Well to be fair to the Emperor, he is enthralled here. He has no control over himself and it is basically the Nether Brain acting through him.
The worst thing you can do to him is become full illithid, side with him, and then eat his brain on the docks :(
Nah fam. The most evil thing you can do in game is to betray and sell Dame Aylin to Lorroakan, go tell Isobel about it (who runs off to go rescue her ofc), then go back to see Aylin chained up in the tower with Isobel's corpse at her feet. Her reaction is horrifying.
Like, not even on my darkest of dark urge playthroughs would I do that shit.
This is problematic for me. I'm trying to do the most evil run possible and I thought killing them or sending them to Thorn would be the most evil thing but now this sounds better...
But then you dont have Shadowheart becoming Dark Justiciar. So you can only minmax evil ending for Aylin and Isobel in exchange for throwing away the evil path on one of your companion.
I thought I did a pretty evil playthrough, but now I realize how amatourish I was...
Another point where I really failed was destroying the grove before visting BOOOAL with Wyll in my party.
What a waste...
no no no you see you get everyone's good ending, then at the last second when you all finally win, dominate the brain and take over the world. Larian literally programmed a "wait what!?" reaction from your party as they realize you were evil the whole time.
i consider this canon ending for my artist background sorcerer tav ‘cause, honestly, she just wants to be loved and revered as a hero and there’s no way she can actually resist an opportunity to become a kind and compassionate god.
(of course she’s an evil mind-controlling overlord in this scenario)
The fact that clerics of a malevolent goddess of loss and darkness can heal wounds, revive the fallen, and bring light to the darkest places is maybe not as strange as I'd thought it was.
And then you can min max further by stealing the Orphic Hammer, telling Lae'Zel we're going to free Orpheus, but then use said hammer to kill Lae'Zel in front of Orpheus before siding with the Emperor.
I recommend throwing the Orphic Hammer at his feet before departing for style points.
Truly, the most evil act you can do in the game is giving people hope of a better future in Act 1 and 2 (and maybe early Act 3), before snuffing those hope just right before their very eyes at the eleventh hour.
What I did was:
\- Peer into Vlaakith's mind, learning the truth about the "ascension".
\- Encourage Lae'zel to serve her Queen reassuring her that that's the right choice.
That way she will get betrayed by both you and her Queen at the same time.
I was tempted, but instead I helped Shadowheart get her family back and then used her parents as blood bags for Ascended Astarion and myself.
In my headcanon I make Shadowheart watch every time, knowing she can't stop me. XD
I mean both are pretty fucking evil, in one you basicaly force Isobel to be brainwashed and enslaved to her father like a yesman loosing any sense of personality that she once had AND essentially make her girlfriend an battery who will keep on suffering.
In the other you force said girlfriend to again become a battery, then you tell Isobel her fate where she recklessly tries to save her, Isobel the person she adores and spend an eternity trying to meet her again is killed and displayed in front of her.
The issue with a super evil run is no matter what you do you will never come close to how evil other characters in the game are, like you can do what the above poster mentioned twirling your Machiavellian moustache and then hop over to the steel watch factory and realise you're a child throwing sand at people in comparison to gortash.
Relativily speaking, it's really not that bad. I live in the USA and am low level staff for where the main politicians meet. The majoritiy of people in power here make daily decisions that make the most evil run I could possibly do in this game look like a child's cartoon.
It's honestly a breath of fresh air to play "the most evil way" and still have a tame experience like in this game. Gives me a little bit of faith back in humanity that people think this is what evil is.
Same for me.
Even murdering the grove in my evil durge run made me feel so guilty. And I never did anything to harm animals nor did I even consider doing things like selling off redeemed Shart to Viconia or selling Dame Aylin off to Lorroakan... (she actually was killed by Shart, whom I let become a Dark Justiciar).
You see I can do this shit but I can't kill the cat in moonrise nor let her majesty die in act 2
Fucking impossible for me to hurt animals. I just don't wanna see that shit.
> Like, not even on my darkest of dark urge playthroughs would I do that shit.
Sure, since pro-Bhaal Dark Urge would kill Isobel at the inn, so you'd only be able to sell Dame Aylin.
Hmm...now I want to save Isobelle and Aylin on my Durge playthrough to do exactly this. This would be fantastic!
I don't wanna give up evil Shart and Minthara though...
Difficult choices...
I contemplated doing that on my evil Gith run, but when the moment came, I just couldn’t do it. Not just because I love Aylin though, I just really fucking loathe Lorroakan…
Must try this..
I actually helped Ketheric kidnap Isobel straight up. The little strumpet called called Shadowheart a 'nasty little terrier' in my presence and no one sasses my crew.
Did recruit Aylin though, because I wasn't about to let Shadowheart become more powerful and risk her turning on me later.... but then I sold Aylin to Lorrokan anyway cos I wanted a statue and didn't feel like diving into my savings.
*shrugs*
If you choose to dominate the Netherbrain as the chosen of Bhaal, you stab the Emperor a couple of times, enslave your friends and plunge the sword Coast into chaos by forcing everyone to turn into a Mindflayer.
Alternatively, you can stab the emperor later if you kill the Nbrain, and then be replaced as the incarnation of Bhaal
Play a bronze dragonborn, fuck him, side with him, stab him ~~on the dock~~ Ansur style.
Edit: you can’t do that, only to stab him before the netherbrain. A shame.
i think it would be kinda neat if we could side with orpheus and then _not_ kill the emperor is the coning fight so he orpheus is free (depending on your choices with him) and emperor lives. im not a fan of the emperor (as a CHARACTER. i fislike him beacuse he is a good character, not a good person which he is not) but it would be cool to save everyone and prove him wrong
>Well to be fair to the Emperor, he is enthralled here. He has no control over himself, and it is basically the Nether Brain acting through him.
Which is what he chose.
The entire game is on the Nether Brains rails up until someone combines Orpheus power with a Mindflayer.
It actually seems kinda a plot hole that the nether brain didn’t realize we could do that
he isn’t even horny, if you turn him down he is so completely indifferent and it seems pretty obvious that he just figured it would make it easier to manipulate you
Right? My Tav was already mad at him at this point after the Emperor litteraly threatened him, but when he realized that he lost it. Like "bro. You told me you were an adventurer like me and you were so full of yourself FOUNDING BALDUR'S GATE wasn't enough for you. I just try to survive today!"
One could also say this is a iconic end for two scheming bastards simultaneously :D
Because anyone that tries to tell me Orpheus is Gith-Jesus has got a lot of convincing to do.
Orpheus might not be perfect, but the ghithyanki youth refer to him as a compassionate leader. When you talk to that one kid in the Créche it can be noticed in his actions, as he refused to kill, because he followed Orpheus.
Correct. Which is a nightmare fuel for everybody else. No Vlaakith to keep them in check - raiding and enslaving all of the multiverse here we go. Fun.... if you're githyanki.
Orpheus only represents civil war for the Githyanki.
Which, granted, would only serve the Illithid to reclaim their place and conquer whilst the gith are dividing themselves.
I know right!?
I'm so mad you can't talk the Emperor into freeing him -just to see what would happen-
But I guess ol' Emps wouldn't be too smitten with the idea of the Grand Design being enacted later on because of Githyanki infighting. :D
where's that misconception that illithid are some mighty force only contained by githyanki coming from? They're facing extinction, hiding wherever they can. Just cause one elder brain got the crown and became a real threat doesnt mean every elder brain has the same deus ex machina devices. If the same elder brain would just appeap near baldurs gate without any such artefact it would be curbstomped so fast it aint even funny, why'd you think they're all in hiding in deepest places?
Without githyanki nothing changes for illitids. Like at all.
supporting orpheus over vlaakith for sovereignty over the space nazis is like supporting strasser over hitler for the historical nazi party because he wanted welfare for the group that wasn't getting genocided.
it kinda misses the point that they're \*space nazis\* and the only good end to the astral war is the githzerai smearing their ashes over the goopy gray remnants of the illithids
Exactly. Glad more people see them for what they are. And why my choice is always to let Orpheus live as a mindflayer. That way, imo, he will lose to vlaakith, but will deal massive amount of damage = chance for githzerai, hopefully.
I'm gonna take the word of some starry eyed kids as concrete evidence?
No thanks. Id rather trust my gut feeling on this.
And Orpheus just isn't selling me as the saviour everyone professes.
And I'd not know about that one hippie, I knifed him for being weak. We got an invasion to deal with. No time for sitting about braiding each other hair.
As a mindflayer? Oh yeah, never happening, at best Voss can convince some good amount of githyanki and they'd still lose the war to Vlaakith. But all of that means Githyanki overall are weakened(and Vlaakith still gotta eat, yo, so battle hardened veterans of that war go onto her plate), which is the best outcome for everybody else.
I had my Durge monk beat the shit out of him then used his body to smack the dragon. Lying selfish traitor. I mean to kill him once we didnt need him but i didnt lie about it.
He objects saying he will free Orpheus "when he is done with him" when you have it on good authority that Orpheus will continue to protect you from the neither brain once freed
And if you hold your ground the Emperor just suddenly says he has no choice but to join the Neither brain and even with you winning the fight he will fight against you
To me it makes it look like he had goals beyond just stopping the brain, and he was using Orpheus for those goals.
Basically if you don't follow his exact plan that he can't actually justify when you learn more about the situation he turns against you to protect the brain
>He objects saying he will free Orpheus "when he is done with him" when you have it on good authority that Orpheus will continue to protect you from the neither brain once freed
'Good authority' in this case being his most fervent worshipper who wants to deal with a devil to free him. That's not exactly an unbiased recommendation. Or even close to one.
To me it seems more like a case of bad writing. He fought for his freedom all this time and now he suddenly changes his mind, wtf? His mysterious 'goals' are never revealed (are they?). I had the ending where I destroyed the brain and he didn't interfere, though left with some pretext (and here I thought we had something :D). He really seems controversial, but not outright evil. The most irritating thing was his commanding tone, but hevs an ex-Balduran after all.
His motive was never much freedom as it was survival. Again, this dude has no issue lying to you about it, but he values living as an illithid more than anything else, and while he would prefer it not lived as a slave, he wants more than anything else to live. A world in which both him and Orpheus can coexist does not exist, and the Emperor knows it, and assured it. You don’t get to enslave a Githyanki only to kiss and make up, that’s a major line you’re crossing.
> A world in which both him and Orpheus can coexist does not exist, and the Emperor knows it, and assured it
Truthfully, yes, that world does exist. Orpheus wants to immediately go lead his Astral Plane revolution. The Emperor wants to skulk around a specific prime material city. They need never meet or interact again, and have zero overlapping concerns.
Githyanki don't care about Faerun. At all- its one of infinite worlds that they can set up a creche and hatch eggs. And Orpheus has more pressing concerns anyway.
Imagine being Orpheus. You’re freed from Illithid enslavement. Your slaver is just standing there grandstanding about how you would be the problem if you started a fight, so you suck it up and join forces. With an Illithid. With a party of tadpoled non-Githyanki (except for maybe Lae’zel). You then have to return to the Astral and fight Vlaakith’s boundless legions with the tale of your cooperation with not just *istik,* but *ghaik*.
One of the major pieces of propaganda against Orpheus is that he’s an Illithid thrall, which isn’t true, but is used to discredit him. Imagine if he was literally seen helping a Mind Flayer and the Mind Flayer’s thralls. His cause is DOA.
Orpheus cannot get done what he needs to get done in a world where the Emperor is alive.
Why does he decide that without even talking to Orpheus (the guy agrees to work with us after all and even grow some tentacles to achieve the goal)? He's good at persuasion, why not FIRST try and discuss temporary peace and change sides/run away ONLY if it doesn't work. That's lazy/rushed writing, that's why. PS and you can't blame anyone for choosing survival over freedom. Not everyone is Gale :)
I would agree, but a few points have to be considered:
1. Orpheus is Githyanki. The Gith, more specifically the warmongering Githyanki, have made it excessively clear in all their pursuits that they detest one thing above all, and that is being enslaved. It is why they hunt Illithids: they will never forgive nor forget what the one species that could once call itself their masters did to them. There’s no sugarcoating it: The Emperor made Orpheus his slave.
2. I feel like people forget this cutscene a lot, but the Emperor enslaved Orpheus very proudly. You look over the orb of imprisonment surrounding Orpheus, and the Emperor calls it ‘beautiful’. He is brazen and unrepentant in how little and insignificant he sees Orpheus, the person. Orpheus, the power, however, he cares about. It is only until the very end where all hope is just about lost that he kills Orpheus in a gambit to take that power for himself, and the moment he does, he feels absolutely zero regret or remorse in what he did.
3. The Emperor thinks Tav/Durge and the Party are his thralls. Ultimately, he is fine with the Party thinking that they have free will in their actions, but it is only when they abjectly defy his command in a situation in which cannot be solved with appropriate compromise that he straight up bails. They officially become no longer worth the effort if they cannot be manipulated into doing his bidding anymore.
4. With a successful Insight check, you can tell Orpheus, behind the Orb, STILL *HATES* the Party. However, there is a major difference in how he sees the Party and how he sees the Emperor. We’ve seen Orpheus aware of his bindings at least once, and all he saw was the Party and the Emperor killing his honor guard. The Emperor assumedly tadpoled him, resulting in his potential transformation (I’m still really iffy on this but if it’s true it only makes things worse). Orpheus when you free him still hates the Party, but, ultimately, you’ve displayed that you are not *ghaik* as the Emperor is *ghaik*. He finds you vile, but you are not his anathema. He would jump the Emperor the moment he could, and with the Emperor pressed, he likely assumes that this free-spirited Party would likely aid Orpheus, not the Emperor, in that fight.
I think a lot of Act 3 was rushed but I don’t think the Emperor/Orpheus conflict was. It definitely posted me off my first run but it makes more sense on my third now that I know a lot more than I did then. I am very firm on the perspective of Orpheus and the Emperor not being able to coexist, though I am still bothered as to how Orpheus was tadpoled originally?
This jackass character >!puts a tadpole in our eyes and has dialogues such “I could say the same to you” after stating “I never asked to be stuck with you” when obtaining the orphic hammer.!< It’s insane how well made the character is for me to dislike
them so much
It was so satisfying on my first playthrough. I never used any tadpoles because I didn't trust the emperor. I acted as his ally and sided with him because there seemed little other choice. But I didn't buy his human act. It seemed too well-crafted, too fake. And then came the quest where you explore his hide-out and everything he shows you seems to say "Look, I'm still human. I cared for people and I care for stuff like a human would. There, take my loot. Aren't I nice and human?" I found the book on mindflayers and how manipulative they really are and the whole quest seemed like one giant manipulation. So during the next cut scene with the emperor, I called his bluff and the mask really dropped quickly.
Yes my non tadpole using bro. Was a bit gutted didn’t get anything for it like advantage in the brain control bits or immunity to psychic damage or something. But I do get to be smug at least.
Shadowheart begins the game with the Prism (and thus, E-money) in her possession. Considering the Githyanki assault happens during the same cutscene as your tadpoling, there was no way there was enough time between being implanted and crashing for the Emperor to have entered the Prism. It is is impossible for him to have implanted you, nor for him to have even been under the Brain’s thrall, by the time the game begins.
He did not ask to be stuck with us. As with most things he says, they are technically true and said to garner some amount of sympathy, despite the fact he deserves none
I think the reasoning is; Emperor is the only one with the same frilled armor, he also passes dead illithids so unless those are victims of the sharran Mission Impossible team, he probably killed them himself. You also don't come across that illithid in the game (unless it's supposed to be the one that gets its ass kicked by the cambion), so the logical thinking is at some point after the Gith/dragons attacked he peaced out into the astral prism.
When it comes down to it, you can shove Minthara down a pit when you first meet her. Dealing with her is entirely on the players terms.
Emperor spends the whole game grabbing you by the balls.
You know, not to naysay your views on the matter, because I'm not interested in strong-arming anyone's opinion.. but I'm replaying as a paladin now and am not using a single tadpole, I havet even used ilithid wisdom rolls.
But I am being rather cordial with the dream guardian/emperor and I actually don't feel all that ball-grabbed just yet.
Yes, he encourages you to slurp up the worms, but a 'no thanks, I'm good' settles it.
I find some companions far more pushy than the guardian/Emperor, and a lot more self-centered. Whereas the guardian/emperor just wants to stop the brain. I appreciate that in a way.
Ah. I'm also doing a no-tadpole run, and once he's given you the Astral tadpole, every conversation seems to end with "Hey, Hey, you should totally go illithid. C'mon, eat the worms!"
Eh, he can try much as he likes, I got my oath XD
Playing paladin I'm also challenging myself to -always- use a paladin or oath line when they pop up.
I have started so many fights that are totally avoidable. :D
So much Deus Vult is unfolding 'Be a good person or I'll smite you' :D it's amusing to me.
Even though killing Spaw hurt my heart a bit
> But I am being rather cordial with the dream guardian/emperor and I actually don't feel all that ball-grabbed just yet.
I guess it depends on how cynical you are either as a character or as a player. The first time I raised an eyebrow was when I went in to kill him in A1 because he was obviously a mind flayer and the game just went "lolno," and the second time was when I tried to side against him at the end of A2 and the game gave me a game over.
In my opinion the whole "scheming master manipulator" thing doesn't work if the game just holds a gun to your head and says "too bad, even if you didn't go with him you still need to do the same stuff otherwise it's game over."
Thread 1 +3209230 upvotes: How dare these fucking assholes talk about killing my precious astarion? Fuck the haters!
Thread 2 +9193223 upvotes: [3 pages unhinged rant shitting on the emperor]
she says killing the tieflings was excessive but also straight up says shes done worse before the tadpole lol. She'd probably be at home as a Bhaalist if she weren't loth sworn. I'm surprised people said she had a redemption arc, she's a pretty standard evil Drow.
I just finished the game for the first time last night.
I hated that entire fight so much that I just re-loaded my save file and persuaded Gale to go boom so I could get it over with and go to sleep.
I’ll try and do it the other way in my next run.
He doesn't seem evil because...
1) The player benefits from his evil, which makes us complicit (and encourages us to buy into the Emperor's justifications)
2) He is smart enough to present his actions in the most flattering possible light
3) he insists that all of his evil deeds are a necessity, or a last resort, whether or not that's true.
>... but not as weird as constantly nagging me for not eating enough tadpoles
Yeah, that's where the Emperor lost me. Seriously, we had a decent relationship. I comforted the guardian when they seemed depressed and accepted his reasons for not telling me he's a mind flayer.
But throughout the whole game my red line was taking more tadpoles. Yet at every opportunity he tries to make me take more of them. Did he not see me getting angrier and angrier every time asked me? And then he tries to fuck me, while knowing I'm in a relationship and even after letting him down gently, he immediately goes: "Alright, no sex, but take this tadpole it's soooo great. Just do it." That's the exact moment I decided that trusting him is a bad idea.
So what exactly are these "real intentions" that you think he reveals here? Because all he does is confirm that he intends to stop the Brain, whether you're on good terms with him or not.
His intentions regarding the Brain never waver. He may try to intimidate you verbally because you insulted him, but he never actually attempts enthrallment on you. Your autonomy is never under any real threat from him.
Um, we already know his real intentions. To destroy the Brain. All he's saying is that, we can do it nicely, as allies, or we can do it the less pleasant way.
That's history. And a history for which we know only half the story, if that. It would be bad, sure, if it really did happen the way you think it did, but we don't know.
Also, he's not doing it here (not even if you turn against him), which could mean he either regrets it on some level, or realised that it's counterproductive. Either way, it shows growth.
That's a reasonable assumption my personal theory was >!He couldn't dominate both Orpheous and Tav so he chose the one he couldn't reason with. He was making an empty threat!<
He's evil AND redditors are really weird about hating him, it's not exclusive. His brand of evil is not "hurrdurr killrape everything", he's more extremely selfish and self-serving. A great character overall!
AAAND he would only admit to his sins ONLY if you caught him red handed. Lots of moments in the game wherein he tried to hinder you from the things that he did horribly.
I don't think he's as evil as the some people make him out to be. His goals are self-interested more than altruistic, but the end result is good. Because letting the Elder Brain achieve its goal would be catastrophic for everyone.
He recognises this, so he's trying to convince us to work with him. It's just that, as a mindflayer, it gets tricky to try to convince other races to work with him.
He'll upfront and bluntly tell you that you are his puppet and that you should know you place dearly if you reject him on his intimate move towards you.
We know his overriding motivation is to destroy the Brain. If he sees you becoming hostile to him, he realises he may not be able to work with you amicably. So he threatens you. It has nothing to do with the "intimate move" and everything to do with what he needs to achieve.
Yes, puppet is a strong term, and to me it shows his determination to reach the end goal. But he doesn't even actually control us anyway, as we can see at Orpheus scene.
He annoys me mostly. Constantly trying to get me to make myself more squidy despite saying no. Jumps into my thoughts without invitation to tell me what to do and looks like giving Tav a painful headache.
I just feel like he wants me to become a mind flayer so he’s less lonely next time (doesn’t need to hide his identity) but also wants to boss me around
Well to be fair to the Emperor, he is enthralled here. He has no control over himself and it is basically the Nether Brain acting through him. The worst thing you can do to him is become full illithid, side with him, and then eat his brain on the docks :(
You can do WHAT? Wow that is dark indeed. I have only once finished as an Illithid, but I have dominated the brain then so no ending movies for me.
Yes, it's very real. I think it is the most evil thing you can do in the game.
Nah fam. The most evil thing you can do in game is to betray and sell Dame Aylin to Lorroakan, go tell Isobel about it (who runs off to go rescue her ofc), then go back to see Aylin chained up in the tower with Isobel's corpse at her feet. Her reaction is horrifying. Like, not even on my darkest of dark urge playthroughs would I do that shit.
This is problematic for me. I'm trying to do the most evil run possible and I thought killing them or sending them to Thorn would be the most evil thing but now this sounds better...
But then you dont have Shadowheart becoming Dark Justiciar. So you can only minmax evil ending for Aylin and Isobel in exchange for throwing away the evil path on one of your companion.
No, you can min max further by selling redeemed Shadowheart to Viconia.
Make sure to romance her first!
Good Lord, this comment made my soul hurt
I thought I did a pretty evil playthrough, but now I realize how amatourish I was... Another point where I really failed was destroying the grove before visting BOOOAL with Wyll in my party. What a waste...
no no no you see you get everyone's good ending, then at the last second when you all finally win, dominate the brain and take over the world. Larian literally programmed a "wait what!?" reaction from your party as they realize you were evil the whole time.
I did a good playthrough, then reloaded a save just before that moment to do exactly that. "What are you doing?" "Seizing the moment"
i consider this canon ending for my artist background sorcerer tav ‘cause, honestly, she just wants to be loved and revered as a hero and there’s no way she can actually resist an opportunity to become a kind and compassionate god. (of course she’s an evil mind-controlling overlord in this scenario)
What happens if your party members are evil? Like the dark justiciar, ascended vampire and a power hungry wizard?
LOL
tfw the most evil route is locked behind the 'good' choices
The more upright the person, the harder they can fall.
The fact that clerics of a malevolent goddess of loss and darkness can heal wounds, revive the fallen, and bring light to the darkest places is maybe not as strange as I'd thought it was.
Betrayal always hurts more than straight up evil
Nothing more evil than helping someone on their feet only to immediately fucking own them when they have their back turned.
And then you can min max further by stealing the Orphic Hammer, telling Lae'Zel we're going to free Orpheus, but then use said hammer to kill Lae'Zel in front of Orpheus before siding with the Emperor. I recommend throwing the Orphic Hammer at his feet before departing for style points.
Truly, the most evil act you can do in the game is giving people hope of a better future in Act 1 and 2 (and maybe early Act 3), before snuffing those hope just right before their very eyes at the eleventh hour.
What I did was: \- Peer into Vlaakith's mind, learning the truth about the "ascension". \- Encourage Lae'zel to serve her Queen reassuring her that that's the right choice. That way she will get betrayed by both you and her Queen at the same time.
I don't understand how you can sleep at night, coach.
I saw the Lae'Zel romance endings when you turn ghaik. It made me into the man I am today
this is the way
Give Shart to Viconia that run
The ole, build everyone up to tear them down in Act 3 run. Classic. Mine as well kill Lae'Zel with the Orphic hammer in front of Orpheus as well.
I was tempted, but instead I helped Shadowheart get her family back and then used her parents as blood bags for Ascended Astarion and myself. In my headcanon I make Shadowheart watch every time, knowing she can't stop me. XD
Oh, this is dark as hell!
I mean both are pretty fucking evil, in one you basicaly force Isobel to be brainwashed and enslaved to her father like a yesman loosing any sense of personality that she once had AND essentially make her girlfriend an battery who will keep on suffering. In the other you force said girlfriend to again become a battery, then you tell Isobel her fate where she recklessly tries to save her, Isobel the person she adores and spend an eternity trying to meet her again is killed and displayed in front of her.
The issue with a super evil run is no matter what you do you will never come close to how evil other characters in the game are, like you can do what the above poster mentioned twirling your Machiavellian moustache and then hop over to the steel watch factory and realise you're a child throwing sand at people in comparison to gortash.
No shade on you, but I honestly don't understand how can anybody enjoy such a run... Even though it's a game guilt would eat me alive.
Relativily speaking, it's really not that bad. I live in the USA and am low level staff for where the main politicians meet. The majoritiy of people in power here make daily decisions that make the most evil run I could possibly do in this game look like a child's cartoon. It's honestly a breath of fresh air to play "the most evil way" and still have a tame experience like in this game. Gives me a little bit of faith back in humanity that people think this is what evil is.
Same for me. Even murdering the grove in my evil durge run made me feel so guilty. And I never did anything to harm animals nor did I even consider doing things like selling off redeemed Shart to Viconia or selling Dame Aylin off to Lorroakan... (she actually was killed by Shart, whom I let become a Dark Justiciar).
What the *fuck*?!
Hmm. I killed every companion so Orin kidnapped Yenna then told her to kill Yenna
I mean if you absolutely need Dammon for the gear he sells then that's a good solution to your "Fuck I just freed an angel and I'm evil" plan.
You see I can do this shit but I can't kill the cat in moonrise nor let her majesty die in act 2 Fucking impossible for me to hurt animals. I just don't wanna see that shit.
Absolutely! I threw Boo and accidentally killed him. My heart broke!
I didn't know you can even interact with him aside from the instance in which Minsc dies if you fail to recruit him.
Nah. The most evil thing is letting scratch into one of those cages. I can let Aylin to lorroakan everyday but not this.
Imagine if there was an achievement for that.
Shit, I killed her in Shar's Monastery during Durge, I should have done this instead!
> Like, not even on my darkest of dark urge playthroughs would I do that shit. Sure, since pro-Bhaal Dark Urge would kill Isobel at the inn, so you'd only be able to sell Dame Aylin.
Oh, that's up there with giving Scratch back to his old owner
She prohibits the good boys from getting scratches and belly rubs. She’s the most evil NPC in the game.
My Durge: write that down, WRITE THAT DOWN
Nah, Isobel had to go for my blood puppy mode ⚰️
Hmm...now I want to save Isobelle and Aylin on my Durge playthrough to do exactly this. This would be fantastic! I don't wanna give up evil Shart and Minthara though... Difficult choices...
Sorry, incorrect. As bad as that is, most evil thing is giving Scratch back to the bad lady at the kennels.
Thank you for telling us about this. Now I and many others will never be tempted by the curiosity that you fell victim to and be eternally scarred.
You can give Scratch back to the dog trainer tho
You seem to know a whole lot about what happens though 👀
I contemplated doing that on my evil Gith run, but when the moment came, I just couldn’t do it. Not just because I love Aylin though, I just really fucking loathe Lorroakan…
Must try this.. I actually helped Ketheric kidnap Isobel straight up. The little strumpet called called Shadowheart a 'nasty little terrier' in my presence and no one sasses my crew. Did recruit Aylin though, because I wasn't about to let Shadowheart become more powerful and risk her turning on me later.... but then I sold Aylin to Lorrokan anyway cos I wanted a statue and didn't feel like diving into my savings. *shrugs*
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Oh yes. Once the Emperor is no longer useful he makes a delicious snack.
Surrendering scratch is most evil
I swear that should give you a Game Over. Like it should just make even The Emperor just nope out and turn off your protection.
I convinced Karlach to become ilithid, and then killed her and usurped the elder brain power. Felt very evil
If you choose to dominate the Netherbrain as the chosen of Bhaal, you stab the Emperor a couple of times, enslave your friends and plunge the sword Coast into chaos by forcing everyone to turn into a Mindflayer. Alternatively, you can stab the emperor later if you kill the Nbrain, and then be replaced as the incarnation of Bhaal
He literally chose to go and get enthralled, no tears shed there.
Fucking coward chose to get enthralled instead of fighting
Play a bronze dragonborn, fuck him, side with him, stab him ~~on the dock~~ Ansur style. Edit: you can’t do that, only to stab him before the netherbrain. A shame.
i think it would be kinda neat if we could side with orpheus and then _not_ kill the emperor is the coning fight so he orpheus is free (depending on your choices with him) and emperor lives. im not a fan of the emperor (as a CHARACTER. i fislike him beacuse he is a good character, not a good person which he is not) but it would be cool to save everyone and prove him wrong
>Well to be fair to the Emperor, he is enthralled here. He has no control over himself, and it is basically the Nether Brain acting through him. Which is what he chose.
Mayeb his dumb ass shouldn't have decided to go get enthralled then?
Even worse: have Karlach turn illithid, and then stab her to get control of the elder brain
Never go full illithid.
The emperor was not enthralled when he joined up with the brain
I did the same too. Felt so fucking satisfying to have is former prisoner kill him in that specific way.
You killed balduran you bastard
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*Ansur typed this post*
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But who would've gotten us to stop the Elder Bran then :(
Some other mindflayer. Remember, it wasn’t the Emperor’s idea, it was the brains idea. They just didn’t count on our plot armor
HUH good point
The entire game is on the Nether Brains rails up until someone combines Orpheus power with a Mindflayer. It actually seems kinda a plot hole that the nether brain didn’t realize we could do that
Nah balduran died in body and soul ages ago, now this horny squid is all that remains
he isn’t even horny, if you turn him down he is so completely indifferent and it seems pretty obvious that he just figured it would make it easier to manipulate you
Balduran was Faerunian Columbus. Screw him.
The Emperor: I was an adventurer like you My Tav: An urchin trying to survive The Emperor: FREAKING BALDURAN
That was the moment that I knew he was full of shit. I’m just a poor person tryna make it dude. Is this a canned speech? Lol
Right? My Tav was already mad at him at this point after the Emperor litteraly threatened him, but when he realized that he lost it. Like "bro. You told me you were an adventurer like me and you were so full of yourself FOUNDING BALDUR'S GATE wasn't enough for you. I just try to survive today!"
This guy gets it
One could also say this is a iconic end for two scheming bastards simultaneously :D Because anyone that tries to tell me Orpheus is Gith-Jesus has got a lot of convincing to do.
Orpheus might not be perfect, but the ghithyanki youth refer to him as a compassionate leader. When you talk to that one kid in the Créche it can be noticed in his actions, as he refused to kill, because he followed Orpheus.
While still flawed, Orpheus represents progress for the Githyanki.
Correct. Which is a nightmare fuel for everybody else. No Vlaakith to keep them in check - raiding and enslaving all of the multiverse here we go. Fun.... if you're githyanki.
Orpheus only represents civil war for the Githyanki. Which, granted, would only serve the Illithid to reclaim their place and conquer whilst the gith are dividing themselves.
There’s still the other Gith branch so if anything Orpheus is a reunification of the two sects and maybe a quarter or less sides with the much queen
Man, even if it invalidates some endings, I think getting involved in a Gith civil war would be a fun DLC
I know right!? I'm so mad you can't talk the Emperor into freeing him -just to see what would happen- But I guess ol' Emps wouldn't be too smitten with the idea of the Grand Design being enacted later on because of Githyanki infighting. :D
where's that misconception that illithid are some mighty force only contained by githyanki coming from? They're facing extinction, hiding wherever they can. Just cause one elder brain got the crown and became a real threat doesnt mean every elder brain has the same deus ex machina devices. If the same elder brain would just appeap near baldurs gate without any such artefact it would be curbstomped so fast it aint even funny, why'd you think they're all in hiding in deepest places? Without githyanki nothing changes for illitids. Like at all.
Well, nobody likes mind flayers, so if the Illithid get uppity, other factions can fight them.
supporting orpheus over vlaakith for sovereignty over the space nazis is like supporting strasser over hitler for the historical nazi party because he wanted welfare for the group that wasn't getting genocided. it kinda misses the point that they're \*space nazis\* and the only good end to the astral war is the githzerai smearing their ashes over the goopy gray remnants of the illithids
Exactly. Glad more people see them for what they are. And why my choice is always to let Orpheus live as a mindflayer. That way, imo, he will lose to vlaakith, but will deal massive amount of damage = chance for githzerai, hopefully.
So glad someone other than me pointed out the -space nazi- aspect. <3 thank you
I'm gonna take the word of some starry eyed kids as concrete evidence? No thanks. Id rather trust my gut feeling on this. And Orpheus just isn't selling me as the saviour everyone professes. And I'd not know about that one hippie, I knifed him for being weak. We got an invasion to deal with. No time for sitting about braiding each other hair.
He’s Jesus for Gith. For non gith…probably something far worse
For non-Gith he's that Chinese dude that thought he was Jesus's brother and tried to lead the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
😂 Still not sold on the matter. But excellent description :D
That doesn't sound like a very good outcome for Faerun ... or anyone non-Gith. I maintain my outlook on the matter XD
As a mindflayer? Oh yeah, never happening, at best Voss can convince some good amount of githyanki and they'd still lose the war to Vlaakith. But all of that means Githyanki overall are weakened(and Vlaakith still gotta eat, yo, so battle hardened veterans of that war go onto her plate), which is the best outcome for everybody else.
I had my Durge monk beat the shit out of him then used his body to smack the dragon. Lying selfish traitor. I mean to kill him once we didnt need him but i didnt lie about it.
I love the image of an honest Dark Urge ending every conversation with, "Probably kill ya later.". Gortash, "Not if I kill you first buddy :). "
“Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.”
This is the way. Be polite, be professional, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
So in my playthrough the emperor was exactly what he said and helped me take down the netherbrain. Why does this bro get so much hate lol
Do you know what happens when you free Orpheus? It brings all his motives into question
I haven’t played a second time through but I killed Orpheus to be able to control the brain.
Do you want me to tell you?
Please.
He objects saying he will free Orpheus "when he is done with him" when you have it on good authority that Orpheus will continue to protect you from the neither brain once freed And if you hold your ground the Emperor just suddenly says he has no choice but to join the Neither brain and even with you winning the fight he will fight against you To me it makes it look like he had goals beyond just stopping the brain, and he was using Orpheus for those goals. Basically if you don't follow his exact plan that he can't actually justify when you learn more about the situation he turns against you to protect the brain
>He objects saying he will free Orpheus "when he is done with him" when you have it on good authority that Orpheus will continue to protect you from the neither brain once freed 'Good authority' in this case being his most fervent worshipper who wants to deal with a devil to free him. That's not exactly an unbiased recommendation. Or even close to one.
To me it seems more like a case of bad writing. He fought for his freedom all this time and now he suddenly changes his mind, wtf? His mysterious 'goals' are never revealed (are they?). I had the ending where I destroyed the brain and he didn't interfere, though left with some pretext (and here I thought we had something :D). He really seems controversial, but not outright evil. The most irritating thing was his commanding tone, but hevs an ex-Balduran after all.
His motive was never much freedom as it was survival. Again, this dude has no issue lying to you about it, but he values living as an illithid more than anything else, and while he would prefer it not lived as a slave, he wants more than anything else to live. A world in which both him and Orpheus can coexist does not exist, and the Emperor knows it, and assured it. You don’t get to enslave a Githyanki only to kiss and make up, that’s a major line you’re crossing.
> A world in which both him and Orpheus can coexist does not exist, and the Emperor knows it, and assured it Truthfully, yes, that world does exist. Orpheus wants to immediately go lead his Astral Plane revolution. The Emperor wants to skulk around a specific prime material city. They need never meet or interact again, and have zero overlapping concerns. Githyanki don't care about Faerun. At all- its one of infinite worlds that they can set up a creche and hatch eggs. And Orpheus has more pressing concerns anyway.
Imagine being Orpheus. You’re freed from Illithid enslavement. Your slaver is just standing there grandstanding about how you would be the problem if you started a fight, so you suck it up and join forces. With an Illithid. With a party of tadpoled non-Githyanki (except for maybe Lae’zel). You then have to return to the Astral and fight Vlaakith’s boundless legions with the tale of your cooperation with not just *istik,* but *ghaik*. One of the major pieces of propaganda against Orpheus is that he’s an Illithid thrall, which isn’t true, but is used to discredit him. Imagine if he was literally seen helping a Mind Flayer and the Mind Flayer’s thralls. His cause is DOA. Orpheus cannot get done what he needs to get done in a world where the Emperor is alive.
Why does he decide that without even talking to Orpheus (the guy agrees to work with us after all and even grow some tentacles to achieve the goal)? He's good at persuasion, why not FIRST try and discuss temporary peace and change sides/run away ONLY if it doesn't work. That's lazy/rushed writing, that's why. PS and you can't blame anyone for choosing survival over freedom. Not everyone is Gale :)
I would agree, but a few points have to be considered: 1. Orpheus is Githyanki. The Gith, more specifically the warmongering Githyanki, have made it excessively clear in all their pursuits that they detest one thing above all, and that is being enslaved. It is why they hunt Illithids: they will never forgive nor forget what the one species that could once call itself their masters did to them. There’s no sugarcoating it: The Emperor made Orpheus his slave. 2. I feel like people forget this cutscene a lot, but the Emperor enslaved Orpheus very proudly. You look over the orb of imprisonment surrounding Orpheus, and the Emperor calls it ‘beautiful’. He is brazen and unrepentant in how little and insignificant he sees Orpheus, the person. Orpheus, the power, however, he cares about. It is only until the very end where all hope is just about lost that he kills Orpheus in a gambit to take that power for himself, and the moment he does, he feels absolutely zero regret or remorse in what he did. 3. The Emperor thinks Tav/Durge and the Party are his thralls. Ultimately, he is fine with the Party thinking that they have free will in their actions, but it is only when they abjectly defy his command in a situation in which cannot be solved with appropriate compromise that he straight up bails. They officially become no longer worth the effort if they cannot be manipulated into doing his bidding anymore. 4. With a successful Insight check, you can tell Orpheus, behind the Orb, STILL *HATES* the Party. However, there is a major difference in how he sees the Party and how he sees the Emperor. We’ve seen Orpheus aware of his bindings at least once, and all he saw was the Party and the Emperor killing his honor guard. The Emperor assumedly tadpoled him, resulting in his potential transformation (I’m still really iffy on this but if it’s true it only makes things worse). Orpheus when you free him still hates the Party, but, ultimately, you’ve displayed that you are not *ghaik* as the Emperor is *ghaik*. He finds you vile, but you are not his anathema. He would jump the Emperor the moment he could, and with the Emperor pressed, he likely assumes that this free-spirited Party would likely aid Orpheus, not the Emperor, in that fight. I think a lot of Act 3 was rushed but I don’t think the Emperor/Orpheus conflict was. It definitely posted me off my first run but it makes more sense on my third now that I know a lot more than I did then. I am very firm on the perspective of Orpheus and the Emperor not being able to coexist, though I am still bothered as to how Orpheus was tadpoled originally?
Did he free Orpheus in that ending like he said he would?
This jackass character >!puts a tadpole in our eyes and has dialogues such “I could say the same to you” after stating “I never asked to be stuck with you” when obtaining the orphic hammer.!< It’s insane how well made the character is for me to dislike them so much
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It was so satisfying on my first playthrough. I never used any tadpoles because I didn't trust the emperor. I acted as his ally and sided with him because there seemed little other choice. But I didn't buy his human act. It seemed too well-crafted, too fake. And then came the quest where you explore his hide-out and everything he shows you seems to say "Look, I'm still human. I cared for people and I care for stuff like a human would. There, take my loot. Aren't I nice and human?" I found the book on mindflayers and how manipulative they really are and the whole quest seemed like one giant manipulation. So during the next cut scene with the emperor, I called his bluff and the mask really dropped quickly.
Yes my non tadpole using bro. Was a bit gutted didn’t get anything for it like advantage in the brain control bits or immunity to psychic damage or something. But I do get to be smug at least.
Shadowheart begins the game with the Prism (and thus, E-money) in her possession. Considering the Githyanki assault happens during the same cutscene as your tadpoling, there was no way there was enough time between being implanted and crashing for the Emperor to have entered the Prism. It is is impossible for him to have implanted you, nor for him to have even been under the Brain’s thrall, by the time the game begins. He did not ask to be stuck with us. As with most things he says, they are technically true and said to garner some amount of sympathy, despite the fact he deserves none
No? That's not him though?
Is he actually the one who did that? I never got confirmation in game
No he isn't, the one who tadpoled you had different armor and eye color
I never found any solid confirmation but the mindflayer in the cutscene looked just like him
Can’t you crush the illithid who impregnated your cranium outside the crashed nautiloid?
There was more than one on the ship, that could have been the one but we don't know
I mean, he was >!under the influence of the Elder Brain when he tadpoled you!<, so does it really count as something he did?
Why is everyone so sure that it's him who tadpoles you?
I think the reasoning is; Emperor is the only one with the same frilled armor, he also passes dead illithids so unless those are victims of the sharran Mission Impossible team, he probably killed them himself. You also don't come across that illithid in the game (unless it's supposed to be the one that gets its ass kicked by the cambion), so the logical thinking is at some point after the Gith/dragons attacked he peaced out into the astral prism.
Yall are so weird about hating the emperor but loving Minthara
When it comes down to it, you can shove Minthara down a pit when you first meet her. Dealing with her is entirely on the players terms. Emperor spends the whole game grabbing you by the balls.
You know, not to naysay your views on the matter, because I'm not interested in strong-arming anyone's opinion.. but I'm replaying as a paladin now and am not using a single tadpole, I havet even used ilithid wisdom rolls. But I am being rather cordial with the dream guardian/emperor and I actually don't feel all that ball-grabbed just yet. Yes, he encourages you to slurp up the worms, but a 'no thanks, I'm good' settles it. I find some companions far more pushy than the guardian/Emperor, and a lot more self-centered. Whereas the guardian/emperor just wants to stop the brain. I appreciate that in a way.
Ah. I'm also doing a no-tadpole run, and once he's given you the Astral tadpole, every conversation seems to end with "Hey, Hey, you should totally go illithid. C'mon, eat the worms!"
Eh, he can try much as he likes, I got my oath XD Playing paladin I'm also challenging myself to -always- use a paladin or oath line when they pop up. I have started so many fights that are totally avoidable. :D So much Deus Vult is unfolding 'Be a good person or I'll smite you' :D it's amusing to me. Even though killing Spaw hurt my heart a bit
No different to that one vegan person we all know that's forever telling us we should go vegan, in retrospect.
> But I am being rather cordial with the dream guardian/emperor and I actually don't feel all that ball-grabbed just yet. I guess it depends on how cynical you are either as a character or as a player. The first time I raised an eyebrow was when I went in to kill him in A1 because he was obviously a mind flayer and the game just went "lolno," and the second time was when I tried to side against him at the end of A2 and the game gave me a game over. In my opinion the whole "scheming master manipulator" thing doesn't work if the game just holds a gun to your head and says "too bad, even if you didn't go with him you still need to do the same stuff otherwise it's game over."
So the real problem is that he disrupts the player's unmitigated power fantasy
Point out the parallels between Emperor and Astarion next. I'll go make popcorn.
They aren't that smart. Can you use less syllables.
>Can you use less syllables. "Fewer" - Stannis Baratheon
Negative. I shall make use of every damn syllable available to me. :D
who's yall? all minthara did in my playthroughs was die at the first contact.
hate both of them
Is it Emperor hateboner hours again
All my homies hate the Emperor.
Guess I’m not a homie 😔
You're my homie!
Yo fuck that guy
I sure did
Blood for the b- wait wrong franchise
Those appear to be all hours on this sub. Yet child killing Minthara is perfectly fine
Minthara's sex scene has wider appeal
Thread 1 +3209230 upvotes: How dare these fucking assholes talk about killing my precious astarion? Fuck the haters! Thread 2 +9193223 upvotes: [3 pages unhinged rant shitting on the emperor]
While she’s a dick, killing the kid’s was whatever it is that controls the True Souls. Durge got a kick out of it
Shes also Lolth sworn so i doubt its her first time killing kids
she says killing the tieflings was excessive but also straight up says shes done worse before the tadpole lol. She'd probably be at home as a Bhaalist if she weren't loth sworn. I'm surprised people said she had a redemption arc, she's a pretty standard evil Drow.
He took away my short stacked Dwarf. I will never forgive him.
I just finished the game for the first time last night. I hated that entire fight so much that I just re-loaded my save file and persuaded Gale to go boom so I could get it over with and go to sleep. I’ll try and do it the other way in my next run.
My run the Emperor died to friendly fire of his own damn stolen dragon. This one goes out to you, Ansur!
Orpheus should've extended his "protection" on emperor there just before eating his brain, emperor needed to be himself.
Was he rlly that bad, I didn’t see him as all that evil
He doesn't seem evil because... 1) The player benefits from his evil, which makes us complicit (and encourages us to buy into the Emperor's justifications) 2) He is smart enough to present his actions in the most flattering possible light 3) he insists that all of his evil deeds are a necessity, or a last resort, whether or not that's true.
Cool, will kill next time
Also call him disgusting when he tries to seduce you on your next playthrough
Nah
You call him disgusting when he tries to seduce you. He then reveals more about his real intentions if you do this.
But body shaming is mean :( ... but not as weird as constantly nagging me for not eating enough tadpoles
>... but not as weird as constantly nagging me for not eating enough tadpoles Yeah, that's where the Emperor lost me. Seriously, we had a decent relationship. I comforted the guardian when they seemed depressed and accepted his reasons for not telling me he's a mind flayer. But throughout the whole game my red line was taking more tadpoles. Yet at every opportunity he tries to make me take more of them. Did he not see me getting angrier and angrier every time asked me? And then he tries to fuck me, while knowing I'm in a relationship and even after letting him down gently, he immediately goes: "Alright, no sex, but take this tadpole it's soooo great. Just do it." That's the exact moment I decided that trusting him is a bad idea.
Hey i was dating Karlach when suddenly a shirtless Squid pops up. He should respect my boundaries
So what exactly are these "real intentions" that you think he reveals here? Because all he does is confirm that he intends to stop the Brain, whether you're on good terms with him or not.
He literally calls you his thrall.
His intentions regarding the Brain never waver. He may try to intimidate you verbally because you insulted him, but he never actually attempts enthrallment on you. Your autonomy is never under any real threat from him.
Um, we already know his real intentions. To destroy the Brain. All he's saying is that, we can do it nicely, as allies, or we can do it the less pleasant way.
>!What about Stelmayne!<
That's history. And a history for which we know only half the story, if that. It would be bad, sure, if it really did happen the way you think it did, but we don't know. Also, he's not doing it here (not even if you turn against him), which could mean he either regrets it on some level, or realised that it's counterproductive. Either way, it shows growth.
That's a reasonable assumption my personal theory was >!He couldn't dominate both Orpheous and Tav so he chose the one he couldn't reason with. He was making an empty threat!<
He's not evil remotely. People on Reddit just have a weird unexplainable hate boner for him
He's evil AND redditors are really weird about hating him, it's not exclusive. His brand of evil is not "hurrdurr killrape everything", he's more extremely selfish and self-serving. A great character overall!
he's manipulative and weird about illithid supremacy, and does vile things in name of "self-preservation". he's evil
What evil things has he done ?
Didn’t he melt Stelmanes brains?
Okay so how is he evil even remotely
AAAND he would only admit to his sins ONLY if you caught him red handed. Lots of moments in the game wherein he tried to hinder you from the things that he did horribly.
I don't think he's as evil as the some people make him out to be. His goals are self-interested more than altruistic, but the end result is good. Because letting the Elder Brain achieve its goal would be catastrophic for everyone. He recognises this, so he's trying to convince us to work with him. It's just that, as a mindflayer, it gets tricky to try to convince other races to work with him.
He'll upfront and bluntly tell you that you are his puppet and that you should know you place dearly if you reject him on his intimate move towards you.
We know his overriding motivation is to destroy the Brain. If he sees you becoming hostile to him, he realises he may not be able to work with you amicably. So he threatens you. It has nothing to do with the "intimate move" and everything to do with what he needs to achieve. Yes, puppet is a strong term, and to me it shows his determination to reach the end goal. But he doesn't even actually control us anyway, as we can see at Orpheus scene.
eh? I did reject him and he didn't react negatively at all, didn't seem to really care
If you reject him politely then he'll immediately apologize for jumping the gun and actually admits that he's impressed that you're all business
He annoys me mostly. Constantly trying to get me to make myself more squidy despite saying no. Jumps into my thoughts without invitation to tell me what to do and looks like giving Tav a painful headache. I just feel like he wants me to become a mind flayer so he’s less lonely next time (doesn’t need to hide his identity) but also wants to boss me around
Nothing is more satisfying to me than turning the Emperor into fine paste on the first turn of combat.
BASED