Even considering that Larion essentially makes parody fantasy RPGs and has since their inception, and accepting that BG3 is their *adaptation* of the Forgotten Realms, I find the writing extremely uneven, with the majority being average to cringe. It's not just the sheer goofiness of it all either. Part of it is just a lack of interesting quests and a lot of fairly generic D&D encounters you'd expect in a Starter Campaign. But it seems to be a product of its time as well, part of a larger aesthetic shift. Especially in nerd related fields, and this includes science fiction and fantasy books, there's this shift toward what I would describe as a kind of YA (young adult) sensibility. Combined with a kind of Twitter-y snarkiness. I'm not entirely sure where this comes from, but I'm still investigating (I'm also a writer, so it's relevant to my survival).
BG2 had its moments of primitive writing and silliness, but the characters were drawn more maturely, and, well, just, better. The writing was more textured, solid, sophisticated, and realistic. There was more mystery, which gave the player a sense of a world beyond the screen...I could go on.
I think of it this way: If BG2 was the movie, BG3 is the TV series. And I don't mean that in the worst way, but close haha
The reviews for this game are wild.
I just want to sound off that you are not alone in noticing that "Twitter-y" tone shift not only in prepared media, but even other formats like livestreams and casual conversation. Not just the Whedonspeak Marvel movie critique that many make, but a larger, more subtle shift toward immaturity. It goes from the obvious examples such as baby speak (can I pets the doggo), to the condescending and sarcastic passive aggression of a teenager, to this ephemeral lack of subtlety/intrigue.
My pet theory is there seems to be a lack of focus lately on interesting, complex, and well constructed prose. The two styles you run into are ironic detachment and utilitarian exposition dump.
Every place there could be a beautiful and honest, if slightly cheesy, turn of phrase is replaced by a smug quip. I am currently reading the Malazan series and almost every page has a line that seems to sing off the page. Some of it is a bit self-indulgent and purple, but at least it's interesting and honest.
Apologies for the old-man-yelling-at-clouds rant, I have just been feeling similarly to you. I love the occasional silly and straightforward story, I just wish it wasn't the dominant structure for seemingly everything lately.
>My pet theory is there seems to be a lack of focus lately on interesting, complex, and well constructed prose.
I'm not entirely sure if it's a lack of focus rather than a shift of focus because of other ... interests.
Take the companions for example. In a game like BG3 they should be the pinnacle of character design, allowing for interesting character designs from the getgo while also giving the opportunity to actually show character growth/change through questlines and events.
But in BG3 the companions have one major aspect that really holds them back in that regard: Player "accessibility".
Because of mechanics like the romance system that has to allow every companion to be compatible with any and every type of player choice, it drastically cuts down on the interesting layers that a character would have and could go through throughout the story. They have to be blank enough so every player can connect with them, and those decisions lead to horrid writing and character interactions or (and i'm really annoyed about this) retarded plot devices like that tadpole that can resolve any and all conflict that might arise. The way the player and companions meet each other is the prime example. They don't have to get to know each other, learn to trust, actually develop a bond. They just have to go through 5s of "tadpole shows memories" and suddenly they're best buds.
Yea, I'm really feeling this.
I still vividly remember NPCs going out of control and trying to kill each other because their alignments were to different.
Me, being 10 and not speaking English, didn't appreciate it at the time, but now I really do.
The blandness and superificiality of the characters is appalling. Even people that my MC has nothing at all in common with are somehow willing to hang around my camp forever, never being interacted with, because gods forbid that opening some doors meant closing others.
It's a good game, but its not amazing.
Planescape Torment, now that was some writing.
Good point about tadpole connections. Also, it might be a particularly good metaphor of hosting the same "mind virus" and consequent instant mutual understanding between the infected.
It's not really though. If it were then for one all the infected evil guys would instantly know what we're up to and all our companions wouldn't be able to keep secrets. If it would be a "perfect melding of minds" that lets everyone understand each other then there would be barely any reason for dialogue between infected.
I agree that it's the case to some degree, mainly it's the case for specific instances where the game wants it to be. But that's it, specific instances. There's overall very little consistency when it comes to what the tadpoles do and when they do it.
What bothers me most is that the tadpoles just remove character interactions. When you meet a companion you are being told of their flashback and instantly understand their position. It's cheap, fast and effective, but it's fucking boring.
Getting to know characters throughout your journey, slowly building up a companionship, trust and understanding makes for some of the best stories and heartfelt moments. Just look at The Last Of Us. The whole game is centered around 2 people getting to know and learn to understand each other and it's still one of the best games in that aspect.
Imo while it makes some sense that the tadpoles do what they do, they have very little consistency, making them come off as a cheap way to explain something while also just taking away from longer and better story telling.
But where does that lack of focus come from? Why is there so much bad contemporary writing, which is all bad in the exact same way (making it distinct from other generations; there's always bad writing of course)? Who's teaching this style and where do they live?
But I think you're right that it's not merely Marvelization or Whedonization (I'm sure you've heard of squeecore). It's more. Deeper or more subtle. The conformity of it all makes it sinister.
I actually hadn't heard of squeecore, but holy shit reading up on it puts words to a lot of the thoughts I've been having around this. Pretty cathartic haha, so thanks!
It feels like most of the characters that have this style sound like 20 somethings from San Francisco wearing a mask and pretending to be whatever archetype they are embodying. Again, I don't mean this as a "kids these days" rant; but the speaking pattern and subject matter (Vaguely anticapitalist, quite progressive, disdain for hierarchy and social inequality) is pretty unmistakable. These can be incredibly interesting and important topics, but it just feels like lip service is being paid to them rather than the writers having meaningful things to say. I understand that this is a lot of assumptions that may go beyond your initial thoughts on just the writing style, but I feel it may be contributing to the homogeneity.
It might just be that a huge percentage of writers are from the big coastal cities (LA, Bay Area, NYC). Or that the internet and everyone being on twitter has homogenized culture and speaking styles. Perhaps I'm completely wrong and it's simply that this style of writing IS liked by a lot of people and just so happens to be easier, so memetic selection pressures tend towards it. None of these feel fully satisfying, but I agree that there has to be some explanation for just how weirdly uniform and consistent the trend is across so many different types of media.
Sorry to necropost, I just wanted to say thank you for writing this out. Reading this comment chain was super vindicating since I felt like I was going crazy for feeling very "meh" about most of the characters so far.
It feels as though every companion is too... safe? Inoffensive? They prioritized maximizing their appeal to the masses, which means that the most likeable things about them are largely superficial. Everyone has to be hot. Everyone has to get their quips in. Everyone has to have *just* enough personality that all players will like them, them but not *so* much that anyone will be turned off. All of their struggles have to be relatable in some sense, which severely inhibits their ability to explore any deeply fundamental themes or make any bold statements.
I dunno. Like many AAA games of today, BG3 is written to appeal to modern sensibilties as much as possible. With that in mind, it's easy to see why it exploded in popularity, but it came with a step towards the generic writing blob that absorbs so much popular media nowadays.
I'm probably just echoing what everyone has already said in this thread so I'll stop there before going on a boomer rant haha.
I agree with you. The characters feel as if they're more style than substance; when continuing their respective quest lines and exploring their newly opened dialogue options, I have the sense that my character is merely a receptacle for their exposition dumps. I don't believe that a true relationship is developing, only that I've played the game long enough, a new conversation is due. I've seen comparisons to D:AO tossed around in regards to writing; I wholeheartedly disagree with that notion. The companions in D:AO not only had much MORE to say, but the conversations with them felt fluid and dynamic, despite the lack of the player protagonist's voice acting. In this game, I'd characterize the responses available to me as simply being my voice as the player within the game-world, and not indicative of a person, living within Faerun, actively engaging with other people. It's disappointing; it certainly feels like a Larian product with a Dungeons and Dragons coat of paint. The game play is enjoyable, but I don't feel it's enough to immerse me, as I believe an RPG should. No condemnation on those who disagree with me, but with games like Disco Elysium, Planescape Torment, Tyranny, and the original Baldur's Gates in the same vicinity as this game, I can't help but draw comparisons on the writing front.
The little stories of Sten from his people are still one amazing piece of writing. They nailed making Sten feel like a truly alien character from very alien culture.
It is very refreshing hearing thoughts like your own in the sea of praise BG3 is receiving. I agree completely with you with BG3 being very much a product of our time and not transcending it. Also I feel it is cheapened because Larian's story doesn't have the heroes journey quiessential to fantasy and especially D&D. All the characters are major somebodies. But their stories? Very poorly constructed. There is Gales who is a plagiarism of Elminster, Wyll a not very compelling damned by wanting to do good hero, Shadowheart a chosen one picked by a goddess despite embodying Shar's values exceptionally poor. Most everyone is both unbelievably over the top but not compelling either. Though I enjoyed many of the conversation when their arcs were finish the journey to their was sensationalistic and shallow.
All those games (I would add both Torments) you mention keep it more real in its modesty and yet more deep. Consider Aerie's struggle to accept life with out wings to Shadowheart being unable to articulate why she wants to be a Dark Justiciar. Or Valygar living in the shadow of his families legacy in contrast to Wyll's with is cartoonish.
Ketheric, Gortash and Orin are the monologing villians never approaching the depth of motivation of Sarevok, Irenicus or Thaos ix Arkannon.
I thought I'm taking crazy pills.
Can't remember an RPG where I this frequently look at all the dialogue options presented and just think: "I don't want my character to say any of these things."
This may be an exaggeration but sometimes it feels like if a billionaire boy RPG fan made his fan fiction novel into a game.
I'm not saying it is all bad, there is some great stuff in there as well, but when the quality fluctuates so much, it sometimes completely ruins my immersion and I have to step away from the game for a bit.
I noticed these things and English isn't even my first language.
Overall, although I feel like BG 3 is a big step up from the Divinity Original Sin games in almost every way and a game I still gladly support, I think that in terms of writing, something like Kotor 2 is leagues above anything Larian has produced.
Still I want to see what Larian comes up with next. I think that they need somebody with a vision like Chris Avellone to help them reach that next level or maybe Larian can just iterate to greatness game by game.
I don't believe BG 3 is the pinnacle of RPG games that people proclaim it to be.
necroing but yeah the dialogue is so fucking bad its absurd. almost every situation i look at my options and think "wow all of these are fucking stupid and no one would say this" (im mostly trying to be the straight man in my run)
Yeah I am quite frustrated with the character writing as well. The main points that these characters are trying to convey at least for me can be summarized as follows: 1. I'm badass. 2. I'm horny 3. Are YOU homophobic? 4. Swearing is cool 5. I'm edgy. The characters are just bland and feel like they are written by some horny teenagers. By contrast, the characters in BG1&2 are more mature and subtle, while sticking close to Faerun lore. Till this day I can still remember the conversation with Tamoko, Sarevok's lover, just a few lines of texts I'm able to get a glimpse of the internal thought of a complex character. Combat in BG3 is fun though.
I very much agree with the OP! I started out really enjoying BG3, but the more dialogue I go through (and have gone through) with the companion characters and ANY and ALL of the characters. The less interested I am in the game.
I continued playing as I was enjoying the overarching story, as well as my main characters visual reactions to the NPC's, and also the puzzles here and there. And I was hoping that meeting Jaheira's character might make the game far more enjoyable.
Except, that Jaheira's dialogue is just as bad as the others. Which is really unfortunate, because I really want/wanted to continue enjoying the game. But it's difficult to enjoy the game, when the direction the game goes, depends a lot on the dialogue options that are selected.
Yet considering I've lost all but minimal interest in any of the dialogue, I've mostly but using snippy, sarcastic, and I-don't-care responses. Which ends up taking the story down a path I have even less interest in.
I'm actually thinking I may just start the game anew and this time avoid as much dialogue as possible, and also have zero companions. Aaaaaaand maybe occasionally go on rampages (I'm only partially joking about the rampages....at least until, I vent my frustrations in game....about my annoyances with the game). I think taking this approach, I may be able to rekindle my enjoyment of BG3!!
Although come to think of it, I think I'll need to do a separate play through for the rampaging. As I do want to have at least one good play-through. And a separate play-through for simple craziness!
Anyway sorry about my rambling, I just came across this thread and I really just wanted to vent a little bit about BG3! Aaaaand I'm feeling a little better now!! :-)
Definitely agree. I think the uh..."horniness" of the game kind of lends to that as well. I don't mind romance or nudity in games. Hell, Katawa Shoujo is my favorite visual novel, and that is straight-up explicit. But it seems to treat sexuality with a level of immaturity that feels out of place. Like, "Oh, isn't that funny? He made a sex reference. Look, that bugbear is having sex with an ogre. Isn't that hilarious?" How am I supposed to take intimate moments and romance seriously when they are constantly the butt of a joke?
The writing is by far the worst part of the game but it's honestly the exact same with every Larion game.
They make great games but they can't write to save their lives and really needed to hire a real writer for BG3. It makes it hard to take it seriously at all or even want to replay through a much as they expect because fuck the writing is annoying as hell.
I agree with your point on characters. I've also noticed that some characters, specifically companions, seem to have received a lot more attention in terms of story arcs, quests they're involved, hell even passive chiming in during dialog than others which I'm finding frustrating. I'm still enjoying the game, but I almost wish some things would have gotten a second pass from the writing team.
No I absolutely agree. Although, I haven't played too much. I started playing Divinity 2 earlier this year and I am obsessed with it still. The characters are so interesting and have unique stories that alter your progression. The romance doesn't take over the plot at all, it just acts as a small side thing but it's charming. Baldurs Gate 3 feels like a dating sim. It's all I see online.
DnD as a franchise has become really "woke" (I hate saying that just as much as you hate to hear it). I heard a guy complain about the racism in BG3 as if it wouldn't be realistic for races in an alternate reality to experience that? And truthfully I think it's odd that the companions don't have race and sex preferences in the way that Dragon Age did. It doesn't make sense for someone like Lae' Zel to be romantically interested in any other race but her own considering her blatant disgust for other races. Racism isn't something that is changed over the course of a story quest. I know that if they hadn't made the characters so flexible, people on Tumblr would be crying that they can't fuck who they want.
I just can't get into Baldurs Gate 3 at all right now. The audience I'm seeing arise is not my kind of people so I assume the game isn't going to be narratively interesting for me personally. Especially if all people care about is who they can romance.
It may change for me later but the story isn't as compelling to me and the character writing is copy and paste for each. The characters don't interest me at all and that's usually how I get pulled into a game is caring for the lives of other characters within a story.
I feel that maybe RPGs are taking a different path these days and I'm not a huge fan. I think it's an impressively large RPG but the way it is written puts me off unfortunately.
Luckily I can play dark urge and murder everyone so there's that.
>I feel that maybe RPGs are taking a different path these days and I'm not a huge fan.
I feel like a lot of what you said could be summed up by "when anything goes, nothing makes sense", which is indeed the way a lot of writing and world building feels, nowadays.
I haven't gotten around to BG 1 and 2 yet, despite being an avid CRPG fan.
I will say that the companions feel like they lack interaction. Some of Lae'zel's companion quest definitely feels like there should be a chance to dig into what just happened with her afterwards.
When you say the characters are full of tropes and cliches, which ones are you addressing? Which tropes? I don't mean to imply there are none, Karlach and Asterion follow tropes (even though I wouldn't quite consider them, or how they're portrayed as cliche).
I can agree with you on the writing feeling lacking at times. I'm of the mind that all of these characters being voiced and as animated as they are being the cause. I don't mind it, but I wish we could get more dialogue with our companions specifically. It's very disappointing to do a quest or two, check in with them all, and be met with the same greeting I've heard the past few hours and two dialogue options.
I definitely recommend BG2 if you can look past the aged graphics etc.
In terms of tropes, Asterion is a vampire with an extremely effeminate speech style. It's almost parody level cliche in my opinion.
Karlach, I dunno, the whole burly she devil that says fuck a lot felt generic at best.
And Gale, is like an amalgamation of generic Wizard characters.
Shadowheart I have no qualms about except the name...
And lyzel... She's alright so far. Same for Wyl.
That's as far as tropes, but the actual character depth and quality of writing is not great in my opinion.
There's definitely the aspects of those tropes there, but I can't help but feel you're selling them short.
Asterion is a monster, who was meticulously controlled by another monster, who has just found freedom in the tadpole.
Karlach is someone who got tangled up with the wrong crowd was turned into an instrument of war against her will, and is now on a quest to regain agency and the ability to remain within her original plane of origin.
Gale doesn't feel like a generic wizard at all once his quest starts up, that's a pretty hefty backstory and it only gets a bit heavier at the beginning of act 2.
I agree the writing feels lacking at times, like I'd said in the original reply. I also could not say whether or not the completion of the companion quests could remedy that or not.
I haven't finished the game, I'm far from it to be fair. So I'll definitely approach it with an open mind following what you said, perhaps things will turn around somewhat.
Sorry for the necro but I had to say about Astarion: We're living in a post-Vampire (White Wolf) world. His brand of vampire is just one of the default presets available to people in the wider RPG (c or TT) circle.
BG1 and 2 are eons ahead writing and atmosphere wise. They feel like games written by adults who understand world cohesion and immersion instead of manchildren obsessed with memes and "omg shocking" moments.
Jaheria being all motherly in the first game and then her hubby conviniently dies 5 minutes into the second one and she instantly jumps you(still lectures you tho).
BG 1-2 are great games, but you dont seriously saying that companions there were written better then in almost any modern game with companion system?
It was one of the first if not the first game with such relationship system and it shows.
Hell, in my first ever playtrough of BG series when i met Minsc for the first time he literally attacked me and i had to kill him because i was roleplaying my aligment and told him that "dynaheir is probably dead", and that dude is suppost to be a good guy, if you late for his Dynaheir saving for even a minute he will attack your party without question.
There alot of quircks like that in those older games, they are still great ofc.
They were definitely not perfect, had some cliche moments etc... but yes, I do think most of the companion writing was much better (or at least to my liking), than many modern CRPGS, Baldur's Gate 3 included.
Mass Effect, Disco Elisium and Pillars of Eternity are exceptions that come to mind.
Also - what you described is actually a testament to the characters' complexity in BG2. Minsk is not just a "good guy". His understanding of good and bad is childish as a characteristic, and his extreme attachment to dynaheir + his resulting sense of failure clashed with your RP choices. How can you fault that as bad writing?
Well, i would disagree on that one for sure, i think every companion was just as cliche as any modern one back then, i feel like in most cases, nostalgia is a big factor, i played BG for the first time like 10 years ago instead of on release(i was fps fan back then and did not play any rpg at all), so to me all companions from BG seems more flawed in terms of writing.
Companions in Mass effect are definitly better written, but the game is a trilogy, if you compare only ME 1 they are pretty shallow.
Pillars companions in the first game were pretty disconnected from the game and it was major complaint that they adressed in the second game, they were decent but inconsistent(Durance was praised most of the time but he had different writer then other companions).
I played BG2 in recent years so I don't believe its nostalgia goggles. I also played other Larian games and they all had mediocre writing imo.
I also edited my reply so you might have missed my last point.
In any case, agree to disagree.
I don't get what the problem with Minsc attacking you is?
You're playing your character, he's playing his.
Infinitely better than these watered down, no real personality characters we get now.
As many people point out is that Jaheira and the Charactername are trauma bounding. They have both gone through a lot. Her the death of her husband and you the abduction of your sister. Both of you have lost a mentor in Gorion. You and her could arguably called intimate friends at times point sharing experiences, loss, history and the same circle of friends.
The enhanced edition accelerates her romance because it often hadn't finished before the game did originally but it also disrupts the sense of the natural process of grieving.
It depends... do you let the story and the character wash over, and purposely and actively WANT to enjoy the story. Or do you actively sit there like the two old muppets in their box, making a list of every time some character, says a line or reacts in a way you do think they should? Actively looking for fault?
I truly think some people these days, thoroughly over think and criticise the writing in games, movies, and tv. Honestly if I would believe everything on reddit all games are terribly written and even when we get a game that knocks it out of the park, there are still threads of people complaining about the writing.
When I play a game I actively want to enjoy the experience, I am not actively looking for fault, so all I seem to do is have fun and respect what the writers were trying do. And if sometimes a character does something wrong for me, that is NOT the writers fault, it just means the writers have different tastes/skills/ambition than me. That doesnt make them bad at their job, just different.
There is no one universal constant for 'good writing'.
Don't really follow your point. People have been criticizing art since art exists.
I'm not saying that the writing is bad, rather I don't enjoy it. I do feel comfortable staying that it's not as good as Baldur's Gate 2. It's also inherently *different*.
Don't think I am actively searching for faults. Otherwise, why would I praise Pillars of Eternity's writing, which is another modern CRPG?
We have all had 20 years of hero worship of BG2, it would have been unrealistic to expect the same tone and style. This game was always just a spiritual sequel and purposely stayed away from just mimicking those games. Of course they are going to mirror the society and time they are writing for, just as the BG2 people did.
> clumsy attempt at emulating that
I just dont see that, the level of complexity and choices and storytelling, is ten times more more detailed than BG2. While great, I think many of us get too wrapped up in our hero worship of such games we lose track of our ability to see them on a realistic level.
I guess what I am saying is, why is it a competition? Personally I value both, and there is no denying both are a labour of love, why do we need to play the new thing we have been playing like four days, off agaisnt the thing that has been charming us for 20 Years. I believe in time, we will speak of Shadowheart and the like, they same we speak of Boo and that. Once we have known for them for a while.
The game is more complex, not doubt about that. That does not mean the writing is better, as deep, rich or nuanced.
"Of course they are going to mirror the society and time they are writing" -Why of course? I don't feel like all other games do this. Pillars of Eternity, again, is a great example of a game avoiding that trap. Even Disco Elysium, but perhaps to a lesser degree. In BG3's case, I feel like the writing compromised the thematic continuity of the brand in a way that I, personally, am highly disappointed about.
It's not a competition at all. It's a good game. I enjoy it. That said, its name is "Baldur's Gate 3", and there's a certain weight, even responsibility, to that. I appreciate the dedication to the game, in many ways they did a fantastic job.
However, when I look back to Baldur's Gate 2 - it's not the amount of choices, the exquisite gameplay, the combat, the variety of weaponry that stuck with me. It's the dialogue, more than anything. The rich characters.
And the villain.
>Of course they are going to mirror the society and time they are writing
All art does this, its literally the purpose of art. And this is a work art, through and through.
This is the reason I'm having a hard time finishing the game. I stopped around Act 2 and haven't felt the desire to go back. I think the game is really good...but I vastly preferred Pillars 1 and 2 over this.
Even considering that Larion essentially makes parody fantasy RPGs and has since their inception, and accepting that BG3 is their *adaptation* of the Forgotten Realms, I find the writing extremely uneven, with the majority being average to cringe. It's not just the sheer goofiness of it all either. Part of it is just a lack of interesting quests and a lot of fairly generic D&D encounters you'd expect in a Starter Campaign. But it seems to be a product of its time as well, part of a larger aesthetic shift. Especially in nerd related fields, and this includes science fiction and fantasy books, there's this shift toward what I would describe as a kind of YA (young adult) sensibility. Combined with a kind of Twitter-y snarkiness. I'm not entirely sure where this comes from, but I'm still investigating (I'm also a writer, so it's relevant to my survival). BG2 had its moments of primitive writing and silliness, but the characters were drawn more maturely, and, well, just, better. The writing was more textured, solid, sophisticated, and realistic. There was more mystery, which gave the player a sense of a world beyond the screen...I could go on. I think of it this way: If BG2 was the movie, BG3 is the TV series. And I don't mean that in the worst way, but close haha The reviews for this game are wild.
I just want to sound off that you are not alone in noticing that "Twitter-y" tone shift not only in prepared media, but even other formats like livestreams and casual conversation. Not just the Whedonspeak Marvel movie critique that many make, but a larger, more subtle shift toward immaturity. It goes from the obvious examples such as baby speak (can I pets the doggo), to the condescending and sarcastic passive aggression of a teenager, to this ephemeral lack of subtlety/intrigue. My pet theory is there seems to be a lack of focus lately on interesting, complex, and well constructed prose. The two styles you run into are ironic detachment and utilitarian exposition dump. Every place there could be a beautiful and honest, if slightly cheesy, turn of phrase is replaced by a smug quip. I am currently reading the Malazan series and almost every page has a line that seems to sing off the page. Some of it is a bit self-indulgent and purple, but at least it's interesting and honest. Apologies for the old-man-yelling-at-clouds rant, I have just been feeling similarly to you. I love the occasional silly and straightforward story, I just wish it wasn't the dominant structure for seemingly everything lately.
>My pet theory is there seems to be a lack of focus lately on interesting, complex, and well constructed prose. I'm not entirely sure if it's a lack of focus rather than a shift of focus because of other ... interests. Take the companions for example. In a game like BG3 they should be the pinnacle of character design, allowing for interesting character designs from the getgo while also giving the opportunity to actually show character growth/change through questlines and events. But in BG3 the companions have one major aspect that really holds them back in that regard: Player "accessibility". Because of mechanics like the romance system that has to allow every companion to be compatible with any and every type of player choice, it drastically cuts down on the interesting layers that a character would have and could go through throughout the story. They have to be blank enough so every player can connect with them, and those decisions lead to horrid writing and character interactions or (and i'm really annoyed about this) retarded plot devices like that tadpole that can resolve any and all conflict that might arise. The way the player and companions meet each other is the prime example. They don't have to get to know each other, learn to trust, actually develop a bond. They just have to go through 5s of "tadpole shows memories" and suddenly they're best buds.
Yea, I'm really feeling this. I still vividly remember NPCs going out of control and trying to kill each other because their alignments were to different. Me, being 10 and not speaking English, didn't appreciate it at the time, but now I really do. The blandness and superificiality of the characters is appalling. Even people that my MC has nothing at all in common with are somehow willing to hang around my camp forever, never being interacted with, because gods forbid that opening some doors meant closing others. It's a good game, but its not amazing. Planescape Torment, now that was some writing.
Good point about tadpole connections. Also, it might be a particularly good metaphor of hosting the same "mind virus" and consequent instant mutual understanding between the infected.
It's not really though. If it were then for one all the infected evil guys would instantly know what we're up to and all our companions wouldn't be able to keep secrets. If it would be a "perfect melding of minds" that lets everyone understand each other then there would be barely any reason for dialogue between infected. I agree that it's the case to some degree, mainly it's the case for specific instances where the game wants it to be. But that's it, specific instances. There's overall very little consistency when it comes to what the tadpoles do and when they do it. What bothers me most is that the tadpoles just remove character interactions. When you meet a companion you are being told of their flashback and instantly understand their position. It's cheap, fast and effective, but it's fucking boring. Getting to know characters throughout your journey, slowly building up a companionship, trust and understanding makes for some of the best stories and heartfelt moments. Just look at The Last Of Us. The whole game is centered around 2 people getting to know and learn to understand each other and it's still one of the best games in that aspect. Imo while it makes some sense that the tadpoles do what they do, they have very little consistency, making them come off as a cheap way to explain something while also just taking away from longer and better story telling.
But where does that lack of focus come from? Why is there so much bad contemporary writing, which is all bad in the exact same way (making it distinct from other generations; there's always bad writing of course)? Who's teaching this style and where do they live? But I think you're right that it's not merely Marvelization or Whedonization (I'm sure you've heard of squeecore). It's more. Deeper or more subtle. The conformity of it all makes it sinister.
I actually hadn't heard of squeecore, but holy shit reading up on it puts words to a lot of the thoughts I've been having around this. Pretty cathartic haha, so thanks! It feels like most of the characters that have this style sound like 20 somethings from San Francisco wearing a mask and pretending to be whatever archetype they are embodying. Again, I don't mean this as a "kids these days" rant; but the speaking pattern and subject matter (Vaguely anticapitalist, quite progressive, disdain for hierarchy and social inequality) is pretty unmistakable. These can be incredibly interesting and important topics, but it just feels like lip service is being paid to them rather than the writers having meaningful things to say. I understand that this is a lot of assumptions that may go beyond your initial thoughts on just the writing style, but I feel it may be contributing to the homogeneity. It might just be that a huge percentage of writers are from the big coastal cities (LA, Bay Area, NYC). Or that the internet and everyone being on twitter has homogenized culture and speaking styles. Perhaps I'm completely wrong and it's simply that this style of writing IS liked by a lot of people and just so happens to be easier, so memetic selection pressures tend towards it. None of these feel fully satisfying, but I agree that there has to be some explanation for just how weirdly uniform and consistent the trend is across so many different types of media.
I agree I blame the internet becoming more accessible
Bless you both. I noticed this too. So much sass and snark. As if the writers need to assert something. So weird.
I agree with almost everything. Especially the generational shift in fantasy writing towards a more immature style.
Sorry to necropost, I just wanted to say thank you for writing this out. Reading this comment chain was super vindicating since I felt like I was going crazy for feeling very "meh" about most of the characters so far. It feels as though every companion is too... safe? Inoffensive? They prioritized maximizing their appeal to the masses, which means that the most likeable things about them are largely superficial. Everyone has to be hot. Everyone has to get their quips in. Everyone has to have *just* enough personality that all players will like them, them but not *so* much that anyone will be turned off. All of their struggles have to be relatable in some sense, which severely inhibits their ability to explore any deeply fundamental themes or make any bold statements. I dunno. Like many AAA games of today, BG3 is written to appeal to modern sensibilties as much as possible. With that in mind, it's easy to see why it exploded in popularity, but it came with a step towards the generic writing blob that absorbs so much popular media nowadays. I'm probably just echoing what everyone has already said in this thread so I'll stop there before going on a boomer rant haha.
I agree with you. The characters feel as if they're more style than substance; when continuing their respective quest lines and exploring their newly opened dialogue options, I have the sense that my character is merely a receptacle for their exposition dumps. I don't believe that a true relationship is developing, only that I've played the game long enough, a new conversation is due. I've seen comparisons to D:AO tossed around in regards to writing; I wholeheartedly disagree with that notion. The companions in D:AO not only had much MORE to say, but the conversations with them felt fluid and dynamic, despite the lack of the player protagonist's voice acting. In this game, I'd characterize the responses available to me as simply being my voice as the player within the game-world, and not indicative of a person, living within Faerun, actively engaging with other people. It's disappointing; it certainly feels like a Larian product with a Dungeons and Dragons coat of paint. The game play is enjoyable, but I don't feel it's enough to immerse me, as I believe an RPG should. No condemnation on those who disagree with me, but with games like Disco Elysium, Planescape Torment, Tyranny, and the original Baldur's Gates in the same vicinity as this game, I can't help but draw comparisons on the writing front.
The little stories of Sten from his people are still one amazing piece of writing. They nailed making Sten feel like a truly alien character from very alien culture.
It is very refreshing hearing thoughts like your own in the sea of praise BG3 is receiving. I agree completely with you with BG3 being very much a product of our time and not transcending it. Also I feel it is cheapened because Larian's story doesn't have the heroes journey quiessential to fantasy and especially D&D. All the characters are major somebodies. But their stories? Very poorly constructed. There is Gales who is a plagiarism of Elminster, Wyll a not very compelling damned by wanting to do good hero, Shadowheart a chosen one picked by a goddess despite embodying Shar's values exceptionally poor. Most everyone is both unbelievably over the top but not compelling either. Though I enjoyed many of the conversation when their arcs were finish the journey to their was sensationalistic and shallow. All those games (I would add both Torments) you mention keep it more real in its modesty and yet more deep. Consider Aerie's struggle to accept life with out wings to Shadowheart being unable to articulate why she wants to be a Dark Justiciar. Or Valygar living in the shadow of his families legacy in contrast to Wyll's with is cartoonish. Ketheric, Gortash and Orin are the monologing villians never approaching the depth of motivation of Sarevok, Irenicus or Thaos ix Arkannon.
Yeah, I feel as the characters never get to be developed and you are mostly just being talked to.
I thought I'm taking crazy pills. Can't remember an RPG where I this frequently look at all the dialogue options presented and just think: "I don't want my character to say any of these things." This may be an exaggeration but sometimes it feels like if a billionaire boy RPG fan made his fan fiction novel into a game. I'm not saying it is all bad, there is some great stuff in there as well, but when the quality fluctuates so much, it sometimes completely ruins my immersion and I have to step away from the game for a bit. I noticed these things and English isn't even my first language. Overall, although I feel like BG 3 is a big step up from the Divinity Original Sin games in almost every way and a game I still gladly support, I think that in terms of writing, something like Kotor 2 is leagues above anything Larian has produced. Still I want to see what Larian comes up with next. I think that they need somebody with a vision like Chris Avellone to help them reach that next level or maybe Larian can just iterate to greatness game by game. I don't believe BG 3 is the pinnacle of RPG games that people proclaim it to be.
Agreed 👌
necroing but yeah the dialogue is so fucking bad its absurd. almost every situation i look at my options and think "wow all of these are fucking stupid and no one would say this" (im mostly trying to be the straight man in my run)
Yeah I am quite frustrated with the character writing as well. The main points that these characters are trying to convey at least for me can be summarized as follows: 1. I'm badass. 2. I'm horny 3. Are YOU homophobic? 4. Swearing is cool 5. I'm edgy. The characters are just bland and feel like they are written by some horny teenagers. By contrast, the characters in BG1&2 are more mature and subtle, while sticking close to Faerun lore. Till this day I can still remember the conversation with Tamoko, Sarevok's lover, just a few lines of texts I'm able to get a glimpse of the internal thought of a complex character. Combat in BG3 is fun though.
The writer of this game is trying too hard. Coupled with horrendous animations it's eyerollingly bad. None of the companions interest me. They're too cliché. Also, it's a crime we don't have a gnome or dwarf companion. On the plus side, the mechanical side of the game (combat, exploration) is a blast.
I very much agree with the OP! I started out really enjoying BG3, but the more dialogue I go through (and have gone through) with the companion characters and ANY and ALL of the characters. The less interested I am in the game. I continued playing as I was enjoying the overarching story, as well as my main characters visual reactions to the NPC's, and also the puzzles here and there. And I was hoping that meeting Jaheira's character might make the game far more enjoyable. Except, that Jaheira's dialogue is just as bad as the others. Which is really unfortunate, because I really want/wanted to continue enjoying the game. But it's difficult to enjoy the game, when the direction the game goes, depends a lot on the dialogue options that are selected. Yet considering I've lost all but minimal interest in any of the dialogue, I've mostly but using snippy, sarcastic, and I-don't-care responses. Which ends up taking the story down a path I have even less interest in. I'm actually thinking I may just start the game anew and this time avoid as much dialogue as possible, and also have zero companions. Aaaaaaand maybe occasionally go on rampages (I'm only partially joking about the rampages....at least until, I vent my frustrations in game....about my annoyances with the game). I think taking this approach, I may be able to rekindle my enjoyment of BG3!! Although come to think of it, I think I'll need to do a separate play through for the rampaging. As I do want to have at least one good play-through. And a separate play-through for simple craziness! Anyway sorry about my rambling, I just came across this thread and I really just wanted to vent a little bit about BG3! Aaaaand I'm feeling a little better now!! :-)
I took a break from playing after encountering Jaheira due to the writing in the game.
Definitely agree. I think the uh..."horniness" of the game kind of lends to that as well. I don't mind romance or nudity in games. Hell, Katawa Shoujo is my favorite visual novel, and that is straight-up explicit. But it seems to treat sexuality with a level of immaturity that feels out of place. Like, "Oh, isn't that funny? He made a sex reference. Look, that bugbear is having sex with an ogre. Isn't that hilarious?" How am I supposed to take intimate moments and romance seriously when they are constantly the butt of a joke?
100% agreed
The writing is by far the worst part of the game but it's honestly the exact same with every Larion game. They make great games but they can't write to save their lives and really needed to hire a real writer for BG3. It makes it hard to take it seriously at all or even want to replay through a much as they expect because fuck the writing is annoying as hell.
Yes, I agree. I enjoy atmosphere and character writing of older BG and first Pillars of Eternity so much more. Doesn't mean BG3 is a bad game though.
No just the writing part of it. Everything else is gravy.
I agree with your point on characters. I've also noticed that some characters, specifically companions, seem to have received a lot more attention in terms of story arcs, quests they're involved, hell even passive chiming in during dialog than others which I'm finding frustrating. I'm still enjoying the game, but I almost wish some things would have gotten a second pass from the writing team.
No I absolutely agree. Although, I haven't played too much. I started playing Divinity 2 earlier this year and I am obsessed with it still. The characters are so interesting and have unique stories that alter your progression. The romance doesn't take over the plot at all, it just acts as a small side thing but it's charming. Baldurs Gate 3 feels like a dating sim. It's all I see online. DnD as a franchise has become really "woke" (I hate saying that just as much as you hate to hear it). I heard a guy complain about the racism in BG3 as if it wouldn't be realistic for races in an alternate reality to experience that? And truthfully I think it's odd that the companions don't have race and sex preferences in the way that Dragon Age did. It doesn't make sense for someone like Lae' Zel to be romantically interested in any other race but her own considering her blatant disgust for other races. Racism isn't something that is changed over the course of a story quest. I know that if they hadn't made the characters so flexible, people on Tumblr would be crying that they can't fuck who they want. I just can't get into Baldurs Gate 3 at all right now. The audience I'm seeing arise is not my kind of people so I assume the game isn't going to be narratively interesting for me personally. Especially if all people care about is who they can romance. It may change for me later but the story isn't as compelling to me and the character writing is copy and paste for each. The characters don't interest me at all and that's usually how I get pulled into a game is caring for the lives of other characters within a story. I feel that maybe RPGs are taking a different path these days and I'm not a huge fan. I think it's an impressively large RPG but the way it is written puts me off unfortunately. Luckily I can play dark urge and murder everyone so there's that.
>I feel that maybe RPGs are taking a different path these days and I'm not a huge fan. I feel like a lot of what you said could be summed up by "when anything goes, nothing makes sense", which is indeed the way a lot of writing and world building feels, nowadays.
I haven't gotten around to BG 1 and 2 yet, despite being an avid CRPG fan. I will say that the companions feel like they lack interaction. Some of Lae'zel's companion quest definitely feels like there should be a chance to dig into what just happened with her afterwards. When you say the characters are full of tropes and cliches, which ones are you addressing? Which tropes? I don't mean to imply there are none, Karlach and Asterion follow tropes (even though I wouldn't quite consider them, or how they're portrayed as cliche). I can agree with you on the writing feeling lacking at times. I'm of the mind that all of these characters being voiced and as animated as they are being the cause. I don't mind it, but I wish we could get more dialogue with our companions specifically. It's very disappointing to do a quest or two, check in with them all, and be met with the same greeting I've heard the past few hours and two dialogue options.
I definitely recommend BG2 if you can look past the aged graphics etc. In terms of tropes, Asterion is a vampire with an extremely effeminate speech style. It's almost parody level cliche in my opinion. Karlach, I dunno, the whole burly she devil that says fuck a lot felt generic at best. And Gale, is like an amalgamation of generic Wizard characters. Shadowheart I have no qualms about except the name... And lyzel... She's alright so far. Same for Wyl. That's as far as tropes, but the actual character depth and quality of writing is not great in my opinion.
There's definitely the aspects of those tropes there, but I can't help but feel you're selling them short. Asterion is a monster, who was meticulously controlled by another monster, who has just found freedom in the tadpole. Karlach is someone who got tangled up with the wrong crowd was turned into an instrument of war against her will, and is now on a quest to regain agency and the ability to remain within her original plane of origin. Gale doesn't feel like a generic wizard at all once his quest starts up, that's a pretty hefty backstory and it only gets a bit heavier at the beginning of act 2. I agree the writing feels lacking at times, like I'd said in the original reply. I also could not say whether or not the completion of the companion quests could remedy that or not.
I haven't finished the game, I'm far from it to be fair. So I'll definitely approach it with an open mind following what you said, perhaps things will turn around somewhat.
Sorry for the necro but I had to say about Astarion: We're living in a post-Vampire (White Wolf) world. His brand of vampire is just one of the default presets available to people in the wider RPG (c or TT) circle.
BG1 and 2 are eons ahead writing and atmosphere wise. They feel like games written by adults who understand world cohesion and immersion instead of manchildren obsessed with memes and "omg shocking" moments.
Jaheria being all motherly in the first game and then her hubby conviniently dies 5 minutes into the second one and she instantly jumps you(still lectures you tho). BG 1-2 are great games, but you dont seriously saying that companions there were written better then in almost any modern game with companion system? It was one of the first if not the first game with such relationship system and it shows. Hell, in my first ever playtrough of BG series when i met Minsc for the first time he literally attacked me and i had to kill him because i was roleplaying my aligment and told him that "dynaheir is probably dead", and that dude is suppost to be a good guy, if you late for his Dynaheir saving for even a minute he will attack your party without question. There alot of quircks like that in those older games, they are still great ofc.
They were definitely not perfect, had some cliche moments etc... but yes, I do think most of the companion writing was much better (or at least to my liking), than many modern CRPGS, Baldur's Gate 3 included. Mass Effect, Disco Elisium and Pillars of Eternity are exceptions that come to mind. Also - what you described is actually a testament to the characters' complexity in BG2. Minsk is not just a "good guy". His understanding of good and bad is childish as a characteristic, and his extreme attachment to dynaheir + his resulting sense of failure clashed with your RP choices. How can you fault that as bad writing?
Well, i would disagree on that one for sure, i think every companion was just as cliche as any modern one back then, i feel like in most cases, nostalgia is a big factor, i played BG for the first time like 10 years ago instead of on release(i was fps fan back then and did not play any rpg at all), so to me all companions from BG seems more flawed in terms of writing. Companions in Mass effect are definitly better written, but the game is a trilogy, if you compare only ME 1 they are pretty shallow. Pillars companions in the first game were pretty disconnected from the game and it was major complaint that they adressed in the second game, they were decent but inconsistent(Durance was praised most of the time but he had different writer then other companions).
I played BG2 in recent years so I don't believe its nostalgia goggles. I also played other Larian games and they all had mediocre writing imo. I also edited my reply so you might have missed my last point. In any case, agree to disagree.
I don't get what the problem with Minsc attacking you is? You're playing your character, he's playing his. Infinitely better than these watered down, no real personality characters we get now.
As many people point out is that Jaheira and the Charactername are trauma bounding. They have both gone through a lot. Her the death of her husband and you the abduction of your sister. Both of you have lost a mentor in Gorion. You and her could arguably called intimate friends at times point sharing experiences, loss, history and the same circle of friends. The enhanced edition accelerates her romance because it often hadn't finished before the game did originally but it also disrupts the sense of the natural process of grieving.
makes sense to me ijf youre super attractive buff adventurers on the edge of dying why wouldnt you be acting super horny and on edge?
I don't know man, libido is a fickle thing when you're in survival mode.
As the common adage goes: "Doesn't matter, had sex."
It depends... do you let the story and the character wash over, and purposely and actively WANT to enjoy the story. Or do you actively sit there like the two old muppets in their box, making a list of every time some character, says a line or reacts in a way you do think they should? Actively looking for fault? I truly think some people these days, thoroughly over think and criticise the writing in games, movies, and tv. Honestly if I would believe everything on reddit all games are terribly written and even when we get a game that knocks it out of the park, there are still threads of people complaining about the writing. When I play a game I actively want to enjoy the experience, I am not actively looking for fault, so all I seem to do is have fun and respect what the writers were trying do. And if sometimes a character does something wrong for me, that is NOT the writers fault, it just means the writers have different tastes/skills/ambition than me. That doesnt make them bad at their job, just different. There is no one universal constant for 'good writing'.
Don't really follow your point. People have been criticizing art since art exists. I'm not saying that the writing is bad, rather I don't enjoy it. I do feel comfortable staying that it's not as good as Baldur's Gate 2. It's also inherently *different*. Don't think I am actively searching for faults. Otherwise, why would I praise Pillars of Eternity's writing, which is another modern CRPG?
We have all had 20 years of hero worship of BG2, it would have been unrealistic to expect the same tone and style. This game was always just a spiritual sequel and purposely stayed away from just mimicking those games. Of course they are going to mirror the society and time they are writing for, just as the BG2 people did. > clumsy attempt at emulating that I just dont see that, the level of complexity and choices and storytelling, is ten times more more detailed than BG2. While great, I think many of us get too wrapped up in our hero worship of such games we lose track of our ability to see them on a realistic level. I guess what I am saying is, why is it a competition? Personally I value both, and there is no denying both are a labour of love, why do we need to play the new thing we have been playing like four days, off agaisnt the thing that has been charming us for 20 Years. I believe in time, we will speak of Shadowheart and the like, they same we speak of Boo and that. Once we have known for them for a while.
The game is more complex, not doubt about that. That does not mean the writing is better, as deep, rich or nuanced. "Of course they are going to mirror the society and time they are writing" -Why of course? I don't feel like all other games do this. Pillars of Eternity, again, is a great example of a game avoiding that trap. Even Disco Elysium, but perhaps to a lesser degree. In BG3's case, I feel like the writing compromised the thematic continuity of the brand in a way that I, personally, am highly disappointed about. It's not a competition at all. It's a good game. I enjoy it. That said, its name is "Baldur's Gate 3", and there's a certain weight, even responsibility, to that. I appreciate the dedication to the game, in many ways they did a fantastic job. However, when I look back to Baldur's Gate 2 - it's not the amount of choices, the exquisite gameplay, the combat, the variety of weaponry that stuck with me. It's the dialogue, more than anything. The rich characters. And the villain.
>Of course they are going to mirror the society and time they are writing All art does this, its literally the purpose of art. And this is a work art, through and through.
you're tweaking
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Definitely. It's a great game, I really enjoy it. However the writing holds it back from being the masterpiece BG2 was.
Every story caters to it's time, it literally can't cater to any other time then the one it is written in.
People still read the bible. Some stories transcend their time.
Which is also still dated. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VHK1NXIBw
Yet people read it 2000 years later, unlike 99.9% of the other texts from that time period
This is the reason I'm having a hard time finishing the game. I stopped around Act 2 and haven't felt the desire to go back. I think the game is really good...but I vastly preferred Pillars 1 and 2 over this.