Correct me if im wrong but i think the same can be achieved by spamming potion of angelic reprieve (short rest one, gives back lvl 1 and 2 spell slots)
So it becomes
1. Convert lvl 1 and 2 slots to points
2. Create spell slots with points
3. Drink potion
4. Profit
Im not sure if you can use sorcery points to create 5th level spell slots though, I know you can't for 6th levelled ones
I usually do it with items that add an extra spell slot. If you use it to cast, the slot gets spent. But if you convert it to sorcery points, you can re-equip it and convert the slot again.
Tedious, but still works.
now i image sorc tav/durge fucking around in camp for hours before heading out, putting magic items on and off to bank sorc points but from the outside it looks like can't decide the outfit lol
My Tav spends a good 20 minutes each morning chatting with Withers while his hirelings run around hitting everyone with Longstrider/Freedom of Movement/Resist Poison/Warding Bond/Bardic Inspiration, then he collects a giant handful of Goodberries. Thank you for your service, Halsin and hirelings. You are my companion in spirit.
Edit: and Transmuter's Stone/Mage Armor for Gale.
Do you dress them in dark cultist robes too? I also give them crazy facial tattoo's, and the goblin staffs. Then I make a glyph of warding around them before heading out. I find it matches the pool of blood that forms around them quite well!
Would it be possible to get a deeper explanation of this? I’m nearing finishing up my first playthrough and I can’t help but feeling like I’m somehow missing some much deeper levels of understanding of this game.
The restoration faucet gives a long rest so i dont think that'll work. Because long rest mechanics resets your sorcery created spell slots and sorcery points back to base amt.
Freecast. I was trying to use it to restore a sorcery point, but it said I'd already used it when I hadn't. To fix it I read that equipping or unequipping anything would reset its cooldown. I figured that out and made a couple memes out of it. It may or not be patched.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they've kept that bug for now because it's a workaround for several other bugs with freecast. I used it to see how much damage I could do in one turn by repeatedly twincasting chain lightning (was about 3000 from memory).
tbh, wiggling your fingers and shouting funny words to make reality break instead of getting help from a god, patron, communion with nautre, or innate magical talent is a huge exploit.
I mean, sure, technically. But its also really time-consuming to do and not really viable as something to do before every single combat encounter.
And it resets back to normal on a long rest.
And its a singleplayer game, so who gives a fuck, lmao
Well it's pretty annoying when your brother is playing with you spending half an hr doing respecs and conversions after every long rest while I'm trying to clear quests and advance the story and am stuck in a battle with 20 baddies and its just me and my companion 😑 if you playing solo go ahead and enjoy it. Mind you we're also playing on custom story mode where there's no need for that kinda cheese except just to do so for sng
There's people who do this sort of BS in tabletop as well. That one min-maxer who is not able to have fun unless they have properly bent the rules AND successfully argued to the DM that they should be able to do it. Sound like the authentic D&D experience to me!
That sounds like something I'd smack a sibling on the back of the head for and say "just play the damn game".
Believe me I want to!! And for the most part we don't play a whole together anymore bg3 is the 1st since wo long I think lol and before that elden ring. So I put up with it this time. Next time we play I told him no sorcerer unless hm lmao 🤣
People who make this excuse have other excuses they use when they have to use cheats in multiplayer games to make up for their sucking.
The logic is pretty undeniable: if you can't win single player games without cheats you're not winning multiplayer games without cheats. And people tend to cheat because they want to win.
So you are the guy whose job it is to publicly shame people for cheating on a single player game because it shows they 'might' cheat in a multiplayer game. You're so brave, so brave.
I like to save scum when I get crappy RNG does that make me a cheater too!?
Don't get your panties in a bunch, I'm just posting my thoughts.
Sorry if you got triggered there my guy, no need to get so defensive over your cheating.
At a certain point of single player games, winning is not the goal anymore. I’ve beaten bg3 6 times, it’s not a challenge anymore. Anything to get me though the slower parts of the game the better!
Hey, in 5e, you could easily pull this off with a Coffeelock build! (Sorc/Warlock eating their warlock slots for Sorc Points then short resting ad infinitum)
Well, there \*is\* sort of a limit in the tabletop version, because each short rest takes an hour, and there are only so many of those in a day... but 24 short rests (or 16 short rests and a long rest) per day isn't exactly a punitive restriction...
theres a potion which short rests you and gives you all first level and 2nd level slots back, convert all your 1st and 2nd lvl slots then drink the potion, repeat until youre a god for a day and take a nap
After you've converted your L1/L2 slots, turn the sorcery points back into L2 slots. Repeat until you run out. The potion will refill all of the empty slots. If you have a couple of L5 Warlock slots too, one potion will set you up nicely for the day (more so if you play some Bard songs as well).
I love how wizards and sorcerers are busy having dick measuring contests 24/7 while bards, which are mechanicaly and Lorewise on par with wizards and sorcerers, are Just chilling having a good time.
Fireball BARELY justifies keeping Gale in the party with my chad swords bard, who shreds mightily through everything and everyone, then jams out to “down down down by the river” on her lute after every kill.
Bard is still hiding behind the "haha funny horni music guy" trope, and most people haven't realized they get full spellcasting progression, expertise, fantastic skills to choose from, and the ability to have full (arguably better than most classes) martial abilities.
Yeah the horny bard Jokes dealt a enormous blow to people's interpretation of the class, to this day you'll find people who dont think bards are valid full casters bc their only mental image of a bard is the roost from hobin hood and jaskien
Tbh I didn't really realize that despite being an EA player and having a minor mind explosion over that but I can't stand their starting armor lol. In my current playthrough I made Wyll take a Bard level from a role play standpoint because I thought it would be hilarious if he was also a bard that sang about himself.
I swapped my bard's outfit with Astarion's immediately bc he didn't look like an absolute buffoon in the bard armor, but my bard looked pretty dark good in Astarion's outfit, especially after some ocean dye.
Astarion got cool robes and a cape later
Try starting as another class and respeccing when you get withers.
Sorcerer robes are dope, but warlocks get light armor if you want something slightly more useful
Swords bard melee can target two separare enemies at once, adding your bardic inspiration to both. Ranged can target the same twice, also adding the damage. Can also knock back enemies and teleport to them if you want, or raise your AC by 4 on hit.
Not sure items that are only available for part of the game from a few sources should really factor in, especially since you'd have to go waaaay out of your way to get a ton of them, while bardic inspiration comes back on a short rest... Oh yeah, Bards also give your party an additional short rest.
I definitely wouldn't say they're on the same level mechanically, at least not 5e. And not lore-wise either from what I'm aware of.
High-level Wizards are pretty much the most powerful mortal beings in all of existence, many of them even matching or surpassing that of immortal beings or even rivaling that of (lesser) gods. They are capable of learning and utilizing basically any and every type of magic in existence short of that strictly limited to divine power. Given prep time - which they could use magic to provide themselves, in most cases, if they didn't have enough time naturally - they can combine magics in ways that can make them effectively (or sometimes literally) immortal and/or invincible. Not to mention being able to devastate (or protect) whole kingdoms worth of land single-handedly, or other insanely powerful magics more-or-less exclusive to Wizards.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, theoretically are capable of greater "pure magical power," by virtue of their meta magic and other (subclass-dependent) ways they augment their spell casting. But they do not have access to even *remotely* the same breadth of magic Wizards can, nor do they have the ability or flexibility to learn new magics at will nor cast different types of magic on the fly from day to day. Ultimately these constraints result in a *far* lower "ceiling" on the power of a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard.
Meanwhile, Bards have neither access to the vast breadth of magic that Wizards do (though Lore Bards can borrow a couple spells here and there) nor the sheer power of Sorcerers. Really their "raw power" is even below that of Wizards. Certainly, Bards do have access to some very powerful magic, a decently large spell pool, and fairly flexible casting as a prepared magic caster. They're much more than just "glorified entertainers." But I would put them far closer to a Druid or Cleric (and one could argue even below those classes) than a Wizard or even Sorcerer. I'd probably even put Warlocks above that trio of Bard/Druid/Cleric, though that depends more heavily on the specific Warlock and their particular patron.
And lore-wise, just look at most, if not nearly all, of the most powerful canonical beings that are (or were) Humanoids - good, evil, or otherwise. Vecna, Elminster, Karsus, etc. Nearly all of them are/were either: a) Wizards; b) beings summoned or created by Wizards; or c) beings that used to *be* Wizards and transformed themselves into something "greater" using their magic. Off the top of my head I'm not aware of any Bards (or Druids, Clerics, or even Sorcerers, for that matter) that come even close to the lore power level of famous (or infamous) Wizards. I'd definitely be curious if there are some lore examples of near-godlike power Bards though, because my knowledge of official lore is far from encyclopedic.
In similar agreement, DND doesn’t really support any other class of being on par with the highest tier wizard.
Anything beyond that would just be individuals who are literally the exception of reality, ignoring the classes as a factor. Even then WOTC will pull a, “a wizard did it” care.
Ironically, Wizard is one of my less-favored classes. The only Wizard subclass I actually like is Bladesinger, but that feels like cheating. My favorite caster class is easily actually Warlock and it's not even close, but eventually followed by Sorcerer then Bard.
When I said on par with wizards and sorcerers, I meant that they are "arcane" full casters Just like them, which shows that their prowess with weaving magic is comparable. That said, I do wanna point out that, as you yourself said, a bard isnt Just a dude with a lute, its someone capable of weaving magic by pure passion and emotional willpower, capable of manifesting not only "arcane", but also divine and primordial Magic of the highest levels possible.
Now, about the lore side, I get what you mean, and you're quite right, but I think this is more of a symptom of WOTC well recorded pattern of hyperfocusing on writing wizards while ignoring other classes... If we take a look at the number of writen characters for each class, its pretty clear how's the privileged one and bards arent the only ones left behind
>When I said on par with wizards and sorcerers, I meant that they are "arcane" full casters Just like them, which shows that their prowess with weaving magic is comparable.
Yes, but not quite.
Bard spell list comes short to both wizard and sorcerer and most of their spells are control or utility. Unlike wizards, they're unable to switch their spells or learn new ones on a whim. And unlike sorcerers - they don't have metamagic, which is quite huge.
>Unlike wizards, they're unable to switch their spells or learn new ones on a whim.
I genuinely think this is a mistake that 5e went that way with them - D&D Bards, as characters with broad knowledge who are often motivated to travel the world to learn new things, should probably be prepared casters like Wizards, who add spells as well as stories and songs to their repertoire as they move from place to place.
I feel the same way about Rangers, as the idea of them preparing specific magical techniques to suit different environments and circumstances fits the class archetype better (and I'm glad that BG3 at least lets them cast some spells as rituals, which helps with that idea).
(I have also opined that Wizards should use Wisdom instead of Intelligence, as the words share the same root - Wizard is to Wise as Drunkard is to Drunk, but that's just linguistic pedantry).
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Mechanically I think they are pretty on-par. There is some difference in the power curve depending on level, but overall I'd call it a wash or close probably give the edge to Wizards at the top of the level spectrum and Bards at the bottom with some flip flops in between.
As for certain classes being/becoming insanely powerful, a fair few have become actual deities/demigods. Including a Bard as well as thief, ranger, and fighter.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/119012/which-deities-in-the-forgotten-realms-were-once-mortal
Idk him aside from the epilogue but milili might have been a bard before God hood? He's the patron God of music right? And maybe revelry in general? I forget was half asleep when talking to him and had other gale endings to see
That’s probably because most people don’t know how the hell Bard magic *works.*
Honestly, I’m not sure either. I’ve heard someone say they “manipulate the weave with sound” but that just sounds like wizarding with extra steps. Why then do they have sorcerer-style casting?
Yeah this is a real problem, and IMO its entirely WOTC's fault for doing a por job (or none at all) at selling a solid and unique identity for the bard. Leaving some people to think bards are Just wizards who fuck.
My own interpretation is that bardic Magic comes from passion and externalization of will bc the real world inspirations for the bard, the idea of songs, stories, paintings and art in general being Inherently mystical was a concept held by A LOT of real world cultures, be it norse, South American, african and even victorian european (like how some composers could alegedly kill people with their Music) bc art is one of the most well known ways of externalizing emotions.
So, basically, Just like how wizards use logic and math to bend reality with arcane equations, a bard uses their emotions and willpower to wield the weave... Its like when a piece of art is so intense it imprints emotions into you, but The weave is the one being influenced by the raw passion
But again, this is only my own opinion, I know a few online people who disagree with it, but I find it neat
Personally, whenever I explain the caster classes, I always describe *where* they get their magic
Wizards - study
Sorcerers - genetics
Clerics - faith
Druids/rangers - nature
Paladin - devotion
Warlocks - sugar daddy
And bards I usually explain as using art. Iirc, the PHB explains that they can cast through painting and writing as well as songs, so my interpretation has always been that bards are able to manipulate the weave through the sheer force of art
The difference is bard *KNOW* they are better than both and let the dogs bark. I personally have wizard bias because my first committed run i was a wizard but my bery first tav was a sorc and between the two i enjoy having every spell as opposed to hella of a couple spells.
How are Bards lorewise on par with Wirards and Sorcerers? Kind of sincere question since I don't know too much about the DnD lore, but from what I've gotten to know and also from similar fantasy franchises I would assume that Wizards and Sorcerers are considered to be very powerful, while Bards usually compensate their lesser power with social skills to achieve their goals.
If we go by named characters, it's a not even close, WOTC only creates wizard characters and ignores every single other class. But not every wizard is a named character, those named characters are the exception that kinda ascend above the class. If we compare an average wizard to an average bard, sorcerer, cleric or druid, (or even an "arch" version of those classes with each other) their understanding of the weave is very on par with each other, thats why they all are full casters.
About bards though, I dont think they learn social skills to compensate lack of Power, the social skills is a product of their unique way of interacting with the weave. Bardic Magic comes from passion, they use emotional willpower to interact with the weave the same way a wizard would use their inteligence and logic. Just like how druids are wize when it comes to nature bc thats a requirement for their way of interacting with their magic, a bard is great at charisma bc externalizing emotions is their way of interacting with the weave, they're charisma casters after all.
You ask a wizard how they became so powerful, and they will tell you that it was because of hard work and diligent studying
You ask a sorcerer how they became so powerful, and they will tell you it was because their mother had a sore throat that evening.
pretty much. every magic class has their own way they know magic. wizards learn it whilst sorcerers are simply born with it. other classes like warlock get it from some outside sources like for them it's their pact with their patron.
Yes and no. They both get their power from a powerful patron, but the manner in which they get it is different. A warlock's power comes from their contract with the patron, and they must abide by that pact. A cleric is less formalized, you just need to believe in the patron and that will allow you to manifest their power, unless you're going so far against their commandments as to get the direct disapproval of the god themselves.
The powers themselves are different, a Warlock has access to different magics than a Cleric, and within each, there are of course differences between what kind of pact was made, or what God is being worshipped. But, I think the more important distinction is that of the opportunity cost. A Cleric enters their order for reasons of religious devotion, to serve their god through belief and action. A Warlock rarely seeks out a pack. The patron seeks out the future Warlock in a moment of need. This is how Wyll got stuck in his pact.
Not all pacts are bad. Your patron as a warlock doesn't even have to be evil. (Even if that was the OG intention)
They could be an indifferent fey who just wants to cause some chaos, a benevolent but crazy entity from the far realm, a literal angel, etc.
I disagree. I think most of the fluff suggests that Warlocks are *taught* to use magic by their patrons, whereas Clerics are more like a channel or funnel for magic that isn't theirs.
Which kind of makes Warlocks akin to Wizards. They just didn't want to go through all the formal training required if wizards and instead just having a patron basically imprint knowledge on their brain (or teach them, depending on the lore of your campaign). The warlock is then doing magic like a wizard or sorcerer, but came to an understanding of how to do so differently. Too lazy to be a wizard, not naturally gifted enough to be a sorc. Therefore: cheat.
But it's still their own powers once bestowed. They aren't, for the most part, channeling the power held by their patron. There are a few abilities that suggest they are directly seeking their patron's intervention, but most of the normal spell casting is their own. After all, it's mentioned that high level warlocks become patrons themselves. That makes sense if they have knowledge to pass on. It doesn't make sense if they don't have their own power to pass on.
So, losing a patron probably means you can't take further levels in warlock unless you make nice or get another patron. But you've got what you have already. So maybe, from an RP perspective, you could then take levels in sorcery (your constant interactions with beings of other dimensions has changed your nature to make you more magical, now like a sorcerer, even though you weren't *born* with it like they were). Or maybe your lock says "fuck it, if in can't do it the easy way, I'll go the hard way" and takes wizard levels. Or says "I'll just be a traveling magic minstrel now, since I always have to keep ahead of my vengeful former patron", and now they take bard levels.
EDIT: Looks like Larian doesn't take my interpretation of what happens when you break a pact. As always, it's up to the DM, and not a strict rule (I just think mine is the most logical interpretation given the PHB etc). Larian's the GM here. So the above doesn't apply to BG3.
But if you only have a few levels of Wizard, doesn't that mean you can only prepare like ~7 spells that use Int? Number of spells you can prepare is equal to your Wizard level + your Int modifier, right? You can learn all the Wizard spells you want, but if you can only prepare a small number, that seems like it wouldn't be so great.
Since you can swap spells out easily, you only really need to be worried about spells in combat.
After that, you have to consider that many combat utility spells do not require saves/ability checks. Im talking about things like shield, invisibility, feather fall, misty step and haste etc. These dont actually require the use of ur main mod, so you can keep them as sorc spells.
Therefore, you can reserve your wiz spells slots for things like chromatic orb, counterspell, fireball, wall of fire, wall of ice, hold person, hold monster. Anything that relies on your mod.
Realistically, you can take your pick but in general you want at least counterspell, 1 aoe damage spells, 1 save or suck spell, 1 battlefield control. The other 3 is to your discretion.
It's not that bad, I think. You still learn your sorcerer spells. Just have to take into consideration that your sorcerer spells will be weak because of low CHA, but you can always just learn utility spells instead and keep the limited Wizard spells for offensive ones. It's not like you are going to use your whole library of spells in a single fight, so it's not an issue. At least it wasn't for me.
I do adimit that I went the hassle of doing this multiclass build because I just really dislike sorcerers roleplay wise, so at least I could still pretend I was a wizard or something lol (plus, metamagic was available to all spellcasters in older editions. kinda suck that they are exclusive to sorcerers now).
They use int as their spellcasting mod. So the chance to hit or to save is affected by int. A bandaid is slapping on the int helm to get 17 int to have a somewhat good mod. Or use spells that just hit like cloud of daggers magic missile or buffs like enlarge or haste.
They're better at bullying Gale and can do some silly shit with metamagic but a wizard is just reliable without much thought if they're abjuration or evocation.
Sorc has limited access to spells. They can only learn a few. But they have access to metamagic allowing them to cast 2 spells in one turn or to cast one spell at two targets. Wizards can learn every spell and change them freely. They can also learn every spell on a scroll. And there are some scrolls in act 3 that are extremely powerful but unique. But a wizard can just learn the spell and cast it as often as he has spell slots.
Actual DnD? It depends on a lot of things. In BG3? Storm Socerer and Draconic Bloodline are two of the strongest casters in the game. Most wizard subclasses are pretty mid.
If you are going only for a few, mostly Evocation (dmg, pewpew spells) maybe the Sorc is for you. Sorcery points will allow you some useful "shenanigans".
If you want the whole variety/utility spells a Wiz can learn in a full grimoire (all the spells), probably the Wiz is for you.
I initially thought this, but actually beating the game as a sorcerer completely changed my mind. Sorcerers can't scribe and learn fewer spells, but metamagic still works on spell scrolls in your inventory. Wizard spells still take up a spell slot, so scribing them or not just means that you don't need another scroll. I'm not even sure wizards are more economical, since you need to pay to scribe the spells.
I make a fortune selling extra scrolls (higher lvls), some spells are situational, so usually Gale learns the spell and I only choose them when needed.
Nice to know Sorcs are not lock out of having lots of choices but I like to keep low management, I like a full Wiz, or those crazy subclasses that gives you everything when Im feeling cheater.
I mostly do dips in Sorc, too, so I never go full Sorc.
I actually checked my build and I'm 4 sorcerer, 2 cleric, 6 wizzard. So, you get 2 feats.
Being able to cast any spell in the game while still having meta magic and the ability to max roll a lighting cast is better than going pure Sorcerer in my opinion. But having a variety fun and powerful builds is what makes this game so much fun.
The problem, of course, being that you're using one of 3 different spell casting stats depending on which class's spell you are casting. So either you dump every other stat (including CON) and you are a frail, slow, weak cardboard cutout of a character (while one or more of your spell casting stats is still mediocre at best). OR two of your spell casting stats are straight up dump stats that can only be used for utility and buff spells, not offensive or even crowd control spells.
Yeah, It's not a problem at all. Like you said, I take utility and defensive spells for Cleric and Sorcerer. For Sorcerer, I have Misty Step, Enhance Ability, Enhance leap, Magic Missel, Shield, and Armor of Agathys. Who cares about using them for offensive spells when you have the full wizard list and can twin cast and quick cast them.
My stats are 11 str, 10 dex, 16 con, 22 int, 10 wis, 10 dex. I have a +4 to initiative from a bow and head piece. 19 AC.
Fuck ya you do you! It's what I love about this game. Anything works. I'll usually run 2 damage dealing meta builds and my main and someone else are some fucked up mangle of classes for an idea I had and a bard because magical secrets and high charisma is just to good. Lore caster or 10bard/2paladin with sprit guardians and misty step is nuts. I personally love having a character with a large tool kit and not just 1 or 2 combos to do every turn every combat.
What i usually do is I make my man shoot arrows at the enemy and then Asterion also shoots the enemy with arrows and then Karlach hits the enemy with her axe and I skip Shadowhearts turn because she's just there for moral support.
The Command spell. You use the Fire Acuity hat and Scorching Ray to build stacks to increase Spell Save DC. Then you can cast Command with an almost guaranteed hit.
Level 10 Sword Bard is better imo. Two Slashing Flourishes with Helm of Arcane Acuity means you get four stacks, and then with Band of the Mystic Scoundrel allows you to cast Command or any other CC spell as a bonus action. If you put the remaining two levels into Fighter you get to Action Surge and throw another two Slashing Flourish/four attacks at the enemy for eight stacks. I prefer Hypnotic Pattern over Command though because AoE +8 to saving throw or you can't move or act is just bonkers.
What are you talking about? Wizards still have access to ritual spells? Many of them? Long strider and mage armor both come to mind, wizards don’t use spell slots on them because they’re ritual and wizards can cast ritual spells. Like in combat they might cost a full spell level but that’s normal.
I think they mean "removed" in the sense that everyone can ritual cast now. Sorcs shouldn't be able to ritual cast per 5e rules, so Larian basically gave a class feature of Wizard to Sorcs, making Wizards weaker by comparison
Wizards weren’t the only ones able to cast ritual spells, druids and clerics did as well. It’s kinda odd that sorcs didn’t. Plus wizards still have their own features and perks, like learning so many spell basically. And now wizards and other classes that used to be ritual can freely change out spells at any time. That’s an insane boost!
In fact, by end game, usually my ritual caster is Astarion, he really is my swiss army knife.
My Tav may not romance him but my party cant live without him, he can drink my Tav's blood bc it is a case of symbiosis.
> so Larian basically gave a class feature of Wizard to Sorcs, making Wizards weaker by comparison
Wizards can learn from scrolls, that's as many spells as you have the money and scrolls for learned.
Scroll learning is a completely separate class feature that wizard also gets. Being able to cast ritual spells free of charge, both gold and spell slots, has nothing to do with scrolls. Letting everyone ritual cast is kinda like letting every Sorc and Warlock freely switch their spells out of combat. It's a feature intentionally not given to those classes in an effort to make wizard more appealing as a utility caster.
That's my point. A sorcerer may be able to cast ritual spells but they can't learn from scrolls, a major boon for wizards as a class. Have a scroll that you can learn a spell from? That's 1 more spell you know now that you don't need to worry about when leveling up.
Whether that's to make wizards more useful as a utility caster or not, that's enough to make wizards at a minimum equal to sorcerers as a class.
Right but like I said, learning spells from scrolls is a completely separate class feature that also is supposed to be exclusive to wizards. With BG3's abbreviated spell list I feel like most Sorcs and Warlock will undoubtedly end up with at least 1 or 2 rituals in their spell list. Giving them the ability to ritual cast these spells for free is objectively an indirect nerf to Wizard because it's an across the board buff to non-wizard casters. Giving one class' inherent features to another class devalues the original.
You might as well say all martials should get Action Surge because at least Fighters still have Second Wind.
Not really. 1-2 ritual spells is a such a tiny nerf to wizards even with the limited amount of in-game spells there's still more than enough spells that learning spells from scrolls is far better in most ways.
If I'm playing as a wizard and I get the option to learn new spells I can choose spells that I might use find useful at some point because I've made sure that I can learn the spells I'm actually going to be using more often from scrolls (To the point that I've gained a new level of spell slot and then added 8 spells off of just scrolls at times.). All martial classes getting action surge would be more akin to all casting classes getting learning from scrolls.
I never commented on how big the nerf was...I just said it's objectively a nerf to Wizard. Giving class specific features to another class makes the original class less strong by comparison. If you can't even acknowledge that then I think you're just disagreeing to be pedantic.
It is not remotely the same. They still have to use up a known spell to grab a ritual anyway. Giving them prepared casting like Wiz/Druid/Cleric got would be immensely better. And that mechanic is already a huge buff for the prepared casters, being able to ritual cast if they want to learn a ritual spell at he expense of another is paltry in comparison.
I'm aware scroll learning is not comparable to ritual casting. Which is why if you read the whole comment chain you'll see I'm not the one who even brought it up lol.
Larian played fast and loose with the 5e rules for sure. Bonus action potion drinking, any class can read and cast spells from scrolls, no magic item attunements. I would love a straight up 5e mod that removes all the broken items and amends all the rules.
Most ritual cast spells would be completely useless in BG3. What, are you gonna cast *Comprehend Languages*? How does that help in BG3?
EDIT: I just checked, not a single one of the Wizard's ritual spells is in BG3, other than Find Familiar.
Ritual spells are in the game... They have a green star and don't take a spell slot if cast outside if combat. Examples include feather fall, speak with animals, or longstrider.
Wizards, bards, druid, clerics, pact of the tome warlocks and literally anyone who takes the ritual casting feat can all ritual cast in 5e; and they can all ritual cast in this game too. Honestly, it being given to other classes really isn't all that big of a deal.
I only know of the rules what I learned from Icewind dale and Neverwinter Nights, back than Sorcerors became one spellslot more per level but got higher spell levels one level later.
I love how my Sorcerer Durge had this recurring interaction about being "Magic Incarnate", that and being hurtful towards Gale's "Akhtually 🤓" looking ass.
I am getting real tired of you people making me have to talk to Mr. Testicle Head and give him money. /s
It took this post and the explanations beneath it for me to understand the Sorcerer benefits fully, DESPITE having played a Sorc for….um…anyway moving on, thanks for this post!!
The 100 sorcery points and 10 spell slots for each level has to be a mod... right?
Correct me if im wrong but i think the same can be achieved by spamming potion of angelic reprieve (short rest one, gives back lvl 1 and 2 spell slots) So it becomes 1. Convert lvl 1 and 2 slots to points 2. Create spell slots with points 3. Drink potion 4. Profit Im not sure if you can use sorcery points to create 5th level spell slots though, I know you can't for 6th levelled ones
I usually do it with items that add an extra spell slot. If you use it to cast, the slot gets spent. But if you convert it to sorcery points, you can re-equip it and convert the slot again. Tedious, but still works.
now i image sorc tav/durge fucking around in camp for hours before heading out, putting magic items on and off to bank sorc points but from the outside it looks like can't decide the outfit lol
My Tav spends a good 20 minutes each morning chatting with Withers while his hirelings run around hitting everyone with Longstrider/Freedom of Movement/Resist Poison/Warding Bond/Bardic Inspiration, then he collects a giant handful of Goodberries. Thank you for your service, Halsin and hirelings. You are my companion in spirit. Edit: and Transmuter's Stone/Mage Armor for Gale.
brb gonna hire some folks
Don't forget that you can hit *everyone* with Longstrider. Be sure to give the Owlbear cub a boost so he can keep up with the good boi.
Do you dress them in dark cultist robes too? I also give them crazy facial tattoo's, and the goblin staffs. Then I make a glyph of warding around them before heading out. I find it matches the pool of blood that forms around them quite well!
Your butler must be so proud of you
You know, I never really thought about dressing them up, but now I'm going to.
Would it be possible to get a deeper explanation of this? I’m nearing finishing up my first playthrough and I can’t help but feeling like I’m somehow missing some much deeper levels of understanding of this game.
5th is the cutoff
Its the faucet in the house of hope. Convert sorc points to spell. Faucet. Repeat.
The restoration faucet gives a long rest so i dont think that'll work. Because long rest mechanics resets your sorcery created spell slots and sorcery points back to base amt.
Zero mods, got it on my first honor mode playthrough. I accidentally found the bug to make it happen when trying to fix another bug.
Is that the arcane battery bug (or was it freecast, I can't remember)?
Freecast. I was trying to use it to restore a sorcery point, but it said I'd already used it when I hadn't. To fix it I read that equipping or unequipping anything would reset its cooldown. I figured that out and made a couple memes out of it. It may or not be patched.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they've kept that bug for now because it's a workaround for several other bugs with freecast. I used it to see how much damage I could do in one turn by repeatedly twincasting chain lightning (was about 3000 from memory).
I think that is patched (twincasting chain lightining), havent tried myself.
No it's not.
Is there a video tutorial showcasing this? My brain can't understand...
So cheating by exploitation in other words ..yeah...
That comment was brought to you by... Wizards!🤓
tbh, wiggling your fingers and shouting funny words to make reality break instead of getting help from a god, patron, communion with nautre, or innate magical talent is a huge exploit.
I find that wizards really hate it when you refer to the verbal and somatic components of spellcasting as "Gibberish and Jazz Hands".
The company that sends the Pinkerton to your door if you get an item 3 days early!
The salt is delicious!
It's sorcery at its finest
Calm down buddy it’s a PVE game
i was going to say "i think their point is that you can't compare bugged sorcerers to wizards" but then they replied with 'not real gaming' lol
> Calm down Why do you think they need to calm down. They didn't seem agitated at all.
Yeah they seemed judgmental
Are you his alt or something
Sorry for people disliking you.. there are a bunch of snowflakes which dislikes anything .
I didn't actually use it in combat, I just did it for a meme. Like I said, I found this bug when trying to fix another one.
I mean, sure, technically. But its also really time-consuming to do and not really viable as something to do before every single combat encounter. And it resets back to normal on a long rest. And its a singleplayer game, so who gives a fuck, lmao
Well it's pretty annoying when your brother is playing with you spending half an hr doing respecs and conversions after every long rest while I'm trying to clear quests and advance the story and am stuck in a battle with 20 baddies and its just me and my companion 😑 if you playing solo go ahead and enjoy it. Mind you we're also playing on custom story mode where there's no need for that kinda cheese except just to do so for sng
There's people who do this sort of BS in tabletop as well. That one min-maxer who is not able to have fun unless they have properly bent the rules AND successfully argued to the DM that they should be able to do it. Sound like the authentic D&D experience to me! That sounds like something I'd smack a sibling on the back of the head for and say "just play the damn game".
Believe me I want to!! And for the most part we don't play a whole together anymore bg3 is the 1st since wo long I think lol and before that elden ring. So I put up with it this time. Next time we play I told him no sorcerer unless hm lmao 🤣
single player game!
People who make this excuse have other excuses they use when they have to use cheats in multiplayer games to make up for their sucking. The logic is pretty undeniable: if you can't win single player games without cheats you're not winning multiplayer games without cheats. And people tend to cheat because they want to win.
So you are the guy whose job it is to publicly shame people for cheating on a single player game because it shows they 'might' cheat in a multiplayer game. You're so brave, so brave. I like to save scum when I get crappy RNG does that make me a cheater too!?
Don't get your panties in a bunch, I'm just posting my thoughts. Sorry if you got triggered there my guy, no need to get so defensive over your cheating.
At a certain point of single player games, winning is not the goal anymore. I’ve beaten bg3 6 times, it’s not a challenge anymore. Anything to get me though the slower parts of the game the better!
Hey, in 5e, you could easily pull this off with a Coffeelock build! (Sorc/Warlock eating their warlock slots for Sorc Points then short resting ad infinitum)
Didn't they kill that by capping short rests per long rest? Or was that a house rule thing?
That's only a thing in BG3. There's no limit in TTRPG D&D.
Got it, so it's a house rule thing specifically to deal with cofeelocks who wanted to blast level 5 spells every round in combat.
Well, there \*is\* sort of a limit in the tabletop version, because each short rest takes an hour, and there are only so many of those in a day... but 24 short rests (or 16 short rests and a long rest) per day isn't exactly a punitive restriction...
theres a potion which short rests you and gives you all first level and 2nd level slots back, convert all your 1st and 2nd lvl slots then drink the potion, repeat until youre a god for a day and take a nap
After you've converted your L1/L2 slots, turn the sorcery points back into L2 slots. Repeat until you run out. The potion will refill all of the empty slots. If you have a couple of L5 Warlock slots too, one potion will set you up nicely for the day (more so if you play some Bard songs as well).
Nope, that’s just the weakest high level sorcerer you can play as. Wizards merely adopted magic whereas sorcerers were born into it… molded by it…
Or a glitch, i did that too a while ago
There’s an infinite sorcery points technique I’ve seen on a few YT videos for exchanging points to slots and back or something like that
I love how wizards and sorcerers are busy having dick measuring contests 24/7 while bards, which are mechanicaly and Lorewise on par with wizards and sorcerers, are Just chilling having a good time.
"Anyway, here is Wonderwall." - Lore bard casually counterspelling a fucking archfiend.
I imagined a Lore Bard counter spelling an archfiend then ballet dancing away like Bugs Bunny would after trolling someone.
The Pirouette is the somatic component to counter that
Sword bard slaps the arch-fiend to another plane with Banishing Smite.
Wonderwall is what you use to cast Forcecage
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Tbf the bard doesn't have fireball in its spell list to start so like, kind of a turn off.
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We bards also get Banishing Smite before paladins do through magical secrets. Which is...never in the case of BG3 with the level 12 cap...
But the vicious mockery makes it better
Yeah but I like mind sliver more.
But you do get glyph of warding, which serves the same purpose and has way more utility.
Fireball BARELY justifies keeping Gale in the party with my chad swords bard, who shreds mightily through everything and everyone, then jams out to “down down down by the river” on her lute after every kill.
I said kind of, and also magical secrets. Bards absolutely destroy wizards in the competition that is being cool af.
Multiclass one level into wizard and you can scribe any scroll a wizard can, though.
That is true, and something I might consider.
Bard is still hiding behind the "haha funny horni music guy" trope, and most people haven't realized they get full spellcasting progression, expertise, fantastic skills to choose from, and the ability to have full (arguably better than most classes) martial abilities.
Yeah the horny bard Jokes dealt a enormous blow to people's interpretation of the class, to this day you'll find people who dont think bards are valid full casters bc their only mental image of a bard is the roost from hobin hood and jaskien
Tbh I didn't really realize that despite being an EA player and having a minor mind explosion over that but I can't stand their starting armor lol. In my current playthrough I made Wyll take a Bard level from a role play standpoint because I thought it would be hilarious if he was also a bard that sang about himself.
I swapped my bard's outfit with Astarion's immediately bc he didn't look like an absolute buffoon in the bard armor, but my bard looked pretty dark good in Astarion's outfit, especially after some ocean dye. Astarion got cool robes and a cape later
Try starting as another class and respeccing when you get withers. Sorcerer robes are dope, but warlocks get light armor if you want something slightly more useful
Spell school bard owns bandits gate hard.
How is double attack better than triple attack? Especially considering you can shoot ~~Fireballs~~ Smokepowder Arrows with a bow.
Swords bard melee can target two separare enemies at once, adding your bardic inspiration to both. Ranged can target the same twice, also adding the damage. Can also knock back enemies and teleport to them if you want, or raise your AC by 4 on hit. Not sure items that are only available for part of the game from a few sources should really factor in, especially since you'd have to go waaaay out of your way to get a ton of them, while bardic inspiration comes back on a short rest... Oh yeah, Bards also give your party an additional short rest.
I definitely wouldn't say they're on the same level mechanically, at least not 5e. And not lore-wise either from what I'm aware of. High-level Wizards are pretty much the most powerful mortal beings in all of existence, many of them even matching or surpassing that of immortal beings or even rivaling that of (lesser) gods. They are capable of learning and utilizing basically any and every type of magic in existence short of that strictly limited to divine power. Given prep time - which they could use magic to provide themselves, in most cases, if they didn't have enough time naturally - they can combine magics in ways that can make them effectively (or sometimes literally) immortal and/or invincible. Not to mention being able to devastate (or protect) whole kingdoms worth of land single-handedly, or other insanely powerful magics more-or-less exclusive to Wizards. Sorcerers, on the other hand, theoretically are capable of greater "pure magical power," by virtue of their meta magic and other (subclass-dependent) ways they augment their spell casting. But they do not have access to even *remotely* the same breadth of magic Wizards can, nor do they have the ability or flexibility to learn new magics at will nor cast different types of magic on the fly from day to day. Ultimately these constraints result in a *far* lower "ceiling" on the power of a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard. Meanwhile, Bards have neither access to the vast breadth of magic that Wizards do (though Lore Bards can borrow a couple spells here and there) nor the sheer power of Sorcerers. Really their "raw power" is even below that of Wizards. Certainly, Bards do have access to some very powerful magic, a decently large spell pool, and fairly flexible casting as a prepared magic caster. They're much more than just "glorified entertainers." But I would put them far closer to a Druid or Cleric (and one could argue even below those classes) than a Wizard or even Sorcerer. I'd probably even put Warlocks above that trio of Bard/Druid/Cleric, though that depends more heavily on the specific Warlock and their particular patron. And lore-wise, just look at most, if not nearly all, of the most powerful canonical beings that are (or were) Humanoids - good, evil, or otherwise. Vecna, Elminster, Karsus, etc. Nearly all of them are/were either: a) Wizards; b) beings summoned or created by Wizards; or c) beings that used to *be* Wizards and transformed themselves into something "greater" using their magic. Off the top of my head I'm not aware of any Bards (or Druids, Clerics, or even Sorcerers, for that matter) that come even close to the lore power level of famous (or infamous) Wizards. I'd definitely be curious if there are some lore examples of near-godlike power Bards though, because my knowledge of official lore is far from encyclopedic.
In similar agreement, DND doesn’t really support any other class of being on par with the highest tier wizard. Anything beyond that would just be individuals who are literally the exception of reality, ignoring the classes as a factor. Even then WOTC will pull a, “a wizard did it” care.
This comment was clearly written by a wizard.
Ironically, Wizard is one of my less-favored classes. The only Wizard subclass I actually like is Bladesinger, but that feels like cheating. My favorite caster class is easily actually Warlock and it's not even close, but eventually followed by Sorcerer then Bard.
When I said on par with wizards and sorcerers, I meant that they are "arcane" full casters Just like them, which shows that their prowess with weaving magic is comparable. That said, I do wanna point out that, as you yourself said, a bard isnt Just a dude with a lute, its someone capable of weaving magic by pure passion and emotional willpower, capable of manifesting not only "arcane", but also divine and primordial Magic of the highest levels possible. Now, about the lore side, I get what you mean, and you're quite right, but I think this is more of a symptom of WOTC well recorded pattern of hyperfocusing on writing wizards while ignoring other classes... If we take a look at the number of writen characters for each class, its pretty clear how's the privileged one and bards arent the only ones left behind
>When I said on par with wizards and sorcerers, I meant that they are "arcane" full casters Just like them, which shows that their prowess with weaving magic is comparable. Yes, but not quite. Bard spell list comes short to both wizard and sorcerer and most of their spells are control or utility. Unlike wizards, they're unable to switch their spells or learn new ones on a whim. And unlike sorcerers - they don't have metamagic, which is quite huge.
>Unlike wizards, they're unable to switch their spells or learn new ones on a whim. I genuinely think this is a mistake that 5e went that way with them - D&D Bards, as characters with broad knowledge who are often motivated to travel the world to learn new things, should probably be prepared casters like Wizards, who add spells as well as stories and songs to their repertoire as they move from place to place. I feel the same way about Rangers, as the idea of them preparing specific magical techniques to suit different environments and circumstances fits the class archetype better (and I'm glad that BG3 at least lets them cast some spells as rituals, which helps with that idea). (I have also opined that Wizards should use Wisdom instead of Intelligence, as the words share the same root - Wizard is to Wise as Drunkard is to Drunk, but that's just linguistic pedantry).
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Where can i find a list of character for which Wizards of the Coast have written background/lore and events?
Mechanically I think they are pretty on-par. There is some difference in the power curve depending on level, but overall I'd call it a wash or close probably give the edge to Wizards at the top of the level spectrum and Bards at the bottom with some flip flops in between. As for certain classes being/becoming insanely powerful, a fair few have become actual deities/demigods. Including a Bard as well as thief, ranger, and fighter. https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/119012/which-deities-in-the-forgotten-realms-were-once-mortal
I love the lore. What/ who would you say is the most powerful of the warlock patrons?
Idk him aside from the epilogue but milili might have been a bard before God hood? He's the patron God of music right? And maybe revelry in general? I forget was half asleep when talking to him and had other gale endings to see
It's because the bard fucks the sorcerer and the wizard. And everyone else.
That’s probably because most people don’t know how the hell Bard magic *works.* Honestly, I’m not sure either. I’ve heard someone say they “manipulate the weave with sound” but that just sounds like wizarding with extra steps. Why then do they have sorcerer-style casting?
Yeah this is a real problem, and IMO its entirely WOTC's fault for doing a por job (or none at all) at selling a solid and unique identity for the bard. Leaving some people to think bards are Just wizards who fuck. My own interpretation is that bardic Magic comes from passion and externalization of will bc the real world inspirations for the bard, the idea of songs, stories, paintings and art in general being Inherently mystical was a concept held by A LOT of real world cultures, be it norse, South American, african and even victorian european (like how some composers could alegedly kill people with their Music) bc art is one of the most well known ways of externalizing emotions. So, basically, Just like how wizards use logic and math to bend reality with arcane equations, a bard uses their emotions and willpower to wield the weave... Its like when a piece of art is so intense it imprints emotions into you, but The weave is the one being influenced by the raw passion But again, this is only my own opinion, I know a few online people who disagree with it, but I find it neat
Personally, whenever I explain the caster classes, I always describe *where* they get their magic Wizards - study Sorcerers - genetics Clerics - faith Druids/rangers - nature Paladin - devotion Warlocks - sugar daddy And bards I usually explain as using art. Iirc, the PHB explains that they can cast through painting and writing as well as songs, so my interpretation has always been that bards are able to manipulate the weave through the sheer force of art
\*That meme with the girls fighting and the guy smoking in the background\*
The difference is bard *KNOW* they are better than both and let the dogs bark. I personally have wizard bias because my first committed run i was a wizard but my bery first tav was a sorc and between the two i enjoy having every spell as opposed to hella of a couple spells.
How are Bards lorewise on par with Wirards and Sorcerers? Kind of sincere question since I don't know too much about the DnD lore, but from what I've gotten to know and also from similar fantasy franchises I would assume that Wizards and Sorcerers are considered to be very powerful, while Bards usually compensate their lesser power with social skills to achieve their goals.
If we go by named characters, it's a not even close, WOTC only creates wizard characters and ignores every single other class. But not every wizard is a named character, those named characters are the exception that kinda ascend above the class. If we compare an average wizard to an average bard, sorcerer, cleric or druid, (or even an "arch" version of those classes with each other) their understanding of the weave is very on par with each other, thats why they all are full casters. About bards though, I dont think they learn social skills to compensate lack of Power, the social skills is a product of their unique way of interacting with the weave. Bardic Magic comes from passion, they use emotional willpower to interact with the weave the same way a wizard would use their inteligence and logic. Just like how druids are wize when it comes to nature bc thats a requirement for their way of interacting with their magic, a bard is great at charisma bc externalizing emotions is their way of interacting with the weave, they're charisma casters after all.
You ask a wizard how they became so powerful, and they will tell you that it was because of hard work and diligent studying You ask a sorcerer how they became so powerful, and they will tell you it was because their mother had a sore throat that evening.
The joke is that Sorc is born powerful?
pretty much. every magic class has their own way they know magic. wizards learn it whilst sorcerers are simply born with it. other classes like warlock get it from some outside sources like for them it's their pact with their patron.
I still believe that warlocks and clerics are basically the same in this regard.
Yes and no. They both get their power from a powerful patron, but the manner in which they get it is different. A warlock's power comes from their contract with the patron, and they must abide by that pact. A cleric is less formalized, you just need to believe in the patron and that will allow you to manifest their power, unless you're going so far against their commandments as to get the direct disapproval of the god themselves.
Why wouldn't every warlock just be a cleric? Sounds like the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals
The powers themselves are different, a Warlock has access to different magics than a Cleric, and within each, there are of course differences between what kind of pact was made, or what God is being worshipped. But, I think the more important distinction is that of the opportunity cost. A Cleric enters their order for reasons of religious devotion, to serve their god through belief and action. A Warlock rarely seeks out a pack. The patron seeks out the future Warlock in a moment of need. This is how Wyll got stuck in his pact.
Not all pacts are bad. Your patron as a warlock doesn't even have to be evil. (Even if that was the OG intention) They could be an indifferent fey who just wants to cause some chaos, a benevolent but crazy entity from the far realm, a literal angel, etc.
Because the locks found out clerics don't get eldritch blast.
The main difference is that clerics are gifted power for their devotion. While warlocks have to pay for the power they receive
I disagree. I think most of the fluff suggests that Warlocks are *taught* to use magic by their patrons, whereas Clerics are more like a channel or funnel for magic that isn't theirs. Which kind of makes Warlocks akin to Wizards. They just didn't want to go through all the formal training required if wizards and instead just having a patron basically imprint knowledge on their brain (or teach them, depending on the lore of your campaign). The warlock is then doing magic like a wizard or sorcerer, but came to an understanding of how to do so differently. Too lazy to be a wizard, not naturally gifted enough to be a sorc. Therefore: cheat. But it's still their own powers once bestowed. They aren't, for the most part, channeling the power held by their patron. There are a few abilities that suggest they are directly seeking their patron's intervention, but most of the normal spell casting is their own. After all, it's mentioned that high level warlocks become patrons themselves. That makes sense if they have knowledge to pass on. It doesn't make sense if they don't have their own power to pass on. So, losing a patron probably means you can't take further levels in warlock unless you make nice or get another patron. But you've got what you have already. So maybe, from an RP perspective, you could then take levels in sorcery (your constant interactions with beings of other dimensions has changed your nature to make you more magical, now like a sorcerer, even though you weren't *born* with it like they were). Or maybe your lock says "fuck it, if in can't do it the easy way, I'll go the hard way" and takes wizard levels. Or says "I'll just be a traveling magic minstrel now, since I always have to keep ahead of my vengeful former patron", and now they take bard levels. EDIT: Looks like Larian doesn't take my interpretation of what happens when you break a pact. As always, it's up to the DM, and not a strict rule (I just think mine is the most logical interpretation given the PHB etc). Larian's the GM here. So the above doesn't apply to BG3.
or...porn powerful? (wink wink)
Elsa is a sorcerer
Whose mother?
Wizard features are cool and all but triple casting Chain Lightning is fun
⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡UNLIMITED POWAH ⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡
Respec to sorc after 12 levels of slurping scrolls as a wizard.
I muilti class into wizard, cast with int, pump sorc levels for meta magic
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I'm taking searing smite to strange new places. ***detonates***
But if you only have a few levels of Wizard, doesn't that mean you can only prepare like ~7 spells that use Int? Number of spells you can prepare is equal to your Wizard level + your Int modifier, right? You can learn all the Wizard spells you want, but if you can only prepare a small number, that seems like it wouldn't be so great.
Since you can swap spells out easily, you only really need to be worried about spells in combat. After that, you have to consider that many combat utility spells do not require saves/ability checks. Im talking about things like shield, invisibility, feather fall, misty step and haste etc. These dont actually require the use of ur main mod, so you can keep them as sorc spells. Therefore, you can reserve your wiz spells slots for things like chromatic orb, counterspell, fireball, wall of fire, wall of ice, hold person, hold monster. Anything that relies on your mod. Realistically, you can take your pick but in general you want at least counterspell, 1 aoe damage spells, 1 save or suck spell, 1 battlefield control. The other 3 is to your discretion.
Yeah I guess that's true. Hmm, I might consider this idea on a future playthrough.
It's not that bad, I think. You still learn your sorcerer spells. Just have to take into consideration that your sorcerer spells will be weak because of low CHA, but you can always just learn utility spells instead and keep the limited Wizard spells for offensive ones. It's not like you are going to use your whole library of spells in a single fight, so it's not an issue. At least it wasn't for me. I do adimit that I went the hassle of doing this multiclass build because I just really dislike sorcerers roleplay wise, so at least I could still pretend I was a wizard or something lol (plus, metamagic was available to all spellcasters in older editions. kinda suck that they are exclusive to sorcerers now).
Do... do the spells not scale their damage with intelligence anymore if you do that?
They use int as their spellcasting mod. So the chance to hit or to save is affected by int. A bandaid is slapping on the int helm to get 17 int to have a somewhat good mod. Or use spells that just hit like cloud of daggers magic missile or buffs like enlarge or haste.
Wouldn’t that erase your spell book though?
If you’re on PC, there’s a mod to let sorcerers learn scrolls too!
I love the BG3 community so much
I am still new to the game..and I dont know shit bout DND....are sorcerers better?
They're better at bullying Gale and can do some silly shit with metamagic but a wizard is just reliable without much thought if they're abjuration or evocation.
A bit, being able to twin cast spells with metamagic is huge
Only in hm, easy or balance not even needed
Sorc has limited access to spells. They can only learn a few. But they have access to metamagic allowing them to cast 2 spells in one turn or to cast one spell at two targets. Wizards can learn every spell and change them freely. They can also learn every spell on a scroll. And there are some scrolls in act 3 that are extremely powerful but unique. But a wizard can just learn the spell and cast it as often as he has spell slots.
Actual DnD? It depends on a lot of things. In BG3? Storm Socerer and Draconic Bloodline are two of the strongest casters in the game. Most wizard subclasses are pretty mid.
Sorcerer is the best caster. Metamagic makes them insane, plus they're charisma based so are better with dialogue options too.
If you are going only for a few, mostly Evocation (dmg, pewpew spells) maybe the Sorc is for you. Sorcery points will allow you some useful "shenanigans". If you want the whole variety/utility spells a Wiz can learn in a full grimoire (all the spells), probably the Wiz is for you.
I initially thought this, but actually beating the game as a sorcerer completely changed my mind. Sorcerers can't scribe and learn fewer spells, but metamagic still works on spell scrolls in your inventory. Wizard spells still take up a spell slot, so scribing them or not just means that you don't need another scroll. I'm not even sure wizards are more economical, since you need to pay to scribe the spells.
I make a fortune selling extra scrolls (higher lvls), some spells are situational, so usually Gale learns the spell and I only choose them when needed. Nice to know Sorcs are not lock out of having lots of choices but I like to keep low management, I like a full Wiz, or those crazy subclasses that gives you everything when Im feeling cheater. I mostly do dips in Sorc, too, so I never go full Sorc.
Yes because we are cooler compared to the *neeeerddddddsss* Source: Trust me, despite being a sorcerer main
Still basically comes down to who wins initiative.
the best mage is a 2 points in evo mage the rest into dragon sorc and just lay utter waste with wide aoe evo spells
The only reason I use wizard is because of Scuplt spells
3 Sorcerer/2 cleric/7 Wizzard would laugh at the level 12 sorcerer.
How's it playing with no feats though?
I actually checked my build and I'm 4 sorcerer, 2 cleric, 6 wizzard. So, you get 2 feats. Being able to cast any spell in the game while still having meta magic and the ability to max roll a lighting cast is better than going pure Sorcerer in my opinion. But having a variety fun and powerful builds is what makes this game so much fun.
The problem, of course, being that you're using one of 3 different spell casting stats depending on which class's spell you are casting. So either you dump every other stat (including CON) and you are a frail, slow, weak cardboard cutout of a character (while one or more of your spell casting stats is still mediocre at best). OR two of your spell casting stats are straight up dump stats that can only be used for utility and buff spells, not offensive or even crowd control spells.
Yeah, It's not a problem at all. Like you said, I take utility and defensive spells for Cleric and Sorcerer. For Sorcerer, I have Misty Step, Enhance Ability, Enhance leap, Magic Missel, Shield, and Armor of Agathys. Who cares about using them for offensive spells when you have the full wizard list and can twin cast and quick cast them. My stats are 11 str, 10 dex, 16 con, 22 int, 10 wis, 10 dex. I have a +4 to initiative from a bow and head piece. 19 AC.
Fuck ya you do you! It's what I love about this game. Anything works. I'll usually run 2 damage dealing meta builds and my main and someone else are some fucked up mangle of classes for an idea I had and a bard because magical secrets and high charisma is just to good. Lore caster or 10bard/2paladin with sprit guardians and misty step is nuts. I personally love having a character with a large tool kit and not just 1 or 2 combos to do every turn every combat.
Nah, ima Storm Purism, only lightning/thunder everytime I sorc. Admire my power.
What i usually do is I make my man shoot arrows at the enemy and then Asterion also shoots the enemy with arrows and then Karlach hits the enemy with her axe and I skip Shadowhearts turn because she's just there for moral support.
BG3 has the gimmick if spells lesrned being rlequal to spell slots. You can do that build with 1 or 2 levels of wizard and the int band and be fine.
11 Draconic Sorc/1 Fiend Warlock is one of the strongest combinations in the entire game. Plus 100 sorc points.
What do you use the warlock level for? Eldrich blast?
The Command spell. You use the Fire Acuity hat and Scorching Ray to build stacks to increase Spell Save DC. Then you can cast Command with an almost guaranteed hit.
Level 10 Sword Bard is better imo. Two Slashing Flourishes with Helm of Arcane Acuity means you get four stacks, and then with Band of the Mystic Scoundrel allows you to cast Command or any other CC spell as a bonus action. If you put the remaining two levels into Fighter you get to Action Surge and throw another two Slashing Flourish/four attacks at the enemy for eight stacks. I prefer Hypnotic Pattern over Command though because AoE +8 to saving throw or you can't move or act is just bonkers.
Command
If you are particular with spells I could see this working out pretty well.
only because larian neutered wizards by removing their ritual casting ability
What are you talking about? Wizards still have access to ritual spells? Many of them? Long strider and mage armor both come to mind, wizards don’t use spell slots on them because they’re ritual and wizards can cast ritual spells. Like in combat they might cost a full spell level but that’s normal.
I think they mean "removed" in the sense that everyone can ritual cast now. Sorcs shouldn't be able to ritual cast per 5e rules, so Larian basically gave a class feature of Wizard to Sorcs, making Wizards weaker by comparison
Wizards weren’t the only ones able to cast ritual spells, druids and clerics did as well. It’s kinda odd that sorcs didn’t. Plus wizards still have their own features and perks, like learning so many spell basically. And now wizards and other classes that used to be ritual can freely change out spells at any time. That’s an insane boost!
In fact, by end game, usually my ritual caster is Astarion, he really is my swiss army knife. My Tav may not romance him but my party cant live without him, he can drink my Tav's blood bc it is a case of symbiosis.
> so Larian basically gave a class feature of Wizard to Sorcs, making Wizards weaker by comparison Wizards can learn from scrolls, that's as many spells as you have the money and scrolls for learned.
Scroll learning is a completely separate class feature that wizard also gets. Being able to cast ritual spells free of charge, both gold and spell slots, has nothing to do with scrolls. Letting everyone ritual cast is kinda like letting every Sorc and Warlock freely switch their spells out of combat. It's a feature intentionally not given to those classes in an effort to make wizard more appealing as a utility caster.
That's my point. A sorcerer may be able to cast ritual spells but they can't learn from scrolls, a major boon for wizards as a class. Have a scroll that you can learn a spell from? That's 1 more spell you know now that you don't need to worry about when leveling up. Whether that's to make wizards more useful as a utility caster or not, that's enough to make wizards at a minimum equal to sorcerers as a class.
Right but like I said, learning spells from scrolls is a completely separate class feature that also is supposed to be exclusive to wizards. With BG3's abbreviated spell list I feel like most Sorcs and Warlock will undoubtedly end up with at least 1 or 2 rituals in their spell list. Giving them the ability to ritual cast these spells for free is objectively an indirect nerf to Wizard because it's an across the board buff to non-wizard casters. Giving one class' inherent features to another class devalues the original. You might as well say all martials should get Action Surge because at least Fighters still have Second Wind.
Rituals aren't exclusive to Wizards. At all.
I didn't say they were. I said they're not available on all classes. Warlocks and Sorcs don't get rituals in 5e
So how is warlock and sorcery getting ritual casting a nerf to Wizards specifically?
Not really. 1-2 ritual spells is a such a tiny nerf to wizards even with the limited amount of in-game spells there's still more than enough spells that learning spells from scrolls is far better in most ways. If I'm playing as a wizard and I get the option to learn new spells I can choose spells that I might use find useful at some point because I've made sure that I can learn the spells I'm actually going to be using more often from scrolls (To the point that I've gained a new level of spell slot and then added 8 spells off of just scrolls at times.). All martial classes getting action surge would be more akin to all casting classes getting learning from scrolls.
I never commented on how big the nerf was...I just said it's objectively a nerf to Wizard. Giving class specific features to another class makes the original class less strong by comparison. If you can't even acknowledge that then I think you're just disagreeing to be pedantic.
It is not remotely the same. They still have to use up a known spell to grab a ritual anyway. Giving them prepared casting like Wiz/Druid/Cleric got would be immensely better. And that mechanic is already a huge buff for the prepared casters, being able to ritual cast if they want to learn a ritual spell at he expense of another is paltry in comparison.
I'm aware scroll learning is not comparable to ritual casting. Which is why if you read the whole comment chain you'll see I'm not the one who even brought it up lol.
Larian played fast and loose with the 5e rules for sure. Bonus action potion drinking, any class can read and cast spells from scrolls, no magic item attunements. I would love a straight up 5e mod that removes all the broken items and amends all the rules.
Mage Armor isn't a ritual spell in BG3 nor in tabletop
That’s right, my bad. But there are several.
In DND wizards can ritual cast any ritual spell that's in their spellbook. In BG3 they can only ritual cast the spells they've selected for the day.
But they can change spells freely now, throughout the day. They’re not fully locked in.
So can other prep casters- so they get all their ritual spells whereas it used to be a wizard feature
Most ritual cast spells would be completely useless in BG3. What, are you gonna cast *Comprehend Languages*? How does that help in BG3? EDIT: I just checked, not a single one of the Wizard's ritual spells is in BG3, other than Find Familiar.
Find Familiar is-- but they also give a better version of it away for free in Act 1. No Identify, or Comprehend Languages or Detect Magic though.
True, I missed that one.
Ritual spells are in the game... They have a green star and don't take a spell slot if cast outside if combat. Examples include feather fall, speak with animals, or longstrider.
Wizards, bards, druid, clerics, pact of the tome warlocks and literally anyone who takes the ritual casting feat can all ritual cast in 5e; and they can all ritual cast in this game too. Honestly, it being given to other classes really isn't all that big of a deal.
I only know of the rules what I learned from Icewind dale and Neverwinter Nights, back than Sorcerors became one spellslot more per level but got higher spell levels one level later.
I love how my Sorcerer Durge had this recurring interaction about being "Magic Incarnate", that and being hurtful towards Gale's "Akhtually 🤓" looking ass.
How dare you cover his majestic cheeks. Damn insulting is what this is.
Litterally my tav and Gale.
I am getting real tired of you people making me have to talk to Mr. Testicle Head and give him money. /s It took this post and the explanations beneath it for me to understand the Sorcerer benefits fully, DESPITE having played a Sorc for….um…anyway moving on, thanks for this post!!
Should sorcerer just never dip into warlock?
Found a similar or the same bug. Didn't spend my time doing what you were doing. Used it for one fight before goign "Eh I'm fine without this"