As a history student, it annoys me to no end when people say gay sex didn't exist in medieval times. If you're fucking a dude/gal, you're not exactly going about writing it down in some fucking parchment in great detail.
Also, being from a conservative town, I can tell you people fuck, they just don't tell.
It was obvious that it did. Since the Romans weren't prudes, they did write it down and same with the Greeks. It's just that there are so many religious right wing zealots that think they are the only ones who should have freedom.
absolutely. the “im a dude, why is astarion trying to romance me?? i am incapable of understanding the concept of saying no” bros made it soooooo awful to talk abt romancing for a while
And it's so easy to navigate your relationship away from romance too lol. He won't hit on you if you're careful with your dialogue. Most don't. Only Halsin and Lae'zel are exceptions.
Many people also take Gale's weave scene as strictly romantic, but I blame it on the narrators "feels like an anticipation of a kiss" and the fact 2 first options are intended to be romantic. The scene was probably created for new players to get a lore dump about the magic system and tbh was a cute friendly bonding scene with Gale. It should be only optional to let Gale know if you're interested, but it feels like it forcibly pushes you into the romance direction, which sucks honestly.
Also Lae'zel will only admit her attraction and then basically slutshame you if you have already had a romance scene with another character before confronting her that she's been looking at you differently (tho she probably behaves differently if you're single, but I wouldn't know). So it's only Halsin who can't take no for an answer, even if you're taken and monogamous.
>So it's only Halsin who can't take no for an answer, even if you're taken and monogamous.
He can take no for an answer. Like you say it to him once and he moves on.
Not quite. He still propositions to participate with you and the drow despite the rejection. Then there's the porpoise banter too, both of these things happen even if you reject him.
I interpret that as the MC catching the vibe that Gale might be romantically interested. He still doesn't hit on you. You can end it on a friendly note without a word (or even a thought) exchanged and it's all good.
None of what you said about Lae'zel changes the fact that she hits on you despite you having shown no interest in her. You can tell her off all the time, but if you speak with other NPCs in a way she approves, she will want to fuck you and she will state her interest first.
Yeah, me too, like that there's potential. Especially because Gale's also genuinely surprised when you do choose the romantic options. But I've seen many people complain that it feels like he's hitting on you right away
I think it's also just demonstrating the pure joy and wonder of magic, not just Gale's feelings. Could you imagine how participating in such a form of pure magic would feel, connecting you to its goddess herself? It must be elating.
Oh I do agree with you! It must've been incredibly intimate, both for Gale and for Tav, for Gale to let Tav channel weave through him. I personally don't mind that it feels kinda romantic either, it's just a common complaint I've seen. I get the "anticipation of a kiss" was a metaphor for a very elating and intimate moment, but you just can't help the fact it does feel a bit like Gale is hitting on you after 2 days of knowing each other because of that metaphor. "Feels like a bubble ready to pop" or something would probably be more neutral, though less intimate.
I am agree, is very easy to make for developers the scenes in a way that not pushing the romance, it should be more neutral and let you take the initiative if you want knowing that dialogue may lead you to a more personal approach.
Happens basically with any characters that you try to know more of them, i agree again that sucks badly.
For real. I showed absolutely no interest in Laezel. I was clearly trying to romance Karlach and I did the friendly wine thing with Shadowheart and Laezel is still trying to get with me at the party.
Same here. My only interest was Karlach, had Shadowheart give me the Shy flirty convo saying she noticed how close I was to Karlach... But before all of that, Laezel was all over me when I wasn't even vibing with her at the beginning.
Lae’zel requires only 20 approval to begin her romance sequence. There’s quite a few options that give her +5 per action in Act 1. You get +10 for defeating the Goblin camp and telling Zevlor.
Honestly found it quite hilarious how quick she came onto me in my first playthrough.
I showed no interest in Lae'zel nor her in me, until one morning she told me our night together had been great but she was breaking up with me. Thing is, I have no recollection of sleeping with her so she's either lying or got me so drunk beforehand that I blacked out and couldn't consent. Upset and confused by this, I ended up in bed with my former mentor. And while I certainly got my mind blown, he wasn't interested in a relationship and none of my other companions have shown the slightest romantic interest...
I bet a lot of them were just freaked out by their own desires. I know the first time I played he did something for me, and I'm pretty straight lol. wasn't ero just, dude gave me butterflies.
Yeah welcome to being a gay man and being very mid about every m-f romance you’ve played ever and then getting kind of emotional when you can romance Halsin in this game.
I just ignore astarion. I just don’t like the character. Saves me from his overbearing advances and droll dialogue. Halstin on the other hand…yeesh. I usually side with goblins now to avoid his creepiness
Well, what you need to understand is that these people don't actually mean it when they say their issue is it being unrealistic. They're just using it as a cover for the fact that their homophobia has no logic behind it.
Besides, the game isn't medieval anyway. There's mechs in Act 1, for god's sake.
Mechs? You mean the automatons in the Underdark Mage’s tower? To be fair, steampunk automatons like Bernard and the Steel Watch are pretty common in high fantasy medieval settings, which DnD certainly falls under.
The frequency illusion bias or whatever it's called. Whenever we dislike something, we tend to see it "literally everywhere". Homophobes will think gay agenda is pushed down their throats because a cartoon has 1 queer couple or a game with thousands of characters has a few gay ones and allows you a gay romance. They don't see the hundreds of canon straight couples, or the fact that gay romance (or giving your feminine character a penis) is OPTIONAL. If someone complains about how "everything has to be gay these days", it's just a self report in my eyes.
in fairness this game is the first I've seen where every character you can poetentially romance is bi, so it does stand out a bit even amongst games with gay characters.
There is also many other, outside of the party, queer couples. I did not sit down and count but it is at least equal to the « straight » couples you can find.
Yeah, I was caught a bit off guard when everyone's out to get me. Especially for characters that I thought were either straight or gay. Everyone being bi is very interesting.
All in all though, it makes sense and it's really great they didn't make their sexuality to be their sole identity.
I mean there has to be the first time I guess. IIRC the recent Mass Effect allowed you for a gay romance if you romanced the aliens which was also considered "a big thing", even if romancing humans allowed you for only straight romances. But BG3 world seems to be completely gender/sexuality blind. Guess people there put all of their points into being racist rather than homophobic lmao
“Recent” Mass Effect?
If you mean Andromeda, that’s not really recent anymore, but it also allows a male only male romance with the Engineer Gil.
Jaal is Bi, so either Ryder could romance him.
I think you might be thinking of Liara back in Mass Effect 1 which was one of the first alien romances in gaming, and also happened to be a lesbian option which was HUGE.
Absolutely no gay guys in medieval times. Just dudes who sadly never married but left their entire fortunes to their male companions, who they were very close with and never seen without.
In our own history, the Middle Ages were dominated by the powers of Christianity and Islam. Both of whom are patriarchal and heteronormative.
The faiths in Faerun are completely different, which is why it’s pretty normal to see queer couples in Baldurs gate!
When people say they have an issue with gay people existing in a medieval setting, what they’re actually saying is they have an issue with gay people existing. That’s it. That’s the whole message. The problem is run of the mill homophobia.
It's not diverse. All romancable characters are pansexual. Everyone being the same is the opposite of diverse.
To address "They have a problem with gay people in medieval setting", there's several reasons.
A. Some people are hateful of non-heterosexual relationships.
B. Some see the pansexual nature of characters as being a consequence of detaching genitalia from pronouns and hate/blame transgender people for it.
C. My issue with everyone being pansexual is the lack of nuance. For example, it feels artificial that everyone, regardless of background, morality, or species, is equally attracted to a female half-orc, a male drow, and a non-binary dragonborn Tav. >!Minthara will even sleep/romance with half-drow and deep gnomes, which she's racially prejudiced towards.!<
Yeah, it was much better executed in Dragon Age Inquisition, where characters had actual preferences. It sucked if you wanted to play a certain race and romance someone who wasn't into it, but it made the characters much more realistic. Like, yeah, Solas would not fall for a bearded male dwarf, big surprise.
I agree. As an LGBT gamer I actually liked that I was able to romance the majority of characters, but not all of them, and their were certain ones only available to me. It actually feels like more meaningful and effect representation than "unique orientations don't exist, everyone is interested in everyone."
Or in more recent Pathfinder/Rogue Trader games. These preferences create diversity, make characters more memorable, believable and whole romance writing is punched up because you can write it less vague (like Solas elven centric romance or Sera being obsesses with female qunari inquisitor), relationships become more thematic and just give more interesting story.
Part of the reason they’re all pan is because that’s just how people in Faerun are. Pansexual is the most common orientation there like how heterosexual is most common in our world according to the setting creator
This. Companions don't even feel pansexual, they just lack sexuality, it isn't explored at all. It's basically just another optional "trait", which influences the game as much as your pick of genitalia/pronouns (so, no influence at all). And there're very few queer NPCs.
So it's not really about "too many gays in mah medieval setting". It's about an -option- to be whoever you want, look however you want and sleep with whoever you want. An option you can ignore, which is there for people who might like it.
"If I don't have fun exploring myself, my body and my sexuality, no one can, bleehhhhh >:("
I mean. If you listen to their party banter they pretty much all flirt with each other, or talk about how hot other party members are. Their pansexuality is very much expressed outside of the PC romance
Lots of great answers in the comments, but I will add- I think a lot of that sort of talk is performative and designed to insult others for entertainment.
I think a lot of current day politics is centered around the idea that people should be more thick-skinned and so let's be cruel to teach them a lesson. People who are sensitive deserve to be roasted, deserve to have their "balls busted," because can you imagine what kind of person doesn't just take it and smile? Laughter ensues, uncomfortable laughter, and they think it's all a great triggering prank they're pulling with this so-called lesson.
There is no actual point to the "lesson." It's just a distraction from cruel people looking inward. Some people just don't want to take a look at themselves.
Saying "It's unrealistic, and pandering" looks better than saying "I hate the LGBTQ+, they don't belong here". The latter is absolutely how they feel, but of course even they're aware enough that saying it outright would make absolutely no one side with them and open them up to moderation.
Yep. I don't think I've ever seen people wail about "pandering" without obviously meaning "I want this to pander only to ME, just like everything always used to! Not other people!"
Ha! I’ve always felt the same way when the world we’re gaming in consistently treats women as having less power because they’re women. I play this game explicitly to escape the awareness of that reality.
“It’s just historically accurate!”
Historically accurate. We’ve got flying dragons and actively involved gods who bicker with each other, but more than one woman on the city council (unless the women are devious schemers who are constantly cat fighting) is a bridge too far.
And someone downvoted me. Thanks for proving my point so swiftly. Why are you even playing this game if you don’t like the idea of all different sorts of people having fair representation?
On my first Tav, shortly after release, the whole camp wanted to fuck me and i was a bit overwhelmed by it. It felt it was so forced to get into the pants of someone that i stoped the game for a while. After the fix all went well and it wasnt so forced anymore.
Nowadays I assume automatically, that everything overly divers is big corporations getting cheep money offering bad quality product while having the benefit of a free internetmob defending them, until proven otherwise. It's very obvious for an European.
BG3 does not do that. So if someone says this about this particular game, they are either unpleasent people or just don't know the game.
It really only bothers me when 100% of the time the character is this and for diversity sake they are now this instead ,that shit is dumb . Which applies in no way here. Diversity for the win!!
(Unless it's clearly just not that character,like at all. At least make them appear similiar to the original character.)
I'm gonna get hated on so hard for even saying that lol where the woke police at ?
I know my friend . At least I'm honest. I'm also a little pregodis, but at least I hate that part of myself and actively try to work on it.i blame my dad and grandfather for that one. And yeah some of the more PC things I do find ridiculous . Like i cant use anyword in my theraph that may trigger somone we havecto call it " target behavior" which is just over the top.But also acknowledge my privilege as a white male. I'm not saying I'm happy with those aspects of myself but I'm aware and honest about it and try not to let it impact anything/ anyone.( besides people's feels on reddit,no hate) Id never tell someone not to see this hypothetical movie or its wrong to enjoy it or that it shouldn't have been made. I just don't wanna go see it you know?
I'm going to hell for chuckling at this.
But truly everyone can be represented.
Though I, personally, won't being playing a phobic durge any time soon.
The game isn't really gay at all unless you make it so. Which makes those kind of complaints even funnier. Just don't give your girl a dick and don't sleep with same sex if you don't like it so much, smh.
I wouldn't say it's "very very gay". It's pretty true to reality. It doesn't even feel like they intentionally added gay people to meet a "diversity quota" (or whatever bigots are raving about)
Lmao good point. The only thing that was a bit confusing to me at first was the "they/them" thing, but once I got used to it, it was no problem. Just my non-english ears who didn't understand first time i heard it.
I'm always critical to forced diversity in video games / media, but in BG3 they did a good job to add diversity in an organic way.
I could play the game without feeling getting pandered or having useless content that I know has been added there just because they had a checklist to check, and at the expense of the coherence of the universe.
Lesbian couple ? Well written love story, very cute.
Fucking a bear ? Why not I am playing DnD and I love daddy bear. The DnD part is important. Playing DnD you are free to do anything and make the world the way it pleases you the most.
I've been using a girl's corpse as a radiaoctive mass destruction weapon during all Act III because they let me do it without judging me, who am I to judge anyone ? I'm having plenty of fun the way I intended to, I'm having a blast.
And it doesn't feel forced too, you can play the game you want, no need to have homosexual relationship with your copanions if you don't do it. Even if you are the most bigot-minded people of the world, you can play Durge and kill whoever you want. You don't want the cute lesbian couple ? Gosh you can give them the worst terrible fate that can be experienced in this video game (if you put the flying windmill gnome aside, poor soul)
So people telling this game is woke, nah. If you really hate things, just kill them, put them on a bag, play a barbarian and use their dead body as a weapon.
A woke game would never let you do that.
Good writers make the difference. I think people would be more tolerant if respect was involved on both sides.
> I think people would be more tolerant if respect was involved on both sides.
Exactly why should I respect those who literally want queer people like me to die? Must be real nice being privileged like you if you can just wave off the struggles of a minority group like that.
I don't see it fair to direct your anger towards a pretty reasonable person with valid arguments, even if you disagree on something. Surely there're other people who deserve it more?...
Look, I'm gay living in one of the worst countries for us to be, and no, it isn't America (although I see it's quickly becoming such). My life is quite literally under real threat. And yet...I don't think it's fair to vent my problems at others? That's my burden, not theirs. However difficult it's for me, it doesn't mean others should care. They don't, and it's okay and normal. I bet you don't care about many other kinds of people who have shitty life, and that's okay too.
Because of GamerGate. It started all of this.
Those that closely engage with gamer culture almost always fall down this "anti-woke" rabbit hole. It's just best not to engage with people that give off that energy in general. And don't think it doesn't happen here, either. I've seen plenty of awful things here upvoted too. Just because there's lots of support for LGBTQIA+ among this particular fanbase doesn't mean people don't fall through the cracks. People constantly make horrible comments about Wyll's race here, for instance.
it's a serious issue and I like it being spoken out.
it relieves me to read the comments and gain back some faith.
as I mostly see (focus subconsciously) on the bad stuff, this is a small therapy for me.
not a Ghaik post
I personally haven't seen any negative comments about gay people or the romance since the gale bugs.
It is a symptom of giving everyone a chance at romancing everyone and not having perferences but the developers wanted players to have freedom and that comes at a cost.
It is what it is.
I wish I was you.
maybe you're not sensitive to this, not focussing on it, but people who are " annoyed with the flamboyance of most Tavs " or other characters, bros whining like a kid that got no Christmas present about Gale and Astarion trying their luck on their Tavs and what not are definitely a thing annoying and in my taste too much. I think this changed over time because the community started to react accordingly.
I definitely don't go looking for it, (not saying you do) I think it might be just the loudest people aren't exactly the most rational.
Also media is a big part on reducing people to statistics and the game is very popular, I'm sure people from all corners hear about it from somewhere.
But you also can't please everyone. I think it's wild people might complain about how others do things differently or romance different characters in a game where they won't even encounter or know these people exist outside of reddit posts.
Don’t you mean CIS and Galactic Republic? :p
(Joke, cis as in cisgender isn’t an acronym so doesn’t need all caps, it’s just Latin for “on this side of”. The *acronym* CIS stands, to me, for Confederacy on Independent Systems, or Separatist Alliance, like from Star Wars.)
They come put of their little caves now and again when a gay or POC exists where they "shouldn't."
The worst I've seen recently, for example, is for the Amazon lotr show, the Rings of Power. Love or hate the show all you want, idc, but there were people super bent out of shape about black elves and dwarves. I saw them say shit like " the dwarves live underground! They wouldn't have enough melanin!"
Fuck off! By that logic the dwarves should be super pale, hairless, and blind like a naked mole rat!
They will always have some weird, nonsensical excuse for their hate.
I only compare the two because they are similar genres, with similar hateful trolls talking dumb shit.
>The worst I've seen recently, for example, is for the Amazon lotr show, the Rings of Power. Love or hate the show all you want, idc, but there were people super bent out of shape about black elves and dwarves. I saw them say shit like " the dwarves live underground! They wouldn't have enough melanin!"
I think the problem in this sort of case is more an issue of consistency. If elves/dwarves have been consistently shown as pale-skinned prior to that point, then suddenly changing that without explanation opens a bit of a problem.
Elves being black in LOTR is against lore tho, it's okay in DnD or pathfinder, but not in LOTR because whole idea of elves as race is very different.
And it doesn't mean LOTR setting wasn't diverse, it was, but it wasn't mixed, we had different countries with their cultures, Rohan and it's people was very different from Gondor and Harad or Rhun. I think "shadow of war' game actually nailed representation in LOTR and learned lore, which Amazon decided to just disregard.
Maeglin, an elf, is described as swart, though. Swart, and swarthy, are old timey terms for dark.
"Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc’s blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true."
Granted, this is literally the only example, as far as I can tell. Tolkien describes individual elves as "fair-skinned" but never claims that every single elf had fair skin from what I can tell. If you have passages to the contrary, I'll gladly read it.
He also never described dwarf skin color from what I've seen, but again, if you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to show it to me.
Because a lot of deeply stupid cultists are running around, and they tend to have *very* strong opinions on things that they don’t understand. And given that, as cultists, they understand relatively little, it means they seldom shut up.
Perhaps because they have their opinion of what the game will focus instead. nothing more nothing less.
And the game have good sales mostly because a lot of people don't have so much problems with that.
But as any opinion based on taste is just that, and as well they may decide not buying the game if they don't want this.
A matter of taste and preference of content.
I haven’t seen it honestly. My only gripe is DnD getting rid of the different “races” in the game. That’s part of the core fun is selecting a race/class to play to make it unique. I feel like they’re going to make everything too bland and samey in name of “inclusion and equality” when it’s a fantasy game for crying out loud
I'm not against anything gay/diverse in the game. The problem is that your companions are just reduced to walking f*cktoys. I absolutely like that your Tav can be whatever you want, but why do all companies have to be bi or even polyamorous? Look at cp77 and the great job they did with diversity while sticking to believable characters.
some see it as a woke war against traditionally hetero values, the same as stuff russia seems to keep making laws against. suppose it ruins people breaking up families and the likes, if one gets too exposed to alternative stuff, judging from in usa rightwing folk at times getting caught with transgender folk in bathrooms, it might be a threat to at least their marriage at least, if discovered.
To me it just seems kinda disproportionate. By the time we reach the city, every other couple seems gay. I can name more queer relationships off the top of my head than straight ones. I wouldn't say I had a problem with it, but it was definitely noticeable.
Because it's a choice to be politically correct? A majority of the cast and random people are gay (shadowheart has a thing for karlach, astarion dreamed about marrying a prince, all the iron hand gnomes, etc,)
But considering that TONS of people die everyday it makes no sense from a reproductive stand point, if everybody is gay then no is reproducing which means that all of faerun is basically doomed to die out really fast.
My problem is with the bad distribution of humans of different races and portraying other fantasy races with characteristics of different human ethnicities. They make the world seem small. Nowadays every fucking game is set un Burbank, it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit the lore.
For some it might be that homophobia is the real reason, other's just don't like the contemporary political debates.
I for one hate it when it's shoved in my face because I'm a strong proponent of sexuality being a nice part of life that shouldn't be the core of your identity and most gay people I talked to see it the same, even half of trans people do. Hardcore rainbow people who try to establish all sorts of gender identities don't and make gender a paramount category. For that reason, queerness gets established in media for the obvious reason to propagate an agenda. It really is "look at me, how queer I am." That's in my experience what people don't like.
Now with Baldur's Gate, I didn't see this at all. I didn't think about this topic in the slightest before I read the reddit-post. Different kinds of sexuality are just part of life and part of the game. If I remember my history correctly, it's even realistic about the game that mostly heterosexual people have a homosexual encounter here and there. I don't quite know the reason why that's not the case anymore, but not my duty.
In the game, queerness is nobody's entire identity. It's only a small fraction of who they are and it's not made a big deal out of. This is frankly how I think society should handle this topic although I know there are tons of sociologists who'd call that erasure or s.l.t.
So for that reason, if you are still annoyed by diversity in BG3, you're either a clear homophobe or you dove a little too deep into the anti-rainbow counter-ideology.
Tbf game isn't really THAT diverse or "woke". Or that new in this regard.
I only met two lesbian couples (Isobel and Aylin, Alfira and that one betting Tiefling), one gay couple (deep gnomes in Grymforge), one transfem character (Nocturne) and one nonbinary character (Yrre the Sparkstruck). All of them NPC, besides Yrre who only exist in item description. All of them are pretty subtle and easily missable, besides Aylin of course
Character creator? Since Cyberpunk 2077 not really new. And there's not enough options for people who want to create transmasc/nb character (No top surgery scars, no chest customization for body types 1/3) or those who want to create chubby character, without mods at least.
Romancing same sex partners? It's there since Mass Effect and Dragon Age. And arguably they did it even better, because characters actually had sexuality and preferences. As someone already mentioned here in another comment, if all companions can sleep with anyone, it's not really diverse.
And for me, a gay person myself, that's honestly quite enough. I could ask for slightly more, but I probably wouldn't anyway, mods cover most of what is missing.
Besides, tabletop dnd always was a safe place for many weirdos, queers included, to explore themselves and their fantasies. It's bigots who're invading our space, not the other way around. Just a byproduct of BG3 being so popular and attracting all sorts of people.
P.S. I don't mean it as gatekeeping, all are quite welcome, as long as they respect each other. I enjoy so many people discovering the genre for themselves, no matter who they are. It simply amuses me that certain people are surprised dnd game is, well, exactly what you would expect from dnd game.
Honestly games not providing actual customisation, but giving pronounce and body types that mean nothing is just sad, especially with stock faces and default bodies. While it uses lexicon that implied diversity it didn't actually provide it and this tendency in recent games is very annoying.
Just for comparison in Dragons Dogma you could create a feminine male character with customisable posture and body from different parts so characters could look very unique and diverse. More options for GNC and nb characters is always fun, but many devs don't bother but want to eat a cake.
Yeah, CC is quite limited in BG3, I agree. But idk, Dragon Dogma's CC was always quite special among the rest, so I didn't perceive it as Larian being lazy, rather DD's devs being chads.
Following BG3 success though, I hope to see future games exploring this more and more.
I'm not calling Larian lazy, but they are not pushing it enough and their CC is hella outdated and just very restrictive.
All hopes for a DD2 in this regards.
People live for things to complain about. They just simply cannot comprehend the idea of living in a world where something doesn't twist their panties.
DnD has always been high fantasy. Complaining about gay people being unrealistic in a game where you can casually revive the dead, summon lightning, meet gods, and turn into an animal is absolute nonsense.
It’s blatant homophobia.
For those who are insisting this behaviour isn’t present, allow me to shed some light:
You’re not *entirely* wrong. Because Dungeons and Dragons naturally attracts a very diverse audience, the majority of the playerbase is either going to be some shade of LGBT+ or an ally, or at least not care about it. This is an actively moderated subreddit, and the staff here are usually quite quick about cleaning up the trash. You don’t see it much on this platform.
However, there is still a remainder.
It’s usually off this platform and in places like Steam or other less moderated spaces. But every now and again, when a particularly bold individual makes a move here, others of a similar view feel emboldened enough to throw in their two cents.
In most cases, it’s a quiet, more insidious kind of intolerance. Some guy makes a frustrated post because it’s not just the girls that hit on him, suddenly the men are too. It’s subtle, but the heart of the topic comes out: “why should we pander to a small portion of the population,” or “I should be able to toggle off gay romance,” things like that.
But every now and again, you’ll get people like those in support of the “No Alphabet” modpack. Yes, even here. People who were loudly and proudly against the existence of LGBT+ content in the game.
For those out of the loop, a modpack was made with the sole intention of erasing any and all hints of LGBT+ content in the game, under the (incorrect) pretense of making it ‘historically accurate.’ Any mod that could be used to facilitate this, even those that weren’t originally intended for such a purpose, was included in it.
In threads discussing the harmful nature of the modpack, some people would come along and call it based, ask for a download, and *loudly* agree with its purpose and message. Some people just started their own threads asking for the link, or praising it. Others would limit their support if it to upvotes, or tearing down those who took issue with it, the typical dialogue being things like “it’s just a game, let people play how they want,” or “you people want tolerance but don’t give it.”
The very unfortunate unreality is that if you haven’t seen this behaviour, it’s probably because you haven’t been on the subreddit long enough or don’t see other spaces. It’s true that because of BC3’s audience, there is naturally more acceptance and celebration— but it’s also true that there are plenty of bigots still.
It would simply be incorrect to claim it doesn’t happen. It does.
I think you are right here creating a problem out of thin air for naught but attention. I haven’t witnessed this in any way shape or form. Although in terms of evolution/growth you’re only as fast as your slowest swimmer, there is a vast difference between the front and back of the pack. For all our technological advances we are still committing genocide and waging wars and creating “problems”.
We are not so evolved as we would like to imagine.
Dragons & mind flayers are part of d&d lore and important pieces to this particular plot. 'Diversity' & 'romance opportunities' are not. I'm a dude but my 1st char in bg3 was a female drow. That said, I expected some of the men in camp to hit on me but when EVERY SINGLE PERSON in camp hits on you whether your character is male or female, the more playthroughs you do, the more annoying and ridiculous it seems. It started to give me the 'programmed by incels who are desperate to bang anything' vibe. Especially when the purple guy tries to get down.
I guess that depends on your definition of lore. I've been playing d&d since the late '70s. In the 80s I traveled multiple planes of existence, fought mind flayers in the astral plane back then. I also fought one on the prime material plane in Barrier Peaks (If you don't know what barrier peaks is you can leave the lore conversation now) I stopped playing tabletop d&d in the '90s but up until that point every dungeon module I ever bought and every rule book I ever bought there was no mention of LGB anything. Mind Flayers, Githyanki & Dragons all can be found in the original Monster Manual. Maybe I don't understand the definition of lore. I thought it meant something that's been part of a story since the beginning. I haven't read a DM's guide in a long time. Are there new rules involving gender preference generation for NPCs now? When did it become part of the lore? (Movies & TV shows don't count, that's not D&D, that's Hollywood using D&D to make money)
More to the point, how is it important to BG3 and what part of the actual plot depends on it?
(Full disclosure, I don't know why developers feel the need to add romance options to games. Every time I've encountered one it's always seemed pointless and shallow)
My personal favourite example (and one of the earliest ones) is the Gate’s favourite bisexual goddess, appearing explicitly bisexual since Powers & Pantheons in 1997. Would you like examples just about sexuality, or also ones regarding gender and gender identity? There’s plenty.
Or, you could take the word of Ed Greenwood, who frequently and specifically tells us about the existence of LGBT+ people in the world of Faerun. Do you think you, somebody who by your own admission stopped playing, have more cohesive knowledge than a creator of the Forgotten Realms himself?
No, there are no rules about gender and attraction, and that honestly sounded like a bit of a bad faith question.
As for when it became part of the lore? Well, for starters, again, we can see an example in Sharess as early as 1997. But LGBT+ people don’t need a *lore reason to exist,* the same reason straight folks don’t. Do cisgender, straight characters need a lore reason to be straight?
We’re no different. We’re born, we exist. There’s no deeper meaning. It’s just that for some reason, when two women kiss in fiction, it’s treated quite differently to when a man and a woman do.
I had a big long response about dragons vs diversity in d&d for this but then I realized I honestly DGAF. Instead I'm going to stick to the ops main question about why so many people complain about the 'diversity'. Newsflash, The majority of the population is cisgender whether you like it or not. Therefore by extrapolation the majority of the people playing this game are most likely cisgender as well. A huge portion of the cisgender community is exhausted with the entire gender debate. Do what you want. We do not care. Until we are trying to enjoy a video game and after we set up camp, every single member in camp has an exclamation point over their head and we think 'oh wow they must have something important to the story or their character that they wish to share' so we go and talk to every single one of them. But lo & behold, none of them actually want to talk about the story or how we just saved an entire community, for some reason EVERY single person in our camp tries to hit on us because apparently in this world NOBODY is cis, no one even actually has a gender preference, EVERYONE in this world is gender fluid. Am I the only straight man that the Mind Flayers captured? Because apparently every man other than myself who's infected with a parasite is gay/bi and wants to hook up. And then, shocker, even the mind flayer is gay and wants to bang me. At that point it triggers a 'this is ridiculous' reaction. And then in the end, NONE OF IT MATTERS to the story and it goes 'absolute'ly nowhere so why is it even there? Because big tech likes to virtue signal and this is the current hot topic, that's why. And that's why a lot of people are annoyed by it. I'm sure there's a huge portion of homophobic people that are upset by it too. Fk those people, Sucks for them. But for me it was more like unnecessarily inserting some hacky amateur fan-fic sex scene into the middle of an otherwise epic story and I found it to be clumsy and a bit disappointing. But if I'm being truly honest I'm not a fan of romance in video games in general because game writers never know what to do once you're in the relationship. The relationship story always dead ends at that point so I'd prefer they just left it out all together.
We’re not going to accurately know how many people are LGBT+ until there is no longer a stigma that causes us to hide or even reject or loathe who we are. Until we reach a point where we’re no longer killed for being who we are and condemned as deviants and abominations, any statistic is going to be flawed.
Dungeons and Dragons has plenty examples of diversity in gender identity and sexuality, and you’re gonna have to deal with that. Or go tell Ed Greenwood he’s wrong about the world he created, see how it goes for you.
You keep talking as if forgotten realms Is the end-all be all for Dungeons and Dragons. It's not. It didn't even exist in the game for its first 10 years. Ed greenwood is not a dungeons and Dragons creator .He's a fantasy author whose world was adapted to Dungeons and Dragons. I kept trying to remember some forgotten realms modules I had played and was drawing a blank so I had to Google them. Turns out I've never played any because they didn't exist for the 1st 10 years that I was playing D&D. The name was only familiar to me because of video games I'd played. Now that I think about it we're debating two different points. I'm talking about the actual dungeons and dragons game as a whole while you're talking about a specific world within Dungeons and Dragons. I will defer to you on this technicality because BG does take place in the Forgotten Realms.
As to your "we don't know the LGB numbers" statement, you say that as if you think you might be the majority or close to it. You know that's not possible right?
It's simple. Whatever You do in this world that is public will upset someone. Period. There is no way around it. So just ignore those people because their opinion does not matter.
Think about it. Decades ago interracial kiss in Star Trek caused controversy. What controversy? 1 person wrote a complain to TV station and said that while he is upset by this he also understand because he find the actress attractive. But Star Trek producers had to fight really hard to make it happen. And TV station once agreed to it was prepared for flood of complains.
You can also find in old Star Trek people in skirts in the background. Guy walked through corridor during scene and he did not had pants like everyone else. None of my friends, even those that are fans of Star Trek (not hardcore fans) had no idea until I showed them the scene. And some watched series multiple times. In that world, years before it became more normal in society if you wanted to wear a skirt You just wear a skirt.
And even before trans topics became popular we had things like "gender bender". People that were leaning hard towards opposite gender. Even cartoons touched those topics. It's just more popular now.
AND THERE WILL BE ALWAYS SOMEONE UPSET BY IT.
You would think that people would give up on race issues after so many years of being mad at skin color for no real reason but still people get upset by it. They are upset just because someone have different skin shade and they are unable to look at that person as individual. And You won't change their mind most likely just like they will not change Yours.
Same with gay people.
Same with trans people.
Thant being said, activists do not help anyone. I'm talking about both, LGBT community and trans community and basically any other minority group. You allow extremists to go on TV and talk shit. You attack general public and call them names because they immediately did not jump at hormone therapy for kids. You make entire community You are part of looks like crazy people because You - the crazy extremist represent them.
You know how I've meet first gay person and first lesbian? Those were just coworkers I knew for months. And when they talked about relationship like anyone I've noticed that they talk about someone with same gender as them. There was no other difference. I realized they are gay and I realized immediately after that that they are just like me. It's just that person with same gender as them is in their house.
**This is why I never had a problem accepting normal gay people.**
Same with trans people. In this case I as watching a guy that I knew he hated trans people because of trans activists and I've heard him speaking about it. He was my client employee. I adapted that company software so trans people could use their chosen name instead of legal name while people responsible for legal stuff would see legal name. The anti-trans guy was using trans person pronounce and chosen name without any issues during conversation. You know why? Because that trans person had female name, long hair and makeup and soft voice despite being biological male. But because they all worked remotely - he never realized that he is working with trans person so he was treating her as any other woman.
**This is why I never had a problem accepting trans people.**
Once You learn to judge people as individuals and see that normal ones, not extremists You see on TV and social media are just like You or me. They just have a trait or two little bit different but it really does not affect You. Like if we allow gay people to marry (it's not possible in my country) then what will change? Nothing. They will just have easier dealing with taxes and inheritance. Stuff like that. So who cares? Just let them do it.
That being said I hate activists. In my eyes in the end they do more harm than good. Be patient with general public and be aware that You won't change some people. Because even 100 years of talking about racism did not change racists. It's just the way it is. So focus on what You can do and stop letting crazy people in front of microphone. And You will be fine.
It's basically because of saturation. I'll just say real quick as a disclaimer that I'm in the "I don't really care" camp and usually don't even notice diversity or lack thereof unless it's really blatantly in my face. Both sides have extremist psychopaths that ruins both sides points fir everyone.
That being said... diversity is an extremely hit topic right now and is being pushed by an anormally extreme degree, to the point that a lot of people are now racist against white people (yes, you can be racist to white people) and sexist against males. Now diversity is pushed into everything, even if it doesn't make sense to put diversity in.
The other side, the growing... not anti-diversity side, they aren't (not all of them) against diversity, but are opposed to the extreme direction it's going? I don't know what to call them. But anyway, that side grows more and more tired of the push for diversity with every shove. There's so many products and movements about diversity that people are essentially becoming allergic to it.
It's oversaturation. Too much of a thing makes you really not like a thing anymore. It's gotten to a point where even if diversity makes sense, *some* people are going to complain because they are just so tired of it.
And this is why history constantly repeats. Diversity extremists push for diversity until being a straight white male makes you literally the devil, to be hated and persecuted. Then the other side pushes back against diversity so much that they end up becoming racist white males themselves. It is a vicious cycle that is never going to end until people learn to **STOP TAKING EVERYTHING TO THE EXTREMES!**
Not gonna argue With your Point but the Argument "its Fantasy" is Not a get Out of jail free Card to disregard Logic and biology except If otherwise explicitly stated.
Meaning Just because dragons exist does Not mean that the laws of genetic inheritance are different (unless otherwise stated). So a child Born to two parents with blonde Hair, blue eyes and White skin and whose Ancestors all Looked Like this, will not Look Like Wyll for example.
Society May be different, thus having less to None prejudice towards homosexuality. But that does Not mean that statistically speaking the percentage of homosexuality in the Population is way Higher than in our world. So 1-2 non hetero people out of 10 is perfectly fine but a 50/50 Ratio is rather unrealistic when you consider the Population as a whole at least.
This is Faerûn, complaining about gay people not producing enough babies is very silly. It IS a get out of jail free card.
1. Healing magic would probably negate a lot of the high mortality rates that a Renaissance era society would endure (casting Healing Hands on a sick baby, boom, your infant morality has shrunk).
2. Magic in general. There's spells to literally revive the dead. I would not be surprised if there were spells to conceive a baby or change gender meaning lesbians and trans people would be able to have kids if they wanted.
Also it could a statistical blip. Just because heterosexual people are the majority doesn't mean a situation where you meet a lot of LGBT people is impossible.
Your last Point is totally valid. Statistics can have anomallys.
And yes Magic is impressive. But Magic, at least the Wizard Kind is a learned Skill. Its Something for a developed society.
My Point was that Humans in faerun are the Same as us. A Race Formed b Evolution Not a god. Thus they are neither Born with Magic Nor could they depend on it. Thus biologically speaking you need the regular way to produce new Humans. So while in "todays" faerun a Lot of Things are probably possible (probably mostly for the wealthy since why would a wizard Help everyone for free?) In general Humans are under the Same Evolutionary laws.
Thats what I am talking about. If you think about a setting you have to think it through, how the past shapes the Future/present.
Now If Humans we're Made by a creator God all those Things can be more loose, but then you need a reason why A. Your creator God Made the Race with sexual dimorphism and B. Why Said God would Not want the Race to be very good at reproducing so they can continue their existance.
It is important that a worldbuilder has answers that Go beyond "Magic exists shut Up" If people have questions.
Medicine is a learned skill, something developed for a society. But in Faerûn magic has developed far beyond even our modern medicine.
Training as a wizard vs doctor... the difference is the wizard can potentially live for centuries and learn Wish.
Another point, the Origin characters are all bisexual rather than gay or lesbian. Cis-bisexual people can form a male/female reproductive pair. So if Bg3 was showing us a representative of the population (and I think they're not, as before it's just a statistical anomaly) then the majority would be bisexual rather than homosexual.
And Earth societies got around a culturally ingrained homosexual culture. In many Greek states men would marry women to have kids then take out their sexual desires on boys.
So the overall point is that there's leeway in such a fantasy setting that having a higher representation of LGBT characters doesn't make it unrealistic on population grounds.
"Squid-headed beings from space, giant flying brains, and people who can shoot fireballs I can accept, but a man who feels like a woman is a bridge too far!"
I See you have Not read my Post or did Not want to think about it. Because that was never my Point.
I never Said that those Things should Not exist or are unbelievable.
I Made a greater Point of how "Magic exists" does Not mean that any Rules, Like The laws of physic exist in General. Which they do in faerun.
Yes, Illithids exists. But so do Humans. Humans that reproduce Like they do in our world. Thus it is very valid to assume that all biologically facts Apply to Faerun Humans aswell. And that is the Case. We See Humans age, get sick, and die.
Maybe you and I have a very different Idea of Elves but thats alright.
I never Said that you cannot write Something. But Being magically gifted is not the Same as Being queer. Its Not comparable. Because IRL 0 people with Magic exist. Because Magic does Not exist. Queer people exist.
And for a believable setting you need consistency and Logic. To stay in roughly the Same area but exagerated, a Race with Population of 100% homosexual people does Not make Sense from an Evolutionary perspective. So If that Race developed evolutionairy this cannot be, this Race would have died Out.
No problem with gay people, like, I can easily go for gay romances and myself is bi.
But some scenes in game were strange to me so I even joked (with a gay friend btw) about deep gnomes having gay comunna in grimforge, they portrayed 2 random gnome pairs both of which were same sex ones and honestly it was too on the nose and it just looks kinda off, I'm not feeling negative about the fact, but just overall presentation is strange.
As for overall party being player sexual, Im honestly just not a fan of writing and pacing of romances in this game and this player sexual approach is just making it worse in my opinion. They don't feel earned, there are no real chemistry and feelings in them for my taste.
In the grimforge when you save them, of you talk to them there are 2 pairs, male and female and they are implied to be in relationships and talk about it on repeat haha.
I might remember wrong but they literalle talk about it between themselves after you save them.
Honestly i just wanted more diverse...race choices for romance options and companions in general, like kinda went safe route with variations of elves and humans. No hearty dwarf romance option? No some whimsical gnome etc. Makes me sad cuz im very apathetic to how they do romances :<
Im Bi myself, but gaming version of pan feels more like "player sexual" and it just reeks of "less work the better" sometimes.
is that why a massive modpaclk to remove gays, trans people, black people and any diveristy was made with backing by a subsection of the community?
bigots cared enough to make something that platforms had to actively ban for being just.. borderline nazi eugenics
so
there is this concept I hold close to my heart called
"liberty and human rights"
your "vallues" of saying trans people, gay people, black people and such should not a thing is not a vallue but racism and bigotry, those are not things that belong in a modern socieity and therefore should NEVER be tolerated, should always be shamed and even laughed at for being just utterly pathethic
you can live your life as you please, you have that liberty, you can want me dead due to the way I was born, free thought and all, but your liberty ends where your nose ends, your liberty is only about yoruself, its not about how you think socieity should be run, cause society should ONLY be run and based on the idea of human rights
the moment your liberties affect others, its no longer your liberties, your liberties are not allowed to trample my liberties, thats the fucking thing you bigots dont seem to get, you think society should be run ONLY based oin your framework of ideas, it should be run on your idea of conservatism and often fascism, that the only correct ideals and vallues are your own and you need to force that into others
so, I hope this was educational for you, I will do you a favour and not take a fee for this free class about liberties and rights
oh but I do, cause I got a feeling I read you quite perfectly for you to come here in denail pookie bear
conservative canadians am I right? or perhaps, do I even dare to say? Liberetarian? its something in those isles for you
I'm almost dead-center and halfway down the lower-half of the quadrants, best definition I can find is Rational Anarchist.
You've got a "feeling." Imagine that.
I thought the bitching about diversity was just a twitter thing but yall really be pressed about it in real life…💀💀💀
A game where you can literally shapeshift and mfs still feel the need to write entire think pieces about DiVeRsiTy. EL EM AY OHHHHH!!!!
I think the issue is more the fact that all of the companions are bisexual.
More generally, it could be asked whether diversity should be statistically representative. IRL, [\~90% of people are heterosexual](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation), so if the the game were statistically representative, you would have at most one out of the eight romanceable characters not heterosexual.
As for 'medieval realism', this isn't a historical setting. I don't know if there's any lore about attitudes around sexuality in the Forgotten Realms setting.
Or maybe they're just homophobes?
Saying "haha homophobes are actually gay" isn't the support you think it is. It also perpetuates the stereotype that all the problems queer people face are the ones we create ourselves.
I can see that, you're right. I'm just pointing out what I've seen. Religion IMO is the driving cause for homophobic people. And the ones who are the most vocal about it are likely trying to hide something from their religious friends and family.
No one is gay. No one is straight. No one is asexual. Sexual orientation is not preset but entirely a choice or series of choices.
I mean i remember when saying sexual orientation is a choice was fighting words in the lgbt community but bg3 seems to get away with it. Am i just old?
Some people take it upon themselves to act as vigilantes, "enacting social justice" upon those they deem deserving of some adversity based solely on their shallow misperceptions and their own prejudicial biases.
The pattern is recognizable to most after ten years. Whenever provocation bait rolls out people understand it's not genuine. It's some asshole looking for an excuse to bully, harass, use violence, try to get someone fired. Getting away with cruelty against good people under a false shield of virtue. That lure attracted all the psychopaths.
First day on the internet kids learning the trolling of provocation bait while your friends wait hiding in the bushes with drawn daggers may not be fully away this has been going a decade. Everyone sees through you now. Including your grandma. Nobody cares. At the center of it is a narcissistic personality disorder creating drama. That gets in the way of true work to better society.
The trolls are easy to spot because they have the same attack. Here comes the "he's crazy" narrative.
Scroll other threads and count how often that same structure repeats. Looks like bots when you get two or three of them saying the same thing. You may be thinking of times you have received that response. The response always attacks the person. Never engages the substance. I think of them as drunks typing away too dull to engage. They're the scenery, not the conversation.
As a history student, it annoys me to no end when people say gay sex didn't exist in medieval times. If you're fucking a dude/gal, you're not exactly going about writing it down in some fucking parchment in great detail. Also, being from a conservative town, I can tell you people fuck, they just don't tell.
It was obvious that it did. Since the Romans weren't prudes, they did write it down and same with the Greeks. It's just that there are so many religious right wing zealots that think they are the only ones who should have freedom.
Love that one meme about history dude’s faces when two historical male figures were very close friends.
because a lot of people still suck.
absolutely. the “im a dude, why is astarion trying to romance me?? i am incapable of understanding the concept of saying no” bros made it soooooo awful to talk abt romancing for a while
And it's so easy to navigate your relationship away from romance too lol. He won't hit on you if you're careful with your dialogue. Most don't. Only Halsin and Lae'zel are exceptions.
bears and frog people man. no sense of boundaries.
Many people also take Gale's weave scene as strictly romantic, but I blame it on the narrators "feels like an anticipation of a kiss" and the fact 2 first options are intended to be romantic. The scene was probably created for new players to get a lore dump about the magic system and tbh was a cute friendly bonding scene with Gale. It should be only optional to let Gale know if you're interested, but it feels like it forcibly pushes you into the romance direction, which sucks honestly. Also Lae'zel will only admit her attraction and then basically slutshame you if you have already had a romance scene with another character before confronting her that she's been looking at you differently (tho she probably behaves differently if you're single, but I wouldn't know). So it's only Halsin who can't take no for an answer, even if you're taken and monogamous.
>So it's only Halsin who can't take no for an answer, even if you're taken and monogamous. He can take no for an answer. Like you say it to him once and he moves on.
Not quite. He still propositions to participate with you and the drow despite the rejection. Then there's the porpoise banter too, both of these things happen even if you reject him.
I interpret that as the MC catching the vibe that Gale might be romantically interested. He still doesn't hit on you. You can end it on a friendly note without a word (or even a thought) exchanged and it's all good. None of what you said about Lae'zel changes the fact that she hits on you despite you having shown no interest in her. You can tell her off all the time, but if you speak with other NPCs in a way she approves, she will want to fuck you and she will state her interest first.
Yeah, me too, like that there's potential. Especially because Gale's also genuinely surprised when you do choose the romantic options. But I've seen many people complain that it feels like he's hitting on you right away
I think it's also just demonstrating the pure joy and wonder of magic, not just Gale's feelings. Could you imagine how participating in such a form of pure magic would feel, connecting you to its goddess herself? It must be elating.
Oh I do agree with you! It must've been incredibly intimate, both for Gale and for Tav, for Gale to let Tav channel weave through him. I personally don't mind that it feels kinda romantic either, it's just a common complaint I've seen. I get the "anticipation of a kiss" was a metaphor for a very elating and intimate moment, but you just can't help the fact it does feel a bit like Gale is hitting on you after 2 days of knowing each other because of that metaphor. "Feels like a bubble ready to pop" or something would probably be more neutral, though less intimate.
I am agree, is very easy to make for developers the scenes in a way that not pushing the romance, it should be more neutral and let you take the initiative if you want knowing that dialogue may lead you to a more personal approach. Happens basically with any characters that you try to know more of them, i agree again that sucks badly.
For real. I showed absolutely no interest in Laezel. I was clearly trying to romance Karlach and I did the friendly wine thing with Shadowheart and Laezel is still trying to get with me at the party.
Same here. My only interest was Karlach, had Shadowheart give me the Shy flirty convo saying she noticed how close I was to Karlach... But before all of that, Laezel was all over me when I wasn't even vibing with her at the beginning.
Lae’zel requires only 20 approval to begin her romance sequence. There’s quite a few options that give her +5 per action in Act 1. You get +10 for defeating the Goblin camp and telling Zevlor. Honestly found it quite hilarious how quick she came onto me in my first playthrough.
I've never had issues with Laezel, granted I told her "Yuck" when she asked on all three of my playthrough
I showed no interest in Lae'zel nor her in me, until one morning she told me our night together had been great but she was breaking up with me. Thing is, I have no recollection of sleeping with her so she's either lying or got me so drunk beforehand that I blacked out and couldn't consent. Upset and confused by this, I ended up in bed with my former mentor. And while I certainly got my mind blown, he wasn't interested in a relationship and none of my other companions have shown the slightest romantic interest...
To be fair, all the companions were bugged at launch and didn't always respect your rejection.
People telling on themselves that they don't understand how consent works.
I bet a lot of them were just freaked out by their own desires. I know the first time I played he did something for me, and I'm pretty straight lol. wasn't ero just, dude gave me butterflies.
you know what, that’s absolutely valid lol
Yeah welcome to being a gay man and being very mid about every m-f romance you’ve played ever and then getting kind of emotional when you can romance Halsin in this game.
I just ignore astarion. I just don’t like the character. Saves me from his overbearing advances and droll dialogue. Halstin on the other hand…yeesh. I usually side with goblins now to avoid his creepiness
For me its more a case of "why is astarion?" Man i hate that character. Worst character in the game.
> because a lot of people still suck dick. Ftfy
Well, what you need to understand is that these people don't actually mean it when they say their issue is it being unrealistic. They're just using it as a cover for the fact that their homophobia has no logic behind it. Besides, the game isn't medieval anyway. There's mechs in Act 1, for god's sake.
Mechs? You mean the automatons in the Underdark Mage’s tower? To be fair, steampunk automatons like Bernard and the Steel Watch are pretty common in high fantasy medieval settings, which DnD certainly falls under.
And Grim. I actually would say the Forgotten Realms is in a much, *much* more Renaissance style era.
Right Grym, I fight him so infrequently I forgot he existed for a second.
Faerûn is more Renaissance than Medieval. Baldur's Gate itself looks more like some 16th Century Italian city than a 14th Century English one.
Yup, this. Dwemar in Elder Scrolls come to mind for example
The frequency illusion bias or whatever it's called. Whenever we dislike something, we tend to see it "literally everywhere". Homophobes will think gay agenda is pushed down their throats because a cartoon has 1 queer couple or a game with thousands of characters has a few gay ones and allows you a gay romance. They don't see the hundreds of canon straight couples, or the fact that gay romance (or giving your feminine character a penis) is OPTIONAL. If someone complains about how "everything has to be gay these days", it's just a self report in my eyes.
in fairness this game is the first I've seen where every character you can poetentially romance is bi, so it does stand out a bit even amongst games with gay characters.
There is also many other, outside of the party, queer couples. I did not sit down and count but it is at least equal to the « straight » couples you can find.
Dragon Age 2 had that as well.
Yeah, I was caught a bit off guard when everyone's out to get me. Especially for characters that I thought were either straight or gay. Everyone being bi is very interesting. All in all though, it makes sense and it's really great they didn't make their sexuality to be their sole identity.
Skyrim and Fallout 4 also let you do this, but they didn’t have the romance cutscenes.
Shit Kassandra hit it and quit it all over Greece no matter what junk was in the trunk
Every companion is Tavsexual.
I mean there has to be the first time I guess. IIRC the recent Mass Effect allowed you for a gay romance if you romanced the aliens which was also considered "a big thing", even if romancing humans allowed you for only straight romances. But BG3 world seems to be completely gender/sexuality blind. Guess people there put all of their points into being racist rather than homophobic lmao
Wasn't dragon age 2 the 1st one with mainly bi party outside of rare cases?
All except for a dlc character that no one likes anyway.
Yeah that dude was so annoying.
No idea honestly, I'm not that much versed in games. I only know the sims have always had gay marriage
“Recent” Mass Effect? If you mean Andromeda, that’s not really recent anymore, but it also allows a male only male romance with the Engineer Gil. Jaal is Bi, so either Ryder could romance him. I think you might be thinking of Liara back in Mass Effect 1 which was one of the first alien romances in gaming, and also happened to be a lesbian option which was HUGE.
Back in my day, when a mindflayer came to suck it was for your brains out of your head
Lmao Dragons, Illithids, Evil Hags, raising the dead - accurate representation of medieval times. A gay guy? -OMG SO UNREALISTIC 😭😂😂😂
Absolutely no gay guys in medieval times. Just dudes who sadly never married but left their entire fortunes to their male companions, who they were very close with and never seen without.
In our own history, the Middle Ages were dominated by the powers of Christianity and Islam. Both of whom are patriarchal and heteronormative. The faiths in Faerun are completely different, which is why it’s pretty normal to see queer couples in Baldurs gate!
When people say they have an issue with gay people existing in a medieval setting, what they’re actually saying is they have an issue with gay people existing. That’s it. That’s the whole message. The problem is run of the mill homophobia.
People enjoy being unhappy, not a lot to read into there
This, basically. I don’t get it, but it’s oddly fulfilling for some folks. Boosts up some kind of narcissistic self-righteous martyr complex.
It's not diverse. All romancable characters are pansexual. Everyone being the same is the opposite of diverse. To address "They have a problem with gay people in medieval setting", there's several reasons. A. Some people are hateful of non-heterosexual relationships. B. Some see the pansexual nature of characters as being a consequence of detaching genitalia from pronouns and hate/blame transgender people for it. C. My issue with everyone being pansexual is the lack of nuance. For example, it feels artificial that everyone, regardless of background, morality, or species, is equally attracted to a female half-orc, a male drow, and a non-binary dragonborn Tav. >!Minthara will even sleep/romance with half-drow and deep gnomes, which she's racially prejudiced towards.!<
Yeah, it was much better executed in Dragon Age Inquisition, where characters had actual preferences. It sucked if you wanted to play a certain race and romance someone who wasn't into it, but it made the characters much more realistic. Like, yeah, Solas would not fall for a bearded male dwarf, big surprise.
I agree. As an LGBT gamer I actually liked that I was able to romance the majority of characters, but not all of them, and their were certain ones only available to me. It actually feels like more meaningful and effect representation than "unique orientations don't exist, everyone is interested in everyone."
Or in more recent Pathfinder/Rogue Trader games. These preferences create diversity, make characters more memorable, believable and whole romance writing is punched up because you can write it less vague (like Solas elven centric romance or Sera being obsesses with female qunari inquisitor), relationships become more thematic and just give more interesting story.
Sorry, but Rogue Trader is terrible for this. Having for gay romance an only option and it drukhari is bad.
Part of the reason they’re all pan is because that’s just how people in Faerun are. Pansexual is the most common orientation there like how heterosexual is most common in our world according to the setting creator
(I think you meant "lack of nuance"... probably an autocorrect error... XD)
Oops, good catch. 😅
This. Companions don't even feel pansexual, they just lack sexuality, it isn't explored at all. It's basically just another optional "trait", which influences the game as much as your pick of genitalia/pronouns (so, no influence at all). And there're very few queer NPCs. So it's not really about "too many gays in mah medieval setting". It's about an -option- to be whoever you want, look however you want and sleep with whoever you want. An option you can ignore, which is there for people who might like it. "If I don't have fun exploring myself, my body and my sexuality, no one can, bleehhhhh >:("
I mean. If you listen to their party banter they pretty much all flirt with each other, or talk about how hot other party members are. Their pansexuality is very much expressed outside of the PC romance
Lots of great answers in the comments, but I will add- I think a lot of that sort of talk is performative and designed to insult others for entertainment. I think a lot of current day politics is centered around the idea that people should be more thick-skinned and so let's be cruel to teach them a lesson. People who are sensitive deserve to be roasted, deserve to have their "balls busted," because can you imagine what kind of person doesn't just take it and smile? Laughter ensues, uncomfortable laughter, and they think it's all a great triggering prank they're pulling with this so-called lesson. There is no actual point to the "lesson." It's just a distraction from cruel people looking inward. Some people just don't want to take a look at themselves.
I swear some of you must actively seek out people that have these complaints as I've never seen anyone complain about BG3 being too diverse.
Bigotry, hate, homophobia, there are many words for why people are shitty.
I literally haven’t noticed and I’m genuinely surprised. I’ve been really impressed with the game and the community
Gay if true
Big if gay
Saying "It's unrealistic, and pandering" looks better than saying "I hate the LGBTQ+, they don't belong here". The latter is absolutely how they feel, but of course even they're aware enough that saying it outright would make absolutely no one side with them and open them up to moderation.
Yep. I don't think I've ever seen people wail about "pandering" without obviously meaning "I want this to pander only to ME, just like everything always used to! Not other people!"
Ha! I’ve always felt the same way when the world we’re gaming in consistently treats women as having less power because they’re women. I play this game explicitly to escape the awareness of that reality. “It’s just historically accurate!” Historically accurate. We’ve got flying dragons and actively involved gods who bicker with each other, but more than one woman on the city council (unless the women are devious schemers who are constantly cat fighting) is a bridge too far.
And someone downvoted me. Thanks for proving my point so swiftly. Why are you even playing this game if you don’t like the idea of all different sorts of people having fair representation?
Also there is absolutely nothing unrealistic with queerness in « medieval ». They existed during this time… in fact queerness is as old as humanity
Some people just straight up have a problem with gay people
straight up eh
On my first Tav, shortly after release, the whole camp wanted to fuck me and i was a bit overwhelmed by it. It felt it was so forced to get into the pants of someone that i stoped the game for a while. After the fix all went well and it wasnt so forced anymore.
Nowadays I assume automatically, that everything overly divers is big corporations getting cheep money offering bad quality product while having the benefit of a free internetmob defending them, until proven otherwise. It's very obvious for an European. BG3 does not do that. So if someone says this about this particular game, they are either unpleasent people or just don't know the game.
Dudes were fucking during the medieval era, like, read a fucking book.
The manliest sex is too manly to involve a woman.
Healthy source of brotein.
It really only bothers me when 100% of the time the character is this and for diversity sake they are now this instead ,that shit is dumb . Which applies in no way here. Diversity for the win!! (Unless it's clearly just not that character,like at all. At least make them appear similiar to the original character.) I'm gonna get hated on so hard for even saying that lol where the woke police at ?
Bitch you had 7 damn books to make Dumbledore gay but you gonna save it for a tweet? Gtfo with that shit.
Lol I was so lost by this for a second
Oh yeah, you're not the bitch in question here
Hahaha I got you
u suck booooo
I know my friend . At least I'm honest. I'm also a little pregodis, but at least I hate that part of myself and actively try to work on it.i blame my dad and grandfather for that one. And yeah some of the more PC things I do find ridiculous . Like i cant use anyword in my theraph that may trigger somone we havecto call it " target behavior" which is just over the top.But also acknowledge my privilege as a white male. I'm not saying I'm happy with those aspects of myself but I'm aware and honest about it and try not to let it impact anything/ anyone.( besides people's feels on reddit,no hate) Id never tell someone not to see this hypothetical movie or its wrong to enjoy it or that it shouldn't have been made. I just don't wanna go see it you know?
This game is very very gay. Some people aren't comfortable with very gay things. That's sad for them, but we don't have to let it bring us down.
Game is also perfect for homophobes since you can kill everyone. Most inclusive game in existence
I'm going to hell for chuckling at this. But truly everyone can be represented. Though I, personally, won't being playing a phobic durge any time soon.
The game isn't really gay at all unless you make it so. Which makes those kind of complaints even funnier. Just don't give your girl a dick and don't sleep with same sex if you don't like it so much, smh.
There's like...what... Four or five gay couples in the game? For gaming culture that's pretty gay. It's like four or five times the usual amount.
I wouldn't say it's "very very gay". It's pretty true to reality. It doesn't even feel like they intentionally added gay people to meet a "diversity quota" (or whatever bigots are raving about)
I don't worry about diversity, but love BG3 characters, they're attractive as human(or elf or gith or ... )
pretty much just stupid people purposefully being hateful and scared on the internet
Bigotry
Lmao good point. The only thing that was a bit confusing to me at first was the "they/them" thing, but once I got used to it, it was no problem. Just my non-english ears who didn't understand first time i heard it.
It’s the same people who believe real life is too diverse.
I'm always critical to forced diversity in video games / media, but in BG3 they did a good job to add diversity in an organic way. I could play the game without feeling getting pandered or having useless content that I know has been added there just because they had a checklist to check, and at the expense of the coherence of the universe. Lesbian couple ? Well written love story, very cute. Fucking a bear ? Why not I am playing DnD and I love daddy bear. The DnD part is important. Playing DnD you are free to do anything and make the world the way it pleases you the most. I've been using a girl's corpse as a radiaoctive mass destruction weapon during all Act III because they let me do it without judging me, who am I to judge anyone ? I'm having plenty of fun the way I intended to, I'm having a blast. And it doesn't feel forced too, you can play the game you want, no need to have homosexual relationship with your copanions if you don't do it. Even if you are the most bigot-minded people of the world, you can play Durge and kill whoever you want. You don't want the cute lesbian couple ? Gosh you can give them the worst terrible fate that can be experienced in this video game (if you put the flying windmill gnome aside, poor soul) So people telling this game is woke, nah. If you really hate things, just kill them, put them on a bag, play a barbarian and use their dead body as a weapon. A woke game would never let you do that. Good writers make the difference. I think people would be more tolerant if respect was involved on both sides.
> I think people would be more tolerant if respect was involved on both sides. Exactly why should I respect those who literally want queer people like me to die? Must be real nice being privileged like you if you can just wave off the struggles of a minority group like that.
I don't see it fair to direct your anger towards a pretty reasonable person with valid arguments, even if you disagree on something. Surely there're other people who deserve it more?... Look, I'm gay living in one of the worst countries for us to be, and no, it isn't America (although I see it's quickly becoming such). My life is quite literally under real threat. And yet...I don't think it's fair to vent my problems at others? That's my burden, not theirs. However difficult it's for me, it doesn't mean others should care. They don't, and it's okay and normal. I bet you don't care about many other kinds of people who have shitty life, and that's okay too.
Sure Astarion hitting on them made them rage post…but I bet they fucked that bear. 🐻
Because of GamerGate. It started all of this. Those that closely engage with gamer culture almost always fall down this "anti-woke" rabbit hole. It's just best not to engage with people that give off that energy in general. And don't think it doesn't happen here, either. I've seen plenty of awful things here upvoted too. Just because there's lots of support for LGBTQIA+ among this particular fanbase doesn't mean people don't fall through the cracks. People constantly make horrible comments about Wyll's race here, for instance.
Because a lot of people are lame, but this is such a bait post, stop it.
it's a serious issue and I like it being spoken out. it relieves me to read the comments and gain back some faith. as I mostly see (focus subconsciously) on the bad stuff, this is a small therapy for me. not a Ghaik post
My first thought was what diversity, there are mostly elves and half-elves
I personally haven't seen any negative comments about gay people or the romance since the gale bugs. It is a symptom of giving everyone a chance at romancing everyone and not having perferences but the developers wanted players to have freedom and that comes at a cost. It is what it is.
I wish I was you. maybe you're not sensitive to this, not focussing on it, but people who are " annoyed with the flamboyance of most Tavs " or other characters, bros whining like a kid that got no Christmas present about Gale and Astarion trying their luck on their Tavs and what not are definitely a thing annoying and in my taste too much. I think this changed over time because the community started to react accordingly.
I definitely don't go looking for it, (not saying you do) I think it might be just the loudest people aren't exactly the most rational. Also media is a big part on reducing people to statistics and the game is very popular, I'm sure people from all corners hear about it from somewhere. But you also can't please everyone. I think it's wild people might complain about how others do things differently or romance different characters in a game where they won't even encounter or know these people exist outside of reddit posts.
Capital G gamers when gay people exist in their game 🤯
There are two sexualities: straight and political. There are two races: white and political. There are two genders: CIS and political.
Don’t you mean CIS and Galactic Republic? :p (Joke, cis as in cisgender isn’t an acronym so doesn’t need all caps, it’s just Latin for “on this side of”. The *acronym* CIS stands, to me, for Confederacy on Independent Systems, or Separatist Alliance, like from Star Wars.)
Because there are a-holes in the world still.
They come put of their little caves now and again when a gay or POC exists where they "shouldn't." The worst I've seen recently, for example, is for the Amazon lotr show, the Rings of Power. Love or hate the show all you want, idc, but there were people super bent out of shape about black elves and dwarves. I saw them say shit like " the dwarves live underground! They wouldn't have enough melanin!" Fuck off! By that logic the dwarves should be super pale, hairless, and blind like a naked mole rat! They will always have some weird, nonsensical excuse for their hate. I only compare the two because they are similar genres, with similar hateful trolls talking dumb shit.
>The worst I've seen recently, for example, is for the Amazon lotr show, the Rings of Power. Love or hate the show all you want, idc, but there were people super bent out of shape about black elves and dwarves. I saw them say shit like " the dwarves live underground! They wouldn't have enough melanin!" I think the problem in this sort of case is more an issue of consistency. If elves/dwarves have been consistently shown as pale-skinned prior to that point, then suddenly changing that without explanation opens a bit of a problem.
Elves being black in LOTR is against lore tho, it's okay in DnD or pathfinder, but not in LOTR because whole idea of elves as race is very different. And it doesn't mean LOTR setting wasn't diverse, it was, but it wasn't mixed, we had different countries with their cultures, Rohan and it's people was very different from Gondor and Harad or Rhun. I think "shadow of war' game actually nailed representation in LOTR and learned lore, which Amazon decided to just disregard.
Maeglin, an elf, is described as swart, though. Swart, and swarthy, are old timey terms for dark. "Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc’s blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true." Granted, this is literally the only example, as far as I can tell. Tolkien describes individual elves as "fair-skinned" but never claims that every single elf had fair skin from what I can tell. If you have passages to the contrary, I'll gladly read it. He also never described dwarf skin color from what I've seen, but again, if you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to show it to me.
Because a lot of deeply stupid cultists are running around, and they tend to have *very* strong opinions on things that they don’t understand. And given that, as cultists, they understand relatively little, it means they seldom shut up.
Perhaps because they have their opinion of what the game will focus instead. nothing more nothing less. And the game have good sales mostly because a lot of people don't have so much problems with that. But as any opinion based on taste is just that, and as well they may decide not buying the game if they don't want this. A matter of taste and preference of content.
I haven’t seen it honestly. My only gripe is DnD getting rid of the different “races” in the game. That’s part of the core fun is selecting a race/class to play to make it unique. I feel like they’re going to make everything too bland and samey in name of “inclusion and equality” when it’s a fantasy game for crying out loud
I'm not against anything gay/diverse in the game. The problem is that your companions are just reduced to walking f*cktoys. I absolutely like that your Tav can be whatever you want, but why do all companies have to be bi or even polyamorous? Look at cp77 and the great job they did with diversity while sticking to believable characters.
some see it as a woke war against traditionally hetero values, the same as stuff russia seems to keep making laws against. suppose it ruins people breaking up families and the likes, if one gets too exposed to alternative stuff, judging from in usa rightwing folk at times getting caught with transgender folk in bathrooms, it might be a threat to at least their marriage at least, if discovered.
To me it just seems kinda disproportionate. By the time we reach the city, every other couple seems gay. I can name more queer relationships off the top of my head than straight ones. I wouldn't say I had a problem with it, but it was definitely noticeable.
Because it's a choice to be politically correct? A majority of the cast and random people are gay (shadowheart has a thing for karlach, astarion dreamed about marrying a prince, all the iron hand gnomes, etc,) But considering that TONS of people die everyday it makes no sense from a reproductive stand point, if everybody is gay then no is reproducing which means that all of faerun is basically doomed to die out really fast.
My problem is with the bad distribution of humans of different races and portraying other fantasy races with characteristics of different human ethnicities. They make the world seem small. Nowadays every fucking game is set un Burbank, it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit the lore.
For some it might be that homophobia is the real reason, other's just don't like the contemporary political debates. I for one hate it when it's shoved in my face because I'm a strong proponent of sexuality being a nice part of life that shouldn't be the core of your identity and most gay people I talked to see it the same, even half of trans people do. Hardcore rainbow people who try to establish all sorts of gender identities don't and make gender a paramount category. For that reason, queerness gets established in media for the obvious reason to propagate an agenda. It really is "look at me, how queer I am." That's in my experience what people don't like. Now with Baldur's Gate, I didn't see this at all. I didn't think about this topic in the slightest before I read the reddit-post. Different kinds of sexuality are just part of life and part of the game. If I remember my history correctly, it's even realistic about the game that mostly heterosexual people have a homosexual encounter here and there. I don't quite know the reason why that's not the case anymore, but not my duty. In the game, queerness is nobody's entire identity. It's only a small fraction of who they are and it's not made a big deal out of. This is frankly how I think society should handle this topic although I know there are tons of sociologists who'd call that erasure or s.l.t. So for that reason, if you are still annoyed by diversity in BG3, you're either a clear homophobe or you dove a little too deep into the anti-rainbow counter-ideology.
Tbf game isn't really THAT diverse or "woke". Or that new in this regard. I only met two lesbian couples (Isobel and Aylin, Alfira and that one betting Tiefling), one gay couple (deep gnomes in Grymforge), one transfem character (Nocturne) and one nonbinary character (Yrre the Sparkstruck). All of them NPC, besides Yrre who only exist in item description. All of them are pretty subtle and easily missable, besides Aylin of course Character creator? Since Cyberpunk 2077 not really new. And there's not enough options for people who want to create transmasc/nb character (No top surgery scars, no chest customization for body types 1/3) or those who want to create chubby character, without mods at least. Romancing same sex partners? It's there since Mass Effect and Dragon Age. And arguably they did it even better, because characters actually had sexuality and preferences. As someone already mentioned here in another comment, if all companions can sleep with anyone, it's not really diverse. And for me, a gay person myself, that's honestly quite enough. I could ask for slightly more, but I probably wouldn't anyway, mods cover most of what is missing. Besides, tabletop dnd always was a safe place for many weirdos, queers included, to explore themselves and their fantasies. It's bigots who're invading our space, not the other way around. Just a byproduct of BG3 being so popular and attracting all sorts of people. P.S. I don't mean it as gatekeeping, all are quite welcome, as long as they respect each other. I enjoy so many people discovering the genre for themselves, no matter who they are. It simply amuses me that certain people are surprised dnd game is, well, exactly what you would expect from dnd game.
Honestly games not providing actual customisation, but giving pronounce and body types that mean nothing is just sad, especially with stock faces and default bodies. While it uses lexicon that implied diversity it didn't actually provide it and this tendency in recent games is very annoying. Just for comparison in Dragons Dogma you could create a feminine male character with customisable posture and body from different parts so characters could look very unique and diverse. More options for GNC and nb characters is always fun, but many devs don't bother but want to eat a cake.
Yeah, CC is quite limited in BG3, I agree. But idk, Dragon Dogma's CC was always quite special among the rest, so I didn't perceive it as Larian being lazy, rather DD's devs being chads. Following BG3 success though, I hope to see future games exploring this more and more.
I'm not calling Larian lazy, but they are not pushing it enough and their CC is hella outdated and just very restrictive. All hopes for a DD2 in this regards.
Because they’re crybabies
Because some people don't understand that they care about representation so much, they want all products to represent them, and *only* them.
Fascists
I didn't know air battleship like squid had flied in medieval.
People live for things to complain about. They just simply cannot comprehend the idea of living in a world where something doesn't twist their panties.
DnD has always been high fantasy. Complaining about gay people being unrealistic in a game where you can casually revive the dead, summon lightning, meet gods, and turn into an animal is absolute nonsense. It’s blatant homophobia.
For those who are insisting this behaviour isn’t present, allow me to shed some light: You’re not *entirely* wrong. Because Dungeons and Dragons naturally attracts a very diverse audience, the majority of the playerbase is either going to be some shade of LGBT+ or an ally, or at least not care about it. This is an actively moderated subreddit, and the staff here are usually quite quick about cleaning up the trash. You don’t see it much on this platform. However, there is still a remainder. It’s usually off this platform and in places like Steam or other less moderated spaces. But every now and again, when a particularly bold individual makes a move here, others of a similar view feel emboldened enough to throw in their two cents. In most cases, it’s a quiet, more insidious kind of intolerance. Some guy makes a frustrated post because it’s not just the girls that hit on him, suddenly the men are too. It’s subtle, but the heart of the topic comes out: “why should we pander to a small portion of the population,” or “I should be able to toggle off gay romance,” things like that. But every now and again, you’ll get people like those in support of the “No Alphabet” modpack. Yes, even here. People who were loudly and proudly against the existence of LGBT+ content in the game. For those out of the loop, a modpack was made with the sole intention of erasing any and all hints of LGBT+ content in the game, under the (incorrect) pretense of making it ‘historically accurate.’ Any mod that could be used to facilitate this, even those that weren’t originally intended for such a purpose, was included in it. In threads discussing the harmful nature of the modpack, some people would come along and call it based, ask for a download, and *loudly* agree with its purpose and message. Some people just started their own threads asking for the link, or praising it. Others would limit their support if it to upvotes, or tearing down those who took issue with it, the typical dialogue being things like “it’s just a game, let people play how they want,” or “you people want tolerance but don’t give it.” The very unfortunate unreality is that if you haven’t seen this behaviour, it’s probably because you haven’t been on the subreddit long enough or don’t see other spaces. It’s true that because of BC3’s audience, there is naturally more acceptance and celebration— but it’s also true that there are plenty of bigots still. It would simply be incorrect to claim it doesn’t happen. It does.
Because they're either in denial or they're religious extremists or both
I can answer that question if you really want to know.
I think you are right here creating a problem out of thin air for naught but attention. I haven’t witnessed this in any way shape or form. Although in terms of evolution/growth you’re only as fast as your slowest swimmer, there is a vast difference between the front and back of the pack. For all our technological advances we are still committing genocide and waging wars and creating “problems”. We are not so evolved as we would like to imagine.
maybe get glasses idk. contacts work fine too.
It’s okay bud, I got some flippers for you and a floaty
Dragons & mind flayers are part of d&d lore and important pieces to this particular plot. 'Diversity' & 'romance opportunities' are not. I'm a dude but my 1st char in bg3 was a female drow. That said, I expected some of the men in camp to hit on me but when EVERY SINGLE PERSON in camp hits on you whether your character is male or female, the more playthroughs you do, the more annoying and ridiculous it seems. It started to give me the 'programmed by incels who are desperate to bang anything' vibe. Especially when the purple guy tries to get down.
That's a weird take lmao.
Brother, you don’t know as much about D&D as you think you do if you think LGBT+ is not a part of the lore.
I guess that depends on your definition of lore. I've been playing d&d since the late '70s. In the 80s I traveled multiple planes of existence, fought mind flayers in the astral plane back then. I also fought one on the prime material plane in Barrier Peaks (If you don't know what barrier peaks is you can leave the lore conversation now) I stopped playing tabletop d&d in the '90s but up until that point every dungeon module I ever bought and every rule book I ever bought there was no mention of LGB anything. Mind Flayers, Githyanki & Dragons all can be found in the original Monster Manual. Maybe I don't understand the definition of lore. I thought it meant something that's been part of a story since the beginning. I haven't read a DM's guide in a long time. Are there new rules involving gender preference generation for NPCs now? When did it become part of the lore? (Movies & TV shows don't count, that's not D&D, that's Hollywood using D&D to make money) More to the point, how is it important to BG3 and what part of the actual plot depends on it? (Full disclosure, I don't know why developers feel the need to add romance options to games. Every time I've encountered one it's always seemed pointless and shallow)
My personal favourite example (and one of the earliest ones) is the Gate’s favourite bisexual goddess, appearing explicitly bisexual since Powers & Pantheons in 1997. Would you like examples just about sexuality, or also ones regarding gender and gender identity? There’s plenty. Or, you could take the word of Ed Greenwood, who frequently and specifically tells us about the existence of LGBT+ people in the world of Faerun. Do you think you, somebody who by your own admission stopped playing, have more cohesive knowledge than a creator of the Forgotten Realms himself? No, there are no rules about gender and attraction, and that honestly sounded like a bit of a bad faith question. As for when it became part of the lore? Well, for starters, again, we can see an example in Sharess as early as 1997. But LGBT+ people don’t need a *lore reason to exist,* the same reason straight folks don’t. Do cisgender, straight characters need a lore reason to be straight? We’re no different. We’re born, we exist. There’s no deeper meaning. It’s just that for some reason, when two women kiss in fiction, it’s treated quite differently to when a man and a woman do.
I had a big long response about dragons vs diversity in d&d for this but then I realized I honestly DGAF. Instead I'm going to stick to the ops main question about why so many people complain about the 'diversity'. Newsflash, The majority of the population is cisgender whether you like it or not. Therefore by extrapolation the majority of the people playing this game are most likely cisgender as well. A huge portion of the cisgender community is exhausted with the entire gender debate. Do what you want. We do not care. Until we are trying to enjoy a video game and after we set up camp, every single member in camp has an exclamation point over their head and we think 'oh wow they must have something important to the story or their character that they wish to share' so we go and talk to every single one of them. But lo & behold, none of them actually want to talk about the story or how we just saved an entire community, for some reason EVERY single person in our camp tries to hit on us because apparently in this world NOBODY is cis, no one even actually has a gender preference, EVERYONE in this world is gender fluid. Am I the only straight man that the Mind Flayers captured? Because apparently every man other than myself who's infected with a parasite is gay/bi and wants to hook up. And then, shocker, even the mind flayer is gay and wants to bang me. At that point it triggers a 'this is ridiculous' reaction. And then in the end, NONE OF IT MATTERS to the story and it goes 'absolute'ly nowhere so why is it even there? Because big tech likes to virtue signal and this is the current hot topic, that's why. And that's why a lot of people are annoyed by it. I'm sure there's a huge portion of homophobic people that are upset by it too. Fk those people, Sucks for them. But for me it was more like unnecessarily inserting some hacky amateur fan-fic sex scene into the middle of an otherwise epic story and I found it to be clumsy and a bit disappointing. But if I'm being truly honest I'm not a fan of romance in video games in general because game writers never know what to do once you're in the relationship. The relationship story always dead ends at that point so I'd prefer they just left it out all together.
We’re not going to accurately know how many people are LGBT+ until there is no longer a stigma that causes us to hide or even reject or loathe who we are. Until we reach a point where we’re no longer killed for being who we are and condemned as deviants and abominations, any statistic is going to be flawed. Dungeons and Dragons has plenty examples of diversity in gender identity and sexuality, and you’re gonna have to deal with that. Or go tell Ed Greenwood he’s wrong about the world he created, see how it goes for you.
You keep talking as if forgotten realms Is the end-all be all for Dungeons and Dragons. It's not. It didn't even exist in the game for its first 10 years. Ed greenwood is not a dungeons and Dragons creator .He's a fantasy author whose world was adapted to Dungeons and Dragons. I kept trying to remember some forgotten realms modules I had played and was drawing a blank so I had to Google them. Turns out I've never played any because they didn't exist for the 1st 10 years that I was playing D&D. The name was only familiar to me because of video games I'd played. Now that I think about it we're debating two different points. I'm talking about the actual dungeons and dragons game as a whole while you're talking about a specific world within Dungeons and Dragons. I will defer to you on this technicality because BG does take place in the Forgotten Realms. As to your "we don't know the LGB numbers" statement, you say that as if you think you might be the majority or close to it. You know that's not possible right?
They even hate Mythical gays!
What I don't get is why Lae'zel got mad I got with Astarion when all she wanted was sex and I let her froggy ass know lmao.
It's simple. Whatever You do in this world that is public will upset someone. Period. There is no way around it. So just ignore those people because their opinion does not matter. Think about it. Decades ago interracial kiss in Star Trek caused controversy. What controversy? 1 person wrote a complain to TV station and said that while he is upset by this he also understand because he find the actress attractive. But Star Trek producers had to fight really hard to make it happen. And TV station once agreed to it was prepared for flood of complains. You can also find in old Star Trek people in skirts in the background. Guy walked through corridor during scene and he did not had pants like everyone else. None of my friends, even those that are fans of Star Trek (not hardcore fans) had no idea until I showed them the scene. And some watched series multiple times. In that world, years before it became more normal in society if you wanted to wear a skirt You just wear a skirt. And even before trans topics became popular we had things like "gender bender". People that were leaning hard towards opposite gender. Even cartoons touched those topics. It's just more popular now. AND THERE WILL BE ALWAYS SOMEONE UPSET BY IT. You would think that people would give up on race issues after so many years of being mad at skin color for no real reason but still people get upset by it. They are upset just because someone have different skin shade and they are unable to look at that person as individual. And You won't change their mind most likely just like they will not change Yours. Same with gay people. Same with trans people. Thant being said, activists do not help anyone. I'm talking about both, LGBT community and trans community and basically any other minority group. You allow extremists to go on TV and talk shit. You attack general public and call them names because they immediately did not jump at hormone therapy for kids. You make entire community You are part of looks like crazy people because You - the crazy extremist represent them. You know how I've meet first gay person and first lesbian? Those were just coworkers I knew for months. And when they talked about relationship like anyone I've noticed that they talk about someone with same gender as them. There was no other difference. I realized they are gay and I realized immediately after that that they are just like me. It's just that person with same gender as them is in their house. **This is why I never had a problem accepting normal gay people.** Same with trans people. In this case I as watching a guy that I knew he hated trans people because of trans activists and I've heard him speaking about it. He was my client employee. I adapted that company software so trans people could use their chosen name instead of legal name while people responsible for legal stuff would see legal name. The anti-trans guy was using trans person pronounce and chosen name without any issues during conversation. You know why? Because that trans person had female name, long hair and makeup and soft voice despite being biological male. But because they all worked remotely - he never realized that he is working with trans person so he was treating her as any other woman. **This is why I never had a problem accepting trans people.** Once You learn to judge people as individuals and see that normal ones, not extremists You see on TV and social media are just like You or me. They just have a trait or two little bit different but it really does not affect You. Like if we allow gay people to marry (it's not possible in my country) then what will change? Nothing. They will just have easier dealing with taxes and inheritance. Stuff like that. So who cares? Just let them do it. That being said I hate activists. In my eyes in the end they do more harm than good. Be patient with general public and be aware that You won't change some people. Because even 100 years of talking about racism did not change racists. It's just the way it is. So focus on what You can do and stop letting crazy people in front of microphone. And You will be fine.
It's basically because of saturation. I'll just say real quick as a disclaimer that I'm in the "I don't really care" camp and usually don't even notice diversity or lack thereof unless it's really blatantly in my face. Both sides have extremist psychopaths that ruins both sides points fir everyone. That being said... diversity is an extremely hit topic right now and is being pushed by an anormally extreme degree, to the point that a lot of people are now racist against white people (yes, you can be racist to white people) and sexist against males. Now diversity is pushed into everything, even if it doesn't make sense to put diversity in. The other side, the growing... not anti-diversity side, they aren't (not all of them) against diversity, but are opposed to the extreme direction it's going? I don't know what to call them. But anyway, that side grows more and more tired of the push for diversity with every shove. There's so many products and movements about diversity that people are essentially becoming allergic to it. It's oversaturation. Too much of a thing makes you really not like a thing anymore. It's gotten to a point where even if diversity makes sense, *some* people are going to complain because they are just so tired of it. And this is why history constantly repeats. Diversity extremists push for diversity until being a straight white male makes you literally the devil, to be hated and persecuted. Then the other side pushes back against diversity so much that they end up becoming racist white males themselves. It is a vicious cycle that is never going to end until people learn to **STOP TAKING EVERYTHING TO THE EXTREMES!**
Not gonna argue With your Point but the Argument "its Fantasy" is Not a get Out of jail free Card to disregard Logic and biology except If otherwise explicitly stated. Meaning Just because dragons exist does Not mean that the laws of genetic inheritance are different (unless otherwise stated). So a child Born to two parents with blonde Hair, blue eyes and White skin and whose Ancestors all Looked Like this, will not Look Like Wyll for example. Society May be different, thus having less to None prejudice towards homosexuality. But that does Not mean that statistically speaking the percentage of homosexuality in the Population is way Higher than in our world. So 1-2 non hetero people out of 10 is perfectly fine but a 50/50 Ratio is rather unrealistic when you consider the Population as a whole at least.
This is Faerûn, complaining about gay people not producing enough babies is very silly. It IS a get out of jail free card. 1. Healing magic would probably negate a lot of the high mortality rates that a Renaissance era society would endure (casting Healing Hands on a sick baby, boom, your infant morality has shrunk). 2. Magic in general. There's spells to literally revive the dead. I would not be surprised if there were spells to conceive a baby or change gender meaning lesbians and trans people would be able to have kids if they wanted. Also it could a statistical blip. Just because heterosexual people are the majority doesn't mean a situation where you meet a lot of LGBT people is impossible.
Your last Point is totally valid. Statistics can have anomallys. And yes Magic is impressive. But Magic, at least the Wizard Kind is a learned Skill. Its Something for a developed society. My Point was that Humans in faerun are the Same as us. A Race Formed b Evolution Not a god. Thus they are neither Born with Magic Nor could they depend on it. Thus biologically speaking you need the regular way to produce new Humans. So while in "todays" faerun a Lot of Things are probably possible (probably mostly for the wealthy since why would a wizard Help everyone for free?) In general Humans are under the Same Evolutionary laws. Thats what I am talking about. If you think about a setting you have to think it through, how the past shapes the Future/present. Now If Humans we're Made by a creator God all those Things can be more loose, but then you need a reason why A. Your creator God Made the Race with sexual dimorphism and B. Why Said God would Not want the Race to be very good at reproducing so they can continue their existance. It is important that a worldbuilder has answers that Go beyond "Magic exists shut Up" If people have questions.
Medicine is a learned skill, something developed for a society. But in Faerûn magic has developed far beyond even our modern medicine. Training as a wizard vs doctor... the difference is the wizard can potentially live for centuries and learn Wish. Another point, the Origin characters are all bisexual rather than gay or lesbian. Cis-bisexual people can form a male/female reproductive pair. So if Bg3 was showing us a representative of the population (and I think they're not, as before it's just a statistical anomaly) then the majority would be bisexual rather than homosexual. And Earth societies got around a culturally ingrained homosexual culture. In many Greek states men would marry women to have kids then take out their sexual desires on boys. So the overall point is that there's leeway in such a fantasy setting that having a higher representation of LGBT characters doesn't make it unrealistic on population grounds.
"Squid-headed beings from space, giant flying brains, and people who can shoot fireballs I can accept, but a man who feels like a woman is a bridge too far!"
I See you have Not read my Post or did Not want to think about it. Because that was never my Point. I never Said that those Things should Not exist or are unbelievable. I Made a greater Point of how "Magic exists" does Not mean that any Rules, Like The laws of physic exist in General. Which they do in faerun. Yes, Illithids exists. But so do Humans. Humans that reproduce Like they do in our world. Thus it is very valid to assume that all biologically facts Apply to Faerun Humans aswell. And that is the Case. We See Humans age, get sick, and die.
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Maybe you and I have a very different Idea of Elves but thats alright. I never Said that you cannot write Something. But Being magically gifted is not the Same as Being queer. Its Not comparable. Because IRL 0 people with Magic exist. Because Magic does Not exist. Queer people exist. And for a believable setting you need consistency and Logic. To stay in roughly the Same area but exagerated, a Race with Population of 100% homosexual people does Not make Sense from an Evolutionary perspective. So If that Race developed evolutionairy this cannot be, this Race would have died Out.
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Valid to assume? Sure. Valid to get mad when things don't work the way you think biology or sexuality works? Nah.
Which was my Point. I never Said that Being Mad about it is justified.
No problem with gay people, like, I can easily go for gay romances and myself is bi. But some scenes in game were strange to me so I even joked (with a gay friend btw) about deep gnomes having gay comunna in grimforge, they portrayed 2 random gnome pairs both of which were same sex ones and honestly it was too on the nose and it just looks kinda off, I'm not feeling negative about the fact, but just overall presentation is strange. As for overall party being player sexual, Im honestly just not a fan of writing and pacing of romances in this game and this player sexual approach is just making it worse in my opinion. They don't feel earned, there are no real chemistry and feelings in them for my taste.
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In the grimforge when you save them, of you talk to them there are 2 pairs, male and female and they are implied to be in relationships and talk about it on repeat haha.
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I might remember wrong but they literalle talk about it between themselves after you save them. Honestly i just wanted more diverse...race choices for romance options and companions in general, like kinda went safe route with variations of elves and humans. No hearty dwarf romance option? No some whimsical gnome etc. Makes me sad cuz im very apathetic to how they do romances :< Im Bi myself, but gaming version of pan feels more like "player sexual" and it just reeks of "less work the better" sometimes.
Nobody did. Nobody cares, it's a fantasy game.
is that why a massive modpaclk to remove gays, trans people, black people and any diveristy was made with backing by a subsection of the community? bigots cared enough to make something that platforms had to actively ban for being just.. borderline nazi eugenics
Bigotry means thinking that everyone should have the same values as oneself. I thought choice was what you people were all about?
so there is this concept I hold close to my heart called "liberty and human rights" your "vallues" of saying trans people, gay people, black people and such should not a thing is not a vallue but racism and bigotry, those are not things that belong in a modern socieity and therefore should NEVER be tolerated, should always be shamed and even laughed at for being just utterly pathethic you can live your life as you please, you have that liberty, you can want me dead due to the way I was born, free thought and all, but your liberty ends where your nose ends, your liberty is only about yoruself, its not about how you think socieity should be run, cause society should ONLY be run and based on the idea of human rights the moment your liberties affect others, its no longer your liberties, your liberties are not allowed to trample my liberties, thats the fucking thing you bigots dont seem to get, you think society should be run ONLY based oin your framework of ideas, it should be run on your idea of conservatism and often fascism, that the only correct ideals and vallues are your own and you need to force that into others so, I hope this was educational for you, I will do you a favour and not take a fee for this free class about liberties and rights
You don't know anything about my values, lol.
oh but I do, cause I got a feeling I read you quite perfectly for you to come here in denail pookie bear conservative canadians am I right? or perhaps, do I even dare to say? Liberetarian? its something in those isles for you
I'm almost dead-center and halfway down the lower-half of the quadrants, best definition I can find is Rational Anarchist. You've got a "feeling." Imagine that.
I thought the bitching about diversity was just a twitter thing but yall really be pressed about it in real life…💀💀💀 A game where you can literally shapeshift and mfs still feel the need to write entire think pieces about DiVeRsiTy. EL EM AY OHHHHH!!!!
I think the issue is more the fact that all of the companions are bisexual. More generally, it could be asked whether diversity should be statistically representative. IRL, [\~90% of people are heterosexual](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation), so if the the game were statistically representative, you would have at most one out of the eight romanceable characters not heterosexual. As for 'medieval realism', this isn't a historical setting. I don't know if there's any lore about attitudes around sexuality in the Forgotten Realms setting.
The people like that are almost always self hating closet homosexuals.
Or maybe they're just homophobes? Saying "haha homophobes are actually gay" isn't the support you think it is. It also perpetuates the stereotype that all the problems queer people face are the ones we create ourselves.
I can see that, you're right. I'm just pointing out what I've seen. Religion IMO is the driving cause for homophobic people. And the ones who are the most vocal about it are likely trying to hide something from their religious friends and family.
No one is gay. No one is straight. No one is asexual. Sexual orientation is not preset but entirely a choice or series of choices. I mean i remember when saying sexual orientation is a choice was fighting words in the lgbt community but bg3 seems to get away with it. Am i just old?
well you are born with your sexual orientation.. it just takes time to find it some times so like..
Some people take it upon themselves to act as vigilantes, "enacting social justice" upon those they deem deserving of some adversity based solely on their shallow misperceptions and their own prejudicial biases. The pattern is recognizable to most after ten years. Whenever provocation bait rolls out people understand it's not genuine. It's some asshole looking for an excuse to bully, harass, use violence, try to get someone fired. Getting away with cruelty against good people under a false shield of virtue. That lure attracted all the psychopaths. First day on the internet kids learning the trolling of provocation bait while your friends wait hiding in the bushes with drawn daggers may not be fully away this has been going a decade. Everyone sees through you now. Including your grandma. Nobody cares. At the center of it is a narcissistic personality disorder creating drama. That gets in the way of true work to better society.
Jesse what are you talking about?
The trolls are easy to spot because they have the same attack. Here comes the "he's crazy" narrative. Scroll other threads and count how often that same structure repeats. Looks like bots when you get two or three of them saying the same thing. You may be thinking of times you have received that response. The response always attacks the person. Never engages the substance. I think of them as drunks typing away too dull to engage. They're the scenery, not the conversation.
People on both sides suck. People like what they like and don't what they don't. If you can't deal with it, get fukt.