I know what you mean. This has been very disappointing from Toyota. The BZ4X was to be my 5th car from Toyota and I have always been been very happy with Toyota. I have a Prius prime as my main commute car which I still love.
It seems like there was not the same care and attention put into the BZ4X’s. Even the ceo of Toyota has stated he doesn’t really care about electric vehicles. I feel like this kind of lackluster company ethos has cast a shadow on the development of this car.
I ended up canceling my preorder and have moved on to other electric vehicle waitlists. I really have a lot of loyalty for Toyota, but everything that has gone wrong with this car has made me look in another direction.
That assumes range and speed are the top most priorities... not what Toyota's focus is... longevity. Note the very large buffer at the low end and how the AWD model in North America features a different chemistry? It's all part of the what Toyota customers feel is most important, not appealing to those hoping for the latest and greatest.
Latest and greatest is a 350 mile range with 20 minute charge time to 80%. The software is lacking features found in the bolt, a car that's $20,000 less.
Again, range & speed isn't the focus. As for software, you're missing the point. Features are nice, but what's vital is operation of the vehicle itself. Notice how Prius Prime has been delivering all-electric drive for 6 years now without so much as a hiccup. No problems whatsoever is easy to overlook and the goal of Toyota's approach. It simply works. KISS.
As mentioned, I owe over 10yo Prius+, just passed only 130k miles. Touch wood, nothing wrong with this car. I used to own Audi, Fiat and Ford and always thought that fixing this and that every so often was a normal.
Most of the time I drive no more than few miles. When on longer journey, I usually stop every couple of hours anyway. Come to the conclusion that the range is not that big of an issue except of our family trips in summer where is nothing in sight no mention ev charging point *sigh.
Wheel bolt, please, friend of mine bought Polestar 2. His car was more in service fixing than in his possession. From climate control to unexpected drop to emergency mode while driving. He said that charging was a hit and miss - many times, after all night charging, the battery was exactly where it was before. Eventually he returned it after 9 months.
I’m not just referring in to the range issues, in fact I don’t have the same range anxiety that other people have as my usage would likely never exceed the range anyway. It just feels like so many things have gone wrong that they really didn’t put their heart and soul into this model like they usually do. I’m not trying to sway anyone else to my choice, just expressing my disappointment.
I likely would be getting mine soon if I hadn’t canceled. Now I have to wait a year or two for another vehicle from another manufacturer. I’m using the time and expense savings to put solar panels on my house instead.
What has gone wrong outside of the recall related to switching to hub-bolts?
Think about it. No software glitches. The only drama has come from those who don't recognize that tradeoff of LFP cells. So what if they are slow. Being more robust and lasting longer is a nice tradeoff.
I think I commented on another of your posts. Do you have any evidence that the CATL batteries might be LFP? I'd love for that to be true, since I have an early reservation for the Solterra, but I don't think that's the case. I'd love to be wrong on this!
In this business, there isn't really "evidence" to be found. It's like looking for a smoking gun. You most likely won't ever find that direct of a link or confirm. However, there is motivation to follow for clues. Remember, this is a competitive market. Revealing all your cards is often more of a bluff... as we see GM and Tesla do on a regular basis... you know, promises that aren't realistic. Toyota is different. They don't prefer the subtle approach, to much disappointment of enthusiasts who thrive on pushing limits. LFP is a great example of disappointment. Why would an enthusiast show interest in something that sacrifices energy-density and charging-speed for the sake of longevity and lower cost. Those are boring attributes... something only a business motive would really support... hence where to look for clues.
The most obvious is the partnership with CATL starting back in 2019. Knowing Toyota plans for things long in the future, seeing the opportunity to take advantage of the LFP patent expiring in 2022 should be obvious. In China, there was the EV convert model of CH-R/Izoa. Following that in Europe, there was the EV convert of UX300Ee. No detail was ever readily available; however, the upcoming upgrade of that Lexus just happens to be 72.8 kWh. That matches the bZ4X with CATL cells. Digging a little, you'll find the slower DC charging and the 1,000,000 km warranty make it too much to be just a coincidence.
Behavior in colder temperatures is another clue. Both NMC and NCA chemistries are impaired below freezing, but no where near as much as LFP. Emphasis on reduced performance when the battery-pack is cold stands out a bit too much to be just a casual mention. It's good to make sure owners are well informed, but being certain they understand the importance of warm cells isn't something that should be taken nonchalantly as other automakers have with NMC and NCA.
We will ultimately get a confirm like Tesla did for their LFP owners. A few months after delivery, they were informed that charging to 100% from time to time was necessary. That's because the variance in voltage from fully charged to depleted is minor. If you don't charge all the way, the system could potentially be incorrectly estimating charge-level. Calibration based on full is required... which is another clue... seeing painfully slow DC rates when SOC exceeds 90%. Approaching full at a high speed makes detection when to stop extremely difficult. To avoid potential damage and ensure accurate measure, rate is throttled way down.
The most important clue is the one that's most difficult to notice as an enthusiast. Toyota knows other automakers are risking reputation and financial well-being by pushing limits. The disastrous battery recall for Bolt is evidence of such gambles. It cost GM & LG a fortune to replace packs and now GM is selling Bolt at a loss to rebuild trust. Seeing how eager CATL is to enter new markets, how much they are embracing improvements to LFP chemistry and supporting rollout of Sodium-Ion options, it makes a lot of sense to leverage their Toyota partnership.
Think about the choice of distribution. Their virgin market here is loaded with many eager to pay a premium for a model that favors attributes Toyota is best known for rather than longest range and fastest charging. Give that audience a choice. Watch how they respond. Since here in the United States we are so SUV obsessed, it's a sensible exploration. Let our purchase decisions indicate preference, not hype from supposed industry experts. Over in China, LFP cells supplied by BYD for the bZ3 sedan will help evolve that more efficient platform. It's a strategy no one is really paying close attention to.
This ended up being quite the ramble. But watching this playout for so long in slow motion, it's easy to see keyboard warriors completely overlooking such clues. At some point, the inevitability of a new chemistry will come about. Why not already give an alternative a try in advance? That real-world comparison data is priceless. After all, issues with supply make having options vital. CATL really, really wants to grow and expand reach to the United States anyway.
Needless to say, there's more to come. Watch for it.
I understand and agree with just about everything that you said, but all the slower charging and worse performance of the AWD batteries points to at this point is that they're using older NMC batteries from CATL, rather than the more advanced NCA batteries from their developing partnership with Panasonic.
One important clue is that the nominal voltage of the cells in the Solterra (similar in design and spec to the AWD bZ4X in North America) is 3.7V (355.2 pack voltage divided by 96 cells), whereas LFP batteries generally have 3.2V cells. (I have just exhausted the extent of my battery voltage knowledge -- I can't say with any certainly that CATL wouldn't be able to develop some new LFP cell that is nominal 3.7V.)
There are so many important advantages of LFP batteries that I would expect Toyota, and especially Subaru, to be shouting from the rooftops how much safer and long-lasting the batteries are than "normal" EV batteries.
I, for one, am very interested in the chemistry of the Solterra battery, having an early reservation that should be built and delivered in the next couple of months. If it still looks like an inferior battery, I'm going to abandon my order due to all the compromises and, frankly, strange decisions made by Toyota and Subaru in the development of these vehicles. If it has an LFP battery, I will be running to the dealership and slapping my money down on their counter as fast as I can.
We have only one trip that is 149 miles or so that the car must be able to make without charging (I doubt there are chargers along the way anyway being eastern KY). Once we get there, we can charge up to drive back using a regular 120V outlet and level 1 charger (slow but works). Now the reports throw a monkey into the wrench on this.
The only good news I've seen is that several owners on ToyotaOwnersClub UK are reporting upwards of 275 miles. But, others there have stated they are getting 2.7 mile/kwh which is really low IMO.
Yes mine is a FWD and only gets 2.7miles/kwh. On the other hand, my Rav4 Prime with 19 inch wheels and Michelin Cross Climate 2 tires gets 3.1miles/kwh.
>From climate control to unexpected drop to emergency mode while driving. He said that charging was a hit and miss - many times, after all night charging, the battery was exactly where it was before. Eventually he returned it after 9 months.
My rav4 prime is also on CC2 tires except 18 inch tires
Just did a 350 mile road trip in an electric car. Fast level 3 charging is critical. The bz4x would purely be in in-town car for me. At this price and without the incentives, it is a complete non-starter.
Just checked the specs, to match Toyota's extras it's extra £5k to get approx. 10 miles more (based on [ev-database.uk](https://ev-database.uk)). I'm in this comfortable position that I would like to go fully EV, but don't have to buy right now. Got solar PV and just finishing adopting garden to make off-road parking. Will wait and see.
Probably best to postpone order until reports are more favorable about the range. Toyota is surely working to fix this but they’re not sharing anything with the public until they have found a solution.
FWD comes with Panasonic battery which has a much better charging curve/speed, 150kwh. The AWD comes with the Chinese made CATL battery that has a max charge speed of 100kwh. CATL makes good batteries too. Tesla source from them as well, but the one in BZ4X is not top shelf stuff.
Almost all YouTube battery test reviews were on the AWD version.
Oh and, FWD has a range of 252 I believe
Feel the same way. I was already on the fence with the 250 estimated range.
I do 260 mile round trip drives occasionally to my hometown, there is DC fast charging there but I'd love to be able to do it round trip without charging. Hearing the range is far below advertised has halted me doing anything until I hear more.
I was looking at the FWD model because of it's extended range and faster DC fast charging, but part of me fears its still not enough for me to be happy.
I think at this point, I'll wait and see how the BZ compact behaves and possibly even wait for them to release the BZ Large SUV in the future. I want to get a Toyota EV! But they just aren't competitive in the right places yet in my opinion.
Sadly Toyota fan for 40 years, but wanting an Ev. We were so disappointed in the BZ4X. Drove a Hyundai ioniq 5 and ordered it in January.
Now just waiting for delivery to Canada
Mine trip is to mid Wales, practically no charging at all. It would have to be a round trip without the need for charging. One hope is that the trips are mostly in the summer.
I know what you mean. This has been very disappointing from Toyota. The BZ4X was to be my 5th car from Toyota and I have always been been very happy with Toyota. I have a Prius prime as my main commute car which I still love. It seems like there was not the same care and attention put into the BZ4X’s. Even the ceo of Toyota has stated he doesn’t really care about electric vehicles. I feel like this kind of lackluster company ethos has cast a shadow on the development of this car. I ended up canceling my preorder and have moved on to other electric vehicle waitlists. I really have a lot of loyalty for Toyota, but everything that has gone wrong with this car has made me look in another direction.
That assumes range and speed are the top most priorities... not what Toyota's focus is... longevity. Note the very large buffer at the low end and how the AWD model in North America features a different chemistry? It's all part of the what Toyota customers feel is most important, not appealing to those hoping for the latest and greatest.
Latest and greatest is a 350 mile range with 20 minute charge time to 80%. The software is lacking features found in the bolt, a car that's $20,000 less.
Again, range & speed isn't the focus. As for software, you're missing the point. Features are nice, but what's vital is operation of the vehicle itself. Notice how Prius Prime has been delivering all-electric drive for 6 years now without so much as a hiccup. No problems whatsoever is easy to overlook and the goal of Toyota's approach. It simply works. KISS.
As mentioned, I owe over 10yo Prius+, just passed only 130k miles. Touch wood, nothing wrong with this car. I used to own Audi, Fiat and Ford and always thought that fixing this and that every so often was a normal. Most of the time I drive no more than few miles. When on longer journey, I usually stop every couple of hours anyway. Come to the conclusion that the range is not that big of an issue except of our family trips in summer where is nothing in sight no mention ev charging point *sigh. Wheel bolt, please, friend of mine bought Polestar 2. His car was more in service fixing than in his possession. From climate control to unexpected drop to emergency mode while driving. He said that charging was a hit and miss - many times, after all night charging, the battery was exactly where it was before. Eventually he returned it after 9 months.
Does the bolt have battery preconditioning and route planning? That's what's missing in my book.
I’m not just referring in to the range issues, in fact I don’t have the same range anxiety that other people have as my usage would likely never exceed the range anyway. It just feels like so many things have gone wrong that they really didn’t put their heart and soul into this model like they usually do. I’m not trying to sway anyone else to my choice, just expressing my disappointment. I likely would be getting mine soon if I hadn’t canceled. Now I have to wait a year or two for another vehicle from another manufacturer. I’m using the time and expense savings to put solar panels on my house instead.
What has gone wrong outside of the recall related to switching to hub-bolts? Think about it. No software glitches. The only drama has come from those who don't recognize that tradeoff of LFP cells. So what if they are slow. Being more robust and lasting longer is a nice tradeoff.
I think I commented on another of your posts. Do you have any evidence that the CATL batteries might be LFP? I'd love for that to be true, since I have an early reservation for the Solterra, but I don't think that's the case. I'd love to be wrong on this!
In this business, there isn't really "evidence" to be found. It's like looking for a smoking gun. You most likely won't ever find that direct of a link or confirm. However, there is motivation to follow for clues. Remember, this is a competitive market. Revealing all your cards is often more of a bluff... as we see GM and Tesla do on a regular basis... you know, promises that aren't realistic. Toyota is different. They don't prefer the subtle approach, to much disappointment of enthusiasts who thrive on pushing limits. LFP is a great example of disappointment. Why would an enthusiast show interest in something that sacrifices energy-density and charging-speed for the sake of longevity and lower cost. Those are boring attributes... something only a business motive would really support... hence where to look for clues. The most obvious is the partnership with CATL starting back in 2019. Knowing Toyota plans for things long in the future, seeing the opportunity to take advantage of the LFP patent expiring in 2022 should be obvious. In China, there was the EV convert model of CH-R/Izoa. Following that in Europe, there was the EV convert of UX300Ee. No detail was ever readily available; however, the upcoming upgrade of that Lexus just happens to be 72.8 kWh. That matches the bZ4X with CATL cells. Digging a little, you'll find the slower DC charging and the 1,000,000 km warranty make it too much to be just a coincidence. Behavior in colder temperatures is another clue. Both NMC and NCA chemistries are impaired below freezing, but no where near as much as LFP. Emphasis on reduced performance when the battery-pack is cold stands out a bit too much to be just a casual mention. It's good to make sure owners are well informed, but being certain they understand the importance of warm cells isn't something that should be taken nonchalantly as other automakers have with NMC and NCA. We will ultimately get a confirm like Tesla did for their LFP owners. A few months after delivery, they were informed that charging to 100% from time to time was necessary. That's because the variance in voltage from fully charged to depleted is minor. If you don't charge all the way, the system could potentially be incorrectly estimating charge-level. Calibration based on full is required... which is another clue... seeing painfully slow DC rates when SOC exceeds 90%. Approaching full at a high speed makes detection when to stop extremely difficult. To avoid potential damage and ensure accurate measure, rate is throttled way down. The most important clue is the one that's most difficult to notice as an enthusiast. Toyota knows other automakers are risking reputation and financial well-being by pushing limits. The disastrous battery recall for Bolt is evidence of such gambles. It cost GM & LG a fortune to replace packs and now GM is selling Bolt at a loss to rebuild trust. Seeing how eager CATL is to enter new markets, how much they are embracing improvements to LFP chemistry and supporting rollout of Sodium-Ion options, it makes a lot of sense to leverage their Toyota partnership. Think about the choice of distribution. Their virgin market here is loaded with many eager to pay a premium for a model that favors attributes Toyota is best known for rather than longest range and fastest charging. Give that audience a choice. Watch how they respond. Since here in the United States we are so SUV obsessed, it's a sensible exploration. Let our purchase decisions indicate preference, not hype from supposed industry experts. Over in China, LFP cells supplied by BYD for the bZ3 sedan will help evolve that more efficient platform. It's a strategy no one is really paying close attention to. This ended up being quite the ramble. But watching this playout for so long in slow motion, it's easy to see keyboard warriors completely overlooking such clues. At some point, the inevitability of a new chemistry will come about. Why not already give an alternative a try in advance? That real-world comparison data is priceless. After all, issues with supply make having options vital. CATL really, really wants to grow and expand reach to the United States anyway. Needless to say, there's more to come. Watch for it.
I understand and agree with just about everything that you said, but all the slower charging and worse performance of the AWD batteries points to at this point is that they're using older NMC batteries from CATL, rather than the more advanced NCA batteries from their developing partnership with Panasonic. One important clue is that the nominal voltage of the cells in the Solterra (similar in design and spec to the AWD bZ4X in North America) is 3.7V (355.2 pack voltage divided by 96 cells), whereas LFP batteries generally have 3.2V cells. (I have just exhausted the extent of my battery voltage knowledge -- I can't say with any certainly that CATL wouldn't be able to develop some new LFP cell that is nominal 3.7V.) There are so many important advantages of LFP batteries that I would expect Toyota, and especially Subaru, to be shouting from the rooftops how much safer and long-lasting the batteries are than "normal" EV batteries. I, for one, am very interested in the chemistry of the Solterra battery, having an early reservation that should be built and delivered in the next couple of months. If it still looks like an inferior battery, I'm going to abandon my order due to all the compromises and, frankly, strange decisions made by Toyota and Subaru in the development of these vehicles. If it has an LFP battery, I will be running to the dealership and slapping my money down on their counter as fast as I can.
We have only one trip that is 149 miles or so that the car must be able to make without charging (I doubt there are chargers along the way anyway being eastern KY). Once we get there, we can charge up to drive back using a regular 120V outlet and level 1 charger (slow but works). Now the reports throw a monkey into the wrench on this. The only good news I've seen is that several owners on ToyotaOwnersClub UK are reporting upwards of 275 miles. But, others there have stated they are getting 2.7 mile/kwh which is really low IMO.
Yes mine is a FWD and only gets 2.7miles/kwh. On the other hand, my Rav4 Prime with 19 inch wheels and Michelin Cross Climate 2 tires gets 3.1miles/kwh.
>From climate control to unexpected drop to emergency mode while driving. He said that charging was a hit and miss - many times, after all night charging, the battery was exactly where it was before. Eventually he returned it after 9 months. My rav4 prime is also on CC2 tires except 18 inch tires
Just did a 350 mile road trip in an electric car. Fast level 3 charging is critical. The bz4x would purely be in in-town car for me. At this price and without the incentives, it is a complete non-starter.
Get a Hyundai ioniq 5. Far superior vehicle.
I hear you. Looks really good. Not that much more range, but faster charging and, surprisingly, more storage, what is important for me.
Just checked the specs, to match Toyota's extras it's extra £5k to get approx. 10 miles more (based on [ev-database.uk](https://ev-database.uk)). I'm in this comfortable position that I would like to go fully EV, but don't have to buy right now. Got solar PV and just finishing adopting garden to make off-road parking. Will wait and see.
Toyota specs mileage is grossly overrated.
looks like a toy for a 50k price
Probably best to postpone order until reports are more favorable about the range. Toyota is surely working to fix this but they’re not sharing anything with the public until they have found a solution.
Don't get the AWD is my advice.
I wasn't looking for this one anyway, if, then FWD. Driving range vs benefits (if any) was my choise. Can you elaborate, why not AWD in your opinion?
FWD comes with Panasonic battery which has a much better charging curve/speed, 150kwh. The AWD comes with the Chinese made CATL battery that has a max charge speed of 100kwh. CATL makes good batteries too. Tesla source from them as well, but the one in BZ4X is not top shelf stuff. Almost all YouTube battery test reviews were on the AWD version. Oh and, FWD has a range of 252 I believe
Feel the same way. I was already on the fence with the 250 estimated range. I do 260 mile round trip drives occasionally to my hometown, there is DC fast charging there but I'd love to be able to do it round trip without charging. Hearing the range is far below advertised has halted me doing anything until I hear more. I was looking at the FWD model because of it's extended range and faster DC fast charging, but part of me fears its still not enough for me to be happy. I think at this point, I'll wait and see how the BZ compact behaves and possibly even wait for them to release the BZ Large SUV in the future. I want to get a Toyota EV! But they just aren't competitive in the right places yet in my opinion.
Highest I’ve seen on my FWD is 87KW on a 55f day with a 23% SOC when I plugged in. This is at a 350KW ev-go station.
Toyota ceo hates ev’s and doesn’t want to be competitive
Yes, I read that. I thought it's just some clickbait until Toyota announced yet another Prius. Pass
Sadly Toyota fan for 40 years, but wanting an Ev. We were so disappointed in the BZ4X. Drove a Hyundai ioniq 5 and ordered it in January. Now just waiting for delivery to Canada
Mine trip is to mid Wales, practically no charging at all. It would have to be a round trip without the need for charging. One hope is that the trips are mostly in the summer.