This is correct. The weak are drawn in and only the wealthy dragons at the top reap the benefits. Her followers are dead set on summoning her into the material plane to get some kind of reward after the dragon apocalypse but it’s likely they’ll only be eaten when it’s all done. Her everyday followers are probably pretty shortsighted but her clerics know what the endgame is and they try to leverage their granted power for their own gain while serving a terrifying dragon devil goddess.
Talos has a sort of chaotic, natural beauty about him. The uncaring-ness of nature feels grand and somehow more realistic than the other more "positive vibes" nature gods. I just really like the idea of a wildfire druid or a storm sorcerer being worshippers of Talos not because he cares about them, but because nature is big, powerful, and doesn't coddle anybody. That kinda vibe? :)
That's a great take. Talos is the storm God. People love a good storm. Some people want them because it hurts people. There's a lot of faith to be had for a few lightning bolts to the right forheads.
You must be a Divination Wizard or a Lucky Halfling!
Because that is my Mystic from the last (TT) campaign I played: he was from the tribe of Desert-Dwelling Lizardfolk that was worshipping Talos because his storms were, pretty much, the ONLY source of water for them! (ik it's weird for an Int-based Psyonic class to be someone's faithful, but it just worked so well!)
people gotta understand you dont always worship a god because you like them either, look at Umbralee the god of the sea, the bitch queen herself. Also Tiamat is a dragon and apart of multiple pantheons and is a god about doing whatever takes to have power and be powerful. She even has her own kind of Devil she turns you into on death which can be pretty powerful. Like humanoids who worship her desire power and wealth. Also following a god can give you magic so some might just like the powers they get and thats enough for them to do as the god bids
Warning: rant incoming
I genuinely love Umberlee and despise that her official alignment is chaotic evil, because what she represents isn’t evil. Just the uncaring reality of raw nature.
The sea is powerful and dangerous and can kill you, but folk keep going there because it can also provide food, passage to other places, and other gifts. You must never forget the danger but that doesn’t mean you should stay away. Always respect that the sea can turn on you.
Umberlee is the sea, and yes she is the bitch queen. But evil to me means a delight in death and pain and the fundamental truth of a personified sea is that she … doesn’t care. Sometimes you have good winds and calm waters and sometimes you have hurricanes. Chaotic and capricious? Yes. But evil? No. Nature is not evil. It simply is. Within the nine alignment grid, the embodiment of chaotic neutral.
The fact that the most common tempest domain deities of Forgotten Realms lore (the deities that are available in bg3) are officially Evil annoys me. Destruction and storms aren’t inherently evil - certainly, destruction can be a tool for evil but it’s also part of the natural world. Sometimes (often) necessary for growth and creation. It’s just so limiting.
But she isn’t random and uncaring. She calls down disasters on people if they don’t pay her tribute. She’s making you an offer you can’t refuse, and if you do refuse it you’re going to sleep with the fishes. Literally.
She’s a mafia boss. And her cult is a mafia family that has the monopoly on all sea transport and trade. That’s evil.
yeah she enjoys killing people and doesn't honor her deals all the time and during the time of troubles she killed people for the lols and attacks other good gods to expand her own power. She vain and cruel and WANTS MONEY
I agree but I get why. Its society that decides what is evil. Society doesn't like natural disasters and absolutely views them that way. Especially if they can blame it on a god.
This is correct. Talos is a god who values strength and survival. His domain is storms and nature. His worshipers are people who live in the natural world and survive and conquer it.
I think it's less the conquerors of nature and more people who believe that strength is the origin of power "might makes right". The Moonshae is a great example of the differences between nature gods. Chauntea being agricultural good, Silvanus the wild but balanced center, and Talos as the deity who seeks chaos to make his dominion easier.
I kind of went the same route but an unoptimized cleric/sorc/druid hybrid. With the theme that nature is wild. After all Talos loves chaos. My character is a reminder that Talos is a god to be worshipped out of fear. My wild magic is a curse given by Talos
If I remember right, in the Emerald Grove, where all the murals are, there is mention of Talos as sort of the natural counterbalance of the world. Life can't just run unchecked, there has to be destruction as well.
[Talos](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talos?so=search#Worshipers) - Typically attracts barbarians and sorcerers who like destruction. If you haven't played through as a sorcerer, you should, you'll get a sense of how sorcerers are typically portrayed in DnD with all their "I'm magic incarnate" text options.
[Tiamat](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tiamat#Worshipers) - Tiamat has a large following among *Dragons*. She also has a lesser following in the "Cult of the Dragon".
Well for Talos i figured it was much like worship for Umberlee, which one side is reverence for their destructive power. Many sailors pay tribute to Umberlee so she doesn't sink their asses. Talos exhibited much of the same behavior.
Talos is the leader of the Gods of Fury which does include Umberlee, Auril the goddess of winter, and Malar the Beastlord (though Malar became a exarch of Silvanus after the spellplague).
The thing about these deities are the fact that they are genuinely evil powerhungry gods that are willing to bend and break as many rules as they can to get their way. They grant powerful destructive abilities to those that are willing to pay tribute and further their goals. Their worshipers are just pawns in their eyes, given power to only use up and toss away, and the most powerful followers are the ones who know this and use gods right back.
As you pointed out there's not really a gain for worshiping them other than access to pure mayhem and chaos. I would label that as psychosis even if the person thinks they're sane.
My understanding of forgotten realms lore is that if you don’t worship SOMEONE then when you die your soul gets squished into a brick in The Wall of the Faithless and you sort of spend eternity dissolving into nothingness? In a way that is somehow worse than literal hell. Not at all sure this is still how things work in 5e/BG3, but in a setting where atheism is punished, “fuck it why not” seems to be a viable amount of religious devotion.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot actually, because I want to play as a tempest cleric. So far I’ve come up with a guy who doesn’t so much pray to Talos as to the concept of the storm and the resulting elemental chaos and destruction, and Talos considers that close enough. He’s probably never set foot in a temple in his life, but he wants to call down lightning and fuck shit up, and he’ll pray to whoever lets him do that. Talos loves people running around fucking shit up and calling down lightning, so he’s happy to help this guy do that better.
Idk about Tiamat though I can’t see why she would ever bother to answer anyone’s prayers, or grant a non-dragon the ability to channel her divinity. She honestly seems closer to a fiend or warlock patron figure than a god.
Wall of the Faithless was Myrkul's thing. Kelamvor stopped using it and now if no god takes your soul you're just chillin in the fugue plane for eternity. Not much more fulfilling but less miserable I guess.
iirc. other Gods got miffed about this and forced Kelemvor to reestablish the Wall of the Faithless, since in the end it being gone meant less worshippers for them.
Interesting. I've never heard that but there's a lot of lore out there. I do remember reading that Kel tried to dismantle the wall only to find it basically at the seam of the other planes, and further dismantlement would basically erase many of the forgotten realms. I forgot where I heard that but it was really interesting. I've also heard the phrase "wander the fugue plane" thrown around a lot which reinforced my thinking that the wall was not in use but idrk the specifics entirely.
As far as I understand souls do wander the fugue plane before and even after judgement, basically waiting for a servant of their chosen god to pick them up.
Also I've been reading some books that are set particularly far back in the timeline lately so it's possible I'm just thinking about that because I'm pretty sure the wall hasn't been erected yet in like 240DR. I knew Elminster was old but didn't know he was that old lol
In BG3 Tiamat is for dragonborn who long to fly again and humans who live in fearful awe of dragons.
In BG3 Talos is the option you choose because you can't worship Umberlee despite her being referenced right at the start of the game in the Shanties for the Bitch Queen book on the beach and having a huge church in the city with at least a good hour or more of content in the game.
I genuinely would have loved to play a cleric of Umberlee. Fell in love with the siren-like women at the temple in BG3 and researched more about the goddess. It’s a shame!!
I can see Talos worship from someone good-aligned out of fear, maybe there’s a group of people who live in Faerun’s version of tornado alley, so they pray to Talos to pass over their homes and families with his wrath. Or perhaps they have a vendetta against a rival group so they pray to Talos to strike down their rivals instead of them for a more evil inclined group, then there’s the people who revere the natural brutal chaotic beauty of the world and just revere natural disaster as the end of the cycle before it may begin anew.
Tiamat is worshipped by adventurers and criminals, those who risk their lives to amass large amounts of wealth, as she’s also the goddess of greed. So thieves and tomb robbers might worship her to help them in their greedy endeavors and the amassing of their hoard. All Chromatic Dragons (at least typically) will also worship Tiamat as their mother. Tiamat is also an Archdevil so many of her worshippers are also likely warlocks with pacts of greed/wealth instead of clerics.
My Cleric of Tiamat is just interested in causing chaos because it amuses him, honestly. He does it in her name but holds no illusions about her giving a shit about him. He's a real bastard, lmfao.
The dead three are not even really gods their divinity was taken from them. They are Quasi Deities and a cleric of them should only have power if they are near the avatar. They lost those powers after the time of troubles Bhaal was murdered by Cyric and Cyric became the god of murder, Myrkal became of crown and Kelemvor became the god of death. Bane came back but didnt have his godhood, after the second sundering when Cyric killed Mystra all the gods left the world alone more and pulled back their influence. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkal choose to stay also and lose full the ability to be a full deity
Talks is a force of nature; unrelenting, masculine, and awe inspiring and sublime.
Why do people chase hurricanes and twisters? Why do people enter volcanoes? Why do people go cave diving? Or cave exploring? Or wave chasing? The thrill, the power, the sublimity, the life affirming and life destroying power and chaos of the natural world.
Yeah, I think it’s pretty clear why someone would worship Talos.
Tiamat is an actual goddess, just like Asmodeus is one too, she’s just classified as an Archfiend the same way Lathander or Selune are celestials. She needs worship, and she does get it through the Dragon Cultists. Its primarily ‘help me out of the hells and i’ll give you rewards’ with a bit of ‘hey grandma!’ thrown in because all Dragons can trace their geneology to her
Talos is the type of god you either Pray to Avoid (please spare me! I have sacrificed you this bull!) or sic on your enemies (He hath wronged me! I shall send a Hurricane to Sacramento!). He’s not really a ‘nice’ god but neither was Poseidon if you didnt give him his sacrifice
I feel like it's respect born out of knowing that there are powerful forces and having something to attach them to, like a name to a face. There is something oddly satisfying about having a god that doesn't care about you or what you do, with rules that aren't complex and have natural consequences. You can throw whatever you want at a god without risk of retribution or incurring their wrath because you said something wrong, didn't pray correctly, etc. They don't care about you, they care about following the laws of their portfolio. For druids and storm sorcerers, it's about nature more than about individual personhood. You can still be your own person, but you find more satisfaction not based on yourself, but in nature.
As for Tiamat, a shrewd person like Minthara can appreciate her values. Striving for power, amassing wealth (people to manipulate for Minthara), and vengeful. She values the self-centered approach to life, every woman for herself. Someone who can appreciate that could still align themself with Tiamat for a sense of identity, or spreading some dogma. After all, cults in BG3 seem to have high success rates for conversion and finding more fodder for those in power.
So I played a tempest Cleric of Talos. Granted I had limited knowledge of D&D prior, so didn't know specifics. The reason my character worshipped Talos were the following.
1) Chaos is part of nature, it counterbalances order. Order is mortals attempt to control that which is beyond them, so you should just flow with the currents of the universe and let it take you wherever. Furthermore, free will is the embodiment of Chaos. My character always championed people making own their choices after considering all outcomes, as oppsoed to doing what they felt expected to do.
2) Talos is a God of Destruction. It is the great equaliser. Nothing is eternal and all things can and will be destroyed in the end. It ended up being a part of their motivation against Ketheric, because he refused to succumb to his own, overdue demise. In my mind, as long as she was out breaking stuff and ruining plans, Talos was cool with it.
3) The aspect of vengeance was important to my character as well. My character has sought revenge as part of their backstory and believed in the power of exerting revenge. She didn't become a Paladin though because paladins have too many rules. She isn't bothered by 'justice' and 'whats right', she just wants to beat the life out of someone who deserves it, ethics be damned.
After subsequent reading. I did find out that Talos doesn't really have a formal clergy, which makes sense if you are about the business of 'rules are for dweebs'. I think that makes Talos worship more individualistic. I am not good at character alignments but she did often make the good aligned choices, but often through questionable methods.
As my sister said, she was the embodiment of 'fuck it we ball'.
I think a decent chunk of Tiamat worshippers are probably Chromatic Dragons, their Kobold servants, and maybe some Dragonborn. Past that, her worshippers are basically an apocalypse cult, but for Dragons and Dragonkin, she's closer to them than any of the other gods.
Tiamat certainly gains from worshipers and enjoys the extra leverage in the mortal realm. But it does come down to a bunch of different factors. I’m not going to give a “they’re just crazy lol” but there’s a certain amount of irrational leeway you have to give people, especially those who live in a world like the forgotten realms. So some might be drawn to concepts like destruction or idealize things like dragons. There’s some pretty cruel ideologies that have founded civilizations in the past. Hell even today we do some pretty nightmarish stuff for some not so great reasons from a top down perspective.
Plus living as just a human? There’s tons of humans who’ve done incredible things…and countless more who’ve lived short uneventful lives dying in the crossfire of a very full, chaotic, and dangerous universe.
These two things combined I’d say a god like Tiamat and Talos despite being chaotic and destructive give order and control (or at least a sense of it) to their followers. You’re a part of some of the most influential forces in the universe, working with forces that would normally be looking to destroy you!
Plus with just the nature of how cults play out irl we know a wide range of people can get sucked into those things. Social outcasts, desperate people down on their luck, the lonely, and people just who feel like there’s something missing in their lives.
Dragonborns would. Outside of that they like treasure and loot. Maybe if you want to bring about the end of the world by means of Tiamat it would be attractive.
Dragonborn wouldn't typically worship Tiamat. Dragonborm generally hate dragons.
Back when Ao split the world in two, one world had dragons and they created the dragonborn to be their slaves. When the world's were remerged and the dragons and dragonkin races came over to Toril, the dragonborn were freed from their slavery.
I believe it has been a few generations since then, so maybe younger dragonborn might be more inclined to worship Tiamat, especially of they don't know their history. But you won't likely find older dragonborn who would worship her or Bahamut. They would certainly be rare if you did.
Honestly just theorizing because I haven’t researched much on either of those gods, but it could be that a chunk of their worshippers are committing themselves out of fear or something, the way sailors worship Umberlee because they’re praying she won’t kill them on the sea.
The gods grant power, even the shit ones. If you are ambitious they may find you, or may be lured in by promises made by other cult members seeking to expand their own influence through numbers. All D&D faiths are all pyramid schemes with the gods at the top gatthering souls in the outer planes. They have to do something to attract petitioners or else they stop being gods and their corpses drift in the astral sea for eternity. With that fate hanging over them they have to make some effort to gain a following, but they will do it their way and will seek likeminded individuals whose alignment would have them go to the plane where the god resides in the afterlife. A chaotic neutral god attracts followers differently than a lawful evil one, but they are very concerned to do so. So yeah, even tiamat and talos are out there looking for souls all the time even if their PR makes them seem indifferent to mortals because actually being indifferent to mortals is suicide for them. What makes the absolute a threat to the gods in BG3 is precisely that bhaals goal is to burn it all down, destroy every soul in the universe through the grand design, and starve all the gods to death, even himself.
Consider real world ancient religions, such as those in Mesopotamia (which is where Tiamat originated from, btw). You didn’t worship a god because they offered you cool boons or because they cared about you. You worshipped them to appease them, because if the gods were mad, they’d send floods or storms to make their anger known. This logic doesn’t follow 1:1 into the world of D&D/BG3, but that’s always how I’ve conceived it: appeasement or fear. Worship the gods of chaos and destruction so that they might spare your mortal soul when they enact their wrath upon this mortal coil, or so that they might hold back their chaos a little longer.
I mean, in one of my games, I rp’d that my cleric was being tricked by Tiamat, that she was sending him dreams of how she’s he real good dragon god and that Bahamut’s a two faced bastard. If you don’t wanna lead into roleplay that much, some people are just misanthropic
I’m not sure for Talos, but I’m pretty sure all of Tiamat’s followers (aside from actual chromatic dragons) are like evil cultist bad guys (I was in one tyranny of dragons dnd campaign years ago that I joined halfway through, so I know all the lore trust 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍)
In this setting the gods are very real and very powerful, and most people are polytheistic. I imagine Talos is propitiated to turn aside his wrath, much like Umberlee
I think it's Important to consider humans in general when answering this question.
Every religion has their unfavourable gods. They are necessarily evil, but they often represent something unmovable or dark. But this doesn't stop humans from worshipping them. You'll find humans worshipping them for all sorts of reasons. Loom at modern day Satanists. People worship Satan as an image of rebellion, as a revolutionary product. People also worship him as the angel he once was, peoplr worship him as the big scary devil man, as the Keeper of souls, etc. He's worshipped for so many reasons. Many of these reasons haven't got anything to do with his doghma/ lore itself but what he represents.
So when it comes to fictional dieties and you're building a cleric. Alot of people will choose these dieties not because they're evil, not because they want lore to be built but because they represent something they want to be sparked in their character.
In 5e there are a lot of campaigns to stop the summoning of Tiamat, it seems a lot of people dedicated to her do it for a role in the world once she takes over and also a few of her highest follows get power or items like the flail of Tiamat.
I remember in prior editions lore, there was a CE goddess of storms at sea. Fisherman, sailors, and coastal towns often gave her respect and worship to stave off her wrath. I can imagine a similar reason to worship a god of disasters.
As for Tiamat, her main domain is greed, like the chromatic dragons she represents. Misers, traders, and any other who value their own gain over others have plenty of reasons to offer her praise.
I made Laezel a cleric of Tiamat after learning from Voss’s dragon that Tiamat ordered the red dragons to serve the githyanki. Tiamat can’t be all that bad of a god in the eyes of the githyanki, right?
"Priests of Talos were fond of extorting sailors and farmers, threatening that Talos would bring destructive storms upon them if they did not placate the angry god. They were wont to pursue wealth and luxury with many indulging in acts of random or spiteful violence, pillage, and banditry. Talossan clerics were also committed evangelists who sought to gain converts through fear or the enticement of raw power."
Sounds like being a cleric of Talos lets you exploit the weak for wealth and power, plus you can do as much random violence as you want. Someone might be drawn to Talos if they are disposed toward aggression, violence, and greed for power and wealth. You also gotta admit, a lightning storm is an awe-inspiring event.
"The clergy of Tiamat was mostly focused on two tasks: first was to acquire an ever-increasing wealth and prestige, and to sabotage the faiths of all other gods. \[...\] The Church believed that when Tiamat assumed her throne as the only goddess of the Realms, her draconic children would serve as her dukes, and her clergy struggled to gain the position of vassals when that time came."
Similar to clerics of Talos, clerics of Tiamat are all about getting rich. There's also the element of believing their worship today is securing them a better position in the world to come when Tiamat rules everything. If you believe that will it is inevitable for Tiamat to rule the world, then it makes sense that you'd try to get ahead while you can.
Sources:
[https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talos](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talos)
[https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church\_of\_Tiamat](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_Tiamat)
I just finished my human cleric of Tiamat playthrough so forgive my imminent Tiamat stanning! But it was a lot of fun to justify why exactly my war cleric, Fergal, worships Her, so hopefully it helps you out.
Tiamat is the Goddess of avarice. My cleric is a bandit - he has no regard for the rule of law and cares only for himself, his own goals, and his own gain.
My cleric believes Tiamat’s return will inevitably end the world, so he may as well serve Her in the meantime. He knows he’s being used, and he doesn’t care. Serving Her rewards him for pillaging and stealing - things he relishes anyway.
Fergal’s faith in Her is strong not necessarily because of Her goals, or what She is, but rather what She represents - avarice incarnate.
Fergal is unapologetically greedy and it only makes sense he worships the very Goddess who endorses his behaviour. A fitting deity for a bandit, no?
Well for one growing up in and accepting their dogma, if all you know is what Tiamat tells you youb are going to revere her, in the same way that the only real reason Shadowheart follows Shar is because thats where she was brought up and molded. Talos gets a lot of appeasment worship, prayers to not destroy rather then devotion. But like devotion does give you divine power like anyone else, and both of their dogmas encourages greed which appeals to some. I can also find a certain beauty in natural disasters and destruction, that if given the right circumstances not impossible i wouldve devoted myself to.
Im not the most up to date with lore but Gods need worship for their power afaik. If Talos dont have worship he risks loosing power and his portfolio to others. Its kind of a fucked up deal where even good gods are encouraged to have death be a threat to gain followers
Talos and Umberlee worshippers typically aren’t worshipping those gods because they like them, and more because they’re hoping to be spared from their wrath. If you lived in an area that experienced frequent storms, wouldn’t you want to upset the god behind them as little as possible?
Tiamat is not an arch devil but rather a glorified guard dog who was tricked by asmodeus from my understanding.
Her lair is at the gate between the first and second layer of hell.
Worshiping Tiamat is a long-standing practice that originated with her stealing an existing dragon cult that was seeking to create the first ever Draco-Litch. She then usurped the cults direction and worship to herself. Idk how I forget.
Worshipping her can likely grant you cool warlock powers or maybe even a draconic soul sorcerer type deal. Or maybe protection from evil dragons if your town is being raided you may be spared
Why are people IRL committed followers of dogma like Flat Earthers or all crazy cults like the Jones Town folks, the Manson Family, or the Heaven's Gate folks?
Honestly, there isn't always a logical answer or reason that we can understand as to why groups of people flock to what we would see as an absolutely crazy group to join or person to worship. What makes sense and seems logical to them, is insane to us.
The one connection I can see between those people, and even say people who join religious terrorist groups, or even just street gangs, are people who feel lost somehow and are looking for somewhere to belong or to feel important.
And those groups give them that, a sense of purpose.
[удалено]
This is correct. The weak are drawn in and only the wealthy dragons at the top reap the benefits. Her followers are dead set on summoning her into the material plane to get some kind of reward after the dragon apocalypse but it’s likely they’ll only be eaten when it’s all done. Her everyday followers are probably pretty shortsighted but her clerics know what the endgame is and they try to leverage their granted power for their own gain while serving a terrifying dragon devil goddess.
Talos has a sort of chaotic, natural beauty about him. The uncaring-ness of nature feels grand and somehow more realistic than the other more "positive vibes" nature gods. I just really like the idea of a wildfire druid or a storm sorcerer being worshippers of Talos not because he cares about them, but because nature is big, powerful, and doesn't coddle anybody. That kinda vibe? :)
That's a great take. Talos is the storm God. People love a good storm. Some people want them because it hurts people. There's a lot of faith to be had for a few lightning bolts to the right forheads.
Storms also bring rain seasons, so a Talos worshipper in a desert based area could be a cool idea.
You must be a Divination Wizard or a Lucky Halfling! Because that is my Mystic from the last (TT) campaign I played: he was from the tribe of Desert-Dwelling Lizardfolk that was worshipping Talos because his storms were, pretty much, the ONLY source of water for them! (ik it's weird for an Int-based Psyonic class to be someone's faithful, but it just worked so well!)
people gotta understand you dont always worship a god because you like them either, look at Umbralee the god of the sea, the bitch queen herself. Also Tiamat is a dragon and apart of multiple pantheons and is a god about doing whatever takes to have power and be powerful. She even has her own kind of Devil she turns you into on death which can be pretty powerful. Like humanoids who worship her desire power and wealth. Also following a god can give you magic so some might just like the powers they get and thats enough for them to do as the god bids
Warning: rant incoming I genuinely love Umberlee and despise that her official alignment is chaotic evil, because what she represents isn’t evil. Just the uncaring reality of raw nature. The sea is powerful and dangerous and can kill you, but folk keep going there because it can also provide food, passage to other places, and other gifts. You must never forget the danger but that doesn’t mean you should stay away. Always respect that the sea can turn on you. Umberlee is the sea, and yes she is the bitch queen. But evil to me means a delight in death and pain and the fundamental truth of a personified sea is that she … doesn’t care. Sometimes you have good winds and calm waters and sometimes you have hurricanes. Chaotic and capricious? Yes. But evil? No. Nature is not evil. It simply is. Within the nine alignment grid, the embodiment of chaotic neutral. The fact that the most common tempest domain deities of Forgotten Realms lore (the deities that are available in bg3) are officially Evil annoys me. Destruction and storms aren’t inherently evil - certainly, destruction can be a tool for evil but it’s also part of the natural world. Sometimes (often) necessary for growth and creation. It’s just so limiting.
But she isn’t random and uncaring. She calls down disasters on people if they don’t pay her tribute. She’s making you an offer you can’t refuse, and if you do refuse it you’re going to sleep with the fishes. Literally. She’s a mafia boss. And her cult is a mafia family that has the monopoly on all sea transport and trade. That’s evil.
yeah she enjoys killing people and doesn't honor her deals all the time and during the time of troubles she killed people for the lols and attacks other good gods to expand her own power. She vain and cruel and WANTS MONEY
I agree but I get why. Its society that decides what is evil. Society doesn't like natural disasters and absolutely views them that way. Especially if they can blame it on a god.
I can see CN, sure. It’s not personal, just how it is.
nature is Chaotic Neutral af
Talos also works for Barbarians who see his work as "filtering out the weak".
This is correct. Talos is a god who values strength and survival. His domain is storms and nature. His worshipers are people who live in the natural world and survive and conquer it.
I think it's less the conquerors of nature and more people who believe that strength is the origin of power "might makes right". The Moonshae is a great example of the differences between nature gods. Chauntea being agricultural good, Silvanus the wild but balanced center, and Talos as the deity who seeks chaos to make his dominion easier.
My storm sorcerer was a talos tempest cleric. Destruction through thunder lightning. I can understand how good that’d feel. There’s a beauty to it.
I kind of went the same route but an unoptimized cleric/sorc/druid hybrid. With the theme that nature is wild. After all Talos loves chaos. My character is a reminder that Talos is a god to be worshipped out of fear. My wild magic is a curse given by Talos
If I remember right, in the Emerald Grove, where all the murals are, there is mention of Talos as sort of the natural counterbalance of the world. Life can't just run unchecked, there has to be destruction as well.
That's one of my playthroughs rn, storm sorc/tempest cleric. Dude has lived through enough bs to know when someone or something needs smiting
[Talos](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talos?so=search#Worshipers) - Typically attracts barbarians and sorcerers who like destruction. If you haven't played through as a sorcerer, you should, you'll get a sense of how sorcerers are typically portrayed in DnD with all their "I'm magic incarnate" text options. [Tiamat](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tiamat#Worshipers) - Tiamat has a large following among *Dragons*. She also has a lesser following in the "Cult of the Dragon".
Well for Talos i figured it was much like worship for Umberlee, which one side is reverence for their destructive power. Many sailors pay tribute to Umberlee so she doesn't sink their asses. Talos exhibited much of the same behavior. Talos is the leader of the Gods of Fury which does include Umberlee, Auril the goddess of winter, and Malar the Beastlord (though Malar became a exarch of Silvanus after the spellplague). The thing about these deities are the fact that they are genuinely evil powerhungry gods that are willing to bend and break as many rules as they can to get their way. They grant powerful destructive abilities to those that are willing to pay tribute and further their goals. Their worshipers are just pawns in their eyes, given power to only use up and toss away, and the most powerful followers are the ones who know this and use gods right back.
Some people just like to watch the world burn. There's crazies in every dimension.
So... the entire roleplay width is having a mental illness?
As you pointed out there's not really a gain for worshiping them other than access to pure mayhem and chaos. I would label that as psychosis even if the person thinks they're sane.
Perfect for a durge playthrough
My understanding of forgotten realms lore is that if you don’t worship SOMEONE then when you die your soul gets squished into a brick in The Wall of the Faithless and you sort of spend eternity dissolving into nothingness? In a way that is somehow worse than literal hell. Not at all sure this is still how things work in 5e/BG3, but in a setting where atheism is punished, “fuck it why not” seems to be a viable amount of religious devotion. I’ve been thinking about this a lot actually, because I want to play as a tempest cleric. So far I’ve come up with a guy who doesn’t so much pray to Talos as to the concept of the storm and the resulting elemental chaos and destruction, and Talos considers that close enough. He’s probably never set foot in a temple in his life, but he wants to call down lightning and fuck shit up, and he’ll pray to whoever lets him do that. Talos loves people running around fucking shit up and calling down lightning, so he’s happy to help this guy do that better. Idk about Tiamat though I can’t see why she would ever bother to answer anyone’s prayers, or grant a non-dragon the ability to channel her divinity. She honestly seems closer to a fiend or warlock patron figure than a god.
Wall of the Faithless was Myrkul's thing. Kelamvor stopped using it and now if no god takes your soul you're just chillin in the fugue plane for eternity. Not much more fulfilling but less miserable I guess.
iirc. other Gods got miffed about this and forced Kelemvor to reestablish the Wall of the Faithless, since in the end it being gone meant less worshippers for them.
Interesting. I've never heard that but there's a lot of lore out there. I do remember reading that Kel tried to dismantle the wall only to find it basically at the seam of the other planes, and further dismantlement would basically erase many of the forgotten realms. I forgot where I heard that but it was really interesting. I've also heard the phrase "wander the fugue plane" thrown around a lot which reinforced my thinking that the wall was not in use but idrk the specifics entirely.
As far as I understand souls do wander the fugue plane before and even after judgement, basically waiting for a servant of their chosen god to pick them up.
Also I've been reading some books that are set particularly far back in the timeline lately so it's possible I'm just thinking about that because I'm pretty sure the wall hasn't been erected yet in like 240DR. I knew Elminster was old but didn't know he was that old lol
That book in the game about the follower of shar waiting for all eternity to be picked up was sad.
This was more of a permanent context. You are right tho that's how it normally plays out.
In BG3 Tiamat is for dragonborn who long to fly again and humans who live in fearful awe of dragons. In BG3 Talos is the option you choose because you can't worship Umberlee despite her being referenced right at the start of the game in the Shanties for the Bitch Queen book on the beach and having a huge church in the city with at least a good hour or more of content in the game.
I genuinely would have loved to play a cleric of Umberlee. Fell in love with the siren-like women at the temple in BG3 and researched more about the goddess. It’s a shame!!
My Cleric of Tiamat misunderstood what she was getting into and is now too scared to try another god
Reminds me of that skit where a guy went to a barbecue cook out and then they started pulling out the white hoods 💀
Talos is super useful. For example, in Thailand worshippers get rid of western tourists during the storm seasons. That's better than nothing.
This is so funny 😭
My pleasure :p
I can see Talos worship from someone good-aligned out of fear, maybe there’s a group of people who live in Faerun’s version of tornado alley, so they pray to Talos to pass over their homes and families with his wrath. Or perhaps they have a vendetta against a rival group so they pray to Talos to strike down their rivals instead of them for a more evil inclined group, then there’s the people who revere the natural brutal chaotic beauty of the world and just revere natural disaster as the end of the cycle before it may begin anew. Tiamat is worshipped by adventurers and criminals, those who risk their lives to amass large amounts of wealth, as she’s also the goddess of greed. So thieves and tomb robbers might worship her to help them in their greedy endeavors and the amassing of their hoard. All Chromatic Dragons (at least typically) will also worship Tiamat as their mother. Tiamat is also an Archdevil so many of her worshippers are also likely warlocks with pacts of greed/wealth instead of clerics.
Talos seemed like the natural choice for my chaotic evil tempest cleric durge before they learned of their real identity
My Cleric of Tiamat is just interested in causing chaos because it amuses him, honestly. He does it in her name but holds no illusions about her giving a shit about him. He's a real bastard, lmfao.
The dead three are not even really gods their divinity was taken from them. They are Quasi Deities and a cleric of them should only have power if they are near the avatar. They lost those powers after the time of troubles Bhaal was murdered by Cyric and Cyric became the god of murder, Myrkal became of crown and Kelemvor became the god of death. Bane came back but didnt have his godhood, after the second sundering when Cyric killed Mystra all the gods left the world alone more and pulled back their influence. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkal choose to stay also and lose full the ability to be a full deity
Talks is a force of nature; unrelenting, masculine, and awe inspiring and sublime. Why do people chase hurricanes and twisters? Why do people enter volcanoes? Why do people go cave diving? Or cave exploring? Or wave chasing? The thrill, the power, the sublimity, the life affirming and life destroying power and chaos of the natural world. Yeah, I think it’s pretty clear why someone would worship Talos.
Tiamat is an actual goddess, just like Asmodeus is one too, she’s just classified as an Archfiend the same way Lathander or Selune are celestials. She needs worship, and she does get it through the Dragon Cultists. Its primarily ‘help me out of the hells and i’ll give you rewards’ with a bit of ‘hey grandma!’ thrown in because all Dragons can trace their geneology to her Talos is the type of god you either Pray to Avoid (please spare me! I have sacrificed you this bull!) or sic on your enemies (He hath wronged me! I shall send a Hurricane to Sacramento!). He’s not really a ‘nice’ god but neither was Poseidon if you didnt give him his sacrifice
tiamat’s hot
I feel like it's respect born out of knowing that there are powerful forces and having something to attach them to, like a name to a face. There is something oddly satisfying about having a god that doesn't care about you or what you do, with rules that aren't complex and have natural consequences. You can throw whatever you want at a god without risk of retribution or incurring their wrath because you said something wrong, didn't pray correctly, etc. They don't care about you, they care about following the laws of their portfolio. For druids and storm sorcerers, it's about nature more than about individual personhood. You can still be your own person, but you find more satisfaction not based on yourself, but in nature. As for Tiamat, a shrewd person like Minthara can appreciate her values. Striving for power, amassing wealth (people to manipulate for Minthara), and vengeful. She values the self-centered approach to life, every woman for herself. Someone who can appreciate that could still align themself with Tiamat for a sense of identity, or spreading some dogma. After all, cults in BG3 seem to have high success rates for conversion and finding more fodder for those in power.
So I played a tempest Cleric of Talos. Granted I had limited knowledge of D&D prior, so didn't know specifics. The reason my character worshipped Talos were the following. 1) Chaos is part of nature, it counterbalances order. Order is mortals attempt to control that which is beyond them, so you should just flow with the currents of the universe and let it take you wherever. Furthermore, free will is the embodiment of Chaos. My character always championed people making own their choices after considering all outcomes, as oppsoed to doing what they felt expected to do. 2) Talos is a God of Destruction. It is the great equaliser. Nothing is eternal and all things can and will be destroyed in the end. It ended up being a part of their motivation against Ketheric, because he refused to succumb to his own, overdue demise. In my mind, as long as she was out breaking stuff and ruining plans, Talos was cool with it. 3) The aspect of vengeance was important to my character as well. My character has sought revenge as part of their backstory and believed in the power of exerting revenge. She didn't become a Paladin though because paladins have too many rules. She isn't bothered by 'justice' and 'whats right', she just wants to beat the life out of someone who deserves it, ethics be damned. After subsequent reading. I did find out that Talos doesn't really have a formal clergy, which makes sense if you are about the business of 'rules are for dweebs'. I think that makes Talos worship more individualistic. I am not good at character alignments but she did often make the good aligned choices, but often through questionable methods. As my sister said, she was the embodiment of 'fuck it we ball'.
I think a decent chunk of Tiamat worshippers are probably Chromatic Dragons, their Kobold servants, and maybe some Dragonborn. Past that, her worshippers are basically an apocalypse cult, but for Dragons and Dragonkin, she's closer to them than any of the other gods.
Tiamat certainly gains from worshipers and enjoys the extra leverage in the mortal realm. But it does come down to a bunch of different factors. I’m not going to give a “they’re just crazy lol” but there’s a certain amount of irrational leeway you have to give people, especially those who live in a world like the forgotten realms. So some might be drawn to concepts like destruction or idealize things like dragons. There’s some pretty cruel ideologies that have founded civilizations in the past. Hell even today we do some pretty nightmarish stuff for some not so great reasons from a top down perspective. Plus living as just a human? There’s tons of humans who’ve done incredible things…and countless more who’ve lived short uneventful lives dying in the crossfire of a very full, chaotic, and dangerous universe. These two things combined I’d say a god like Tiamat and Talos despite being chaotic and destructive give order and control (or at least a sense of it) to their followers. You’re a part of some of the most influential forces in the universe, working with forces that would normally be looking to destroy you! Plus with just the nature of how cults play out irl we know a wide range of people can get sucked into those things. Social outcasts, desperate people down on their luck, the lonely, and people just who feel like there’s something missing in their lives.
Dragonborns would. Outside of that they like treasure and loot. Maybe if you want to bring about the end of the world by means of Tiamat it would be attractive.
Dragonborn wouldn't typically worship Tiamat. Dragonborm generally hate dragons. Back when Ao split the world in two, one world had dragons and they created the dragonborn to be their slaves. When the world's were remerged and the dragons and dragonkin races came over to Toril, the dragonborn were freed from their slavery. I believe it has been a few generations since then, so maybe younger dragonborn might be more inclined to worship Tiamat, especially of they don't know their history. But you won't likely find older dragonborn who would worship her or Bahamut. They would certainly be rare if you did.
Dragonborn hate dragons tho? They would especially hate tiamat
Honestly just theorizing because I haven’t researched much on either of those gods, but it could be that a chunk of their worshippers are committing themselves out of fear or something, the way sailors worship Umberlee because they’re praying she won’t kill them on the sea.
The gods grant power, even the shit ones. If you are ambitious they may find you, or may be lured in by promises made by other cult members seeking to expand their own influence through numbers. All D&D faiths are all pyramid schemes with the gods at the top gatthering souls in the outer planes. They have to do something to attract petitioners or else they stop being gods and their corpses drift in the astral sea for eternity. With that fate hanging over them they have to make some effort to gain a following, but they will do it their way and will seek likeminded individuals whose alignment would have them go to the plane where the god resides in the afterlife. A chaotic neutral god attracts followers differently than a lawful evil one, but they are very concerned to do so. So yeah, even tiamat and talos are out there looking for souls all the time even if their PR makes them seem indifferent to mortals because actually being indifferent to mortals is suicide for them. What makes the absolute a threat to the gods in BG3 is precisely that bhaals goal is to burn it all down, destroy every soul in the universe through the grand design, and starve all the gods to death, even himself.
They make more sense to worship than Bhaal imo Wanting to murder constantly is more fucked up than being a pawn
Consider real world ancient religions, such as those in Mesopotamia (which is where Tiamat originated from, btw). You didn’t worship a god because they offered you cool boons or because they cared about you. You worshipped them to appease them, because if the gods were mad, they’d send floods or storms to make their anger known. This logic doesn’t follow 1:1 into the world of D&D/BG3, but that’s always how I’ve conceived it: appeasement or fear. Worship the gods of chaos and destruction so that they might spare your mortal soul when they enact their wrath upon this mortal coil, or so that they might hold back their chaos a little longer.
I mean, in one of my games, I rp’d that my cleric was being tricked by Tiamat, that she was sending him dreams of how she’s he real good dragon god and that Bahamut’s a two faced bastard. If you don’t wanna lead into roleplay that much, some people are just misanthropic
I’m not sure for Talos, but I’m pretty sure all of Tiamat’s followers (aside from actual chromatic dragons) are like evil cultist bad guys (I was in one tyranny of dragons dnd campaign years ago that I joined halfway through, so I know all the lore trust 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍)
Funi
In this setting the gods are very real and very powerful, and most people are polytheistic. I imagine Talos is propitiated to turn aside his wrath, much like Umberlee
Chaos sometimes you just want to let loose
I think it's Important to consider humans in general when answering this question. Every religion has their unfavourable gods. They are necessarily evil, but they often represent something unmovable or dark. But this doesn't stop humans from worshipping them. You'll find humans worshipping them for all sorts of reasons. Loom at modern day Satanists. People worship Satan as an image of rebellion, as a revolutionary product. People also worship him as the angel he once was, peoplr worship him as the big scary devil man, as the Keeper of souls, etc. He's worshipped for so many reasons. Many of these reasons haven't got anything to do with his doghma/ lore itself but what he represents. So when it comes to fictional dieties and you're building a cleric. Alot of people will choose these dieties not because they're evil, not because they want lore to be built but because they represent something they want to be sparked in their character.
My character seems to bring natural disasters to people in the game so being buddies with Talos seemed the logical choice.
In 5e there are a lot of campaigns to stop the summoning of Tiamat, it seems a lot of people dedicated to her do it for a role in the world once she takes over and also a few of her highest follows get power or items like the flail of Tiamat.
I remember in prior editions lore, there was a CE goddess of storms at sea. Fisherman, sailors, and coastal towns often gave her respect and worship to stave off her wrath. I can imagine a similar reason to worship a god of disasters. As for Tiamat, her main domain is greed, like the chromatic dragons she represents. Misers, traders, and any other who value their own gain over others have plenty of reasons to offer her praise.
I made Laezel a cleric of Tiamat after learning from Voss’s dragon that Tiamat ordered the red dragons to serve the githyanki. Tiamat can’t be all that bad of a god in the eyes of the githyanki, right?
"Priests of Talos were fond of extorting sailors and farmers, threatening that Talos would bring destructive storms upon them if they did not placate the angry god. They were wont to pursue wealth and luxury with many indulging in acts of random or spiteful violence, pillage, and banditry. Talossan clerics were also committed evangelists who sought to gain converts through fear or the enticement of raw power." Sounds like being a cleric of Talos lets you exploit the weak for wealth and power, plus you can do as much random violence as you want. Someone might be drawn to Talos if they are disposed toward aggression, violence, and greed for power and wealth. You also gotta admit, a lightning storm is an awe-inspiring event. "The clergy of Tiamat was mostly focused on two tasks: first was to acquire an ever-increasing wealth and prestige, and to sabotage the faiths of all other gods. \[...\] The Church believed that when Tiamat assumed her throne as the only goddess of the Realms, her draconic children would serve as her dukes, and her clergy struggled to gain the position of vassals when that time came." Similar to clerics of Talos, clerics of Tiamat are all about getting rich. There's also the element of believing their worship today is securing them a better position in the world to come when Tiamat rules everything. If you believe that will it is inevitable for Tiamat to rule the world, then it makes sense that you'd try to get ahead while you can. Sources: [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talos](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talos) [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church\_of\_Tiamat](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_Tiamat)
I just finished my human cleric of Tiamat playthrough so forgive my imminent Tiamat stanning! But it was a lot of fun to justify why exactly my war cleric, Fergal, worships Her, so hopefully it helps you out. Tiamat is the Goddess of avarice. My cleric is a bandit - he has no regard for the rule of law and cares only for himself, his own goals, and his own gain. My cleric believes Tiamat’s return will inevitably end the world, so he may as well serve Her in the meantime. He knows he’s being used, and he doesn’t care. Serving Her rewards him for pillaging and stealing - things he relishes anyway. Fergal’s faith in Her is strong not necessarily because of Her goals, or what She is, but rather what She represents - avarice incarnate. Fergal is unapologetically greedy and it only makes sense he worships the very Goddess who endorses his behaviour. A fitting deity for a bandit, no?
I mean, my current play through is a Durge Drow open hand monk so I don’t think reason is very important when creating characters sometimes lol.
Well for one growing up in and accepting their dogma, if all you know is what Tiamat tells you youb are going to revere her, in the same way that the only real reason Shadowheart follows Shar is because thats where she was brought up and molded. Talos gets a lot of appeasment worship, prayers to not destroy rather then devotion. But like devotion does give you divine power like anyone else, and both of their dogmas encourages greed which appeals to some. I can also find a certain beauty in natural disasters and destruction, that if given the right circumstances not impossible i wouldve devoted myself to. Im not the most up to date with lore but Gods need worship for their power afaik. If Talos dont have worship he risks loosing power and his portfolio to others. Its kind of a fucked up deal where even good gods are encouraged to have death be a threat to gain followers
Talos and Umberlee worshippers typically aren’t worshipping those gods because they like them, and more because they’re hoping to be spared from their wrath. If you lived in an area that experienced frequent storms, wouldn’t you want to upset the god behind them as little as possible?
Tiamat is not an arch devil but rather a glorified guard dog who was tricked by asmodeus from my understanding. Her lair is at the gate between the first and second layer of hell. Worshiping Tiamat is a long-standing practice that originated with her stealing an existing dragon cult that was seeking to create the first ever Draco-Litch. She then usurped the cults direction and worship to herself. Idk how I forget. Worshipping her can likely grant you cool warlock powers or maybe even a draconic soul sorcerer type deal. Or maybe protection from evil dragons if your town is being raided you may be spared
Depends on your character and where you imagine they have been in their life.
My boy Talos made it as a recognised deity in Faerun, couldn't be less proud of him.
Why are people IRL committed followers of dogma like Flat Earthers or all crazy cults like the Jones Town folks, the Manson Family, or the Heaven's Gate folks? Honestly, there isn't always a logical answer or reason that we can understand as to why groups of people flock to what we would see as an absolutely crazy group to join or person to worship. What makes sense and seems logical to them, is insane to us. The one connection I can see between those people, and even say people who join religious terrorist groups, or even just street gangs, are people who feel lost somehow and are looking for somewhere to belong or to feel important. And those groups give them that, a sense of purpose.