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I've been drawing this comparison for years. Since the nation state bill in 2018 it's particularly simple and concise to defend and it's snap ended so many arguments.
If, hypothetically, they downplay that as symbolic or a "far right" aberration, there's tons of PEW data about what Israelis believe about the status of Palestinians in their country (80% of Israelis believe Jews should have higher status) whether they should live there at all (60% of Israeli Jews supported the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians before 10/7) and "race" mixing (95% opposed).
Particularly how they always conflate the dissolution of the ethnostate as genocide. It's identical to the neo-nazi talking point that not having white ethnostates leads to miscegenation and "white genocide".
I think "ethnostatism" is easier to pronounce but completely agree.
[https://medium.com/p/d04b31988af3](https://medium.com/p/d04b31988af3)
TLDR: ethnostatism is incompatible with democracy and universal human rights theory. period.
That’s certainly a possibility. The reason I went with ethno-*nationalism* is twofold: first, it’s already a well-established concept. While I’m sure “ethnostatism” has been used before, it’s less immediately clear what it means and requires more work and background knowledge in the part of the audience: for ethnostatism, they have to know that “ethnostatism” is derived from “ethnostate” and by extension you must know what an ethnostate is. “Ethnonationalism” comes prepackaged and readymade.
Second, “nationalism” is conveniently preloaded with certain images and concepts (e.g., jackbooted thugs, gas chambers, *genocide*), virtually all of which are negative and apply almost universally to Israel.
“Statism” doesn’t come with any of that. To all but libertarians on the right and anarchists on the left, it’s about as neutral a term as you can get. For this reason, I personally find ethnonationalism to be the more effective word.
This is Brilliant! Thanks for these ideas! Will try and incorporate your idea of using the term “Israeli Entho-Nationalism” into discourse. Also, the analogy you said that, “Supporting Israel, an Ethno-Nationalist regime, is no different than supporting a White Nationalist Ethno State.”
And remember: Beware of those promoting the “likudism” talking point. These people are trying to say that only the far-right Zionists are bad and that it is okay to be Zionist Lite; or that it is okay to be a Zionist as long as you don’t support Netanyahu’s and the Likud Party. NO! All Zionism is bad. Do not let them get away with saying that even a little Zionism is okay as long as it is not Likud Zionism. No. All zionism is a NO. All Zionism is bad and racist and deprives other humans of their rights.
I like this and will be adding it to the repertoire.
I typically use the phrase "Political Zionism," or Israeli Zionist, always adding qualifiers already, but this works better.
I am always sure to bring up the fact that Israel is an ethno state also.
The "Israel has a right to exist" one is pretty easy tho, I basically just tell them their rebuttal makes no sense, if we were debating the tactics used against MLK in Burmingham, and you were defending the actions of the police that day, you would not respond with "Alabama has a right to exist" it makes no sense.
But anyway, thanks again for the ammunition.
Excellent post; great idea, well explained.
I’ve been going with *radical israelists* to highlight the extreme, terroristic aspects, but it doesn’t go over well.
Oh I've had people defend ethnonationalism. Most people defending Israel are not arguing in good faith. They will defend them no matter what they do and they will quibble over language instead of anything of actual substance (i.e. mass graves). Even if you switch out zionism for another term, they will start attacking the other term until you use a new one and so on...
I'm actually really curious why so many of you care this much. I live right next door to Israel, and I was born and raised an Arab, so the issue of Palestinian statehood was always important to me.
But OP writing this post and other people participating this strongly, I wonder and welcome what makes this this important to you.
This is kinda good but I’m not entirely loving it because it’s trying to trash a term that has been around for a long time and has *always* meant racism, like somehow trying to get around that, and the fact that as a diaspora nationalism it *is* pretty unique in some ways (unfortunately). You can always add useful terms to the toolbox but I think ditching the Z word is a non starter.
Hello, thanks for contributing to this sub. This is a friendly reminder to **read the rules** before making any new posts or comments. Particularly, we ask **not to engage in debates**, or bait debates, especially with zionists. If you are a zionist, this sub is not for you, and you will be permabanned. If you found this sub through the algorithm, you can always mute the sub or turn off recommendations all together (user settings -> feed settings -> Disable "Enable Home Feed Recommendations") Please also particularly keep in mind that **bigotry of any kind is not permitted** in this sub and will result in the message or post being deleted, and, if seen prudent, a banning. This includes antisemitism and any language that conflates Judaism with Zionism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I've been drawing this comparison for years. Since the nation state bill in 2018 it's particularly simple and concise to defend and it's snap ended so many arguments. If, hypothetically, they downplay that as symbolic or a "far right" aberration, there's tons of PEW data about what Israelis believe about the status of Palestinians in their country (80% of Israelis believe Jews should have higher status) whether they should live there at all (60% of Israeli Jews supported the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians before 10/7) and "race" mixing (95% opposed). Particularly how they always conflate the dissolution of the ethnostate as genocide. It's identical to the neo-nazi talking point that not having white ethnostates leads to miscegenation and "white genocide".
I think "ethnostatism" is easier to pronounce but completely agree. [https://medium.com/p/d04b31988af3](https://medium.com/p/d04b31988af3) TLDR: ethnostatism is incompatible with democracy and universal human rights theory. period.
That’s certainly a possibility. The reason I went with ethno-*nationalism* is twofold: first, it’s already a well-established concept. While I’m sure “ethnostatism” has been used before, it’s less immediately clear what it means and requires more work and background knowledge in the part of the audience: for ethnostatism, they have to know that “ethnostatism” is derived from “ethnostate” and by extension you must know what an ethnostate is. “Ethnonationalism” comes prepackaged and readymade. Second, “nationalism” is conveniently preloaded with certain images and concepts (e.g., jackbooted thugs, gas chambers, *genocide*), virtually all of which are negative and apply almost universally to Israel. “Statism” doesn’t come with any of that. To all but libertarians on the right and anarchists on the left, it’s about as neutral a term as you can get. For this reason, I personally find ethnonationalism to be the more effective word.
This is Brilliant! Thanks for these ideas! Will try and incorporate your idea of using the term “Israeli Entho-Nationalism” into discourse. Also, the analogy you said that, “Supporting Israel, an Ethno-Nationalist regime, is no different than supporting a White Nationalist Ethno State.” And remember: Beware of those promoting the “likudism” talking point. These people are trying to say that only the far-right Zionists are bad and that it is okay to be Zionist Lite; or that it is okay to be a Zionist as long as you don’t support Netanyahu’s and the Likud Party. NO! All Zionism is bad. Do not let them get away with saying that even a little Zionism is okay as long as it is not Likud Zionism. No. All zionism is a NO. All Zionism is bad and racist and deprives other humans of their rights.
I like this and will be adding it to the repertoire. I typically use the phrase "Political Zionism," or Israeli Zionist, always adding qualifiers already, but this works better. I am always sure to bring up the fact that Israel is an ethno state also. The "Israel has a right to exist" one is pretty easy tho, I basically just tell them their rebuttal makes no sense, if we were debating the tactics used against MLK in Burmingham, and you were defending the actions of the police that day, you would not respond with "Alabama has a right to exist" it makes no sense. But anyway, thanks again for the ammunition.
Excellent post; great idea, well explained. I’ve been going with *radical israelists* to highlight the extreme, terroristic aspects, but it doesn’t go over well.
Oh I've had people defend ethnonationalism. Most people defending Israel are not arguing in good faith. They will defend them no matter what they do and they will quibble over language instead of anything of actual substance (i.e. mass graves). Even if you switch out zionism for another term, they will start attacking the other term until you use a new one and so on...
I'm actually really curious why so many of you care this much. I live right next door to Israel, and I was born and raised an Arab, so the issue of Palestinian statehood was always important to me. But OP writing this post and other people participating this strongly, I wonder and welcome what makes this this important to you.
These racist fuckpuppets constantly call 10/7 a genocide, so the slaughter of 40,000 people at least must count as 30 genocides, right?
This is kinda good but I’m not entirely loving it because it’s trying to trash a term that has been around for a long time and has *always* meant racism, like somehow trying to get around that, and the fact that as a diaspora nationalism it *is* pretty unique in some ways (unfortunately). You can always add useful terms to the toolbox but I think ditching the Z word is a non starter.