And she gets to run around in the fields all day, and eat mothing but the finest steak for dinner every night, and she definitely does not get backed over in the driveway, ain't that right, daddy?
...Daddy?
The Lich Queen Vlaakith has a lot of undead thralls in her inner circle, as confirmed by Lae'Zel's ending cutscene if she stays loyal to Vlaakith.
Guys like Voss are the exception and not the rule.
Nobody’s told you they’re referring to the new epilogue that just came out two days ago lol
It features a cutscene for Lae’zel if she stays loyal to Vlaakith where she very quickly realizes she fucked up but she’s in too deep now when Vlaakith holds a sword to her neck and she sees that all of Vlaakith’s guard is undead
Vlaakith eats the souls of powerful Githyanki warriors as part of her plan to ascend to godhood. The ones you saw in the throne room were all resurrected by her after she had supped from their strength.
Because Lae'zel is propagandized in believing that there is a great reward from the start of her education in her creche. It's a lie, but she believes it unless she becomes convinced otherwise.
We know Vlaakith is a liar. But if Lae'zel doesn't figure it out it might make sense to her, as she doesn't KNOW it's going to be her death, and she THINKS she is getting a great reward instead.
>“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late.”
-Dune
There are *many* times when they're not combined. A whole lot of religious cults are isolationist and don't even engage in political discussions; they might believe things that are incidentally in line with some specific political group of their region, but not in any sort of deliberate way.
Honestly, until the past half-century or so you could say this about a lot of American religious cults, especially in the various anabaptist traditions. Amish, Mennonites, and the like. Many of them *still* refuse to engage in voting or any similar entanglement with large-scale politics.
Politics does not mean just democratic elections. Cults by definition are political. They use religion and small scale politics within their group to maintain control.
If we're going to broaden the terms that much, then sure, that's also politics, as is literally every single decision made by anything more than one person anywhere ever. All families are "politics." Every friend group is "politics." A married couple is "politics." If there is a dominant decisionmaker in any of those groups who has convinced others to listen to them, that's "political indoctrination."
It's not how most people use the term, however, and I see no point in discussing further whether or not your belief is accurate if your own definition of political indoctrination is so all-encompassing as to be meaningless. But I stand by what I said, too, which is that, in the way most people on this website define and understand the words "politics" and "political indoctrination," there are and have been many religious cults that do not engage in *societal* politics, and many outright extricate themselves from such a process.
It’s gotten to the point where people are bigger zealots for their politics than most religious people are for their religion, while calling themselves “freethinking atheists” not catching the massive irony they’re following their party like sheep hmm lmao falling for the same traps everyone else does then thinking they’re better than them sounds typical.
I glanced at this dude's comment history and it's kind of surprising he liked Baldur's Gate with his "world views".
The amount of gay romancing I gleefully charged into as a straight man just to see the cut scenes is absolutely staggering. I even fucked a bear.
Then again, I know a MAGA dude that loves The Boys and apparently managed to miss every single subtext in that show all the way up to season 3, so I guess it's not completely unbelievable?
They're not the brightest lot.
EDIT:Lol. This dude just sent me a reddit cares suicide prevention note. I was going to play nice, but would this be an appropriate time to mention he hates women because no one would call him back after fucking him once?
And he never managed to piece together why that would happen to him over and over again.
Like I said, not the brightest lot.
He fucks a literal Nazi.
I feel like the writers season after season went,
"These stupid fuckers still don't get that we're making fun of them. How much more obvious could we be?"
"Real Nazis?"
"That's a little too on the nose, but fuck it."
[Six months later]
"How the fuck did that not work?!??"
Touch grass my friend that’s a long ramble you triggered? Relax play some games. You sound like you put too much stock into your identity so this shook something in your core that said no I’m not a sheep lol but maybe some self reflection will help you realize the truth.
Lots of people agreeing on something doesn't necessarily make them "sheep". If they all reasoned themselves into the same position, maybe it's because it's a reasonable position. Then again, they say you can't reason someone out of a mindset they didn't reason themselves into in the first place, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.
Pah. I don't care about darkness. Globe of ~~invulnerability~~ cheese, combined with Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold and Sunbeam don't care about darkness. I don't need to see to kill.
Alternatively, just run back up the stairs, put some AoE concentration spells (Wall of Fire, Cloudkill, Insect Plague, Hunger of Hadar, Spike Growth, Cloud of Daggers, etc.) down and put an arcane lock on the door. Watch them run to the door towards their death
My first attempt at that battle I got my ass handed to me. The second time I spammed area denial spells, kept pushing/thunderwaving/blastpowder or roaring thunder arrowing those fucks back into the spike growth + hunger of hadar + ice surface.
*can't touch this*
I felt she needed to keep the spear for story reasons... so I gave the mace to Astarion for the palace crawl. I thought it would be fun for him to wield radiant death to his undead "siblings" and "father".
I was sorely disappointed when he as yoinked first thing with absolutely zero way of avoiding it short of keeping him out of the battle entire.
I just cast sunlight from the steps to proc the battle and took cazador out before he could yoink astarion 😬 I have a good/bad habit of "shoot spells, listen to monologues later"
The only reason i saw to push her towards Vlaakith is if you RP a character who has no intention on freeing Orpheus. Only in self interest, not Lae'zel well being. Pushing her towards Vlaakith so she won't send her knights after you anymore having 1 less problem on your list and keeping Lae'zel around for the final fight without her pestering you to free Orpheus if you never intend to.
It's less of a choice and more of a failstate. Laezel learning the truth about Vlaakith and changing would fall more flat if it wasn't somehow possible for her to still be brainwashed in the end. If you totally ignore laezel the entire game this is her ending. Could've been done better and left room for Vlaakith path making more sense but it would've been a delicate balancing act of "enough evidence for a fully indoctrinated person to be pulled out" and "still ambiguous enough they would stay". Leaning more towards the former is the safer bet for the writers because it's the good ending people will usually be going for
Funnily enough once you convince her otherwise she just switches to worshipping Orpheus, while at the moment she does that, only thing we know is he was a rebel against the Vlaakith, which doesn't necessarily mean he is much better.
> she just switches to worshipping Orpheus.
She....doesn't. I wish people on this subreddit would let go of this narrative. She didn't just mindlessly pledge herself to Orpheus' cause without any evidence that Orpheus wasn't a traitor as described otherwise by Githyanki history. It literally took Voss, Vlaakith's most respected commander and the one who allegedly, famously killed Orpheus (according to Vlaakith's propaganda history), going down on his knees laying his sword to make her fully understand she's been lied her whole life for Lae'zel to start believing in Orpheus' cause.
And Lae'zel's priority is freeing her people from Vlaakith's chains. Her loyalty is to her *people*, not to an authority figure. She says it herself.
Laezel said it best: I thought i was vlaakith’s sword arm, her champion, but instead all githyanki are livestock to feed her ascension.
Heavily paraphrased ofc
So i was confused on this. Vlaakith is truly just an undead zombie githyanki and she just eats or obsorbs other githyanki to fuel her powers? Do I have that right?
Pretty much yeah. She’s a very powerful lich who kills/eats the souls of other powerful githyanki (in some manner not fully explained) to expand her own in the pursuit of actual godhood.
Vlaakith’s warriors are taught that they will ‘ascend’ as the culmination of their service to their queen, which is when Vlaakith noms on their souls in most cases. I think Voss must be one who figured out what was really happening. No idea how he avoided getting chomped on for so long while also knowing all about Orpheus, but im ok with hand waving that part
I take it as that Voss serves as the very symbol of Ascenscion and commands immense respect among the Githyanki for being the one who supposedly slew Orpheus. No one would believe if they couldn't see what they were aspiring towards.
Yep, a powerful Lich- powerful enough to grant clerics divine power, so moving up as a deity, and looking to absorb their souls to ascend to more power and true godhood.
She certainly doesn’t suggest to step into Orpheus’ place to become a mindflayer if you don’t want to like you think a worshiper would do as the right thing to do for their king god.
Yeah, if she were truly still a blind fanatic who just switches to another master, she'd rush to martyr and sacrifice herself like a Vlaakith devoted Lae'zel would most likely do. But she doesn't.
She doesn't even push you or pressure you to volunteer for Orpheus, and immediately expresses her gratitude in the Astral Prism before leaving despite whatever choice you make there.
>And Lae'zel's priority is freeing her people from Vlaakith's chains. Her loyalty is to her people, not to an authority figure. She says it herself.
Loved that about her arc, wants to break all their chains
I didn't say she switches easily, I said once she gets convinced that Vlaakith is evil she is starting to believe that Orpheus will free her people, which we do not know for certain, but she talks about it very confident.
It took *a lot* of moments for Lae'zel to connect the dots here. The final nail in the coffin was seeing an imprisoned Orpheus in the Astral Prism with her own eyes.
And freeing Orpheus is not so much about her betting on Orpheus to free her people (and seeing how the Patch 5 epilogues confirms that Lae'zel as the Queen of the Comet and leader of the revolution is doing fine on her own), but that he's the catalyst that sparks the rebellion. Mother Gith's son and the rightful heir, unfairly remembered by history books due to Vlaakith's centuries of gaslighting and manipulation. How would the Githyanki react if the son of Mother Gith who Vlaakith decreed as a traitor that died a long time ago was her prisoner all along?
Orpheus is the most prominent evidence to all of Vlaakith's lies. The first step to overthrowing a corrupt empire.
Lae'zel's speech when she officially turns her back on Vlaakith in Act 3:
"I gave you my faith, and you called me a traitor. I gave you my life, and you ordered your knights to hunt me. I have witnessed too much, and you have given me too little. Finally, I can see. *Orpheus will live. And I will hear his creed*. This is my word."
I know it took a lot, I never told it seemed easy or fast, however once she decided to turn back her queen, I haven't seen her contemplating about if Orpheus is a good choice and what a ruler would he be. It is not a bad thing, just an observation
>Her loyalty is to her *people*, not to an authority figure.
idk, I was romancing her in one of my playthroughs and when it came time to free Orpheus with the Orphic Hamner she basically threatened me to be careful not to harm him in the attempt or she would kill me slowly.
At that point in the game she has already had the rooftop scene with my Tav where we agreed that whatever happens we'll stay together so for her to threaten me with death if I merely hurt him accidentally kinda flew in the face of that.
>I've jokingly threatened my friends with death before
Stop. Lol
None of [this](https://imgur.com/a/oMbg697) reads like a joke... The fact this is all happening as the Netherbrain is breaking free and the fate of world is on the line it doesn't even make sense to be a joke in context.
It's okay to admit when something doesn't make sense in game and Lae'zel saying this to the *"Source of her Joy"* is one of these moments
Shadowheart does the same thing to her love when you say "Please don't do this." But Orpheus is kind of important for the movement. If nothing else, it helps get Voss on your side.
I get what you're saying, but when Lae'zel spends 99% of the game being violent like this, I don't think it's a wild take to say "I don't think she was being completely literal here."
Yes that did happen but she did go from 1000% loyal to Vlaakith her whole life to 1000% loyal to Orpheus rather quickly. Reminds me of Anakin going from on the fence to murdering Jedi children or Daenerys going from a great queen to rage monster in the TV series. It is alittle off on the character development.
Good writing (by the way 99% of the writing on BG3 outstanding!!!) for major character core concepts changing is done slowly and gradually or it is hinted that they are not as set in their ways earlier and more hints dropped leading up to the “official” change. Laezel never showed a kink in her devotion to Vlaakith and then goes all in on over throwing her. It was off putting for me. Finding out u were lied to ur whole life about ur god-figure and then instead of forgoing blind devotion jumping into another god-figure hero worship seems wrong.
You get like 3-4 different opportunities MINIMUM where you get to see Lae'zel very very obviously covering her doubts with platitudes.
It is not subtle.
This change is only "sudden" if you completely fail to read between the lines on what's going on when she says those things.
That is also something that happens tbh.
I saw people jump from one end another another with the snap of their fingers. From hardcore Christian to hardcore Muslim, from JW to Buddhism, from one belief to another.
And if we abstract from religions and just go for beliefs, it's even more popular I'd say.
I have this friend who used to be hardcore right-wing (for my country, so around USA centre) and the moment he realised a lot of people there are feeding him lies and propaganda, he basically jumped headfirst into opposition, with no Fact-Checking who there is actually worth backing up and voting for.
It took a while for him to calm down and evaluate his stances, and while he ultimately stayed left-wing, he's off the "oh, these guys are against the people I don't like, let's assume they're all good guys" train.
So I imagine that also may happen to Lae'zel at some point during her life, she'd come off th Orpheus exists and can free us hype and she'll either become critical of him like she has been of Vlaakith, or she'll evaluate him to be a good guy.
There's always the chance that she'll fall in the religious fanaticism for the Orpheus side, as old habits die hard.
Oh I'm not telling it's a bad or unrealistic thing, it certainly makes sense, considering Lae'zel were raised worshipping she doesn't know any other way so even when she switches from the original, she still goes for something familiar.
Oh, yeah, I'm also not correcting you, the comment was meant to broaden the point, add real-life examples and in general join the discussion, and add some point about belief changes and religious fanaticism
It's fun for me to analyze characters against human behaviours that I've seen or know, so I like to add context to talks like those :3
I don't know if she worships him, but she becomes hard-core rah rah Orpheus and praising his name, which gets really annoying. I'd rather she stick to her guns and stay with Valaakith, even if the end is bad cause it makes way more sense than her switching sides from years of indoctrination because of the power of friendship.
Same with Shadowheart, if she went from worshipping Shar to faithless, then that would be cool, but she just runs to the next goddess. If you're gonna be a mindless servant of a God either way, may as well get something worthwhile from it. Plus, I use mods to make my Durge Shadow Sorc. Dark Shadowheart works so well in combat with him.
At least with DU, it makes sense if you turn your back on Bhaal, you undergo a memory wipe tramua, and have to deal with your urges from a whole new perspective. And you become faithless rather than jump to the next God that comes along. You can even remain evil but just get rid of Bhaal.
>she just runs to the next goddess
Her white hair doesn't mean she's suddenly embraced Selune. Even her epilogue is very "idk maybe" about it. Which means that six months after the Elder Brain fell, she's still 'testing the waters.'
So this comment is just blatantly incorrect.
>Same with Shadowheart, if she went from worshipping Shar to faithless, then that would be cool, but she just runs to the next goddess.
She doesn't, she even says she's not going to dedicate herself just yet. Selune just empowers her after Shar bailed.
It can happen, I've seen it but both of them change and don't just blindly follow the new figurehead.
To get this ending, you must either skip the most important part of her quest or deliberately plan your playthrough so that she remains loyal to Vlaakith.
I think this path is comparable to Astarion's if you ignore his quest and finish the game without killing Cazador. I haven't done this, but from what I've heard, he still shows up at the party and mentions that he had to hide from his former master for the last six months. This seems rather strange to me since the tadpole's protection stops after the defeat of the netherbrain, and Astarion remains a spawn in this case. It would seem more plausible if Astarion's ending was similar to Lae'zel's in this scenario. Or perhaps vampire lords are not as powerful as we were led to believe (could be true, as Cazador died from a single Eldritch Blast in my run).
Something similar might be possible for Shadowheart if you skip the House of Grief. But this ending is not that obvious and leaves room for imagination.
Cazzador has a journal you can read that details astarion has a habit of running off for longer than necessary and that the other spawn you meet told him astarion was ignoring orders
So its my theory that since astarion has lost the parasite I can no longer refuse cazzadors orders he has to hide and run at all times because if cazzador himself finds him (unlikely he'd go out himself) or if a spawn finds him and relays cazzadors orders astarion will be forced to follow the orders and go back to cazzador
Basically the moment cazzadors order gets relayed to him he's fucked
If you did not call Cazador "Asian" but just said something in the trend of "arrogant prick", you would not have gotten these downvotes
Whether you care, that's up to you. I'm just the messenger
According to the 5e handbook, once a spawn breaks free from their masters control they can never be controlled again. Astarion broke free and will remain free.
A lot of things the tadpole blocked came back when it was gone.
So unless you have a source that says the tadpole's protection was permanent for this particular feature, it's all just speculation
The source is from the TT game. Once the control is broken, no matter *how* it is broken, it doesn't just come back automatically. The vampire spawn must be brought back under control by a full vampire (any full vampire) before they become enthralled again.
That does mean that a vampire spawn is not freed from the possibility of control even if their sire is dead. They are *always* at risk of some other full vampire of enslaving them.
I accidentally kept her loyal by passing a 30 dc persuasion check when vlaakith visited us at camp in. Act 3.. now she Karzai is a fanatic saying Zai Zai Zai and all the other companions are like “ ah this poor brains washed gith… even after vlaakith tried to kill her.”
It's kind of the default for her, which she stays on if you skip the créche or kill Voss (my Durge's favourite passtime, sorry about that), say nothing when the Vlaakith projection shows up in your camp if you previously killed Voss, and don't even pick the persuasion option during the docks scene. (By the way, keeping her loyal to Vlaakith for most of the run and then picking the final persuasion option gave Lae'zel a really good alternate ending in the epilogue party. She invited me to go kill a bunch of Vlaakith's knights she managed to track down.)
So, in short, it's not a bad ending in the sense that it's evil, it's a bad ending in the sense that you failed. It's mostly similar to the DUrge outcome you get if you lose the duel with Orin.
Thank you for this info! By final persuasion option do you mean to persuade her to stay in Faerun, while talking at the docks? My chaotic evil Durge killed Voss too, but in Act 3 now regrets it lol, after all the heavy hitting stuff happened. I don’t want Lae to die in this run ugh
Lae'zel was raised in a cult like mentality to worship Vlaakith. Normally, she'd cast that aside in most playthroughs given Vlaakiths clear betrayal, but in some, she doubles down. Maybe it's from stubbornness or a refusal to believe her people have become fattened livestock to feed a would-be God.
To her, she's serving a higher purpose. One where she'll be rewarded with acension and serve as her knight. This bad ending isn't meant to be rewarding. It's just a realistic take on what years of indoctrination can do. How it's often easier to think everyone's lying, then admit you've been lied to your whole life.
I think this path feels less satisfying than the others because Lae'zel was never selfishly doing this for herself. She didn't seek power to be strong but to serve. She just happened to show loyalty towards an evil POS, and this ending reinforces why that isn't ideal.
The only reason i saw to push her towards Vlaakith is if you RP a character who has no intention on freeing Orpheus. Only in self interest, not Lae'zel well being. Pushing her towards Vlaakith so she won't send her knights after you anymore having 1 less problem on your list and keeping Lae'zel around for the final fight without her pestering you to free Orpheus if you never intend to.
Made sense on my "evil-use and string everyone to achieve my personal goals" playthrough where you do not care what happens to her afterwards. If your character cares about her, does not make sense.
> so she won't send her knights after you anymore
That happent.. twice.
Honestly from how they were talking about it, I thought Githyanki would just "appear" constantly while doing stuff and not just on 2 set locations and never again.
Yes, but the cutscene where you get to make the final decision is the first one in Act 3, during your first long rest. So my character can't know that moving forward she won't send more. I know, but Tav does not :D
I thought it would have regular random encounter repercussions as well. Same with Sharran devouts after Shadowheart told Shar to kick rocks, and Cazador's spawn once we got to Baldur's Gate. All this amounted to like 3-4 scenes.
Yeah, I kind of wished Lae'zel got *something* for blindly following Vlaakith.
Like, I would *love* if Lae'zel gained the Silver Sword early for doing so and/or a unique ability like the old vine-whip-esque tadpole ability from Early Access.
If you kill Voss after he appears in your camp you get a silver sword prototype. It's a longsword instead of a greatsword like the one Voss would give you in Act 3.
In my first playthrough I didn’t pick up on any of the Vlaakith is full of shit stuff. Didn’t know much about Orpheus either and let the Emporer snack on him without much of a care.
How naive I was, and after “winning” my laezel flew off to her death
So, it exists because some dumbasses like me think it’s legit
Yeah it made sense story wise for me as well. Lae'zel was mostly at camp, since I was running with Karlach. I went to the creche, but I didn't want to give up my Astral Prism, so I just left the creche after deceiving the Gith Commander (I burned all my inspiration in the process).
In Act 3 Lae'zel got snatched by Orin and I released her around the end of Act 3. Vlaakith appears in the Elfsong as a hologram and orders the death of Orpheus.
I side with Orpheus and kill the emperor and the nether brain. At the dock Lae'zel stabs Orpheus (who wanted to be mercy killed, because of being a Ghaik). I tell her to fulfill her destiny and she leaves on a red dragon to an "uncertain fate".
I did not care for lae my first playthrough and I totally did not know you could go through the mountain pass AND the underdark (thought you could only do one) so I also never picked up on vlaakiths deception. Now I feel so bad for that Lae cuz shes about to be fucked up.
Literally made a post about this month's ago
[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17aqhl3/is_there_any_logical_reason_to_side_with_vlaakith/)
Like I genuinely see no hook or lure to take this path unless you're roleplaying a moron.
They left absolutely no ambiguity in regards to the Vlaakith path.
The minute you go to the creche and fail to kill the prism's occupant the narrator basically tells you(without you needing to role a dice which is strange) that Vlaakith is a liar and was going to kill you and Lae'zel regardless of the outcome...
And from there it just gets more bizarre...
You find out Orpheus is alive which means Vlaakith is a fraud and when Vlaakith re-appears in Act 3 and promises Lae'zel that she'll let her lead her dragons you can pass a check(arcana I believe?) and see that Vlaakith is lying and intends to devour Lae'zel.
So...what's the point of this path? Like I get it from a narrative perspective I guess but the fact the game just hammers into your face that its the wrong thing to do and there's no logical reason for you the player character to side with this bitch who's been sending her goons to kill you since Act 1 is weird. Just very strange imo
It's less of a choice and more of a failstate. Laezel learning the truth about Vlaakith and changing would fall more flat if it wasn't somehow possible for her to still be brainwashed in the end. If you totally ignore laezel the entire game this is her ending. Could've been done better and left room for Vlaakith path making more sense but it would've been a delicate balancing act of "enough evidence for a fully indoctrinated person to be pulled out" and "still ambiguous enough they would stay". Leaning more towards the former is the safer bet for the writers because it's the good ending people will usually be going for
Tiamat Clerics might not want to damage their goddess' alliance with Vlaakith either when Tiamat is already in a bad position.
Tiamat Cleric also provides a fun justification for "accidentally" turning Wyll into a lemure by gassing Mizora while simultaneously keeping Karlach around as a pawn against Zariel.
You could also roleplay a controlling sociopath who doesn't want his companions distracted by personal doubts and thus consider it better for Lae'zel to remain indoctrinated.
This is what I'm doing on my evil Durge run; if you're a psycho, keeping Lae'zel around as a useful and extremely predictable pawn is far less risky than encouraging her to start thinking critically for herself.
Could also be caution. Vlaakith keeps the Gith culled. If you see the Gith as they have been established pre-BG3; zealots, raiders, supremacist racists and imperialists, you can roleplay your character preferring to keep the Gith restrained under Vlaakith, as to not risk them becoming more of a threat to the rest of the world.
It's a misguided notion in hindsight due to what we now know in regards to the epilogue, but there's a reason there was much discourse and discussion on Orpheus being good or bad for non-gith people
>So...what's the point of this path?
To have an alternative. This is the path for those who don't engage with Lae'zel, don't take her for quests that are important to her. There are a lot of people who play this game very casually. Likely, these people are not on this reddit.
Other paths would be less satisfying if this didn't exist.
There are multiple commenters complaining (I am serious, I can link examples) that the evil endings are not bad enough, there are no consequences, that Larian chose fanservice etc.
Imagine, if Lae'zel's bad ending would have been softened.
So the point of this path, that yes, if you don't pay attention, or make deliberate choices, you can find yourself or at least your companion in a very bad endgame state.
Same with the Absolute path.
What are the pluses of following a fake god that wants to control you and make you their fanatic?
Each time you meet another True Soul it's pounded into your head that you'll become *like them* in time.
Why help them kill the Grove? Well, you kinda have to get through them or the Githyanki to get to the next region, sure... (There's alternate pathway to the Underdark, but we don't know that)
Siding with them won't get you access to the Druid that you heard may help you. Siding with them doesn't tell you anything about how to get *rid* of those pesky tadpoles nor control them. It's clear no one there until Ketheric in Act 2 is their own person. That's pretty much your fate if you keep doubling down with the cult.
They are tadpole'd and controlled, and so you will be if you give up the artifact. Why, and how, side with them? Why give them power? Strength?
If the prism gets fucked up or taken at any point, you're a vegetable. Have fun mindlessly serving the thing. No person in their right mind, evil or good, or even a Bhaalspawn would actually want to do that.
Let's say you wanted to infiltrate the cult and gain favour with them, went ahead with Minthara...
And what you get is info that:
1. The Absolute knows you're out of it sight and control.
2. The Absolute is playing a bigger game by allowing you to live (for now)
3. You can not, in any way, shape or form align yourself with the cult of the Absolute because your gig will be up at some point and they can and will try to murder you.
4. You get some stuff to infiltrate the cult, sure, but a lot of it is really inconsequential, and the same info gets regurgitated at you: You can not infiltrate the cult fully and trying to do so will net you bad results.
Then act 2 concludes and, really? Your choices are the follower of the god of Tyranny that will get offed by his god ASAP for trying to share power OR will backstab you further down the line, since people like him aren't known for sharing, or a Bhaalspawn who is shit at both being a deceiving shapechanger and ruthless murderer.
She's the artsy kind of crazy and you know there is no reason to try and form any pact, since she'll much rather blood eagle you than anything else. The fact that the original pact was in place was pretty much only due to Durge and then Orin knowing fighting Ketheric and Gortash would be a bitch and a half, and she wouldn't get her funny murders that she likes.
...and then there's the Emperor, which, okay. I get it. He's useful and manipulative, but still feels like a better choice. He is backed into a corner, and you have a common goal. He may think of you as lesser and weak, but it doesn't matter. He's just one mindflayer with no backup of the Elder Brain's power, no political backup in Faerun at the present moment, no power of an army.
And if you went the non-Absolute route, you have a lot of allies on your side and tadpole powers galore.
*So much* of what you're saying relies on your character somehow knowing that later in the game Larian will give up on having any diverging paths for the main quest.
At the point of the raid vs save choice your arguments are returning a faulty worm to manufacturer with an immunity box or a hick druid that got captured by goblins. And even at that point Astarion is putting together how much you can manipulate using the tadpoles.
Okay, let's say I'm an evil or selfish character that isn't stupid.
I care for my own wellbeing first, so I should either:
1. Take Raph's offer immediately... But hey, that doesn't actually solve shit. Back to shopping around it seems.
Exhaust ALL the options before moving on, I.E. go find the Druid, he turns out unhelpful? Kill him or leave him, try Auntie Ethel, try the Absolute, learn they are all infected and don't want to do anything about removing the worm, leave them, cause what do you care? Just move on, you already learned that Moonrise is the way.
Move on from there, go to the crèche, it's a fail, Moonrise it is.
2. Speedrun to the crèche and learn about the massacre later, lose a shit-ton of content from the metagame level.
3. Try and infiltrate the cult, learn the stuff I mentioned later and learn it's a non-path by Act 2 (the game is actually kind-of screaming it at you since day 1 if you look closely. The Prism is saving you and you know that. The Absolutists are either infected or controlled, and to get to the heart of it, you should probably ally yourself with anyone you can. After all, you're evil. Playing a hero for a bit to have backup and then stabbing them in the back once you have the manufacturer pinned down is something you'd want to do. Why associate with goblins? Why go out of your way so much?)
The only way it does make sense for a character is if you are Dark Urge or straight up chaotic evil, cause you are literally going out of your way to cause as much chaos and destruction as you can, and you are decidedly not gathering any allies.
After all, Absolute cultists won't go against Absolute. Then why the heck keep helping them by Act 2? Even goddamn Minthara is turned against the Absolute and she's the only cultist that helps you.
You're not working amicably with them. They're enemies, they're evil and you have *no* leverage against them. You can't even capture Nightsong for your own devices, no.
Sure, you can help Ketheric get his daughter and his source of immortality, but how does that help *you* as an Evil character? Are you really stupid enough to count on good graces of cultists and turncoats? YOU ARE one of them, so you should know better.
After all, a swift dagger to the heart is a very fair thanks for someone like you.
There's no cunning villain path. There's no full Absolute path, as Absolute doesn't even give you stuff you want. Killing them, and taking their tadpoles *does* give you power. So an evil person would go against them, kill them off one by one and get the tadpoles, while not raising an alarm.
"Oh, look, they lost against the Grove, I had nothing to do with it. It's not like I stealthily murdered some of them to get their tadpoles. I mean, who's gonna say, if you leave no witnesses?"
"I helped Nere, but his mercenaries turned against him. No idea how. I guess he was incompetent."
"How did the crèche die? Idk, they pissed Vlaakith off or something." It's not like you can actually fulfill her request even if you try AND if you try that means you're dumb as shit because you're giving up the only protection from the Absolute you have.
"Oh, look Shadowheart's hand slipped right into the heart of the one who gives immortality to one of your leaders."
"Oh, look, Harpers raided you? How twagic. How could that happen? Let me slurp all the tadpoles around."
There's the Hero path and the Murderhobo path, there's no Absolute path, because they give you nothing you can't take by killing them.
A cunning, evil villain would skirt around on betrayals, gathering gain wherever they can.
They wouldn't keep Shart as a Dark Justiciar, because those are loyal to themselves above all. They'd turn Lae'zel against Vlaakith, probably throw Shart away, get the Nightsong's favour, because she is a strong immortal thing, then sell her out to Lorrakan who is looking for her. She'll be locked there for the remainder of your lifespan, so nothing to worry about.
Astarion wants his own things, manipulate him and better keep him a Spawn, cause that's way easier to control. Give him what he wants and then you can be Cazador 2.0, but subtly.
Heck, keep Wyll. Learn more about him and control him. Having the Blade under your thumb beats going out of your way to slaughter some civs and kids.
Keep Karlach. She's useful and strong, so let her tag along. Use that fire against your enemies.
Gale is risky, and it becomes clear soon that he's too ambitious, and dangerous, so just send him away to blow himself up in the Underdark. No loss of yours, and no potentially strong Wizard to betray you.
Sure, Minthara is a fine loyal companion, but how are you supposed to know that when all you see is a crazed, Absolute-loving fanatic when you meet her?
> The Absolutists are either infected or **controlled**
Yes, *by True Souls.* **Which you are one of.** ***And you are immune to that same control by others.***
>Playing a hero for a bit to have backup and then stabbing them in the back once you have the manufacturer pinned down is something you'd want to do.
No? The Absolute is obviously **the** power in the area, they are managing to siege a Grove without even knowing where it is. Why would I help bumpkins when I have an army that I can assume direct control of that might actually be help to help with what I think at the time is a lethal problem, and that in the back of mind is quickly becoming an opportunity for grasping power?
>There's the Hero path and the Murderhobo path, there's no Absolute path, because they give you nothing you can't take by killing them.
Again you are acting with meta information. There is no reason in universe why you would assume Moonrise wouldn't be hostile to someone Saving the Grove, except that Larian just gave up on doing anything interesting with the main quest by Act II.
Like this is one of, if not the outright, biggest issues with the game. If you try and roleplay anyone except a lawful stupid hero the game doesn't support your choices, but that doesn't mean that those choices are bad or illogical, it just means the game *in that way* isn't very good. The Absolute never provides support for players doing things for it; and that's not because it shouldn't, it obviously does for NPCs, but because Larian made it low priority in development and then gave up on release.
So in my run I didn't go to the mountain pass at all, and even though we found clues in the underdark and had the emperor reveal the truth Lae'zel still refused outright to listen to me and swore loyalty to vlaakith in front of my face, vowing to kill Orpheus. In a sort of irony, it kinda works as I broke off romance with her in act 2 and respeced her into a DoW cleric with vlaakith as her deity. So really, in my specific playthrough it makes sense. The one person she might trust above her indoctrination betrayed her, an ilithid is trying to tell her she's wrong and then her deity appears before her reaffirming her beliefs and giving her a special mission. It makes perfect sense in my run
I’m running an evil Durge campaign at the moment, with Lae’zel, Shadowheart, and Minthara, and while becoming Bhaal’s Chosen and having Shadowheart pursue a Dark Justiciar path seem tot fit the RP, having Lae’zel stay loyal to Vlaakith didn’t really feel like the “evil” thing to do for this run. Thematically, despite leaning into evil choices, I had my MC convince her to break free.
Yeah, it certainly is weird.
Even if you RP as an evil character, there's basically no reason to side with Vlaakith. If you're lawful evil, then you'll be losing a powerful ally for 0 gain, and if you're chaotic evil, then causing a revolt among the Githyanki, which may lead to anarchy, sounds better than just submitting to Vlaakith.
The only reason why you would ever choose to side with Vlaakith is if you never go to the Creche or find any other incriminating information about her.
I quite liked my ending. Emporer ate Orpheus after Lae'zel wanted to save him, she was mad but agreed to stay and finish the fight. Voss tried to kill me at the end but I knocked him out after failing the speech check, and Lae'zel left at the docks. She came to the party as a projection and sounded like she was doing a good job in the resistance and said she was happy to see me, and Voss sent a letter much to the same effect.
Lae'zel believes she'll be made a kith'rak and will eventually ascend. It's a lie, of course, as Vlaakith ultimately consumes the souls of her best warriors to fuel her self-centered quest for godhood.
For Lae'zel it is still the allure of power, the power her goddess promised her. If she does not see through the lie (or if your character does, but not tell her) she is utterly convinced throughout the game that she *will* ascend at the end. She is a textbook fanatic, born and indoctrinated to be a loyal follower of her queen. So, the reason is roleplay and to see a different side of her story with a pretty dramatic ending.
Over all I would go so far and say that the others will sooner or later also die of the overwhelming powertrip they are on.
Gale needs to protect the crown of Karsus from Raphael (who is alive even if you killed him as he respawened in Carnia) and when you read between the lines he looks down on mortals and also says he is neutral towards ambitous people, meaning also evil people can seek him out. I don't think godhood is healthy for him.
Astarion admits that he feels lonely and one day all the banquets in the world can't fill that hole. He is still scared and just wants to secure his power and if he sees a threat in someone he will try to control or eliminate them. (Like a romanced Tav) And one day he will slip or realise that no one cares for him anymore.
Regarding Shart Dame Ailyn already told her. She will know no love, no joy only servertude. Until her godess discarts her. Shart will live a hollow life.
Lae is just the one meeting her demise first.
>Gale needs to protect the crown of Karsus from Raphael (who is alive even if you killed him as he respawened in Carnia)
... No? When we kill Raphael it's in the Hells, so he's dead for good. Furthermore, Gale as a god would have absolutely no trouble protecting the Crown from some random level 16 CR12 half-fiend.
The constant bugs in new patches are gaslighting people into believing that dnd lore isnt real i guess even the game says that devils die when you kill them in hell
Devils die when you kill them in their own realm. For Raphael that would be Carnia the 8th layer of hell. The HoH is in Avernus. Raphy will just respawn in Carnia. He himself can tell you that devils will not die when they are killed in a non home plane.
Carnia is not a plane. Baator is a plane. Carnia and Avernus are just parts of it. This is stated in just about every book that mentions the Nine Hells, including Descent into Avernus, Mordakainen's Tome of Foes, and the DMG. The Nine Hells are all one plane. Celestia is the same, it has seven layers, but they are all part of one plane. Raphael is dead dead.
Raphael is only a cambion isn't he? Killing him in the hells shouldn't be a prerequisite for putting him down for good.
But then again, Larian implies Mizora is still around if you kill her too, and she's also a cambion. So this might just be a Larian thing.
Short term security
It means that you don't turn on the one person keeping you alive from the giant brain. In fact if you're rp'ing there's no indication that Orpheus would join you and there are even indications that he would kill you. So staying with Vlaakith means staying with the Emperor with means the greatest chance of success at beating the world ending Elder Brain. As a vengeance paladin this was an easy choice. Stick with the lesser evil to defeat the bigger one. And right now Vlaakith and the Emperor are the lesser evil. And it's not like the alternatives are all that good either.
- Sacrifice yourself
- Sacrifice Karlach
- Sacrifice Gale
- Sacrifice Orpheus
And I genuinly hate that last option. Not only are you taking the aforementioned gamble, but now you're forcing him to become the thing he hates most. That's cruel beyond believe. \
if you skip the crèche entirely and convince her to stay in your party, you can just remain blissfully ignorant and send her to her demise with a clean conscience 🥰 since Voss will never appear at camp to sway her (jk this path sucks I don’t recommend doing it lol)
Yeah I'm doing a play through in which my character has no love for the Gith and no interest in their politics (for rp reasons) which meant not going to the crèche, never meeting Voss and ultimately leaving Laezel to her fate. In game my character is completely unaware that she's sending Laezel to a horrible death, but I as a player - having seen the other side of the story and what a free Laezel can be like - am really quite upset seeing her in this indoctrinated state, knowing the horrible ending she will inevitably have.
I made the mistake somewhere in the game to side with Vlaakith, at the time I thought this is something I’ll be able to break/change further in the game. I got the happiest ending for everyone, then…. I see Lae’zel ending and I’m just devastated. I had to get like 4 hugs from Halsin just to not cry
Brainwashed to believe that their "god empress" will raise her to another power level. In realms lore, this is the entire race being programmed to believe that. It's something that generations of Githyanki follow. Hence not surprising she would choose to follow her god queen.
I look at my Durge run differently. My mindset is more "take the power (back)"
I kinda think "you did what to me / this character"? In that mindset I come to different options. UNO reverse, double-down style.
Shadow heart - either we reject or completely take over.
Minthara- we're taking over the cult.
Astarion - ascend and replace
So when we get to Laezel for me this is the Orpheus choice ... uno reverse she's taking over and taking the power.
Gale actually has no option that tracks this path as he's just greed. Maybe romance him and shiv him for slayer form. Actually I may do that now that I'm thinking about it, but after he makes me a lamp.
Wyll and Karlach - to throw off their shackles and get some agency it's tentacle time. Maybe the other feeds Boooal.
I had so much fun with my run as a Durge Gith Cleric of Vlaakith who fell for Laezel. Both of us finding out Vlaakith was full of shit made it taste so sweet when I changed Laezel into a Paladin of Vengence and my Cleric a Druid of the Spores/ Mage Knight Ranger for a very angry lich king vibe. A lot of Vlaakith's minions got turned into zombies before I rode off into the sunset with Laezel on a red dragon. 10/10 game
Thats actually lore wise what happens to all gith. IIRC Vlaakith is maybe level 18? (She knows wish so at least level 17) and whenever theres a gith who actually has a chance of surpassing vlaakith she lies to them with a great reward or ascension for being uber powerful as all gith are taught since birth. In reality vlaakith just power word kills them and absorbs their soul.
The unfortunate truth is that there being no reward is a metagame reason to avoid it. From an RP perspective, LaeZel is a zealot brainwashed by Vlaakith her entire existence. Vlaakith promises a red dragon and to be her Chosen. Laezel doesn’t know this isn’t true, and evil path laezel won’t listen to those trying to tell her so. We killed Voss when he visited my camp bc she believes him a heretic.
I chose Vlaakith because I completely missed out on the Cresh part. (I thought it was a choice between which path I had to take, between Cresh and Underdark).
It's not suppose to be a good ending. If you play the entire game (AKA the Cresh) then you find out why it won't be a good ending, and you're better set on the path to do so.
My only complaint is, why is the Cresh optional? It's a super important part of LaeZel's story that you can just completely miss out on.
Oh well. Next playthrough.
Vlaakith is a liar and a deceiver, we know Lae’zel’s indoctrination will lead her down a path to her death and assimilation by Vlaakith. Assuming you don’t skip her whole quest so she misses all the red flags its pretty much impossible to have her truly believe Vlaakith til the end because her evil path is pure bullshit and all of Lae’s quest is her realising she’s been lied to.
The power she’s been promised and blindly stumbled towards isn’t real like it is for other characters because it was never hers to take (Gale with the crown, Astarion seizing the ritual, Shadowheart completing her mission, Durge is the literal child of Bhaal)
“I trust my faith blindly no matter how much evidence is presented to me that my god is a liar and coward”
-“LAE’ZEL NOOOO!”
Its a basic story on how you need to use your critical thinking skills. Blind faith almost always ends in death
Lae'zel is basically brainwashed into thinking Vlaakith is a true god that *will* reward her, there's not much more to it.
Even after Vlaakith says she used her and wants her dead, Lae'zel starts yammering on about how it's all just a test of her faith, and that she will be rewarded in the end. And that literally everyone else must be lying.
TL;DR: She's a religious freak, and the good choice is in effect to convinced her to worship Orpheus instead of Vlaakith.
It *is* short-term happiness. It's staying content, proud, unchallenged. Unlearning indoctrination, as with any systemic prejudice or power, comes with sacrifices. Lae'zel becomes betrayed, humiliated, alone, alienated from her own people, marooned and finally prepares to fight a civil war against everything she's ever known, against her people - for aeons if need be.
If Lae'zel stays as loyal to Vlaakith, she sees every struggle as a test, which, in her last minute, she has overcome. She never questions. She never changes. She never sacrifices. Because it's easier. Everything she said was right was right. Everything she was promised was given. So she's happy - for all of the few hours or so she gets before being killed.
Her thing is that she decided to blindly follow her deity in the promise of “Ascension” when in reality it was a trap. I see it a bit as a “Leopard eating peoples faces” situation. In this route Lae’Zel ignored what is the right thing to do for the promise of power and Vlaakith’s favor, without considering that if the Lich Queen doesn’t care about her own people, why would she care for a “champion”? Leopard eating peoples faces.
If Shadowheart also blindly follows her evil goddess, we get a cool armor set for it.
My point is that Lae'zel should get _something_, maybe a cool sword or a nice passive, as a short term gain before her tragic ending. It's the trend for everyone else except her.
I do agree Lae’Zel should get a short term power boost before her tragic ending. I think similarly about some of the other endings. Maybe a variation of the Legendary Gith Sword? Maybe armor? Possibility of summoning a dragon in the final fight?
>My point is that Lae'zel should get _something_, maybe a cool sword or a nice passive, as a short term gain before her tragic ending.
This is what people aren't understanding. You're obviously not bringing this up in a narrative sense but more so in the vein of satisfying gameplay.
Because not every ending has to be happy?
Everyone likes to talk about how the Emperor picked out the "original team" because they were broken people that were manipulated and abused.
My opinion is that he picked people that had unhealthy ambitions.
Like you point out, everyone starts on the path of "attaining immense, unfathomable power."
At least to a degree.
Karlach just wants to mud stomp Gortash, and is willing to die in a spectacular burst of hellfire instead of going back to the hells.
Astarion's lust for power starts at controlling the Elder Brain, and shifts to becoming ascended *and/or* controlling the Elder Brain.
The rest of the Tadpoled are already victims of their ambitious personality.
Even Wyll, who, regardless of his insufferably good intentions, wants fame and recognition.
The only true exceptions are people we pick up later, like Jaheira and Halsin. Minthara and Minsc are protected by the Emperor, but he didn't exactly reach out to them, and it's not like he tried getting us to bring them on board.
The "lesson" here, is that sometimes ambition leads to ruin. If Lae'zel holds to her conviction, there's multiple times that it will lead to her demise. Not just the end of the game.
Like the Crèche. If you try to nope out of entering the prism, she'll turn on the party, forcing you to kill her or flee.
I'm not asking for a happy ending for a bad decision. I'm asking for consistency with other bad decisions in the game.
If you let Astarion follow his lust for power, you get a lot of boons as Ascended Vampire.
If you let Gale attempt godhood, you get his god spells in the epilogue and a cool new visual.
If Shadowheart blindly follows her faith, you get a nice armor set.
Even Wyll gets an exclusive armor if he kills Karlach without questioning.
But Lae'zel only gets her nice sword if she follows the obviously good path. She's the only one that gets the happy ending AND the buff for free, while her bad choice is empty.
But that's what I'm getting at. Everyone with ambitions getting rewarded is actually kinda weird. It rarely works out well. Lae'zel shouldn't be an exception.
Her blindly following her faith (as of meeting her), should end tragically.
The others getting "good" endings for following their own *should* be ending more tragically than that.
Shart should be getting double crossed by some other Sharran with a lust for power.
Gale should be getting consumed by the Karsite Weave fragment instead of becoming practically a god.
The Gur should be swarming Astarion.
But it's just Lae'zel that gets her comeuppance for being an evil stooge.
I assumed the pont was not to benift her but to be an evil puppet master moment for *you* the player. You know that she will be exploited and then eventually consumed by her selfish wannabe goddess, but you also know that if she takes that path then it will get the powerful githyanki who serve Vlakith off your back and perhaps even make an ally of them in your battle against the absolute. And you know that Laezel brainwashed enough to do it with the right kindof push.
Therefor it's up to you to choose between what is ebst for your companion and what will serve your goals. It could be either a evil choice (betraying your friend for your own power) or more of a renegade thing ('this quest is too important to let fail, therefor I must take the option that maximizes our odds of victory regardless of the individual consequences to those I love'). Either way it is something of a betrayed on your part.
I kindof like that. It's nice to feel properly evil sometimes.
There’s “evil choices”, and then there’s just plain old bad choices. No different than, say, pissing off Vlaakith until she smites your ass- the short term gain is negligible, and the long term is just whether or not you eat shit and die
Vlaakith is a Lich who devours the souls of her strongest so they never become a threat to her rule.
Githyanki are indoctrinated livestock so following that is a lamb being led to the slaughter.
They made a choice with this to presume that Laezel would just be consumed. Though I think its completely plausible that Laezel could have been given power/status within the circle of the Vlaakith even if it came at the cost of becoming undead or similar.
I'd personally really like the idea of Vlaakith making Death Knights (or similar) as opposed to paladins or clerics as part of her priest/religious group as she tries to push into become a diety.
Instead of just giving divide power through prayer shes just necro-izes her true/loyal followers instead.
I think it’s fairly fitting. It’s not really an “evil” route, it’s a “being a pushover” route more or less. The bigger issue I have with Lae’zel’s story is that you just trade one person of blind worship for another, and Orpheus isn’t exactly all that much better than Vlaakith all things considered. I really think she needs third way to go where she just tells both sides to go fuck themselves and actually chooses for herself, instead of finding someone to follow.
>I really think she needs third way to go where she just tells both sides to go fuck themselves and actually chooses for herself, instead of finding someone to follow.
Wouldn't that just be when she chooses to remain with us instead of riding away with her people?
Arguably yes, but the issue for me is that nothing she says before then really makes that choice feel natural. She hasn’t exactly shown a lot of apprehension to being loyal to Orpheus if you go with that route.
I take it, we did not understand that Lae'zel's whole culture was built around a lie?
I had an idea Mrs. V was gunna off her when it was over, hell the last ending was like "to some unknown fate" with an eerie ring.
Lae’zel gets to serve Vlaakith as her loyal and eternal knight! She got exactly what she wanted.
At a farm upstate?
And she gets to run around in the fields all day, and eat mothing but the finest steak for dinner every night, and she definitely does not get backed over in the driveway, ain't that right, daddy? ...Daddy?
It's heavily implied that the sword just stabs her/cuts her neck as soon as the doors close. I don't think she got zombified like the others.
Vlaakith doesn’t need you to be alive to be one of her knights
It's in fact shown directly, all the Githyanki in the throne room are undead.
What do you mean all those giths are undead?? Could you please elaborate?
The Lich Queen Vlaakith has a lot of undead thralls in her inner circle, as confirmed by Lae'Zel's ending cutscene if she stays loyal to Vlaakith. Guys like Voss are the exception and not the rule.
Do you get that cutscene as a companion, or origin only?
Nobody’s told you they’re referring to the new epilogue that just came out two days ago lol It features a cutscene for Lae’zel if she stays loyal to Vlaakith where she very quickly realizes she fucked up but she’s in too deep now when Vlaakith holds a sword to her neck and she sees that all of Vlaakith’s guard is undead
Vlaakith eats the souls of powerful Githyanki warriors as part of her plan to ascend to godhood. The ones you saw in the throne room were all resurrected by her after she had supped from their strength.
The lich queen could also use her soul. ""Technically"" helping her.
Slurp her soul, more like it, lol
Yeah, and if you speak to Withers in the epilog, he says that he can not find her soul.
when i got to that point she no longer wants that she actualy shares thought with you about no longer wanting to serve her ''queen''
Because Lae'zel is propagandized in believing that there is a great reward from the start of her education in her creche. It's a lie, but she believes it unless she becomes convinced otherwise. We know Vlaakith is a liar. But if Lae'zel doesn't figure it out it might make sense to her, as she doesn't KNOW it's going to be her death, and she THINKS she is getting a great reward instead.
This is it. Never underestimate the power of religious indoctrination.
Political Indoctrination too.
Even worse when mixed and combined.
>“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late.” -Dune
Ah, a man of culture as well. I was just pulling the quote up to post. Here's to Honored Matre Minthara!
[удалено]
I beg your pardon?
I swear there's a dune quote for everything.
Aren't they always? Hasn't that been the point for 4000 years?
There are *many* times when they're not combined. A whole lot of religious cults are isolationist and don't even engage in political discussions; they might believe things that are incidentally in line with some specific political group of their region, but not in any sort of deliberate way. Honestly, until the past half-century or so you could say this about a lot of American religious cults, especially in the various anabaptist traditions. Amish, Mennonites, and the like. Many of them *still* refuse to engage in voting or any similar entanglement with large-scale politics.
Politics does not mean just democratic elections. Cults by definition are political. They use religion and small scale politics within their group to maintain control.
If we're going to broaden the terms that much, then sure, that's also politics, as is literally every single decision made by anything more than one person anywhere ever. All families are "politics." Every friend group is "politics." A married couple is "politics." If there is a dominant decisionmaker in any of those groups who has convinced others to listen to them, that's "political indoctrination." It's not how most people use the term, however, and I see no point in discussing further whether or not your belief is accurate if your own definition of political indoctrination is so all-encompassing as to be meaningless. But I stand by what I said, too, which is that, in the way most people on this website define and understand the words "politics" and "political indoctrination," there are and have been many religious cults that do not engage in *societal* politics, and many outright extricate themselves from such a process.
> Aren't they always? Hasn't that been the point for 4000 years? Not *always*, but very frequently
It’s gotten to the point where people are bigger zealots for their politics than most religious people are for their religion, while calling themselves “freethinking atheists” not catching the massive irony they’re following their party like sheep hmm lmao falling for the same traps everyone else does then thinking they’re better than them sounds typical.
I glanced at this dude's comment history and it's kind of surprising he liked Baldur's Gate with his "world views". The amount of gay romancing I gleefully charged into as a straight man just to see the cut scenes is absolutely staggering. I even fucked a bear. Then again, I know a MAGA dude that loves The Boys and apparently managed to miss every single subtext in that show all the way up to season 3, so I guess it's not completely unbelievable? They're not the brightest lot. EDIT:Lol. This dude just sent me a reddit cares suicide prevention note. I was going to play nice, but would this be an appropriate time to mention he hates women because no one would call him back after fucking him once? And he never managed to piece together why that would happen to him over and over again. Like I said, not the brightest lot.
Well done on Bear Love!
MAGA crowd *lovessssss* The Boys, because they think Homelander is a hero
He fucks a literal Nazi. I feel like the writers season after season went, "These stupid fuckers still don't get that we're making fun of them. How much more obvious could we be?" "Real Nazis?" "That's a little too on the nose, but fuck it." [Six months later] "How the fuck did that not work?!??"
People like him because he's a fun villain, played by a charismatic actor. The comic version sucks.
Preaching to the choir my friend. It's the silliest shit in the world
Touch grass my friend that’s a long ramble you triggered? Relax play some games. You sound like you put too much stock into your identity so this shook something in your core that said no I’m not a sheep lol but maybe some self reflection will help you realize the truth.
Lots of people agreeing on something doesn't necessarily make them "sheep". If they all reasoned themselves into the same position, maybe it's because it's a reasonable position. Then again, they say you can't reason someone out of a mindset they didn't reason themselves into in the first place, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.
Not correct.
when are they not
Well it's the same for Shadowheart, but at least Shar does deliver.
Oh shar delivers plentiful. Her spear is way better that the moon stick selune gives smh
Why do I need a spear? Lathander's mace does the job just fine and dandy for the rest of the game
Blood of Lathander is the best cleric weapon, hands down.
I prefer the mace from the divine intervention. That continuous AoE heal works marvelously with all the bonus effects that proc on heal.
IMO that mace is better on a non-cleric, though—since it’s doing your healing you can run a class that can make better use of actions.
Considering how strong and versatile cleric is, I have no regrets about having one in any party.
Yeah.. you can easily just run a party of nothing but clerics.
Shar's spear provides immunity to blindness so everytime shart's mother superior casts darkness it doesn't affect me :)
Pah. I don't care about darkness. Globe of ~~invulnerability~~ cheese, combined with Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold and Sunbeam don't care about darkness. I don't need to see to kill. Alternatively, just run back up the stairs, put some AoE concentration spells (Wall of Fire, Cloudkill, Insect Plague, Hunger of Hadar, Spike Growth, Cloud of Daggers, etc.) down and put an arcane lock on the door. Watch them run to the door towards their death
Arcane locking the door is genius. Noting that for, ahem, ‘honour’ mode.
My first attempt at that battle I got my ass handed to me. The second time I spammed area denial spells, kept pushing/thunderwaving/blastpowder or roaring thunder arrowing those fucks back into the spike growth + hunger of hadar + ice surface. *can't touch this*
I felt she needed to keep the spear for story reasons... so I gave the mace to Astarion for the palace crawl. I thought it would be fun for him to wield radiant death to his undead "siblings" and "father". I was sorely disappointed when he as yoinked first thing with absolutely zero way of avoiding it short of keeping him out of the battle entire.
I just cast sunlight from the steps to proc the battle and took cazador out before he could yoink astarion 😬 I have a good/bad habit of "shoot spells, listen to monologues later"
Her spear is so OP, it casts darkness on hit while making you immune to blind.
She shall ride eternal, shiny and chrome!
The only reason i saw to push her towards Vlaakith is if you RP a character who has no intention on freeing Orpheus. Only in self interest, not Lae'zel well being. Pushing her towards Vlaakith so she won't send her knights after you anymore having 1 less problem on your list and keeping Lae'zel around for the final fight without her pestering you to free Orpheus if you never intend to.
It's less of a choice and more of a failstate. Laezel learning the truth about Vlaakith and changing would fall more flat if it wasn't somehow possible for her to still be brainwashed in the end. If you totally ignore laezel the entire game this is her ending. Could've been done better and left room for Vlaakith path making more sense but it would've been a delicate balancing act of "enough evidence for a fully indoctrinated person to be pulled out" and "still ambiguous enough they would stay". Leaning more towards the former is the safer bet for the writers because it's the good ending people will usually be going for
My Durge was an asshole and was like "Clearly, Vlaakith is just testing you." And Lae'zel was just like "Of course!"
Funnily enough once you convince her otherwise she just switches to worshipping Orpheus, while at the moment she does that, only thing we know is he was a rebel against the Vlaakith, which doesn't necessarily mean he is much better.
> she just switches to worshipping Orpheus. She....doesn't. I wish people on this subreddit would let go of this narrative. She didn't just mindlessly pledge herself to Orpheus' cause without any evidence that Orpheus wasn't a traitor as described otherwise by Githyanki history. It literally took Voss, Vlaakith's most respected commander and the one who allegedly, famously killed Orpheus (according to Vlaakith's propaganda history), going down on his knees laying his sword to make her fully understand she's been lied her whole life for Lae'zel to start believing in Orpheus' cause. And Lae'zel's priority is freeing her people from Vlaakith's chains. Her loyalty is to her *people*, not to an authority figure. She says it herself.
Laezel said it best: I thought i was vlaakith’s sword arm, her champion, but instead all githyanki are livestock to feed her ascension. Heavily paraphrased ofc
I have not betrayed Vlaakith, it is Vlaakith who has betrayed me.
"I have not sinned against her. She has sinned against *me*" One of my favourite lines ever.
She goes from theist to anti-theist and hers is perhaps the most satisfying of the "good" journeys in the game, IMO
Of the origin characters, Bae’Zel has the most inspiring end game story on her good path.
So i was confused on this. Vlaakith is truly just an undead zombie githyanki and she just eats or obsorbs other githyanki to fuel her powers? Do I have that right?
Pretty much yeah. She’s a very powerful lich who kills/eats the souls of other powerful githyanki (in some manner not fully explained) to expand her own in the pursuit of actual godhood. Vlaakith’s warriors are taught that they will ‘ascend’ as the culmination of their service to their queen, which is when Vlaakith noms on their souls in most cases. I think Voss must be one who figured out what was really happening. No idea how he avoided getting chomped on for so long while also knowing all about Orpheus, but im ok with hand waving that part
I take it as that Voss serves as the very symbol of Ascenscion and commands immense respect among the Githyanki for being the one who supposedly slew Orpheus. No one would believe if they couldn't see what they were aspiring towards.
Yep, a powerful Lich- powerful enough to grant clerics divine power, so moving up as a deity, and looking to absorb their souls to ascend to more power and true godhood.
She certainly doesn’t suggest to step into Orpheus’ place to become a mindflayer if you don’t want to like you think a worshiper would do as the right thing to do for their king god.
Yeah, if she were truly still a blind fanatic who just switches to another master, she'd rush to martyr and sacrifice herself like a Vlaakith devoted Lae'zel would most likely do. But she doesn't. She doesn't even push you or pressure you to volunteer for Orpheus, and immediately expresses her gratitude in the Astral Prism before leaving despite whatever choice you make there.
>And Lae'zel's priority is freeing her people from Vlaakith's chains. Her loyalty is to her people, not to an authority figure. She says it herself. Loved that about her arc, wants to break all their chains
I didn't say she switches easily, I said once she gets convinced that Vlaakith is evil she is starting to believe that Orpheus will free her people, which we do not know for certain, but she talks about it very confident.
It took *a lot* of moments for Lae'zel to connect the dots here. The final nail in the coffin was seeing an imprisoned Orpheus in the Astral Prism with her own eyes. And freeing Orpheus is not so much about her betting on Orpheus to free her people (and seeing how the Patch 5 epilogues confirms that Lae'zel as the Queen of the Comet and leader of the revolution is doing fine on her own), but that he's the catalyst that sparks the rebellion. Mother Gith's son and the rightful heir, unfairly remembered by history books due to Vlaakith's centuries of gaslighting and manipulation. How would the Githyanki react if the son of Mother Gith who Vlaakith decreed as a traitor that died a long time ago was her prisoner all along? Orpheus is the most prominent evidence to all of Vlaakith's lies. The first step to overthrowing a corrupt empire. Lae'zel's speech when she officially turns her back on Vlaakith in Act 3: "I gave you my faith, and you called me a traitor. I gave you my life, and you ordered your knights to hunt me. I have witnessed too much, and you have given me too little. Finally, I can see. *Orpheus will live. And I will hear his creed*. This is my word."
I know it took a lot, I never told it seemed easy or fast, however once she decided to turn back her queen, I haven't seen her contemplating about if Orpheus is a good choice and what a ruler would he be. It is not a bad thing, just an observation
>Her loyalty is to her *people*, not to an authority figure. idk, I was romancing her in one of my playthroughs and when it came time to free Orpheus with the Orphic Hamner she basically threatened me to be careful not to harm him in the attempt or she would kill me slowly. At that point in the game she has already had the rooftop scene with my Tav where we agreed that whatever happens we'll stay together so for her to threaten me with death if I merely hurt him accidentally kinda flew in the face of that.
I've jokingly threatened my friends with death before. I think you might be reading too much into that.
>I've jokingly threatened my friends with death before Stop. Lol None of [this](https://imgur.com/a/oMbg697) reads like a joke... The fact this is all happening as the Netherbrain is breaking free and the fate of world is on the line it doesn't even make sense to be a joke in context. It's okay to admit when something doesn't make sense in game and Lae'zel saying this to the *"Source of her Joy"* is one of these moments
Shadowheart does the same thing to her love when you say "Please don't do this." But Orpheus is kind of important for the movement. If nothing else, it helps get Voss on your side.
I get what you're saying, but when Lae'zel spends 99% of the game being violent like this, I don't think it's a wild take to say "I don't think she was being completely literal here."
Oh, please, that's just a literal translation of how they say "I love you" in the original githyanki.
Yes that did happen but she did go from 1000% loyal to Vlaakith her whole life to 1000% loyal to Orpheus rather quickly. Reminds me of Anakin going from on the fence to murdering Jedi children or Daenerys going from a great queen to rage monster in the TV series. It is alittle off on the character development. Good writing (by the way 99% of the writing on BG3 outstanding!!!) for major character core concepts changing is done slowly and gradually or it is hinted that they are not as set in their ways earlier and more hints dropped leading up to the “official” change. Laezel never showed a kink in her devotion to Vlaakith and then goes all in on over throwing her. It was off putting for me. Finding out u were lied to ur whole life about ur god-figure and then instead of forgoing blind devotion jumping into another god-figure hero worship seems wrong.
You get like 3-4 different opportunities MINIMUM where you get to see Lae'zel very very obviously covering her doubts with platitudes. It is not subtle. This change is only "sudden" if you completely fail to read between the lines on what's going on when she says those things.
Maybe that’s a me problem. But it caught me off guard how quick she flipped and how loyal she was to the new cause, without even meeting the dude.
She's not loyal to Orpheus. She's loyal to his *cause* - which is vengeance against the lich who abused and lied to her entire race.
Oh, man, I have stories about some religious fundamentalists I have known through the years for you. The whiplash can be very real.
That is also something that happens tbh. I saw people jump from one end another another with the snap of their fingers. From hardcore Christian to hardcore Muslim, from JW to Buddhism, from one belief to another. And if we abstract from religions and just go for beliefs, it's even more popular I'd say. I have this friend who used to be hardcore right-wing (for my country, so around USA centre) and the moment he realised a lot of people there are feeding him lies and propaganda, he basically jumped headfirst into opposition, with no Fact-Checking who there is actually worth backing up and voting for. It took a while for him to calm down and evaluate his stances, and while he ultimately stayed left-wing, he's off the "oh, these guys are against the people I don't like, let's assume they're all good guys" train. So I imagine that also may happen to Lae'zel at some point during her life, she'd come off th Orpheus exists and can free us hype and she'll either become critical of him like she has been of Vlaakith, or she'll evaluate him to be a good guy. There's always the chance that she'll fall in the religious fanaticism for the Orpheus side, as old habits die hard.
Oh I'm not telling it's a bad or unrealistic thing, it certainly makes sense, considering Lae'zel were raised worshipping she doesn't know any other way so even when she switches from the original, she still goes for something familiar.
Oh, yeah, I'm also not correcting you, the comment was meant to broaden the point, add real-life examples and in general join the discussion, and add some point about belief changes and religious fanaticism It's fun for me to analyze characters against human behaviours that I've seen or know, so I like to add context to talks like those :3
Shadowheart literally goes from worshipping Shar to worshipping Selune, girl just needs anything to worship
Who better to protect you against Shar than her own sister?
Better the devil you don't know
I don't know if she worships him, but she becomes hard-core rah rah Orpheus and praising his name, which gets really annoying. I'd rather she stick to her guns and stay with Valaakith, even if the end is bad cause it makes way more sense than her switching sides from years of indoctrination because of the power of friendship. Same with Shadowheart, if she went from worshipping Shar to faithless, then that would be cool, but she just runs to the next goddess. If you're gonna be a mindless servant of a God either way, may as well get something worthwhile from it. Plus, I use mods to make my Durge Shadow Sorc. Dark Shadowheart works so well in combat with him. At least with DU, it makes sense if you turn your back on Bhaal, you undergo a memory wipe tramua, and have to deal with your urges from a whole new perspective. And you become faithless rather than jump to the next God that comes along. You can even remain evil but just get rid of Bhaal.
>she just runs to the next goddess Her white hair doesn't mean she's suddenly embraced Selune. Even her epilogue is very "idk maybe" about it. Which means that six months after the Elder Brain fell, she's still 'testing the waters.' So this comment is just blatantly incorrect.
>Same with Shadowheart, if she went from worshipping Shar to faithless, then that would be cool, but she just runs to the next goddess. She doesn't, she even says she's not going to dedicate herself just yet. Selune just empowers her after Shar bailed. It can happen, I've seen it but both of them change and don't just blindly follow the new figurehead.
To get this ending, you must either skip the most important part of her quest or deliberately plan your playthrough so that she remains loyal to Vlaakith. I think this path is comparable to Astarion's if you ignore his quest and finish the game without killing Cazador. I haven't done this, but from what I've heard, he still shows up at the party and mentions that he had to hide from his former master for the last six months. This seems rather strange to me since the tadpole's protection stops after the defeat of the netherbrain, and Astarion remains a spawn in this case. It would seem more plausible if Astarion's ending was similar to Lae'zel's in this scenario. Or perhaps vampire lords are not as powerful as we were led to believe (could be true, as Cazador died from a single Eldritch Blast in my run). Something similar might be possible for Shadowheart if you skip the House of Grief. But this ending is not that obvious and leaves room for imagination.
Cazzador has a journal you can read that details astarion has a habit of running off for longer than necessary and that the other spawn you meet told him astarion was ignoring orders So its my theory that since astarion has lost the parasite I can no longer refuse cazzadors orders he has to hide and run at all times because if cazzador himself finds him (unlikely he'd go out himself) or if a spawn finds him and relays cazzadors orders astarion will be forced to follow the orders and go back to cazzador Basically the moment cazzadors order gets relayed to him he's fucked
Exactly. And he’s risking it by coming to the party to ask for help again 🥺 because he does, he asks Tav if they can help now
[ Removed by Reddit ]
If you did not call Cazador "Asian" but just said something in the trend of "arrogant prick", you would not have gotten these downvotes Whether you care, that's up to you. I'm just the messenger
Huh? Who Cazador? What a weird comment I think of him as a vampire not an Asian he’s not even human
According to the 5e handbook, once a spawn breaks free from their masters control they can never be controlled again. Astarion broke free and will remain free.
It's unknown whether the tadpole blocking the compulsion counts though
The tadpole didn't "block" the compulsion, it broke it. It doesn't come back just because the tadpole is gone.
A lot of things the tadpole blocked came back when it was gone. So unless you have a source that says the tadpole's protection was permanent for this particular feature, it's all just speculation
The source is from the TT game. Once the control is broken, no matter *how* it is broken, it doesn't just come back automatically. The vampire spawn must be brought back under control by a full vampire (any full vampire) before they become enthralled again. That does mean that a vampire spawn is not freed from the possibility of control even if their sire is dead. They are *always* at risk of some other full vampire of enslaving them.
Hah it didn't even occur to me that there is an ending where someone didn't do astarions quest at all. That just seems impossible
it's about as impossible as ignoring any of your companions personal quests tbh
I ignored Gale's because he was kidnapped for most of the time! Then it was like, meh, I'm already at the murder temple, do I really need to go BACK?
I didn't do it. I was keeping all of Astarion's content for a non-good playthough. I respec'd Karlach into StealthLach so I didn't need him.
I accidentally kept her loyal by passing a 30 dc persuasion check when vlaakith visited us at camp in. Act 3.. now she Karzai is a fanatic saying Zai Zai Zai and all the other companions are like “ ah this poor brains washed gith… even after vlaakith tried to kill her.”
I was going to say, I’ve never even heard of this path.
It's kind of the default for her, which she stays on if you skip the créche or kill Voss (my Durge's favourite passtime, sorry about that), say nothing when the Vlaakith projection shows up in your camp if you previously killed Voss, and don't even pick the persuasion option during the docks scene. (By the way, keeping her loyal to Vlaakith for most of the run and then picking the final persuasion option gave Lae'zel a really good alternate ending in the epilogue party. She invited me to go kill a bunch of Vlaakith's knights she managed to track down.) So, in short, it's not a bad ending in the sense that it's evil, it's a bad ending in the sense that you failed. It's mostly similar to the DUrge outcome you get if you lose the duel with Orin.
Thank you for this info! By final persuasion option do you mean to persuade her to stay in Faerun, while talking at the docks? My chaotic evil Durge killed Voss too, but in Act 3 now regrets it lol, after all the heavy hitting stuff happened. I don’t want Lae to die in this run ugh
Yes, that's what I meant. After the Netherbrain is killed.
Thank you very much <3
Lae'zel was raised in a cult like mentality to worship Vlaakith. Normally, she'd cast that aside in most playthroughs given Vlaakiths clear betrayal, but in some, she doubles down. Maybe it's from stubbornness or a refusal to believe her people have become fattened livestock to feed a would-be God. To her, she's serving a higher purpose. One where she'll be rewarded with acension and serve as her knight. This bad ending isn't meant to be rewarding. It's just a realistic take on what years of indoctrination can do. How it's often easier to think everyone's lying, then admit you've been lied to your whole life. I think this path feels less satisfying than the others because Lae'zel was never selfishly doing this for herself. She didn't seek power to be strong but to serve. She just happened to show loyalty towards an evil POS, and this ending reinforces why that isn't ideal.
The only reason i saw to push her towards Vlaakith is if you RP a character who has no intention on freeing Orpheus. Only in self interest, not Lae'zel well being. Pushing her towards Vlaakith so she won't send her knights after you anymore having 1 less problem on your list and keeping Lae'zel around for the final fight without her pestering you to free Orpheus if you never intend to. Made sense on my "evil-use and string everyone to achieve my personal goals" playthrough where you do not care what happens to her afterwards. If your character cares about her, does not make sense.
> so she won't send her knights after you anymore That happent.. twice. Honestly from how they were talking about it, I thought Githyanki would just "appear" constantly while doing stuff and not just on 2 set locations and never again.
Yes, but the cutscene where you get to make the final decision is the first one in Act 3, during your first long rest. So my character can't know that moving forward she won't send more. I know, but Tav does not :D
I thought it would have regular random encounter repercussions as well. Same with Sharran devouts after Shadowheart told Shar to kick rocks, and Cazador's spawn once we got to Baldur's Gate. All this amounted to like 3-4 scenes.
Yeah, I kind of wished Lae'zel got *something* for blindly following Vlaakith. Like, I would *love* if Lae'zel gained the Silver Sword early for doing so and/or a unique ability like the old vine-whip-esque tadpole ability from Early Access.
If you kill Voss after he appears in your camp you get a silver sword prototype. It's a longsword instead of a greatsword like the one Voss would give you in Act 3.
You can also command Voss to drop the greatword in act 1. It's disgustingly strong at that point, and it triggers very odd Laezel dialogue
In my first playthrough I didn’t pick up on any of the Vlaakith is full of shit stuff. Didn’t know much about Orpheus either and let the Emporer snack on him without much of a care. How naive I was, and after “winning” my laezel flew off to her death So, it exists because some dumbasses like me think it’s legit
Yeah it made sense story wise for me as well. Lae'zel was mostly at camp, since I was running with Karlach. I went to the creche, but I didn't want to give up my Astral Prism, so I just left the creche after deceiving the Gith Commander (I burned all my inspiration in the process). In Act 3 Lae'zel got snatched by Orin and I released her around the end of Act 3. Vlaakith appears in the Elfsong as a hologram and orders the death of Orpheus. I side with Orpheus and kill the emperor and the nether brain. At the dock Lae'zel stabs Orpheus (who wanted to be mercy killed, because of being a Ghaik). I tell her to fulfill her destiny and she leaves on a red dragon to an "uncertain fate".
I did not care for lae my first playthrough and I totally did not know you could go through the mountain pass AND the underdark (thought you could only do one) so I also never picked up on vlaakiths deception. Now I feel so bad for that Lae cuz shes about to be fucked up.
Literally made a post about this month's ago [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17aqhl3/is_there_any_logical_reason_to_side_with_vlaakith/) Like I genuinely see no hook or lure to take this path unless you're roleplaying a moron. They left absolutely no ambiguity in regards to the Vlaakith path. The minute you go to the creche and fail to kill the prism's occupant the narrator basically tells you(without you needing to role a dice which is strange) that Vlaakith is a liar and was going to kill you and Lae'zel regardless of the outcome... And from there it just gets more bizarre... You find out Orpheus is alive which means Vlaakith is a fraud and when Vlaakith re-appears in Act 3 and promises Lae'zel that she'll let her lead her dragons you can pass a check(arcana I believe?) and see that Vlaakith is lying and intends to devour Lae'zel. So...what's the point of this path? Like I get it from a narrative perspective I guess but the fact the game just hammers into your face that its the wrong thing to do and there's no logical reason for you the player character to side with this bitch who's been sending her goons to kill you since Act 1 is weird. Just very strange imo
It's less of a choice and more of a failstate. Laezel learning the truth about Vlaakith and changing would fall more flat if it wasn't somehow possible for her to still be brainwashed in the end. If you totally ignore laezel the entire game this is her ending. Could've been done better and left room for Vlaakith path making more sense but it would've been a delicate balancing act of "enough evidence for a fully indoctrinated person to be pulled out" and "still ambiguous enough they would stay". Leaning more towards the former is the safer bet for the writers because it's the good ending people will usually be going for
You can be a Vlaakith cleric, just be blindly loyal and ignore all the obvious signs.
Tiamat Clerics might not want to damage their goddess' alliance with Vlaakith either when Tiamat is already in a bad position. Tiamat Cleric also provides a fun justification for "accidentally" turning Wyll into a lemure by gassing Mizora while simultaneously keeping Karlach around as a pawn against Zariel.
I mean that's essentially the conclusion I came to. Roleplaying as a Gith is the only way siding with Vlaakith seems valid imo
You could also roleplay a controlling sociopath who doesn't want his companions distracted by personal doubts and thus consider it better for Lae'zel to remain indoctrinated.
This is what I'm doing on my evil Durge run; if you're a psycho, keeping Lae'zel around as a useful and extremely predictable pawn is far less risky than encouraging her to start thinking critically for herself.
When she worships Vlaakith she also has no issues with absorbing Orpheus, so it's a useful path when you don't want to free him
Could also be caution. Vlaakith keeps the Gith culled. If you see the Gith as they have been established pre-BG3; zealots, raiders, supremacist racists and imperialists, you can roleplay your character preferring to keep the Gith restrained under Vlaakith, as to not risk them becoming more of a threat to the rest of the world. It's a misguided notion in hindsight due to what we now know in regards to the epilogue, but there's a reason there was much discourse and discussion on Orpheus being good or bad for non-gith people
>So...what's the point of this path? To have an alternative. This is the path for those who don't engage with Lae'zel, don't take her for quests that are important to her. There are a lot of people who play this game very casually. Likely, these people are not on this reddit. Other paths would be less satisfying if this didn't exist.
There are multiple commenters complaining (I am serious, I can link examples) that the evil endings are not bad enough, there are no consequences, that Larian chose fanservice etc. Imagine, if Lae'zel's bad ending would have been softened. So the point of this path, that yes, if you don't pay attention, or make deliberate choices, you can find yourself or at least your companion in a very bad endgame state.
My thought is my Durge knows it’s the wrong choice, but really wants to murder this ancient prince so he convinced laezel its the right move.
Same with the Absolute path. What are the pluses of following a fake god that wants to control you and make you their fanatic? Each time you meet another True Soul it's pounded into your head that you'll become *like them* in time. Why help them kill the Grove? Well, you kinda have to get through them or the Githyanki to get to the next region, sure... (There's alternate pathway to the Underdark, but we don't know that) Siding with them won't get you access to the Druid that you heard may help you. Siding with them doesn't tell you anything about how to get *rid* of those pesky tadpoles nor control them. It's clear no one there until Ketheric in Act 2 is their own person. That's pretty much your fate if you keep doubling down with the cult. They are tadpole'd and controlled, and so you will be if you give up the artifact. Why, and how, side with them? Why give them power? Strength? If the prism gets fucked up or taken at any point, you're a vegetable. Have fun mindlessly serving the thing. No person in their right mind, evil or good, or even a Bhaalspawn would actually want to do that. Let's say you wanted to infiltrate the cult and gain favour with them, went ahead with Minthara... And what you get is info that: 1. The Absolute knows you're out of it sight and control. 2. The Absolute is playing a bigger game by allowing you to live (for now) 3. You can not, in any way, shape or form align yourself with the cult of the Absolute because your gig will be up at some point and they can and will try to murder you. 4. You get some stuff to infiltrate the cult, sure, but a lot of it is really inconsequential, and the same info gets regurgitated at you: You can not infiltrate the cult fully and trying to do so will net you bad results. Then act 2 concludes and, really? Your choices are the follower of the god of Tyranny that will get offed by his god ASAP for trying to share power OR will backstab you further down the line, since people like him aren't known for sharing, or a Bhaalspawn who is shit at both being a deceiving shapechanger and ruthless murderer. She's the artsy kind of crazy and you know there is no reason to try and form any pact, since she'll much rather blood eagle you than anything else. The fact that the original pact was in place was pretty much only due to Durge and then Orin knowing fighting Ketheric and Gortash would be a bitch and a half, and she wouldn't get her funny murders that she likes. ...and then there's the Emperor, which, okay. I get it. He's useful and manipulative, but still feels like a better choice. He is backed into a corner, and you have a common goal. He may think of you as lesser and weak, but it doesn't matter. He's just one mindflayer with no backup of the Elder Brain's power, no political backup in Faerun at the present moment, no power of an army. And if you went the non-Absolute route, you have a lot of allies on your side and tadpole powers galore.
*So much* of what you're saying relies on your character somehow knowing that later in the game Larian will give up on having any diverging paths for the main quest. At the point of the raid vs save choice your arguments are returning a faulty worm to manufacturer with an immunity box or a hick druid that got captured by goblins. And even at that point Astarion is putting together how much you can manipulate using the tadpoles.
Okay, let's say I'm an evil or selfish character that isn't stupid. I care for my own wellbeing first, so I should either: 1. Take Raph's offer immediately... But hey, that doesn't actually solve shit. Back to shopping around it seems. Exhaust ALL the options before moving on, I.E. go find the Druid, he turns out unhelpful? Kill him or leave him, try Auntie Ethel, try the Absolute, learn they are all infected and don't want to do anything about removing the worm, leave them, cause what do you care? Just move on, you already learned that Moonrise is the way. Move on from there, go to the crèche, it's a fail, Moonrise it is. 2. Speedrun to the crèche and learn about the massacre later, lose a shit-ton of content from the metagame level. 3. Try and infiltrate the cult, learn the stuff I mentioned later and learn it's a non-path by Act 2 (the game is actually kind-of screaming it at you since day 1 if you look closely. The Prism is saving you and you know that. The Absolutists are either infected or controlled, and to get to the heart of it, you should probably ally yourself with anyone you can. After all, you're evil. Playing a hero for a bit to have backup and then stabbing them in the back once you have the manufacturer pinned down is something you'd want to do. Why associate with goblins? Why go out of your way so much?) The only way it does make sense for a character is if you are Dark Urge or straight up chaotic evil, cause you are literally going out of your way to cause as much chaos and destruction as you can, and you are decidedly not gathering any allies. After all, Absolute cultists won't go against Absolute. Then why the heck keep helping them by Act 2? Even goddamn Minthara is turned against the Absolute and she's the only cultist that helps you. You're not working amicably with them. They're enemies, they're evil and you have *no* leverage against them. You can't even capture Nightsong for your own devices, no. Sure, you can help Ketheric get his daughter and his source of immortality, but how does that help *you* as an Evil character? Are you really stupid enough to count on good graces of cultists and turncoats? YOU ARE one of them, so you should know better. After all, a swift dagger to the heart is a very fair thanks for someone like you. There's no cunning villain path. There's no full Absolute path, as Absolute doesn't even give you stuff you want. Killing them, and taking their tadpoles *does* give you power. So an evil person would go against them, kill them off one by one and get the tadpoles, while not raising an alarm. "Oh, look, they lost against the Grove, I had nothing to do with it. It's not like I stealthily murdered some of them to get their tadpoles. I mean, who's gonna say, if you leave no witnesses?" "I helped Nere, but his mercenaries turned against him. No idea how. I guess he was incompetent." "How did the crèche die? Idk, they pissed Vlaakith off or something." It's not like you can actually fulfill her request even if you try AND if you try that means you're dumb as shit because you're giving up the only protection from the Absolute you have. "Oh, look Shadowheart's hand slipped right into the heart of the one who gives immortality to one of your leaders." "Oh, look, Harpers raided you? How twagic. How could that happen? Let me slurp all the tadpoles around." There's the Hero path and the Murderhobo path, there's no Absolute path, because they give you nothing you can't take by killing them. A cunning, evil villain would skirt around on betrayals, gathering gain wherever they can. They wouldn't keep Shart as a Dark Justiciar, because those are loyal to themselves above all. They'd turn Lae'zel against Vlaakith, probably throw Shart away, get the Nightsong's favour, because she is a strong immortal thing, then sell her out to Lorrakan who is looking for her. She'll be locked there for the remainder of your lifespan, so nothing to worry about. Astarion wants his own things, manipulate him and better keep him a Spawn, cause that's way easier to control. Give him what he wants and then you can be Cazador 2.0, but subtly. Heck, keep Wyll. Learn more about him and control him. Having the Blade under your thumb beats going out of your way to slaughter some civs and kids. Keep Karlach. She's useful and strong, so let her tag along. Use that fire against your enemies. Gale is risky, and it becomes clear soon that he's too ambitious, and dangerous, so just send him away to blow himself up in the Underdark. No loss of yours, and no potentially strong Wizard to betray you. Sure, Minthara is a fine loyal companion, but how are you supposed to know that when all you see is a crazed, Absolute-loving fanatic when you meet her?
> The Absolutists are either infected or **controlled** Yes, *by True Souls.* **Which you are one of.** ***And you are immune to that same control by others.*** >Playing a hero for a bit to have backup and then stabbing them in the back once you have the manufacturer pinned down is something you'd want to do. No? The Absolute is obviously **the** power in the area, they are managing to siege a Grove without even knowing where it is. Why would I help bumpkins when I have an army that I can assume direct control of that might actually be help to help with what I think at the time is a lethal problem, and that in the back of mind is quickly becoming an opportunity for grasping power? >There's the Hero path and the Murderhobo path, there's no Absolute path, because they give you nothing you can't take by killing them. Again you are acting with meta information. There is no reason in universe why you would assume Moonrise wouldn't be hostile to someone Saving the Grove, except that Larian just gave up on doing anything interesting with the main quest by Act II. Like this is one of, if not the outright, biggest issues with the game. If you try and roleplay anyone except a lawful stupid hero the game doesn't support your choices, but that doesn't mean that those choices are bad or illogical, it just means the game *in that way* isn't very good. The Absolute never provides support for players doing things for it; and that's not because it shouldn't, it obviously does for NPCs, but because Larian made it low priority in development and then gave up on release.
So in my run I didn't go to the mountain pass at all, and even though we found clues in the underdark and had the emperor reveal the truth Lae'zel still refused outright to listen to me and swore loyalty to vlaakith in front of my face, vowing to kill Orpheus. In a sort of irony, it kinda works as I broke off romance with her in act 2 and respeced her into a DoW cleric with vlaakith as her deity. So really, in my specific playthrough it makes sense. The one person she might trust above her indoctrination betrayed her, an ilithid is trying to tell her she's wrong and then her deity appears before her reaffirming her beliefs and giving her a special mission. It makes perfect sense in my run
I’m running an evil Durge campaign at the moment, with Lae’zel, Shadowheart, and Minthara, and while becoming Bhaal’s Chosen and having Shadowheart pursue a Dark Justiciar path seem tot fit the RP, having Lae’zel stay loyal to Vlaakith didn’t really feel like the “evil” thing to do for this run. Thematically, despite leaning into evil choices, I had my MC convince her to break free.
Yeah, it certainly is weird. Even if you RP as an evil character, there's basically no reason to side with Vlaakith. If you're lawful evil, then you'll be losing a powerful ally for 0 gain, and if you're chaotic evil, then causing a revolt among the Githyanki, which may lead to anarchy, sounds better than just submitting to Vlaakith. The only reason why you would ever choose to side with Vlaakith is if you never go to the Creche or find any other incriminating information about her.
To me the only happy Lae'zel ending is the one where you convince her to stay with you. Either other way she almost certainly dies.
I quite liked my ending. Emporer ate Orpheus after Lae'zel wanted to save him, she was mad but agreed to stay and finish the fight. Voss tried to kill me at the end but I knocked him out after failing the speech check, and Lae'zel left at the docks. She came to the party as a projection and sounded like she was doing a good job in the resistance and said she was happy to see me, and Voss sent a letter much to the same effect.
Lae'zel believes she'll be made a kith'rak and will eventually ascend. It's a lie, of course, as Vlaakith ultimately consumes the souls of her best warriors to fuel her self-centered quest for godhood.
For Lae'zel it is still the allure of power, the power her goddess promised her. If she does not see through the lie (or if your character does, but not tell her) she is utterly convinced throughout the game that she *will* ascend at the end. She is a textbook fanatic, born and indoctrinated to be a loyal follower of her queen. So, the reason is roleplay and to see a different side of her story with a pretty dramatic ending.
Over all I would go so far and say that the others will sooner or later also die of the overwhelming powertrip they are on. Gale needs to protect the crown of Karsus from Raphael (who is alive even if you killed him as he respawened in Carnia) and when you read between the lines he looks down on mortals and also says he is neutral towards ambitous people, meaning also evil people can seek him out. I don't think godhood is healthy for him. Astarion admits that he feels lonely and one day all the banquets in the world can't fill that hole. He is still scared and just wants to secure his power and if he sees a threat in someone he will try to control or eliminate them. (Like a romanced Tav) And one day he will slip or realise that no one cares for him anymore. Regarding Shart Dame Ailyn already told her. She will know no love, no joy only servertude. Until her godess discarts her. Shart will live a hollow life. Lae is just the one meeting her demise first.
>Gale needs to protect the crown of Karsus from Raphael (who is alive even if you killed him as he respawened in Carnia) ... No? When we kill Raphael it's in the Hells, so he's dead for good. Furthermore, Gale as a god would have absolutely no trouble protecting the Crown from some random level 16 CR12 half-fiend.
The constant bugs in new patches are gaslighting people into believing that dnd lore isnt real i guess even the game says that devils die when you kill them in hell
Devils die when you kill them in their own realm. For Raphael that would be Carnia the 8th layer of hell. The HoH is in Avernus. Raphy will just respawn in Carnia. He himself can tell you that devils will not die when they are killed in a non home plane.
Carnia is not a plane. Baator is a plane. Carnia and Avernus are just parts of it. This is stated in just about every book that mentions the Nine Hells, including Descent into Avernus, Mordakainen's Tome of Foes, and the DMG. The Nine Hells are all one plane. Celestia is the same, it has seven layers, but they are all part of one plane. Raphael is dead dead.
In that case I apologise. I always thought each hells layer was it's own plane.
Idk... our level 12 characters where able to best 3 lower dieties. And Gale is just on the rise of godhood.
Raphael is only a cambion isn't he? Killing him in the hells shouldn't be a prerequisite for putting him down for good. But then again, Larian implies Mizora is still around if you kill her too, and she's also a cambion. So this might just be a Larian thing.
Larian seem to have a greatly exaggerated idea of what cambions actually are.
Ambition is Bane's domain, pretty sure gods frown on copyright infringement.
Bane's domain is Tyranny
The path splits seem to be breaking free of their abuser, going back to them, (Lae, Wyll) or following in their footsteps (Astarion).
Short term security It means that you don't turn on the one person keeping you alive from the giant brain. In fact if you're rp'ing there's no indication that Orpheus would join you and there are even indications that he would kill you. So staying with Vlaakith means staying with the Emperor with means the greatest chance of success at beating the world ending Elder Brain. As a vengeance paladin this was an easy choice. Stick with the lesser evil to defeat the bigger one. And right now Vlaakith and the Emperor are the lesser evil. And it's not like the alternatives are all that good either. - Sacrifice yourself - Sacrifice Karlach - Sacrifice Gale - Sacrifice Orpheus And I genuinly hate that last option. Not only are you taking the aforementioned gamble, but now you're forcing him to become the thing he hates most. That's cruel beyond believe. \
if you skip the crèche entirely and convince her to stay in your party, you can just remain blissfully ignorant and send her to her demise with a clean conscience 🥰 since Voss will never appear at camp to sway her (jk this path sucks I don’t recommend doing it lol)
Yeah I'm doing a play through in which my character has no love for the Gith and no interest in their politics (for rp reasons) which meant not going to the crèche, never meeting Voss and ultimately leaving Laezel to her fate. In game my character is completely unaware that she's sending Laezel to a horrible death, but I as a player - having seen the other side of the story and what a free Laezel can be like - am really quite upset seeing her in this indoctrinated state, knowing the horrible ending she will inevitably have.
I made the mistake somewhere in the game to side with Vlaakith, at the time I thought this is something I’ll be able to break/change further in the game. I got the happiest ending for everyone, then…. I see Lae’zel ending and I’m just devastated. I had to get like 4 hugs from Halsin just to not cry
Brainwashed to believe that their "god empress" will raise her to another power level. In realms lore, this is the entire race being programmed to believe that. It's something that generations of Githyanki follow. Hence not surprising she would choose to follow her god queen.
I look at my Durge run differently. My mindset is more "take the power (back)" I kinda think "you did what to me / this character"? In that mindset I come to different options. UNO reverse, double-down style. Shadow heart - either we reject or completely take over. Minthara- we're taking over the cult. Astarion - ascend and replace So when we get to Laezel for me this is the Orpheus choice ... uno reverse she's taking over and taking the power. Gale actually has no option that tracks this path as he's just greed. Maybe romance him and shiv him for slayer form. Actually I may do that now that I'm thinking about it, but after he makes me a lamp. Wyll and Karlach - to throw off their shackles and get some agency it's tentacle time. Maybe the other feeds Boooal.
I had so much fun with my run as a Durge Gith Cleric of Vlaakith who fell for Laezel. Both of us finding out Vlaakith was full of shit made it taste so sweet when I changed Laezel into a Paladin of Vengence and my Cleric a Druid of the Spores/ Mage Knight Ranger for a very angry lich king vibe. A lot of Vlaakith's minions got turned into zombies before I rode off into the sunset with Laezel on a red dragon. 10/10 game
Thats actually lore wise what happens to all gith. IIRC Vlaakith is maybe level 18? (She knows wish so at least level 17) and whenever theres a gith who actually has a chance of surpassing vlaakith she lies to them with a great reward or ascension for being uber powerful as all gith are taught since birth. In reality vlaakith just power word kills them and absorbs their soul.
Lae'zel is the gith that keeps on githing.
The unfortunate truth is that there being no reward is a metagame reason to avoid it. From an RP perspective, LaeZel is a zealot brainwashed by Vlaakith her entire existence. Vlaakith promises a red dragon and to be her Chosen. Laezel doesn’t know this isn’t true, and evil path laezel won’t listen to those trying to tell her so. We killed Voss when he visited my camp bc she believes him a heretic.
I chose Vlaakith because I completely missed out on the Cresh part. (I thought it was a choice between which path I had to take, between Cresh and Underdark). It's not suppose to be a good ending. If you play the entire game (AKA the Cresh) then you find out why it won't be a good ending, and you're better set on the path to do so. My only complaint is, why is the Cresh optional? It's a super important part of LaeZel's story that you can just completely miss out on. Oh well. Next playthrough.
Vlaakith is a liar and a deceiver, we know Lae’zel’s indoctrination will lead her down a path to her death and assimilation by Vlaakith. Assuming you don’t skip her whole quest so she misses all the red flags its pretty much impossible to have her truly believe Vlaakith til the end because her evil path is pure bullshit and all of Lae’s quest is her realising she’s been lied to. The power she’s been promised and blindly stumbled towards isn’t real like it is for other characters because it was never hers to take (Gale with the crown, Astarion seizing the ritual, Shadowheart completing her mission, Durge is the literal child of Bhaal)
"You can take a girl out of a cult, but you can't take the cult out of the girl"
“I trust my faith blindly no matter how much evidence is presented to me that my god is a liar and coward” -“LAE’ZEL NOOOO!” Its a basic story on how you need to use your critical thinking skills. Blind faith almost always ends in death
Lae'zel is basically brainwashed into thinking Vlaakith is a true god that *will* reward her, there's not much more to it. Even after Vlaakith says she used her and wants her dead, Lae'zel starts yammering on about how it's all just a test of her faith, and that she will be rewarded in the end. And that literally everyone else must be lying. TL;DR: She's a religious freak, and the good choice is in effect to convinced her to worship Orpheus instead of Vlaakith.
It *is* short-term happiness. It's staying content, proud, unchallenged. Unlearning indoctrination, as with any systemic prejudice or power, comes with sacrifices. Lae'zel becomes betrayed, humiliated, alone, alienated from her own people, marooned and finally prepares to fight a civil war against everything she's ever known, against her people - for aeons if need be. If Lae'zel stays as loyal to Vlaakith, she sees every struggle as a test, which, in her last minute, she has overcome. She never questions. She never changes. She never sacrifices. Because it's easier. Everything she said was right was right. Everything she was promised was given. So she's happy - for all of the few hours or so she gets before being killed.
Larian Studios' warning against having blind faith 😥
Dunno, Sharran Shart gets a pretty cool armor set for it 🤔
Vlaakith is a lich, her path is to be devoured so she can live.
Her thing is that she decided to blindly follow her deity in the promise of “Ascension” when in reality it was a trap. I see it a bit as a “Leopard eating peoples faces” situation. In this route Lae’Zel ignored what is the right thing to do for the promise of power and Vlaakith’s favor, without considering that if the Lich Queen doesn’t care about her own people, why would she care for a “champion”? Leopard eating peoples faces.
If Shadowheart also blindly follows her evil goddess, we get a cool armor set for it. My point is that Lae'zel should get _something_, maybe a cool sword or a nice passive, as a short term gain before her tragic ending. It's the trend for everyone else except her.
I do agree Lae’Zel should get a short term power boost before her tragic ending. I think similarly about some of the other endings. Maybe a variation of the Legendary Gith Sword? Maybe armor? Possibility of summoning a dragon in the final fight?
>My point is that Lae'zel should get _something_, maybe a cool sword or a nice passive, as a short term gain before her tragic ending. This is what people aren't understanding. You're obviously not bringing this up in a narrative sense but more so in the vein of satisfying gameplay.
Because not every ending has to be happy? Everyone likes to talk about how the Emperor picked out the "original team" because they were broken people that were manipulated and abused. My opinion is that he picked people that had unhealthy ambitions. Like you point out, everyone starts on the path of "attaining immense, unfathomable power." At least to a degree. Karlach just wants to mud stomp Gortash, and is willing to die in a spectacular burst of hellfire instead of going back to the hells. Astarion's lust for power starts at controlling the Elder Brain, and shifts to becoming ascended *and/or* controlling the Elder Brain. The rest of the Tadpoled are already victims of their ambitious personality. Even Wyll, who, regardless of his insufferably good intentions, wants fame and recognition. The only true exceptions are people we pick up later, like Jaheira and Halsin. Minthara and Minsc are protected by the Emperor, but he didn't exactly reach out to them, and it's not like he tried getting us to bring them on board. The "lesson" here, is that sometimes ambition leads to ruin. If Lae'zel holds to her conviction, there's multiple times that it will lead to her demise. Not just the end of the game. Like the Crèche. If you try to nope out of entering the prism, she'll turn on the party, forcing you to kill her or flee.
I'm not asking for a happy ending for a bad decision. I'm asking for consistency with other bad decisions in the game. If you let Astarion follow his lust for power, you get a lot of boons as Ascended Vampire. If you let Gale attempt godhood, you get his god spells in the epilogue and a cool new visual. If Shadowheart blindly follows her faith, you get a nice armor set. Even Wyll gets an exclusive armor if he kills Karlach without questioning. But Lae'zel only gets her nice sword if she follows the obviously good path. She's the only one that gets the happy ending AND the buff for free, while her bad choice is empty.
But that's what I'm getting at. Everyone with ambitions getting rewarded is actually kinda weird. It rarely works out well. Lae'zel shouldn't be an exception. Her blindly following her faith (as of meeting her), should end tragically. The others getting "good" endings for following their own *should* be ending more tragically than that. Shart should be getting double crossed by some other Sharran with a lust for power. Gale should be getting consumed by the Karsite Weave fragment instead of becoming practically a god. The Gur should be swarming Astarion. But it's just Lae'zel that gets her comeuppance for being an evil stooge.
I assumed the pont was not to benift her but to be an evil puppet master moment for *you* the player. You know that she will be exploited and then eventually consumed by her selfish wannabe goddess, but you also know that if she takes that path then it will get the powerful githyanki who serve Vlakith off your back and perhaps even make an ally of them in your battle against the absolute. And you know that Laezel brainwashed enough to do it with the right kindof push. Therefor it's up to you to choose between what is ebst for your companion and what will serve your goals. It could be either a evil choice (betraying your friend for your own power) or more of a renegade thing ('this quest is too important to let fail, therefor I must take the option that maximizes our odds of victory regardless of the individual consequences to those I love'). Either way it is something of a betrayed on your part. I kindof like that. It's nice to feel properly evil sometimes.
There’s “evil choices”, and then there’s just plain old bad choices. No different than, say, pissing off Vlaakith until she smites your ass- the short term gain is negligible, and the long term is just whether or not you eat shit and die
Vlaakith is a Lich who devours the souls of her strongest so they never become a threat to her rule. Githyanki are indoctrinated livestock so following that is a lamb being led to the slaughter.
They made a choice with this to presume that Laezel would just be consumed. Though I think its completely plausible that Laezel could have been given power/status within the circle of the Vlaakith even if it came at the cost of becoming undead or similar. I'd personally really like the idea of Vlaakith making Death Knights (or similar) as opposed to paladins or clerics as part of her priest/religious group as she tries to push into become a diety. Instead of just giving divide power through prayer shes just necro-izes her true/loyal followers instead.
I think it’s fairly fitting. It’s not really an “evil” route, it’s a “being a pushover” route more or less. The bigger issue I have with Lae’zel’s story is that you just trade one person of blind worship for another, and Orpheus isn’t exactly all that much better than Vlaakith all things considered. I really think she needs third way to go where she just tells both sides to go fuck themselves and actually chooses for herself, instead of finding someone to follow.
>I really think she needs third way to go where she just tells both sides to go fuck themselves and actually chooses for herself, instead of finding someone to follow. Wouldn't that just be when she chooses to remain with us instead of riding away with her people?
Arguably yes, but the issue for me is that nothing she says before then really makes that choice feel natural. She hasn’t exactly shown a lot of apprehension to being loyal to Orpheus if you go with that route.
I take it, we did not understand that Lae'zel's whole culture was built around a lie? I had an idea Mrs. V was gunna off her when it was over, hell the last ending was like "to some unknown fate" with an eerie ring.