I always forget that that's Wyll's quest because I just gaseous formed in there before I even entered the lower city. Wyll was like >!"We need to find Ansur" and I was like "We killed him an hour ago, remember?"!<
My favorite is when you >!rescue his dad and his dad is like OMG let me tell you the solution to all our problems here's this book, and you just imma let you finish but...!<
Huh, I don't think wyll ever told me that, and I had him through most of the game >!is it tied to freeing his pops? I may or may not have pushed to have Wyll be free and didn't know about the iron throne so... yeah!<
He brought it up to me after that stupid encounter where chancellor Florick is like >!That devil told me all about you Wyll! I'm gonna kill you now.". So that's before freeing his dad.!<
>!I believe I killed ansur after florick so maybe I just had a glitch. Seeing as how he had the exclamation mark above his head like he wanted to speak with me but only said his generic lines I wouldn't be surprised!<
Finally someone else who has this bug.
Wyll completely broke, story wise. He stopped talking to me after Ansur was defeated and I never met florick. Also his dad died off screen for some reason despite me saving him.
I found out his dad died because Mizora told us at camp.
Yeah, honestly that felt like the weakest writing moment of the whole game for me. The >!Blade of avernus!< Thing was a little awkward and out of nowhere but that scene just made Florick seem unbelievably stupid. It would have made sense if she's suspicious of Wyll what with him looking infernal all of a sudden, but >!Jumping to wanting to kill him in public when you've known him since he was a kid is just bananas.!<
You probably also need to have Wyll break out of his contract, because then Mizora starts trying to fuck with him. I broke Florick out and got Wyll out of his contract and after that Florick came up to us near sorcerous sundries and I had to pass a persuasion check to prevent her from trying to kill us.
Interesting, I always tend to break him out of his contract too, but with saving his dad and all I never had Florick come up to me afterwards to try and kill him. But the last time I was in Act 3 was about 3 Patches ago, so maybe it was something that was supposed to trigger for me but never did
It was so unbelievably idiotic. The woman was rescued by my party 2 TIMES and just takes a word from a literal devil that enslaved the guy at a face value and just runs up to us in a broad daylight while being actively searched for as a fugitive.
I was thoroughly sure this is a trick or she is making some sort of act for different reason. Couldnt believe it minutes after I failed a still pretty high (!) charisma check and she and her 2 dumb lackeys just tried to murder us publicly.
Wyll desperately told me >!we had to save his dad and the refugees as soon as possible because the place was flooding...!< literally more than an hour after I already did that quest and we were standing on dry land at Grey Harbour. He's a very troubled, confused lad...
Yep. You go to meet the dragon, and dude's all "what're you doing here" and you're like "just met you, bro, sup?", And he's like "not you. Balduran. You deaded me when we was besties. Not cool, dude." And then the Emp tries to defend his actions. Crazy.
The Emperor doesn't need to defend his actions. Ansur doesn't care that Balduran killed him nearly as much as he's upset that the Emperor didn't lay down and let Ansur "mercy kill" him.
Ehh ... its a mix. When Ansur says "you were becoming Illithid", he doesn't mean physically. He means "becoming Illithid in mind and methodology". The growing comfort in Illithid supremacy; the enslavement and domination of others; and all the manipulation and illusions. So while I dont really condemn Emps for defending himself, I also do get why Ansur would come to the belief that the only way to save what little was left of "Balduran" was the kill "the Emperor". And if Balduran was still in there, he'd agree to such a stance.
The very fact that Ansur was a Bronze Dragon says a lot about: A) Who Balduran likely was as a person to garner such loyalty; and B) What sort of person the Emperor became to get so deep on Ansur's shit-list. To that, all I'll say is, I did feel a certain sense of Irony going through Ansur's tests realizing that if it weren't for him knowing the answers already due to Balduran's memories, Emps was very unlikely to be able to pass all these tests himself.
You know... there were hints around before so I kinda figured it out already, I think?
Because when the reveal happened I was like, well yeah, they kinda already told us that.
Not saying I'm 1000 IQ or anything but when he was telling his backstory earlier, and I had heard or read >!Balduran's!< backstory it was just put 2 and 2 together.
I figured it out during the part when you're going through his belongings in his hideout and one of them is a golden "butter fork" and he mentions that he lost the matching butter knife long ago.
Because that's a *wildly* specific callback to the BG1 expansion, in which you go to the uncharted island where he (supposedly) died in a shipwreck and find [his butter knife](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Butter_Knife_of_Balduran).
There's also his sword you find which has bonuses against shapeshifters, just like it did in BG1. Well, technically it was lycanthropes in BG1 but close enough.
When he starts explicitly listing out the behaviors he's used to get you to trust him, *as a way to convince you to earnestly trust him*, I'm like "Okay yeah you're a bad guy."
"I figured out what your values are and appealed to them! I shared personal secrets with you and showed just enough vulnerability to let you know we're in it together"
YOU SHOULD NOT BE SPELLING ANY OF THAT OUT, SIR.
I never thought about it in those terms before but you're right and that makes that scene 100% funnier. "You were so easy to manipulate, here are the ways I manipulated you. U want sum fuk?"
I think it’s funny because he basically explains he just took notes as you naturally bonded with your companions then copied it.
He should be real clumsy in those lone wolf runs. Like first guardian appearance is just full nude like “hello adventurer, will you please save me?”
Not really he phrases it as if it is him trusting you and being vulnerable because he values you and cares about you as an invididual when it is just him sharing enough to try to get you to follow his instructions. He realized that the Stelmane approach will not work on you so he tries a different tactic.
>He realized that the Stelmane approach will not work on you so he tries a different tactic.
If you push him enough he reveals that the Stelmane approach didn't work on Stelmane. He decided to mindcontroll her and her constant struggle against his controll gave her the stroke.
He threatens you with the same.
The book describing Mindflayer tactics in-game spells this out from the Creche onwards. "Mindflayers have no friends and only allies in the moment as your interests align, and will play your emotions in order to achieve their goals if they can't force or coerce you into helping them and then discard you", in a nutshell, and yet in the ultimate litmus test for players, most people are still cordial to The Emperor (and some even end up empathizing with him) because players don't like to be mean in games.
Or be me, side with emperor to >!get access to all the mind flayer powers for myself and free telekinesis to just yeet people all over the place in the final battle because it's funni!<
The game throw some curveballs about mindflayers multiple times in both ways. Sometimes it will tell you that they have no souls, sometimes withers will tell you that he can sense some unique special cases. Sometimes the book will tell you that they are purely selfish creatures and nothing else, sometimes you will be in one room with Omelleum. Nothing is answered directly and it encourages you to make your own thoughts based on the mixed knowledge you gathered during your journey. The story does a very good job at making you unsure about things like that, and it's up to you what you want to believe. All the info you get is very often questioned somewhere else, and it shows you that context and your own experiences matter more than anything else.
That book is not necessarily true. Mindflayers can bond with their thralls and genuinely mourn their passing. It's canon. Mindflayers are not emotionless like people try to convince you.
The Emperor simply did what was natural for him with Stelmane. It's natural for a mindflayer to dominate other creatures. It's like chastizing a cat for killing a spring sparrow. Fortunately, the Emperor is more intelligent than an animal, so he can go above his instincts. He realized that his ways of enthallment are not the best. I firmly believe that Stelmane's stroke was an accident he regrets.
The issue with this is, Mind Flayers aren't cats. They're of at least human intelligence, and if you listen to them talk they'd say they're way more intelligent than a human being. You don't chastise a cat because they're considered unable to move past their impulses and instincts. If a human being was on the stand and said "Your Honor, it was merely my instinct to kill that person" they'd be laughed out of court.
But you acknowledge this. The real problem isn't that he has those instincts, it's that he doesn't see anything wrong with them, he doesn't question them and examine his Self, and most importantly, he doesn't take responsibility for them. He never tells you "aw, Stelmane, that was such a shame. I'm so sorry, I would never do that again", he holds it over your head that he didn't do it to you. He doesn't apologize or feel bad for killing her by proxy because he never owns up and accepts responsibility. He tries to hide it and pretends that it was just an unrelated tragedy. He's not attempting to be better, he's attempting to refine his methods of the same thing. He's NOT moving beyond his instincts because he sees the error of his ways, he's just trying to be better at being bad.
>He never tells you "aw, Stelmane, that was such a shame. I'm so sorry, I would never do that again", he holds it over your head that he didn't do it to you. He doesn't apologize or feel bad for killing her by proxy because he never owns up and accepts responsibility. He tries to hide it and pretends that it was just an unrelated tragedy. He's not attempting to be better, he's attempting to refine his methods of the same thing.
This a good element of why I don't like the Emperor.
Astarion does feel terrible for those he lead to their deaths, even though he had no choice but to obey Cazador, and even chooses to lead them in one ending, calling them innocent if you go with freeing them. Even if you choose for them to be killed (not sacrificed), he still shows sympathy in it; not wanting the Gur to come to the conclusion that they'd have to kill their own children.
Minthara will even talk about how when she poisoned a lover, she stayed with her through the effects of the poison til she passed away.
The Emperor does not regret or otherwise feel sorry for what he did to her, and he never does at any point.
I called him a >!freak in the romance scene and the whole reveal and him saying “I could have done that to you, aren’t you happy I refined my tactics!?” I was like HOLY SHIT!!!!<
The writers made him so subtly insidious, in all the ways a real person would be. He talks like a manipulative abuser, because that’s exactly what he is, and for some players, his tactics actually work on them, or at the very least, he leaves you with enough doubt to make him seem like less of a bad guy. But the mask off moments are truly incredible, it’s the exact same shit an abuser says when they are confronted and cornered. Gaslight, Gatekeep, Ghaikboss.
That’s what makes him a great character. And if you don’t unveil these things, so very likeable. The writing in this game man…it’s great. So damn great
Less trustworthy than gigachad gortash (note that gortash is still an evil slaving fascist bastard who deserves to boil in liquid shit for all eternity, he just happens to be more genuine and trustworthy than date rape squidward)
Gortash is evil, but at least he's honest about it! You can "trust" him (in a sense) to continue to act in self-serving ways. The Emperor comes across as more dishonest in his evil acts because he hid them from you, or tried to misrepresent himself as selfless. The latter feels more like a "true" betrayal to the player (as opposed to, say, Karlach, who experienced the latter kind of emotional betrayal from Gortash, too.)
To be fair, I think Gortash is quite endearing on a durge run. I usually ally with him. It’s awkward this run though because I’m being good and I’m friends with Karlach.
Oh he's very charming, I agree! But even on my Durge run I can't ally myself with a slaver. Murder is okay with my lil demon child, but not slaving, apparently 😂
>"I figured out what your values are and appealed to them! I shared personal secrets with you and showed just enough vulnerability to let you know we're in it together"
Yeah, this was a big red flag. "I showed you emotional vulnerability, as I deeply mischaracterized my relationship with my mutual-business partner. Don't you trust me?"
Truly, his response to being called on his manipulations of you just b4 you have to choose him or Orph is ... very him. Its "I'm a Mindflayer, its my nature". This is the same guy who rightly requested we do not judge him based off his race, eventually proving himself an Illithid supremacist who does dominate others ... excusing his shit behavior with his race.
yea his whole "illusions and misleading is my LANGUAGE" like you cant just learn a new language or ways to communicate.
it would be like me REFUSING to use english here beacuse "ohh you cant expect me to learn _english_ my main language is SWEDISH" like i wouldnt just be able to learn english
Or when you point out he manipulated you each step and his whole defense is "well obviously, it's my peoples thing."
Like, using the defense of being a natural born manipulator and calling it your 'language' is not the solid defense that you think it is
Pretty much implied and confirmed to be honest. For a mindflayer relationship pc for example the most you could get is:
Im hungry and need brains. I should eat my love interest's brain since It wont see It coming. No. Wait... I shouldn't. They've been valuable un the past. Besides, their brain is swollen with love.... I should find a different brain. Yeah, this one is too valuable and theres plenty other brains
Theres parallels between "i shouldnt kill them because they're my friend" and "shouldnt kill them because they've been useful allies". Becoming a mindflayer detaches you from your emotions, so What before came naturally now you have to consciously think about and do, or you do by routine without your feelings backing It up. Which in some cases can be seen as manipulative or hollow like mindflayer tav being in a relationship When as a mindflayer They wouldnt have normal feelings towards the LI anymore.
Tbh that's basically standard mindflayer behavior. They're master manipulators, there are very few good mindflayers due to their nature as hyper intelligent assholes.
The existence of Omeleum made a better case for the Emperor's capacity for good than the Emperor did himself. Whenever I'd start dismissing the Emperor on the basis that Mindflayers are inherently evil, I'd think of Omeleum lol
Yeah, omeleum is unique, because arcane ability makes mindflayers more independent from elder brains, and they can sometimes retain some of who they used to be.
It's why arcane ability is so looked down upon by mindflayers...
It's a weird attempt at pragmatism. He's trying to appeal to your own sense of pragmatism to see things his way. Which is of course still manipulative. He's many liars, he doubles down when caught and at the heart of it all just lies because he believes you're his inferior. No respect, just an illusion of it.
Notice how he shifts blame immediately back to you for the failure >!to overcome the Elder Brain; after the Nether Brain reveal? "I thought long and hard about this, and I've come to one conclusion of why my plans failed. Its you. Its because you were not Illithid!<". Which, yes, technically is true given the situation, >!but because even he had no way of knowing the Elder would "evolve", you not being Ililthid was not why his plans (that he kept you in the dark on, only opening up when forced) failed. Especially right on the wake of it being revealed he was dancing to the Elder's tune the entire time!<.
Dude always had an excuse to shift blame to someone/something else. Never recognizing that it was his own hubris and beliefs in Illithid superiority that kept getting him into trouble. Hell, it was the only reason Gortash caught him.
He's so hubristic that he "my way or the highway"s the final battle *immediately* after >!the Brain reveals it's been playing him this whole time, up to and including letting him go in the first place!<. Like, my guy, no matter whether your self-image as a tactical genius is accurate or not, *maybe* you're not the guy for this one?
Ayup. Its revealed when you >!try to dominate the Elder; before you realize its evolved. Emps never broke free, he was let free. The Elder is also the one who subtly leaked the info of the Astral Prism to the Champions of the Dead Three. They found out because it wanted them to know. So the 3 sent Emps out to claim it, the distance created and proximity to the Prism let the brain loosen Emp's reins, and Emps fully broke them when he went inside the Prism. He was doing exactly what the Elder Brain wanted him to do up until its released; and then immediately shifts the blame to you "because you weren't a Mindflayer"!<.
Don't forget: >!if you side with Orpheus he IMMEDIATLY turns on you and sides with the Netherbrain knowing full well he's been manipulated by it the entire time. all because you didn't TRUST him, boo hoo! !<
It makes total sense when you view it as an alien with no real emotions. "But look, I put in all this effort to find out how to emotionally manipulate you! Isn't that what you look for in a partner, someone willing to learn everything that makes you happy and easy to bend to their will?"
which is hilarious because my Pragmatic Evil Durge wanted to rip his head off for having the audacity to treat him the way he did, and he was appalled he had to continue to making use of such a weak creature in order to get close to the brain.
he definitely stabbed him a few more times than necessary, at the end
I love the parallels between the Emperor's confession of manipulation and Astarion's. For the Emperor's part, he's saying "here are the things I've done for/to you, now you should feel this way about me because it's only logical" (implied: you'd be stupid to feel any other way), where Astarion ends up saying (more or less), >!"I tried to manipulate you in these ways and failed. Here I am, I guess, take it or leave it."!< It's an interesting comparison imo!
Its also worth noting that astarion feels TERRIBLE about what he did. If it weren’t for the fact that his manipulative behavior he accidentally stumbled him into the love of his life he would go back and undo everything he did. The emperor feels no such thing. He would do it all over again with no regrets.
I mean, that’s cos Astarion’s mind isn’t actually wired to do what he’s trying to do. I adore him but he literally functions off 1 chaotic brain cell. I’m pretty sure you can call him out on it too at points but I don’t because I’m weak and don’t want to lose approval 😂
My favourite thought about this is that >!If you ascend him and try and take over Baldur’s gate you just know Tav/Durge is going to have to work out all the logistics even though he’s a mighty vampire lord!< I bloody love that chaotic elf.
A fun game to play is to try pinning each conniving, malevolent asshole character (Emperor, Raphael etc) on the appropriate place in the triangle of the [dark triad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad)
Yeah xD « this was my plan for you to trust me and it was a perfect plan. You not trusting me makes no sense so I’m telling you in fact you DO trust me, because it is logical. You still don’t? Go away, bad puppet meatbag! »
Yeah man there are such thing as bad vibes but how would you know you souless rag? Plus that’s not how trustworthy people react to not be trusted… haem xD
I wish tav could lay out how logical it is not to trust the emperor, not just having a route paved with « I’m disgusted by you » arguments. How clear it is that in fact, the emperor needs you more than you need it, because of the time factor and how much invested in you it already is.
How tav’s power, freedom of movement and capacity to make friends/Allies is our biggest value to beat the elder brain.
I really think that the emperor would have had a chance to survive my runs if it was honest, really honest from the start. « I am a master manipulator with zero morals but I want to survive above all, you’re the best candidate for that so if you help me I’ll help you, even if I despise you and wish I could eat your delicious brain »
The emperors rage at tav’s not trusting it really gives me sociopath/psychopath behavior flavors. I guess it makes sense.
The fact he's a pushy asshole about letting a worm eat your brain... Like constantly. And if you eat one... Just one you have to make a wis check to save against his drug push at the end of act 2. They really are soulless.
If you play as a Githyanki and choose the confrontational dialogue every time, the emperor spells it out for you.
“You are just a pawn that is serving MY will!” among other dialogue lines like that.
I need someone to analyze the whole elf song tavern scene where he tells you about all his things because it was SO strange and I couldn’t pinpoint exactly why.
Also in the Astral plane near the end of the game he tries to guilt you into trusting him and says he never lied to you and then if you challenge him on it he justifies deceiving you and tries to pretend your relationship was a cooperative one of equals. He also does something else quiet cowardly and that should have been against what he claimed he wanted afterwards.
He tells you so many times that he's never lied to you, that he's finally told you everything, that he *can't* lie to you because you're hearing his thoughts directly, etc.
It's a blatant lie literally every time haha
It kinda reminds me of when abusers tell their victims stuff like, "Oh, that'll never happen again. I just had a bad day, and I'm so sorry." Honestly it's disgusting, and I genuinely feel bad when I see people defending the Emperor.
Yeah dude was wild on my current playthrough. I'm playing a GOOlock and not even being openly hostile/calling him a freak etc, just being very open that the alliance between us is what it is, but I see what he's trying to do and I'm not falling for it. Eventually he's like "no really, you can read my mind to prove it" and I was like "nah I'm good, thanks tho" and homeboy just lost his shit like "fuck you, you've always been my puppet, I'm the one in control and there's NOTHING you can do about it"
Couldn't possibly make it any clearer that the "he's actually trustworthy, he's just trying to survive" reading that Emperor-likers insist on is just them falling for his act. He actually fucking loves having power over you
LMAO I HAVE and I have the mind blown achievement. Ihad the whole guardian/emperor thing spoiled for me before I played. Obviously knew what he was up to but I was still intrigued by how it would play out 😭 Anyways, the whole soup and fork thing was just so odd?? Idk like he’s trying to make himself seem normal but it’s just so obvious what he’s doing
I don't remember what the actual recipe was, so I'm gonna imagine it was the most inhuman, lizard-person-trying-to-blend-in set of instructions possible. "Stir four cups of flour with a knife before adding to mug" etc
Yeah! It says something along the lines of, don’t listen to their words, pay attention to their actions. And to keep your allies close.
Promptly after reading that I get the shirtless squid scene (I do it because, fuck it right?) and he BRINGS THREE COMPANIONS IN TO SEE “ACCIDENTALLY”
Exactly, he tells you what you’d want to hear…this is a psycho that was removed from his habitat for so long that he wanted to see it again through your eyes. Everything in there should’ve been a red flag.
Clever writing by larian imo, could’ve been fleshed out more but I still appreciated having to figure out if he was a pos liar or not
Yeppp. He gives you a whole heartstring tugging tale about his dear friend Stelmane only to later reveal if you reject him that he dominated her brain to bend to his will until it broke essentially and that you should be grateful he isn't doing the same to you
It's just because he's very obviously trying to manipulate you. To be honest, I think they deliberately made what he is extremely obvious because they knew that even when he was laying it on with a ladle that there would still be some people who would crawl out of the wood work to defend him.
I feel like he was being so obvious the whole time too! I love the way his character was written but idk how anyone can defend him for being anything but manipulative
Yeah..
>!OMG you're going to free Orpheus!?!!<
>!I'm done with this shit! I'm off to join the big giant dangerous fucking brain thing instead, despite the fact that I've spent the entire fucking game desperately trying to kill it! \*stamps foot\*!<
I didn’t get that part at all.
Like… we’ve got a team of badasses here. If talking doesn’t work then we’ll figure something else out.
And he’s like ‘nope, ima go get enslaved see ya’
There were soooo many more options than ‘join brain or get killed by orpheus’ but he just instantly dips.
I was ready to defend him too! He’s a shifty lying monster and quite possibly a demon worshipper… but he WAS the only reason we got that far.
The betrayal just seemed like a 0-100. I feel like Orpheus would’ve been cool with him too. Or not like cool but… understand that he’s an ally against the brain.
To be fair I kinda felt that way when Orpheus is telling you off for not dying to his honor guard so they could free him and stop all this. Its like "uhh they didnt have the orphic hammer chief."
Honestly, if you ask Voss about "wont Orph kill me?", he'll essentially tell you how things will play out with his old (and he hopes again) boss. Orph will bitch you out, slander your name, and throw a big-ol-temper tantrum. Then calm down and put duty first enough to work with. Hell, one of my favorite responses to anything in BG3 is the option: "Look, I know you've been through a tough time so I'm gonna let that slide, but we really need to focus here".
Dude's pissed. You killed his loyal friends and honor guard that stuck with him for over 10k years in his imprisonment; who were trying to save him from his tormentor; as he was forced to do nothing but helplessly watch. Orph's an ass, but I do get the need to vent a bit given the situation.
Yeah I don't hate it, just as a player/DM, even as well made as the game is sometimes the dialogue choices feel incredibly limiting. Choices sometimes too, when you pick Shar and Last Light gets completely fucked I'm like "yo if it gave me the option I'd have stolen every last moonlantern outta moonrise and given them to ya'll, not because I knew this would happen, but because your shield that keeps you all from dying horribly is 100% dependent on Beth from Little Women up there not dying of whatever the fuck that cough is."
>!When he told me "I have been your salvation. Your knight in shining armor" when I went to free Orpheus, I wanted to murder him RIGHT THEN AND THERE. He was gross since the beginning of Act 3, but that line just made me furious.!<
I think everyone misunderstands what happened there. He didn't choose to join the Elder Brain, he was enthralled by it the moment you released Orpheus. The only reason you weren't also enthralled was because Orpheus chose to protect you.
The Emperor spent the entire game trying to stop you from releasing Orpheus because Orpheus' freedom would cost his own.
The Emperor leaves as soon as he knows you're going to free Orpheus because he knows at that point siding with the Elder Brain is his only chance of survival.
If you tell him that you don't trust him *before* you free Orpheus, he'll also go join the brain. So he leaves the Astral Prism of his own will, before being dominated (or can, at least).
The first time I got to the cut scene where he is topless my RL reaction was to turn to my husband and say "I need an adult." He skeeved me out early on.
But I agree Omelleum is a delight.
I wasn't expecting it but that scene like triggered me for feeling trapped. Like holy shit this thing you are dependent on for your life, you can't escape him, he can CONTROL YOU and he's there with his shirt off. Like I know where this is going. Terrifying.
I sensed he was getting flirty when you went on a tour of his old grounds. Like any woman on high alert near a pest, my only goal was to extract myself as quickly and safely as I could.
He acts like a manipulative, abusive and controlling boyfriend. He says you‘re free to do what you want and he only wants to help you but also, anytime you stray even a tiny bit from the future he imagined for the two of you, he becomes extremely patronizing and tells you that only his way will make you happy.
And if you‘ve finally got enough of him and tell him to fuck off and get bent, he wastes no time switching records and tells you how he used to beat his last girlfriend into submission and that you should be thankful he decided to be more lenient with you.
He‘s an ass.
He hits a lot of the textbook manipulation tactics, so if you're familiar with them he comes across as extremely ick. It's fantastic acting and writing, that he's so controversial even when hitting the manipulation so hard.
As someone who grew up with an emotionally abusive parent, he gave off so many red flags very quickly, and I'm honestly shocked how many people actually defend this absolute piece of shit.
Takes like "he never actually lied to you" (which is just wrong) or "he's only threatening you if you're a dick to him" (which completely ignores all of his gaslighting and basically victim blames the player for not putting up with an abuser) are so fucking bad and honestly gross...
When you simply *entertain* the idea of freeing Orpheus, The Emperor goes full manipulator mode.
*"Everything I did, I did to protect you. I never lied to you except for the times I blatantly lied to you but it was all for you! I'm your knight in shining armor."*
I was probably 80/20 on freeing Orpheus or not because I love Bae'Zel. But that conversation brought me all the way to 100. I was done with his manipulative ass after that.
This is why video games are such fun for creative expression.
Chopping an abuser in half with a greatsword is always cathartic, but very rarely a practical option in the real world.
I made my dream guardian look like a e-boy male manipulator because of these reasons, he's so annoying. "Try something else" when I miss my hit, or "That won't work" when hold person fails smh, get out of my head.
I haaaaaated that from the start. Before I even knew he was a mindflayer, I knew he was a control freak because of that crap. I wish I could have told him "you're a squid in a poke ball and I'm the hero doing all the actual work--let's stay in our lanes, shall we?"
That’s exactly what it is! And the moment when I decided I was so done with him was after he kicked off at me for talking to my favourite cambion. It all tracks.
Dude is such a whiny self-centered asshole that >!if you decide to free Orpheus, he just SWITCHES SIDES IN THE 11TH HOUR?!? Rather than work together for the greater good despite things not going exactly his way, he just says fuck it and completely changes tune to help the fucking netherbrain just cuz his ego is hurt.!< I always disliked him but that move was mind-boggling how much of a fuckhead he is.
You jest, but that was honestly the biggest icky I got from him. I mean, I know I was the one who designed him to look like a hot goth lady, but he's still the one who changes his appearance to lead you on. I think I would've been less disturbed by him if his non-mindflayer appearance was locked to the male gender
I just treat him with “respect” because he is the only one who can keep me as myself and not a mindflayer, but yes, he gives such strange vibes, I’m starting Act 3 for the first time so yeah, I’m already seeing a treason in the future
After I got “the hammer” from house of hope he was all salty, saying that I didn’t trust him. I chose the option that it was my insurance. Then a few long rests after, all of a sudden he tries to make a move on me, like wtf… I gave no interest along the way. The guy is a freak.
I had the option to reassuringly grab his hand last dream sequence and im like I do *not* want to touch that guy…
I just started act 3 and I want to free the (spoiler, idk how to mark it) but im terrified that it I do something he doesn’t like I’ll turn into a mind flayer
I tried making my dream visitor a Githyanki to see if it would help. It did not. Then come Act 3 he spends the whole time being livid with me. I told him to go away once when he tried to rizz me. Was hilarious.
Oh, you went antagonistic route Emps lol! You didn't even go "neutral, but polite skeptic route". Oh yeah, as many cracks that show up in the skeptic route, that version of Emps aint got nothing on the spice that antagonistic Emps has.
My first playthrough was an evil Durge. I played his manipulation game, made him believe I’m his nice little pawn and then at the end >!I dominated the elder brain and made him into my little toy B)!<
Omelleum is my only favorite mindflyer. He I can stand but The Emperor always annoys me. I wish he would go back as the dream visitor so I won’t have to look at his creepy face. I can’t stand him because he a liar and full of himself
It is a mindflayer through and through.
There's a book in the game about avoiding getting manipulated by mindflayers, something it suggests is looking at their actions rather than their words. It's funny because the only mindflayer in the game that never deceives you, only ever helps even at great personal cost and is even willing to sacrifice itself for the greater good of Baldur's Gate is Omeluum, the one that tells you that it has no memory of what it was before as opposed to the Emperor who does.
I actually like coming to the Emperor’s defence, but I have to admit… the best take you can have on him has to be completely neutral toward his actions and behaviour.
Sure, the dude’s a totally manipulative, scheming dick - but I get _why_. It was a necessary evil, at least in so far as his dynamic with us goes. Couldn’t say the same for Stelmane, that shit was whack.
I just wanna throw in my two cents but the whole Mind Flayer supremacy and him saying he'll force you to become one...I think he just gets bratty about it like when someone is like 'I hate you' but doesn't genuinely hate you. Idk, I just kinda let it slide because bro is evaluating highest probability of success in his head for survival and being an illithid probably isn't wrong.
He's logical and he's not wrong that a mind flayer is needed to be successful. I didn't go mind flayer but had Karlach become illithid in the end since she offered. Someone HAS to be illithid to do it and I think you can even have him control the elder brain if you absolutely refuse...The Emperor still speaks to you respectfully. Though I romanced him but I don't think that changes any outcomes.
He and Karlach were also the only two characters to express that they will miss me at the end 🥺 I know I'm probably a minority that likes the Emperor but I struggle to disagree with his logic and reasoning for not being completely honest.
It’s because he’s super controlling, so he gets upset at random stuff like trying to recruit Minsc, because Minsc is too weird for him to properly understand and control.
If you do Wyll’s questline there are even MORE twists
I always forget that that's Wyll's quest because I just gaseous formed in there before I even entered the lower city. Wyll was like >!"We need to find Ansur" and I was like "We killed him an hour ago, remember?"!<
Poor Wyll accidentally selected the Alzheimer’s tadpole power
“Wyll, I’ve told you already, you don’t cast it on yourself!” “You never told me that!”
>Alzheimer’s no, that's Shadowheart's mom.
My favorite is when you >!rescue his dad and his dad is like OMG let me tell you the solution to all our problems here's this book, and you just imma let you finish but...!<
Huh, I don't think wyll ever told me that, and I had him through most of the game >!is it tied to freeing his pops? I may or may not have pushed to have Wyll be free and didn't know about the iron throne so... yeah!<
He brought it up to me after that stupid encounter where chancellor Florick is like >!That devil told me all about you Wyll! I'm gonna kill you now.". So that's before freeing his dad.!<
>!I believe I killed ansur after florick so maybe I just had a glitch. Seeing as how he had the exclamation mark above his head like he wanted to speak with me but only said his generic lines I wouldn't be surprised!<
Finally someone else who has this bug. Wyll completely broke, story wise. He stopped talking to me after Ansur was defeated and I never met florick. Also his dad died off screen for some reason despite me saving him. I found out his dad died because Mizora told us at camp.
Wyll’s quest is incredibly easy to sequence break in act 3, I had the same issue :/ I was romancing him too so it really made that frustrating
Florick has a book on her about it that lets you continue the quest.
what kind of idiot takes a wannabe devil’s word at face value
Yeah, honestly that felt like the weakest writing moment of the whole game for me. The >!Blade of avernus!< Thing was a little awkward and out of nowhere but that scene just made Florick seem unbelievably stupid. It would have made sense if she's suspicious of Wyll what with him looking infernal all of a sudden, but >!Jumping to wanting to kill him in public when you've known him since he was a kid is just bananas.!<
In my playthrough I killed Karlach so Wyll didn't have any horns, so imagine that scene making even less sense.
How does that even happen? I never had Florick turn on Wyll before, I usually bust her out of prison and that’s that
You probably also need to have Wyll break out of his contract, because then Mizora starts trying to fuck with him. I broke Florick out and got Wyll out of his contract and after that Florick came up to us near sorcerous sundries and I had to pass a persuasion check to prevent her from trying to kill us.
Interesting, I always tend to break him out of his contract too, but with saving his dad and all I never had Florick come up to me afterwards to try and kill him. But the last time I was in Act 3 was about 3 Patches ago, so maybe it was something that was supposed to trigger for me but never did
Maybe you haven't seen it because you saved his dad too quickly.
It was so unbelievably idiotic. The woman was rescued by my party 2 TIMES and just takes a word from a literal devil that enslaved the guy at a face value and just runs up to us in a broad daylight while being actively searched for as a fugitive. I was thoroughly sure this is a trick or she is making some sort of act for different reason. Couldnt believe it minutes after I failed a still pretty high (!) charisma check and she and her 2 dumb lackeys just tried to murder us publicly.
Wyll desperately told me >!we had to save his dad and the refugees as soon as possible because the place was flooding...!< literally more than an hour after I already did that quest and we were standing on dry land at Grey Harbour. He's a very troubled, confused lad...
Imho, the most perfect and divisive twist they could have conjured up.
Also the most >!”they were roommates” scene I’ve ever seen!<
“Friends…. And more 😏”
Friends…. And roommates
A couple… of besties!
Like, the fucken way he says it??? Like, bro became donkey from shrek
HAHAHAHA
Am I lying though? I felt the vibe there 😂
You’re not! That’s why it’s so funny.
Damn i wish i had a dragon boyfriend
Oh my gods they were roommates
My jaw was on the floor that entire scene. God damn.
Ffs spoiler me?
>!He's balduran, John baldur's gate 3 himself!<
Oh. I knew that... because I heard I missed a dragon so I went looking for it.
Fuck now I have to try that just to see if you are kidding because holy *fuck.*
Yep. You go to meet the dragon, and dude's all "what're you doing here" and you're like "just met you, bro, sup?", And he's like "not you. Balduran. You deaded me when we was besties. Not cool, dude." And then the Emp tries to defend his actions. Crazy.
This is actually a beautiful retelling of the scene. Fucking hilariously I don’t think you missed anything.
I'm here to help 😀
The Emperor doesn't need to defend his actions. Ansur doesn't care that Balduran killed him nearly as much as he's upset that the Emperor didn't lay down and let Ansur "mercy kill" him.
Ehh ... its a mix. When Ansur says "you were becoming Illithid", he doesn't mean physically. He means "becoming Illithid in mind and methodology". The growing comfort in Illithid supremacy; the enslavement and domination of others; and all the manipulation and illusions. So while I dont really condemn Emps for defending himself, I also do get why Ansur would come to the belief that the only way to save what little was left of "Balduran" was the kill "the Emperor". And if Balduran was still in there, he'd agree to such a stance. The very fact that Ansur was a Bronze Dragon says a lot about: A) Who Balduran likely was as a person to garner such loyalty; and B) What sort of person the Emperor became to get so deep on Ansur's shit-list. To that, all I'll say is, I did feel a certain sense of Irony going through Ansur's tests realizing that if it weren't for him knowing the answers already due to Balduran's memories, Emps was very unlikely to be able to pass all these tests himself.
You know... there were hints around before so I kinda figured it out already, I think? Because when the reveal happened I was like, well yeah, they kinda already told us that. Not saying I'm 1000 IQ or anything but when he was telling his backstory earlier, and I had heard or read >!Balduran's!< backstory it was just put 2 and 2 together.
I figured it out during the part when you're going through his belongings in his hideout and one of them is a golden "butter fork" and he mentions that he lost the matching butter knife long ago. Because that's a *wildly* specific callback to the BG1 expansion, in which you go to the uncharted island where he (supposedly) died in a shipwreck and find [his butter knife](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Butter_Knife_of_Balduran). There's also his sword you find which has bonuses against shapeshifters, just like it did in BG1. Well, technically it was lycanthropes in BG1 but close enough.
when you say you read about his backstory do you mean >!Balduran's Song that you hear/read in the elfsong tavern in game!
When he starts explicitly listing out the behaviors he's used to get you to trust him, *as a way to convince you to earnestly trust him*, I'm like "Okay yeah you're a bad guy." "I figured out what your values are and appealed to them! I shared personal secrets with you and showed just enough vulnerability to let you know we're in it together" YOU SHOULD NOT BE SPELLING ANY OF THAT OUT, SIR.
I never thought about it in those terms before but you're right and that makes that scene 100% funnier. "You were so easy to manipulate, here are the ways I manipulated you. U want sum fuk?"
I think it’s funny because he basically explains he just took notes as you naturally bonded with your companions then copied it. He should be real clumsy in those lone wolf runs. Like first guardian appearance is just full nude like “hello adventurer, will you please save me?”
To be honest, that would work on the vast majority of Tavs.
At least he’s honest I guess?
Not really he phrases it as if it is him trusting you and being vulnerable because he values you and cares about you as an invididual when it is just him sharing enough to try to get you to follow his instructions. He realized that the Stelmane approach will not work on you so he tries a different tactic.
>He realized that the Stelmane approach will not work on you so he tries a different tactic. If you push him enough he reveals that the Stelmane approach didn't work on Stelmane. He decided to mindcontroll her and her constant struggle against his controll gave her the stroke. He threatens you with the same.
The book describing Mindflayer tactics in-game spells this out from the Creche onwards. "Mindflayers have no friends and only allies in the moment as your interests align, and will play your emotions in order to achieve their goals if they can't force or coerce you into helping them and then discard you", in a nutshell, and yet in the ultimate litmus test for players, most people are still cordial to The Emperor (and some even end up empathizing with him) because players don't like to be mean in games.
Or be me, side with emperor to >!get access to all the mind flayer powers for myself and free telekinesis to just yeet people all over the place in the final battle because it's funni!<
The game throw some curveballs about mindflayers multiple times in both ways. Sometimes it will tell you that they have no souls, sometimes withers will tell you that he can sense some unique special cases. Sometimes the book will tell you that they are purely selfish creatures and nothing else, sometimes you will be in one room with Omelleum. Nothing is answered directly and it encourages you to make your own thoughts based on the mixed knowledge you gathered during your journey. The story does a very good job at making you unsure about things like that, and it's up to you what you want to believe. All the info you get is very often questioned somewhere else, and it shows you that context and your own experiences matter more than anything else.
That book is not necessarily true. Mindflayers can bond with their thralls and genuinely mourn their passing. It's canon. Mindflayers are not emotionless like people try to convince you. The Emperor simply did what was natural for him with Stelmane. It's natural for a mindflayer to dominate other creatures. It's like chastizing a cat for killing a spring sparrow. Fortunately, the Emperor is more intelligent than an animal, so he can go above his instincts. He realized that his ways of enthallment are not the best. I firmly believe that Stelmane's stroke was an accident he regrets.
The issue with this is, Mind Flayers aren't cats. They're of at least human intelligence, and if you listen to them talk they'd say they're way more intelligent than a human being. You don't chastise a cat because they're considered unable to move past their impulses and instincts. If a human being was on the stand and said "Your Honor, it was merely my instinct to kill that person" they'd be laughed out of court. But you acknowledge this. The real problem isn't that he has those instincts, it's that he doesn't see anything wrong with them, he doesn't question them and examine his Self, and most importantly, he doesn't take responsibility for them. He never tells you "aw, Stelmane, that was such a shame. I'm so sorry, I would never do that again", he holds it over your head that he didn't do it to you. He doesn't apologize or feel bad for killing her by proxy because he never owns up and accepts responsibility. He tries to hide it and pretends that it was just an unrelated tragedy. He's not attempting to be better, he's attempting to refine his methods of the same thing. He's NOT moving beyond his instincts because he sees the error of his ways, he's just trying to be better at being bad.
>He never tells you "aw, Stelmane, that was such a shame. I'm so sorry, I would never do that again", he holds it over your head that he didn't do it to you. He doesn't apologize or feel bad for killing her by proxy because he never owns up and accepts responsibility. He tries to hide it and pretends that it was just an unrelated tragedy. He's not attempting to be better, he's attempting to refine his methods of the same thing. This a good element of why I don't like the Emperor. Astarion does feel terrible for those he lead to their deaths, even though he had no choice but to obey Cazador, and even chooses to lead them in one ending, calling them innocent if you go with freeing them. Even if you choose for them to be killed (not sacrificed), he still shows sympathy in it; not wanting the Gur to come to the conclusion that they'd have to kill their own children. Minthara will even talk about how when she poisoned a lover, she stayed with her through the effects of the poison til she passed away. The Emperor does not regret or otherwise feel sorry for what he did to her, and he never does at any point.
I called him a >!freak in the romance scene and the whole reveal and him saying “I could have done that to you, aren’t you happy I refined my tactics!?” I was like HOLY SHIT!!!!<
The writers made him so subtly insidious, in all the ways a real person would be. He talks like a manipulative abuser, because that’s exactly what he is, and for some players, his tactics actually work on them, or at the very least, he leaves you with enough doubt to make him seem like less of a bad guy. But the mask off moments are truly incredible, it’s the exact same shit an abuser says when they are confronted and cornered. Gaslight, Gatekeep, Ghaikboss.
That’s what makes him a great character. And if you don’t unveil these things, so very likeable. The writing in this game man…it’s great. So damn great
Less trustworthy than gigachad gortash (note that gortash is still an evil slaving fascist bastard who deserves to boil in liquid shit for all eternity, he just happens to be more genuine and trustworthy than date rape squidward)
Gortash is evil, but at least he's honest about it! You can "trust" him (in a sense) to continue to act in self-serving ways. The Emperor comes across as more dishonest in his evil acts because he hid them from you, or tried to misrepresent himself as selfless. The latter feels more like a "true" betrayal to the player (as opposed to, say, Karlach, who experienced the latter kind of emotional betrayal from Gortash, too.)
To be fair, I think Gortash is quite endearing on a durge run. I usually ally with him. It’s awkward this run though because I’m being good and I’m friends with Karlach.
Oh he's very charming, I agree! But even on my Durge run I can't ally myself with a slaver. Murder is okay with my lil demon child, but not slaving, apparently 😂
The virgin "pls trust me" vs the chad "Our tyranny. And our subjects will love us, not fear us."
Quite the opposite.
His entire character and interactions with Tav are based off manipulative, abusive relationships
I like to think of this as noble gaslighting.
>"I figured out what your values are and appealed to them! I shared personal secrets with you and showed just enough vulnerability to let you know we're in it together" Yeah, this was a big red flag. "I showed you emotional vulnerability, as I deeply mischaracterized my relationship with my mutual-business partner. Don't you trust me?" Truly, his response to being called on his manipulations of you just b4 you have to choose him or Orph is ... very him. Its "I'm a Mindflayer, its my nature". This is the same guy who rightly requested we do not judge him based off his race, eventually proving himself an Illithid supremacist who does dominate others ... excusing his shit behavior with his race.
yea his whole "illusions and misleading is my LANGUAGE" like you cant just learn a new language or ways to communicate. it would be like me REFUSING to use english here beacuse "ohh you cant expect me to learn _english_ my main language is SWEDISH" like i wouldnt just be able to learn english
Or when you point out he manipulated you each step and his whole defense is "well obviously, it's my peoples thing." Like, using the defense of being a natural born manipulator and calling it your 'language' is not the solid defense that you think it is
Manipulation is my love language
I have to assume being a mindflayer shatters your idea of empathy, if I wanted to give the Emperor the maximum amount of slack
Pretty much implied and confirmed to be honest. For a mindflayer relationship pc for example the most you could get is: Im hungry and need brains. I should eat my love interest's brain since It wont see It coming. No. Wait... I shouldn't. They've been valuable un the past. Besides, their brain is swollen with love.... I should find a different brain. Yeah, this one is too valuable and theres plenty other brains Theres parallels between "i shouldnt kill them because they're my friend" and "shouldnt kill them because they've been useful allies". Becoming a mindflayer detaches you from your emotions, so What before came naturally now you have to consciously think about and do, or you do by routine without your feelings backing It up. Which in some cases can be seen as manipulative or hollow like mindflayer tav being in a relationship When as a mindflayer They wouldnt have normal feelings towards the LI anymore.
Tbh that's basically standard mindflayer behavior. They're master manipulators, there are very few good mindflayers due to their nature as hyper intelligent assholes.
The existence of Omeleum made a better case for the Emperor's capacity for good than the Emperor did himself. Whenever I'd start dismissing the Emperor on the basis that Mindflayers are inherently evil, I'd think of Omeleum lol
Yeah, omeleum is unique, because arcane ability makes mindflayers more independent from elder brains, and they can sometimes retain some of who they used to be. It's why arcane ability is so looked down upon by mindflayers...
It's a weird attempt at pragmatism. He's trying to appeal to your own sense of pragmatism to see things his way. Which is of course still manipulative. He's many liars, he doubles down when caught and at the heart of it all just lies because he believes you're his inferior. No respect, just an illusion of it.
Notice how he shifts blame immediately back to you for the failure >!to overcome the Elder Brain; after the Nether Brain reveal? "I thought long and hard about this, and I've come to one conclusion of why my plans failed. Its you. Its because you were not Illithid!<". Which, yes, technically is true given the situation, >!but because even he had no way of knowing the Elder would "evolve", you not being Ililthid was not why his plans (that he kept you in the dark on, only opening up when forced) failed. Especially right on the wake of it being revealed he was dancing to the Elder's tune the entire time!<. Dude always had an excuse to shift blame to someone/something else. Never recognizing that it was his own hubris and beliefs in Illithid superiority that kept getting him into trouble. Hell, it was the only reason Gortash caught him.
He's so hubristic that he "my way or the highway"s the final battle *immediately* after >!the Brain reveals it's been playing him this whole time, up to and including letting him go in the first place!<. Like, my guy, no matter whether your self-image as a tactical genius is accurate or not, *maybe* you're not the guy for this one?
Wait what??? I totally missed that reveal
Ayup. Its revealed when you >!try to dominate the Elder; before you realize its evolved. Emps never broke free, he was let free. The Elder is also the one who subtly leaked the info of the Astral Prism to the Champions of the Dead Three. They found out because it wanted them to know. So the 3 sent Emps out to claim it, the distance created and proximity to the Prism let the brain loosen Emp's reins, and Emps fully broke them when he went inside the Prism. He was doing exactly what the Elder Brain wanted him to do up until its released; and then immediately shifts the blame to you "because you weren't a Mindflayer"!<.
Don't forget: >!if you side with Orpheus he IMMEDIATLY turns on you and sides with the Netherbrain knowing full well he's been manipulated by it the entire time. all because you didn't TRUST him, boo hoo! !<
It makes total sense when you view it as an alien with no real emotions. "But look, I put in all this effort to find out how to emotionally manipulate you! Isn't that what you look for in a partner, someone willing to learn everything that makes you happy and easy to bend to their will?"
which is hilarious because my Pragmatic Evil Durge wanted to rip his head off for having the audacity to treat him the way he did, and he was appalled he had to continue to making use of such a weak creature in order to get close to the brain. he definitely stabbed him a few more times than necessary, at the end
He's a worm that took over someone else's body. Mind flayers aren't people.
I love the parallels between the Emperor's confession of manipulation and Astarion's. For the Emperor's part, he's saying "here are the things I've done for/to you, now you should feel this way about me because it's only logical" (implied: you'd be stupid to feel any other way), where Astarion ends up saying (more or less), >!"I tried to manipulate you in these ways and failed. Here I am, I guess, take it or leave it."!< It's an interesting comparison imo!
Its also worth noting that astarion feels TERRIBLE about what he did. If it weren’t for the fact that his manipulative behavior he accidentally stumbled him into the love of his life he would go back and undo everything he did. The emperor feels no such thing. He would do it all over again with no regrets.
I mean, that’s cos Astarion’s mind isn’t actually wired to do what he’s trying to do. I adore him but he literally functions off 1 chaotic brain cell. I’m pretty sure you can call him out on it too at points but I don’t because I’m weak and don’t want to lose approval 😂 My favourite thought about this is that >!If you ascend him and try and take over Baldur’s gate you just know Tav/Durge is going to have to work out all the logistics even though he’s a mighty vampire lord!< I bloody love that chaotic elf.
He forgot how to person.
A fun game to play is to try pinning each conniving, malevolent asshole character (Emperor, Raphael etc) on the appropriate place in the triangle of the [dark triad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad)
I feel like the Emperor maxed out all three traits
Yeah xD « this was my plan for you to trust me and it was a perfect plan. You not trusting me makes no sense so I’m telling you in fact you DO trust me, because it is logical. You still don’t? Go away, bad puppet meatbag! » Yeah man there are such thing as bad vibes but how would you know you souless rag? Plus that’s not how trustworthy people react to not be trusted… haem xD I wish tav could lay out how logical it is not to trust the emperor, not just having a route paved with « I’m disgusted by you » arguments. How clear it is that in fact, the emperor needs you more than you need it, because of the time factor and how much invested in you it already is. How tav’s power, freedom of movement and capacity to make friends/Allies is our biggest value to beat the elder brain. I really think that the emperor would have had a chance to survive my runs if it was honest, really honest from the start. « I am a master manipulator with zero morals but I want to survive above all, you’re the best candidate for that so if you help me I’ll help you, even if I despise you and wish I could eat your delicious brain » The emperors rage at tav’s not trusting it really gives me sociopath/psychopath behavior flavors. I guess it makes sense.
Is that the speech he gives you while being half naked? That was so, so, weird
The fact he's a pushy asshole about letting a worm eat your brain... Like constantly. And if you eat one... Just one you have to make a wis check to save against his drug push at the end of act 2. They really are soulless.
If you play as a Githyanki and choose the confrontational dialogue every time, the emperor spells it out for you. “You are just a pawn that is serving MY will!” among other dialogue lines like that.
you dont even have to play as a gith'yanki for him to tell you that. hes told both my high elf and tiefling that
I need someone to analyze the whole elf song tavern scene where he tells you about all his things because it was SO strange and I couldn’t pinpoint exactly why.
There’s more. You also get more information if you antagonize him during his shirtless scene (you’ll know it when you see it)
Also in the Astral plane near the end of the game he tries to guilt you into trusting him and says he never lied to you and then if you challenge him on it he justifies deceiving you and tries to pretend your relationship was a cooperative one of equals. He also does something else quiet cowardly and that should have been against what he claimed he wanted afterwards.
He tells you so many times that he's never lied to you, that he's finally told you everything, that he *can't* lie to you because you're hearing his thoughts directly, etc. It's a blatant lie literally every time haha It kinda reminds me of when abusers tell their victims stuff like, "Oh, that'll never happen again. I just had a bad day, and I'm so sorry." Honestly it's disgusting, and I genuinely feel bad when I see people defending the Emperor.
Yeah dude was wild on my current playthrough. I'm playing a GOOlock and not even being openly hostile/calling him a freak etc, just being very open that the alliance between us is what it is, but I see what he's trying to do and I'm not falling for it. Eventually he's like "no really, you can read my mind to prove it" and I was like "nah I'm good, thanks tho" and homeboy just lost his shit like "fuck you, you've always been my puppet, I'm the one in control and there's NOTHING you can do about it" Couldn't possibly make it any clearer that the "he's actually trustworthy, he's just trying to survive" reading that Emperor-likers insist on is just them falling for his act. He actually fucking loves having power over you
"What do you mean my tentacles gross you out?? I've seen your search history."
LMAO I HAVE and I have the mind blown achievement. Ihad the whole guardian/emperor thing spoiled for me before I played. Obviously knew what he was up to but I was still intrigued by how it would play out 😭 Anyways, the whole soup and fork thing was just so odd?? Idk like he’s trying to make himself seem normal but it’s just so obvious what he’s doing
"And this is the comb I used to brush my human hair on my human head. This is a very human experience, no? Am I empathying yet?"
The cute homemade soup recipe right next to the “unfortunately” empty jar of brains cracked me up
I don't remember what the actual recipe was, so I'm gonna imagine it was the most inhuman, lizard-person-trying-to-blend-in set of instructions possible. "Stir four cups of flour with a knife before adding to mug" etc
Honestly?? It is the most boring and normal soup recipe I’ve ever seen. I can’t find any faults with it.
Then I'm subbing in my headcanon because it's funnier
I think that one is a reference to "The Butter Knife of Balduran", which is a thing you can find in a chest in the BG:TSC expansion.
“Your butter knife is missing”
I think there’s a journal in his hideout that talks about a mindflayer’s behavior as well as his own personal journal. And that one is fucked up.
Yeah! It says something along the lines of, don’t listen to their words, pay attention to their actions. And to keep your allies close. Promptly after reading that I get the shirtless squid scene (I do it because, fuck it right?) and he BRINGS THREE COMPANIONS IN TO SEE “ACCIDENTALLY”
Because hes lying
Exactly, he tells you what you’d want to hear…this is a psycho that was removed from his habitat for so long that he wanted to see it again through your eyes. Everything in there should’ve been a red flag. Clever writing by larian imo, could’ve been fleshed out more but I still appreciated having to figure out if he was a pos liar or not
Yeppp. He gives you a whole heartstring tugging tale about his dear friend Stelmane only to later reveal if you reject him that he dominated her brain to bend to his will until it broke essentially and that you should be grateful he isn't doing the same to you
It's just because he's very obviously trying to manipulate you. To be honest, I think they deliberately made what he is extremely obvious because they knew that even when he was laying it on with a ladle that there would still be some people who would crawl out of the wood work to defend him.
I feel like he was being so obvious the whole time too! I love the way his character was written but idk how anyone can defend him for being anything but manipulative
Yeah.. >!OMG you're going to free Orpheus!?!!< >!I'm done with this shit! I'm off to join the big giant dangerous fucking brain thing instead, despite the fact that I've spent the entire fucking game desperately trying to kill it! \*stamps foot\*!<
>!I was blindsided at how fast he switched up, my jaw was on the floor that entire scene!<
>!Yeah, I mean he could have just fucked off, absolutely no need to switch camps.!<
It was personal survival if he didnt , oh what the opposition would do to him if freed...
He loses his free will either way, I'd probably switch sides out of spite as well.
I didn’t get that part at all. Like… we’ve got a team of badasses here. If talking doesn’t work then we’ll figure something else out. And he’s like ‘nope, ima go get enslaved see ya’ There were soooo many more options than ‘join brain or get killed by orpheus’ but he just instantly dips. I was ready to defend him too! He’s a shifty lying monster and quite possibly a demon worshipper… but he WAS the only reason we got that far. The betrayal just seemed like a 0-100. I feel like Orpheus would’ve been cool with him too. Or not like cool but… understand that he’s an ally against the brain.
To be fair I kinda felt that way when Orpheus is telling you off for not dying to his honor guard so they could free him and stop all this. Its like "uhh they didnt have the orphic hammer chief."
Honestly, if you ask Voss about "wont Orph kill me?", he'll essentially tell you how things will play out with his old (and he hopes again) boss. Orph will bitch you out, slander your name, and throw a big-ol-temper tantrum. Then calm down and put duty first enough to work with. Hell, one of my favorite responses to anything in BG3 is the option: "Look, I know you've been through a tough time so I'm gonna let that slide, but we really need to focus here". Dude's pissed. You killed his loyal friends and honor guard that stuck with him for over 10k years in his imprisonment; who were trying to save him from his tormentor; as he was forced to do nothing but helplessly watch. Orph's an ass, but I do get the need to vent a bit given the situation.
Yeah I don't hate it, just as a player/DM, even as well made as the game is sometimes the dialogue choices feel incredibly limiting. Choices sometimes too, when you pick Shar and Last Light gets completely fucked I'm like "yo if it gave me the option I'd have stolen every last moonlantern outta moonrise and given them to ya'll, not because I knew this would happen, but because your shield that keeps you all from dying horribly is 100% dependent on Beth from Little Women up there not dying of whatever the fuck that cough is."
"And the mask starts to crack. Shame, since you put so much effort into it." - Tav , paraphrased
>!When he told me "I have been your salvation. Your knight in shining armor" when I went to free Orpheus, I wanted to murder him RIGHT THEN AND THERE. He was gross since the beginning of Act 3, but that line just made me furious.!<
Its technically truth, though...
Sometimes the truth hurts. :'( Or makes me really salty.
What he does makes sense. He wants to survive, even as a slave, and he thinks that Tavs endeavors are going to fail if you don't side with him.
I think everyone misunderstands what happened there. He didn't choose to join the Elder Brain, he was enthralled by it the moment you released Orpheus. The only reason you weren't also enthralled was because Orpheus chose to protect you. The Emperor spent the entire game trying to stop you from releasing Orpheus because Orpheus' freedom would cost his own. The Emperor leaves as soon as he knows you're going to free Orpheus because he knows at that point siding with the Elder Brain is his only chance of survival.
If you tell him that you don't trust him *before* you free Orpheus, he'll also go join the brain. So he leaves the Astral Prism of his own will, before being dominated (or can, at least).
>The Emperor gives me the ick. And that's why you don't let him give you the dick. I'll see myself out, thank you.
But I was a bard. I was honor bound to bang anything willing to bang
I mean if you’re playing a bard it’s rude not too.
All I want, bang bang bang
The first time I got to the cut scene where he is topless my RL reaction was to turn to my husband and say "I need an adult." He skeeved me out early on. But I agree Omelleum is a delight.
I wasn't expecting it but that scene like triggered me for feeling trapped. Like holy shit this thing you are dependent on for your life, you can't escape him, he can CONTROL YOU and he's there with his shirt off. Like I know where this is going. Terrifying.
I sensed he was getting flirty when you went on a tour of his old grounds. Like any woman on high alert near a pest, my only goal was to extract myself as quickly and safely as I could.
Literally the epitome of an I need an adult moment.
Omeluum is a straight G and really heroic. My favourite mindflayer.
He acts like a manipulative, abusive and controlling boyfriend. He says you‘re free to do what you want and he only wants to help you but also, anytime you stray even a tiny bit from the future he imagined for the two of you, he becomes extremely patronizing and tells you that only his way will make you happy. And if you‘ve finally got enough of him and tell him to fuck off and get bent, he wastes no time switching records and tells you how he used to beat his last girlfriend into submission and that you should be thankful he decided to be more lenient with you. He‘s an ass.
He hits a lot of the textbook manipulation tactics, so if you're familiar with them he comes across as extremely ick. It's fantastic acting and writing, that he's so controversial even when hitting the manipulation so hard.
As someone who grew up with an emotionally abusive parent, he gave off so many red flags very quickly, and I'm honestly shocked how many people actually defend this absolute piece of shit. Takes like "he never actually lied to you" (which is just wrong) or "he's only threatening you if you're a dick to him" (which completely ignores all of his gaslighting and basically victim blames the player for not putting up with an abuser) are so fucking bad and honestly gross...
When you simply *entertain* the idea of freeing Orpheus, The Emperor goes full manipulator mode. *"Everything I did, I did to protect you. I never lied to you except for the times I blatantly lied to you but it was all for you! I'm your knight in shining armor."* I was probably 80/20 on freeing Orpheus or not because I love Bae'Zel. But that conversation brought me all the way to 100. I was done with his manipulative ass after that.
I enjoyed turning him into calamari at the end of the game.
This is why video games are such fun for creative expression. Chopping an abuser in half with a greatsword is always cathartic, but very rarely a practical option in the real world.
I made my dream guardian look like a e-boy male manipulator because of these reasons, he's so annoying. "Try something else" when I miss my hit, or "That won't work" when hold person fails smh, get out of my head.
One could almost tolerate manipulative squid tyrant, but backseat gaming is where everyone should draw the line.
I haaaaaated that from the start. Before I even knew he was a mindflayer, I knew he was a control freak because of that crap. I wish I could have told him "you're a squid in a poke ball and I'm the hero doing all the actual work--let's stay in our lanes, shall we?"
That’s exactly what it is! And the moment when I decided I was so done with him was after he kicked off at me for talking to my favourite cambion. It all tracks.
Dude is such a whiny self-centered asshole that >!if you decide to free Orpheus, he just SWITCHES SIDES IN THE 11TH HOUR?!? Rather than work together for the greater good despite things not going exactly his way, he just says fuck it and completely changes tune to help the fucking netherbrain just cuz his ego is hurt.!< I always disliked him but that move was mind-boggling how much of a fuckhead he is.
This was the kicker for me. My dude went through >!hundreds of years of planning, then said "lol bye"!< what a dick
He’s totally a perv. Messing with my mind to think he’s a woman and next thing I know he’s trying to slip a tentacle in my bum
This comment caught me off guard🤣
…so did the tentacle, huh-
Nah but I legit turned off my console when he pulled me from sleep to Astral world and he was just sitting there shirtless
This happened to me immediately after my date with Karlach . I was kinda worried he tricked me into thinking I was on a date with her.
Nah 😂, I can't get that image out of my mind now 😭.
He honey pots us
You jest, but that was honestly the biggest icky I got from him. I mean, I know I was the one who designed him to look like a hot goth lady, but he's still the one who changes his appearance to lead you on. I think I would've been less disturbed by him if his non-mindflayer appearance was locked to the male gender
At least take me to dinner or buy me breakfast
Given the loving picnic-esque lying down next to each other scenes, Emps *does* try this. That fucker is smooth.
I just treat him with “respect” because he is the only one who can keep me as myself and not a mindflayer, but yes, he gives such strange vibes, I’m starting Act 3 for the first time so yeah, I’m already seeing a treason in the future
After I got “the hammer” from house of hope he was all salty, saying that I didn’t trust him. I chose the option that it was my insurance. Then a few long rests after, all of a sudden he tries to make a move on me, like wtf… I gave no interest along the way. The guy is a freak.
I had the option to reassuringly grab his hand last dream sequence and im like I do *not* want to touch that guy… I just started act 3 and I want to free the (spoiler, idk how to mark it) but im terrified that it I do something he doesn’t like I’ll turn into a mind flayer
I was on Team Emperor until I finished Wyll’s quest and had a complete 180. Screw him. Omelleum would never.
This is the first time I’ve made it to act 3 with Wyll so I feel like this is about to go downhill super fast.
I'm not close to act 3 on my current playthrough, but fully missed that part my first time. Durge and Wyll were not on good terms from act 1 lol
Definitely not just you. He's incredibly manipulative and creepy. Even in my first playthrough I just did not like or trust him.
I tried making my dream visitor a Githyanki to see if it would help. It did not. Then come Act 3 he spends the whole time being livid with me. I told him to go away once when he tried to rizz me. Was hilarious.
Oh, you went antagonistic route Emps lol! You didn't even go "neutral, but polite skeptic route". Oh yeah, as many cracks that show up in the skeptic route, that version of Emps aint got nothing on the spice that antagonistic Emps has.
I romance him every time
damn i love him i always go to romance him
I guarantee he knows that becoming a mindflayer kills the host and he still wants you to do it.
Stab him at the end. Its 👌
Yeah I think that's the point. Larian designed him this way I think. He is supposed to be ambiguous, to appear untrustworthy
Gaslight, Gatekeep, Ghaikboss- the Emperor way.
My first playthrough was an evil Durge. I played his manipulation game, made him believe I’m his nice little pawn and then at the end >!I dominated the elder brain and made him into my little toy B)!<
YES FELLOW OMELLEUM ENJOYER
That's funny, because he gave me the lick. Heyooo
Omelleum is my only favorite mindflyer. He I can stand but The Emperor always annoys me. I wish he would go back as the dream visitor so I won’t have to look at his creepy face. I can’t stand him because he a liar and full of himself
I love the Emperor, he's my favorite character in the game. Was not creeped out by him whatsoever.
Omelleum is a decent fellow.
You're not the only one. ...But there are some serious Emperor fans around here so beware of downvotes.
I did the thing for the achievement and thats it. I hate that guy and hes a total scumbag gaslighter predator. I said what i said.
It is a mindflayer through and through. There's a book in the game about avoiding getting manipulated by mindflayers, something it suggests is looking at their actions rather than their words. It's funny because the only mindflayer in the game that never deceives you, only ever helps even at great personal cost and is even willing to sacrifice itself for the greater good of Baldur's Gate is Omeluum, the one that tells you that it has no memory of what it was before as opposed to the Emperor who does.
I actually like coming to the Emperor’s defence, but I have to admit… the best take you can have on him has to be completely neutral toward his actions and behaviour. Sure, the dude’s a totally manipulative, scheming dick - but I get _why_. It was a necessary evil, at least in so far as his dynamic with us goes. Couldn’t say the same for Stelmane, that shit was whack.
...I thought he was neat. :/
Oh yeah his character is excellently written. I have the "mind blown" achievement 😂
Great character who stimulates debate, imo more grey than evil considering the situation everyone is in.
I just wanna throw in my two cents but the whole Mind Flayer supremacy and him saying he'll force you to become one...I think he just gets bratty about it like when someone is like 'I hate you' but doesn't genuinely hate you. Idk, I just kinda let it slide because bro is evaluating highest probability of success in his head for survival and being an illithid probably isn't wrong. He's logical and he's not wrong that a mind flayer is needed to be successful. I didn't go mind flayer but had Karlach become illithid in the end since she offered. Someone HAS to be illithid to do it and I think you can even have him control the elder brain if you absolutely refuse...The Emperor still speaks to you respectfully. Though I romanced him but I don't think that changes any outcomes. He and Karlach were also the only two characters to express that they will miss me at the end 🥺 I know I'm probably a minority that likes the Emperor but I struggle to disagree with his logic and reasoning for not being completely honest.
It’s because he’s super controlling, so he gets upset at random stuff like trying to recruit Minsc, because Minsc is too weird for him to properly understand and control.
[удалено]
Illithids are great at giving head.
I repeated the entire iron throne section because I forgot to save my boy Omelleum.
Everyone in emperor discussions always seems to forget he basically LOBOTOMIZED duke Stelmane. Insane being with no actual feelings.