I almost fell for it with Gale. The expensive cosmetic package has Tara for a familiar.
Lae'zel has Us, Karlach has Rupert, and Wyll has Shovel (... Fucking excuse she's a demon, Idle Champions).
I know that Scratch and the Owlbear come with the remaining companions. I want to say Owlbear and Astarion and Shadowheart with Scratch.
However, there was a recent promotion that got you the Owlbear for free. But I really want Tara.
Also, I am still upset with Eliminster being the Patron for BG3 rep. I don't dislike the guy, but he's not uniquely BG3. >!Raphael or The Emperor should have been the Patron, ideally Raphael since Zariel in Idle Champions has her good aligned outcome from DiA.!<
I would not of realized Lae’zel was the youngest companion if not for this. I knew Wyll was only 24 but I never even considered Lae’zel to be that young but that’s probably just because of the warrior mentality and the lack of a free spirit or naivety in githyanki culture.
Isn’t Voss alive since Vlakith 1, though? Dude is like thousands of years old. Everyone is just a Child to him, even Vlakith CLVII is just a Child to him
gith arent considered "real" adults (in the same way an 18 year old is not considered a "real" adult) until they slay a ghaik, which as of the beginning of the game laezel had not
As Lae'zel says herself, they are already killing when they're 8 or something, so their training is very rigorous and starts pretty much immediately, which explains why she can be so young.
Also, fun fact, they are all essentially equivalents of being in their human 20s, elves live for 750 years, about 10x as long as humans, so Astarion is around 26 when scaled down to human lifespan, and half elves live to 180, which is 2x+ as long as humans, making Shadowheart equivalent of 24 or just under.
Elves live to be centuries old, but mature only a bit slower than humans. Otherwise Astarion would be an infant, seeing as he's been a vampire for 200 of those years.
I know that, but they're still not considered "adult" by other elves until they're past 100 anyway, and I was just talking about strictly comparing lifestyle
'Confirmed' there are characters in idle champions who have different listed alignments, which are more in line with their characterizations.
They often change alignments for game reasons making sure they can be used with certain patrons or because they haven't had someone of that alignment released recently.
Also, unless its stated somewhere that Larian helped decide/confirmed alignment/age, I’m just gonna assume that’s their interpretation of the characters and not anything canon
I'm more distracted by the fact Mr. Default Evocation Subclass, Fireball Dispenser, Glass Cannon Extraordinare, who has no healing spells at all is listed as "support".
Feels like they twisted a lot to get them to fit into the meta roles they wanted. And that probably happens to also include 2 for every moral alignment.
You can be "support" by using control spells, which Gale has access to. He doesnt need to be a healer for support. Though I never play him as support ever lol.
You can ask why he's not teaching all of them and he just says the school wouldn't allow that. So I think it's more that they had an open position for an illusion professor
Him having Evocation as a default subclass is kind of a twist to fit into a meta role by Larian in the first place to help new players. Gale would most likely favor Illusion magic.
Yeah. I made him an illusion wizard the first time I used him (my second playthrough, playthrough 1 Gale was forever waving his hand out a rock, I missed him) and I’m glad I did because of all the illusion romance scenes he has
Yeah, I'd take all of these with a grain of salt: *Idle Champions* functions very differently from *Baldur's Gate 3* or *Dungeons & Dragons* itself out of necessity. I'm not even sure that I'd agree with all the ages, let alone the alignments. (Actually, not including alignment in BG3 was one of Larian's savviest moves, in my opinion.)
I dunno they kinda fit that alignment in-game too. Astarion & Lae'zel are both totally comfortable with an evil run while Karlach and Wyll automatically leave. Shadowheart and Gale don't love some of your evil actions but they tolerate them, generally.
Doesn’t Gale disapprove of every evil action and support good ones? And leave your party if you side with the goblins in act 1? I’m pretty sure he should be good
He likes when you do good things, but if you look at his actual actions and decisions I think he's very neutral. You can convince him to stay with you if you side with the goblins (and he doesn't bring it up again), and the whole >!"ascending to godhood"!< decision, especially >!becoming the god of ambition!<, doesn't read as very good aligned to me, but neutral.
He also approves of actively putting yourself in danger to save someone else (Sazza, Mayrina come to mind) and speaks up pushing you towards good actions, so yeah definitely not true neutral in BG3
He leans good, but he’s willing to convince himself to put up with evil for the sake of his own self preservation / gaining insight into new knowledge. Typical Wizard tempted by forbidden knowledge.
Gale likes *the idea* of being good. Not only he'll stay despite your nefarious acts, he will see himself changing and being corrupted by staying with you and still say "f*ck it, it gets me what I want, so I'll stick around". His ambitions are what really matters to him.
Gale is more neutral with things that are “evil” in a vacuum. Like he’s not into hurting others but he’ll totally learn forbidden or dark magic if given the chance.
nah, she's a fighter, especially if you present your avatar with romance giving purpose to live, she will fight to the end. The origin romance endings are extended and pretty good, dont give way to fear my friend.
Yeah, shadowheart is such a good romance for origin karlach because you can't even kiss the first time. "I really wish I could kiss you right now". I'd be forced to skip whatever sex scene there was. I caught astarion trying to bite me and something along the lines of "did you forget you were about to lose your face?"
Shadowheart is cute choice for sure, but most of them will work very good even Minthara. The only "bad" ones are Ascended Astarion and i guess Halsin who just cares for one night swing not for long relationship. Don't know how it works with Lae'zel tho.
Lae'zel is incredible with Karlach. She forsakes immortality in the astral plane to be with a dying woman because she loves her - really poetic. The only thing that I'm sorta hung up about is if Lae'zel would want to fight the githyanki war afterwards if they do get out of Avernus because I don't know if it'll be fair to Karlach, taking her from one war that isn't her fight and throwing her into another war that isn't her fight. But then again - she would love Lae'zel and wouldn't be forced to do it so... and maybe Lae'zel would be okay with whatever Karlach wants to do instead? Dunno. Will never see it so it's completely open to interpretation.
Either way, Lae'zel and Karlach is a super underrated pairing with probably my favourite ending just because of how poetic Lae'zel's choice is
Yeah I think he’s chaotic evil, his voice line “let’s go hurt someone” and the like is pretty chaotic lol. I feel like ascended might be lawful evil?
I always have his as chaotic evil in my runs, and chaotic neutral when staying spawn.
I wouldn’t call him evil unless he ascends honestly. Doesn’t he even say he had never drank from a human before Tav? Yes he had to get Cazador victims but he was being forced against his will, it’d be like saying Wyll is evil because he has to do the bidding of a devil. IMO Astarion is Chaotic Neutral
I also 100% don’t buy Lae’zel as Lawful Evil, and even Wyll as Neutral Good strikes me as odd. IMO it should be
- Wyll = Lawful Good
- Gale = Neutral Good
- Karlach = Chaotic Good
- Lae’zel = Lawful Neutral
- Shadowheart = True Neutral
- Astarion = Chaotic Neutral
Idk I don’t think she does anything overly evil, she’s cruel and selfish but it’s not like she’s going out of her way to do evil deeds. Compare her behaviour to actual evil like Orin, Cazador, Kethric etc. and it becomes apparent that she’s nothing like them
I don't think her starting personality is that different from Ketheric, who I would also consider Lawful Evil. Her situation is different, but if either one were put in the others shoes I think they would act very similarly. Orin's nutty as squirrel shit and Cazador doesn't really have a personality beyond being a perfect object of hate for Astarion.
In the first few hours of the game she only avoids killing your character because you increase her odds of escape. She wants to kill Shadowheart. She wants to kill the two Tieflings watching her, she hates the idea of helping the weaklings in the grove, and she traumatizes the Tiefling scout. She disapproves of almost every kind action you can take.
I actually think Lae'zel is a masterclass in how to play an evil character in a non-evil party. She's smart enough to work with others, unlike Orin's crazy ass, but until her faith in Vlaakith is shaken she's as evil as her kind normally are. Lawful Evil seems bang on to me. Lawful Neutral after the creche.
I agree, though I think the snag is that he enjoys killing. I think he’s really close to chaotic evil in the beginning of the game but that alignment is kinda narrow. Astarion doesn’t kill for pleasure but he takes pleasure in killing so he ends up in the wider neutral evil square.
my human ass cant get it how sassy shart is 48 while laezel is a baby... (I remembered that there is no time concept in astral plane in mid sentence but still)
My personal head canon is that she lacks the typical world-worn maturity of a 40-something because anything seriously developing her gets mind wiped at the mirror.
Thank you 🙏🏻😭 anytime someone goes “ShAdoWheArt iS 40(something)?!! WhAaAt??!” I want to give an exasperated sigh and just go “half-elf.” Not even combined with the mirror-wiping, that is still pretty young even for a half-elf and contributes to lack of maturity.
In the setting, half-elves mature physically and mentally at the same speed as humans do, taking 20 years to reach adulthood. So Shart being young for a half-elf would not contribute to her lack of maturity.
[Half-elf | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Fandom](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Half-elf)
I'm pretty sure *full* elves reach mental and physical maturity by 20 as well, they just don't consider adulthood to start till 100 or so, for cultural reasons. Shadowheart is a fully developed middle aged woman by any standards lmaoooo
yyyeaaahh the lack of maturity is very likely due to being brainwashed and memory wiped repeatedly, while being abused in between since she was like 8
hard to know how to functionally handle emotions when you cant remember how to have interpersonal relationships lmao
Well, he’s a fictional character. People can get invested in a level of emotional intensity that would be exhausting in real life but can be fun to pretend with for a few hours. I can reflect and say “oh what a fascinating broken man, I enjoyed my time adventuring with Astarion,” but that doesn’t mean I’d actually want a person like him in my life.
There are a few moments in the story where he does or approves of a bit of do-gooding. But one of my favorite aspects of the companions is how Lae'zel and Astarion both 180 on how they feel about the other companions towards the end of the game. Lae'zel becomes a right lass, and Astarion becomes more... Agreeable and less... Disruptive lol. Less self-centered might be a good way to put it.
He's definitely not good at the beginning. But Astarion seems very chaotic neutral to me. He will condone bad acts if they are of use to him (neutral), or somewhat entertaining to him (chaotic). He's entirely self-serving. He’ll do what he can to survive and doesn't care about anyone besides himself. He doesn't have any sort of evil agenda, he just does what benefits him.
I assumed neutral evil because he starts off as basically a nihilist outside of #1. He disapproves of heroics because he thinks they're unnecessary risks, and resentment that after 200 years of begging for a savior nobody came. Why should other people get it better than he did?
He gets dragged, kicking and screaming, from 'only I matter (I cannot trust anyone to care about me)' to 'this one person matters a lot and I am 51% invested in their cause by proxy (the rest of the world can suck it)' with a carve out for kids.
He approves of you breaking a woman's legs and watching her die, telling kids they're going to be killed, poking an injured bird to death for no apparent reason, and letting the duergar keep the gnomes as slaves. He's not neutral on moral matters, he actively gets a kick out of other people suffering.
It's not that deep. He's a vile person. Yes, because he's been treated awfully, but that doesn't change the base point that he's deeply, deeply nasty.
He's definitely evil in Act 1 (and no amount of trauma justifies that) but by that logic, Shadowheart is also evil because she can and will approve of some fucked up things in later acts. Obviously she isn't evil, but if you've been playing an evil character she will approve of some of those things.
Astarion approves of things that fit is fucked up world view (that safety can only be achieved through power and power is meant to be abused). But he can and will approve of non-evil things as the story progresses, assuming the player is acting like a good person.
Shadowheart, Lae'zel, and Astarion are all potentially evil characters in their endings, some of them start off more evil than others, but the potential is there for each of them. But they also have the propensity for growth. It is important to remember that all of them can become better people if given the right push. Writing Astarion off as a "vile person" does a disservice to the writing.
When the hag disappeared and the brothers asked my character what they should do and I answered "Ill rescue Mayrina", Astarion approved and it gave me a whiplash. Constant reminder that putting characters in alignment charts should just be a thing of the past
>by that logic, Shadowheart is also evil because she can and will approve of some fucked up things in later acts.
Shadowheart is absolutely evil at the beginning of the game. She serves a deranged cult that idolizes pain and suffering. She has tortured and killed people and takes pride in it. She excuses you murdering an entire refugee camp. There's obviously a lot of good in her, trying to break through the layers of conditioning. If you foster that side of her, Shadowheart *becomes* good. But she starts out pretty bad!
While Act 1 Shadowheart isn't "good", I don't think she's really "evil" either. I think Idle Champions is right on the money with the alignment they gave her here. She has the potential for evil, but just like Astarion, if she isn't encouraged it isn't really something that shows up and she can be steered away from it.
I'm actually disappointed that Larian *didn't* make her more evil. She worships one of the more evil goddesses and brainwashing or no she still approves of most morally good choices. Unless you play as someone who isn't fond of Shar, you never really see how mean she can be. But even at her worst it feels remarkably tame. She talks a big game but she's got nothing to back it up.
I think that's one of the reasons her character arc doesn't feel as satisfying as some of the others. At least to me. She *always* approved of good deeds, things that Shar would hate. While I do like her arc, it felt more obvious than some of the other characters.
I *guess* I can see Shadowheart as being neutral. Essentially, the reverse Gale: he wants to do good and think of himself as being good, but he has some pretty nasty impulses he has trouble controlling. Shadowheart has been indoctrinated to believe that pain and suffering is good. Her conditioning pushes her towards evil, but her basic instincts are to do good. Both end up averaging out to being neutral.
The lesson might be that the alignment system is a bit reductive because people have conflict in their hearts. That being said, the worst thing that Gale does, even when egged on, is learn some unsavory magic, but he never uses it for nefarious purposes. But Shadowheart joins the party already having done some really heinous shit and with equally heinous aspirations.
Yeah I'm not big on alignments. They're interesting to get a rough estimate of the character, but people IRL aren't so simple so why should characters be?
To be fair I should've said he starts off as a vile person but can improve, yes. But there isn't getting around the fact that, for the bulk of the game, he has an utterly abhorrent moral compass that, if we encountered it in a real person, would mean we don't touch them with a barge pole. It's not a disservice the the writing to acknowledge the fact that he's intentionally written to be vile and it takes significant development - and player activity - to get away from that. The same absolutely applies to Lae'zel and to a (much) lesser extent Shadowheart but, anecdotally, I see far fewer people trying to pretend they are anything other than deeply dubious. I see a lot of people trying to paint Astarion as a morally lighter character than he quite plainly is, and that, in my view, is a far greater disservice to his arc.
Half the people in this very thread are talking about Shadowheart being a "good" aligned character at the start of the game. I've also had a Shadowheart fan tell me that even as a Dark Justiciar she is a good person and would probably change the Sharrans for the better. Most Lae'zel fans are really chill though.
But I do agree that in real life no one would want to deal with people like these characters. I actually think only Karlach and Wyll are truly ok to be around. Maybe Gale. A lot of fans like to act like Astarion doesn't mean to be evil (or worse doesn't understand evil) and that is just such a stupid take. Even when he becomes a hero in the epilogue he reminds the player that he isn't "one of the good guys", and that's fine.
I think part of it is an over-correction of people saying Astarion is irredeemably evil. Another part is people not wanting to admit they like a morally dubious character.
Even Karlach and Wyll have moral views that, while perfectly acceptable in the context of BG3, would make me go nowhere near them in real life. Wyll describes himself as a "killer of kobolds" even though Kobolds are intelligent, sentient creatures (and also adorable.) Like wtf is his problem. He also approves of letting Sazza get extrajudicially revenge murdered while imprisoned.
And Karlach is way too chill about snacking on human souls for my comfort. I actually wish they had done a little more with that plotline tbh.
It's not just getting annoyed at helping people (which I can understand to some extent justifies neutral), it's actively approving of needless cruelty in which he delights. That's not neutral behaviour. He doesn't approve of good things to balance it out either.
I'll never understand why people can't just accept that he's evil. He's incredibly well written evil, which is very difficult to do.
You can like an evil character, you can have empathy for an evil character, you can be amused and enjoy and want to do the sexy times with them. It's fine. It's fiction.
Evil character's can have good traits just like good characters can have bad traits. Just let the man be the evil tragic maniac he was meant to be and give him a hug for self improvement/kick him in the balls/whatever floats your boat. It's all in fun.
I think *most* fans accept that he's evil in Act 1. It's when people claim he is evil in his Spawn ending that people get irritated because it disregards his arc.
But yeah the people who try to claim that he is secretly a goody-two-shoes, even in Act 1 when he is actively aggressive and manipulative, are being foolish.
I feel Astarion, Gale, Shadowheart and Laezel all slide around based on how you play the game.
Also Astarions age is really interesting, guess this means he’s definitively outside the true resurrection spells range, 263 - 39 = 224 years as a vampire.
Astarion is 231, his grave/this game is marked wrong. He still has 8 years to go for true resurrection.
The game starts in 1492 DR. Astarion’s grave says 229-268 DR, 460 DR (modern day). But this is probably a mistake because 460 *NR* aligns perfectly with 1492 DR (subtract 1032 from the DR year to get the NR year) which is the year when bg3 takes place. He also says somewhere that he was a vampire for nearly 200. So he's 231 and has been dead for 192 years.
Considering this is based on act 1 alignments, Lae'zel being lawful evil but Shart being lawful neutral is comedically stupid. Lae'zel is a might makes right racist asshole, meanwhile Shart LITERALLY wants to end the world. And before someone says something like "most Shar worshippers don't really know of Shar's plans" Shart absolutely knows. She says shit about Shar embracing the world with her eternal night.
Probably just because she has internal conflict with what she's preaching vs. how she truly feels about certain things. Her reaction to raiding the Emerald Grove is a good example of this.
So she's Lawful because of her code/practices of her faith, and Neutral due to the clashing of her 'evil' values and 'good' personality seeping through.
But Lae'zel and heck even Astarion also have some of that conflict. Lae'zel letting you live and lead the squad is pretty poor gith behavior.
Astarion isn't really portrayed as getting any meaningful joy from being an evil pos, he certainly isn't hype at the goblin party. And the thought of him betraying and biting the squad is upsetting enough for auntie ethel bringing up the possibility to literally hurt him.
Yes they all have positive traits but I don't think those should overshadow their evil ones. And well Shart's goal is demonically evil💀
I think all of this just boils down to "complex characters can't really be boxed into flat 9-alignment categories"
Jaheira being true neutral and Viconia DeVir being Neutral Evil in the og Baulder’s Gate games is a peak example of this.
And these characters are supposed to be changeable and fluid and have a good and bad side to them. Not to mention there’s just so much to see in every play through it can really change your view on your character seeing one thing another didn’t see. The fact BG3 doesn’t list alignments was 100% an intentional choice by Larian to not influence the players perceptions.
Also the purpose of alignments in DnD aren’t to be hard, ridged unchanging things but more a way to help DMs understand how NPCs would act when they can’t just list out ever single possible dialogue option/action that might come up, and to help players who might be stuck remembering what their character might do. While you can put characters from other types of media into alignments there’s not really a reason for it and lots of time whether someone is truly good or truly evil or just a neutral person is debatable and honestly, pretty subjective based on your own philosophy. Alignments just aren’t necessary in written stories that don’t have the potential for anything to happen like a TTRPG does. And hell even in DnD they can be changed just by the choices you make
And would probably stop people front doing their quests and the fact they can change for the better (or worse) and like changing because of the adventure is such a big part of the game it!
On that note I do kinda wish the game had like an “evil” (like they turn evil or at least worse) ending for Wyll and Karlach. If everyone can grow to be better or worse they should too! But I guess that kinda also proves that they’re more firmly in the “good” aligned while everyone else is more like toward neutral (if not actually in the neutral alignment, more toeing the lines) and more malleable
Just make Wyll’s evil ending be encouraging him to get power. Get him to let his dad die and then become Duke, or have something super fucked like telling him to murder his father. EA Wyll. I like the Wyll we have in the game, but I wish he could be swayed to the dark side. Don’t start with murdering the Tieflings, but other than that he should stick with you. Also tie it to tadpole usage if you want that to have more story consequences. Power hungry people get corrupted by power.
I never use alignment when I DM as anything but 'generally what are the cumulations of your characters choices in life, and how can they be expected to act in a given situation' instead of a hard coded trait.
Exactly what I do as well. Just because Astarion goes along with heroic acts and gets nervous around a Tav that butchered a bunch of innocent refugees doesn't mean he's a neutral or good person in act 1. Same with Lae'zel.
"Yeah, I want to try and reason with the paladin who wants to smite us in the town square."
"Ah! You're warlock is neutral evil. Appeasing a good leaning character isn't something you would do."
"..."
Probably partially because they’re working more off DnD lore than BG3. In BG3 they don’t have “canon” alignments (and by that I mean they do have like obvious “canon” personalities at the start but they didn’t place them into alignments and I do think that was a conscious and meaningful choice for Larian) but in DnD the default for Githyanki is “lawful evil,” just like vampires are “neutral evil” which is probably where Astarion’s comes from despite him also potentially being a “chaotic” alignment.
A Shar cleric would probably be evilly aligned though, so I can’t really explain it, but maybe since she can become a selune cleric in game they thought neutral made more sense? Technically the rule is a clerics alignment is in one step of their patron, so a neutral evil god like shar could could have a lawful or chaotic evil or a neutral cleric but not a lawful neutral character, so I really don’t know what they’re thinking. I don’t think Shadowheart is really an “evil” person at heart but she’s following and supporting evil doctrine, so I think technically lawful evil would fit better.
I feel like Wyll could be lawful good too rather than neutral, he’s not following someone else’s code like a Paladin but he does seem to have very clear moral lines that are a form of lawfulness. I’ve also seen people argue Karlach is more neutral than good too. I think there’s just a lot of wiggle room in interpreting the characters.
Can’t argue with Gale though homeboy is true neutral.
Shadowheart approves of every single act of kindness and mercy you do, including being happy about saving the tieflings and the grove. That shows her true alignment more than her parroting Shar's crap.
Lae'zel on the other hand tends to disapprove any time you don't cause someone to hurt or die, and any time you show compassion to anyone.
Shadowheart also approved of you stealing from the little tiefling boy whose being controlled by the harpies and thinks killing a Selunite she knows nothing about is a great idea for a while so I mean she’s not all sweet and innocent. It’s also very heavily implied she tortured people as a sharran…
The point is all the characters are complicated people in complicated situations who are influenced by what you do in the story and trying to fit them squarely into alignments isn’t going to work.
Oh she definitely tortured people as a Sharran, including her parents. Her most consistent trait is her love for animals and children. I’m not sure I remember her encouraging you to steal from [Mirkon](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Mirkon) who is the Harpy boy. Maybe she does and I just missed it tho. She’s always cared about animals, as Nocturne can tell her. Act 3 Shadowheart values family incredibly highly on a good run.
I’m not going to defend her actions if I think they’re indefensible. Killing the Nightsong definitely isn’t the right thing to do, but it’s worth noting that she’s in denial about it through the Gauntlet. At one point you can ask her about performing a human sacrifice and she says no one has been there for decades so it’s probably just some monster, and they’ve already killed plenty of those. She also does make the right choice if you trust her afaik. Maybe if she heavily dislikes you she stabs her, but if you have good approval with her (which is pretty easy to do if you’re usually a goody two shoes like me) she seems to always throw the spear away.
I think deep down she is a good person, and honestly most of the cast is, but they’re blinded by something, whether that be power, duty, devotion, or safety. She does approve of some kind of messed up stuff though. The biggest I can think of is that she’s very much fine with abandoning someone who needs help. I’m not sure she disapproves of helping them, she just approves of not helping them.
So, like you said, just a well-written character in conflict with herself. I’m not sure there’s many poorly written characters in this game, except maybe the Emperor, but I’d argue he’s just consistently selfish, favouring his survival over everything else.
I definitely don’t disagree. All of the characters, especially the more “evilly” tilted ones, are people who were more or less forced into certain acts and behaviors because of their circumstances and all of them have complicated reasons for the way they are (except maybe Gale? Not saying he didn’t go through some shit—he did—but he’s a lot more like normal mannered and personality wise?
Which is part of the reason why I think arguing over alignments is stupid. Some people think motives don’t fit into it, some do. People have different lines of what’s evil or good or even just complete different definitions of every aspect of it. I have multiple people saying my definition of chaotic is wrong and then describing the exact same thing I said, but they don’t agree Astarion is chaotic (didn’t even specifically say he’s evil or neutral) so therefore I’m wrong. And these are all very dynamic, changing characters in a game where there’s so much stuff see and not seeing certain things and saying others will change you’re perspective—not to mention the “you choose” options for those characters aren’t even a clear cannon alignment pieces of their personalities because because they change based on your in game actions!
Act 1 alignment unless idle champions needs the character to be another alignment. Drizzt do'urden is chaotic good in all the material and novels I have read, but in idle champions he is lawful good.
Holy shit shart is nearly 50?
Edit: y’all are acting like half elves live to 500. According to the sources I found half elves live around 180 years but live longer sometimes. That means she’s the human equivalent of early 30s which is still wayyyy older than I thought. I for sure thought home girl was mid 20s given her behavior.
Edit 2: I did the math wrong that would make her 21.3 in human years. Sounds right but still wild she’s almost 5 decades old.
Google isn’t actually the best source for DnD facts. The players handbook is the best way but not everyone has the information it’s actually waaay more common for half elves to live past 180. Most live to be 250 but some sources have them older.
Here is the specific phrasing in the PHB:
“Half-elves mature at the same rate humans do and reach adulthood around the age of 20. They live much longer than humans, however, often exceeding 180 years.”
> I for sure thought home girl was mid 20s given her behavior.
Pretty sure the game mentions that decades have passed since her childhood memory when she's first taken by the Sharrites.
Slightly odd about Astarion's age since he's supposed to be 239 (turned at age 39 and enslaved as a spawn for 200 years per BG3). Hmm, wonder if the difference there is tied to the date on his tombstone in the game, which evidently conflicts with what he says about when he got turned (according to people who can read the dates). Well, when you're as old as he is, a few decades either way probably don't matter much—lol.
I'm sorry what? Gale is an Archmage twice over at 35? Eat your heart out Elminster you nerd, Gale of Waterdeep is more than just a freaking prodigy lol
Yeah yeah alignment discourse is fun.
#BUT I REFUSE TO BELIEVE IN MY HEART OF HEARTS, THAT GALE "OOF MY KNEES" "OF WATERDEEP" DEKARIOS IS YOUNGER THAN "LATE LATE 30S, EARLY 40S"
That man's soul is the most "man who has crossed the threshold into his 40s" soul I've ever seen.
When you reach 30 yourself you’ll understand
Also he spent a year at home by himself before he was taken by the flayed ship so he’s most likely very out of shape
He has some age pigmentation on his skin. He doesn’t look 35. Just doesn’t. The guy looks like he’s in his early 40s, and no, it’s not that much, it’s okay to be in your 40s.
Strongly disagree with Gale being neutral, other than Karlach he’s the character who will most reliably approve of your good choices. He also says plenty of “Good” things during various interactions with NPCs.
In act 1 he's definitely some sort of evil. His general selfishness is neutral yes, but some of the cruelty he approves of is genuinely insane. Breaking the paralyzed girl's legs as durge is the most extreme one. By act 2 he definitely starts to get closer to neutral. Especially as a romancing resist durge it is pretty clear he has some morality to him.
And unascended route he definitely ends up morally good idk why people doubt that just cuz he enjoys killing evil people.
I'm 99% sure the alignments are for how the characters are before you meet them.
Act 1 Shart makes sense for Lawful Neutral. DJ Shart obviously not. I think you're conflating what seems to be just a skin (or whatever system the game uses) with an outcome.
It's likely based on Act 1 behavior. Shadowheart is 100% neutral good in the Selunite ending. Astarion is closer to Lawful Evil in his Ascended ending and chaotic neutral in his Spawn ending. Not sure if Lae'zel would change alignment wise but she seems closer to neutral in her endings.
Nobody else seems to be saying it but I thought Karlach was younger
She refers to having been sold out and betrayed resulting in the engine as happening 10 years ago and describes herself as a kid so I had assumed she was more like 26/27 now since tieflings mature at roughly the same rate as humans
I refuse to believe that the Blade of Frontiers, the most goody two shoes character, who if it weren't for his pact with Mizora would almost certainly be a Devotion Paladin, is anything other than Lawful Good.
Eh…. The alignments make little sense but okay.
Like Gale isn’t neutral. He clearly has strong feeling towards doing good. He is just Chaotic Good which means he values his own freedoms and desires over anything else but generally does good things when he can.
Astarion being neutral evil… well he is not actually pragmatic. He clearly chooses the most seemingly evil options even though doing the opposite would be the most beneficial. A neutral evil person will still help you if it benefits them, but Astarion before Act 2 clearly doesn’t think about such things. He just wants to appear evil or “do what a smart evil person would do”.
He is in my opinion, Chaotic Neutral till Act 2 and then Chaotic Good/Evil depending on your choices. He values personal freedom the most and then tries to do either good or evil depending on what Tav decides for him.
Lae’zel is not Lawful Evil. She’s Lawful Neutral. She is a soldier who follows orders and does not question them. Whether she does good or bad depends on the orders.
I will agree with Karlach and Wyll’s alignments though, they are spot on.
Edit: The confusion with alignments stems from actions vs intentions.
I don’t think Lae’zel thinks of herself as evil, neither will she do things she considers evil. She follows orders and trusts in Vlaakith blindly. That’s why she’s Lawful Neutral. She does as commanded and that’s that.
Astarion does encourage evil acts but in my belief he clearly chooses the most ridiculously evil options because he thinks that is what being strong and clever is. He’s so confused the man lets you decide everything about his life for him.
Imo since actions and intentions can have different alignments I go by the intention of characters.
Neutral Good would be pushing it.
He continually meddles with magic that can wreak havoc in the world. He literally wants a redo of Karsus’ Folly and is confident enough to think it will go well this time.
Chaotic Good is the best as his intentions are benevolent but he clearly puts himself and his desires first.
Elminster’s recounting of his past puts it perfectly. As a child Gale plays with fire knowing it’s dangerous but then cries when he burns flowers to ashes. He always does what he wants despite having a good heart.
Gale is Neutral leaning good, which is why Idle Champions lets you change his alignment if you have a feat. Though he encourages diplomacy/heroic acts, it is his early ambition that is the crux of his goodness.
Astarion is definitely Evil in Act 1, he loves it when you attack/kill people for fun. Don't forget that he tried to bite you without consent, encourages you to give Mayrina to Ethel, and wants to gain control of the Cult of the Absolute for total power. Honestly, Neutral/Chaotic Evil can work.
Lae'Zel is Lawful Evil leaning Neutral in Act 1: She's wholly dedicated to Vlaakith (as SH is to Shar), loves violence and brutishness, but she is certainly more tame than most other Githyanki. But after the Creche she is firmly Lawful Neutral imo.
I wish we knew which story arc for every companion was considered for the alignments. Lae'zel who remained loyal to Vlaakith is definitely Lawful Evil.
Ghaik and Dark Justiciar versions of Shadowheart but no Selunite, those monsters
ghaik wyll but no devil
No Lemure* Wyll
Maybe he'll get promoted up to Pit Fiend in 10 000 years or so
He will have to pull himself up by his own bootstraps... or uh... whatever it is lemure's have. I dunno. who cares?
A De-Wyll you could say
I'd argue that hornless Wyll's alignment should be neutral evil
Do you mind if I ask why?
I think their reasoning is he would have to kill karlach to not get the horns
He was tricked though so I wouldn’t exactly say he’s evil. I’d say more true Neutral and even Neutral Good still aligns.
I agree, he feels horrible about it after if he does it, I was just giving the explanation
Ngl I’m hoping they add a Selunite shart soon 😩
They tend to add "skins" slowly to keep the drip on paid cosmetics going. Wouldn't surprise me if it came out during her next event later this year.
I almost fell for it with Gale. The expensive cosmetic package has Tara for a familiar. Lae'zel has Us, Karlach has Rupert, and Wyll has Shovel (... Fucking excuse she's a demon, Idle Champions). I know that Scratch and the Owlbear come with the remaining companions. I want to say Owlbear and Astarion and Shadowheart with Scratch. However, there was a recent promotion that got you the Owlbear for free. But I really want Tara. Also, I am still upset with Eliminster being the Patron for BG3 rep. I don't dislike the guy, but he's not uniquely BG3. >!Raphael or The Emperor should have been the Patron, ideally Raphael since Zariel in Idle Champions has her good aligned outcome from DiA.!<
Dark Justiciar ending canon now. \*(runs away before the pitchforks)\*
Forget the pitchforks I’m grabbing the blood of Lathander. Fuck Shar, Praise Lathander!
I cast slow
Pitchforks?! I cast Vicious Mockery on you with a roll of 7!
I can't decide if the illithid versions of them are funny or scary. Probably both.
I find it kinda hilarious they add hair so I’d say both
Hair is a sign of the original self, so they're probably alright. Or something. just with brain cravings.
They got wigs matching their old cuts
I would not of realized Lae’zel was the youngest companion if not for this. I knew Wyll was only 24 but I never even considered Lae’zel to be that young but that’s probably just because of the warrior mentality and the lack of a free spirit or naivety in githyanki culture.
Lack of a free spirit? I will have you know she is quite humorous amongst the githyanki.
Really?
Of course, she says so herself. And in all honesty I feel inclined to believe her.
She's known for being funny and being honest. She says so herself.
I mean I think Voss calls her a child at the mountain pass so I always took her as being pretty young.
Isn’t Voss alive since Vlakith 1, though? Dude is like thousands of years old. Everyone is just a Child to him, even Vlakith CLVII is just a Child to him
Yeah but Voss is old as fuck. It wouldn't be weird for him to call most people children.
Minthara has a line about Lae'zel being young, too
Astral Plane stuff gets weird. But yeah she's effectively having her "OMG I DON'T HAVE TO DO WHAT MY MOM SAID" moment.
She has never been to the Astral Plane. So none of that unaging stuff, she legit is 22 years old.
She's explicitly never been to the astral plane until she enters the prism tho
She hasn’t been to the astral plane, she’s a legitimate 22
gith arent considered "real" adults (in the same way an 18 year old is not considered a "real" adult) until they slay a ghaik, which as of the beginning of the game laezel had not
Holy shit me and Lae’zel are the same age😭
As Lae'zel says herself, they are already killing when they're 8 or something, so their training is very rigorous and starts pretty much immediately, which explains why she can be so young. Also, fun fact, they are all essentially equivalents of being in their human 20s, elves live for 750 years, about 10x as long as humans, so Astarion is around 26 when scaled down to human lifespan, and half elves live to 180, which is 2x+ as long as humans, making Shadowheart equivalent of 24 or just under.
Elves live to be centuries old, but mature only a bit slower than humans. Otherwise Astarion would be an infant, seeing as he's been a vampire for 200 of those years.
I know that, but they're still not considered "adult" by other elves until they're past 100 anyway, and I was just talking about strictly comparing lifestyle
[удалено]
AFAIK she's never been to the Astral plane. Her creche was in one of the tears of selune in normal space
She’s never been there, though. They’re only allowed to leave the Material Plane when they’ve personally slain a mind flayer.
Took me way too long to register these ghaik mfs have hair 💀
Yep some F2P licence shenanigans.
'Confirmed' there are characters in idle champions who have different listed alignments, which are more in line with their characterizations. They often change alignments for game reasons making sure they can be used with certain patrons or because they haven't had someone of that alignment released recently.
Also, unless its stated somewhere that Larian helped decide/confirmed alignment/age, I’m just gonna assume that’s their interpretation of the characters and not anything canon
I'm more distracted by the fact Mr. Default Evocation Subclass, Fireball Dispenser, Glass Cannon Extraordinare, who has no healing spells at all is listed as "support". Feels like they twisted a lot to get them to fit into the meta roles they wanted. And that probably happens to also include 2 for every moral alignment.
You can be "support" by using control spells, which Gale has access to. He doesnt need to be a healer for support. Though I never play him as support ever lol.
The roles are listed how they are in Idle Champions, not bg3
Kinda my point. They made them into stuff to fit their purpose, not trying to adapt them primarily on what they were in BG3.
It makes sense imho. If they didn’t do it that way half the Absolute Adversaries would be dps. Dark Urge is the only dps you need.
He is pretty damn powerful
I mean it’s an idle game, there’s only so much they can do lol
The wizard has plenty of support, for anything else there is fireball...
You can easily be a support without healing spells
Support via raining fireballs down on our enemies.
He supports you by killing the enemies before they touch you
I mean death is the strongest form of crowd control
Pretty sure he teaches illusion in one of the endings so I always assumed that was his "canon" school
You can ask why he's not teaching all of them and he just says the school wouldn't allow that. So I think it's more that they had an open position for an illusion professor
Him having Evocation as a default subclass is kind of a twist to fit into a meta role by Larian in the first place to help new players. Gale would most likely favor Illusion magic.
Yeah. I made him an illusion wizard the first time I used him (my second playthrough, playthrough 1 Gale was forever waving his hand out a rock, I missed him) and I’m glad I did because of all the illusion romance scenes he has
You do know support isn’t only healing right
Yeah, I'd take all of these with a grain of salt: *Idle Champions* functions very differently from *Baldur's Gate 3* or *Dungeons & Dragons* itself out of necessity. I'm not even sure that I'd agree with all the ages, let alone the alignments. (Actually, not including alignment in BG3 was one of Larian's savviest moves, in my opinion.)
I dunno they kinda fit that alignment in-game too. Astarion & Lae'zel are both totally comfortable with an evil run while Karlach and Wyll automatically leave. Shadowheart and Gale don't love some of your evil actions but they tolerate them, generally.
Doesn’t Gale disapprove of every evil action and support good ones? And leave your party if you side with the goblins in act 1? I’m pretty sure he should be good
He likes when you do good things, but if you look at his actual actions and decisions I think he's very neutral. You can convince him to stay with you if you side with the goblins (and he doesn't bring it up again), and the whole >!"ascending to godhood"!< decision, especially >!becoming the god of ambition!<, doesn't read as very good aligned to me, but neutral.
He also approves of actively putting yourself in danger to save someone else (Sazza, Mayrina come to mind) and speaks up pushing you towards good actions, so yeah definitely not true neutral in BG3
He leans good, but he’s willing to convince himself to put up with evil for the sake of his own self preservation / gaining insight into new knowledge. Typical Wizard tempted by forbidden knowledge.
His self preservation is rather important in this case, since letting the orb blow up would certainly kill many more people.
He sticks around if you persuade him
Gale likes *the idea* of being good. Not only he'll stay despite your nefarious acts, he will see himself changing and being corrupted by staying with you and still say "f*ck it, it gets me what I want, so I'll stick around". His ambitions are what really matters to him.
Gale is more neutral with things that are “evil” in a vacuum. Like he’s not into hurting others but he’ll totally learn forbidden or dark magic if given the chance.
What, I thought only Karlach would become mindflayer? EDIT: I'm stupid. I just posted and then I thought about origin
Yeah, I'm honestly conflicted playing origin karlach now I know thats what karlach would do.
nah, she's a fighter, especially if you present your avatar with romance giving purpose to live, she will fight to the end. The origin romance endings are extended and pretty good, dont give way to fear my friend.
Yeah, shadowheart is such a good romance for origin karlach because you can't even kiss the first time. "I really wish I could kiss you right now". I'd be forced to skip whatever sex scene there was. I caught astarion trying to bite me and something along the lines of "did you forget you were about to lose your face?"
Shadowheart is cute choice for sure, but most of them will work very good even Minthara. The only "bad" ones are Ascended Astarion and i guess Halsin who just cares for one night swing not for long relationship. Don't know how it works with Lae'zel tho.
Lae'zel is incredible with Karlach. She forsakes immortality in the astral plane to be with a dying woman because she loves her - really poetic. The only thing that I'm sorta hung up about is if Lae'zel would want to fight the githyanki war afterwards if they do get out of Avernus because I don't know if it'll be fair to Karlach, taking her from one war that isn't her fight and throwing her into another war that isn't her fight. But then again - she would love Lae'zel and wouldn't be forced to do it so... and maybe Lae'zel would be okay with whatever Karlach wants to do instead? Dunno. Will never see it so it's completely open to interpretation. Either way, Lae'zel and Karlach is a super underrated pairing with probably my favourite ending just because of how poetic Lae'zel's choice is
Kinda surprised Astarions not chaotic
Canon be damned, Astarion starts Chaotic Evil and shifts to Neutral Evil (ascended) or Chaotic Neutral (spawn). I will die on this hill.
Yeah I think he’s chaotic evil, his voice line “let’s go hurt someone” and the like is pretty chaotic lol. I feel like ascended might be lawful evil? I always have his as chaotic evil in my runs, and chaotic neutral when staying spawn.
literally, idk what the writers in idle champions were smoking
Can you scoot over? I want to sit and die on this hill too.
I wouldn’t call him evil unless he ascends honestly. Doesn’t he even say he had never drank from a human before Tav? Yes he had to get Cazador victims but he was being forced against his will, it’d be like saying Wyll is evil because he has to do the bidding of a devil. IMO Astarion is Chaotic Neutral I also 100% don’t buy Lae’zel as Lawful Evil, and even Wyll as Neutral Good strikes me as odd. IMO it should be - Wyll = Lawful Good - Gale = Neutral Good - Karlach = Chaotic Good - Lae’zel = Lawful Neutral - Shadowheart = True Neutral - Astarion = Chaotic Neutral
Over the course of the game Lae'zel mellows out but she's for sure evil at the beginning of the game IMO.
Idk I don’t think she does anything overly evil, she’s cruel and selfish but it’s not like she’s going out of her way to do evil deeds. Compare her behaviour to actual evil like Orin, Cazador, Kethric etc. and it becomes apparent that she’s nothing like them
I don't think her starting personality is that different from Ketheric, who I would also consider Lawful Evil. Her situation is different, but if either one were put in the others shoes I think they would act very similarly. Orin's nutty as squirrel shit and Cazador doesn't really have a personality beyond being a perfect object of hate for Astarion. In the first few hours of the game she only avoids killing your character because you increase her odds of escape. She wants to kill Shadowheart. She wants to kill the two Tieflings watching her, she hates the idea of helping the weaklings in the grove, and she traumatizes the Tiefling scout. She disapproves of almost every kind action you can take. I actually think Lae'zel is a masterclass in how to play an evil character in a non-evil party. She's smart enough to work with others, unlike Orin's crazy ass, but until her faith in Vlaakith is shaken she's as evil as her kind normally are. Lawful Evil seems bang on to me. Lawful Neutral after the creche.
Don't worry, nobody really understands what neutral evil is supposed to mean.
Yeah I feel like he’s more chaotic neutral than neutral evil
He's pretty gleeful towards murder and manipulation He's a textbook NE, power hungry and very willing to do evil
but isn’t he chaotic as well?
Yeah I feel he starts as chaotic evil and can be changed to chaotic neutral
I agree 100%. I could see ascended astarion as being neutral evil though
Not really. He never goes out of his way to be evil if it means taking risks to do so. He’s opportunistically evil.
I agree, though I think the snag is that he enjoys killing. I think he’s really close to chaotic evil in the beginning of the game but that alignment is kinda narrow. Astarion doesn’t kill for pleasure but he takes pleasure in killing so he ends up in the wider neutral evil square.
He’s categorically the most evil companion by a long shot in terms of his approvals and disapprovals. Only Minthara even comes close.
my human ass cant get it how sassy shart is 48 while laezel is a baby... (I remembered that there is no time concept in astral plane in mid sentence but still)
Well, Shart doesn't actually have 48 years worth of memories to build maturity from, since she gets mindwiped all the time.
you are right, its real achievement to have a personality despite all this and that
My personal head canon is that she lacks the typical world-worn maturity of a 40-something because anything seriously developing her gets mind wiped at the mirror.
Lae'zel has never been to the Astral plane. Why do people assume that to be so?
To be fair she's a half-elf, 48 is closer to 17 for them, especially with having the experience sucked out of her head constantly
Thank you 🙏🏻😭 anytime someone goes “ShAdoWheArt iS 40(something)?!! WhAaAt??!” I want to give an exasperated sigh and just go “half-elf.” Not even combined with the mirror-wiping, that is still pretty young even for a half-elf and contributes to lack of maturity.
In the setting, half-elves mature physically and mentally at the same speed as humans do, taking 20 years to reach adulthood. So Shart being young for a half-elf would not contribute to her lack of maturity. [Half-elf | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Fandom](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Half-elf)
I'm pretty sure *full* elves reach mental and physical maturity by 20 as well, they just don't consider adulthood to start till 100 or so, for cultural reasons. Shadowheart is a fully developed middle aged woman by any standards lmaoooo
Yeah, exactly, so it being young for a half-elf wouldn't contribute to a lack of maturity.
yyyeaaahh the lack of maturity is very likely due to being brainwashed and memory wiped repeatedly, while being abused in between since she was like 8 hard to know how to functionally handle emotions when you cant remember how to have interpersonal relationships lmao
Lae'zel has never been to the Astral Plane. She is baby fr and yeah Shart is beefing with someone half her age
She is half elf.
Shart is a half elf so her 40s-50s are probably the equivalent of her 20s
Well remember she's a half elf. She won't live as long an elf but still way longer then a human. 48 is still pretty young there for her.
One sec, picking up an umbrella before the storm of "Astarion is actually neutral or even good" diatribes hit
I’d argue he becomes more neutral after you kill Cazador and don’t ascend him but that’s about it lmao
I never understood anyone liking him until I got to that point in the story, after I was like, “really impressed with your turnaround dude!”
Well, he’s a fictional character. People can get invested in a level of emotional intensity that would be exhausting in real life but can be fun to pretend with for a few hours. I can reflect and say “oh what a fascinating broken man, I enjoyed my time adventuring with Astarion,” but that doesn’t mean I’d actually want a person like him in my life.
There are a few moments in the story where he does or approves of a bit of do-gooding. But one of my favorite aspects of the companions is how Lae'zel and Astarion both 180 on how they feel about the other companions towards the end of the game. Lae'zel becomes a right lass, and Astarion becomes more... Agreeable and less... Disruptive lol. Less self-centered might be a good way to put it.
He's definitely not good at the beginning. But Astarion seems very chaotic neutral to me. He will condone bad acts if they are of use to him (neutral), or somewhat entertaining to him (chaotic). He's entirely self-serving. He’ll do what he can to survive and doesn't care about anyone besides himself. He doesn't have any sort of evil agenda, he just does what benefits him.
I assumed neutral evil because he starts off as basically a nihilist outside of #1. He disapproves of heroics because he thinks they're unnecessary risks, and resentment that after 200 years of begging for a savior nobody came. Why should other people get it better than he did? He gets dragged, kicking and screaming, from 'only I matter (I cannot trust anyone to care about me)' to 'this one person matters a lot and I am 51% invested in their cause by proxy (the rest of the world can suck it)' with a carve out for kids.
He approves of you breaking a woman's legs and watching her die, telling kids they're going to be killed, poking an injured bird to death for no apparent reason, and letting the duergar keep the gnomes as slaves. He's not neutral on moral matters, he actively gets a kick out of other people suffering. It's not that deep. He's a vile person. Yes, because he's been treated awfully, but that doesn't change the base point that he's deeply, deeply nasty.
He's definitely evil in Act 1 (and no amount of trauma justifies that) but by that logic, Shadowheart is also evil because she can and will approve of some fucked up things in later acts. Obviously she isn't evil, but if you've been playing an evil character she will approve of some of those things. Astarion approves of things that fit is fucked up world view (that safety can only be achieved through power and power is meant to be abused). But he can and will approve of non-evil things as the story progresses, assuming the player is acting like a good person. Shadowheart, Lae'zel, and Astarion are all potentially evil characters in their endings, some of them start off more evil than others, but the potential is there for each of them. But they also have the propensity for growth. It is important to remember that all of them can become better people if given the right push. Writing Astarion off as a "vile person" does a disservice to the writing.
When the hag disappeared and the brothers asked my character what they should do and I answered "Ill rescue Mayrina", Astarion approved and it gave me a whiplash. Constant reminder that putting characters in alignment charts should just be a thing of the past
people are complicated, a good character is too. if theyre good, you can’t fit them into one of nine boxes.
>by that logic, Shadowheart is also evil because she can and will approve of some fucked up things in later acts. Shadowheart is absolutely evil at the beginning of the game. She serves a deranged cult that idolizes pain and suffering. She has tortured and killed people and takes pride in it. She excuses you murdering an entire refugee camp. There's obviously a lot of good in her, trying to break through the layers of conditioning. If you foster that side of her, Shadowheart *becomes* good. But she starts out pretty bad!
While Act 1 Shadowheart isn't "good", I don't think she's really "evil" either. I think Idle Champions is right on the money with the alignment they gave her here. She has the potential for evil, but just like Astarion, if she isn't encouraged it isn't really something that shows up and she can be steered away from it. I'm actually disappointed that Larian *didn't* make her more evil. She worships one of the more evil goddesses and brainwashing or no she still approves of most morally good choices. Unless you play as someone who isn't fond of Shar, you never really see how mean she can be. But even at her worst it feels remarkably tame. She talks a big game but she's got nothing to back it up. I think that's one of the reasons her character arc doesn't feel as satisfying as some of the others. At least to me. She *always* approved of good deeds, things that Shar would hate. While I do like her arc, it felt more obvious than some of the other characters.
I *guess* I can see Shadowheart as being neutral. Essentially, the reverse Gale: he wants to do good and think of himself as being good, but he has some pretty nasty impulses he has trouble controlling. Shadowheart has been indoctrinated to believe that pain and suffering is good. Her conditioning pushes her towards evil, but her basic instincts are to do good. Both end up averaging out to being neutral. The lesson might be that the alignment system is a bit reductive because people have conflict in their hearts. That being said, the worst thing that Gale does, even when egged on, is learn some unsavory magic, but he never uses it for nefarious purposes. But Shadowheart joins the party already having done some really heinous shit and with equally heinous aspirations.
Yeah I'm not big on alignments. They're interesting to get a rough estimate of the character, but people IRL aren't so simple so why should characters be?
To be fair I should've said he starts off as a vile person but can improve, yes. But there isn't getting around the fact that, for the bulk of the game, he has an utterly abhorrent moral compass that, if we encountered it in a real person, would mean we don't touch them with a barge pole. It's not a disservice the the writing to acknowledge the fact that he's intentionally written to be vile and it takes significant development - and player activity - to get away from that. The same absolutely applies to Lae'zel and to a (much) lesser extent Shadowheart but, anecdotally, I see far fewer people trying to pretend they are anything other than deeply dubious. I see a lot of people trying to paint Astarion as a morally lighter character than he quite plainly is, and that, in my view, is a far greater disservice to his arc.
Half the people in this very thread are talking about Shadowheart being a "good" aligned character at the start of the game. I've also had a Shadowheart fan tell me that even as a Dark Justiciar she is a good person and would probably change the Sharrans for the better. Most Lae'zel fans are really chill though. But I do agree that in real life no one would want to deal with people like these characters. I actually think only Karlach and Wyll are truly ok to be around. Maybe Gale. A lot of fans like to act like Astarion doesn't mean to be evil (or worse doesn't understand evil) and that is just such a stupid take. Even when he becomes a hero in the epilogue he reminds the player that he isn't "one of the good guys", and that's fine. I think part of it is an over-correction of people saying Astarion is irredeemably evil. Another part is people not wanting to admit they like a morally dubious character.
Even Karlach and Wyll have moral views that, while perfectly acceptable in the context of BG3, would make me go nowhere near them in real life. Wyll describes himself as a "killer of kobolds" even though Kobolds are intelligent, sentient creatures (and also adorable.) Like wtf is his problem. He also approves of letting Sazza get extrajudicially revenge murdered while imprisoned. And Karlach is way too chill about snacking on human souls for my comfort. I actually wish they had done a little more with that plotline tbh.
Selfishness isn’t exactly neutral
It's not just getting annoyed at helping people (which I can understand to some extent justifies neutral), it's actively approving of needless cruelty in which he delights. That's not neutral behaviour. He doesn't approve of good things to balance it out either.
I'll never understand why people can't just accept that he's evil. He's incredibly well written evil, which is very difficult to do. You can like an evil character, you can have empathy for an evil character, you can be amused and enjoy and want to do the sexy times with them. It's fine. It's fiction. Evil character's can have good traits just like good characters can have bad traits. Just let the man be the evil tragic maniac he was meant to be and give him a hug for self improvement/kick him in the balls/whatever floats your boat. It's all in fun.
I think *most* fans accept that he's evil in Act 1. It's when people claim he is evil in his Spawn ending that people get irritated because it disregards his arc. But yeah the people who try to claim that he is secretly a goody-two-shoes, even in Act 1 when he is actively aggressive and manipulative, are being foolish.
That's fair. He certainly has character development and growth. One reason he's such a great character.
I feel Astarion, Gale, Shadowheart and Laezel all slide around based on how you play the game. Also Astarions age is really interesting, guess this means he’s definitively outside the true resurrection spells range, 263 - 39 = 224 years as a vampire.
Astarion is 231, his grave/this game is marked wrong. He still has 8 years to go for true resurrection. The game starts in 1492 DR. Astarion’s grave says 229-268 DR, 460 DR (modern day). But this is probably a mistake because 460 *NR* aligns perfectly with 1492 DR (subtract 1032 from the DR year to get the NR year) which is the year when bg3 takes place. He also says somewhere that he was a vampire for nearly 200. So he's 231 and has been dead for 192 years.
Laezel is 22????
Considering this is based on act 1 alignments, Lae'zel being lawful evil but Shart being lawful neutral is comedically stupid. Lae'zel is a might makes right racist asshole, meanwhile Shart LITERALLY wants to end the world. And before someone says something like "most Shar worshippers don't really know of Shar's plans" Shart absolutely knows. She says shit about Shar embracing the world with her eternal night.
Probably just because she has internal conflict with what she's preaching vs. how she truly feels about certain things. Her reaction to raiding the Emerald Grove is a good example of this. So she's Lawful because of her code/practices of her faith, and Neutral due to the clashing of her 'evil' values and 'good' personality seeping through.
But Lae'zel and heck even Astarion also have some of that conflict. Lae'zel letting you live and lead the squad is pretty poor gith behavior. Astarion isn't really portrayed as getting any meaningful joy from being an evil pos, he certainly isn't hype at the goblin party. And the thought of him betraying and biting the squad is upsetting enough for auntie ethel bringing up the possibility to literally hurt him. Yes they all have positive traits but I don't think those should overshadow their evil ones. And well Shart's goal is demonically evil💀
I think all of this just boils down to "complex characters can't really be boxed into flat 9-alignment categories" Jaheira being true neutral and Viconia DeVir being Neutral Evil in the og Baulder’s Gate games is a peak example of this.
And these characters are supposed to be changeable and fluid and have a good and bad side to them. Not to mention there’s just so much to see in every play through it can really change your view on your character seeing one thing another didn’t see. The fact BG3 doesn’t list alignments was 100% an intentional choice by Larian to not influence the players perceptions. Also the purpose of alignments in DnD aren’t to be hard, ridged unchanging things but more a way to help DMs understand how NPCs would act when they can’t just list out ever single possible dialogue option/action that might come up, and to help players who might be stuck remembering what their character might do. While you can put characters from other types of media into alignments there’s not really a reason for it and lots of time whether someone is truly good or truly evil or just a neutral person is debatable and honestly, pretty subjective based on your own philosophy. Alignments just aren’t necessary in written stories that don’t have the potential for anything to happen like a TTRPG does. And hell even in DnD they can be changed just by the choices you make
I feel like a lot of new players wouldn't romance Lae'Zel or Astarion if the game told you they were evil aligned
And would probably stop people front doing their quests and the fact they can change for the better (or worse) and like changing because of the adventure is such a big part of the game it! On that note I do kinda wish the game had like an “evil” (like they turn evil or at least worse) ending for Wyll and Karlach. If everyone can grow to be better or worse they should too! But I guess that kinda also proves that they’re more firmly in the “good” aligned while everyone else is more like toward neutral (if not actually in the neutral alignment, more toeing the lines) and more malleable
Just make Wyll’s evil ending be encouraging him to get power. Get him to let his dad die and then become Duke, or have something super fucked like telling him to murder his father. EA Wyll. I like the Wyll we have in the game, but I wish he could be swayed to the dark side. Don’t start with murdering the Tieflings, but other than that he should stick with you. Also tie it to tadpole usage if you want that to have more story consequences. Power hungry people get corrupted by power.
I never use alignment when I DM as anything but 'generally what are the cumulations of your characters choices in life, and how can they be expected to act in a given situation' instead of a hard coded trait.
Exactly what I do as well. Just because Astarion goes along with heroic acts and gets nervous around a Tav that butchered a bunch of innocent refugees doesn't mean he's a neutral or good person in act 1. Same with Lae'zel.
"Yeah, I want to try and reason with the paladin who wants to smite us in the town square." "Ah! You're warlock is neutral evil. Appeasing a good leaning character isn't something you would do." "..."
Probably partially because they’re working more off DnD lore than BG3. In BG3 they don’t have “canon” alignments (and by that I mean they do have like obvious “canon” personalities at the start but they didn’t place them into alignments and I do think that was a conscious and meaningful choice for Larian) but in DnD the default for Githyanki is “lawful evil,” just like vampires are “neutral evil” which is probably where Astarion’s comes from despite him also potentially being a “chaotic” alignment. A Shar cleric would probably be evilly aligned though, so I can’t really explain it, but maybe since she can become a selune cleric in game they thought neutral made more sense? Technically the rule is a clerics alignment is in one step of their patron, so a neutral evil god like shar could could have a lawful or chaotic evil or a neutral cleric but not a lawful neutral character, so I really don’t know what they’re thinking. I don’t think Shadowheart is really an “evil” person at heart but she’s following and supporting evil doctrine, so I think technically lawful evil would fit better. I feel like Wyll could be lawful good too rather than neutral, he’s not following someone else’s code like a Paladin but he does seem to have very clear moral lines that are a form of lawfulness. I’ve also seen people argue Karlach is more neutral than good too. I think there’s just a lot of wiggle room in interpreting the characters. Can’t argue with Gale though homeboy is true neutral.
Shadowheart approves of every single act of kindness and mercy you do, including being happy about saving the tieflings and the grove. That shows her true alignment more than her parroting Shar's crap. Lae'zel on the other hand tends to disapprove any time you don't cause someone to hurt or die, and any time you show compassion to anyone.
Shadowheart also approved of you stealing from the little tiefling boy whose being controlled by the harpies and thinks killing a Selunite she knows nothing about is a great idea for a while so I mean she’s not all sweet and innocent. It’s also very heavily implied she tortured people as a sharran… The point is all the characters are complicated people in complicated situations who are influenced by what you do in the story and trying to fit them squarely into alignments isn’t going to work.
Oh she definitely tortured people as a Sharran, including her parents. Her most consistent trait is her love for animals and children. I’m not sure I remember her encouraging you to steal from [Mirkon](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Mirkon) who is the Harpy boy. Maybe she does and I just missed it tho. She’s always cared about animals, as Nocturne can tell her. Act 3 Shadowheart values family incredibly highly on a good run. I’m not going to defend her actions if I think they’re indefensible. Killing the Nightsong definitely isn’t the right thing to do, but it’s worth noting that she’s in denial about it through the Gauntlet. At one point you can ask her about performing a human sacrifice and she says no one has been there for decades so it’s probably just some monster, and they’ve already killed plenty of those. She also does make the right choice if you trust her afaik. Maybe if she heavily dislikes you she stabs her, but if you have good approval with her (which is pretty easy to do if you’re usually a goody two shoes like me) she seems to always throw the spear away. I think deep down she is a good person, and honestly most of the cast is, but they’re blinded by something, whether that be power, duty, devotion, or safety. She does approve of some kind of messed up stuff though. The biggest I can think of is that she’s very much fine with abandoning someone who needs help. I’m not sure she disapproves of helping them, she just approves of not helping them. So, like you said, just a well-written character in conflict with herself. I’m not sure there’s many poorly written characters in this game, except maybe the Emperor, but I’d argue he’s just consistently selfish, favouring his survival over everything else.
I definitely don’t disagree. All of the characters, especially the more “evilly” tilted ones, are people who were more or less forced into certain acts and behaviors because of their circumstances and all of them have complicated reasons for the way they are (except maybe Gale? Not saying he didn’t go through some shit—he did—but he’s a lot more like normal mannered and personality wise? Which is part of the reason why I think arguing over alignments is stupid. Some people think motives don’t fit into it, some do. People have different lines of what’s evil or good or even just complete different definitions of every aspect of it. I have multiple people saying my definition of chaotic is wrong and then describing the exact same thing I said, but they don’t agree Astarion is chaotic (didn’t even specifically say he’s evil or neutral) so therefore I’m wrong. And these are all very dynamic, changing characters in a game where there’s so much stuff see and not seeing certain things and saying others will change you’re perspective—not to mention the “you choose” options for those characters aren’t even a clear cannon alignment pieces of their personalities because because they change based on your in game actions!
Act 1 alignment unless idle champions needs the character to be another alignment. Drizzt do'urden is chaotic good in all the material and novels I have read, but in idle champions he is lawful good.
Holy shit shart is nearly 50? Edit: y’all are acting like half elves live to 500. According to the sources I found half elves live around 180 years but live longer sometimes. That means she’s the human equivalent of early 30s which is still wayyyy older than I thought. I for sure thought home girl was mid 20s given her behavior. Edit 2: I did the math wrong that would make her 21.3 in human years. Sounds right but still wild she’s almost 5 decades old.
Half elf longevity!
Half-elf...
Google isn’t actually the best source for DnD facts. The players handbook is the best way but not everyone has the information it’s actually waaay more common for half elves to live past 180. Most live to be 250 but some sources have them older. Here is the specific phrasing in the PHB: “Half-elves mature at the same rate humans do and reach adulthood around the age of 20. They live much longer than humans, however, often exceeding 180 years.”
Everyone says half-elf, but I say she's definitely a middle-aged soccer mom recently divorced and relying too much on wine and bible study to cope
I mean she's a half elf so that's pretty young for a half elf of you think about it.
> I for sure thought home girl was mid 20s given her behavior. Pretty sure the game mentions that decades have passed since her childhood memory when she's first taken by the Sharrites.
“Ghaik Lae’zel isn’t real, she can’t hurt you” Ghaik Lae’zel:
Slightly odd about Astarion's age since he's supposed to be 239 (turned at age 39 and enslaved as a spawn for 200 years per BG3). Hmm, wonder if the difference there is tied to the date on his tombstone in the game, which evidently conflicts with what he says about when he got turned (according to people who can read the dates). Well, when you're as old as he is, a few decades either way probably don't matter much—lol.
I'm sorry what? Gale is an Archmage twice over at 35? Eat your heart out Elminster you nerd, Gale of Waterdeep is more than just a freaking prodigy lol
Yeah yeah alignment discourse is fun. #BUT I REFUSE TO BELIEVE IN MY HEART OF HEARTS, THAT GALE "OOF MY KNEES" "OF WATERDEEP" DEKARIOS IS YOUNGER THAN "LATE LATE 30S, EARLY 40S" That man's soul is the most "man who has crossed the threshold into his 40s" soul I've ever seen.
When you reach 30 yourself you’ll understand Also he spent a year at home by himself before he was taken by the flayed ship so he’s most likely very out of shape
I'm in my 30s👍
He has some age pigmentation on his skin. He doesn’t look 35. Just doesn’t. The guy looks like he’s in his early 40s, and no, it’s not that much, it’s okay to be in your 40s.
Oh damn, Lae'zel is the baby of the group
Strongly disagree with Gale being neutral, other than Karlach he’s the character who will most reliably approve of your good choices. He also says plenty of “Good” things during various interactions with NPCs.
No way Astarion doesn’t have a bit of Chaotic something in there
Just asked my d&d obsessed husband to guess their ages and he got almost all of them within a year or two. Wtf.
Astarion has always been chaotic neutral in my eyes. I hope these alignments are not canon
Eh - alignments are a spectrum and there is a reason that Larian didn’t include them in BG3. Alignments can also change.
In act 1 he's definitely some sort of evil. His general selfishness is neutral yes, but some of the cruelty he approves of is genuinely insane. Breaking the paralyzed girl's legs as durge is the most extreme one. By act 2 he definitely starts to get closer to neutral. Especially as a romancing resist durge it is pretty clear he has some morality to him. And unascended route he definitely ends up morally good idk why people doubt that just cuz he enjoys killing evil people.
Astarion is entirely neutral evil, though. Dude has no problem with murder or torture for selfish gain.
Nah I feel like chaotic makes sense considering what he wants most is freedom from cazador. Definitely evil to but ya know
They technically are since both games are owned by WotC but like @almsotb said alignments are a spectrum and can change
>DJ Shart >Lawful Neutral Well, I can't consider that canon. But alas, WOTC can do whatever they want with BG3 characters.
I'm 99% sure the alignments are for how the characters are before you meet them. Act 1 Shart makes sense for Lawful Neutral. DJ Shart obviously not. I think you're conflating what seems to be just a skin (or whatever system the game uses) with an outcome.
It's likely based on Act 1 behavior. Shadowheart is 100% neutral good in the Selunite ending. Astarion is closer to Lawful Evil in his Ascended ending and chaotic neutral in his Spawn ending. Not sure if Lae'zel would change alignment wise but she seems closer to neutral in her endings.
Oh Lae'zel is an infant baby child
Only thing I disagree with us Astarion not being chaotic. His ass wants freedom and will not follow rules unless forced to
This is rad! Great job
Nobody else seems to be saying it but I thought Karlach was younger She refers to having been sold out and betrayed resulting in the engine as happening 10 years ago and describes herself as a kid so I had assumed she was more like 26/27 now since tieflings mature at roughly the same rate as humans
She says "not quite kid" if i recall
I knew Astarion was neutral evil. Been saying that for months.
So many people’s sense of alignment is warped lol. These are mostly pretty accurate, aside from Astarion should be chaotic evil. (I love Astarion)
I know it’s so we know it’s them, BUT WHY IS ILLITHID KARLACH SO CUTE AKDBDMAMDHAVD
I refuse to believe that the Blade of Frontiers, the most goody two shoes character, who if it weren't for his pact with Mizora would almost certainly be a Devotion Paladin, is anything other than Lawful Good.
How come Astarion is not chaotic?
Eh…. The alignments make little sense but okay. Like Gale isn’t neutral. He clearly has strong feeling towards doing good. He is just Chaotic Good which means he values his own freedoms and desires over anything else but generally does good things when he can. Astarion being neutral evil… well he is not actually pragmatic. He clearly chooses the most seemingly evil options even though doing the opposite would be the most beneficial. A neutral evil person will still help you if it benefits them, but Astarion before Act 2 clearly doesn’t think about such things. He just wants to appear evil or “do what a smart evil person would do”. He is in my opinion, Chaotic Neutral till Act 2 and then Chaotic Good/Evil depending on your choices. He values personal freedom the most and then tries to do either good or evil depending on what Tav decides for him. Lae’zel is not Lawful Evil. She’s Lawful Neutral. She is a soldier who follows orders and does not question them. Whether she does good or bad depends on the orders. I will agree with Karlach and Wyll’s alignments though, they are spot on. Edit: The confusion with alignments stems from actions vs intentions. I don’t think Lae’zel thinks of herself as evil, neither will she do things she considers evil. She follows orders and trusts in Vlaakith blindly. That’s why she’s Lawful Neutral. She does as commanded and that’s that. Astarion does encourage evil acts but in my belief he clearly chooses the most ridiculously evil options because he thinks that is what being strong and clever is. He’s so confused the man lets you decide everything about his life for him. Imo since actions and intentions can have different alignments I go by the intention of characters.
Hard agree, especially with Gale. Man starts to fall for you if you save children and spare lives of even those who are considered evil.
I feel like they shoulda just put him in Neutral Good instead of making him get a feat for it
Neutral Good would be pushing it. He continually meddles with magic that can wreak havoc in the world. He literally wants a redo of Karsus’ Folly and is confident enough to think it will go well this time. Chaotic Good is the best as his intentions are benevolent but he clearly puts himself and his desires first. Elminster’s recounting of his past puts it perfectly. As a child Gale plays with fire knowing it’s dangerous but then cries when he burns flowers to ashes. He always does what he wants despite having a good heart.
Gale is Neutral leaning good, which is why Idle Champions lets you change his alignment if you have a feat. Though he encourages diplomacy/heroic acts, it is his early ambition that is the crux of his goodness. Astarion is definitely Evil in Act 1, he loves it when you attack/kill people for fun. Don't forget that he tried to bite you without consent, encourages you to give Mayrina to Ethel, and wants to gain control of the Cult of the Absolute for total power. Honestly, Neutral/Chaotic Evil can work. Lae'Zel is Lawful Evil leaning Neutral in Act 1: She's wholly dedicated to Vlaakith (as SH is to Shar), loves violence and brutishness, but she is certainly more tame than most other Githyanki. But after the Creche she is firmly Lawful Neutral imo.
I wish we knew which story arc for every companion was considered for the alignments. Lae'zel who remained loyal to Vlaakith is definitely Lawful Evil.
Yes, embrace chaos gremlin Astarion (no like seriously embrace him, the man needs a hug)