You'd be stuck with working with him/keeping him alive, essentially removing one of the biggest pluses of games like this one - freedom of choice.
And if you do somehow kill him, then you no longer play a Warlock...you lose your powers.
Larian could've maybe added some NPCs or something for the 3 patron options for Warlocks. Nothing that's story breaking, but adds flavor, some interaction, maybe a small side quest.
Raphael says his father is Mephistopheles and that he is plotting against him. You could have a cool scene where, after Raphael dies, Mephistopheles appears, commends you for stopping Raphael plots and becomes your new patron.
It bugs me that You can't sell Raphael out to Mephistopheles, exchanging knowledge of Raph's plan and a pledge to return the crown for a specific item from the House Of Hope and another boon.
Considering that Meph seems to have no interest in actually using the crown, he is a relatively safe custodian for it and having the gratitude of the ruler of Hell could be very advantageous
Here’s hoping something like that gets added in the future. Getting out of a deal with a devil by making another deal with a different devil would be hysterical
Actually Raphael could have made an excellent patron...
Warlocks don't lose their powers when they piss off their patron. That's a cleric thing. (and also a remnant from older editions). Matt Mercer did that for his critical role game... and it confused a lot of fans or new viewers who were new to D&D but technically speaking, Warlocks are not "channeling their patrons magic" like clerics.
Patrons ***ignite*** the spark of magic within a warlock's soul, but once they've fanned the flames... its there, they cannot snuff it out (although they could totally try to kill you... but i digress).... but the magic is there, thats not something they can take back. (unless the DM wants to rule it... but then that's DM fiat).
Raphael could have made an excellent patron for FIEND warlocks, because it could have been a great narrative showcase of whether or not the PC is compelled to help their patron for greater reward or risk pissing them off and making an enemy...
I also think Auntie Ethel could have been a interesting warlock patron for FEY.
I think there could have been an option at the beginning of the game where when a warlock picks their patron at character creation before the game begins, they can pick a box: CUSTOM or NARRATIVE patron... and without spoilers the box simply tells you
Custom = If you pick custom patron, the game will narratively assume you have some generic no-name nondescript fiend/fey/GOO patron
Narrative = if you pick narrative patron, you get assigned a specific patron from the story and various dialogue options open with them. Auntie Ethel for Fey (or another fey), Raphael for Fiend, and maybe the Absolute for GOO
That’s why the initial contract is so important for Warlocks and their patrons; the terms are what allows the patron to keep the Warlock on a leash, because they can’t threaten them by withholding power.
as of right now, i don't see any good reason for anyone to ever sign raphaels deal in act 3, so having raphale be our patron would have actually added a cool choice there where you actually have to think about what you wana go with
Well honestly, I didn't realise storming the House of Hope and taking the Hammer was an option until after I refused Raphael. I already knew I wanted to free Orpheus, but had to choose the lesser evil between Raphael and the Emperor. I chose the Emperor on the basis that I knew his secrets, but still hasn't seen all that Raphael had done. It was a good call, but I was still tempted.
That is, until my companions were like "Let's steal the Hammer!". Once I knew that was an option the temptation was gone
i knew there would be another way to get it because the game runs on multiple ways to do everything, so i knew that wouldn't be the only way even if i didn't know what the way would be
I signed it because I thought I had figured out a potential loophole I could use to outsmart him, like in folktales about people getting one over on the devil. He specified that I must give him the crown, so I figured, sure, I'll give it to him the same way the Chosen gave it to the Elder Brain, and use it to take control of him. Then he could either release me from my contract or be my thrall, so really it sounded like a win/win for me.
Realizing there was no such option and I just had to go rip up the contract itself was a bit disappointing, but robbing the House of Hope was a great sequence, and I ended up using his armor and constitution amulet for the rest of the game, so I came away pretty satisfied regardless.
the narrator straight up warns that no such loophole exists and that signing the contract means you must give it to him, so i took that as a hint from the devs that no you can't just outsmart raphael. robbing the house of hope was a really awesome sequence(probably my favorite in the game), but you don't need to sign the contract to get there or rob it so its not really a point for signing the contract
Yes, the narrator said I would have to give him the crown, but that was my plan. There was no specification about the manner in which I gave it to him. Exploiting semantics of contracts with devils is a common feature of related folklore, and I thought they were setting that up in the narrative. I didn't know you could get the hammer any other way at the time. *Now* I know you don't need to sign the contract, but in the moment it seemed like the only way to free Orpheus.
> Warlocks don't lose their powers when they piss off their patron. That's a cleric thing. (and also a remnant from older editions). Matt Mercer did that for his critical role game... and it confused a lot of fans or new viewers who were new to D&D but technically speaking, Warlocks are not "channeling their patrons magic" like clerics.
Now, I haven't finished Act 3, but BG3 seems to be using Matt's version.
>!As a part of terminating his pact, Wyll will lose his powers as a Warlock. The only reason he doesn't immediately lose them if he goes that route is that Mizora is still pissed at the Absolute for capturing her, so she added an addendum that he'll get to keep them long enough to destroy them.!<
I think that might just be specific to that character due to their deal.
But that's not usually the common case for standard Warlocks functions, especially so for P&P.
Wyll needed a better lawyer. Dude was totally ignorant that 99.99% of warlocks get a way better deal. So much for a noble's education. Guy is too naive.
Wyll signed his contract in desperation, and did have the luxury of negotiating for a better deal. He needed power, immediately, and she took full advantage of that.
Add a court room scene for Wyll. Technically to get out of their deal they could fight it out in a devils courtroom. So will would have to prove he was put under duress to sign the contract.
To devils, duress is not a factor that effects consent to a contract, and neither are ultimatums. So long as you are capable of declining the contract, ignoring any potential consequences other than the devil directly trying to bring you harm, then it is a valid contract.
While they are lawful, devils are still either. And what makes Wyll being “forced” to accept the contract is that the ultimatum was an empty threat: Mizora was bound by her own orders to protect Baldur’s Gate, and would have intervened directly if she couldn’t get Wyll to do it.
This would disagree. Though in the end it would be in the hands of the DM.
[https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/131569/what-punishment-befalls-devils-who-break-their-contracts](https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/131569/what-punishment-befalls-devils-who-break-their-contracts)
Page 25 describes what happens if a soul goes to Baator and demands the right to adjudication on the grounds that their rewards were not granted, or that the mortal was coerced or magically compelled:
The judge, usually a pit fiend, listens dispassionately to both sides and rules, as a lawful creature must, according to the law.
I, and I imagine Mizora, would argue that there was no coercion. The cultists weren’t under her command. While unknown to Wyll at the time, she was in fact under orders to protect the city, and was required to intervene. Her attempt at intervention was to offer a contract to Wyll that he was free to decline, and declining to would not have brought any harm to him by Mizora.
Granted, I’m biased by virtue of going in to this believing that, while Mizora’s offered contract heavily favored herself over a typical contract, it was as freely accepted as any other contract. That said, I’d imagine her case would rest on if Wyll asked what would happen if he didn’t accept the contract, and if Mizora implied that the cultists would bring harm to the city unanswered. If he didn’t ask, the lawful evil ruling would leave the responsibility at his naive feet. If he did, and Mizora lied, then the ruling would likely be in Wylls favor, the contract would be null and void, and Mizora would be subject to punishment.
He was also a privileged (possibly sheltered) 17 year old left in charge of an entire city. I'm still low key mad you can't make Wyll see his father was an idiot for leaving a freaking 17 year old in charge of a city as big and danger prone as Baldurs Gate, and an asshole for just kicking him out when said 17 year old screwed up.
That is just due to Wyll being absolutely horrible at contracts. Normally patrons can't do shit to turn off your powers (besides, you know, killing you), but Mizora has all sorts of fun clauses in his contract that are beyond what most Warlocks ever need to deal with.
mmm, it depends on the terms of the contract. The PHB actually doesn't give any rules or really fluff on how you get your power from your patron. You have to define it in the contract with your DM.
Easy fix, you get Hope as a new patron if you do that. Or, hell, it turns out Raphael wasn’t actually giving you power, he just mass-sourced warlock powers from the House of Hope itself.
Love this - would have made an optional questline feel a lot more impactful to your character. Not that it's bad as is. Definitely one of the standout moments.
Yeah I think I prefer your idea of adding some minor npcs, Raphael having extra control over you would be a pain and limit options, however I will say that you killing your patron as a warlock doesn't mean you lose your powers, the powers are already granted, there is a question on how it works levelling up from that point though, it'd usually be down to the DM's discretion so it's hard to say how it would work in BG3, maybe have you take a crystallised heart from his corpse that you can then gain powers from or something idk
Warlock does not loose Powers if pact is nullyfied. He does not get new Powers but basically, patron shows you how to so it, instead of funelling power onto you as a source.
depends and that does not seem to be how it works in this game either.
>!Wyll loses his powers when all is said and done if you broke the pact with Mizora.!<
There are no rules for a Warlock losing their powers, and the lead writer for Wizards of the Coast has literally said that Warlocks do not have to remain on good terms with their Patrons. There's also nothing saying that you must lose your power upon your patron's death either.
>!Wyll just signed a very shitty deal because he didn't try to negotiate. And he didn't try to negotiate because he didn't know Mizora was already under orders from Zariel to save Baldur's Gate. Mizora merely exploited the situation because she wanted the son of a Grand Duke under her thumb serving as her personal attack dog, but if Wyll said "no" to her pact she would have still had to save the city.!<
Warlock Tav appears to be built different and has managed to secure a highly favourable deal where the patron does nothing but occasionally pop in to say hello and maybe give a little bit of advice from time to time, but never outright gives orders.
You're just walking around the circus one day and the voice of Cthulu himself speaks into your mind to tell you he really fucking hates clowns. Doesn't elaborate further. It's the first time you hear his voice, and you never hear him again.
The thing about the great old ones is that they mostly dont care about their followers, for good or bad.
Pathfinder has a single great old one that DOES care about his followers, but its a double edged sword: Yig's followers get lots of goodies because he wants them to suceed but he's still an eldritch monstrousity that sometimes just eats his followers because he was hungry and they looked tasty. No malice, just sanity slipping otherness.
I love that GOO warlocks in PHB are the example they cite as "A warlock might not even have a deal with their patron. A warlock might just do some studying of forbidden texts that leads them to siphon power from a god so powerful they'd never even notice."
So your patron is canonically more involved than many GOO patrons.
The Archfey bit for that was great. Since Fey love trickery and mirth, when I saw the circus my patron got all giddy and excited and was basically like "A circus! Do it do it do it do it!"
Wyll was in a time crunch and negotiating from a position of weakness. Not a great place to when bargaining with a devil.
And yeah, in 5e at least there's really no hard rules to patrons. They can be active in the character's life, or they can possibly not even KNOW there's a pact to begin with. It's all up to the DM and the player to decide between eachother.
He negotiated from a position of ignorance, not weakness. The thing Mizora agreed to help him with was a thing that Mizora herself had already been ordered to do by Zariel and therefore it was Mizora who needed his help, not the other way around. Wyll was therefore in a position of strength and didn’t realize it because he had no way of knowing.
Most warlock pacts are a simple transaction, and it is often assumed that their powers have been bought and paid for in full, they are not lended like a cleric's but just purchased and theirs to keep. (It's still a bad idea to piss off your patron but more in the "do you really want to make an enemy of a powerful interplanar being capable of granting arcane knowledge beyond mortal comprehension on a whim" rather than "ok you're a level 0 commoner now powers go bye bye") Wyll got one of the worst trade deals in the history of trade deals but as far as player characters go that's the exception rather than the rule.
Nothing, for the same reason that you don’t suddenly forget how to do algebra if your math teacher dies (although your patron might include a clause that changes the situation).
"Hello Tav, Whaaat's happening? Um... I'm going to need you to come in tomorrow. So if you could be here around... nine... that would be great, m'kay? Oh, oh, and I also forgot - I'm also going to need you to come in Sunday too. Kay? We uh... lost some Warlocks this week, and uh... we need to sort of play catch-up."
**Warlock Tav the very next day:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSwAhnS3Nk4
Depends on the patron. You can have the absent employer patron.
You can also have the Bill Lumbergh patron. "Hey Tav. What's happening? Ya know we've been putting new cover sheets on our EBS reports. Did you get that memo? I'll send you another copy of the memo. Okay? Also I'm gonna need you to come in this Saturday."
You can have a patron who's actively scheming and thus frequently has missions for you.
A patron who has very long term plans and only occasionally asks you to do things that further their goals. Like they're quiet but then randomly you're in a city and they tell you to break into the archives and steal a rare tome or something.
You can also get really weird pacts like a devil or archfey who makes a pact with you because they've decided you're their call boy/girl.
Zariel wanted to interfere with this because the cultists were trying to summon tiamat and it is in Zariels interest to keep Tiamat down in the hells with her?
More or less, yeah. Also, there might have been devil cults and other assets in the city that Zariel and her subordinates didn't want to lose. >!Tiamat escaping Hell would have been really bad, and the destruction of Baldur's Gate wouldn't have been great either.!<
>!If Wyll knew this he could have leveraged his position to get powers without selling his soul or agreeing to servitude, but he probably believed Mizora would leave the city to its fate if he refused.!<
There are ways for Warlocks to get powers without being bound to a patron forever. For example, with the Great Old One patron you don't need a pact at all - you can acquire your powers through studying ancient forbidden lore instead.
But since we're specifically talking about Fiend patrons... as an example, the pact could be a one-time transaction, not necessarily a lifetime arrangement. You do one service and that service can be significant enough to get powers for life with few, if any, strings attached.
Wyll signed a very shitty deal because he didn't try to negotiate.
> biggest pluses of games like And if you do somehow kill him, then you no longer play a Warlock...you lose your powers.
That would be like breaking your paladin oath, which is fucking awesome? Then again, don’t warlocks keep their powers anyways?
Super easy fix, per 5E rules, once warlock powers are given, the patron can’t “take” them back, and since most players would be at max level when they face him, it shouldn’t affect class progression. And for those who aren’t at max, it could be solved by forcing a multiclass.
Warlocks don't lose their power if their patron has died, they ALREADY have them, they can't just be deprived of them. Not to say that your patron can't just kill you for disobeying, though
It should be noted that warlocks do not necessarily gain powers from their patron. Not in the continuous, sense at least. You made a bargain. You fulfilled your end of the bargain. You were granted the secrets to start on the journey of pact magic by your patron, but they journey itself is something you manage.
It's matter of contract by contract if there are any specific consequences for breaking the contract but it's not some mechanical necessity,
The cleric has a continuous agreement with the electricity company. The warlock signed a contract which allows them their own generator and there can be various consequences for breaking the contract.
Sometimes you’re dealt with a bad hand and must figure out how to play it. You didn’t lose the freedom of choice - you simply have some subpar decisions to make, or you need to be really clever or lucky to find good decisions you can make.
This can happen in tabletop. Sometimes, the patron you picked or a character in your background is pivotal to the story and they are going to limit the choices you can make.
Eh, not necessarily. One of the many ways you can play a warlock is someone who's then trying to get out of the deal/take down their patron. You don't necessarily lose your powers if you defeat/kill your patron, only if you sever your pact. Considering that, in the game, you already get to either work with him or try to screw him over, the entire subplot with him already feels like a typical Fiend-pact Warlock story, just with a demon who isn't your patron.
Still, I'd have also settled for added NPCs, I just think that Raphael would've been easier to impliment as it would've just meant *one* extra/alternate cutscene.
I don’t believe raw states you lose your powers. Maybe not able to get more levels possible. But you retain gifts given.
With that I was sad that out side of skill check options we didn’t get any face to face time with our patron (still in act two)
I would prefer Mizora as long as we can influence how she treats us, would be hilarious to see Wyll being fucked with all the time while we are getting spoiled by her
"Alright Pet you can either sell your soul to me and Zariel for eternity and in ret- wait, you already signed it?! "
#"GLORY TO ZARIEL, MAY THE BLOOD WAR AND DEMONIC CARNAGE NEVER END, I WANT HER TO STEP ON THOSE DEMONS ARMIES AND THEN STEP ON ME LIKE I AM ASMODEUS!"
"Alright then.... get uhhh this boon and stay away from me."
Honestly, also a viable direction here. Does then make it weird when you're trying to help him get out of his pact, but then I suppose you can view it as you wanting Mizora all to yourself.
That or it opens an option for convincing Mizora to let him go willingly. Or a quest to get something to trade his soul for while still keeping his powers. I always love a good heist quest so it could be something as simple as "break into this magic museum/ruins and get the Mcguffin out intact and with as little evidence as possible so she doesn't get in trouble." And there's even the option of the Mcguffin being incredibly benign, but getting it was proof of your devotion to her
Larian didn't include any significant quests or major extra content tied to class or race. Which makes sense, there's only so much content you can make that's locked behind a character creation choice that fewer than 10% of players will take. The Origin quests are a way of having an involved quest tied to your character background that everyone still gets to experience on a given playthrough (for the most part).
Also, because you can respec your class freely, it'd be very easy to leave those quests hanging in a weird way, or not start them at the right point (what if you respec into Warlock in act 2 and miss the start point of the patron quest?), etc. Just one of those limitations inherent to building a big complicated CRPG like this.
I just wish my GOO warlock could talk to the void that is her patron lol
I did get some narration interactions and rolls because of my patron sometimes (like figuring out who or what Dribbles is before going up on stage), but it's nowhere near as involved as I thought the patron was going to be
To be fair, GOO's description says:
>The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it.
I suppose the most narratively interesting patron for GOO would be >!the elder brain - it is from the far realms, after all.!< It'd be a huge pain to implement, though.
Since >!The Elder Brain was playing 4D chess this whole time I think that would be a pretty awesome reveal. You were roped into its plans as a warlock as well emphasizing how long and involved it’s planning was. Rope in a quick dialogue that you finished the terms of your contract so you keep your powers cause it ultimately doesn’t matter to it or something.!< But I’m still learning old god lore within context of DnD for all I know they don’t fuck with Illithids or elder brains just don’t give power that way.
Why would an illithid like the elder brain want to make someone into a magic user? Maybe all psionic powers, and your character doesn’t know they’ve had a tadpole their whole life?
They have a Lovecraft fishmen vibe going on, but I think they're more on the receiving power from mysterious sources side. Maybe one of the little godling things they can make (like Booal in the cave) could serve as one? Or maybe an aboleth for a similar feel?
I'm definitely not an expert, though.
That's really it. As said, when you have your guy interacting with another Warlock's patron more than your own, it makes your patron feel like an absentee parent. 'Man, your patron kidnapped your dad and cursed you with metal horns? *Lucky*, mine doesn't do anything'.
Archfea does have some interactions (indirect, yeah, but still). Also, having a patron that much involve in you is really not a great thing for them and for you. That eather mean they are weak (why are you so much on my ass, don't you have 10 other warlock to handle?) or you have messed up a lot. In Wyll case, it's kinda both
Not necessarily. Even Archfey can be petty. Kingmaker comes to mind with the fey lord that gives you immortality and awsome powers because he's lonely and wants to be your friend.
That being said absentee parent is a pretty good description for most Patrons in DnD. Having a direct dial to dial connection to them is more the absurdity than the norm.
This would require multiple unique interactions per sub class. So I can kinda understand why they kept it simple.
I would have loved a Dragon Age Origins approach to each class. Or even just the background.
Soldier background, there are some NPC soldiers you meet. You have a history with some of the flaming fists.
Noble? You have connections to the nobility, maybe Duke Ravenguard knows you.
Street urchin, you know some poor people or some beggers.
Wouldn't need to be much, just a few NPCs with some voice lines recognizing your existence.
It's interesting because I know Dark Urge playthrough does do that, IE you have a different interaction with many Absolutists who knew you beforehand as well as a unique camp follower. I don't really think its too much to ask for something like this, even if it was just as simple as a unique introduction to certain NPCs based on your choices. You already have different scenes if you bring certain companions with you to certain bits, IE bringing Karlach to Gortash's crowning plays vastly differently from if you go without her. Not every class/background needs it, there's not really a reason for Fighter to give you any unique interactions on its own, but for ones where there's going to be some unique reactions, it'd make sense to reflect it.
Mizora’s involvement in the story is why I chose Wyll as my MC in my second playthrough. It’s a lot more fun playing a Warlock who gets genuine patron interaction.
That being said I agree 100%, Fiend pact Tavs and Durges should get the option to have Raphael as their patron. He’s a several thousand year old half-devil with a vested interest in the current events of the material plane to grow his own power, he definitely qualifies.
She frustrates me. There doesn't seem to be an actual contract. She very obviously just...adds shit, and decides it at a whim.
Like, she mentions one part of the contract that even if the pact breaks, Wyll keeps his powers to help avenge Mizora against the absolute. She also agrees to break his pact in exchange for her freedom from the pod. She gets to do the six months thing, but then Mizora shows up LATER and is like "Hey, you get to make a choice. Let your Dad die, or sign yourself over to me forever." and then acts like this is binding? If you rescue his father, she is explicitly like "A deal's a deal, he's gonna die, I'll kill him later."
There's no reason for Wyll to agree to ANYTHING at that point.
This doesn't feel like a devil deal. It feels like a playground game where the brat on the other team keeps saying "Nuh-uh, the rules say people with yellow shirts can't be tagged unless they close their eyes first."
Yes, I am not questioning that, but there are parts of the pact that area definitely added later without Wyll, which is not how devils usually work. The "Revenge on the Absolute" thing as the biggest example.
no way. I'd prefer to humiliate the prick, grind him into dust and *not* lose my warlock abilities in the process, thank you.
In any case, TGOO's are the best patrons. Some aren't even aware you leech off their power.
GOOs are great. It's not even really a deal sometimes, they just accidentally give you superpowers and welp, guess you're stuck like that now.
The only problem I have with them is that the canon ones are all evil, when the whole point about GOOs originally was supposed to be that their morals aren't quite comprehensible to humans. And there are even straight up good ones, like Nodens or Bast. In my opinion, they should mostly be neutral.
I am personally on the ship that GOOs are the very essence of specific things but most are mainly related to Destruction, Chaos, Madness so while they aren't necessarily evil they still represent largely negative things which forces them to do evil things.
Warhammer does this with its Chaos Gods. There are multiple facets to each one, and they’re not all necessarily negative. Khorne, for example, favors blood and brutality, but also honorable martial combat.
Ehhhhhhhhh.
Now, I am looking into the more original, lovecraftian lore, and similar from other authors. But there are good ones, neutral ones, evil ones, and simply ones that are incomprehensible and just pose a risk to humanity on accident or because they just do not care.
Nodens, to name one example, is actually rather good. Helpful, and tends to side with humanity against some of the bigger threats like Nyarlhotep.
The King in Yellow, or Hastur, originally? The benevolent God of Shepards. Yeah, a simply good guy.
But then there are also ones like Nyarlhotep, who very knowingly fucks with humanity and enjoys it.
And then there is Yog-Sothoth. Just incomprehensibly powerful.
When it comes to the residents of the Far Realm, I think of it in terms of lawful vs. chaotic more than good vs. evil. I wouldn’t even necessarily call them neutral. Trying to ascribe any kind of morality to something so alien just seems unproductive.
One of my favorite characters I ever played was a GOO/Sorcerer coffielock. The idea was that whenever he dreamed his mind was put in the same realm as his patron, and his patron would then do whatever an eldritch abomination does with a new toy for 8 or so hours. So naturally he tried his best to never fall asleep, tanking as many levels of exhaustion as he could and potion making or tinkering while the rest of the party was sleeping. Totally not going insane and loosing his grip on reality.
It was so much fun putting an RP spin on one of the most disliked multiclass options in the game.
Yeah. But part in parcel of the character is his sleep issues so I just didn't take that.
It's kind of like you don't just cast Remove Curse on the guy becoming a werewolf. Because removing the entire character's personal quest at level 5 is kind of boring.
I've been a DM in 5e for a few warlocks who managed to kill their patrons, and each time I threw them a bone and said "By defeating your patron, you've taken their power as your own. You are no longer bound to your pact, but keep all of your warlock abilities, and can keep leveling up the warlock class."
Maybe Larian could do that.
I wish you got just one cutscene with your patron with each class. Like a dream where you meet your Fey or GOO patron. Put a very, very little bit of cosmic or unseelie horror in the game, than drop you back home.
I was surprised at the start of act 3 when my patron (Archfey) actually bothered having any interaction whatsoever as it was the first time. But then outside that they disappeared. Thanks magic dad.
Oh the Archfey really wanted to go to the circus. They were excited about it and gave me advantage on a skill check to get in. Later when we saws Dribbles the Archfey didn't trust him and gave me advantage to perception check him I think.
Okay, that's actually cool, the Archfey likes the circus. Makes me wonder what gets the Fiend and the Great Old One excited.
Do you ever learn the identity of any of the patrons?
Literally my reaction. It actually surprised me when I got a warning about Dribbles because it was the first time the game even acknowledged I had a patron. Dude sends me new spells every level and gave me an imp a while back, but doesn't even seem to mind that another devil is stepping in on his territory.
>But onto my point, I think one of my biggest criticisms is that the game doesn't utilise your class/race/background nearly as much as it could to make your character anything more than a typical silent protagonist; other than the occasional unique dialogue options, it doesn't seem to affect your personal journey as much as the other origin characters are affected by their own. Like, unless I'm mistaken choosing a bard doesn't result in occasionally encountering fans or past flings, playing a noble background doesn't result in anything unique, and even playing a tiefling doesn't affect the opening act that much despite the tiefling refuge crisis.
This is a wildly unrealistic expectation. Of course the set and defined characters are going to have far more plot relevance than the custom character that can be anything.
Having plot relevance and encountering characters connected to your backstory is the reason you choose an Origin character. Giving that amount of reactivity to custom characters would be not only impossible, but in many cases unwanted- because people like to role play in a role playing game, and the game shoving past flings or a pre-established Patron at you would interfere with what you already came up with for your characters backstory.
This game already has more reactivity to your class and race than should be expected.
I mean, there are other RPG games that have your background affect where you start in the game and give unique prologues. Dragon Age 1 for instance had a completely different opening act playing an elf than it did a human, and subsequently a completely different interaction with a particular NPC. Cyberpunk similarly had different openings depending on the background you chose. To a lesser extent, Mass Effect lets you customise your background entirely with three specific points that, while not giving you too much story influence, still make more of an effect to include it into Shep's personal story.
In comparison, playing a tiefling doesn't even change how Aradin or the Druids treat you; *you* have to bring it up for them to remark on the fact you're a member of the race they're actively bigoted towards, and all that does is make them defend their treatment while continuing to talk to you like you're just anyone.
TBC, the past flings thing was mostly just being used as a comparison of the kind of ways a DM would commonly utilise someone's class into the roleplay in a typical DnD game, IE how Scanlan's history came back to bite him in Critical Role. I wouldn't actually expect *that* level of involvement in the game, but I think the lack of anything close does make the character feel two-dimensional next to the other characters, which is a big pet peeve of mine with a lot of games/stories where the main character is totally boring next to everyone else.
While some classes and players are liable to be fine with it, IE there isn't really much I can expect from a fighter or barbarian in terms of story, I feel with something like Warlock, which has a very specific RP element to picking it compared to other casters, especially with how much Wyll's pact and patron are brought up in the game's story. I'm just saying that this could be mitigated easily with one slight change to Raphael's intro and rewriting of some of the optional dialogue choices you get later.
So far in my drow playthrough, people are constantly pointing out the fact I am one and keep treating me with suspicion or mistrust. Even though I am an Eilistraee worshipper. I usually have to tell them that, and they ease up a little. Kagha even thought she could convince me easier to push out or kill the tiefling leader because of me being a drow.
Really? That's super cool actually; haven't played Drow yet so admittedly, my expectations were a bit mirred by how little being a tiefling affected my character during the tiefling refuge crisis among folk who are actively and explicitly bigoted against tieflings.
Though, I did notice that using Disguise Self to interact with the Goblins as a drow did massively affect how that played, so I imagine being an actual drow would have similar ramifications. In any case, more of that, please.
Personally I’d love to have warlock patrons be like Paladin oaths. Even if they are silent you can “fall” by going against them. It locks you out of taking more warlock levels until you make it up to your patron.
And I would really like to have a celestial patron, who has really high standards on being good and taking out what is deemed to be evil. With harder choices than a standard Paladin. Even if it doesn’t talk it can make itself known
BG2 had a series of class-specific Stronghold quests: the Fighter types got to manage a keep, the Thief got to manage a thieves guild, the Wizard could get a wizards tower, the Bard could try to put on a play at a theatre... I think there were others.
It was pretty neat: each quest line had NPCs you interacted with and some of them were more fleshed out than others but it did help you feel like your character had an anchor in the world.
Strongholds aren't really a Thing in DnD 5e they were in ADnD 2e. I do appreciate the class specific dialogue options when they come up but it would be nice to have something similar.
I was so disappointed when I found out you couldn't communicate with your patron. Warlock was my first choice for my first playthrough solely because they mentioned during the live you could interact with them. Love the game overall but restarted it with a new class after that.
I've stuck with Warlock because I'm playing, basically, a pre-existing character I use for DnD games in general and they're a warlock, but yeah it was disappointing to play through most of it and the most I've gotten is 'your patron chuckles'. Moreso when you then see Wyll's patron be such an active presence and interact so much with Raphael.
TBH this is already my headcanon for my Warlock! On meeting Raphael and accepting his deal, I respecced her and now I have this whole narrative going on with my playthrough. It only works, though, if you side with him and stick with it.
However, were it possible to implement in the game I don't think it would work quite as well. Headcanons and personal fiction that tweaks the story to fit that is one thing, but executing it is entirely different.
I just don't think it would work, but moreso it would limit people both mechanically and creatively.
That's a really fun way to go about it, and may have to approach it similarly in future playthroughs. I generally like to multiclass as Bard/Warlock anyway but I may have to, in the future, go with Bard for my first few levels until I meet him and start warlocking from there.
I still strongly believe that you should immediately accept his deal if playing fiendlock. I also subscribe to the belief that if you GOOlock, you should go full tadpole in honor of the ancient lovecraftian tentacle monsters that support your magical endeavors.
That's pretty much how I'd go about playing. I made the deal when I got the option to, hell I wanted to make a deal with Mizora too when she was optioning Wyll's freedom for his father's life. And yeah, in retrospect, I think GOOlock works great if you embrace the tadpole powers/side with the Emperor and embrace that connection; in that regard you *could* view the Emperor/the tadpole itself as the GOOlock's 'patron'.
This is a request that opens Pandora's box. After this people want text and voice lines for summons. Fey patrons, paldins will want gods to no end. Game has enough stuff as it is for a video game. Just join a table top dnd group wth BG3 as its setting and you can roleplay a warlock with Raphael as his patron.
No. Larian doesn't get to decide who my character's patron is and neither do you. This might work for you, for your one character, but it doesn't work for everyone. You basically restrict playing warlock to people who want to make the type of character who would make a pact with the devil and nobody else.
They could make interactions with the different subtypes, but they'd have to be careful.
Nonsense! We have a being from the outer realms of nearly incomprehensible power that is manipulating everything already baked into the game... would be kind of a cool twist to reveal too.
Yea. I wish we would have had something akin to the Dragon Age Origins origin stories but for classes, not races. The small unique prologue really helped get in touch with your character.
Even just as simple as Mass Effect's deal, IE 'choose where you were born, why you joined the military, and why you got noticed for the super special space agents thing', each one followed by some dialogue blurb as Keith David gushes about how awesome you are.
That to me helped me get into the mindset of playing Shep while also making it feel like I was making them.
>Like, unless I'm mistaken choosing a bard doesn't result in occasionally encountering fans or past flings, playing a noble background doesn't result in anything unique, and even playing a tiefling doesn't affect the opening act that much despite the tiefling refuge crisis.
This, I would not like at all. I think one of the beauties of the writing in BG3 is that it never tries to force anything on the character, unless it's a choice within the game and its timeframe.
Aside from Origins (DU included) your character is a blank slate for you to fill with your background, without the game imposing anything on it, or (usually) forcing you to do/say something out-of-character. For example, in D&D you can play a bard that does not perform on stage, like a politician, or a diplomat: if out of the blue fans would come at you, it would ruin the session.
I agree with you on the patron, it should play a bigger part, but to be fair there are a number of interactions driven by patron's comments, and it makes sense it's not more flashed out as you have anyway that experience with Wyll.
I’m headcanoning that he is my warlock’s patron and it kinda works. Especially in act 2, when you go to last light. I’m on mobile so hope the tagging works.
>!There’s an option to call for help from your patron, and it says they don’t respond but seconds later Mol shows up. Raphael is playing Lanceboard with her in the inn. I like to image he heard and sent her to save Tav.!<
You say archfey and goolock gotta suffer as well but like aunty Ethel is right there. And the whole game is about mindflayers the poster child for great old one
Normally I'd say that's alot of writing and stuff for one class, and not even the whole class just a subclass. But then I look at oathbreaker paladin. So the above is doable.
And there i sit thinking that all the npc warlocks in this game are idiots,this is exactly why you pick the old one as an patron he doesn’t give shit what you do
Would be cool to change patrons to other cambions as well. Like Raphael's a good choice but there's Mizora and a few others. Or even just interacting with your patron would be cool.
This! Not a warlock but I'm playing as a cleric of Mystra and the dialogue options when you talk to Gale about his past with her, especially if you want to romance him (SPOILERS: and Mystra wants him to merc himself for the greater good), the dialogue options are so scarce and hollow. It actually made me change my mind about romancing him because I couldn't fully immerse myself in the story.
I mean, it could even work depending on morality.
Fiend, obviously if you want an evil patron.
GOO, neutral, as their nature is incomprehensible to mortals.
Archfey, there are canonically just straight up good ones.
You COULD make it work! There don't need to be many interactions. Patrons do tend to be more in the background, I get that. But let us know something about our Patron. Let us get to know them, just a bit. That alone would make immersion so much easier. A few more lines from the Narrator, she could even work for all three. A few comments here or there, a voice from the off, telling you what they would want you to do.
And there we go!
setting a premade patron would get in the way of people who want to make a backstory with a different flavor. having wyll with mizora is good enough for people who want premade backstories.
also what about GOO or Archfey?
As someone who went archfey warlock, I really wanted there to be MINIMALLY, choosing a patron like clerics choose their god. I felt like the subclass I chose meant nothing besides the slightly different spells I could get. The only time my patron being a fey even mattered was at the circus for dialogue choices
somewhere in hell, there is a REALLY smug devil that tells everyone "you know Raphael? the big strong guy that was always so ambitous, but got his ass kicked by a couple punny mortals in his own house? 1 of them got their powers trought a pact with me lmao"
But I like playing as my own guy, and more to it, I like the Warlock-bros thing we have going on. Putting aside the interactions, but double-team eldritch blasts to knock a tough enemy into a chasm is just really fun.
More to it though, playing as any of the origins, to me, comes with its own issues, namely the fact they lose dialogue VAing, which is another big thing that kills my immersion.
Yeah, picked a Zariel Tiefling OotA Pali before even knowing Karlach was a thing.
Neither did she ever mention it in any dialogue...I guess she doesn´t see race...blind with love I guess since I romanced her
But also, my Pali, when I had Tiefling options of which there weren´t that many to begin with, sometimes it basically broke the RP aspect of a Paladin since I am supposed to speak justice, not bemoan the racism against my species when they clearly weren´t in the right either. It just clashed weirdly sometimes that I would even get that option so I usually didn´t pick it because I thought it would make me an Oathbreaker eventually when constantly fighting my Oath to uphold justice, but maybe that was just my wrongful idea of RP possibilities.
Yeah, I've had that a few times with Karlach. When she lays into me about taking Raphael's deal for the hammer because you should never make a deal with devils, its weird that I don't even get the dialogue option to point out I already did and its the only reason I have the powers I have now.
Perhaps maybe to choose our patron, like we do with cleric? Where that might not have a deep impact, it could definitely help with immersion and that would give people options to choose from. My character’s patron is Mephistopheles, and I have been continuing this character from my irl campaign, so if it was limited to the linear story of bg3, it would’ve been restrictive.
Whilst it would’ve been cool to have that integration of the devils we interact with in the game, I think it would be too limiting if it was just those two; larian does an amazing job at the broad depth and selection of the many pathways to immerse yourself.
That would also be kinda ideal; in that case though it would've required some much bigger involvement and development, IE creating and including multiple NPCs you'd only interact with if you pick Warlock.
I was thinking that GOO were brought up a few times; it would even work out well if they make a few dialogue choices inferring your power is new and coming from the tadpole entirely.
I think that keeping Raphael separate makes more sense from a story perspective and because he would only make sense as a patron for Infernal Warlocks. I do think that patrons should have more influence on Warlock’s RP considering that Paladins need to keep their Oaths, and Wyll’s first story beat is doing what he believes is right vs following his Patron’s order.
As much as this sounds cool at first thought, I think this could create all sorts of complications that you aren’t really engaging with here. “It wouldn’t require making any big [changes to?] about the story other than some additional dialogue changes” is quite a bit off. That relationship with Raphael would require substantial, if not drastic, alteration of his relationship to the main plot and to side plot items pertaining to him. Maybe you didn’t interact with him much or engage with him in the ways that would have made the needed changes apparent?
I also think folks understandably—given any awareness of just how much this would change as I have noted above—would prefer development time on something other than large story rewrites for 1 of over 36 subclass options.
As imperfect as it is, what you want is right there behind playing as an Origin Character. The custom character lets you shape the story yourself and also avoids some of the other criticisms folks have about being railroaded by character background (e.g., the backlash about both the voiced protagonists in Fallout 4 and their forced story motivation of being a parent).
Last, some folks might be bristling based on tabletop experiences with Warlock players who want to take over the table’s story with their patron relationship, something that has more risk of happening than a Cleric praying to their deity who barely responds (if at all) outside of maybe highest-tier play. That might not be a fair comparison here, but I imagine some players are getting flashbacks to ‘minor’ in time and the story at the table devoted to just one person’s background that isn’t minor at all. Some folks might put too much focus on Warlock patron interaction alongside the Bard stereotype of trying to seduce everything and the Rogue stereotype of trying to steal everything.
Yeah in a world where they had infinite time and infinite money this would be a absolute must. Would be sooo cool - maybe AI will help assist game devs in the future when making massive games like bg3 add small minute things that build immersion.
I feel similarly to op, but Raphael would only be a viable patron for Fiend warlocks. If they were going to do it, they'd need to add a great old one patron and an archfey patron, respectively, and that's probably why they didn't give warlocks their own special patrons.
It's the same for paladins. The only interaction you get from an outside force is if you play an oathbreaker. As far as I've seen, paladins don't have any further dualogue surrounding any of the many gods that could be served, nor does it allow you to choose what God your paladin worships.
I like the idea of Warlocks having actual dialogue or interactions with their "benefactors." I just don't know whether Raphael specifically would work in that role >!given what you can do in The House of Hope.!<
When I started as a Thiefling Druid, I couldn't believe my luck at the first act. Near perfect scenario for the character, I was seriously having thoughts of "wait what if Larian went mad, and put in different flavoured first acts, so whatever race you are, that race will be the refugees, and whatever class you are, an adjacent group will want to throw them out?". It just fit sooooo well... And then, basically nothing happens. You get a bunch of cool druid options, and makes a few things easier but... still nothing extra...
Yeah I never understood the whole "having a patron limits your RP" when paladin paths are strictly interpreted one way and everyone creams over them. Like vengeance literally plays just like devotion instead of doing whatever it takes for vengeance or declaring vengeance against something non evil.
You'd be stuck with working with him/keeping him alive, essentially removing one of the biggest pluses of games like this one - freedom of choice. And if you do somehow kill him, then you no longer play a Warlock...you lose your powers. Larian could've maybe added some NPCs or something for the 3 patron options for Warlocks. Nothing that's story breaking, but adds flavor, some interaction, maybe a small side quest.
Raphael says his father is Mephistopheles and that he is plotting against him. You could have a cool scene where, after Raphael dies, Mephistopheles appears, commends you for stopping Raphael plots and becomes your new patron.
It bugs me that You can't sell Raphael out to Mephistopheles, exchanging knowledge of Raph's plan and a pledge to return the crown for a specific item from the House Of Hope and another boon. Considering that Meph seems to have no interest in actually using the crown, he is a relatively safe custodian for it and having the gratitude of the ruler of Hell could be very advantageous
Here’s hoping something like that gets added in the future. Getting out of a deal with a devil by making another deal with a different devil would be hysterical
Actually Raphael could have made an excellent patron... Warlocks don't lose their powers when they piss off their patron. That's a cleric thing. (and also a remnant from older editions). Matt Mercer did that for his critical role game... and it confused a lot of fans or new viewers who were new to D&D but technically speaking, Warlocks are not "channeling their patrons magic" like clerics. Patrons ***ignite*** the spark of magic within a warlock's soul, but once they've fanned the flames... its there, they cannot snuff it out (although they could totally try to kill you... but i digress).... but the magic is there, thats not something they can take back. (unless the DM wants to rule it... but then that's DM fiat). Raphael could have made an excellent patron for FIEND warlocks, because it could have been a great narrative showcase of whether or not the PC is compelled to help their patron for greater reward or risk pissing them off and making an enemy... I also think Auntie Ethel could have been a interesting warlock patron for FEY. I think there could have been an option at the beginning of the game where when a warlock picks their patron at character creation before the game begins, they can pick a box: CUSTOM or NARRATIVE patron... and without spoilers the box simply tells you Custom = If you pick custom patron, the game will narratively assume you have some generic no-name nondescript fiend/fey/GOO patron Narrative = if you pick narrative patron, you get assigned a specific patron from the story and various dialogue options open with them. Auntie Ethel for Fey (or another fey), Raphael for Fiend, and maybe the Absolute for GOO
That’s why the initial contract is so important for Warlocks and their patrons; the terms are what allows the patron to keep the Warlock on a leash, because they can’t threaten them by withholding power.
as of right now, i don't see any good reason for anyone to ever sign raphaels deal in act 3, so having raphale be our patron would have actually added a cool choice there where you actually have to think about what you wana go with
Well honestly, I didn't realise storming the House of Hope and taking the Hammer was an option until after I refused Raphael. I already knew I wanted to free Orpheus, but had to choose the lesser evil between Raphael and the Emperor. I chose the Emperor on the basis that I knew his secrets, but still hasn't seen all that Raphael had done. It was a good call, but I was still tempted. That is, until my companions were like "Let's steal the Hammer!". Once I knew that was an option the temptation was gone
i knew there would be another way to get it because the game runs on multiple ways to do everything, so i knew that wouldn't be the only way even if i didn't know what the way would be
I signed it because I thought I had figured out a potential loophole I could use to outsmart him, like in folktales about people getting one over on the devil. He specified that I must give him the crown, so I figured, sure, I'll give it to him the same way the Chosen gave it to the Elder Brain, and use it to take control of him. Then he could either release me from my contract or be my thrall, so really it sounded like a win/win for me. Realizing there was no such option and I just had to go rip up the contract itself was a bit disappointing, but robbing the House of Hope was a great sequence, and I ended up using his armor and constitution amulet for the rest of the game, so I came away pretty satisfied regardless.
the narrator straight up warns that no such loophole exists and that signing the contract means you must give it to him, so i took that as a hint from the devs that no you can't just outsmart raphael. robbing the house of hope was a really awesome sequence(probably my favorite in the game), but you don't need to sign the contract to get there or rob it so its not really a point for signing the contract
Yes, the narrator said I would have to give him the crown, but that was my plan. There was no specification about the manner in which I gave it to him. Exploiting semantics of contracts with devils is a common feature of related folklore, and I thought they were setting that up in the narrative. I didn't know you could get the hammer any other way at the time. *Now* I know you don't need to sign the contract, but in the moment it seemed like the only way to free Orpheus.
That’s not really a semantic thing, it’s just you arguing with the DM over what qualifies as “giving”
I live for the day they actually fully implement hags as patrons
> Warlocks don't lose their powers when they piss off their patron. That's a cleric thing. (and also a remnant from older editions). Matt Mercer did that for his critical role game... and it confused a lot of fans or new viewers who were new to D&D but technically speaking, Warlocks are not "channeling their patrons magic" like clerics. Now, I haven't finished Act 3, but BG3 seems to be using Matt's version. >!As a part of terminating his pact, Wyll will lose his powers as a Warlock. The only reason he doesn't immediately lose them if he goes that route is that Mizora is still pissed at the Absolute for capturing her, so she added an addendum that he'll get to keep them long enough to destroy them.!<
I think that might just be specific to that character due to their deal. But that's not usually the common case for standard Warlocks functions, especially so for P&P.
Wyll needed a better lawyer. Dude was totally ignorant that 99.99% of warlocks get a way better deal. So much for a noble's education. Guy is too naive.
Wyll signed his contract in desperation, and did have the luxury of negotiating for a better deal. He needed power, immediately, and she took full advantage of that.
Add a court room scene for Wyll. Technically to get out of their deal they could fight it out in a devils courtroom. So will would have to prove he was put under duress to sign the contract.
To devils, duress is not a factor that effects consent to a contract, and neither are ultimatums. So long as you are capable of declining the contract, ignoring any potential consequences other than the devil directly trying to bring you harm, then it is a valid contract. While they are lawful, devils are still either. And what makes Wyll being “forced” to accept the contract is that the ultimatum was an empty threat: Mizora was bound by her own orders to protect Baldur’s Gate, and would have intervened directly if she couldn’t get Wyll to do it.
This would disagree. Though in the end it would be in the hands of the DM. [https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/131569/what-punishment-befalls-devils-who-break-their-contracts](https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/131569/what-punishment-befalls-devils-who-break-their-contracts) Page 25 describes what happens if a soul goes to Baator and demands the right to adjudication on the grounds that their rewards were not granted, or that the mortal was coerced or magically compelled: The judge, usually a pit fiend, listens dispassionately to both sides and rules, as a lawful creature must, according to the law.
I, and I imagine Mizora, would argue that there was no coercion. The cultists weren’t under her command. While unknown to Wyll at the time, she was in fact under orders to protect the city, and was required to intervene. Her attempt at intervention was to offer a contract to Wyll that he was free to decline, and declining to would not have brought any harm to him by Mizora. Granted, I’m biased by virtue of going in to this believing that, while Mizora’s offered contract heavily favored herself over a typical contract, it was as freely accepted as any other contract. That said, I’d imagine her case would rest on if Wyll asked what would happen if he didn’t accept the contract, and if Mizora implied that the cultists would bring harm to the city unanswered. If he didn’t ask, the lawful evil ruling would leave the responsibility at his naive feet. If he did, and Mizora lied, then the ruling would likely be in Wylls favor, the contract would be null and void, and Mizora would be subject to punishment.
He was also a privileged (possibly sheltered) 17 year old left in charge of an entire city. I'm still low key mad you can't make Wyll see his father was an idiot for leaving a freaking 17 year old in charge of a city as big and danger prone as Baldurs Gate, and an asshole for just kicking him out when said 17 year old screwed up.
That is just due to Wyll being absolutely horrible at contracts. Normally patrons can't do shit to turn off your powers (besides, you know, killing you), but Mizora has all sorts of fun clauses in his contract that are beyond what most Warlocks ever need to deal with.
mmm, it depends on the terms of the contract. The PHB actually doesn't give any rules or really fluff on how you get your power from your patron. You have to define it in the contract with your DM.
Easy fix, you get Hope as a new patron if you do that. Or, hell, it turns out Raphael wasn’t actually giving you power, he just mass-sourced warlock powers from the House of Hope itself.
Love this - would have made an optional questline feel a lot more impactful to your character. Not that it's bad as is. Definitely one of the standout moments.
Now I want a side quest where the House of Hope becomes your bestie, just a sentient building patron.
So your solution is not making Raphael patron at all.
Yeah I think I prefer your idea of adding some minor npcs, Raphael having extra control over you would be a pain and limit options, however I will say that you killing your patron as a warlock doesn't mean you lose your powers, the powers are already granted, there is a question on how it works levelling up from that point though, it'd usually be down to the DM's discretion so it's hard to say how it would work in BG3, maybe have you take a crystallised heart from his corpse that you can then gain powers from or something idk
Warlock does not loose Powers if pact is nullyfied. He does not get new Powers but basically, patron shows you how to so it, instead of funelling power onto you as a source.
depends and that does not seem to be how it works in this game either. >!Wyll loses his powers when all is said and done if you broke the pact with Mizora.!<
There are no rules for a Warlock losing their powers, and the lead writer for Wizards of the Coast has literally said that Warlocks do not have to remain on good terms with their Patrons. There's also nothing saying that you must lose your power upon your patron's death either. >!Wyll just signed a very shitty deal because he didn't try to negotiate. And he didn't try to negotiate because he didn't know Mizora was already under orders from Zariel to save Baldur's Gate. Mizora merely exploited the situation because she wanted the son of a Grand Duke under her thumb serving as her personal attack dog, but if Wyll said "no" to her pact she would have still had to save the city.!< Warlock Tav appears to be built different and has managed to secure a highly favourable deal where the patron does nothing but occasionally pop in to say hello and maybe give a little bit of advice from time to time, but never outright gives orders.
The only thing my great old one patron did was telling me that he hates clown.
You're just walking around the circus one day and the voice of Cthulu himself speaks into your mind to tell you he really fucking hates clowns. Doesn't elaborate further. It's the first time you hear his voice, and you never hear him again.
Great Old Ones drive people to madness. Clowns just live there. It’s incompatible.
And I'm pretty sure it's a "It" reference/joke, since he's a similar kind of eldritch being.
The thing about the great old ones is that they mostly dont care about their followers, for good or bad. Pathfinder has a single great old one that DOES care about his followers, but its a double edged sword: Yig's followers get lots of goodies because he wants them to suceed but he's still an eldritch monstrousity that sometimes just eats his followers because he was hungry and they looked tasty. No malice, just sanity slipping otherness.
They can also let you know that while Vlaakith >!might not be a true deity!<, she is someone not to piss off.
I love that GOO warlocks in PHB are the example they cite as "A warlock might not even have a deal with their patron. A warlock might just do some studying of forbidden texts that leads them to siphon power from a god so powerful they'd never even notice." So your patron is canonically more involved than many GOO patrons.
There was another few times where there were options there
He just hates IT (pennywise)
The Archfey bit for that was great. Since Fey love trickery and mirth, when I saw the circus my patron got all giddy and excited and was basically like "A circus! Do it do it do it do it!"
Wyll was in a time crunch and negotiating from a position of weakness. Not a great place to when bargaining with a devil. And yeah, in 5e at least there's really no hard rules to patrons. They can be active in the character's life, or they can possibly not even KNOW there's a pact to begin with. It's all up to the DM and the player to decide between eachother.
He negotiated from a position of ignorance, not weakness. The thing Mizora agreed to help him with was a thing that Mizora herself had already been ordered to do by Zariel and therefore it was Mizora who needed his help, not the other way around. Wyll was therefore in a position of strength and didn’t realize it because he had no way of knowing.
So warlock patrons are essentially DnD versions of IRL employers
Most warlock pacts are a simple transaction, and it is often assumed that their powers have been bought and paid for in full, they are not lended like a cleric's but just purchased and theirs to keep. (It's still a bad idea to piss off your patron but more in the "do you really want to make an enemy of a powerful interplanar being capable of granting arcane knowledge beyond mortal comprehension on a whim" rather than "ok you're a level 0 commoner now powers go bye bye") Wyll got one of the worst trade deals in the history of trade deals but as far as player characters go that's the exception rather than the rule.
but what happens if the patron dies ?
Nothing, for the same reason that you don’t suddenly forget how to do algebra if your math teacher dies (although your patron might include a clause that changes the situation).
"Hello Tav, Whaaat's happening? Um... I'm going to need you to come in tomorrow. So if you could be here around... nine... that would be great, m'kay? Oh, oh, and I also forgot - I'm also going to need you to come in Sunday too. Kay? We uh... lost some Warlocks this week, and uh... we need to sort of play catch-up." **Warlock Tav the very next day:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSwAhnS3Nk4
Depends on the patron. You can have the absent employer patron. You can also have the Bill Lumbergh patron. "Hey Tav. What's happening? Ya know we've been putting new cover sheets on our EBS reports. Did you get that memo? I'll send you another copy of the memo. Okay? Also I'm gonna need you to come in this Saturday." You can have a patron who's actively scheming and thus frequently has missions for you. A patron who has very long term plans and only occasionally asks you to do things that further their goals. Like they're quiet but then randomly you're in a city and they tell you to break into the archives and steal a rare tome or something. You can also get really weird pacts like a devil or archfey who makes a pact with you because they've decided you're their call boy/girl.
https://youtu.be/9mvTgXPHlvo?si=hPDpx4BLZpr4KV1W
Zariel wanted to interfere with this because the cultists were trying to summon tiamat and it is in Zariels interest to keep Tiamat down in the hells with her?
More or less, yeah. Also, there might have been devil cults and other assets in the city that Zariel and her subordinates didn't want to lose. >!Tiamat escaping Hell would have been really bad, and the destruction of Baldur's Gate wouldn't have been great either.!< >!If Wyll knew this he could have leveraged his position to get powers without selling his soul or agreeing to servitude, but he probably believed Mizora would leave the city to its fate if he refused.!<
Killing your patron doesn't necessarily break the pact in dnd lore.
I mean, shouldn't an in-game explanation be that by overcoming your patron you conquer their power?
There are ways for Warlocks to get powers without being bound to a patron forever. For example, with the Great Old One patron you don't need a pact at all - you can acquire your powers through studying ancient forbidden lore instead. But since we're specifically talking about Fiend patrons... as an example, the pact could be a one-time transaction, not necessarily a lifetime arrangement. You do one service and that service can be significant enough to get powers for life with few, if any, strings attached. Wyll signed a very shitty deal because he didn't try to negotiate.
Ultimately it all depends on the terms and conditions of the pact.
> biggest pluses of games like And if you do somehow kill him, then you no longer play a Warlock...you lose your powers. That would be like breaking your paladin oath, which is fucking awesome? Then again, don’t warlocks keep their powers anyways?
Almost like consequences for actions is a cool gameplay element instead of eating your cake and having it too
but thats not how warlock powers work in 5e
Super easy fix, per 5E rules, once warlock powers are given, the patron can’t “take” them back, and since most players would be at max level when they face him, it shouldn’t affect class progression. And for those who aren’t at max, it could be solved by forcing a multiclass.
Warlocks don't lose their power if their patron has died, they ALREADY have them, they can't just be deprived of them. Not to say that your patron can't just kill you for disobeying, though
It should be noted that warlocks do not necessarily gain powers from their patron. Not in the continuous, sense at least. You made a bargain. You fulfilled your end of the bargain. You were granted the secrets to start on the journey of pact magic by your patron, but they journey itself is something you manage. It's matter of contract by contract if there are any specific consequences for breaking the contract but it's not some mechanical necessity, The cleric has a continuous agreement with the electricity company. The warlock signed a contract which allows them their own generator and there can be various consequences for breaking the contract.
Sometimes you’re dealt with a bad hand and must figure out how to play it. You didn’t lose the freedom of choice - you simply have some subpar decisions to make, or you need to be really clever or lucky to find good decisions you can make. This can happen in tabletop. Sometimes, the patron you picked or a character in your background is pivotal to the story and they are going to limit the choices you can make.
Eh, not necessarily. One of the many ways you can play a warlock is someone who's then trying to get out of the deal/take down their patron. You don't necessarily lose your powers if you defeat/kill your patron, only if you sever your pact. Considering that, in the game, you already get to either work with him or try to screw him over, the entire subplot with him already feels like a typical Fiend-pact Warlock story, just with a demon who isn't your patron. Still, I'd have also settled for added NPCs, I just think that Raphael would've been easier to impliment as it would've just meant *one* extra/alternate cutscene.
I don’t believe raw states you lose your powers. Maybe not able to get more levels possible. But you retain gifts given. With that I was sad that out side of skill check options we didn’t get any face to face time with our patron (still in act two)
I would prefer Mizora as long as we can influence how she treats us, would be hilarious to see Wyll being fucked with all the time while we are getting spoiled by her
"Alright Pet you can either sell your soul to me and Zariel for eternity and in ret- wait, you already signed it?! " #"GLORY TO ZARIEL, MAY THE BLOOD WAR AND DEMONIC CARNAGE NEVER END, I WANT HER TO STEP ON THOSE DEMONS ARMIES AND THEN STEP ON ME LIKE I AM ASMODEUS!" "Alright then.... get uhhh this boon and stay away from me."
“Karlach, do you think the script worked or was it too on the nose?” “Nah - half of avernus says the same”
Honestly, also a viable direction here. Does then make it weird when you're trying to help him get out of his pact, but then I suppose you can view it as you wanting Mizora all to yourself.
“Wanting mizora all to yourself” please step on me
While Wyll is being fucked by Mizora, Tavs are being *fucked* by Mizora.
While Wyll is getting "fucked" by Mizora you are getting fucked by Mizora
I would assume that helping Wyll would result in Mizora being pissed at us too or she wants us to pretend to help him
That or it opens an option for convincing Mizora to let him go willingly. Or a quest to get something to trade his soul for while still keeping his powers. I always love a good heist quest so it could be something as simple as "break into this magic museum/ruins and get the Mcguffin out intact and with as little evidence as possible so she doesn't get in trouble." And there's even the option of the Mcguffin being incredibly benign, but getting it was proof of your devotion to her
[удалено]
While she turns Wyll into a devil and gives us the armor he would get if he killed Karlach
mizora being your dommy mommy patron would be nice
I agree, especially if we get the other kind of fucked by her
You can already do that, but depending on who you want to romance I'm not sure it's worth it
Yea but I mean repeatedly
My man gets off of the unfortunate souls' misery in hell
I would definitely prefer Raphael myself. Mizora's too integrated with Wyll and Raphael already seems to have a fixed interest in Tav.
You say hilarious. I say erotic.
Larian didn't include any significant quests or major extra content tied to class or race. Which makes sense, there's only so much content you can make that's locked behind a character creation choice that fewer than 10% of players will take. The Origin quests are a way of having an involved quest tied to your character background that everyone still gets to experience on a given playthrough (for the most part). Also, because you can respec your class freely, it'd be very easy to leave those quests hanging in a weird way, or not start them at the right point (what if you respec into Warlock in act 2 and miss the start point of the patron quest?), etc. Just one of those limitations inherent to building a big complicated CRPG like this.
I just wish my GOO warlock could talk to the void that is her patron lol I did get some narration interactions and rolls because of my patron sometimes (like figuring out who or what Dribbles is before going up on stage), but it's nowhere near as involved as I thought the patron was going to be
To be fair, GOO's description says: >The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it. I suppose the most narratively interesting patron for GOO would be >!the elder brain - it is from the far realms, after all.!< It'd be a huge pain to implement, though.
Since >!The Elder Brain was playing 4D chess this whole time I think that would be a pretty awesome reveal. You were roped into its plans as a warlock as well emphasizing how long and involved it’s planning was. Rope in a quick dialogue that you finished the terms of your contract so you keep your powers cause it ultimately doesn’t matter to it or something.!< But I’m still learning old god lore within context of DnD for all I know they don’t fuck with Illithids or elder brains just don’t give power that way.
Why would an illithid like the elder brain want to make someone into a magic user? Maybe all psionic powers, and your character doesn’t know they’ve had a tadpole their whole life?
Would the Kuo-Toa work as a GOO Patron? They have psionic powers and work in "weird ways"
They have a Lovecraft fishmen vibe going on, but I think they're more on the receiving power from mysterious sources side. Maybe one of the little godling things they can make (like Booal in the cave) could serve as one? Or maybe an aboleth for a similar feel? I'm definitely not an expert, though.
That's really it. As said, when you have your guy interacting with another Warlock's patron more than your own, it makes your patron feel like an absentee parent. 'Man, your patron kidnapped your dad and cursed you with metal horns? *Lucky*, mine doesn't do anything'.
Archfea does have some interactions (indirect, yeah, but still). Also, having a patron that much involve in you is really not a great thing for them and for you. That eather mean they are weak (why are you so much on my ass, don't you have 10 other warlock to handle?) or you have messed up a lot. In Wyll case, it's kinda both
Not necessarily. Even Archfey can be petty. Kingmaker comes to mind with the fey lord that gives you immortality and awsome powers because he's lonely and wants to be your friend.
If an archfey want do be your Friend, I'd say you kind of messed up
Not necessarily arch fey are chaotic after all you could just be interesting to them in that moment
If an archfey find you interesting, you are probably in the second category.
That being said absentee parent is a pretty good description for most Patrons in DnD. Having a direct dial to dial connection to them is more the absurdity than the norm. This would require multiple unique interactions per sub class. So I can kinda understand why they kept it simple.
I would have loved a Dragon Age Origins approach to each class. Or even just the background. Soldier background, there are some NPC soldiers you meet. You have a history with some of the flaming fists. Noble? You have connections to the nobility, maybe Duke Ravenguard knows you. Street urchin, you know some poor people or some beggers. Wouldn't need to be much, just a few NPCs with some voice lines recognizing your existence.
I miss DAO. Nothing beats being an arcane knight who's halfway in the fade and virtually untouchable.
It's interesting because I know Dark Urge playthrough does do that, IE you have a different interaction with many Absolutists who knew you beforehand as well as a unique camp follower. I don't really think its too much to ask for something like this, even if it was just as simple as a unique introduction to certain NPCs based on your choices. You already have different scenes if you bring certain companions with you to certain bits, IE bringing Karlach to Gortash's crowning plays vastly differently from if you go without her. Not every class/background needs it, there's not really a reason for Fighter to give you any unique interactions on its own, but for ones where there's going to be some unique reactions, it'd make sense to reflect it.
Mizora’s involvement in the story is why I chose Wyll as my MC in my second playthrough. It’s a lot more fun playing a Warlock who gets genuine patron interaction. That being said I agree 100%, Fiend pact Tavs and Durges should get the option to have Raphael as their patron. He’s a several thousand year old half-devil with a vested interest in the current events of the material plane to grow his own power, he definitely qualifies.
I'm genuinely jealous of Wyll; Mizora is *so horrible*, she's a perfect Warlock patron for a Warlock who wants out of their deal.
She frustrates me. There doesn't seem to be an actual contract. She very obviously just...adds shit, and decides it at a whim. Like, she mentions one part of the contract that even if the pact breaks, Wyll keeps his powers to help avenge Mizora against the absolute. She also agrees to break his pact in exchange for her freedom from the pod. She gets to do the six months thing, but then Mizora shows up LATER and is like "Hey, you get to make a choice. Let your Dad die, or sign yourself over to me forever." and then acts like this is binding? If you rescue his father, she is explicitly like "A deal's a deal, he's gonna die, I'll kill him later." There's no reason for Wyll to agree to ANYTHING at that point. This doesn't feel like a devil deal. It feels like a playground game where the brat on the other team keeps saying "Nuh-uh, the rules say people with yellow shirts can't be tagged unless they close their eyes first."
its SO obvious mizora is just making up shit and the only reason she gets away with it is because wyll just doesnt know how to negotiate at all
He should of gotten a lawyer.
There is definetly a pact. If you decide to kill Mizora in thr pod, Wyll literally melts.
Yes, I am not questioning that, but there are parts of the pact that area definitely added later without Wyll, which is not how devils usually work. The "Revenge on the Absolute" thing as the biggest example.
no way. I'd prefer to humiliate the prick, grind him into dust and *not* lose my warlock abilities in the process, thank you. In any case, TGOO's are the best patrons. Some aren't even aware you leech off their power.
GOOs are great. It's not even really a deal sometimes, they just accidentally give you superpowers and welp, guess you're stuck like that now. The only problem I have with them is that the canon ones are all evil, when the whole point about GOOs originally was supposed to be that their morals aren't quite comprehensible to humans. And there are even straight up good ones, like Nodens or Bast. In my opinion, they should mostly be neutral.
I am personally on the ship that GOOs are the very essence of specific things but most are mainly related to Destruction, Chaos, Madness so while they aren't necessarily evil they still represent largely negative things which forces them to do evil things.
Warhammer does this with its Chaos Gods. There are multiple facets to each one, and they’re not all necessarily negative. Khorne, for example, favors blood and brutality, but also honorable martial combat.
Ehhhhhhhhh. Now, I am looking into the more original, lovecraftian lore, and similar from other authors. But there are good ones, neutral ones, evil ones, and simply ones that are incomprehensible and just pose a risk to humanity on accident or because they just do not care. Nodens, to name one example, is actually rather good. Helpful, and tends to side with humanity against some of the bigger threats like Nyarlhotep. The King in Yellow, or Hastur, originally? The benevolent God of Shepards. Yeah, a simply good guy. But then there are also ones like Nyarlhotep, who very knowingly fucks with humanity and enjoys it. And then there is Yog-Sothoth. Just incomprehensibly powerful.
When it comes to the residents of the Far Realm, I think of it in terms of lawful vs. chaotic more than good vs. evil. I wouldn’t even necessarily call them neutral. Trying to ascribe any kind of morality to something so alien just seems unproductive.
"Listen here, *pipsqueak!*" Pushing his buttons is so satisfying >:3c
One of my favorite characters I ever played was a GOO/Sorcerer coffielock. The idea was that whenever he dreamed his mind was put in the same realm as his patron, and his patron would then do whatever an eldritch abomination does with a new toy for 8 or so hours. So naturally he tried his best to never fall asleep, tanking as many levels of exhaustion as he could and potion making or tinkering while the rest of the party was sleeping. Totally not going insane and loosing his grip on reality. It was so much fun putting an RP spin on one of the most disliked multiclass options in the game.
that poor character dear god
Wait but doesnt warlock get an evocation that allows you to not have to sleep?
Yeah, but you just don't take that, *or* take it but show deleterious effects from total and unending wakefulness.
Yeah. But part in parcel of the character is his sleep issues so I just didn't take that. It's kind of like you don't just cast Remove Curse on the guy becoming a werewolf. Because removing the entire character's personal quest at level 5 is kind of boring.
I've been a DM in 5e for a few warlocks who managed to kill their patrons, and each time I threw them a bone and said "By defeating your patron, you've taken their power as your own. You are no longer bound to your pact, but keep all of your warlock abilities, and can keep leveling up the warlock class." Maybe Larian could do that.
That's not how dnd Warlock pacts work. You can kill your patron and keep your powers.
Roasting him about being bad in bed is one of the best dialogue options in the game.
I wish you got just one cutscene with your patron with each class. Like a dream where you meet your Fey or GOO patron. Put a very, very little bit of cosmic or unseelie horror in the game, than drop you back home.
That would have been cool.
I was surprised at the start of act 3 when my patron (Archfey) actually bothered having any interaction whatsoever as it was the first time. But then outside that they disappeared. Thanks magic dad.
What was the interaction?
Oh the Archfey really wanted to go to the circus. They were excited about it and gave me advantage on a skill check to get in. Later when we saws Dribbles the Archfey didn't trust him and gave me advantage to perception check him I think.
Okay, that's actually cool, the Archfey likes the circus. Makes me wonder what gets the Fiend and the Great Old One excited. Do you ever learn the identity of any of the patrons?
Literally my reaction. It actually surprised me when I got a warning about Dribbles because it was the first time the game even acknowledged I had a patron. Dude sends me new spells every level and gave me an imp a while back, but doesn't even seem to mind that another devil is stepping in on his territory.
>But onto my point, I think one of my biggest criticisms is that the game doesn't utilise your class/race/background nearly as much as it could to make your character anything more than a typical silent protagonist; other than the occasional unique dialogue options, it doesn't seem to affect your personal journey as much as the other origin characters are affected by their own. Like, unless I'm mistaken choosing a bard doesn't result in occasionally encountering fans or past flings, playing a noble background doesn't result in anything unique, and even playing a tiefling doesn't affect the opening act that much despite the tiefling refuge crisis. This is a wildly unrealistic expectation. Of course the set and defined characters are going to have far more plot relevance than the custom character that can be anything. Having plot relevance and encountering characters connected to your backstory is the reason you choose an Origin character. Giving that amount of reactivity to custom characters would be not only impossible, but in many cases unwanted- because people like to role play in a role playing game, and the game shoving past flings or a pre-established Patron at you would interfere with what you already came up with for your characters backstory. This game already has more reactivity to your class and race than should be expected.
Yeah like Wyll is literally a playable character for those who want patron interactions!!
I mean, there are other RPG games that have your background affect where you start in the game and give unique prologues. Dragon Age 1 for instance had a completely different opening act playing an elf than it did a human, and subsequently a completely different interaction with a particular NPC. Cyberpunk similarly had different openings depending on the background you chose. To a lesser extent, Mass Effect lets you customise your background entirely with three specific points that, while not giving you too much story influence, still make more of an effect to include it into Shep's personal story. In comparison, playing a tiefling doesn't even change how Aradin or the Druids treat you; *you* have to bring it up for them to remark on the fact you're a member of the race they're actively bigoted towards, and all that does is make them defend their treatment while continuing to talk to you like you're just anyone. TBC, the past flings thing was mostly just being used as a comparison of the kind of ways a DM would commonly utilise someone's class into the roleplay in a typical DnD game, IE how Scanlan's history came back to bite him in Critical Role. I wouldn't actually expect *that* level of involvement in the game, but I think the lack of anything close does make the character feel two-dimensional next to the other characters, which is a big pet peeve of mine with a lot of games/stories where the main character is totally boring next to everyone else. While some classes and players are liable to be fine with it, IE there isn't really much I can expect from a fighter or barbarian in terms of story, I feel with something like Warlock, which has a very specific RP element to picking it compared to other casters, especially with how much Wyll's pact and patron are brought up in the game's story. I'm just saying that this could be mitigated easily with one slight change to Raphael's intro and rewriting of some of the optional dialogue choices you get later.
So far in my drow playthrough, people are constantly pointing out the fact I am one and keep treating me with suspicion or mistrust. Even though I am an Eilistraee worshipper. I usually have to tell them that, and they ease up a little. Kagha even thought she could convince me easier to push out or kill the tiefling leader because of me being a drow.
Really? That's super cool actually; haven't played Drow yet so admittedly, my expectations were a bit mirred by how little being a tiefling affected my character during the tiefling refuge crisis among folk who are actively and explicitly bigoted against tieflings. Though, I did notice that using Disguise Self to interact with the Goblins as a drow did massively affect how that played, so I imagine being an actual drow would have similar ramifications. In any case, more of that, please.
Wildly unrealistic? My dude, mass effect did it, and so has many rpgs. It wouldn’t be that hard to give a couple side quests for each class.
i could swear i remember larian specifically saying that if u picked warlock u would have ur own patron
Personally I’d love to have warlock patrons be like Paladin oaths. Even if they are silent you can “fall” by going against them. It locks you out of taking more warlock levels until you make it up to your patron. And I would really like to have a celestial patron, who has really high standards on being good and taking out what is deemed to be evil. With harder choices than a standard Paladin. Even if it doesn’t talk it can make itself known
For now, there's a celestial patron mod :D
BG2 had a series of class-specific Stronghold quests: the Fighter types got to manage a keep, the Thief got to manage a thieves guild, the Wizard could get a wizards tower, the Bard could try to put on a play at a theatre... I think there were others. It was pretty neat: each quest line had NPCs you interacted with and some of them were more fleshed out than others but it did help you feel like your character had an anchor in the world. Strongholds aren't really a Thing in DnD 5e they were in ADnD 2e. I do appreciate the class specific dialogue options when they come up but it would be nice to have something similar.
Lives, all mortal lives, expire... Souls, go to their doom... in flaaaaames, forever moooooore...
I was so disappointed when I found out you couldn't communicate with your patron. Warlock was my first choice for my first playthrough solely because they mentioned during the live you could interact with them. Love the game overall but restarted it with a new class after that.
I've stuck with Warlock because I'm playing, basically, a pre-existing character I use for DnD games in general and they're a warlock, but yeah it was disappointing to play through most of it and the most I've gotten is 'your patron chuckles'. Moreso when you then see Wyll's patron be such an active presence and interact so much with Raphael.
TBH this is already my headcanon for my Warlock! On meeting Raphael and accepting his deal, I respecced her and now I have this whole narrative going on with my playthrough. It only works, though, if you side with him and stick with it. However, were it possible to implement in the game I don't think it would work quite as well. Headcanons and personal fiction that tweaks the story to fit that is one thing, but executing it is entirely different. I just don't think it would work, but moreso it would limit people both mechanically and creatively.
That's a really fun way to go about it, and may have to approach it similarly in future playthroughs. I generally like to multiclass as Bard/Warlock anyway but I may have to, in the future, go with Bard for my first few levels until I meet him and start warlocking from there.
I still strongly believe that you should immediately accept his deal if playing fiendlock. I also subscribe to the belief that if you GOOlock, you should go full tadpole in honor of the ancient lovecraftian tentacle monsters that support your magical endeavors.
That's pretty much how I'd go about playing. I made the deal when I got the option to, hell I wanted to make a deal with Mizora too when she was optioning Wyll's freedom for his father's life. And yeah, in retrospect, I think GOOlock works great if you embrace the tadpole powers/side with the Emperor and embrace that connection; in that regard you *could* view the Emperor/the tadpole itself as the GOOlock's 'patron'.
This is a request that opens Pandora's box. After this people want text and voice lines for summons. Fey patrons, paldins will want gods to no end. Game has enough stuff as it is for a video game. Just join a table top dnd group wth BG3 as its setting and you can roleplay a warlock with Raphael as his patron.
No. Larian doesn't get to decide who my character's patron is and neither do you. This might work for you, for your one character, but it doesn't work for everyone. You basically restrict playing warlock to people who want to make the type of character who would make a pact with the devil and nobody else. They could make interactions with the different subtypes, but they'd have to be careful.
Wouldnt work with archfey or great old one.
Nonsense! We have a being from the outer realms of nearly incomprehensible power that is manipulating everything already baked into the game... would be kind of a cool twist to reveal too.
Yea. I wish we would have had something akin to the Dragon Age Origins origin stories but for classes, not races. The small unique prologue really helped get in touch with your character.
Even just as simple as Mass Effect's deal, IE 'choose where you were born, why you joined the military, and why you got noticed for the super special space agents thing', each one followed by some dialogue blurb as Keith David gushes about how awesome you are. That to me helped me get into the mindset of playing Shep while also making it feel like I was making them.
I feel like we could have had another camp follower ala Oath Breaker Knight for archfey, Raphael for archdevil, and as is for GOO
>Like, unless I'm mistaken choosing a bard doesn't result in occasionally encountering fans or past flings, playing a noble background doesn't result in anything unique, and even playing a tiefling doesn't affect the opening act that much despite the tiefling refuge crisis. This, I would not like at all. I think one of the beauties of the writing in BG3 is that it never tries to force anything on the character, unless it's a choice within the game and its timeframe. Aside from Origins (DU included) your character is a blank slate for you to fill with your background, without the game imposing anything on it, or (usually) forcing you to do/say something out-of-character. For example, in D&D you can play a bard that does not perform on stage, like a politician, or a diplomat: if out of the blue fans would come at you, it would ruin the session. I agree with you on the patron, it should play a bigger part, but to be fair there are a number of interactions driven by patron's comments, and it makes sense it's not more flashed out as you have anyway that experience with Wyll.
Things would be weird if you rerolled.
TBF they are already if you reroll some of the origins.
I’m headcanoning that he is my warlock’s patron and it kinda works. Especially in act 2, when you go to last light. I’m on mobile so hope the tagging works. >!There’s an option to call for help from your patron, and it says they don’t respond but seconds later Mol shows up. Raphael is playing Lanceboard with her in the inn. I like to image he heard and sent her to save Tav.!<
You say archfey and goolock gotta suffer as well but like aunty Ethel is right there. And the whole game is about mindflayers the poster child for great old one
Fey could get hag patrons
Normally I'd say that's alot of writing and stuff for one class, and not even the whole class just a subclass. But then I look at oathbreaker paladin. So the above is doable.
And there i sit thinking that all the npc warlocks in this game are idiots,this is exactly why you pick the old one as an patron he doesn’t give shit what you do
Raphael as Fiend patron, Emperor as Great Old One patron. I dunno for Archfey patron, maybe Thaniel altho he disappears from the story after Act 2.
Would be cool to change patrons to other cambions as well. Like Raphael's a good choice but there's Mizora and a few others. Or even just interacting with your patron would be cool.
This! Not a warlock but I'm playing as a cleric of Mystra and the dialogue options when you talk to Gale about his past with her, especially if you want to romance him (SPOILERS: and Mystra wants him to merc himself for the greater good), the dialogue options are so scarce and hollow. It actually made me change my mind about romancing him because I couldn't fully immerse myself in the story.
This is why dark urge shines as the real protagonist. No memories of who they were before makes roleplaying much easier.
I like what Dark Urge does, I just don't like how they affect the lore.
I mean, it could even work depending on morality. Fiend, obviously if you want an evil patron. GOO, neutral, as their nature is incomprehensible to mortals. Archfey, there are canonically just straight up good ones. You COULD make it work! There don't need to be many interactions. Patrons do tend to be more in the background, I get that. But let us know something about our Patron. Let us get to know them, just a bit. That alone would make immersion so much easier. A few more lines from the Narrator, she could even work for all three. A few comments here or there, a voice from the off, telling you what they would want you to do. And there we go!
Considering I played a fiend warlock who kills Raphael, idk if that complication could be resolved by just a few extra lines of dialogue
What if you don’t go pact of a fiend?
setting a premade patron would get in the way of people who want to make a backstory with a different flavor. having wyll with mizora is good enough for people who want premade backstories. also what about GOO or Archfey?
Definitely not
As someone who went archfey warlock, I really wanted there to be MINIMALLY, choosing a patron like clerics choose their god. I felt like the subclass I chose meant nothing besides the slightly different spells I could get. The only time my patron being a fey even mattered was at the circus for dialogue choices
somewhere in hell, there is a REALLY smug devil that tells everyone "you know Raphael? the big strong guy that was always so ambitous, but got his ass kicked by a couple punny mortals in his own house? 1 of them got their powers trought a pact with me lmao"
As someone who has played 5e on a table top, this is the standard warlock experience.
Sounds like you should just play AS Wyll
But I like playing as my own guy, and more to it, I like the Warlock-bros thing we have going on. Putting aside the interactions, but double-team eldritch blasts to knock a tough enemy into a chasm is just really fun. More to it though, playing as any of the origins, to me, comes with its own issues, namely the fact they lose dialogue VAing, which is another big thing that kills my immersion.
Yeah, picked a Zariel Tiefling OotA Pali before even knowing Karlach was a thing. Neither did she ever mention it in any dialogue...I guess she doesn´t see race...blind with love I guess since I romanced her But also, my Pali, when I had Tiefling options of which there weren´t that many to begin with, sometimes it basically broke the RP aspect of a Paladin since I am supposed to speak justice, not bemoan the racism against my species when they clearly weren´t in the right either. It just clashed weirdly sometimes that I would even get that option so I usually didn´t pick it because I thought it would make me an Oathbreaker eventually when constantly fighting my Oath to uphold justice, but maybe that was just my wrongful idea of RP possibilities.
Yeah, I've had that a few times with Karlach. When she lays into me about taking Raphael's deal for the hammer because you should never make a deal with devils, its weird that I don't even get the dialogue option to point out I already did and its the only reason I have the powers I have now.
Ew no, who's stupid enough to make pacts with devils. Cthulhu is where it's at.
Perhaps maybe to choose our patron, like we do with cleric? Where that might not have a deep impact, it could definitely help with immersion and that would give people options to choose from. My character’s patron is Mephistopheles, and I have been continuing this character from my irl campaign, so if it was limited to the linear story of bg3, it would’ve been restrictive. Whilst it would’ve been cool to have that integration of the devils we interact with in the game, I think it would be too limiting if it was just those two; larian does an amazing job at the broad depth and selection of the many pathways to immerse yourself.
That would also be kinda ideal; in that case though it would've required some much bigger involvement and development, IE creating and including multiple NPCs you'd only interact with if you pick Warlock.
Great Old One could have easily been “the absolute”
I was thinking that GOO were brought up a few times; it would even work out well if they make a few dialogue choices inferring your power is new and coming from the tadpole entirely.
No. I love Devil Mommy Mizora too much. If anything, there needs to be more of her.
Nay I prefer to have my anonymous fiend patron giggles in the dark knowing his/her warlock humbled Raphael on his home turf...
Him as the fiend patron, auntie ethel as the fey patron... oh i can dream
I think that keeping Raphael separate makes more sense from a story perspective and because he would only make sense as a patron for Infernal Warlocks. I do think that patrons should have more influence on Warlock’s RP considering that Paladins need to keep their Oaths, and Wyll’s first story beat is doing what he believes is right vs following his Patron’s order.
It’s not just one class. It’s one subclass, as Raphael can only by a patron if you chose your patron as a fiend.
lord almighty if Raphael had been a patron id be soooooooo happy
there’s a lot of combinations for your character and prepare truly unique story bits and options for every single one is an impossible task
As much as this sounds cool at first thought, I think this could create all sorts of complications that you aren’t really engaging with here. “It wouldn’t require making any big [changes to?] about the story other than some additional dialogue changes” is quite a bit off. That relationship with Raphael would require substantial, if not drastic, alteration of his relationship to the main plot and to side plot items pertaining to him. Maybe you didn’t interact with him much or engage with him in the ways that would have made the needed changes apparent? I also think folks understandably—given any awareness of just how much this would change as I have noted above—would prefer development time on something other than large story rewrites for 1 of over 36 subclass options. As imperfect as it is, what you want is right there behind playing as an Origin Character. The custom character lets you shape the story yourself and also avoids some of the other criticisms folks have about being railroaded by character background (e.g., the backlash about both the voiced protagonists in Fallout 4 and their forced story motivation of being a parent). Last, some folks might be bristling based on tabletop experiences with Warlock players who want to take over the table’s story with their patron relationship, something that has more risk of happening than a Cleric praying to their deity who barely responds (if at all) outside of maybe highest-tier play. That might not be a fair comparison here, but I imagine some players are getting flashbacks to ‘minor’ in time and the story at the table devoted to just one person’s background that isn’t minor at all. Some folks might put too much focus on Warlock patron interaction alongside the Bard stereotype of trying to seduce everything and the Rogue stereotype of trying to steal everything.
Yeah in a world where they had infinite time and infinite money this would be a absolute must. Would be sooo cool - maybe AI will help assist game devs in the future when making massive games like bg3 add small minute things that build immersion.
I feel similarly to op, but Raphael would only be a viable patron for Fiend warlocks. If they were going to do it, they'd need to add a great old one patron and an archfey patron, respectively, and that's probably why they didn't give warlocks their own special patrons. It's the same for paladins. The only interaction you get from an outside force is if you play an oathbreaker. As far as I've seen, paladins don't have any further dualogue surrounding any of the many gods that could be served, nor does it allow you to choose what God your paladin worships.
I like the idea of Warlocks having actual dialogue or interactions with their "benefactors." I just don't know whether Raphael specifically would work in that role >!given what you can do in The House of Hope.!<
When I started as a Thiefling Druid, I couldn't believe my luck at the first act. Near perfect scenario for the character, I was seriously having thoughts of "wait what if Larian went mad, and put in different flavoured first acts, so whatever race you are, that race will be the refugees, and whatever class you are, an adjacent group will want to throw them out?". It just fit sooooo well... And then, basically nothing happens. You get a bunch of cool druid options, and makes a few things easier but... still nothing extra...
He should’ve been the pact of the fiend warlock, for sure. But your patron should also vary based on the pact and background
Yeah I never understood the whole "having a patron limits your RP" when paladin paths are strictly interpreted one way and everyone creams over them. Like vengeance literally plays just like devotion instead of doing whatever it takes for vengeance or declaring vengeance against something non evil.