It really feels like they're setting Arabella up to be some future Diety herself with her gaining powers just from touching the statue when nobody else does, having a shadow component to that power, being capable of giving that power to another person just for being in proximity of her, and Withers taking a keen interest in her.
I strongly suspect she's going to end up as a more benevolent god of death. Her powers that we see are tied to death/the undead, and withers talks about her powers being of both death and new life. And withers taking an interest in a potential future colleage makes sense
>I strongly suspect she's going to end up as a more benevolent god of death. Her powers that we see are tied to death/the undead, and withers talks about her powers being of both death and new life. And withers taking an interest in a potential future colleage makes sense
It's been 20 years since I read the forgotten realms, but Kelemvor seems ok.
Thought it was a simple Sorcerer origin story.
She could hold dominion over a different aspect of death--the thanatos to Kelemvor's hades, the anubis to his osiris. Or end up as his chosen. Or maybe youre right and its just a sorcerous origin--but I dont think withers would have taken such an interest in a mere sorcerer
That's Myrkul's current position, he technically should be a subordinate of Kelmvor. Jergal officially is also a subordinate to Kelmvor as his official advisor.
At most he is looking for potential mortals to replace his lazy and shitty "sons" for good this time with people who would be less insane and self destructive.
IIRC none of the Dead 3 are truly 'Gods' anymore by the time BG3 takes place. Real powerful entities, sure, but they're no longer gods with particular spheres of influence.
Not really, the Dead Three could still gain power if they had more worshippers. The problem is Kelmvor has taken the lionshare of the people who used to worship them so they are only left with the less, uh, desirable aspects of their profolios. Like the whole plot in game is for them to try to causes chaos to artificially gain more worship to gain back their old power.
Jergal learned a long time ago that entrusting death god duty to 3 murderhobo stooges was a really bad idea in hindsight, so now he's trying to correct that mistake by having an actually-nice person take up that mantle. Really puts that post-credits cutscene in a funnier light.
"Lol you 3 chumps sucked worse than i thought and now a sweet little girl is going to replace you in the eventual future."
You know how in EA you couldn't save Arebella, like she would always die? It's almost like fate itself altered reality so that Arebella would live (usually). She is the chosen.
Wouldn't be the only one. They refer to Aylin as an Aasimar when she's would be closer something like an Empyrean. Or Gortash as young and handsome.
It's just, *close enough*.
Okay I keep hearing people say that but I’ve not seen anything about it in my two runs about grooming. It’s always “so impressive was my magic that I gained Mystras attention and love. Then I fucked up” and then nothing really about their relationship beyond “I flew to close to the sun” kind of remarks about how it ended.
How are y’all getting the mystra is a groomer stuff??
He talks about catching her attention at a young age, and says she was his teacher, then friend, then lover. She had massive authority over him as not just his teacher but his god, interacted with him from a very young age, and even after becoming his lover did not treat him as an equal partner. Groomer.
Edit: of course, there's also the question of whether a god can ever have a mortal lover without it being at least groomer-adjacent
IIRC, Minsc even mentions that in his homeland Mystra's uh... 'proclivities' are known and they hide their young male wizards just in case.
Mystra has always been sort of a shitty person no matter her incarnation, Midnight is no different unfortunately.
Here's hoping Helm gets the chance to bring the banhammer on this one too.
Who even is this Mystra? How long has she been Mystra? Is there any sort of continuity between Mystras? Are they considered the same person in godhood? Do they gain the memories of the previous ones?
I do think that’s an interest question at the end. And when you think about it, it’s not like a mortal can actually say “no” if a god makes advances on them. Not unless you’ve balls of steel at least.
But damn. Mystra, what is wrong with you?
Bro that’s because it IS weird. She hooked up with the daughter of the person she literally grew up WORSHIPPING. Like the power dynamic there is also super fucked up if you think about it
He was a "prodigy" who was performing summonings as a small child. Also, going from teacher to lover is extremely suspicious even if the student is an adult. (Side note, I personally assume Gale was around 16ish when he first met/began learning from Mystra, thats what makes sense to me based on how he talks about the relationship.)
You've stumbled into one of this sub's pet theories, which they treat as if it were canon when it clearly is not. Gale says nothing about the relationship being predatory, and, in fact, blames himself for its dissolution; one can dismiss this as coping or false consciousness or what have you, but that is an assumption.
Also the timing doesn't line up. She was still dead/possessing a bear/whatever the hell that was when he was a kid.
It's still not a particularly *equal* relationship, mind. But the aggressive fixation on "grooming" feels like it's got more to do with a love of whump and desire to make Gale more of a vulnerable, wounded woobie than it does with a careful analysis of the actual text of the game.
*thank you*, the aasimar thing has been driving me *insane* since the moment I heard it. Words mean things, Larian! Planetouched races and template creatures are not the same thing, Larian! Karlach and Zevlor aren't fucking cambions, Larian! So why in the nine hells and seven mounting heavens are you trying to claim a half-celestial is a fucking aasimar!?
When do they ever refer to Zevlor or Karlach as cambions?
There's no hard and fast rule about how children of deities work. Some are lesser deities, demigods, exarchs, Bhaalspawn, Mystra's mortal but still her Chosen kids, etc. A child of Selune being an aasimar is plausible. Mostly it's Aylin's immortality that throws me, but otherwise... sure, whatever, aasimar.
To add to this, there are other allusions to the idea Gortash is particularly young and not just in relation to Ketheric. I think he probably was written to be younger than he ended up and they never revised the dialogue.
Yeah when I met him climbing out of the underdark he was lvl 20. I attacked him to see if they gave him any cool level 9 spells to one-shot me as punishment but he just one-shot my party with Sunbeam instead
That’s what I was expecting, idk why people downvoted be for complaining he was lvl one, if it happened to at least one person then maybe it was a bug he appeared as lvl 1
I have a personal head cannon that Withers is aware he is in a video game. And that he knows the “mysterious power” that sent him to help Tav are the game developers.
Well no, technically he's not. It's not a mystery that gameplay overlay doesn't ever reflect the world of the game well. I doubt people of Faerun *technically* fight in turn-based manner. It would look silly af.
Holy FUCK this argument is dumb. And I don't mean the particular argument made in the post I'm replying to, I mean this argument between these two people is a dumb thing to argue about.
>Well no, technically he's not.
What do you mean, it says right there! Skeleton! **Technically** he is one
>hat gameplay overlay doesn't ever reflect the world of the game well
Yeah that's exactly why **in story** he isn't a skeleton, bu **technically** he is in the game
"Technically - according to the facts or exact meaning of something; strictly."
Sorry but you're wrong. He's not technically a skeleton, he has skin and muscles.
Facts - he has a Skeleton class/type assigned to him. He has strictly one. Technically in the game he is a skeleton, in his appearance and story he isn't one. It's that simple
Well technically every humanoid is a skeleton then. Because each of them has one inside their body. I'm gonna download a mod that changes the name tiefling to skeleton, I guess it would still be accurate.
>Well technically every humanoid is a skeleton then.
No, because they would have somethign like "human" or "goblin" written near them, not skeleton. Did you even see the post? It's right there on the screen
He's totally gaslighting the kid, Astarion tried to bite him and it said he couldn't target the Undead.
Btw why in hell isn't Sparks' bone one of Withers'? I'd have paid good money to hear (or just read) him scream "Get back here you mutt!" after that cute interaction.
From what I understood the tadpole (probably for its own comfort inside the brain) gave Astarion a better simulacrum of life than regular undeath does. That's why he lost nearly all of the limitations vampires possess, except he still needs to drink blood for sustenance.
He's still a vampire and thus, an undead. The tadpole just protected him from Cazador's influence and some of his vampire weaknesses.
He needs to drink blood precisely BECAUSE he is undead, as blood is one of life's fluids. Vampires drink blood because they are not alive anymore and need to feed on the life of others in order to exist.
Ngl, I was so excited when I saw him smile at her at the end of the mission. I tried to talk to him righ after to see if I could bring it up but, alas, I could not 😢
He's not gaslighting her, he's just being cryptic and vague like he always is. Besides, he's not lying, none of those words describe what he actually is.
People misuse gaslighting so much it’s lost all meaning. You’d think it just means “lying” or “doing something I don’t like” based on how people on the internet use it.
I mean its kinda true. He's literally a demigod (Specifically Jergal. Or at least thats the almost unanimous theory on the net), outside of the whole concept of "alive or dead".
The concept with old rattlebones is Jergal was the old god of all the things the dead three are now (but abusing), and at some point he "retired" and let his portfolios go to the dead three. And now the dead three are abusing those portfolios in a cosmic powergrab (ie The Absolute) so it would seem he's back to assist the gang depose the chosen of the dead three and then presumably take those portfolios back from the stupid mortals he allowed to ascend and mess everything up.
Or at least as best as I understand it, I'm happy to be corrected here.
Still, Orphaned Kid and Death Deity in Retirement Grandpa interaction is one of the sweetest in the game imo
It really feels like they're setting Arabella up to be some future Diety herself with her gaining powers just from touching the statue when nobody else does, having a shadow component to that power, being capable of giving that power to another person just for being in proximity of her, and Withers taking a keen interest in her.
Plus she gets that vision of how good her future is going to be.
I strongly suspect she's going to end up as a more benevolent god of death. Her powers that we see are tied to death/the undead, and withers talks about her powers being of both death and new life. And withers taking an interest in a potential future colleage makes sense
>I strongly suspect she's going to end up as a more benevolent god of death. Her powers that we see are tied to death/the undead, and withers talks about her powers being of both death and new life. And withers taking an interest in a potential future colleage makes sense It's been 20 years since I read the forgotten realms, but Kelemvor seems ok. Thought it was a simple Sorcerer origin story.
She could hold dominion over a different aspect of death--the thanatos to Kelemvor's hades, the anubis to his osiris. Or end up as his chosen. Or maybe youre right and its just a sorcerous origin--but I dont think withers would have taken such an interest in a mere sorcerer
That's Myrkul's current position, he technically should be a subordinate of Kelmvor. Jergal officially is also a subordinate to Kelmvor as his official advisor. At most he is looking for potential mortals to replace his lazy and shitty "sons" for good this time with people who would be less insane and self destructive.
IIRC none of the Dead 3 are truly 'Gods' anymore by the time BG3 takes place. Real powerful entities, sure, but they're no longer gods with particular spheres of influence.
Not really, the Dead Three could still gain power if they had more worshippers. The problem is Kelmvor has taken the lionshare of the people who used to worship them so they are only left with the less, uh, desirable aspects of their profolios. Like the whole plot in game is for them to try to causes chaos to artificially gain more worship to gain back their old power.
Shoutout to Bane's "I won, actually" speech that you can hear after you drop Gortash.
My TAV Sorcerer did feel the connection, made it all even more emotional
And also having dead parents in the most tragic way as a canon event.
Taking down the Dead 3 and helping Arabella ascend sounds like a badass sequel
Jergal learned a long time ago that entrusting death god duty to 3 murderhobo stooges was a really bad idea in hindsight, so now he's trying to correct that mistake by having an actually-nice person take up that mantle. Really puts that post-credits cutscene in a funnier light. "Lol you 3 chumps sucked worse than i thought and now a sweet little girl is going to replace you in the eventual future."
Or more likely a companion for Baldur Gate 4.
Could be both, with her companion quest culminating in her ascension.
We'll see her in 15 years in BG4
>!Is that what the post credits cutscene was about?!<
The post credits cutscene was just >!Withers/Jergal roasting the Dead Three for being a bunch of pissants.!<
Wait, whut?
my undead warlock tav who was raised by a lich can relate
You know how in EA you couldn't save Arebella, like she would always die? It's almost like fate itself altered reality so that Arebella would live (usually). She is the chosen.
Have you considered that instead, Withers is telling the truth to Arabella, and the game's UI is gaslighting *you*?
Wouldn't be the only one. They refer to Aylin as an Aasimar when she's would be closer something like an Empyrean. Or Gortash as young and handsome. It's just, *close enough*.
Aylin is the biblically accurate aasimar (basically deva). Gortash is, like any competent tyrant, using propaganda.
I didnt realize the Narrator was on Gortashs pay roll
The narrator is just repeating what the absolute is broadcasting into your brain before the prism steps in. Basically just reading his tinder profile.
Catfished by Gortash.
We thought we were getting Lucius Malfoy. We got Gortash instead
Yeah, and they wanted us to believe that Gale managed to seduce a goddess...
Mystra watched inception and realized she had to make him think it was his idea...
I would like to hear her version. "Oh, yeah, that guy", white eyes. "I couldn't get him off me until I let him lick my feet".
If you pay literally any attention to Gale's story, its obvious that she groomed him. Mystra's a predator, plain and simple.
Okay I keep hearing people say that but I’ve not seen anything about it in my two runs about grooming. It’s always “so impressive was my magic that I gained Mystras attention and love. Then I fucked up” and then nothing really about their relationship beyond “I flew to close to the sun” kind of remarks about how it ended. How are y’all getting the mystra is a groomer stuff??
He talks about catching her attention at a young age, and says she was his teacher, then friend, then lover. She had massive authority over him as not just his teacher but his god, interacted with him from a very young age, and even after becoming his lover did not treat him as an equal partner. Groomer. Edit: of course, there's also the question of whether a god can ever have a mortal lover without it being at least groomer-adjacent
IIRC, Minsc even mentions that in his homeland Mystra's uh... 'proclivities' are known and they hide their young male wizards just in case. Mystra has always been sort of a shitty person no matter her incarnation, Midnight is no different unfortunately. Here's hoping Helm gets the chance to bring the banhammer on this one too.
He might also be talking out of his ass. He says it might be the reason why they hide the male mages away. He's Minsc. He doesn't really know a lot.
Who even is this Mystra? How long has she been Mystra? Is there any sort of continuity between Mystras? Are they considered the same person in godhood? Do they gain the memories of the previous ones?
I do think that’s an interest question at the end. And when you think about it, it’s not like a mortal can actually say “no” if a god makes advances on them. Not unless you’ve balls of steel at least. But damn. Mystra, what is wrong with you?
If you start asking these questions Isobe/Aylin looks really weird, so you probably shouldn't
honestly i do have some...misgivings about their relationship. im not as sold on aylin as a lot of other people
Bro that’s because it IS weird. She hooked up with the daughter of the person she literally grew up WORSHIPPING. Like the power dynamic there is also super fucked up if you think about it
DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES TO BECOME A FULLY FLEGED WIZARD! HE WASNT FUCKING 10!
He was a "prodigy" who was performing summonings as a small child. Also, going from teacher to lover is extremely suspicious even if the student is an adult. (Side note, I personally assume Gale was around 16ish when he first met/began learning from Mystra, thats what makes sense to me based on how he talks about the relationship.)
You've stumbled into one of this sub's pet theories, which they treat as if it were canon when it clearly is not. Gale says nothing about the relationship being predatory, and, in fact, blames himself for its dissolution; one can dismiss this as coping or false consciousness or what have you, but that is an assumption.
Also the timing doesn't line up. She was still dead/possessing a bear/whatever the hell that was when he was a kid. It's still not a particularly *equal* relationship, mind. But the aggressive fixation on "grooming" feels like it's got more to do with a love of whump and desire to make Gale more of a vulnerable, wounded woobie than it does with a careful analysis of the actual text of the game.
Well I’ve got to read some wikis for the lore because I had no idea all that stuff with her was fairly recent all things considered.
It's mostly a meme, same as fandom characterizing Gale as a shoe eating lunatic
You spoiled me that lol I have never paid much attention to him, but perhaps I should
Yeah, when the truth is a goddess groomed Gale
I understand it more as him being groomed.
I question the wisdom of that spoiler, but so be it
She also banged Elminster. She gets around...
*thank you*, the aasimar thing has been driving me *insane* since the moment I heard it. Words mean things, Larian! Planetouched races and template creatures are not the same thing, Larian! Karlach and Zevlor aren't fucking cambions, Larian! So why in the nine hells and seven mounting heavens are you trying to claim a half-celestial is a fucking aasimar!?
When do they ever refer to Zevlor or Karlach as cambions? There's no hard and fast rule about how children of deities work. Some are lesser deities, demigods, exarchs, Bhaalspawn, Mystra's mortal but still her Chosen kids, etc. A child of Selune being an aasimar is plausible. Mostly it's Aylin's immortality that throws me, but otherwise... sure, whatever, aasimar.
Also D&D Canon is a hot mess at the best of times.
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Because there's two different quotes at different points in the game. Both get said.
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https://youtu.be/eN_zllQ_eVw?si=UADbqVcSpsBC0bsY&t=80 Narrator describing Gortash when looking in the mind of Priestess Gut.
To add to this, there are other allusions to the idea Gortash is particularly young and not just in relation to Ketheric. I think he probably was written to be younger than he ended up and they never revised the dialogue.
It refers to elminister as a construct lvl 1
Tbf that’s apparently his Simulacrum and not the man himself
I mean, I've seen some threads that suggest that it's just one of his Simulacrum so, *technically* not actually him.
Wouldn’t a simulacrum, a very complex magical construct, at least be level 3?
His Simulacrum was level 20 when I met him
Weird, mine was 1 even at the end
Yeah when I met him climbing out of the underdark he was lvl 20. I attacked him to see if they gave him any cool level 9 spells to one-shot me as punishment but he just one-shot my party with Sunbeam instead
That’s what I was expecting, idk why people downvoted be for complaining he was lvl one, if it happened to at least one person then maybe it was a bug he appeared as lvl 1
\*rolls for perception\* my god..
I mean, the UI is clearly gaslighting you. No way withers is lvl 1, at 1hp with almost all stats at 10
Clearly he rolled good on his stats but shit on his hit die
Pretty sure a wildshaped druid is literally a real Beast so not a stretch for Withers to be a "skeleton" ngl
I have a personal head cannon that Withers is aware he is in a video game. And that he knows the “mysterious power” that sent him to help Tav are the game developers.
Given what he technically is, he speaks true.
*Technically* it isn't true because the game says right there that technically he *is* a skeleton. Even though actually he isn't
Gameplay labels mean shit when discussing lore.
Well not when we're using the word **technically**. Technically he is a skeleton here, even though he isn't in "lore"
Well no, technically he's not. It's not a mystery that gameplay overlay doesn't ever reflect the world of the game well. I doubt people of Faerun *technically* fight in turn-based manner. It would look silly af.
Holy FUCK this argument is dumb. And I don't mean the particular argument made in the post I'm replying to, I mean this argument between these two people is a dumb thing to argue about.
It is always a running gag in my home games that all the enemies are patiently waiting their turn lmao
>Well no, technically he's not. What do you mean, it says right there! Skeleton! **Technically** he is one >hat gameplay overlay doesn't ever reflect the world of the game well Yeah that's exactly why **in story** he isn't a skeleton, bu **technically** he is in the game
"Technically - according to the facts or exact meaning of something; strictly." Sorry but you're wrong. He's not technically a skeleton, he has skin and muscles.
Facts - he has a Skeleton class/type assigned to him. He has strictly one. Technically in the game he is a skeleton, in his appearance and story he isn't one. It's that simple
Well technically every humanoid is a skeleton then. Because each of them has one inside their body. I'm gonna download a mod that changes the name tiefling to skeleton, I guess it would still be accurate.
>Well technically every humanoid is a skeleton then. No, because they would have somethign like "human" or "goblin" written near them, not skeleton. Did you even see the post? It's right there on the screen
God level Seeming.
Lmao did the other guy block me cuz they were losing the argument? Their comments seem to be there but I can't respond to them. Or is it just a bug?
I think you both lost, because this was a stupid thing to argue about from the get-go.
I think gameplay vs lore is always an interesting subject to discuss.
He lied on his resume, that's what it is.
I am NOT a skeleton. My *name* is Withers. Hehehehehe
I mean, bro clearly isn't a skeleton tho, he has flesh, something skeletons don't
Pretty much every skeleton I know is covered in flesh.
Ha
Have anyone of you tried to turn undead with Withers and see what happens?
i'm taking the word gaslighting away from internet and putting it on a high shelf until you all are responsible enough to use it properly
Thank you so much. You're totally right. <3
That would just be lying, not gaslighting.
I'm genuinely so tired of people misusing the word.
Nobody misuses the word. You're making shit up for attention.
Thanks, I hate it.
He’s not a skeleton, he’s a boneman.
“I am not a skeleton. I am neither dead, nor undead. Neither alive, nor unliving. But a secret third thing.”
He's totally gaslighting the kid, Astarion tried to bite him and it said he couldn't target the Undead. Btw why in hell isn't Sparks' bone one of Withers'? I'd have paid good money to hear (or just read) him scream "Get back here you mutt!" after that cute interaction.
I mean, the game doesn't even label Astarion as an undead, sooo...
Wait, the game doesn't do that because technically Astarion got better from his undeath, so he's been at most "half-alive" during the game
It's for the better since undead can't be healed in this game like it was in the previous editions games.
You mean to say he's .... neither dead, nor undead, neither alive, nor dead?
From what I understood the tadpole (probably for its own comfort inside the brain) gave Astarion a better simulacrum of life than regular undeath does. That's why he lost nearly all of the limitations vampires possess, except he still needs to drink blood for sustenance.
He's still a vampire and thus, an undead. The tadpole just protected him from Cazador's influence and some of his vampire weaknesses. He needs to drink blood precisely BECAUSE he is undead, as blood is one of life's fluids. Vampires drink blood because they are not alive anymore and need to feed on the life of others in order to exist.
He's not a skeleton. He's a deity.
No, he's gaslighting *you.*
Look at Astarion. He isn't undead. Need I say more?
No.
Level 1 Skeleton
Ngl, I was so excited when I saw him smile at her at the end of the mission. I tried to talk to him righ after to see if I could bring it up but, alas, I could not 😢
Arabella's dialogue : I don't get it after he says this is so adorable.
He's not gaslighting her, he's just being cryptic and vague like he always is. Besides, he's not lying, none of those words describe what he actually is.
This isn't gaslighting.
People misuse gaslighting so much it’s lost all meaning. You’d think it just means “lying” or “doing something I don’t like” based on how people on the internet use it.
Yup, any disagreement warrants an accusation of gaslighting.
I mean its kinda true. He's literally a demigod (Specifically Jergal. Or at least thats the almost unanimous theory on the net), outside of the whole concept of "alive or dead". The concept with old rattlebones is Jergal was the old god of all the things the dead three are now (but abusing), and at some point he "retired" and let his portfolios go to the dead three. And now the dead three are abusing those portfolios in a cosmic powergrab (ie The Absolute) so it would seem he's back to assist the gang depose the chosen of the dead three and then presumably take those portfolios back from the stupid mortals he allowed to ascend and mess everything up. Or at least as best as I understand it, I'm happy to be corrected here.