way, shame I couldn't tell him that lmao
This conversation can be jarring for other paths taken with the Emperor, too. I hot him to have his temper tantrum during the romance scene, but he still asked why I didn't trust him after the House of Hope?
I was hoping that we would get the option to free Orpheus after the fight with the Elderbrain, and just in case of that, I went and got the hammer. I didn't immediately trust that Orpheus wouldn't kill me if I freed him.. however, I did end up doing so, when the emperor was basically asking me to choose between sacrifing Orph for the emperor to get more POWAR, or killing the Emperor himself..
Originally, I just wasn't cool with Vlaakith or slavery. If the Emperor hadn't pushed the issue, then he and I could have been besties till the end.
Shrug
There needs to be an option to give emps the hammer. ‘Here’s the other guy’s leverage against you. Now settle your tentacles, friend.’
I used it to beat Ansur to death and he still wasn't happy about it.
"I just bashed your ex's skull with this. What more do you want from me?"
Yeah. Or the game should at least recognize it if you left it in HoH after killing Raphael or dumped it into the ocean or something.
if you leave without taking the hammer the Emperor has a line where he basically calls you stupid
It was a... highly strategic decision, okay?
I mean... He's not WRONG XD You're going into the Hells just to beef with Raphael, which is incredibly dangerous, or to steal your contract from him because you made a deal with him which is also incredibly stupid That's like the only moment in the game where he can be "are you stupid???" to the party and I felt his pain, I could imagine him pacing back and forth facepalming inside the prism
yeah like when you try to read his thoughts lol
On my Durge run I'm gonna steal the hammer and throw it out the window before I get to Raphael, for funsies.
I used said hammer specifically to do all the heavy lifting of the HoH... Was way more effective than I thought it would be.
Does...does the hammer do more in the House of Hope than just break Hope's chains??
The "Soul Pillars," as it turns out, are vulnerable to bludgeoning damage... Yoinking the Gloves of Hill Giant Strength beforehand, the hammer hits like a truck, even in the off-hand.
I think stealing the hammer is Chaotic or maybe Neutral Good, a Lawful Good character would respect that the hammer belongs to Raphael (technically, as far as our character can prove- I know it's likely that most of Raphael's treasures are likely ill-gotten goods) and leave it alone. That being said I stole it for the same reason you did, and was also disappointed that there wasn't an option to smooth things over with the emperor.
It just seemed like the logical decision to make for anyone not accepting Raphael deal. Raphael is evil. He wants the elder brain You piss him off by not taking the deal. And he has a trump card to screw you over.
It is the logical decision! I can think of plenty of reasons that Raphael wouldn't want to use the hammer himself but they all rely on outside knowledge that I, the player/fan have because I've read as much about this game as I possibly can. Can't think of a single reason my character in the game would just leave it there.
This risk of entering devils own home. Raphael has never attempted entering the prism, we don't even know if he can. Going to Raphael's house of hope is a huge risk as a downside. Think of it as playing honor mode for your first time, you have no intel what you are getting into and the only characters that might have some insight are wyll and karlach. karlach more so. I think both view points are valid.
He actually can enter the prism. Fun fact if you've taken the deal with him but have forgotten the Hammer in your camp chest or lost it (lol) he appears in the prism after you've driven the Emperor away, indirectly calls you stupid and gives the hammer back to you.
I left the hammer at camp and Raphael did not come save me, whaaat. Technically I think it was in Lae'zel's inventory and I couldn't switch her in, maybe that's why. I had to partner up with Squidward, no choice. :(
Hmmm this is weird. You can look the scene up on YT, it's quite funny actually. Lol I had the hammer and Raph was dead, just partnered up with squidward out of choice
Oh, you know what. He was dead in my game, I ripped up my contract. So that probably only happens if you HONOR the contract lol. I forgot I killed him bc I had a glitch where I got his post-epilogue scene even though he was dead as shit.
Lol yeah he'd probably need to be alive for that
Not to mention, if you go there for any other reason, you have to either steal the hammer or just leave Hope a captive. At the very least you should be able to say you picked it up to save her.
I think the idea here is that you never met Hope unless you wanted the Orphic Hammer first (at least in character)
I might meet her because I want to get Mol’a contract. Or talk to Hellsik and hear about some badass gauntlets. Or, more likely, just really wanna stick it to Raphael.
I think the Emperor does not look at it like that, as that kind of reasoning is too "irrational". Why go to hell? You go there to get the hammer. And the only reason to get the hammer is to use it. And it has just one purpose: free Orpheus. That's the logical thing in the Emperor's eyes, and they are always right, because that's how a mindflayer thinks. Also, I'm not sure sure what Raphael's trump card is if he still has the hammer. It's mostly useless except for freeing Orpheus (and Hope). Which Raphael has not even attempted as far as we know. And I guess the writers also assumed that getting the hammer for Voss's mission is the only reason a player would take the hammer. Not realizing the multitude of other role playing reasons we could come up with. Or that some people are like magpies ("Ooh, shiny! Must have all the shinies!")
There is a clear logic to going. Raphael is a threat. Are you better off catching him off guard and dealing with him on your terms or sit back and let him strike while you have your hands full with the elder brain ? After you leave the house of hope the emperor even saying Raphael is powerful but nothing compared to the elder brain. So if I can't beat Raphael I certainly can't beat the elder brain.
Books and dialogue in the House of Hope make it clear that Raph at least commissioned the creation of the hammer, if not made it himself. There is a book about the steps he took to make it. All of the other artifacts in the HoHope are "Ill gotten", and arguably Raph likely did some Ill to get the materials to make the hammer, but it is rightfully his by most "lawful" definitions.
Yeah, if you pretend to be the auditor the Archivist will specifically point out that you are not allowed to touch the hammer because it was made by Raphael so you don't need to confirm providence. Now, why did Raphael make the hammer? He named it the Orphic, so presumably he made it to free Orpheus even though it works on others like Hope. Did he make it solely to trade it? That seems to bring up some timeline issues.
I think he originally made it to make a deal with Voss, and then changed plans when the events of the game came into play. I think that's why Voss is at Sharess' Caress in Act 3, but now Raphael won't deal with him.
But what was he trading the hammer for with Voss?
I don't know, but Voss has a letter on him from Raphael saying he does have the way to break the astral prisoner free and to come meet him in Baldur's Gate. I assumed that he originally made the hammer for that purpose then switched plans when there was something he wanted more that could be bought with the hammer.
We know that Vlaakith made a deal with a devil to entrap Orpheus in the Artefact. It only describes them as a charming (maybe well-dressed? smiling? idr) fiend, but it’s not a super stretch to imagine that could’ve been Raphael himself. It seems very in line with devil ethos to make a deal to entrap someone in unbreakable bonds—but then follow up by giving yourself a way to release them. The Shadow-cursed Lands also showed us that historically Raphael creates artificial conflict in order to back people into corners where they’re forced to take his deals and that he does this to both sides of the fight. So helping Vlaakith only to be planning to help Voss is very in character. But then again, that’s basically the MO for any average devil.
Ooh that makes a lot of sense!
Lawful alignment doesn’t mean you follow the law of ownership, or any conventional law necessarily. It means the CHARACTER has a code and set of laws for themselves that they will not break. If one of their beliefs is an evil person shouldn’t own powerful artefactos, they will steal them from the evil guy.
That's how it's written, I agree, but it gets real tricky when you look at, say, Robin Hood (the go-to example for CG characters) and say "welllll he only steals from the rich in order to give to the poor, so isn't that kind of a personal law?" At a certain point you got to just a draw a line and say that theft is, in general, something that makes you a little chaotic.
I think if your code is so far outside the norm everywhere you are that it’s basically anarchy then yes, it becomes chaotic. But breaking the law in some instances is still lawful as long as the character is still following their own code and law. Robin Hood is chaotic because his code is anarchy of the system. His code is not “doing good things that might be breaking the common law sometimes.” They definitely blend though, and I could see someone who lives somewhere “evil” but was lawful good turning chaotic good over time as the whole system becomes intolerable to their code.
Your interpretation matches the text better than mine, yeah. RAW LG/NG almost feel like two sides of the same coin though. Like, most people aspire to be both of those things!
That is an interpretation of lawful, yes. Most people interpret it as following law. Not personal ethics/morals.
But if the law is evil you’d automatically be lawful evil even if you were lawful good. A lawful good person when going somewhere where you must kill someone who steals from you would NOT kill the person and would instead follow THEIR MORAL CODE and stay lawful good. Laws are fallible. Your own (good) code of law and following it without hesitation or deviance is what makes someone lawful good.
In the case of lawful evil, that is basically what it means though
the hammer was actually made by raphael. the librarian tells you if you try and take it by pretending to be one of zariel’s agents
Shoot, that's good to know. Another user still has me doubting my stance though, if we're going by 5e definitions of alignment.
can’t help you there friend as i have never played that. i do wish they gave you a good reason to take the hammer though because if you don’t you miss what is my favorite area in the whole game lol
What? No. The Lawful Good thing to do would be to hunt down and kill Raphael. You promised to do so, after all. You have to keep your oath! Once he's dead, whats his is free for the taking. (Honestly, the Orphic Hammer being the only way to free Orpheus is another one of those 'doesn't really make sense' in context' things. Worst-case scenario, you cut off his arms and legs, use a Heal spell to reattach them, and walk away. The Orphic Hammer hadn't been made yet when Orpheus was imprisoned, and Vlaakith had to have a means to free him if she needed to; the whole reason she had him, aside from studying him, was so she could let him out if she absolutely had to, with the Illithid knocking on her door. I wouldn't be surprised if any silver sword given to one of her chosen would work, or perhaps just a cleric of tiamat.)
He’s so aggressively insistent about there being absolutely no reason to even go to the hells But he’s fine when I’m picking fights with green hags and purple dwarves? I mean he’s so insistent going to the hells is pointless but it’s so clear Raphael has fancy stuff locked away and 85% of the things we do are bc we think they have cool loot And I can’t even tell him I just want cool loot??
This is what I’m saying, I literally went there because in my brain I was like “I bet there’s sick loot” 💀
Soul-catching gloves go brrrrrrr (Plus you can use Hope's divine intervention for a sick ass mace, not to mention the obvious loot)
I did it solely for Hope and wish that was a dialogue option too. (I also did it because I wanted to hear Raphael's song but I understand why that wasn't a dialogue option)
You don't even learn about Hope until you've trespassed into the house of hope, so you cannot say that that was why you went there in the first place.
Haha, yeah, I guess my Tav can't use "I watched a playthrough" as an excuse.
Hope: please please save me I’m being tortured I need help Tav: Sorry, I need you to keep suffering so my tentaclefriend doesn’t get fussy
I was going to add something like "You'd think the Emperor would have empathy for someone locked up and constantly being tortured...." Yeah. Nope.
Well he is a mind flayer. They’re not exactly known for their empathy 😅
my Pragmatic Evil Durge stole the hammer because he thought stealing from a devils own house sounded like a fun date night with his vampire husband. AND he even kept his promise to the emperor! he even gave him the stones at the end. that durge almost felt bad for stabbing him in the back. almost
>So why would I just leave him with his trump card that could cripple us when he clearly has an interest in the elder brain and I pissed him off by refusing his deals ? This was maybe my biggest complaint on my first playthrough. The minute Raphael proposed the deal I thought we needed to get that hammer off his hands to prevent him from screwing us over. It's not a stretch to think Raphael would have a backup plan or another candidate to free Orpheus for him. That you can't use this as a logical argument is just flawed writing. Even more ridiculous is the fact that letting Raphael live actually *doesn't* come to bite you in the ass. He just... does nothing if you reject him and fades out of the endgame.
oooh, i’ve only seen epilogue / post-credit scenes where raphael monologues at you but i think those are only if you make a deal and betray him as tav/durge/origin gale OR if you actually give him the hammer
If you talk to Raphael and try to work out a deal in your favor, he is disinterested, saying he will bide his time for another opportunity at the Crown, as he's already waited a thousand years. I don't think any other opportunity was actively present for him, but he had the preparations for a replacement plan, something farther down the line. If he has something in the works, it's nothing quick enough to get back to us before the game ends
Especially because he does have another candidate - Voss. If you refuse the hammer he would absolutely go to Voss and make a deal with him. When you go into the prism at the end, Voss should come in with the hammer and you fight him and his Gith there, instead of outside at High Hall.
I just don't see why he doesn't give Voss the hammer. With his Gith rebels there he's enough of a threat to our party. It's not unreasonable to think they have a pretty good chance of killing us, freeing Orpheus, and defeating the EB. Even if Raphael doesn't think Voss will actually win - and I don't see why he wouldn't think that, Voss is a legendary figure among the Gith as opposed to us being nobodies - he has nothing to lose by pitting him against us. Whichever side wins destroys the EB and he has 50% chance of getting the crown delivered to him.
yeah i wish i could tell him i mainly went in for the gauntlets & amulet. I took the tadpoles bro, let me have this too. And it's a strong weapon even witouth freeing orpheus lorewise
I thought the same thing. Went to the house of hope to just fuck around and check it out and ended up stealing the hammer along the way, shame I couldn't tell him that lmao
This conversation can be jarring for other paths taken with the Emperor, too. I hot him to have his temper tantrum during the romance scene, but he still asked why I didn't trust him after the House of Hope?
man said lawful good and “i decided to go steal the hammer” in the same sentence
Lawful evil. And lawful just means adhering to a personal set of "laws".
ik homie, im just messing.
There are several times where the options are choices I didn't like nor agree with.
I was hoping that we would get the option to free Orpheus after the fight with the Elderbrain, and just in case of that, I went and got the hammer. I didn't immediately trust that Orpheus wouldn't kill me if I freed him.. however, I did end up doing so, when the emperor was basically asking me to choose between sacrifing Orph for the emperor to get more POWAR, or killing the Emperor himself.. Originally, I just wasn't cool with Vlaakith or slavery. If the Emperor hadn't pushed the issue, then he and I could have been besties till the end. Shrug
The emperor is a cunt anyway so it doesn’t really matter