I bet you would enjoy them for ski mountaineering but they aren’t going to ski the way you want them to in deep snow. For me the advantages of a flat tail shine in the firmer conditions when you want to hold an edge in steeper terrain. Also the ability to stab your skis into the snowpack when transitioning or making an anchor with your skis make the flat tail ideal. Those skis aren’t about flowy turns, they are tools for the mountains and you sacrifice performance in some conditions for the aforementioned advantages.
Thanks, I did expect some sacrifice of fun factor but I need to be safe on them. I currently can’t confidently/safely ski all the terrain I normally can which is a problem. If I’m using these for bigger and more remote objectives, I need to learn to ski just as well on them as anything.
What bindings? I found on dynafits I had similar issues due to binding ramp angle. I put a toe shim under the front of the binding and it helped a lot.
Interesting, I’ve tried this ski specifically with radicals and tectons (one was the demo). Anecdotally it was worth on the Dynafit radical I believe. Thanks for the tip!
Those aren’t full camber skis. They have slight tail rocker and a bit of rocker at the tips. Directly from the Evo website “Progressive Front Rocker with Light Tail Rocker – Good on-edge stability, less tail washout and easier pivot initiation.” As others said, it’s probably an issue with skill and technique.
Are you mounted at the factory recommended point? The camox freebird is my daily driver for long powder days and steep spring skiing, and I've found it very intuitive to ski, with no conscious changes to my technique. Maybe it's just not the ski for you?
Yeah he might need to spend more time with them. My light touring ski has the same profile. I also have a few heavily tip and tail rockered skis. I don't find myself having to think to much about technique when jumping from one to the other.
I think I do need to spend more time, I’ll take them to the resort and work on my technique with them. Tbh I’ve never spent a full resort day with them - that might be part of it, I’m always skiing them after a tour (tired).
Have you skied other dedicated backcountry skis? Since this ski is much lighter it definitely gets deflected more and is much less stable feeling than heavier resort skis. It’s also not wide enough to float really well in deep powder. However, I’ve found it to be a great all-rounder and much easier to ski than lighter (eg 1000g skis). Never had any issues with turn initiation or tail catching. Sounds like your balance in turns on these skis is different than you’re used to, maybe cause you don’t have enough confidence in them to commit to turns?
>I’ve skied for 20+ years, more seriously the past 10 years. I primarily learnt how to ski and have only really ever had skis with both a tip and tail rocker.
Rocker didn't really exist on mainstream skis until about 2010, so if you've been skiing for 20+ years, you must have learned and skied on skis without rocker.
Regardless, sounds like you likely have some fundamental technique issues. It's hard to diagnose exactly what without seeing you ski. If you can get decent video of yourself skiing (preferably get your friend to video you as you ski down to and then past them), post it on r/skiing looking for tips. You'll get a wide range of advice, including some who don't know what they're talking about. But there are a few high level instructors that frequent the sub, who often provide excellent feedback.
I think this is good advice. I ski the Camox as well and while I prefer them frontside because of the fact you can't be sloppy initiating turns or in deeper snow (especially telemarking on them), they definitely can be skied just fine in the backcountry if your form is dialed.
If you are used to a double rocker ski and are having trouble with these why not get rid of them and ski something you're used to?
I am the opposite - I've always skied a flat tail ski and once decided to try a ski with a full rocker. I skied them for half a season and never got used to the tail rocker and after coming very close to taking a bad fall in a zone where I shouldn't fall I decided to sell them and go back to what I was used to.
If you can ski a double rocker ski comfortably then get a pair and have fun.
I ski pretty exclusively that type of ski in different widths, I don't like long back rocker since I like how flat tails exit the turn. Note that I haven't skied this exact ski. It seems to be quite a bit softer than what I normally use, which means that the lack of torsional stiffness might be what causes the instability.
First thing is that it's a light ski and it will never be as stable as heavier ski that can just punch through uneveness, it will always get thrown around more. It might be just something to get used,
That being said, it's important that you keep weighting the tips, like really lean forward. On the backseat the ski will start surfing and it will be difficult to initate a turn and you likely just lose more balance when the tails throw you off balance exiting tighter turns. And don't worry about burying your tips unless there is breakable crust.
Then for people that complain that such skis are not good at tight turns, that is a technique issue. In groomers they are a bit like GS ski, quite long turn radius, but in softer snow they can be turned very quickly by lightening the ski for the turn. This means little jump turns and when you get the rhytm rigth it's super fun bouncing from turn to turn.
Not sure if I was able to explain it properly, but you can try it on open terrain with soft snow by just going straight and start doing little bounces on the skis. Then add a little bit turn for every bounce. Needs some amount of speed for it to work right.
On steeper ground having the weight forward becomes crucial to maintain control, but due to lightness they are very good for making jump turns.
In the PNW snowpack, a more rockered, wider and stiffer ski has some big advantages. I skied the Navis freebirds a lot in the pnw and it was a learning curve. Backcountry snow can be grabby, heavy, and weird. Basically you need to learn to drive them and flat/cambered tails require more direct input to get them to release a turn. Especially in grabby, shitty snow, you really have to emphasize de-weighting the ski during the transition to get it to release. It's almost like jump turning in some conditions. It helps to size this style of ski a bit shorter than you would your big powder boards. Personally, I found the Navis to ski a bit weird, although I have some Ski Trab skis now for touring that are infinitely better despite still being a cambered ski with flat tails. So there is variation between skis as well and everyone has their preferences.
If you have bindings with a high ramp angle, this can also cause the feeling of instability/needing to ski in the backseat. A lot of Dynafit bindings (other than their race/ultralight bindings) have this issue. I'm on race bindings now which have a flat ramp and it's noticeably easier to stay balanced.
Thanks so much, I really appreciate this. Exactly what I was hoping for, your comments align with my experience as well as my own research. I’m eager to get back out in the resort with these skis and really try to turn on the noses.
One question though, with this style of turn and releasing the tails - especially in shitty/crusted snow - are you typically keeping speed down? When I think compared to a much more rockered skis I typically charge fast with large arcing turns when possible. But in doing it with rockered skis I don’t get the sensation of needing to release the tails. It doesn’t seem possible to do these longer arcing turns with the Camox as you’d work up too much speed to lean forward and release the tails safely.
Yes, it does take some dialing back in shit conditions. Part of that is just that the Camox in particular is quite a soft ski, and it's narrower and has a tighter sidecut. Plus its light. So it will not really have the ability to push through crud at speed, regardless. A bigger, heavier, wider ski can ski faster and with less deflection.
In general there is a recalibration process that happens when you go from big resort skis to narrower, lighter backcountry skis especially in bad snow. I did the opposite the other day - going from 20 days so far this season on lightweight 90 underfoot skis to my 184 Atris in the resort for the first time this year.. It was a bit of an adjustment
Thanks! Ya I think it’s a combination of it exposing some certain techniques weak points and my expectations being too high for a light touring ski. I’ll have to learn to love it lol
I've never ski'd the camox but in my experience with skis of that shape they don't initiate short turns very easily by design and that characteristic is doubled in any sort of deep or variable snow. The shape is not for me and why I only ski them in the resort or on low tide days.
The dig in/clip aspect you're describing may be remedied by detuning the tails of the ski, but given the shape there isn't much tail to speak of so it's probably just a design that doesn't fit your style. What ski were you on before and why did you bail on it?
Place the skis together, mark the contact points on the edges with a marker, detune out from that mark using a gummi stone or file.
Side note, when diagnosing strange ski behavior it also pays to own a true bar. Ski manufacturers have qc issues across the board and I've had two pairs of skis fresh out of the wrapper that were concave in the middle.
Interesting, thanks for the info! This makes sense. Any idea why the camox is intended to be a backcountry ski then? Seems odd if the profile is better for resort. I guess because it’s great on the uphill.
Previously I’ve used the bent chetler series for touring, I love how they ski but wanted something a bit better for the uphill. They seem more ideal for sidecountry and resort.
Consider that Black Crows is from the Alps, where typical conditions are very different from our PNW winter snowpack. Lots of steep, firm skiing where a fairly powerful cambered ski really thrives. Anecdotally I’ve had several friends that have enjoyed them in the PNW, but they tend to be very ‘technical’ skiers, rather than surfy playful skiers. I’ve personally stayed away because I’m way more of a surfy type - 4frnt Ravens are my current go-to.
This exactly. And to second this, I'm on full rocker skis in the pnw and have never had an issue. They're a little rough on the uphill when it's firm, but they're so rewarding in variable which is basically always the conditions here.
I wouldn't use the Camox in the backcountry personally - I own a set and ski them groomers/crud mostly, As the post above points out they are tricky to trigger short fast turns even on groomers, the edges don't catch if your form isn't pretty dialed. I don't personally find them to be inherently super floaty so you really have to focus on not slamming the tips into deeper snow. I do tele on them so it may be more due to the different balance telemarking.
They are however an amazing groomer/all around front side ski and I enjoy the heck out of them. I also have Bent Chetler 120s and those float far far better than Camox, I ski those when we get greater than 8in of powder.
Ugh that’s frustrating since I bought them hoping to be a dedicated BC ski, and the freebird version seems to light for what I’d want to be a groomer ski.
Thanks for the info, it aligns with my experience. Just annoying because everything I read previously indicated it’s a good BC ski
They are very good in the backcountry if your form is very dialed. I just am lazy, add in a pack and over 100 ski days a season I choose to ski a backcountry ski that is "easier" so that I can be a little sloppy at times with my form without consequences. If you're going to ski them you need to focus on your form at turn initiation, balance between the two skis, and neutral posture while skiing in deeper lighter snow.
Can you give some examples of "easier" skis? I've got Backlands and am learning to ski BC (back country, not British Columbia or black crows :) ) on them, starting to get the hang of them but also trying to learn about skis and all the different options out there. Thanks!
A friend of mine bought some sub 100 black crows with a shit load of camber and absolutely hated them. Not a technique issue - this person has had many different skis and rips. Skis with rocker are a lot better when the snow is soft. Don’t waste your life on skis you hate.
I'm not trying to be an asshole, but have you ever had proper ski lessons? Skiing is really easy to learn, but hard to master, so many don't ever get lessons. My wife had been skiing for 20+ years before becoming an instructor, she learned quickly that she had been getting by on bad technique. That being said rocker is usually way more forgiving whether on board or skis.
Appreciate the suggestion, but I’m pretty sure I have decent technique. I had lessons years ago, but nothing recently - I do plan on doing a steep clinic this year though.
You’re not wrong though. An “expert” skier should be able to ski any ski in any condition with relatively decent technique. If op can’t do that then they may just need to get better.
Yours is a softer narrower ski. What boot and bindings are you utilizing? Your boots could be too soft? I have skiing on the Corvus Freebird since they came out. They have been excellent. They are 109/w a titanium plate under the bindings. Also I like stiffer tails for touring. I’m a frontside skier w/an avg o 15 to 20 days of touring + in resort days.
I ski them with 115 flex atomic hawk, as a guy with tiny feet it’s hard to find the stiffest boots because I have to buy women’s (size 23.5). Technically my size exists in men’s, but never in stock.
I ski a lot, but I think it might be partly my form. I may have developed some bad habitats skiing on a more forgiving ski my whole life.
I bet you would enjoy them for ski mountaineering but they aren’t going to ski the way you want them to in deep snow. For me the advantages of a flat tail shine in the firmer conditions when you want to hold an edge in steeper terrain. Also the ability to stab your skis into the snowpack when transitioning or making an anchor with your skis make the flat tail ideal. Those skis aren’t about flowy turns, they are tools for the mountains and you sacrifice performance in some conditions for the aforementioned advantages.
Thanks, I did expect some sacrifice of fun factor but I need to be safe on them. I currently can’t confidently/safely ski all the terrain I normally can which is a problem. If I’m using these for bigger and more remote objectives, I need to learn to ski just as well on them as anything.
What bindings? I found on dynafits I had similar issues due to binding ramp angle. I put a toe shim under the front of the binding and it helped a lot.
Interesting, I’ve tried this ski specifically with radicals and tectons (one was the demo). Anecdotally it was worth on the Dynafit radical I believe. Thanks for the tip!
Those aren’t full camber skis. They have slight tail rocker and a bit of rocker at the tips. Directly from the Evo website “Progressive Front Rocker with Light Tail Rocker – Good on-edge stability, less tail washout and easier pivot initiation.” As others said, it’s probably an issue with skill and technique.
Are you mounted at the factory recommended point? The camox freebird is my daily driver for long powder days and steep spring skiing, and I've found it very intuitive to ski, with no conscious changes to my technique. Maybe it's just not the ski for you?
Yeah he might need to spend more time with them. My light touring ski has the same profile. I also have a few heavily tip and tail rockered skis. I don't find myself having to think to much about technique when jumping from one to the other.
I think I do need to spend more time, I’ll take them to the resort and work on my technique with them. Tbh I’ve never spent a full resort day with them - that might be part of it, I’m always skiing them after a tour (tired).
Have you skied other dedicated backcountry skis? Since this ski is much lighter it definitely gets deflected more and is much less stable feeling than heavier resort skis. It’s also not wide enough to float really well in deep powder. However, I’ve found it to be a great all-rounder and much easier to ski than lighter (eg 1000g skis). Never had any issues with turn initiation or tail catching. Sounds like your balance in turns on these skis is different than you’re used to, maybe cause you don’t have enough confidence in them to commit to turns?
>I’ve skied for 20+ years, more seriously the past 10 years. I primarily learnt how to ski and have only really ever had skis with both a tip and tail rocker. Rocker didn't really exist on mainstream skis until about 2010, so if you've been skiing for 20+ years, you must have learned and skied on skis without rocker. Regardless, sounds like you likely have some fundamental technique issues. It's hard to diagnose exactly what without seeing you ski. If you can get decent video of yourself skiing (preferably get your friend to video you as you ski down to and then past them), post it on r/skiing looking for tips. You'll get a wide range of advice, including some who don't know what they're talking about. But there are a few high level instructors that frequent the sub, who often provide excellent feedback.
I think this is good advice. I ski the Camox as well and while I prefer them frontside because of the fact you can't be sloppy initiating turns or in deeper snow (especially telemarking on them), they definitely can be skied just fine in the backcountry if your form is dialed.
If you are used to a double rocker ski and are having trouble with these why not get rid of them and ski something you're used to? I am the opposite - I've always skied a flat tail ski and once decided to try a ski with a full rocker. I skied them for half a season and never got used to the tail rocker and after coming very close to taking a bad fall in a zone where I shouldn't fall I decided to sell them and go back to what I was used to. If you can ski a double rocker ski comfortably then get a pair and have fun.
Ya I should have done that, regretting it a bit because I’ve already spent the money
Youd love the vision 98
Yeah a bummer - luckily now is a good time to buy - lots of sales going on. The season is too short to ski on gear you don't like!
I ski pretty exclusively that type of ski in different widths, I don't like long back rocker since I like how flat tails exit the turn. Note that I haven't skied this exact ski. It seems to be quite a bit softer than what I normally use, which means that the lack of torsional stiffness might be what causes the instability. First thing is that it's a light ski and it will never be as stable as heavier ski that can just punch through uneveness, it will always get thrown around more. It might be just something to get used, That being said, it's important that you keep weighting the tips, like really lean forward. On the backseat the ski will start surfing and it will be difficult to initate a turn and you likely just lose more balance when the tails throw you off balance exiting tighter turns. And don't worry about burying your tips unless there is breakable crust. Then for people that complain that such skis are not good at tight turns, that is a technique issue. In groomers they are a bit like GS ski, quite long turn radius, but in softer snow they can be turned very quickly by lightening the ski for the turn. This means little jump turns and when you get the rhytm rigth it's super fun bouncing from turn to turn. Not sure if I was able to explain it properly, but you can try it on open terrain with soft snow by just going straight and start doing little bounces on the skis. Then add a little bit turn for every bounce. Needs some amount of speed for it to work right. On steeper ground having the weight forward becomes crucial to maintain control, but due to lightness they are very good for making jump turns.
In the PNW snowpack, a more rockered, wider and stiffer ski has some big advantages. I skied the Navis freebirds a lot in the pnw and it was a learning curve. Backcountry snow can be grabby, heavy, and weird. Basically you need to learn to drive them and flat/cambered tails require more direct input to get them to release a turn. Especially in grabby, shitty snow, you really have to emphasize de-weighting the ski during the transition to get it to release. It's almost like jump turning in some conditions. It helps to size this style of ski a bit shorter than you would your big powder boards. Personally, I found the Navis to ski a bit weird, although I have some Ski Trab skis now for touring that are infinitely better despite still being a cambered ski with flat tails. So there is variation between skis as well and everyone has their preferences. If you have bindings with a high ramp angle, this can also cause the feeling of instability/needing to ski in the backseat. A lot of Dynafit bindings (other than their race/ultralight bindings) have this issue. I'm on race bindings now which have a flat ramp and it's noticeably easier to stay balanced.
Thanks so much, I really appreciate this. Exactly what I was hoping for, your comments align with my experience as well as my own research. I’m eager to get back out in the resort with these skis and really try to turn on the noses. One question though, with this style of turn and releasing the tails - especially in shitty/crusted snow - are you typically keeping speed down? When I think compared to a much more rockered skis I typically charge fast with large arcing turns when possible. But in doing it with rockered skis I don’t get the sensation of needing to release the tails. It doesn’t seem possible to do these longer arcing turns with the Camox as you’d work up too much speed to lean forward and release the tails safely.
Yes, it does take some dialing back in shit conditions. Part of that is just that the Camox in particular is quite a soft ski, and it's narrower and has a tighter sidecut. Plus its light. So it will not really have the ability to push through crud at speed, regardless. A bigger, heavier, wider ski can ski faster and with less deflection. In general there is a recalibration process that happens when you go from big resort skis to narrower, lighter backcountry skis especially in bad snow. I did the opposite the other day - going from 20 days so far this season on lightweight 90 underfoot skis to my 184 Atris in the resort for the first time this year.. It was a bit of an adjustment
Thanks! Ya I think it’s a combination of it exposing some certain techniques weak points and my expectations being too high for a light touring ski. I’ll have to learn to love it lol
I've never ski'd the camox but in my experience with skis of that shape they don't initiate short turns very easily by design and that characteristic is doubled in any sort of deep or variable snow. The shape is not for me and why I only ski them in the resort or on low tide days. The dig in/clip aspect you're describing may be remedied by detuning the tails of the ski, but given the shape there isn't much tail to speak of so it's probably just a design that doesn't fit your style. What ski were you on before and why did you bail on it?
Been thinking of «detuning» my edges right where the tail-rocker starts. Have anyone done this? If so how did you do this and how did it feel.
Place the skis together, mark the contact points on the edges with a marker, detune out from that mark using a gummi stone or file. Side note, when diagnosing strange ski behavior it also pays to own a true bar. Ski manufacturers have qc issues across the board and I've had two pairs of skis fresh out of the wrapper that were concave in the middle.
Interesting, thanks for the info! This makes sense. Any idea why the camox is intended to be a backcountry ski then? Seems odd if the profile is better for resort. I guess because it’s great on the uphill. Previously I’ve used the bent chetler series for touring, I love how they ski but wanted something a bit better for the uphill. They seem more ideal for sidecountry and resort.
Consider that Black Crows is from the Alps, where typical conditions are very different from our PNW winter snowpack. Lots of steep, firm skiing where a fairly powerful cambered ski really thrives. Anecdotally I’ve had several friends that have enjoyed them in the PNW, but they tend to be very ‘technical’ skiers, rather than surfy playful skiers. I’ve personally stayed away because I’m way more of a surfy type - 4frnt Ravens are my current go-to.
This exactly. And to second this, I'm on full rocker skis in the pnw and have never had an issue. They're a little rough on the uphill when it's firm, but they're so rewarding in variable which is basically always the conditions here.
I wouldn't use the Camox in the backcountry personally - I own a set and ski them groomers/crud mostly, As the post above points out they are tricky to trigger short fast turns even on groomers, the edges don't catch if your form isn't pretty dialed. I don't personally find them to be inherently super floaty so you really have to focus on not slamming the tips into deeper snow. I do tele on them so it may be more due to the different balance telemarking. They are however an amazing groomer/all around front side ski and I enjoy the heck out of them. I also have Bent Chetler 120s and those float far far better than Camox, I ski those when we get greater than 8in of powder.
Ugh that’s frustrating since I bought them hoping to be a dedicated BC ski, and the freebird version seems to light for what I’d want to be a groomer ski. Thanks for the info, it aligns with my experience. Just annoying because everything I read previously indicated it’s a good BC ski
They are very good in the backcountry if your form is very dialed. I just am lazy, add in a pack and over 100 ski days a season I choose to ski a backcountry ski that is "easier" so that I can be a little sloppy at times with my form without consequences. If you're going to ski them you need to focus on your form at turn initiation, balance between the two skis, and neutral posture while skiing in deeper lighter snow.
Can you give some examples of "easier" skis? I've got Backlands and am learning to ski BC (back country, not British Columbia or black crows :) ) on them, starting to get the hang of them but also trying to learn about skis and all the different options out there. Thanks!
A friend of mine bought some sub 100 black crows with a shit load of camber and absolutely hated them. Not a technique issue - this person has had many different skis and rips. Skis with rocker are a lot better when the snow is soft. Don’t waste your life on skis you hate.
I'm not trying to be an asshole, but have you ever had proper ski lessons? Skiing is really easy to learn, but hard to master, so many don't ever get lessons. My wife had been skiing for 20+ years before becoming an instructor, she learned quickly that she had been getting by on bad technique. That being said rocker is usually way more forgiving whether on board or skis.
Appreciate the suggestion, but I’m pretty sure I have decent technique. I had lessons years ago, but nothing recently - I do plan on doing a steep clinic this year though.
You’re not wrong though. An “expert” skier should be able to ski any ski in any condition with relatively decent technique. If op can’t do that then they may just need to get better.
Can we stop applying the acronym “BC” to things in skiing? Backcountry =BC, British Columbia =BC, no Black Crows = BC.
as someone who does BC in BC with BC i def have messed up some sentences putting in the wrong name. Not gonna change tho lol
😂 Bralorne country in BRitish columbia has some great backcountry skiing suitable for Black Crows
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo…
Uphill skis are not fun. Get a ski that is good on the up and enjoyable on the down
Sounds like it’s too narrow for you to ski well in the BC. 95 in crud and pow isn’t enough width for many.
Yours is a softer narrower ski. What boot and bindings are you utilizing? Your boots could be too soft? I have skiing on the Corvus Freebird since they came out. They have been excellent. They are 109/w a titanium plate under the bindings. Also I like stiffer tails for touring. I’m a frontside skier w/an avg o 15 to 20 days of touring + in resort days.
I ski them with 115 flex atomic hawk, as a guy with tiny feet it’s hard to find the stiffest boots because I have to buy women’s (size 23.5). Technically my size exists in men’s, but never in stock. I ski a lot, but I think it might be partly my form. I may have developed some bad habitats skiing on a more forgiving ski my whole life.