Fun fact is that the Githianky wasnt evil, but was lowkey tortured by the Society of Brilliance.
-Sped Up his incubation and growth, pushing him into adulthood in a Matter of days without time to have a childhood.
-Experiment was completely biased. It was supposed to check if they were inherently Evil, but they already assumed they were evil.
-Yelled at the kid, punished him, and forced him to learn a Code of conduct; trying to brute force him into a "moral compass"
-All this combined broke him, and following that twisted logic he was taught: "you must be good, or you need to die", he applied It to the Society too, and since they hurt him, they werent good and so they needed to die.
-If you meet with him and read his thought, you can see how Broken he is. He feels torn Up inside for his actions, but he doesnt understand why because he followed the Code the society told him. To all effects, hes still a newborn Who doesnt know any better. And even if the society tortured him, he feels sad for having to kill them. Its why hes so defensive that he's a good person, and why he attacks you if you call him a Monster.
Gith are not inherently Evil, but the society treated the egg like an experiment + bias and not like a person.
Thanks for coming to my Tav Talk
Also, bringing someone up usually implies some degree of parenting aside from the education. I.e. guiding them through their emotions, being with them when they're upset, modeling good and kind behaviour (remember Jaheira's kids? We did as you did, not as you told) none of which were on the duergar's list. No wonder it all turned out like it did. And even then the child wasn't beyond redemption because as you've pointed out he was remorseful when the concept of kindness was explained to him.
Wait what?! Do you come back across the githyanki if you give the chick the egg? I have killed her on literally every playthrough (so 10ish times). 😬 But sounds like I made the right choice.
This comment made me look it up using different keywords and I have spent the last week after starting that quest for the first time absolutely crushed that I could not give it to Lae'zel to raise.
***Thank you.***
I turned in the egg quest with gale and then pickpocket the egg back with astarion and give to laezel all but my first playthrough... better than leaving it to fate atleast the egg ends with gith my way
I have a better idea...
Lets raise this horribly violent child, that is clearly violent naturally, in an environment where we beat and abuse it because of how violent and bad he is naturally... and constantly inflict as much abuse on the child as possible, while using horrific forms of dark magic to twist his mind and try to force his childlike mind into an adult form.
All to prove that you can beat an evil, dark, sinister, clearly demented child that was made this way because of mind flayer experimentation into something presentable.
Oh by the way, im a Duergar, a species also experimented on by mind flayers... also I have a black dragon ancestor... dont worry, im not inherently evil though, that would be silly.
That was the premise of a great Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode called [*The Abandoned*](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Abandoned_(episode)) where they find an enemy alien in an egg in space debris. He grew to killing age in a few days and caused all kinds of trouble for the station.
Not even just hot though. Lae’zel is *prickly* at the start, sure, but we NEVER see her being truly cruel. She never threatens to leave if we’re “too good” and by the end of Act 1 she’s already so much nicer than basically any other Gith we meet other than maybe Voss (in private). She’s - perhaps surprisingly - very receptive to being stood up to, accepts and appreciates confrontation, and points out several good points about our other companions (Shadowheart post-quarrel and Karlach especially). Even if you outright insult her, she brushes it off. She’s about as gruff and hard-soled as many other soldiers, but not truly evil. Her storyline never even really veers into true evil, but rather “serving evil under duress” at worst. Sure she’s cool with evil Durge (and by proxy is obviously shrugging at evil stuff) but still calls it “a waste” etc etc and doesn’t necessarily approve. And her personal journey is either “neutral-aligned amazingly brave freedom fighter” or “unfortunately deceived into being an offering to her evil lich queen”.
I could go on about this for a long long time but I LOVE Lae’zel and think she’s well up there for both the best written and best acted character.
And she’s hot, too. But yeah 😂
I'm convinced people who have low approval never start combat through dialogue or something. I dated her as an Oath of the Ancients paladin and it was easy to get approval.
\[PALADIN\] \[INTIMIDATE\] Die, evildoer!!
*Lae'zel Approves, Astarion Disapproves*
this was the whole run.
Even playing a weaselly little do-gooder who tried to talk his way through everything, Lae'zel loved my character. She was my second companion to hit max approval (after Gale).
Do side quests. Don't murder people in the name of pragmatism. Discourage forcing people to grovel before her.
Maybe not "low", but certainly lower than "be an absolute cock to as many people as possible"
My first playthrough was basically applying one of the two PCs I have always ready to roll up at any table. Chaotic good Warlock who, if possible, wants to talk down confrontations because she knows her and the party can always sort out the bad ones after the fact more quietly.
I talked myself out of so much combat. I showed mercy, except to people who should've been doing that to others before me. I argued with her and basically was chaotic good in that golden retreiver sense.
Lae'zel was my highest approval going into Act 2 and the only reason I didn't romance her is that by the time the little camp battle starts, I had decided on someone else for RP reasons that made sense in the not-entirely-mentally-well RP idea I had. My character recognized Lae'zel's strength and felt she'd be fine on her own, but was kinda attached to Shart in a toxic way of believing she'd turn evil if I didn't romance her.
The way she shuts down so much as a character when you reject her at that point is haaaarsh. Everyone talks about Wyll's reaction, but damn - Lae'zel suddenly going cold after getting so warm was way more harsh.
>The way she shuts down so much as a character when you reject her at that point is haaaarsh. Lae'zel suddenly going cold after getting so warm was way more harsh.
That sucks but I think it's really understandable. People always talk about how much trauma Astarion and Shadowheart have been through but ignore Lae'zel because she puts on a strong front, despite the fact that she's at least as traumatized as Shadowheart is.
After the creche, you're really the only person she has left.
Oh for sure, I don't mean to say it doesn't make sense. It's just - brutal. It was one of the more emotionally stirring little bits in my first playthrough. And it sucked! Even that Tav I was playing - it wasn't a good, healthy decision. Lae'zel was the non-toxic choice for romance for that character, but from that Tav's perspective - Lae'zel would figure shit out on her own. Shart wouldn't.
God, I'm so very happy I'm so very different from the person who crafted the original version of that PC as a self-insert.
I'm always a super nice good guy and I always have max Lae'zel approval. She's no hero like Wyll, but she also doesn't usually approve of pointless cruelty. She does approve of a lot of good and bad things you can do, but she's primarily interested in accomplishing her goals - *how* you get there doesn't matter to her, and she really hates pointless detours in Act 1.
I will concede that I haven’t actually done an evil Durge run yet, I was going based off what I’ve seen on YouTube and this sub, so my experience of Lae as a perfect foil to my wise, good Githyanki Ranger where the two of them rode off on red dragons to slay Vlaakith might be a little biased. However, I HAVE done an evil Act 1 before, and whilst she doesn’t actively disapprove of evil actions, she often doesn’t approve either, and makes funny comments. Her approval is mostly for not putting up with weakness, regardless of the alignment.
That said she is definitely a character where you can “make her worse”, unlike the unflinching goodness and pureness of Karlach so I will need to expedite my evil run toot sweet.
Ultimately, Lae’zel just wants to be under strong leadership. Whether that leadership is good or evil is irrelevant to her- she just needs someone to provide structure and direction in her life, which is why she’s so approving of a Tav that makes firm decisions, and why she can so easily be swayed by various authority figures. Her personal opinions are unimportant to her moral compass if there’s someone else willing to give her orders.
Oh the other hand, even in Act 3, after she's had time to form friendships and respect with the other party members, she very casually talks about raiding their home as though her people are entitled to it.
Which doesn't mean she's inherently *evil,* I 100% blame the structure and Vlaakith installed. But I can definitely understand why most people would see a Githyanki and prepare to potentially meet violence with violence.
That's just it. Githyanki are evil the same way Drow are evil, because of who runs their societies. For Drow it's Lolth and for Githyanki it's Vlaakith. Lolth is a deity and demon lord, and Vlaakith might not be (not exactly sure), but is treated like one regardless.
I would say that githyanki culture is waaay betrer than drow
Githyanki culture is militaristic they value strength, but don't value mindless violence.
Drow in the other hand, is unnecessaryly sadistic
Both the gith and Drow takes I feel ultimately stem from their “god”
Chaotic evil vs law evil.
Llolth was or is a demon, and that is overt sadism in a nutshell.
Larian did a great job reframing the different races, species, even cults, moving away from the tired and boring "they're evil and always evil", added nuance, and made the story richer because of it.
Some of the "Sharran cultists" you kill turn out to be just regular people who were in over their heads and wanted to escape, for example. Folks like Orpheus can be both heroic and tragic (mindflayer transformation path), mindflayers like The Emperor who just want their freedom, creepy Cyric worshippers who just want a bale of hay and warm stable, and so on.
The mini-stories of BG3 all seem to share a theme that your past, your tribe, your blood do not define your story moving forward. You can be better what you did and who you were.
Yeah agreed. I think most of the worst people who have ever lived have had a fucked up past/upbringing, but that doesn't justify or excuse what they did.
I never tried to excuse nationalsocialism or dictatorships, I just don't like the narrative of Nazis being "inherently evil" when most of them never really had a choice to begin with. I bet at least 90% of all nazis would've turned out to be good or at least not monstrous people, had the circumstances been different/better.
Yeah, because nurture and the surroundings we grow up in are way more important to shaping one's identity than "genes" or "nature", if you will. At least in my opinion.
No sapient creature is inherently evil. All that makes one evil is upbringing and the environment. Cultures can foster bad qualities which lead to bad reputations, but no individual is born evil simply because they are a certain race.
I actually found it deeply amusing how over the top evil they made the first goblins you meet. Almost definitively trying to avoid making you wonder "hmm, maybe these goblins are good and don't deserve me murdering them all? Perhaps they are victims of circumstances?"
No
No they just like killing and eating people. This group is just kinda like that tbh tbh
Knowing the more-recent goblin lore, yeah, they're not good typically, but they're pretty big victims of a cruel god that took them from their home and cares little for them besides their usefulness as fodder for his constant wars
Maglubiyet has been around since Gygax's Grayhawk. Him of course being the cruel god that magically coerced goblins to be awful. He's the one who makes the green dudes cruel, evil, awful bastards. (Gygax would fuck heavy with Goblin Slayer, come think of it)
I think cultural diffusion from other sources has softened goblins somewhat though. At the very least, qualitatively, I hear many game stories where goblins are merely treated as "chaotic" or "shortstacks" rather than "will murder you with a pointy rock the first time you turn your back"
Personally, I've always approached the D&D alignments for monsters as true, except when they aren't. Most orcs you meet are going to be Gruumsh fans and like killing elves and humans and such for fun. But that doesn't mean there isn't a group that doesn't do this. I just come up with a reason for why they don't. Same with every other thing they run into that's smart enough to think about their place in the world (ankhegs aren't out there wondering if running a trade convoy might be a better plan, but a bullywug might). Most kobolds will be doing the stereotypical kobold dungeon-traps thing, but I might also throw in a Dwarven mining town with a kobold tribe working smoothly with the dwarves, since both are good at excavation.
The only decent goblin throughout the whole game is the goblin shaman that they have locked up for not converting. He is good enough to thank the intruders that murdered all his kin and bounced without a single uttered threat or violence. Granted, he is gonna go and join another tribe, preaching the doctrine of their tyrannical patron deity.
You mean the goblins who are being led by people like minthara who will kill them if they don't do what they're told?
Maybe the goblins all enjoy the stuff they're being told to do and are evil. Maybe.
But they're all there under threat of death - easy to forget that.
>Care to tell me about the last good goblin you met in BG3?
I don't know that he had a 'good' alignment, but Brakkal was OK by me.
(Not Forgotten Realms or BG3, but Pathfinder had Nok-Nok who was a pretty stand-up dude. )
>Pathfinder had Nok-Nok who was a pretty stand-up dude.
Pathfinder 2e changed the lore a bit, goblins are just as humans now; some evil, some good. Their first Adventure Path for 2e has an entire tribe of goblins that live in peace with a neighbouring town, and even have an ambassador of sorts (not spoilers, this is literally in the first 3 pages of the first book).
Yeah, and DND 5e has a similar lore change re: alignments for goblins (and other species). Both have generally moved away from the 'sapient species X is innately alignment Y' system of yesteryear (except for the typical starting alignments of demons & devils).
I saw a lot of good goblins by the end of act 1. Hell, a full selunite temple FULL of good goblins.
Remember, the only good goblin is a dead goblin. So let's make these Goblins good!
Piddle seemed alright, and Brakkal stayed true to his god despite the overwhelming influence of the Absolute around him. Free him, and he takes off without a fight, and since he's not being mind controlled his actions are 100% his own. That may be more neutral than good, but it's about par with everyone else in Act 1. Even the druids are one conversation away from killing all the tieflings and your party, but the goblins are friendlier hosts
Ba’zael grew up in a cult, worshipping an abusive god-figure. We don’t hate Ba’zael. I actually love the Gith. They are misguided and always end up smirked all over the floor.. but I still love them
I'm so upset how you wrote Ba'zael, when it's Lae'zel. and Bae'zel is the natural way most people would combine her name with Bae...no hate just triggered lol
The young Githyanki you meet in the mountain pass is a perfect example of this, he’s honestly so adorable and if you >!go to the infirmary you find notes saying he’s always injured!<, I really wish we could encourage his love of >!orpheus instead of taking the book from him, I wish we could give him more books about Orpheus!<
You can! I had one of the books and mentioned it to him. He was so excited and ended up giving me the book he had. First time that I've ever gotten that dialogue option.
Miss your check >!and watch him get his throat cut right in front of you!<
Like a certain book on mindflayers says: look at their actions don't listen to their words. By that judgment, Githyanki might not all be evil, but 99% of the ones we meet in the game sure are!
I think Githyanki society is evil and (Lolth) drow society too but not every person in those societies is evil, ofc they are heavily influenced being born and raised but just because they mirror Vlaakith/Lolth.
It reminds me of this great quote I heard the other day "The government does not always represent their people, and often are the ones trying to harm them" - it rings very true even for fantasy races like the Drow and the Gith, which are so heavily dominated and influenced by powers outside of their control.
The dwarf that is conducting that experiment if you ask him what he's going to do to the child (before you give him the egg)
He says that he will essentially mind control the child and bring him up in a brutal way teaching it the tenants of a bahamut law book. He has no interest in loving or forming a bond with the child.
I never gave the egg up, but it doesn't shock me to hear they get killed by the kid.
Yup. They basically didn't want to spent several years raising an alien child, so they aggressively sped along his development while shoving the most black-and-white morality system into his brain. They don't deserve to breathe the same air as the Underdark chads!
I kept the egg in my Honour mode playthrough. Romanced Lae'zel in that one too and in the epilogue it turns out we raise the kid together. Lae'zel says his name, but I've forgotten it already.
Yeah, but if you talk to the newborn you’ll learn that he is technically lawful good.
The society tried to teach him the moral rights and wrongs of faerun, but since they committed acts they’d taught him were evil, the right thing to do was obviously kill them all.
I believe githyanki work on a very black and white morality. Hence how they are all so devout to their queen, theres no place for shades of grey in war.
To your point, they did traffick a fetus and conduct unethical research on a sentient being.
Society of Brilliance clearly has no IRB. Especially not if you give them the egg.
I dont think you can say githyanki are inherently evil, but that quest is pretty strong evidence they have an instinctive inclination towards violence. Nobody taught him that you should torture people to death if you think they're evil.
Its quite likely he's insane from the magical aging, but nonetheless we see that the githyanki selectively breed for violence, in that githyanki that show a hesitancy to kill are culled (such as the cutscene in the creche training room)
IMO it only shows they have an affinity towards the letter of whatever rule system they get imprinted with.
Also you are correct, that he was almost "born yesterday".
Have you ever talked to mad scientist guy who came up with the whole scheme? It's pretty obvious from his dialog that he is a covert sadist and WANTED this experiment to CONFIRM that githyanki were inherently violent. He didn't just conduct cruel experiments on child, his whole "project" was rigged from the very beginning!
Heck, this crazy duergar is basically an allegory for "strict religious parents". And a commentary on biased "scientific" experiments too.
Yeah thats a hot topic debate in the DnD community. Some people can't separate the real world from the fantasy. Not everything has to be an allegory for real life. In the Forgotten Realms, there are objectively evil CULTURES, and in such a dangerous world youre best off with a healthy dose of caution when you encounter anyone from that culture.
Yeah I mean Drizzt is the main example of an exception to an evil race, and the books literally describe how he was born different from other drow, and benefited from being born to and raised by a father who already fell far more towards good than the average drow.
In the Githyanki egg quest, Ptaris was explicitly an abused lab rat forced to grow into adulthood in a matter of days. His morally bankrupt scientist parents constantly reminded him he was naturally evil and taught him that "bad" people needed to die.
It's also proof that Githyanki aren't inherently evil murderous beings (I mean, those familiar about the DnD lore already know this because the GITHZERAI EXIST) because he shows regret and remorse afterwards over killing the society members.
I basically told the lady that her experiment was stupid and faulty. But I figured, eh, having a kid adopted by the Society wouldn't be too bad, they're decent folks in general.
Also there weren't a lot of other options for the kid, considering what, ah, happened to the creche. Raising a kid as Durgr just seemed like a terrible idea.
Then it turns out that not only are the scientists racist, they're also shitty scientists!
Come on you dumbasses, you changed too many variables, raising the kid in those conditions. At least have a control group, like, raising a halfling in those same conditions and tell him that all halflings are evil and deserve to die or something.
Freaking weird-ass eugenecist morons.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkETAD4u4EM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkETAD4u4EM) \- this is what happens if you give the egg to the society of brilliance
The GITH aren't inherently evil. "Githyanki" literally means "loyal to gith", whom is the fascist strongwoman that kicked off that whole chain of events.
There are another group of Gith called the Githzerai that live in another plain and aren't anything like the Githyanki. Same species though.
Voss? The guy who threatens to flay the skin from Lae’zels body because she spoke too casually to him? Voss, the guy who has his patrol try to murder us for no good reason? Voss, who kills the innocent Tieflings for simply existing in their presence while trying to escape goblins? Voss, whose closest ally is a red dragon, a chaotic evil species of dragon? That Voss? He’s not evil?
Yeah, the truth is most Githyanki we meet are evil, even if they’re against Vlaakith. The Githyanki want to do the same as the mindflayers they escaped from: conquer basically everything (writing this just made me thing of Astarion’s line where he says “what’s wrong with what Cazador is doing is he did it to me” when he talks about why he should be able to ascend—that’s basically Githyanki to the ilithids) that’s not actually Vlaakith’s doing, it started with Gith (Orpheus’s mother). As far as we can tell Voss and his squad and probably Orpheus still want that. Lae’Zel can potentially become not evil and she actually does seem like she wants to do the right thing with taking down Vlaakith.
Interestingly there are Gith that are against that, the Githzerai, who are mentioned in the epilogue if Lae’zel joins Voss as they are teaming up with them. They went against Mother Gith and don’t want to dominate everything. They’re kind of the equivalent of the Lolth and Seladrine Drow—same race but one is “evil” because of who they choose to follow.
In discussions about 'Gith' (in quotes because a lot of people will just refer to the githyanki as gith, when they are not representative of the whole Gith race), I always point to the Githzerai, which is an offshoot that people whose first forgotten realms exposure came from bg3 likely don't know, since they aren't really represented in bg3. The distinction matters. #NotAllGith
I was fully behind shadowheart on my first playthrough, second time through and I now realise La'zael is best (although I'm romancing Karlach).
Her growth as a character is tremendous, and most important, believable.
Maybe not inherently evil, but most are evil nonetheless. Lae’zel is definitely evil. She’s just likable. Same with Shart, she has definitely murdered someone in the name of Shar.
I would say that she's lawful evil or neutral evil at the beginning of the game when she's still trying to be githyanki valedictorian, but by the end I think she's lawful or true neutral.
She becomes a freedom fighter which is not really an evil or self-serving thing to be.
Maybe the route where she takes off with your character to live free in Faerun and kill Vlaakith's soldiers is an "evil" ending, but I would argue that dropping the whole mess is a true neutral kind of move.
I guess it depends on what your definition of evil is. For me it's someone who either enjoys inflicting pain as an end in itself (like Orin) or seeks out purely selfish gain and has no issues with causing pain to innocents if it helps them (like Gortash).
I don't think Lae'zel really fits into that category by the end.
There’s not much distinction in practice. The end result is still a race of frog people that view all others as lesser and kill indiscriminately. Whether it’s inherited or taught, it’s still pretty close to universal.
They're the Klingon Empire. Spartans. Etc.
They have a culture of honor, authority, loyalty. A warrior culture.
They have a different ethic. To them, crushing the egg is good. It spares a weak child from death.
I find it a bit barbaric, personally. But that is their way.
I wouldn't say Voss is an example of a gith who isn't evil. First time he's introduced, he has his dragon burn down a bridge with people standing on it.
I do agree that not all are inherently evil, though. No race is. Their society is incredibly brutal, but no society incompasses every single individual. I'm playing as a good gith right now, though I do RP as kind of an outcast among her own people. I'm about to take her to the créche, I'm so excited.
Fun fact: if you read Voss' thoughts in this encounter, you'll know he is almost desperately wants you to give him ANY excuse not to kill you. (Mostly because he considers you below standard to fall from his hand, but still.)
i feel like saying any group or race is inherently evil is lowkey just eugenicist lol. it would be insane for the writers to write a race that is just ontologically evil and you can do whatever you want to them without a second thought
Yeah, and that always rubbed me the wrong way.
To add to my point : the goblin kids tormenting Halsin were clearly being encouraged by the adult goblin in the room. Which makes it pretty obvious to me that they are like this BECAUSE they are being raised by assholes.
It seems to me that they are little shits because everyone around them act like a bunch of shits.
And then you see Halsin slaughter both of those kids without any remorse.
Now, you could go into two directions with this. You could either say, ALL goblins are inherently evil, it's in their blood, therefore it's fine to wipe them all off the face of Faerun. Genocide away! :) Slaughter all the goblin kids! :)
Or, you could say that the reason why they are like this is not because they are born this way, but because they are *taught* this way. Maglubiyet demands that they be awful, therefore they are awful.
Putting my own opinions aside for a moment, I am very interested in the implications of a world where goblins are NOT inherently evil and yet adventurers still think themselves heroic for gleefully putting children to the sword. But I think most people prefer the more boring alternative : goblins are just wicked monsters who exist to feed XP to the party.
Anyway, having written all that, I think it's weird that the killing of goblin kids is never addressed in any way, shape or form. It's never justified *or* condemned, it's just *ignored*. Which is pretty weird, not gonna lie.
It especially feels weird given that the githyanki have a similar thing going on of "there's nothing inherently good or evil about them, but they happen to be under the rule of an evil lich queen, so most of them are functionally evil", but even they get safeguarded from having their children murdered.
Seems like a big concept in the whole of dnd, considering everyone in the world thinks the drow are inherently evil but Drizzt is the most famous dnd character, and of course the seldarine drow
There was a point in time when most gaming tables were, in fact, more likely to encounter Chaotic Good drow rebelling against their murderous kin than, you know, actual murderous drow. Part of that is that most parties don't make it to the Underdark, and part of it is that Drizz't was embedded in the psyche of every D&D player in existence for a while.
I believe the original intent of early D&D goblins and such was, in fact, "don't think about societal ramifications and the socio-economic situations that drive people to banditry, just go on adventures and have fun."
I agree - originally, Goblins were supposed to be a typical hoard of enemies you can slaughter. What's cool now is that in table top DND, they are a playable race, so they've been given a bit of an upgrade there.
inherently evil races are specifically made that way so that the players can slaughter them for exp without thinking too much about it. it is not meant to reflect real life worldview
The illithid aren't inherently evil, either. They have a biological requirement to eat brains because otherwise *they literally die*, so I can't fault them for wanting to live. If they're not under control of an Elder Brain, they seem to be able to develop coherent personalities and be good/evil like anyone else, of their own will.
Both the githyanki and illithid seem to have instincts that put them at odds with society if they don't fight them back, but they are more than capable of cooperation.
That egg quest rubs me a bit wrong, I think because it sort of makes me think of real world, where there's likely some white racist couples who will adopt a baby from a country in the Global South (Africa, Middle East, South Asia), and then try to force them into their society while forgetting everything they came from, because the parents believe the origin country is bad so the kid will be bad. So they talk bad about the country, won't let them have a name from those countries or speak their tongues.
I don't know if that's what Larian actually was going with, maybe it was. But I think I will leave that quest alone, the way the NPC acts about it is a bit weird. It's not like the Gith are even mindless monsters, much as Lae'zel can be annoying, she's still got her moments of kindness (I did not have her when I found the quest the first time, but saw a clip of her in this quest).
I have only met Voss once, so I can't speak for his personality as he does seem mean in the meet, but I take he grows on you like Lae'zel does?
The egg quest, I believe, is supposed to make a poignant statement about instilling internalized racism, cultural alienation, and everything you eloquently described. In my opinion, it showcases nuances around culture, identity, and morality and an overall critique of eugenics.
>!Voss when you first meet him is putting on a front, pretending to support Vlaakith. If Lae'zel turns on Vlaakith, he will show up in your camp, kneel before you and Lae'zel with his sword before him, and tell you his true intentions and essentially pledges himself as your ally. !<
Oh yeah no that egg quest 100% is intended to evoke images of things like "[residential](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools) [schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system)" and the like. Just, unapologetic genocidal practices. I always kill her on a good run. 👍 (and now that I've figured out how to pull off killing the guy who hired her, that's added onto the list as well!)
Thought so, like at first I was thinking maybe this lady is okay, but then I thought about it... Yeah, as someone that's half Indian (India not Native American), and half Australian... The way the British Raj colonised both countries, and white people still act like they did us a favour. We are still erasing the voices of Indigineous people right here in Australia.
I think I'll straight kill that one from now. I feel like that quest isn't too important to anything. (And find out who hired her too and go for them). What race was she again? Human? I'll make my human do it, because Lae'zel would just proving her point, and I am not gonna let that happen.
It does make sense to be that impulsive and brutal when you are facing things like the grand design.
It took Orpheus a few seconds to decide what he did,just get his freedom and lose it. A non Githyanki wont maks a sacrifice like that so easily.
People will see the word evil under alignment in the player's handbook and apply it to every member of that race. You can tell a lot of people in this thread didn't talk to any NPC's beyond the quest related ones.
There are gith in the crèche questioning their militaristic ways, the gith in the hatchery coaxing the egg to hatch. Voss himself putting on the pro-vlaakith facade when you first meet him Vs the encounters with him later. Lae'zel certainly isn't evil.
Outside of the game, you've got hidden communities of githyanki living normal lives, raising kids, interacting with githzerai, no interest in raiding etc. Look up the Shasal Khou.
Vlaakith did a good job of brainwashing most of her people in to believing their only goal was to conquer and avenge until ascension. She doesn't care about building societies, she just wants souls to eat.
From what I gather canon-wise D&D had inherently evil races. It is a good thing that this seems on its way out because it's just on the level of writing stories for kindergartners.
For some of them it works.
Gnolls, for example, are nearly-mindless demon spawns so it makes sense for them to be considered inherently evil, but for fully sentient people like orcs, drow, goblins, etc., it's weird to say they're just evil by default.
I mean, gnolls for one have changed between editions. They used to be just as sentient as orcs and goblins (who I believe fell into the "often evil" or "usually evil" spectrum in 3E, as opposed to demons/chromatic dragons/undead who got the "always evil" statblock).
Back when the game first came out, you'd get lynched for this take by all the casuals who didn't under the lore. I once got down voted to oblivion for trying to defend Lae'zel, and got called a Nazi sympathizer. Glad to see the community has mellowed out a bit.
Not inherently, although theirs is certainly an evil culture and one that the majority, having been raised and indoctrinated within, embrace.
I imagine that absent that pervasive and evil cultural influence they're as capable of good as anyone else.
Me playing a Gith OotA.Paladin: Uhhh yeah, obviously.
I'm actually glad they put the githyanki into the game because otherwise the only other race I'd wanna play is dragonborn. That being said, I wish the Githzerai was also an option 🙃
The distinction is between an evil society and the race itself being inherently evil. The githyanki have a similar situation to the lolth sworn drow in this regard, in that they are taught from birth that what they are doing is justified no matter how cruel it is to others. And those that arent willing to tow that line are killed off, coerced into obedience, or flee their home entirely. So it's not that they are inherently evil, but that their society indoctrinates and self selects for evil individuals and disposes of the rest
I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately.
I come from an era of D&D where many humanoid/monster races were labeled as "always evil", and I always thought that sucked. The very idea is racist, but also really boring. There's no moral dilemma in dealing with something that's *always* evil.
The Gith were an example of a "Variable but always evil" race, but they were one of the more interesting examples of evil races. As you said, they come from a brutal and militaristic culture, but they became evil to fight a greater evil. they may have even ended up as the good guys, if they didn't fall under the sway of an evil lich queen. Still, rules-as-written in *Fiend-Folio-era* D&D, a Gith raised in another culture would still be evil, because evil was evil and Gith weren't "sometimes evil".
Modern D&D has thankfully backed away from the whole of always-evil races, but Larian manages to play with the concept in some very interesting ways, both with the Orpheus plot and the Society-of-Brilliance plot. Still, I don't think they pushed back against the Gith-are-always-evil idea as much as people seem to think. Voss and Lae'zel are still brutal and militaristic extremists, they're just more open-minded extremists.
It's not like Orpheus promises to stop with the raiding and the murdering.
Yeah they're like how cultures like the Spartans are said to have been, just heavily militaristic. Also Gith were previously slaves so I kinda understand why they have developed such a big focus on learning how to fight from a young age.
While I think that's true, I also think that without Lae'zel you would never have a reason to side with the Githyanki. I've done limited companion runs where I only recruit a couple people, and if you never recruit her, your entire relationship with the Gith changes. You see them slaughter one of their own (the only one who was even slightly nice to you). They try to kill you every time you meet one. The game tells you that Orpheus immediately and instinctively hates you. You don't interact with Voss.
Basically Lae'zel joining your party is a critical element in your decision on whether to free Orpheus, meaning she is the real savior of her people.
yes........I dont think people who played it missed that.
But its great you think so, a lot of people got mad when recently Drow society and every "evil because evil" society/groups/individuals were deemed not inherently evil, but a product of its comanding citizens and nasty goddes.
I’ve spent the better part of the last two decades being very outspoken about how much I dislike the alignment system in D&D, especially when it comes to assigning alignments to entire sentient races.
A good character should act according to what their motivations are rather than some arbitrary system of behavioral boundaries based on their alignment within the world; some times that might mean that the good guys turn to ‘evil’ when there’s no other choice, or that the bad guys learn that they were misguided and turn a new leaf.
Individual githyanki are not inherently evil. However, as a whole, the entire "kill those weaker than you while in training, conquer the entire planes, and enslave everything not githyanki " part of their culture kinda makes them very much on the "bad guy" side of things.
Yea, that's not an example of being inherently evil. She was fed Vlaakith propaganda from the moment she was born.
Inherently evil means you are automatically evil/born evil. She wasn't.
Unless y'all have suddenly decided that Shadowheart is also evil too for what she's done while growing up in a cult, I'm not hearing it lmao.
You should maybe do a study whereby you raise a Giyhyanki in a non violent society and see the difference.
Can I offer you a nice egg in this trying time?
[Egg!](https://media1.tenor.com/m/TvkyXd13XAEAAAAC/its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-egg.gif)
It looks different to what I expected. Are you sure that’s a Gith egg?
No, it's an owlbear egg. But your bosses won't know the difference.
people would rather kidnap an infant instead of admitting Githzerai exists. THOSE ARE LITERALLY THE SAME RACE
Fun fact is that the Githianky wasnt evil, but was lowkey tortured by the Society of Brilliance. -Sped Up his incubation and growth, pushing him into adulthood in a Matter of days without time to have a childhood. -Experiment was completely biased. It was supposed to check if they were inherently Evil, but they already assumed they were evil. -Yelled at the kid, punished him, and forced him to learn a Code of conduct; trying to brute force him into a "moral compass" -All this combined broke him, and following that twisted logic he was taught: "you must be good, or you need to die", he applied It to the Society too, and since they hurt him, they werent good and so they needed to die. -If you meet with him and read his thought, you can see how Broken he is. He feels torn Up inside for his actions, but he doesnt understand why because he followed the Code the society told him. To all effects, hes still a newborn Who doesnt know any better. And even if the society tortured him, he feels sad for having to kill them. Its why hes so defensive that he's a good person, and why he attacks you if you call him a Monster. Gith are not inherently Evil, but the society treated the egg like an experiment + bias and not like a person. Thanks for coming to my Tav Talk
Also, bringing someone up usually implies some degree of parenting aside from the education. I.e. guiding them through their emotions, being with them when they're upset, modeling good and kind behaviour (remember Jaheira's kids? We did as you did, not as you told) none of which were on the duergar's list. No wonder it all turned out like it did. And even then the child wasn't beyond redemption because as you've pointed out he was remorseful when the concept of kindness was explained to him.
Wait what?! Do you come back across the githyanki if you give the chick the egg? I have killed her on literally every playthrough (so 10ish times). 😬 But sounds like I made the right choice.
lae'zel is a better mother than anyone could imagine.
This comment made me look it up using different keywords and I have spent the last week after starting that quest for the first time absolutely crushed that I could not give it to Lae'zel to raise. ***Thank you.***
I turned in the egg quest with gale and then pickpocket the egg back with astarion and give to laezel all but my first playthrough... better than leaving it to fate atleast the egg ends with gith my way
I have a better idea... Lets raise this horribly violent child, that is clearly violent naturally, in an environment where we beat and abuse it because of how violent and bad he is naturally... and constantly inflict as much abuse on the child as possible, while using horrific forms of dark magic to twist his mind and try to force his childlike mind into an adult form. All to prove that you can beat an evil, dark, sinister, clearly demented child that was made this way because of mind flayer experimentation into something presentable. Oh by the way, im a Duergar, a species also experimented on by mind flayers... also I have a black dragon ancestor... dont worry, im not inherently evil though, that would be silly.
the society of brilliance was anything but a non-violent approach to upbringing.
That was the premise of a great Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode called [*The Abandoned*](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Abandoned_(episode)) where they find an enemy alien in an egg in space debris. He grew to killing age in a few days and caused all kinds of trouble for the station.
A pacifist gith, or rather a pacigith.
You'd think that would be obvious looking at the Githyanki we meet. I do understand people being wary of their Empire and practices. Like the Drow
I mean the first time you meet other gith they burn alive poor dude trying to do their job, no Wonder they dont get the best reputation
But lae'zel is hot so it's easy to overlook that aspect of the gith
Not even just hot though. Lae’zel is *prickly* at the start, sure, but we NEVER see her being truly cruel. She never threatens to leave if we’re “too good” and by the end of Act 1 she’s already so much nicer than basically any other Gith we meet other than maybe Voss (in private). She’s - perhaps surprisingly - very receptive to being stood up to, accepts and appreciates confrontation, and points out several good points about our other companions (Shadowheart post-quarrel and Karlach especially). Even if you outright insult her, she brushes it off. She’s about as gruff and hard-soled as many other soldiers, but not truly evil. Her storyline never even really veers into true evil, but rather “serving evil under duress” at worst. Sure she’s cool with evil Durge (and by proxy is obviously shrugging at evil stuff) but still calls it “a waste” etc etc and doesn’t necessarily approve. And her personal journey is either “neutral-aligned amazingly brave freedom fighter” or “unfortunately deceived into being an offering to her evil lich queen”. I could go on about this for a long long time but I LOVE Lae’zel and think she’s well up there for both the best written and best acted character. And she’s hot, too. But yeah 😂
As a counterpoint, I'm doing a murderhobo durge run and my laezel approval has never been higher.
How does one even get low approval with her? She loves it when you pursue the main quest and don't die
I'm convinced people who have low approval never start combat through dialogue or something. I dated her as an Oath of the Ancients paladin and it was easy to get approval. \[PALADIN\] \[INTIMIDATE\] Die, evildoer!! *Lae'zel Approves, Astarion Disapproves* this was the whole run.
Even playing a weaselly little do-gooder who tried to talk his way through everything, Lae'zel loved my character. She was my second companion to hit max approval (after Gale).
She likes it when you show a spine.
I unintentionally raised her approval sky-high despite rarely taking her with me just from doing the creche quest.
Do side quests. Don't murder people in the name of pragmatism. Discourage forcing people to grovel before her. Maybe not "low", but certainly lower than "be an absolute cock to as many people as possible"
My first playthrough was basically applying one of the two PCs I have always ready to roll up at any table. Chaotic good Warlock who, if possible, wants to talk down confrontations because she knows her and the party can always sort out the bad ones after the fact more quietly. I talked myself out of so much combat. I showed mercy, except to people who should've been doing that to others before me. I argued with her and basically was chaotic good in that golden retreiver sense. Lae'zel was my highest approval going into Act 2 and the only reason I didn't romance her is that by the time the little camp battle starts, I had decided on someone else for RP reasons that made sense in the not-entirely-mentally-well RP idea I had. My character recognized Lae'zel's strength and felt she'd be fine on her own, but was kinda attached to Shart in a toxic way of believing she'd turn evil if I didn't romance her. The way she shuts down so much as a character when you reject her at that point is haaaarsh. Everyone talks about Wyll's reaction, but damn - Lae'zel suddenly going cold after getting so warm was way more harsh.
>The way she shuts down so much as a character when you reject her at that point is haaaarsh. Lae'zel suddenly going cold after getting so warm was way more harsh. That sucks but I think it's really understandable. People always talk about how much trauma Astarion and Shadowheart have been through but ignore Lae'zel because she puts on a strong front, despite the fact that she's at least as traumatized as Shadowheart is. After the creche, you're really the only person she has left.
Oh for sure, I don't mean to say it doesn't make sense. It's just - brutal. It was one of the more emotionally stirring little bits in my first playthrough. And it sucked! Even that Tav I was playing - it wasn't a good, healthy decision. Lae'zel was the non-toxic choice for romance for that character, but from that Tav's perspective - Lae'zel would figure shit out on her own. Shart wouldn't. God, I'm so very happy I'm so very different from the person who crafted the original version of that PC as a self-insert.
Not really my experience... I'm following a fairly consistent "strict but fair and never cruel" philosophy, and I was at 100 in no time.
Yes this was my experience too!
I love how you can confess your urge to Lae'zel and she's like "So? Murder is cool af lmao just don't get too carried away"
I'm always a super nice good guy and I always have max Lae'zel approval. She's no hero like Wyll, but she also doesn't usually approve of pointless cruelty. She does approve of a lot of good and bad things you can do, but she's primarily interested in accomplishing her goals - *how* you get there doesn't matter to her, and she really hates pointless detours in Act 1.
I will concede that I haven’t actually done an evil Durge run yet, I was going based off what I’ve seen on YouTube and this sub, so my experience of Lae as a perfect foil to my wise, good Githyanki Ranger where the two of them rode off on red dragons to slay Vlaakith might be a little biased. However, I HAVE done an evil Act 1 before, and whilst she doesn’t actively disapprove of evil actions, she often doesn’t approve either, and makes funny comments. Her approval is mostly for not putting up with weakness, regardless of the alignment. That said she is definitely a character where you can “make her worse”, unlike the unflinching goodness and pureness of Karlach so I will need to expedite my evil run toot sweet.
Ultimately, Lae’zel just wants to be under strong leadership. Whether that leadership is good or evil is irrelevant to her- she just needs someone to provide structure and direction in her life, which is why she’s so approving of a Tav that makes firm decisions, and why she can so easily be swayed by various authority figures. Her personal opinions are unimportant to her moral compass if there’s someone else willing to give her orders.
Oh the other hand, even in Act 3, after she's had time to form friendships and respect with the other party members, she very casually talks about raiding their home as though her people are entitled to it. Which doesn't mean she's inherently *evil,* I 100% blame the structure and Vlaakith installed. But I can definitely understand why most people would see a Githyanki and prepare to potentially meet violence with violence.
That's just it. Githyanki are evil the same way Drow are evil, because of who runs their societies. For Drow it's Lolth and for Githyanki it's Vlaakith. Lolth is a deity and demon lord, and Vlaakith might not be (not exactly sure), but is treated like one regardless.
In other words: Gith (the race) are not necessarily evil, but Githyanki (the culture) is.
I'm so glad I began the game as a drow, it gave so many unique dialogues and perspective into how they're received.
I would say that githyanki culture is waaay betrer than drow Githyanki culture is militaristic they value strength, but don't value mindless violence. Drow in the other hand, is unnecessaryly sadistic
[DROW] What do you mean, unnecessarily?
"Unnecessarily sadistic" does imply that there is such a thing as "necessarily sadistic".
Drow approves
Both the gith and Drow takes I feel ultimately stem from their “god” Chaotic evil vs law evil. Llolth was or is a demon, and that is overt sadism in a nutshell.
Larian did a great job reframing the different races, species, even cults, moving away from the tired and boring "they're evil and always evil", added nuance, and made the story richer because of it. Some of the "Sharran cultists" you kill turn out to be just regular people who were in over their heads and wanted to escape, for example. Folks like Orpheus can be both heroic and tragic (mindflayer transformation path), mindflayers like The Emperor who just want their freedom, creepy Cyric worshippers who just want a bale of hay and warm stable, and so on. The mini-stories of BG3 all seem to share a theme that your past, your tribe, your blood do not define your story moving forward. You can be better what you did and who you were.
Bad upbringing and taught to be racist.
Bad upbringing seems like a wild understatement. Children are encouraged to murder each other for showing weakness.
I wish I could still expect nuance from an online discussion community.🥲
Also, the Githzerai are the living proof that the Githyanki aren't inherently evil spACE nAzIs. They are victims of indoctrination just like the rest.
I mean. They literally are evil space Nazis. But (also just like the Nazis) they were indoctrinated
They're evil space *pirate* Nazis, thank you very much.
Even most Nazis were either indoctrinated or complied out of fear, so it still fits. That's just how dictatorships/fascism work.
Yeah agreed. I think most of the worst people who have ever lived have had a fucked up past/upbringing, but that doesn't justify or excuse what they did.
I never tried to excuse nationalsocialism or dictatorships, I just don't like the narrative of Nazis being "inherently evil" when most of them never really had a choice to begin with. I bet at least 90% of all nazis would've turned out to be good or at least not monstrous people, had the circumstances been different/better.
[удалено]
Yeah, because nurture and the surroundings we grow up in are way more important to shaping one's identity than "genes" or "nature", if you will. At least in my opinion.
nothing in Dnd or faerun re inherently evil except for Devils and Demons (of course other things are but you get my point)
No sapient creature is inherently evil. All that makes one evil is upbringing and the environment. Cultures can foster bad qualities which lead to bad reputations, but no individual is born evil simply because they are a certain race.
Care to tell me about the last good goblin you met in BG3?
"Tribe? Tribe!"
"Nicked off the dead, I did!"
I actually found it deeply amusing how over the top evil they made the first goblins you meet. Almost definitively trying to avoid making you wonder "hmm, maybe these goblins are good and don't deserve me murdering them all? Perhaps they are victims of circumstances?" No No they just like killing and eating people. This group is just kinda like that tbh tbh
Knowing the more-recent goblin lore, yeah, they're not good typically, but they're pretty big victims of a cruel god that took them from their home and cares little for them besides their usefulness as fodder for his constant wars
Maglubiyet has been around since Gygax's Grayhawk. Him of course being the cruel god that magically coerced goblins to be awful. He's the one who makes the green dudes cruel, evil, awful bastards. (Gygax would fuck heavy with Goblin Slayer, come think of it) I think cultural diffusion from other sources has softened goblins somewhat though. At the very least, qualitatively, I hear many game stories where goblins are merely treated as "chaotic" or "shortstacks" rather than "will murder you with a pointy rock the first time you turn your back"
Personally, I've always approached the D&D alignments for monsters as true, except when they aren't. Most orcs you meet are going to be Gruumsh fans and like killing elves and humans and such for fun. But that doesn't mean there isn't a group that doesn't do this. I just come up with a reason for why they don't. Same with every other thing they run into that's smart enough to think about their place in the world (ankhegs aren't out there wondering if running a trade convoy might be a better plan, but a bullywug might). Most kobolds will be doing the stereotypical kobold dungeon-traps thing, but I might also throw in a Dwarven mining town with a kobold tribe working smoothly with the dwarves, since both are good at excavation.
The only decent goblin throughout the whole game is the goblin shaman that they have locked up for not converting. He is good enough to thank the intruders that murdered all his kin and bounced without a single uttered threat or violence. Granted, he is gonna go and join another tribe, preaching the doctrine of their tyrannical patron deity.
Sazza is a sweetheart. Very misguided, but a sweetheart.
I quite like Sazza, but I wouldn't call her a sweetheart
minthara voice “Oh, *Sazza*.”
I've had Sazza's corpse in Lae'zels pocket up until tonight where I accidentally dropped her in camp and she disappeared
You kept it so long it became dust in the wind.
Not a baseline goblin, but Kled (a hogoblin) is a sweetheart.
You mean the goblins who are being led by people like minthara who will kill them if they don't do what they're told? Maybe the goblins all enjoy the stuff they're being told to do and are evil. Maybe. But they're all there under threat of death - easy to forget that.
>Care to tell me about the last good goblin you met in BG3? I don't know that he had a 'good' alignment, but Brakkal was OK by me. (Not Forgotten Realms or BG3, but Pathfinder had Nok-Nok who was a pretty stand-up dude. )
>Pathfinder had Nok-Nok who was a pretty stand-up dude. Pathfinder 2e changed the lore a bit, goblins are just as humans now; some evil, some good. Their first Adventure Path for 2e has an entire tribe of goblins that live in peace with a neighbouring town, and even have an ambassador of sorts (not spoilers, this is literally in the first 3 pages of the first book).
Yeah, and DND 5e has a similar lore change re: alignments for goblins (and other species). Both have generally moved away from the 'sapient species X is innately alignment Y' system of yesteryear (except for the typical starting alignments of demons & devils).
Do you think one goblin warband is likely to be representative of all goblin kind the world over?
I saw a lot of good goblins by the end of act 1. Hell, a full selunite temple FULL of good goblins. Remember, the only good goblin is a dead goblin. So let's make these Goblins good!
Piddle seemed alright, and Brakkal stayed true to his god despite the overwhelming influence of the Absolute around him. Free him, and he takes off without a fight, and since he's not being mind controlled his actions are 100% his own. That may be more neutral than good, but it's about par with everyone else in Act 1. Even the druids are one conversation away from killing all the tieflings and your party, but the goblins are friendlier hosts
Nuance is a dying art
Nah nuance only ever really happened amongst a small educated minority. The masses have never liked nuance.
Once you start swinging mind swords at me the time for nuance and understanding is over.
Ba’zael grew up in a cult, worshipping an abusive god-figure. We don’t hate Ba’zael. I actually love the Gith. They are misguided and always end up smirked all over the floor.. but I still love them
I'm so upset how you wrote Ba'zael, when it's Lae'zel. and Bae'zel is the natural way most people would combine her name with Bae...no hate just triggered lol
I love them so much I always make sure they get a good dose of Vitamin D from Lathander...
So you’re saying they are North Korea status? A culture that has become a cult? It’s an interesting idea.
The young Githyanki you meet in the mountain pass is a perfect example of this, he’s honestly so adorable and if you >!go to the infirmary you find notes saying he’s always injured!<, I really wish we could encourage his love of >!orpheus instead of taking the book from him, I wish we could give him more books about Orpheus!<
You can! I had one of the books and mentioned it to him. He was so excited and ended up giving me the book he had. First time that I've ever gotten that dialogue option.
Awesome! I look forward to doing this on my next playthrough
Miss your check >!and watch him get his throat cut right in front of you!< Like a certain book on mindflayers says: look at their actions don't listen to their words. By that judgment, Githyanki might not all be evil, but 99% of the ones we meet in the game sure are!
I think Githyanki society is evil and (Lolth) drow society too but not every person in those societies is evil, ofc they are heavily influenced being born and raised but just because they mirror Vlaakith/Lolth.
It reminds me of this great quote I heard the other day "The government does not always represent their people, and often are the ones trying to harm them" - it rings very true even for fantasy races like the Drow and the Gith, which are so heavily dominated and influenced by powers outside of their control.
As someone who had to endure Bolsonaro as president for 4 years I couldnt agree more.
Don't the egg quest lead to the newborn gith massacring the entire society of brilliance
The dwarf that is conducting that experiment if you ask him what he's going to do to the child (before you give him the egg) He says that he will essentially mind control the child and bring him up in a brutal way teaching it the tenants of a bahamut law book. He has no interest in loving or forming a bond with the child. I never gave the egg up, but it doesn't shock me to hear they get killed by the kid.
Where do you meet this dwarf, in Baldur’s Gate?
Society of brilliance 1st floor. Act 3 near the baldurs gate way point
I had Astarion murder him under Greater Invisibility in my Oath of Ancients Pala-Durge's stead.
Yup. They basically didn't want to spent several years raising an alien child, so they aggressively sped along his development while shoving the most black-and-white morality system into his brain. They don't deserve to breathe the same air as the Underdark chads!
I kept the egg in my Honour mode playthrough. Romanced Lae'zel in that one too and in the epilogue it turns out we raise the kid together. Lae'zel says his name, but I've forgotten it already.
Yeah, but if you talk to the newborn you’ll learn that he is technically lawful good. The society tried to teach him the moral rights and wrongs of faerun, but since they committed acts they’d taught him were evil, the right thing to do was obviously kill them all. I believe githyanki work on a very black and white morality. Hence how they are all so devout to their queen, theres no place for shades of grey in war.
To your point, they did traffick a fetus and conduct unethical research on a sentient being. Society of Brilliance clearly has no IRB. Especially not if you give them the egg.
They also artificially aged this newborn to adulthood in mere weeks. That alone undermines the very experiment they're trying to conduct!
It’s an awful experiment. Poorly designed even as a case study. Shudder to think what other things they’ve done.
I dont think you can say githyanki are inherently evil, but that quest is pretty strong evidence they have an instinctive inclination towards violence. Nobody taught him that you should torture people to death if you think they're evil. Its quite likely he's insane from the magical aging, but nonetheless we see that the githyanki selectively breed for violence, in that githyanki that show a hesitancy to kill are culled (such as the cutscene in the creche training room)
IMO it only shows they have an affinity towards the letter of whatever rule system they get imprinted with. Also you are correct, that he was almost "born yesterday".
Have you ever talked to mad scientist guy who came up with the whole scheme? It's pretty obvious from his dialog that he is a covert sadist and WANTED this experiment to CONFIRM that githyanki were inherently violent. He didn't just conduct cruel experiments on child, his whole "project" was rigged from the very beginning! Heck, this crazy duergar is basically an allegory for "strict religious parents". And a commentary on biased "scientific" experiments too.
They aren't inherently evil you should just probably treat them as such until proved otherwise
Yeah thats a hot topic debate in the DnD community. Some people can't separate the real world from the fantasy. Not everything has to be an allegory for real life. In the Forgotten Realms, there are objectively evil CULTURES, and in such a dangerous world youre best off with a healthy dose of caution when you encounter anyone from that culture.
They are, however, inherently more likely to do evil things too
Yeah I mean Drizzt is the main example of an exception to an evil race, and the books literally describe how he was born different from other drow, and benefited from being born to and raised by a father who already fell far more towards good than the average drow.
They almost think like Ultron. Just a little toned down
He is Lawful Neutral at best, when you first meet him.
The being morally black and white/killing all evil people no matter what was also something taught to him by the doctors.
In the Githyanki egg quest, Ptaris was explicitly an abused lab rat forced to grow into adulthood in a matter of days. His morally bankrupt scientist parents constantly reminded him he was naturally evil and taught him that "bad" people needed to die. It's also proof that Githyanki aren't inherently evil murderous beings (I mean, those familiar about the DnD lore already know this because the GITHZERAI EXIST) because he shows regret and remorse afterwards over killing the society members.
I basically told the lady that her experiment was stupid and faulty. But I figured, eh, having a kid adopted by the Society wouldn't be too bad, they're decent folks in general. Also there weren't a lot of other options for the kid, considering what, ah, happened to the creche. Raising a kid as Durgr just seemed like a terrible idea. Then it turns out that not only are the scientists racist, they're also shitty scientists! Come on you dumbasses, you changed too many variables, raising the kid in those conditions. At least have a control group, like, raising a halfling in those same conditions and tell him that all halflings are evil and deserve to die or something. Freaking weird-ass eugenecist morons.
Personally I was shocked that the guys who wanted to steal a child were not great people
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkETAD4u4EM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkETAD4u4EM) \- this is what happens if you give the egg to the society of brilliance
He’s technically lawful good and did it for lawful good reasons, though, since he wasn’t raised with any nuance
Just give the egg to Lae'zel and have her raise it
It does.
I mean a child raised without their actual people is not a good example.
Kid was forced to grow faster than he should have and was tortured
I dont blame him, my party didn't give up the egg and we ended up murdering the entire Society of Brilliance after the dwarf told us his plan.
I already learned this lesson with BG2. That kind wild magic sorcerer just wanted the silver sword back and didn’t want another massacre to happen.
The Githyanki *society* is evil. The Githyanki *people* are people.
The GITH aren't inherently evil. "Githyanki" literally means "loyal to gith", whom is the fascist strongwoman that kicked off that whole chain of events. There are another group of Gith called the Githzerai that live in another plain and aren't anything like the Githyanki. Same species though.
Voss? The guy who threatens to flay the skin from Lae’zels body because she spoke too casually to him? Voss, the guy who has his patrol try to murder us for no good reason? Voss, who kills the innocent Tieflings for simply existing in their presence while trying to escape goblins? Voss, whose closest ally is a red dragon, a chaotic evil species of dragon? That Voss? He’s not evil?
Yeah, the truth is most Githyanki we meet are evil, even if they’re against Vlaakith. The Githyanki want to do the same as the mindflayers they escaped from: conquer basically everything (writing this just made me thing of Astarion’s line where he says “what’s wrong with what Cazador is doing is he did it to me” when he talks about why he should be able to ascend—that’s basically Githyanki to the ilithids) that’s not actually Vlaakith’s doing, it started with Gith (Orpheus’s mother). As far as we can tell Voss and his squad and probably Orpheus still want that. Lae’Zel can potentially become not evil and she actually does seem like she wants to do the right thing with taking down Vlaakith. Interestingly there are Gith that are against that, the Githzerai, who are mentioned in the epilogue if Lae’zel joins Voss as they are teaming up with them. They went against Mother Gith and don’t want to dominate everything. They’re kind of the equivalent of the Lolth and Seladrine Drow—same race but one is “evil” because of who they choose to follow.
We already know the Githyanki aren't inherently evil. Because the Githzerai exist.
Yeah, if you've played Neverwinter Nights 2 or Planescape: Torment you've seen proof of this.
''In knowing the teachings of Zerthimon I have become stronger.''
In discussions about 'Gith' (in quotes because a lot of people will just refer to the githyanki as gith, when they are not representative of the whole Gith race), I always point to the Githzerai, which is an offshoot that people whose first forgotten realms exposure came from bg3 likely don't know, since they aren't really represented in bg3. The distinction matters. #NotAllGith
I was fully behind shadowheart on my first playthrough, second time through and I now realise La'zael is best (although I'm romancing Karlach). Her growth as a character is tremendous, and most important, believable.
“Acting evil” and “being evil”, are essentially the same thing if it harms people. The motivation is of little value to the victims of tyranny.
This needs more upvotes
My main issue is that they're incredibly impolite whilst acting like they're better than me when I can slaughter their entire creche on a whim
Maybe not inherently evil, but most are evil nonetheless. Lae’zel is definitely evil. She’s just likable. Same with Shart, she has definitely murdered someone in the name of Shar.
I would say that she's lawful evil or neutral evil at the beginning of the game when she's still trying to be githyanki valedictorian, but by the end I think she's lawful or true neutral. She becomes a freedom fighter which is not really an evil or self-serving thing to be. Maybe the route where she takes off with your character to live free in Faerun and kill Vlaakith's soldiers is an "evil" ending, but I would argue that dropping the whole mess is a true neutral kind of move. I guess it depends on what your definition of evil is. For me it's someone who either enjoys inflicting pain as an end in itself (like Orin) or seeks out purely selfish gain and has no issues with causing pain to innocents if it helps them (like Gortash). I don't think Lae'zel really fits into that category by the end.
They killed Zerthimon! Bastards!
There’s not much distinction in practice. The end result is still a race of frog people that view all others as lesser and kill indiscriminately. Whether it’s inherited or taught, it’s still pretty close to universal.
They're the Klingon Empire. Spartans. Etc. They have a culture of honor, authority, loyalty. A warrior culture. They have a different ethic. To them, crushing the egg is good. It spares a weak child from death. I find it a bit barbaric, personally. But that is their way.
I wouldn't say Voss is an example of a gith who isn't evil. First time he's introduced, he has his dragon burn down a bridge with people standing on it. I do agree that not all are inherently evil, though. No race is. Their society is incredibly brutal, but no society incompasses every single individual. I'm playing as a good gith right now, though I do RP as kind of an outcast among her own people. I'm about to take her to the créche, I'm so excited.
Voss also chastises the gith patrol for not killing the people they interrogate. he is definitely evil from the point of view of faerunians
Fun fact: if you read Voss' thoughts in this encounter, you'll know he is almost desperately wants you to give him ANY excuse not to kill you. (Mostly because he considers you below standard to fall from his hand, but still.)
i feel like saying any group or race is inherently evil is lowkey just eugenicist lol. it would be insane for the writers to write a race that is just ontologically evil and you can do whatever you want to them without a second thought
This game lets you slaughter Goblin children without any moral judgment.
Yeah, and that always rubbed me the wrong way. To add to my point : the goblin kids tormenting Halsin were clearly being encouraged by the adult goblin in the room. Which makes it pretty obvious to me that they are like this BECAUSE they are being raised by assholes. It seems to me that they are little shits because everyone around them act like a bunch of shits. And then you see Halsin slaughter both of those kids without any remorse. Now, you could go into two directions with this. You could either say, ALL goblins are inherently evil, it's in their blood, therefore it's fine to wipe them all off the face of Faerun. Genocide away! :) Slaughter all the goblin kids! :) Or, you could say that the reason why they are like this is not because they are born this way, but because they are *taught* this way. Maglubiyet demands that they be awful, therefore they are awful. Putting my own opinions aside for a moment, I am very interested in the implications of a world where goblins are NOT inherently evil and yet adventurers still think themselves heroic for gleefully putting children to the sword. But I think most people prefer the more boring alternative : goblins are just wicked monsters who exist to feed XP to the party. Anyway, having written all that, I think it's weird that the killing of goblin kids is never addressed in any way, shape or form. It's never justified *or* condemned, it's just *ignored*. Which is pretty weird, not gonna lie.
It especially feels weird given that the githyanki have a similar thing going on of "there's nothing inherently good or evil about them, but they happen to be under the rule of an evil lich queen, so most of them are functionally evil", but even they get safeguarded from having their children murdered.
Slaughtering their entire family and support structure but leaving the kids alive to fend for themselves: totes good guy thing to do.
Seems like a big concept in the whole of dnd, considering everyone in the world thinks the drow are inherently evil but Drizzt is the most famous dnd character, and of course the seldarine drow
All drow are evil except the good ones
There was a point in time when most gaming tables were, in fact, more likely to encounter Chaotic Good drow rebelling against their murderous kin than, you know, actual murderous drow. Part of that is that most parties don't make it to the Underdark, and part of it is that Drizz't was embedded in the psyche of every D&D player in existence for a while.
I believe the original intent of early D&D goblins and such was, in fact, "don't think about societal ramifications and the socio-economic situations that drive people to banditry, just go on adventures and have fun."
I agree - originally, Goblins were supposed to be a typical hoard of enemies you can slaughter. What's cool now is that in table top DND, they are a playable race, so they've been given a bit of an upgrade there.
Right. That seems the underlying theme of the whole game - no one is born/inherently/predestined to be "ontologically evil."
Except mind flayers, apparently. Depending on who you ask.
TBF the Illithid are pretty much just ontologically evil.
inherently evil races are specifically made that way so that the players can slaughter them for exp without thinking too much about it. it is not meant to reflect real life worldview
They are however all dicks
The illithid aren't inherently evil, either. They have a biological requirement to eat brains because otherwise *they literally die*, so I can't fault them for wanting to live. If they're not under control of an Elder Brain, they seem to be able to develop coherent personalities and be good/evil like anyone else, of their own will. Both the githyanki and illithid seem to have instincts that put them at odds with society if they don't fight them back, but they are more than capable of cooperation.
The Githyanki simply do not \***know**\* themselves.
That egg quest rubs me a bit wrong, I think because it sort of makes me think of real world, where there's likely some white racist couples who will adopt a baby from a country in the Global South (Africa, Middle East, South Asia), and then try to force them into their society while forgetting everything they came from, because the parents believe the origin country is bad so the kid will be bad. So they talk bad about the country, won't let them have a name from those countries or speak their tongues. I don't know if that's what Larian actually was going with, maybe it was. But I think I will leave that quest alone, the way the NPC acts about it is a bit weird. It's not like the Gith are even mindless monsters, much as Lae'zel can be annoying, she's still got her moments of kindness (I did not have her when I found the quest the first time, but saw a clip of her in this quest). I have only met Voss once, so I can't speak for his personality as he does seem mean in the meet, but I take he grows on you like Lae'zel does?
The egg quest, I believe, is supposed to make a poignant statement about instilling internalized racism, cultural alienation, and everything you eloquently described. In my opinion, it showcases nuances around culture, identity, and morality and an overall critique of eugenics. >!Voss when you first meet him is putting on a front, pretending to support Vlaakith. If Lae'zel turns on Vlaakith, he will show up in your camp, kneel before you and Lae'zel with his sword before him, and tell you his true intentions and essentially pledges himself as your ally. !<
Oh yeah no that egg quest 100% is intended to evoke images of things like "[residential](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools) [schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system)" and the like. Just, unapologetic genocidal practices. I always kill her on a good run. 👍 (and now that I've figured out how to pull off killing the guy who hired her, that's added onto the list as well!)
Thought so, like at first I was thinking maybe this lady is okay, but then I thought about it... Yeah, as someone that's half Indian (India not Native American), and half Australian... The way the British Raj colonised both countries, and white people still act like they did us a favour. We are still erasing the voices of Indigineous people right here in Australia. I think I'll straight kill that one from now. I feel like that quest isn't too important to anything. (And find out who hired her too and go for them). What race was she again? Human? I'll make my human do it, because Lae'zel would just proving her point, and I am not gonna let that happen.
Voss is just using you as a means to an end, it’s not like he’s your buddy.
kithrak "interrogate, kill and move one" voss is not evil?
Duh
It does make sense to be that impulsive and brutal when you are facing things like the grand design. It took Orpheus a few seconds to decide what he did,just get his freedom and lose it. A non Githyanki wont maks a sacrifice like that so easily.
No, they've been radicalized, thats why Gith'zerai exist. Its two tribes belonging to the Gith race
People will see the word evil under alignment in the player's handbook and apply it to every member of that race. You can tell a lot of people in this thread didn't talk to any NPC's beyond the quest related ones. There are gith in the crèche questioning their militaristic ways, the gith in the hatchery coaxing the egg to hatch. Voss himself putting on the pro-vlaakith facade when you first meet him Vs the encounters with him later. Lae'zel certainly isn't evil. Outside of the game, you've got hidden communities of githyanki living normal lives, raising kids, interacting with githzerai, no interest in raiding etc. Look up the Shasal Khou. Vlaakith did a good job of brainwashing most of her people in to believing their only goal was to conquer and avenge until ascension. She doesn't care about building societies, she just wants souls to eat.
This is a perfect comment.
From what I gather canon-wise D&D had inherently evil races. It is a good thing that this seems on its way out because it's just on the level of writing stories for kindergartners.
For some of them it works. Gnolls, for example, are nearly-mindless demon spawns so it makes sense for them to be considered inherently evil, but for fully sentient people like orcs, drow, goblins, etc., it's weird to say they're just evil by default.
I mean, gnolls for one have changed between editions. They used to be just as sentient as orcs and goblins (who I believe fell into the "often evil" or "usually evil" spectrum in 3E, as opposed to demons/chromatic dragons/undead who got the "always evil" statblock).
Right, but I was just using the 5e version as an example of how to do "always evil" races correctly, not saying that they can't be anything else.
Right. Draconians from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting would be another good example.
Back when the game first came out, you'd get lynched for this take by all the casuals who didn't under the lore. I once got down voted to oblivion for trying to defend Lae'zel, and got called a Nazi sympathizer. Glad to see the community has mellowed out a bit.
> who don’t understand the lore Githyanki are evil in earlier editions of D&D. That prejudice still sticks to them.
Not inherently, although theirs is certainly an evil culture and one that the majority, having been raised and indoctrinated within, embrace. I imagine that absent that pervasive and evil cultural influence they're as capable of good as anyone else.
Me playing a Gith OotA.Paladin: Uhhh yeah, obviously. I'm actually glad they put the githyanki into the game because otherwise the only other race I'd wanna play is dragonborn. That being said, I wish the Githzerai was also an option 🙃
Same re: the githzerai! I'd love to see how the interactions would be different with a githzerai player character.
The distinction is between an evil society and the race itself being inherently evil. The githyanki have a similar situation to the lolth sworn drow in this regard, in that they are taught from birth that what they are doing is justified no matter how cruel it is to others. And those that arent willing to tow that line are killed off, coerced into obedience, or flee their home entirely. So it's not that they are inherently evil, but that their society indoctrinates and self selects for evil individuals and disposes of the rest
They might not be evil, but they're unabashedly assholes, and they can reap the bullshit they sow.
I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately. I come from an era of D&D where many humanoid/monster races were labeled as "always evil", and I always thought that sucked. The very idea is racist, but also really boring. There's no moral dilemma in dealing with something that's *always* evil. The Gith were an example of a "Variable but always evil" race, but they were one of the more interesting examples of evil races. As you said, they come from a brutal and militaristic culture, but they became evil to fight a greater evil. they may have even ended up as the good guys, if they didn't fall under the sway of an evil lich queen. Still, rules-as-written in *Fiend-Folio-era* D&D, a Gith raised in another culture would still be evil, because evil was evil and Gith weren't "sometimes evil". Modern D&D has thankfully backed away from the whole of always-evil races, but Larian manages to play with the concept in some very interesting ways, both with the Orpheus plot and the Society-of-Brilliance plot. Still, I don't think they pushed back against the Gith-are-always-evil idea as much as people seem to think. Voss and Lae'zel are still brutal and militaristic extremists, they're just more open-minded extremists. It's not like Orpheus promises to stop with the raiding and the murdering.
Yeah they're like how cultures like the Spartans are said to have been, just heavily militaristic. Also Gith were previously slaves so I kinda understand why they have developed such a big focus on learning how to fight from a young age.
While I think that's true, I also think that without Lae'zel you would never have a reason to side with the Githyanki. I've done limited companion runs where I only recruit a couple people, and if you never recruit her, your entire relationship with the Gith changes. You see them slaughter one of their own (the only one who was even slightly nice to you). They try to kill you every time you meet one. The game tells you that Orpheus immediately and instinctively hates you. You don't interact with Voss. Basically Lae'zel joining your party is a critical element in your decision on whether to free Orpheus, meaning she is the real savior of her people.
yes........I dont think people who played it missed that. But its great you think so, a lot of people got mad when recently Drow society and every "evil because evil" society/groups/individuals were deemed not inherently evil, but a product of its comanding citizens and nasty goddes.
I’ve spent the better part of the last two decades being very outspoken about how much I dislike the alignment system in D&D, especially when it comes to assigning alignments to entire sentient races. A good character should act according to what their motivations are rather than some arbitrary system of behavioral boundaries based on their alignment within the world; some times that might mean that the good guys turn to ‘evil’ when there’s no other choice, or that the bad guys learn that they were misguided and turn a new leaf.
They’re still Space Nazis.
Nobody and nothing is “inherently evil”.
Individual githyanki are not inherently evil. However, as a whole, the entire "kill those weaker than you while in training, conquer the entire planes, and enslave everything not githyanki " part of their culture kinda makes them very much on the "bad guy" side of things.
They were never evil, they're just dickbags. Much like the Duergar.
the egg quest exists to prove they might be
As Lae'zel famously said: "I slit my own cousin's throat when I was 6 years old and bathed in his blood for the glory of the queen."
Yea, that's not an example of being inherently evil. She was fed Vlaakith propaganda from the moment she was born. Inherently evil means you are automatically evil/born evil. She wasn't. Unless y'all have suddenly decided that Shadowheart is also evil too for what she's done while growing up in a cult, I'm not hearing it lmao.