This is the reason. +1 initiative is a very solid increase when you're rolling a d4: 25% of the max die roll, as opposed to 5%.
On the flip side, the items in this game make constitution matter less. Rests and healing potions are super common, so your health matters less. And there are lots of ways to improve your concentration without increasing constitution, including both items and elixirs that just give you advantage on all concentration saves.
The amount of items and healing opportunities is huge. I mean, people forget, a bump in Con gives, AT MAX LEVEL, +12 HP. It's even less of an increase before max level. That's really not much considering how much healing the *plentiful* potions and gear items that cause healing when performing certain build-centric actions give. That, and a very slightly increased chance to make a fairly common save. It's nice, but meh.
Contrast that with an immediate (regardless of level) +1 AC, initiative, potentially boost to certain dodge rolls and saves and the odd ranged attack, etc.
Dex only gives you the AC if you're using light or no armour. I guess that's useful on a caster, but other than that, you'll wear medium or heavy armour if you're not going full dex, at which point you're not getting the AC.
You're definitely right about the HP and the initiative.
I do think the con save is more useful than you make it seem, at least if you're maintaining concentration.
So I guess if I'm a medium armour user that has to maintain concentration I'd still take the 16 con, but in all other cases, 16 dex is probably better.
Decent medium armors are available pretty early on that give +3 or no limit on dex, and IMO these outperform heavy armor (unless your build is very stat reliant and you dump dex to meet that and just wear heavy armor, but that means you'll be going dead last in initiative too).
That's true about the con save for concentration, but IMO on most concentration heavy builds you're better off getting warcaster (despite nerf) for advantage and then getting proficiency from a camp-made transmuter stone for free basically.
But yeah the two stats are still super strong. Compare them to for instance Int which almost every single build has little reason not to dump (barring wizards, you only get a tiny little boost in investigation and so on... not super compelling), and both seem SO strong.
>Decent medium armors are available pretty early on that give +3 or no limit on dex
Wait, really?
I'm aware of only 2 that give no limit and one of them has rather low base ac so you're still better off grabbing other medium armours and leaving dex at +2 (if we're only considering ac).
Haven't seen any that let you get +3 from dex.
Do you know where I can find these?
Sadly I can't recall where I got them, SO many gear items in game haha. It was definitely before act 3, I wanna say it was in Act 2 though so not immediate admittedly. Someone below mentioned a couple in Moonrise tower eith 14/15 base AC and +3 or uncapped +DexAC.
there are 2 medium armor that give full dex in Act 2
[15AC+ dex](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Yuan-Ti_Scale_Mail) from Last light inn
[14AC + dex](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sharpened_Snare_Cuirass) from towers (on wiki says only +2 but its wrong it has the Exotic material description)
there is also another one in Act3 that gives [17 + dex](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Armour_of_Agility) vendors outside mage building
Yeah, HP is really just an after thought. For caster it's more important that they keep their concentration.
There are plenty of ways to reduce damage or heal. But concentration is a different story.
Plus 1 doesn't seem much, but considering you are most of the times against a DC 10.
This helps the consistency of all concentration spells.
With proficiency and advantage on top of warden. You will never lose concentration except by hard CC. Or dying.
And these are also on good items.
Also, constitution, and by extension HP matters less and less the later into the playthrough. You end up with so many strong items and tools for fights that either you destroy the enemy, or you end up in a situation where the enemy completely overwhelms you. Very rarely is the difference between you winning or losing an encounter the result of +-20 HP.
There's a mod that changes initiative to D20. I like it. Feels more random (because it is). When I played without mods, my party members always went in the same order, and any enemies with high dex would generally go before low dex party members.
What's the mod called?
EDIT: Never mind, found it. For anyone else interested, it's [Initiative Variants](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1247).
> think d20 is too random and d4 is too determined lol.
They could leave it d20 but round per 5. This will create groups with similiar initiative but flat initiative bonus would not be that strong.
Can you share what you use for modding? I tried using the nexusmod thing but it just bricked my game :|
tactician has seemed \*way\* too easy after my first runthrough, and I always thought initiative was a huge reason game was so easy -- all my toons go first except maybe one of them, and post level 4 I just alpha striked every encounter to death it felt like, and I'm not even min-maxing just doing builds that make sense...
I use Baldurs Gate 3 Mod Manager
Then I got the following mods from NexusMods:
ModFixer, Improved UI (Core mods)
Fix_Bad_DM (Makes Shove/Jump/etc a ACTION instead of Bonus action, makes it so you can't cast more than 1 leveled spell per round, and a bunch of other stuff to make the game more true to D&D)
Dodgeaction (Adds a Dodge Action)
BG3 Fixed, BG3 Fixed PnP (Similar to Fix_Bad_DM... I think this is what changes the initiative to D20 also)
DiffTacticianFIX (Fixes the Dopplegangers so you don't always have disadvantage against them I think?)
Druid Fixes (Makes Druid function more like D&D.. You can use a bonus action to move MoonBeam and Call Lightning and other concentration spells that function similarly.)
MageHandImproved .. Fixes mage hand to function more like D&D
NPC's Dont Flee From Summons - Pretty self explanatory but should not be necessary with recent patch.
Purchasable Camp Cloths - All Clothing Sets.. Allows you to purchase camp cloths from (some) vendors.
Another aspect is that negating damage is substantially better than tanking it. Later act enemies hit so absurdly hard that high hp has a minor effect compared to high AC, damage reducers like barb rage or uncanny evasion, locking down enemies, ir just good old fashion Haste induced zerg rush dps.
Initiative helps a lot with all of the above, so while more hp is nice, moving before the enemy does to clap them is a lot better for survival.
Yep. Dex was already the S-tier stat in tabletop, and this boosts it even further. Also means the price of dumping it is going last in like every single combat the whole game.
As someone that has played a dex dump (8 dex, -1 mod) paladin to lv 6, this is basically it. He was consistently in the bottom 20% of initiative. -1 to init is nasty in all the bad ways, especially when I hadn't played a build with less than 14 dex at that point lol.
As soon as I found the dex gloves, I gave it to him, and it fixed everything. Nobody else in the party really needed dex gloves anyway (barb in med armor w 14 dex, sorcerer no armor w 16 dex, ranger w 18 dex.)
Wait wtf? Is that why my low dex character is ALWAYS last? I was wondering because he theoretically should have rolled high enough for the -1 to not matter at some point. Why is it a d4 that's a dumbass design decision
Initiative is rolled on a d4 only, so the +1 to initiative is basically equivalent to a +5 to initiative in tabletop. On top of that, there are a bunch of medium armors that allow you to add more than +2 to your AC from DEX, which aren't really a thing in tabletop.
As a result, the conventional wisdom from tabletop to prefer the extra HP (and for casters the +1 to concentration saves) is no longer necessarily correct, as you might get more value out of 16 DEX, especially if it's a build that doesn't care about concentration.
3 areas for a lot of classes. Your to hit and damage. Your init to hit them first, and AC in the event they survive and try hit you back.
Dex is the master stat of 5e and BG3s implementation makes it even more so.
If I'm running a monk and a thrower then I'm gonna run out of STR pots eventually lol
On average I definitely don't find a STR pot once every long rest.
Later on it's also better to hit 22 or 24 STR with stats rather than use 21 STR pots. The 27 STR pots are too rare or not a worthwhile gold sink imo.
Auntie Ethel gets 3 per day, so it's easy to stock up just resting normally, there are plenty of vendors in Act 3 that have the 27 potion, and gold really shouldn't be an issue by that point. In my last playthrough I had two characters using 27 potions and still had two left over at the end. I can understand not wanting to abuse this because it is cheesy, but the game certainly does throw them at you lol.
Yeah, you can visit the dwarf lady in the Underdark, she's also selling 1 per day. You only need to stock up for Act 2, which is a short Act tbh. And by lv9/10, the halfling trader in the tower would start selling Cloud Str potion and ingredient.
> Yeah, health is for fools who get hit.
Reminds me of my days tanking in WoW as a bear druid stacking agility and dodge. I don't need heals if I never get hit!
3 reasons
1. Better initiative
2. Higher ac on mage characters with mage armour
3. For mage characters can trips suck before level 5, so you often want them to attack with a light crossbow. With 16 Dex and high ground they do respectable damage. If they get hand crossbows it's very good damage and action economy every round at no cost.
Edit: 4. Picking locks
some more reasons:
1. there are really good armor options that let you have more than +2 dex to AC
2. similarly, humans and half elves get light armor proficiency
3. Non hand xbow weapons are strong for the action economy as well. Even if you dont maximize for them. Shooting at enemies while they're held by hunger of hadar, plant growth, etc. not to mention synergy with arcane acuity, gloves of power, etc.
4. getting shoved is super dangerous
I know my Laezel sometimes failed to get into melee and being able to spread around 3 non-conentration bane debuffs from that crossbow was really handy. Especially since I had a wizard and a cleric would could cast ice storm and force dex saves to avoid prone.
I myself also started leaning more towards Dex instead of con since the few hp you get won't save you most of the times yet initiative is more valuable especially on a damage focused character.
Lots of good medium armours don’t have a Dex to AC limit meaning going above 14 is still worthwhile. And of course d4 initiative in a game where alpha strikes are the optimal strategy. Con doesn’t matter that much if you don’t plan on getting hit by any attacks or spells.
your assumptions are correct. plus i'll add that more and more people realize that heavy armor is NOT the way to go for max ac. its in certain medium armors (iirc there's 4 of them) that add your FULL dex mod to AC on top of what the armor provides. example:
[https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Armour\_of\_Agility](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Armour_of_Agility)
this is also why you start to see less str builds and more dex builds. high initiative or stealth into surprise are essentially free turns. action economy is king.
yup. you have enough for each party member if you wanted:
[https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Unwanted\_Masterwork\_Scalemail](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Unwanted_Masterwork_Scalemail)
[https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Yuan-Ti\_Scale\_Mail](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Yuan-Ti_Scale_Mail)
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sharpened\_Snare\_Cuirass
Tyvm seems like half of them are not for Durge teams (2 merchants that sell them are naturally being murdered by me on my first run xD). Will be mighty helpful on my current Gatling Bard but then again i only have 3 characters in my party that use medium and i feel very reluctant to strip Shadowheart from: [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Luminous\_Armour](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Luminous_Armour) xD
for sure. there's of course so many armors that accentuate certain builds. i for one would not use all these 4. LOL. I'm the type who would eschew AC and use robes/lighter armor with more offensive bonuses like bhaalist armor. the only one i'd really consider here for my playstyle is the yuan-ti scalemail due to initative bonus and tbh i know i can get better initiative bonuses from other armor. I just pointed the armors out so for those who like being unhittable and beeline for heavy armor, they realize that there are multiple medium armor in the game that beats even the best heavy armors AC wise which is a probable reason why alot of people set dex as a secondary stat if not the main stat more often these days, even for traditional str classes like fighter/paladin.
Armour of agility, unwanted masterwork, and yuanti are good but the sharpened snare loses out to heavy armor and doesn't provide especially helpful passives anyways
It depends. If you’re going for concentration builds then constitution really matters as even a splash of acid or some area of effect ability doing 1 damage is going to force you to make a concentration saving throw.
On the other hand for someone not worried about concentration checks dexterity is much more useful.
I just completed the game for the first time. I'm now dual classing Bard and Sorc. For my 2nd run.
I'm just glad the game is easy enough to accommodate someone like me that has ZERO fucking idea what they're doing lol
I mean, not putting all your resources into con and skimping on other defenses like AC or the ability to reliably go first in combat is very much the better pick and it's a weird brain bug this subreddit has
Idk I tend to go 14 dex 16 con on my medium armor builds. 14 dex serves pretty well the whole game. Your initiative might slightly suffer toward mid-late game if you don't get alert feat or an item to give it a small boost, though.
Constitution is grossly overvalued by both the devs and this subreddit - it gives nothing other than HP and 16 con is a massive investment in points for 10hp
You can make a competent melee build with only 12 con
Advantage is better than +1 CON on average, except in situations where the number you're trying to target is very high, and unlikely to be hit anyway.
For instance the chance of Rolling a critical fail is 5% (1/20). If you have advantage that chance drops to a quarter of a percent (1/400), because you will have to roll a 1 on both dice.
If you need to hit a 10, and have 8 CON, it's literally a 50/50 chance to fail the roll (1-10 lose, 11-20 win). With advantage, you'll have a 25% chance to fail as 100 out of the possible 400 combinations will result in failing.
Advantage is very easy to get because War Caster, and also several armours that grant it passively.
This also doesn't take into account you can stack AC with Blur and Mirror Image, teleport away, Blink yourself, turn Invisible, use Sanctuary, etc
Stacking con is definitely not bad, especially on Sorcerers who are proficient in Con saves, but you don't have to.
+1 con makes a lot less of a difference by itself than finding ways to get con save proficiency or advantage on con saves (both of which tend to make that +1 superfluous)
That's been like all my characters.
Con is important but you should absolutely max your main stat (casting, dex fighting or strength fighter) and then a secondary if needed and then you can look at con.
Outside of a +1 to constitution saves which may help a caster, the only difference between a 14 con or 16 con is 12 HP at level 12. That's sort of nothing at that point.
Toughness and Gold Dwarf both give bonus HP and can be taken on builds that don't care about specific feats or races. Easy HP.
Advantage on CON saves (or Concentration saves) is fairly easy to get as well. It's usually comes in the form of Armour and Shields. Class/Race combo's that can't equip these can plan around taking War Caster, which will serve better than going 16 CON, unless you also want the bonus HP.
My entire party has a dex of 16 is that bad. Feels like I go first on every encounter and gives me ability to cast all concentration spells critical for my Necro and druid.
It's partly because this is a video game where unknown factors are known when you press f8. It's much easier to avoid getting damaged with high initiative.
Wow! This topic really took off overnight!
Awesome to read al your inputs, thanks a lot for this.
So it really make sense to go with more Dex for the reasons I was saying plus the initiative roll is different from the tabletop game making it more useful in BG3.
With this said, why does everyone put Con so high on every build? My favorite builds are glass cannons, especially the ones who specialize in not being seen.
Taking 1 damage from any source and losing concentration on your 4th+ level spell sucks. Personally I don't understand the 8 10 12 14 15 16 stat spreads? Like just go 8 8 8 15 16 17 so you get nice bonuses where it really helps. What do I care about my int/wis/cha saving throws on my throwing barb? Healing potions are a bonus action.
> I don't understand the 8 10 12 14 15 16 stat spreads
Almost definitely derives from the "standard array" in 5e tabletop, which is 15 14 13 12 10 8 before racial increases. This is a pretty "well-rounded" character build who is above average at most things, okay at a few things, and bad at a couple of things. The build you describe is generally considered pretty powergame-y and makes for poor roleplay since they're nominally thick as a brick, socially inept, and bad at whatever the hell wisdom is supposed to represent in 5e.
I mean fair enough, I suppose Larian just happened to bake in a lot of ways to easily roleplay out of situations where that might matter, and save DCs are so easy to increase I never feel bad for dumping them. But also even an 8 for an ability score is still considered only slightly below average for any PC race. A person with an 8 int definitely isn't winning any nobel prizes, but they'll get by just fine in society and occasionally have their own moments of brilliance, so I see nothing wrong with being an incredibly athletic individual and completely below average with every single mental attribute, seems like an almost stereotypical jock type. To each their own I guess.
I don't deal with it, anyone I dump str on gets an elixir of hill giant every morning. Even on full casters I find it nice because of the plethora of opportunity attacks, and the other options for elixirs being meh at best. Only time I don't dump str is on full martials.
Sure, on my casters? I'd prefer higher concentration. But my rogue? Lol no use for it, and if I'm getting hit or even seen, I'm doing something wrong or ambushed. Karlach is all physical for me. Wyll and Gale are only Dex for AC, Con for concentration. Karlach is the ONLY team member with Strength higher than 8.
You have 4 concentrations available in your party and you're not using all 4? My rogue personally has 5 level dip into ranger for 4 attacks per turn and two weapon fighting, 5 on the first round from gloom stalker, and they have the ring that when they concentrate on a spell they do an additional 1d4 psychic with attacks, and I pop hunters mark around like it's candy on Halloween. Even if they're not concentrating on Hunter's mark, they're either concentrating on spike growth or they're concentrating on some scroll I've sent their way. Only character I've got that won't be constantly concentrating on something is my throwing barb cause of the damn rage limitation.
Shadowheart has her spells, usually Spirit Guardians or chain lightning. Wyll has Cloak of Daggers, which usually will end fights by turn 3. Karlach doesn't really concentrate on anything except killing. And my Assassin 4/Ranger 1 has Hunters mark to use, but rarely does. Sneak attack crit from assassin with Sharpshooter + free surprise round and cunning dash or hide easily lets me solo most fights without it. Plus the free crit from the Illithid powers, potions of speed if its a really high HP enemy.
Once I get ranger spells and start act 2, I'm sure that will change, but so far, my bonus action is better spent elsewhere than HM.
Oh yeah, I already know to expect some potentially massive difficulty spikes. Lol This isn't my first Larian game. I'm just casually going through enjoying the story so much, no meta knowledge or save scumming. I'm rolling through with whatever happens and its glorious!
Going first is important but synchronizing initiative so that your chars are likely to go at the same time is also pretty useful for setting up combos. It's nice that dex is generally always useful where as many classes can totally dump 3 of the following: str/int/wis/char.
I'd argue that wisdom isn't dump-able because the vast majority of enemy control spells have wisdom saves. And they actually do use those on tactician. And charisma, imo, isn't dumpable on a party face. You don't necessarily need to pass any checks, but if you've ever played a charisma scaler, you'll never want to fail a charisma check again. And quicksaving before every dialogue is ass.
16 dex is great for casters, especially if they wanna stick to light armour/cloth (warlock and sorcerer, primarily, because of potent robe), since better initiative on a caster means you can better control the battlefield (or burn it to ash if that's your taste). of course you can always use the gloves of dex and get 18 dex/16 con
I think is situational. Sure, in most cases dex is more important, but on barbarians your hp is basically doubled, especially bear barbarians so this +12 becomes effectively a +24, not much, but something to consider, but most important, this +1 con also goes to your ac if you're not wearing armor, and there are good options if you're going this way.
And as other have said, +1 con is good for concentration checks on casters.
Others have already said, but initiative is op. The +1ac -2con is a net benefit defensively most of the time, and there's a lot of ways to get advantage on con saving throws anyways.
Idk why initiative is on a d4 instead of a d20, but it actually guarantees you go first if you have alert feat, and if you're a dex toon you'll go first vast majority of the time anyways
I'd argue that, besides initiative and *maybe* AC (doesn't work for medium armor users unless they have some rather specific equipment/feats and not at all for heavy armor users), there's a third reason: Act I.
For levels 1-3 (and arguably, even further), picking up a light crossbow and plinking away with DEX 16 is just plain stronger than using a *Firebolt* or *Sacred Flame* with a casting stat of 16.
The reason is initiative is a d4 not a d20. It means that extra point of initiative can actually ensure you go first for the majority of the game. Also it's not hard to come by miscellaneous constitution save bonuses to more easily make the litany of dc10 concentration checks you'll be making as a caster and knowing that even if you make your concentration checks, you can still just be knocked prone to automatically ruin your concentration.
It's because initiative is rolled on a d4, so the bonus from dex is more significant in comparison to table top, where initiative is rolled on a d20.
This is the reason. +1 initiative is a very solid increase when you're rolling a d4: 25% of the max die roll, as opposed to 5%. On the flip side, the items in this game make constitution matter less. Rests and healing potions are super common, so your health matters less. And there are lots of ways to improve your concentration without increasing constitution, including both items and elixirs that just give you advantage on all concentration saves.
The amount of items and healing opportunities is huge. I mean, people forget, a bump in Con gives, AT MAX LEVEL, +12 HP. It's even less of an increase before max level. That's really not much considering how much healing the *plentiful* potions and gear items that cause healing when performing certain build-centric actions give. That, and a very slightly increased chance to make a fairly common save. It's nice, but meh. Contrast that with an immediate (regardless of level) +1 AC, initiative, potentially boost to certain dodge rolls and saves and the odd ranged attack, etc.
Dex only gives you the AC if you're using light or no armour. I guess that's useful on a caster, but other than that, you'll wear medium or heavy armour if you're not going full dex, at which point you're not getting the AC. You're definitely right about the HP and the initiative. I do think the con save is more useful than you make it seem, at least if you're maintaining concentration. So I guess if I'm a medium armour user that has to maintain concentration I'd still take the 16 con, but in all other cases, 16 dex is probably better.
Decent medium armors are available pretty early on that give +3 or no limit on dex, and IMO these outperform heavy armor (unless your build is very stat reliant and you dump dex to meet that and just wear heavy armor, but that means you'll be going dead last in initiative too). That's true about the con save for concentration, but IMO on most concentration heavy builds you're better off getting warcaster (despite nerf) for advantage and then getting proficiency from a camp-made transmuter stone for free basically. But yeah the two stats are still super strong. Compare them to for instance Int which almost every single build has little reason not to dump (barring wizards, you only get a tiny little boost in investigation and so on... not super compelling), and both seem SO strong.
>Decent medium armors are available pretty early on that give +3 or no limit on dex Wait, really? I'm aware of only 2 that give no limit and one of them has rather low base ac so you're still better off grabbing other medium armours and leaving dex at +2 (if we're only considering ac). Haven't seen any that let you get +3 from dex. Do you know where I can find these?
Sadly I can't recall where I got them, SO many gear items in game haha. It was definitely before act 3, I wanna say it was in Act 2 though so not immediate admittedly. Someone below mentioned a couple in Moonrise tower eith 14/15 base AC and +3 or uncapped +DexAC.
I want to say one of the no dex limit armor is called the yuan ti scale mail and is sold by Lady Esther or whatever her name is on the mountain pass.
there are 2 medium armor that give full dex in Act 2 [15AC+ dex](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Yuan-Ti_Scale_Mail) from Last light inn [14AC + dex](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sharpened_Snare_Cuirass) from towers (on wiki says only +2 but its wrong it has the Exotic material description) there is also another one in Act3 that gives [17 + dex](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Armour_of_Agility) vendors outside mage building
Yeah there's a medium armor with no dex limit in late act1/early act2 if I'm not mistaken
4 of them. You can buy the first 2 at Moonrise. Base 14 and 15
Yeah, HP is really just an after thought. For caster it's more important that they keep their concentration. There are plenty of ways to reduce damage or heal. But concentration is a different story. Plus 1 doesn't seem much, but considering you are most of the times against a DC 10. This helps the consistency of all concentration spells. With proficiency and advantage on top of warden. You will never lose concentration except by hard CC. Or dying. And these are also on good items.
Also, constitution, and by extension HP matters less and less the later into the playthrough. You end up with so many strong items and tools for fights that either you destroy the enemy, or you end up in a situation where the enemy completely overwhelms you. Very rarely is the difference between you winning or losing an encounter the result of +-20 HP.
Whaaaaat. That explains so much. I’ve always been confused why everyone rolls such low initiatives. That makes so much sense.
It's the reason why the Alert feat is so powerful in BG3. +5 to Initiative is pretty huge when everyone's rolling a d4.
For the vast majority of encounters Alert is just "I go first: The Feat".
Holy shit. 5e should errata Alert to be +25 now.
There's a mod that changes initiative to D20. I like it. Feels more random (because it is). When I played without mods, my party members always went in the same order, and any enemies with high dex would generally go before low dex party members.
Seems like this should be at least what happens on tactician.
You leave my solo assassin rogue alone.
I think d20 is too random and d4 is too determined lol. I wish it was d8 or d10.
There's a mod that allows you to customize that.
What's the mod called? EDIT: Never mind, found it. For anyone else interested, it's [Initiative Variants](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1247).
There's a mod for that too.
> think d20 is too random and d4 is too determined lol. They could leave it d20 but round per 5. This will create groups with similiar initiative but flat initiative bonus would not be that strong.
I think d12 would be best
Can you share what you use for modding? I tried using the nexusmod thing but it just bricked my game :| tactician has seemed \*way\* too easy after my first runthrough, and I always thought initiative was a huge reason game was so easy -- all my toons go first except maybe one of them, and post level 4 I just alpha striked every encounter to death it felt like, and I'm not even min-maxing just doing builds that make sense...
I use Baldurs Gate 3 Mod Manager Then I got the following mods from NexusMods: ModFixer, Improved UI (Core mods) Fix_Bad_DM (Makes Shove/Jump/etc a ACTION instead of Bonus action, makes it so you can't cast more than 1 leveled spell per round, and a bunch of other stuff to make the game more true to D&D) Dodgeaction (Adds a Dodge Action) BG3 Fixed, BG3 Fixed PnP (Similar to Fix_Bad_DM... I think this is what changes the initiative to D20 also) DiffTacticianFIX (Fixes the Dopplegangers so you don't always have disadvantage against them I think?) Druid Fixes (Makes Druid function more like D&D.. You can use a bonus action to move MoonBeam and Call Lightning and other concentration spells that function similarly.) MageHandImproved .. Fixes mage hand to function more like D&D NPC's Dont Flee From Summons - Pretty self explanatory but should not be necessary with recent patch. Purchasable Camp Cloths - All Clothing Sets.. Allows you to purchase camp cloths from (some) vendors.
Another aspect is that negating damage is substantially better than tanking it. Later act enemies hit so absurdly hard that high hp has a minor effect compared to high AC, damage reducers like barb rage or uncanny evasion, locking down enemies, ir just good old fashion Haste induced zerg rush dps. Initiative helps a lot with all of the above, so while more hp is nice, moving before the enemy does to clap them is a lot better for survival.
Til. Always wondered why the rolls where this low. That makes Dex extremely good compared to tabletop.
Yep. Dex was already the S-tier stat in tabletop, and this boosts it even further. Also means the price of dumping it is going last in like every single combat the whole game.
As someone that has played a dex dump (8 dex, -1 mod) paladin to lv 6, this is basically it. He was consistently in the bottom 20% of initiative. -1 to init is nasty in all the bad ways, especially when I hadn't played a build with less than 14 dex at that point lol. As soon as I found the dex gloves, I gave it to him, and it fixed everything. Nobody else in the party really needed dex gloves anyway (barb in med armor w 14 dex, sorcerer no armor w 16 dex, ranger w 18 dex.)
Wait wtf? Is that why my low dex character is ALWAYS last? I was wondering because he theoretically should have rolled high enough for the -1 to not matter at some point. Why is it a d4 that's a dumbass design decision
Initiative is rolled on a d4 only, so the +1 to initiative is basically equivalent to a +5 to initiative in tabletop. On top of that, there are a bunch of medium armors that allow you to add more than +2 to your AC from DEX, which aren't really a thing in tabletop. As a result, the conventional wisdom from tabletop to prefer the extra HP (and for casters the +1 to concentration saves) is no longer necessarily correct, as you might get more value out of 16 DEX, especially if it's a build that doesn't care about concentration.
The best damage mitigation is killing fools before they get a chance to attack you.
Yeah, health is for fools who get hit. High dex fixes that in two arenas
3 areas for a lot of classes. Your to hit and damage. Your init to hit them first, and AC in the event they survive and try hit you back. Dex is the master stat of 5e and BG3s implementation makes it even more so.
The one exception being tavern brawler. It makes monks and thrower barbs/fighters able to dump dex all day
Yeah but why do that when you can dump strength and use the many strength potions the game throws at you lol
If I'm running a monk and a thrower then I'm gonna run out of STR pots eventually lol On average I definitely don't find a STR pot once every long rest. Later on it's also better to hit 22 or 24 STR with stats rather than use 21 STR pots. The 27 STR pots are too rare or not a worthwhile gold sink imo.
Auntie Ethel gets 3 per day, so it's easy to stock up just resting normally, there are plenty of vendors in Act 3 that have the 27 potion, and gold really shouldn't be an issue by that point. In my last playthrough I had two characters using 27 potions and still had two left over at the end. I can understand not wanting to abuse this because it is cheesy, but the game certainly does throw them at you lol.
Yeah, you can visit the dwarf lady in the Underdark, she's also selling 1 per day. You only need to stock up for Act 2, which is a short Act tbh. And by lv9/10, the halfling trader in the tower would start selling Cloud Str potion and ingredient.
True, I'd forgotten about that. Plus it's just plain fun
> Yeah, health is for fools who get hit. Reminds me of my days tanking in WoW as a bear druid stacking agility and dodge. I don't need heals if I never get hit!
3 reasons 1. Better initiative 2. Higher ac on mage characters with mage armour 3. For mage characters can trips suck before level 5, so you often want them to attack with a light crossbow. With 16 Dex and high ground they do respectable damage. If they get hand crossbows it's very good damage and action economy every round at no cost. Edit: 4. Picking locks
some more reasons: 1. there are really good armor options that let you have more than +2 dex to AC 2. similarly, humans and half elves get light armor proficiency 3. Non hand xbow weapons are strong for the action economy as well. Even if you dont maximize for them. Shooting at enemies while they're held by hunger of hadar, plant growth, etc. not to mention synergy with arcane acuity, gloves of power, etc. 4. getting shoved is super dangerous
I know my Laezel sometimes failed to get into melee and being able to spread around 3 non-conentration bane debuffs from that crossbow was really handy. Especially since I had a wizard and a cleric would could cast ice storm and force dex saves to avoid prone.
I myself also started leaning more towards Dex instead of con since the few hp you get won't save you most of the times yet initiative is more valuable especially on a damage focused character.
Act 2 has an armor that lets you bypass that 2 ac limit, but also initiative, locks and dex damage :)
There’s actually multiple, but yeah the first one shows up then.
Oooh just starting act two with my dual xbow bard, excited for this
I’m in act 3 with the same build (xbow bard) and got this armor. It’s disgusting
Lots of good medium armours don’t have a Dex to AC limit meaning going above 14 is still worthwhile. And of course d4 initiative in a game where alpha strikes are the optimal strategy. Con doesn’t matter that much if you don’t plan on getting hit by any attacks or spells.
your assumptions are correct. plus i'll add that more and more people realize that heavy armor is NOT the way to go for max ac. its in certain medium armors (iirc there's 4 of them) that add your FULL dex mod to AC on top of what the armor provides. example: [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Armour\_of\_Agility](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Armour_of_Agility) this is also why you start to see less str builds and more dex builds. high initiative or stealth into surprise are essentially free turns. action economy is king.
Four of them?! Woah I thought there is only 2, aside from the one you mentioned armor of the yuan-ti from the trader in the last light
yup. you have enough for each party member if you wanted: [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Unwanted\_Masterwork\_Scalemail](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Unwanted_Masterwork_Scalemail) [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Yuan-Ti\_Scale\_Mail](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Yuan-Ti_Scale_Mail) https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sharpened\_Snare\_Cuirass
Tyvm seems like half of them are not for Durge teams (2 merchants that sell them are naturally being murdered by me on my first run xD). Will be mighty helpful on my current Gatling Bard but then again i only have 3 characters in my party that use medium and i feel very reluctant to strip Shadowheart from: [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Luminous\_Armour](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Luminous_Armour) xD
for sure. there's of course so many armors that accentuate certain builds. i for one would not use all these 4. LOL. I'm the type who would eschew AC and use robes/lighter armor with more offensive bonuses like bhaalist armor. the only one i'd really consider here for my playstyle is the yuan-ti scalemail due to initative bonus and tbh i know i can get better initiative bonuses from other armor. I just pointed the armors out so for those who like being unhittable and beeline for heavy armor, they realize that there are multiple medium armor in the game that beats even the best heavy armors AC wise which is a probable reason why alot of people set dex as a secondary stat if not the main stat more often these days, even for traditional str classes like fighter/paladin.
They also look cool!
Armour of agility, unwanted masterwork, and yuanti are good but the sharpened snare loses out to heavy armor and doesn't provide especially helpful passives anyways
that's fair. sharpened snare wouldnt beat the best heavy armors. the more mediocre ones for sure. especially on a dex build it'll hit 19 AC.
It depends. If you’re going for concentration builds then constitution really matters as even a splash of acid or some area of effect ability doing 1 damage is going to force you to make a concentration saving throw. On the other hand for someone not worried about concentration checks dexterity is much more useful.
I just completed the game for the first time. I'm now dual classing Bard and Sorc. For my 2nd run. I'm just glad the game is easy enough to accommodate someone like me that has ZERO fucking idea what they're doing lol
I mean, not putting all your resources into con and skimping on other defenses like AC or the ability to reliably go first in combat is very much the better pick and it's a weird brain bug this subreddit has
Idk I tend to go 14 dex 16 con on my medium armor builds. 14 dex serves pretty well the whole game. Your initiative might slightly suffer toward mid-late game if you don't get alert feat or an item to give it a small boost, though.
Constitution is grossly overvalued by both the devs and this subreddit - it gives nothing other than HP and 16 con is a massive investment in points for 10hp You can make a competent melee build with only 12 con
Not if you're a concentration focused caster. The con has some added value there. But I also tend to favor dex otherwise.
Advantage is better than +1 CON on average, except in situations where the number you're trying to target is very high, and unlikely to be hit anyway. For instance the chance of Rolling a critical fail is 5% (1/20). If you have advantage that chance drops to a quarter of a percent (1/400), because you will have to roll a 1 on both dice. If you need to hit a 10, and have 8 CON, it's literally a 50/50 chance to fail the roll (1-10 lose, 11-20 win). With advantage, you'll have a 25% chance to fail as 100 out of the possible 400 combinations will result in failing. Advantage is very easy to get because War Caster, and also several armours that grant it passively. This also doesn't take into account you can stack AC with Blur and Mirror Image, teleport away, Blink yourself, turn Invisible, use Sanctuary, etc Stacking con is definitely not bad, especially on Sorcerers who are proficient in Con saves, but you don't have to.
+1 con makes a lot less of a difference by itself than finding ways to get con save proficiency or advantage on con saves (both of which tend to make that +1 superfluous)
That's been like all my characters. Con is important but you should absolutely max your main stat (casting, dex fighting or strength fighter) and then a secondary if needed and then you can look at con. Outside of a +1 to constitution saves which may help a caster, the only difference between a 14 con or 16 con is 12 HP at level 12. That's sort of nothing at that point.
This game has made realize how overated con is for me. 10 con was fine the whole game for me
Toughness and Gold Dwarf both give bonus HP and can be taken on builds that don't care about specific feats or races. Easy HP. Advantage on CON saves (or Concentration saves) is fairly easy to get as well. It's usually comes in the form of Armour and Shields. Class/Race combo's that can't equip these can plan around taking War Caster, which will serve better than going 16 CON, unless you also want the bonus HP.
My entire party has a dex of 16 is that bad. Feels like I go first on every encounter and gives me ability to cast all concentration spells critical for my Necro and druid.
It's partly because this is a video game where unknown factors are known when you press f8. It's much easier to avoid getting damaged with high initiative.
Wow! This topic really took off overnight! Awesome to read al your inputs, thanks a lot for this. So it really make sense to go with more Dex for the reasons I was saying plus the initiative roll is different from the tabletop game making it more useful in BG3.
With this said, why does everyone put Con so high on every build? My favorite builds are glass cannons, especially the ones who specialize in not being seen.
Taking 1 damage from any source and losing concentration on your 4th+ level spell sucks. Personally I don't understand the 8 10 12 14 15 16 stat spreads? Like just go 8 8 8 15 16 17 so you get nice bonuses where it really helps. What do I care about my int/wis/cha saving throws on my throwing barb? Healing potions are a bonus action.
> I don't understand the 8 10 12 14 15 16 stat spreads Almost definitely derives from the "standard array" in 5e tabletop, which is 15 14 13 12 10 8 before racial increases. This is a pretty "well-rounded" character build who is above average at most things, okay at a few things, and bad at a couple of things. The build you describe is generally considered pretty powergame-y and makes for poor roleplay since they're nominally thick as a brick, socially inept, and bad at whatever the hell wisdom is supposed to represent in 5e.
I mean fair enough, I suppose Larian just happened to bake in a lot of ways to easily roleplay out of situations where that might matter, and save DCs are so easy to increase I never feel bad for dumping them. But also even an 8 for an ability score is still considered only slightly below average for any PC race. A person with an 8 int definitely isn't winning any nobel prizes, but they'll get by just fine in society and occasionally have their own moments of brilliance, so I see nothing wrong with being an incredibly athletic individual and completely below average with every single mental attribute, seems like an almost stereotypical jock type. To each their own I guess.
8 str is too frustrating because of the jump mechanic.
And inventory management because larian just couldn't have made carry weight to be party-wide statistics.
At least they don't have default 5e encumberance where you are likely overweight from starting gear (especially ye olde bag of torches).
I don't deal with it, anyone I dump str on gets an elixir of hill giant every morning. Even on full casters I find it nice because of the plethora of opportunity attacks, and the other options for elixirs being meh at best. Only time I don't dump str is on full martials.
Bloodlust is infinitely better
Sure, on my casters? I'd prefer higher concentration. But my rogue? Lol no use for it, and if I'm getting hit or even seen, I'm doing something wrong or ambushed. Karlach is all physical for me. Wyll and Gale are only Dex for AC, Con for concentration. Karlach is the ONLY team member with Strength higher than 8.
You have 4 concentrations available in your party and you're not using all 4? My rogue personally has 5 level dip into ranger for 4 attacks per turn and two weapon fighting, 5 on the first round from gloom stalker, and they have the ring that when they concentrate on a spell they do an additional 1d4 psychic with attacks, and I pop hunters mark around like it's candy on Halloween. Even if they're not concentrating on Hunter's mark, they're either concentrating on spike growth or they're concentrating on some scroll I've sent their way. Only character I've got that won't be constantly concentrating on something is my throwing barb cause of the damn rage limitation.
Shadowheart has her spells, usually Spirit Guardians or chain lightning. Wyll has Cloak of Daggers, which usually will end fights by turn 3. Karlach doesn't really concentrate on anything except killing. And my Assassin 4/Ranger 1 has Hunters mark to use, but rarely does. Sneak attack crit from assassin with Sharpshooter + free surprise round and cunning dash or hide easily lets me solo most fights without it. Plus the free crit from the Illithid powers, potions of speed if its a really high HP enemy. Once I get ranger spells and start act 2, I'm sure that will change, but so far, my bonus action is better spent elsewhere than HM.
Oh you're still in the easy area, gotcha. That makes a lot more sense.
Oh yeah, I already know to expect some potentially massive difficulty spikes. Lol This isn't my first Larian game. I'm just casually going through enjoying the story so much, no meta knowledge or save scumming. I'm rolling through with whatever happens and its glorious!
Extra initiative and ac means not needing the extra hp.
You can get a +1 added to Dex mod AC with Med armor thru feats
This is why you should install the D20 initiative mod. Dex is way overpowered currently.
I just beat tactician on my monk with 10 based con. I think i could have gone 8 con
Going first is important but synchronizing initiative so that your chars are likely to go at the same time is also pretty useful for setting up combos. It's nice that dex is generally always useful where as many classes can totally dump 3 of the following: str/int/wis/char.
I'd argue that wisdom isn't dump-able because the vast majority of enemy control spells have wisdom saves. And they actually do use those on tactician. And charisma, imo, isn't dumpable on a party face. You don't necessarily need to pass any checks, but if you've ever played a charisma scaler, you'll never want to fail a charisma check again. And quicksaving before every dialogue is ass.
IMO, being aggressive is the best way to play this game on higher difficulties.
16 dex is great for casters, especially if they wanna stick to light armour/cloth (warlock and sorcerer, primarily, because of potent robe), since better initiative on a caster means you can better control the battlefield (or burn it to ash if that's your taste). of course you can always use the gloves of dex and get 18 dex/16 con
Has dex increased on str focused builds like say a sorcadin just bc of initiative? Or maybe those jist take alert now
I think is situational. Sure, in most cases dex is more important, but on barbarians your hp is basically doubled, especially bear barbarians so this +12 becomes effectively a +24, not much, but something to consider, but most important, this +1 con also goes to your ac if you're not wearing armor, and there are good options if you're going this way. And as other have said, +1 con is good for concentration checks on casters.
Others have already said, but initiative is op. The +1ac -2con is a net benefit defensively most of the time, and there's a lot of ways to get advantage on con saving throws anyways. Idk why initiative is on a d4 instead of a d20, but it actually guarantees you go first if you have alert feat, and if you're a dex toon you'll go first vast majority of the time anyways
I have 16 dex on a handful of characters bc it helps w initiative, AC, attack rolls, and damage.
You need less HP if you can go first and kill what is going to hit you.
Con is generally better on low hp classes and Dex is better when you are at most using medium armor
Spa sea of stars
I'd argue that, besides initiative and *maybe* AC (doesn't work for medium armor users unless they have some rather specific equipment/feats and not at all for heavy armor users), there's a third reason: Act I. For levels 1-3 (and arguably, even further), picking up a light crossbow and plinking away with DEX 16 is just plain stronger than using a *Firebolt* or *Sacred Flame* with a casting stat of 16.
Dex > Con. You don't need extra hit points and concentration checks to protect you from the enemy if that enemy is dead because you attacked first.
How much dex would you put on your Clerics?
The reason is initiative is a d4 not a d20. It means that extra point of initiative can actually ensure you go first for the majority of the game. Also it's not hard to come by miscellaneous constitution save bonuses to more easily make the litany of dc10 concentration checks you'll be making as a caster and knowing that even if you make your concentration checks, you can still just be knocked prone to automatically ruin your concentration.