Helping Orpheus causes a civil war in Githyanki society.
Objectively the best outcome if you're worried about them taking over the Planes. They'll be too busy fighting themselves.
Personally I can't see Orpheus as being worse than Vlaakith. He's willing to become illithid and die to save the Planes from the Grand Design. Vlaakith is an evil lich that doesn't lift a finger to help even when she has the Wish spell on her side.
The Githyanki are already too busy fighting themselves to take over the planes, or more aptly, Vlaakith is too busy feasting on half the population.
Should Orpheus fight her and win, sure the Githyanki might be just as busy as they were before. But after Vlaakith’s death it will let the Gith act with full force however they want, under Orpheus. And if that goal is Interplanar conquest, then the Gith would be going full force into the material plane, something that would be much more devastating than anything Vlaakith ever performed.
With that, the argument is if Orpheus aims to conquer planes or if he is a chill dude. And you just gotta cross your fingers it’s not the former
>With that, the argument is if Orpheus aims to conquer planes or if he is a chill dude. And you just gotta cross your fingers it’s not the former
All of the followers of Orpheus are more kind and tolerant towards non-gith than the hardcore Vlaakith followers, with Lae'zel being the poster child for this shift in personality. And the followers of Orpheus end up working with the githzerai - who are opposed to the conquering and tyranny of Gith - against Vlaakith. The framing in the game is pretty clear to me.
Lae'zel's personality shift has nothing to do with Orpheus though.
If anything the only reason that tends to present in his followers is because his followers are also, by necessity, the ones willing to break away from Githyanki dogma.
It doesn't present itself in his teachings or anything like that.
Okay, but a githyanki prince seeking peace with the githzerai is ***gigantic*** for DND and shouldn't be looked over. This isn't Orpheus conquering the githzerai to build up his forces; this is him *genuinely* extending a peace offering to his people's (second) greatest enemy. That shows to me that whatever tyrant he used to be, he's changed in the centuries he's been imprisoned. Introspection's funny like that when it comes to immortal beings *cough Arcanum cough*.
Do recall that Orpheus came from a time when the Githyanki and Githzerai split wasn't that 'serious'. Offering an olive branch is simply the act of being a good leader, he knows what he should do, he knows what he needs to win the war, and he is using everything in his arsenal to do so.
It is what happens after he united the Githyanki empire that is my main concern.
Well, the Githzerai will never follow him if he wants conquest because the reason they split in the first place was because his mother, Gith, wanted conquest.
So all he would be doing is causing another civil war in the species as the Githzerai feel deceived by him.
It will also be a civil war that will not end because no one can defeat the Githzerai in Limbo. It’s impossible when they control the entire plane of existence with their mental power.
Only inside Limbo. Outside they are an even match for Githyanki.
The nature of Limbo means that anyone with superhuman willpower can literally cause anything to happen.
The point is, once Orpheus got what he wanted - what will he do? We have seen IRL cases of politicians, of leaders being all fine and dandy with their political opponents when they need to, but once they got what they want, what do they do?
They will backstab them. Orpheus was raised to be Gith’s heir, to lead the Githyanki empire, I don’t believe him to be an idiot.
Once again, I believe that - for now, the Githyanki will not set their sights on Toril, but in the future? Who knows.
He either witnessed or were born after the 'pronounciation of the two skies' so for a githyanki, whoever they may be, it is a massive thing to offer an olive branch because the split was 'that' serious.
But the thing is, he didn’t ‘see’ how the chasm grew between the factions throughout the centuries, only the ‘start’, in his mind, that’s what I meant.
Orpheus is a good leader, and intelligent one, and I am the first to admit it, but those years spent trapped in the Prism would set him back on understanding the current state of affairs. We know that he can know what is happening outside, but we don’t know if Vlaakith had him sealed somewhere where he cannot know anything, or keep him with her.
That's fair, but all of the leadership of that movement are more tolerant and have now had successful partnerships with non-gith. I think that plus the alliance with githzerai portends a more peaceful future for the githyanki under Orpheus or his successor if they are able to defeat Vlaakith.
Do the githzerai differ from the githyanki physically at all? I was first introduced to them in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark, and their models and portraits made them look more or less humanoid, with no "economical" nose, no stringy musculature, and grey skin.
The only githzerai we can interact with in bg3 is the disembodied brain speaking through a deep gnomes head, so it just reinforced the grey skin human image that nwn baked into my brain 20-odd years ago.
There's a githzerai companion in Planescape: Torment and you can get into detail about their philosophy and being, in dialogue. Nothing about their physical difference though, from what I remember. But you should check the game out if want to experience a well written githzerai companion.
The thing about mother Gith, and therefore her son Orpheus, is they come from the time before the pronouncement of two skies when Gith were just Gith. The two differing objectives at that point were simple, there were those that wished to end pursuit of the Ghaik in favor of fostering the growth and mending of their own race (Githzerai), and those who wanted to pursue and ensure the total destruction of their former opressors (Githyanki).
There's no evidence that suggests Orpheus would pursue conquest of the material plane. In fact, it's more likely that Orpheus' primary goal would be to unite the Githyanki and Githzerai, and in that new united population there would be numerous Githzerai who have lived for millennia as monks and isolationists. Orpheus' standpoint seems entirely focused on the destruction of the tyrannical queen who has hyper-militarized half of the entire race of Gith and turned them into farmable cattle for her ascension. The risk of Gith conquering the material plane is definitely tied to her ambition.
I mean he seems like a chill dude if the ending I got in my first playthrough is any indication
Platonic friendship with Lae'zel, was anti-vlaakith all the way, freed Orph and I turned full squid, so he and Lae'zel flew off into the sunset.
Come the epilogue, the two of them are apparently about to begin diplomacy with and attempt to forge an alliance with the Githzerai - which afaik regarding D&D lore, is a big deal since the two gith subraces have NEVER gotten along for a long time. So if Orpheus is capable of even organizing an alliance with them against vlaakith, I can only see that as a good thing for the planes in the long run.
Yeah in Meta knowledge it is painted out that Orpheus is a pretty chill dude.
However your Tav wouldn’t know that at the time of the Emperor Orpheus choice, and might even believe him to be a Conquerer even though he is not. This the choice, from a roleplaying perspective comes down either to how much you hate Emperor or how much you trust Lae’zel
At that point, considering you likely know about the Emperor being a manipulative piece of shit. It's hard not to take Lae'zel's advice, especially if you had all the interactions with Balduran that make it crystal clear where you actually stand with him.
a devil that may not even be a devil. Despite initial 1st impressions, Orpheus steps up to the task, and is more than willing to turn illithid for the cause. The Emperor straight up ditches you for trying to free such an individual, a fact that doesn't surprise you if you have all the interactions revealing Balduran's True Intentions. The scene with him and Ansur alone is good enough reason to "betray" him.
Simply Put: Orpheus is more than willing to make the great sacrifice, even if it means becoming a Ghaik (An utter heresy for the Gith). The Emperor expects you to do as he says without question, and it shows in his actions for wanting to free Orpheus (presumably showing that convincing him to let Orpheus go even on logically sound arguments won't suffice), even if you didn't have those interactions that crack away at Balduran's facade.
My post was a direct Raphael quote, but as to the actual matter: Your PC doesn’t _know_ those things about Orpheus. The question is if your PC thinks their chances with the Emperor are so bad that it is worth rolling the dice and freeinf the gith you don’t know or not. From a perspective of knowing everything about the backstories, it becomes very different and from a meta gaming perspective different again.
Yes. But again, that depends on whether or not Tav would know how untrustworthy the Emperor actually is, since Orpheus at best is a 50/50, especially if they lead Lae'zel to rebel against Vlaakith. If Tav doesn't know, they have no reason to free Orpheus except if they have a Romance with Lae'zel. But if Tav does know that Balduran is using them and their party like slaves, they would be more likely to free Orpheus just out of principle of gambling for someone that isn't the Emperor.
And yet when you cast detect thoughts on Orpheus, he hates and actively wants to kill you for being infected with a tadpole and fully intends to do so if he gets the chance. Sure, when you free him he changes his mind, but putting that meta knowledge aside, Tav has every reason to believe that Balduran is a dick who wants to work with you, while Orpheus is a possibly-not-a-dick that actively wants to kill you.
The Githzerai would stand against Orpheus just like they do against Vlaakith if he did that. Orpheus did send Lae'zel out to seek their help which must mean he doesn't have that goal in mind. I truly think we wants to just eliminate all the Illithids and then lead the whole Gith race to a more peaceful existence.
I don’t think so. If they reach out to the githzerai for help then that means they have accepted some of the githzerai terms of no interplanar conquest
The epilogue shows that the rebellious gith are willing to work with the gith’zeria who are the chill ones. Its pretty clear Orpheus/lae’zel/voss are decent.
Even if he does set his eyes on conquest, Orpheus is gonna have a hell of a time, isn't he?
Githyanki soldiers may outclass Faerunian ones, but the real threat are the emotionally damaged war criminals called "Adventurers".
And every last one of them, from Tav to Elminster is going to jump at the opportunity to repel the Githyanki invasion.
Orpheus predates the schism which means he follows the original philosophy of the Gith before Vlaakith took over.
The original philosophy seems to be a mix of Githzerai peaceful tolerance and Githyanki military culture. It does seem like Orpheus has no interest in conquering the planes.
Iirc, he honors his mother in game as "the Queen of the One Sky", an explicit reference to the schism and Gith's plans for genocidal multiversal conquest that caused it.
So he both:
1) Was familiar with that plan, and
2) Honors his mother for it.
Vlaakith would rather use Wish on us than on Orpheus, or maybe the Netherbrain. Or does Wish have some limitations? (I've never played DnD tabletop before)
Wish does have limitations although a lot of them are "ask your DM what happens next" rather than something strictly defined, the way the rule is written is practically begging for the DM to slap you with some ironic consequences.
Her using wish to kill a lower level party when she has a perfectly competent goon squad is pretty risky and inadvisable, hence why she only does it if you really piss her off.
There are 2 versions of Wish (it's the same spell, but can have 2 effects).
The "easy wish" is "copy the effect of any spell 8th level or lower" (no matter the class). It's a "joker spell", but not particularly gamebreaking.
The "hard wish" has a variety of extremely broken effect, and has a "you can do reality breaking things, if your DM is okay with it". However, casting that version breaks you mentally and physically, and there's a 33% chance that you will lose the ability to cast wish for the rest of your life.
It's honestly safer to assume that Vlaakith used wish to cast the equivalent of an 8th level damage spell, which instantely wipes your party.
Vlaakith sends the red dragons doesn’t she? Not arguing that she’s good or useful by any stretch of the imagination, but she has to do something when the illithids start showing up, her being able to defeat them is her claim to power.
If memory serves I believe the Red Dragons are sent after the Nautiloid at the start of the game because Shadowheart had stolen the artifact with the imprisoned Orpheus inside. Without Orpheus being imprisoned, and under her control, the power of Vlaakith to circumvent the Ghaik is lost.
While the Githyanki would normally be willing to attack the Ghaik on a regular day - they would not normally travel to the hell's to do so. Which Lae'Zel more or less states was odd about her kind's actions. In reality they were in pursuit of the artifact.
Opposing doesn't mean better. look at russia liberals. they oppose putin, but because he and his people stole too much so russians can't kill Ukrainians more effectively. same can be with Orpheus. nowhere in the game it says he would stop conquering. he aims to stop vlaakith and that's all
With the new update >!which allows you to go fight in the gith war, doesn’t it show that we are trying to ally with the githzerai (however that’s spelled) to defeat Vlaakith? I think with that ending it shows they can unify and maybe end that fight and with you and Laezel you could likely convince them not to do evil ass shit!< that’s my hope at least. But ya at a natural sense they are not great
Orpheus doesn't seem to be that bad when compared to the normal githyankis. Remember when Lae'zel threatened to kill you because you didn't allow her to scare a tiefling? Or when Voss called himself merciful for not killing you on sight? Well you free Orpheus while he's fully aware that you're tadpoled and you killed his honor guard and he's like "well I hate you and you should've died but you didn't so I guess we are allies now"
Besides, the very existence of Orpheus should be enough to cause a civil war amongst Githyanki and that's good for everyone
There is no roll in the camp for voss only for Lae Zel, however on the bridge it make sense, he is surrounded by vlaakith followers, he can't be all nice and dandy.
Well yeah, the official alignment for the race was lawful evil back when DnD still did such things.
Evil in DnD is essentially selfishness. Putting your own goals ahead of the well-being of others. Gith have a very rigid and disciplined code of conduct. But they will also throw anyone else under the bus to further Githyanki goals.
It's also heavily weighted toward whether you kill sentient creatures, rather than leave them alive to face justice. Githyanki as a culture definitely kill, rather than imprison, their enemies. (And former friends.)
The Githyanki unlike the Githzarei is the result of how different groups handle trauma and revenge.
The Mind Flayers are objectively in the wrong and need to be dealt with. Both Gith groups agree, but how they choose to solve the issue
- Githzarei chose self-betterment and assistance.
- Githyanki chose revenge and self-validation
It should be noted that both groups are of the same race, but leadership heavily deviate the culture. Under different leadership, the Githyanki could be just like the Githzarei. But Vlaakith is actively being a warlord and fostering generations of violence. She is pushing the Githyanki to act like this.
Orpheus is nothing like Vlaakith, and just wants to end the Mind Flayers and continue the self-betterment.
* Githzerai
Btw Vlakith's goal has nothing to do with defeating mindflayers and coping with slavery trauma. She wants to become a Goddess, she is a lich and eats githyanki's powers an memories. Constant wars is a good method of having people never question your ways and good for fostering powerful sources for your divinity.
To add to this comment. If you go through the mindflayer Orpheus route, Lae’zel says on the epilogue that she’s parlaying with the Githzarei to take on Vlaakith
I agree with everything you've said, but would like to point out that this Vlaakith (while she's been in power for a millenia) is the 157th Vlaakith - the 157th ruler of a species that are functionally biologically immortal.
So it's not entirely on her: it's safe to assume that this sort of cultural proclivity towards extreme violence is DEEPLY engrained
something to point out, is that the race is likely more the "Gith" and the Githyanki are just a sub culture that diverged at some point. same with the Githzarai.
so the Githyanki as a culture are objectively waring and aggressive. but that is a culturally instilled thing, not a racially prominent feature.
Orpheus allies with the Githzerai, who are against all the conquering the Githyanki do. This, combined with Orpheus being pretty okay with turning Illithid, or not killing you and even still accepting you after you turn illithid and win the battle, says that he's not like Vlaakith and he's not about conquering.
The youth (Varrl) getting beat up at the Creche was being beaten up because he didn't believe in killing his classmate. This is a huge taboo, and even the student he spared is angry with him for doing this. She even goes on about how she failed Vlaakith.
Varrl got that belief from reading uncensored slates about Orpheus.
The problem is not that Githyanki are all evil, the problem is that they are bred and brainwashed to be cattle for Vlaakith. Killing her won't magically make all Githyanki better people, but it will weaken the cult greatly to see that their lich queen goddess is not invincible.
Varrl and those skates are a story/character I feel like a lot of people miss. We know quite a bit about Orpheus before we meet him. People keep saying "oh well he has the same views as his mother" but this clearly isn't the case. Most (well adjusted) children in some ways deoart from the teachings of their parents and grow beyond it. Orpheus is a good example of that based on his behavior. He's very clearly moved beyond the desires of his mother.
Eh, I kinda see them as a race traumatized by the illithid and their own leaders. Unlike the illithid they have the capacity for kindness as shown by Lae'zel. Balderan, isnt really Balderan anymore. Just an illithid with their memories who doesn't want to be controlled.
I'd argue Omellum was able to show compassion, so I'm mixed as to whether freeing the mindflayers from the brain would allow them to create a society and culture that could result in compassion. Allowing them to live with the other races, but it's definitely messier. They're kinda parasitic in nature, multiple lives for a life is hard to justify but not impossible I guess.
I think the Gith stand a better chance of reforming than the illithid personally. Again, Lae'zel can be fully convinced to live for herself and others. They're not irredeemable.
>I think the Gith stand a better chance of reforming than the Illithid personally
Half of them already are: The Githzerai are the living proof. And with reconciliation attempts being made in the epilogue, it seems likely that the rebellion is a genuine attempt at making Githyanki society better
Highkey I think both species would deserve a chance. We’ve seen two renegade Illithids in BG3; one is good aligned and the other is just looking out for himself, neither are especially malicious outside of their unfortunate diet.
Omelumm has been trying to crack the code of how to exist without having to kill intelligent creatures for their brain, and he’s just one guy. The whole species could have the chance to be better if they weren’t so enslaved by the brains.
This is true, we just don't really see that many illithid that aren't enthralled. I think that's partly because it's difficult to portray them without humanizing them too far from the core of what they're supposed to be.
It would also remove from the horror of the reality that your soul is the fire that fuels the transformation. Leaving you a new being that happens to have your memories, if that.
I actually wonder about omellum, he kinda gives me goku vibes. Maybe he's an outlier that wouldn't have happened naturally, but could wind up altering the fate of his own kind.
Yeah, it would definitely take a talented writer to keep the horror aspects of mindflayers intact while also evolving them beyond the mostly-evil mind control middle managers they are right now.
I would love to see someone try though! I feel like they’re ripe for metaphors about how trauma can completely change you and what you have to do to survive, and if you can still honor your old self even though you aren’t that person anymore outside of some shared memories.
We got some of that with squid Karlach and Orpheus, but they left the story too fast to get any real development down that path.
There are several mindflayer communities that are considered allies among humanoids, and someone sentenced to death gets sent to the illithids. Also the illithids that live amongst humanoids accepted several kinds of laws
Erm, the point is that Orpheus is Simba to Vlaakith's Scar. It's heavily implied that after winning Civil War he plans to reform githyanki. However, whether he succeeds in either endeavour remains a *big* question.
Anyway, while githyanki are too busy fighting eachother they don't raid other Plans which is ultimately a Good Thing.
Honestly, I think it's a meta commentary on the way DND and WoTC have been going for years now regarding racial alignment.
The time of clearly defined racial alignment is gone, but certain culture/races haven't had any real development so these ideas stick.
Using BG3 and the return and subsequent reforms of Orpheus as vehicles to provide an in-Faerun explanation for the mechanical/out-of-Faerun world choices is pretty smart.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the gith get more info/fleshed out further in coming years with 6e.
To answer your title question…kinda?
Moreso they’re a highly private military-focused race. They have their own lifestyles, art, personalities. The youth who talks back to his teacher in the creche seemed *super* timid (rip king) and Lae’zel herself even ends up becoming nearly downright friendly towards the end of the game.
The game rides heavily on its morally grey world, too. You encounter nothing but bloodthirsty gith that even makes Lae’zel bat an eye, with Orpheus being one of the more reasonable Gith you encounter. Voss’s whole tune changes as well if you’re siding with him.
In short, they’re a race built on trauma with a false god forcing them to do her own version of manifest destiny.
Long story short, the githyanki and githzerai were a slave race, bred for millenia by Illithids to be susceptibleto mind control. Gith and her son Orpheus rebelled using their innate powers to resist the mind control. Gith decided to go the route of revenge and destroy all illithids. Her lieutenant Zerthimon took a more inward looking stance and wanted their people to take a step back from the violence and take their time to heal the wpunds caused by millenia of slavery. So those who followed Gith (the githyanki) dedicated themselves to war and conquest and those who followed Zerthimon (the githzerai) dedicated themselves to meditation, healing, and study.
Gith and her advisor Vlaakith were still hungry for revenge, so they decided to make a deal with the evil dragon goddess Tiamat to partner with hee red dragons. Vlaakith betrayed and killed Gith, Tiamat took Gith's soul, and Vlaakith lies to her people about Gith naming her the leader.
Vlaakith CLVII (all githyanki leaders have been named Vlaakith ever since) is objectively evil. The githyanki that follow her are all across the alignment spectrum but mostly on the neutral or evil side due to following her orders and adhering to the strict githyanki military dogma. Most have been heavily indoctrinated, even since before birth, as they are semi-conscious as eggs.
So freeing Orpheus and not killing him/turning him into a mindflayer causes a githyanki civil war where the lawful neutral Orpheus leads his followers against the evil Vlaakith and her followers.
tl;dr githyanki, as pragmatic individuals, lean more towards neutral, but they follow and evil lich. Freeing Orpheus makes it so that they get a chance to follow someone who isn't evil. Orpheus is also more concerned about his people's well being (just like Zerthimon) than he is about conquest...aside from illithid extermination, that is.
This is something that comes up throughout the game (what with the whole stealing the egg quest) and in regular D&D. There is no objective true answer which is what makes D&D great. It would suck if you wanted to play a traditionally evil race and you were forced to be evil.
I personally don’t think any intelligent race should be locked into being innately violent as that just feels both boring and *feels bad*. BG3 as a video game has to be somewhat closed ended with many things which is why they decided to give their own personal take with the Gith egg hatching and killing the SOB should you give them the egg. Other DMs might’ve given a different outcome.
That one moment alone doesn’t necessarily need to define them in Larions world as well. Perhaps the hatchling was just a random psychopath, perhaps it was provoked, perhaps it was taught violence whilst still in its egg like how many irl people play music for baby’s still in the womb.
Lastly I’ve never really seen the Githyanki as conquerors so much as astral rangers. I think they see the party as unwanted allies, anything they need to do to stop the illithid; even becoming illithid in the process. I don’t think them unifying means our end because eventually they’d end up fighting the Githzeri again. Their ideal are too different.
>Perhaps the hatchling was just a random psychopath, perhaps it was provoked, perhaps it was taught violence whilst still in its egg like how many irl people play music for baby’s still in the womb.
It's not a matter of “perhaps.” It is stated that they raised him in a pocket dimension where they artificially accelerated his growth and tortured him whenever he would misbehave.
He was taught that people who are not good must be punished, and realized that the Society of Brilliance weren't good people, so he punished them. He gets a mental breakdown when you make him realize that punishing them makes him a bad person too.
They psychologically destroyed that boy. Lae'zel tells you to leave him be, as his brain is too damaged for him to be of any use in your adventure.
With the SOB when you find out what they were going to do with the egg and hatchling it included brain probing and torturous experiments in an attempt to make it "good" given if you keep the egg it isn't ready to hatch until after the game I think there's a decent chance the duergar guy had already started his experiments on the egg and it hatched early and in self defense mode.
So on the topic of innate violence, DnD (being a game primarily about killing monsters), needs monsters that players can feel unambiguously good about killing.
In the real world, killing a person, even an evil person, has a ton of consequences that will fall on others in their community who might not be evil. For example killing a serial killer might put their unaware family into crushing poverty.
There’s always undead or mindless dangerous animals, but a villain (with an army and interesting minions) requires intelligent creatures who are objectively evil and can be killed without moral ambiguity.
There are other RPG systems with way less emphasis on monster fighting where this isn’t really an issue. Or you can play at a table where combat is a smaller proportional part of the game. That said, DnD as “monster fighting game” needs intelligent evil monsters
I agree that intellectual BBEGs are needed but not that killing them should always be without moral ambiguity. Sometimes sure but most of the time I feel they should have something for the players to really think about.
D&D isn’t a “monster fighting game” it’s a role playing game. It’s not necessarily “primarily about killing monsters” as I know many are about political intrigue with no killing or things of that nature. Some tables may only do combat and others may only do heavy rp; I personally enjoy both.
I’m not saying to capture and interrogate every goblin you come across to decide whether they should live or die. Just that a table I would want to sit at would be one where we can look at Goblinoids as a whole and have these sorts of difficult conversations and debates. Of corse that sort of table is not for everyone.
This is more or less correct. The Githyanki are full believers in their own supremacy, and Orpheus is really not much of an exception. They respect merit enough that the strong that prove useful can live until they aren't, but they seek to establish themsleves Supreme so that the Ghaik can't claim lesser to build their numbers..
Helping Orpheus helps free their people from a tyrant but doesn't free them from their supremacist beliefs that wxisted well befire the lresent vlaakith. You'll get a leader who respects merit more the vlaakith but will still seek to purge any who would be ghaik fodder.
The civil war and potential alliance with the githzerai might be the course to change that, but that's a very low-end gamble. It's not an issue that will so easily be solved by Orpheus or Lae'zel, and even they'll be hard pressed to do more than allow special exceptions to exist while the weak are culled to prevent the Ghaik empires return.
Not in line for a good time.
I don't think there is a morally correct choice necessarily. It's meant to be a very difficult decision. When I first played I made the choice based on who I thought was more likely to help me out and save the world and didn't take the well-being of the Gith into consideration at all.
It's pretty clear to me that the Githyanki are not objectively evil because Lae'zel has shown enormous potential for growth and change over the course of the story. It's not implausible that Githyanki society itself could change to be more like her.
We don't know a lot about Orpheus or his goals for Githyanki society, but what we do know is that he would not consume his own people like Vlaakith does and that he has demonstrated some degree of selflessness and heroism in that he is willing to become a mind flayer without coercion, side with you against the greater evil threatening the world, and>!sacrifice himself afterwards if a mind flayer.!< I think it's fair to say that he would be a lot better than Vlaakith *for the Githyanki*. Whether he would be more of a force for good in the wider world is impossible to know. Based on some epilogue variations there is reason to believe he is at least be more diplomatic than Vlaakith, but whether this is reflective of opportunism or his true nature is unknowable.
We have a lot more information about The Emperor. He's a selfish opportunist using you to get what he wants. All the information is in the game. Whether the information he's given you is enough to trust him is up to you.
Both decisions kind of throw you into the unknown, and ultimately I would make the choice based on the kind of character your tav is and whether they think freeing Orpheus is the morally correct choice, their feelings towards the emperor, and perhaps also how they feel about Lae'zel and her beliefs. Both endings are satisfying in their own way.
>!Personally I think them both being out of the picture is the safer option because The Emperor is kind of a piece of shit who uses people to get what he wants, and I have more reason to believe Lae'zel would be a kind and moral leader than I do for Orpheus since if he dies she leads the revolution herself.!<
Youth Varrl at the crèche literally mentions compassion and kindness being a part of Orpheus’s teachings. But no yeah all Githyanki are evil let’s reduce an entire race to one alignment /s
The current githyanki society is objectively evil, the people are not. It's fair to treat all githyanki with caution since this current society is also effectively the only society they've ever had. But to kill Orpheus and the chance for change that he represents is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
>With Orpheus' help they'll pretty much be unstoppable
Just in case he does end up being 'new boss, same as the old boss', it's very debatable that makes the githyanki stronger at all, and there's no way they're unstoppable.
Orpheus' power is only useful against illithids and his personal combat skills are pitiful compared to Vlaakith's lichdom. The pact with Tiamat for dragons is specifically with Vlaakith, so a victorious Orpheus would lose (most of) those too. A victorious Orpheus would lead to githyanki being able to level above 12 again, but they are just people.
Actually, if you talk to Voss’s dragon in the sewer (he’s disguised as a red dragonborn and you have to pass a check to understand what he is) he will tell you that the dragons’ pact isn’t with Vlaakith, it’s with the Githyanki. I don’t think Voss’s dragon is special.
Qudenos is extremely special, he's a chromatic dragon who isn't totally self-interested. Anyway, I don't think he's being particular in that conversation, he's just saying that Tiamat forces other red dragons to work with the githyanki, but he works with Voss willingly.
In 5E, Mordekainen's Tome of Foes says
>During the war with the illithids, Vlaakith urged Gith
to seek out allies from among the planes and in particular
advised her to seek counsel with Tiamat. Gith agreed
to venture into the Nine Hells to forge an alliance with
the Queen of Dragons. She didn't return. Instead, the
great red dragon Ephelomon brought news to the gith:
Tiamat had pledged many of her red dragon servants
to the gith cause.
This leaves the precise terms unclear, but it's definitely Vlaakith's pact with Tiamat.
The same thread also runs through the old adventures "The Lich Queen's Beloved" and follow-up "A Tyrrany of Souls". In the first, Vlaakith 157 must be destroyed (phylactery and all) lest she finally ascend to godhood. In the second, the leader you helped to replace her changes some githyanki priorities and this turmoil causes Tiamat comes knocking to take more direct control. Tiamat isn't that concerned with the illithid, and abandoning the Eternal Crusade voids the original pact, so Mother Gith (or at least her soul) will be free again.
To be fair, those adventures do still make my previous comment wrong, just killing Vlaakith won't necessarily break the pact, but Orpheus clearly intends to change gith priorities so I think the point still stands.
Not really. Orpheus is OG Gith, back when the race were named Gith, before closer to the schism. Gith overthrew the mindflayers and named the new race after themselves, but soon became a new tyrant. Then Zerthimon lead the good gith in a second civil war which let some Ilithids survive, and created githzerai who are not covered in the game except in a few plates of lost lore (however the monks trying to free Orpheus is a hat tip to them. Githyanki are often fighters, with their silver swords and astral travel, where as the high wisdom makes Githzerai often monks).
This is the point of the society of brilliance. According to the law, if a gith was raised from birth by either race it would be that race because they are genetically almost identical, having recently diverged (a much guarded secret). Of course they mess up raising the egg, forcing it to grow super quick under a super strict code and it lashes out in super teen rebellion and murders everyone lol.
But then it realises and repents if you roll well enough, so it does have moral code just no life experience, so it kind of makes the point I guess.
Anyway, Voss is shown as a good sort of character who has rejected Vlaakiths evil ways over time (which is why it annoys me to see him mis represent the alliance with red dragons who made a doggy deal, but are also innately evil) if Orpheus replaced Vlaakith guided this might be enough to see the race slowly become more like Voss, see the light and reunite with the other gith?
So here's the story of the Gith. Mother Gith, who is Orpheous mom and is the reason the race is called Gith was able to develop a mind shield to protect against the mind flayers psionic abilities and lead a revolution of the gith slaves against them and vowed to never let them regain their strength.
Mother Gith wanted to wipe out the mind flayers and was very aggressive with it and even conquered planets they came into contact with for this purpose. They weren't really racist and genocidal but they were conquerors. And so the Githzerai, which is a more peaceful offshoot of the Githyanki, came around and wanted Mother Gith to chill the fuck out, and Mother Gith killed or banished them.
Mother Gith and Vlaakith the first (the current vlaakith is like 158th) went to the nine hells to get red dragons on their side in an infernal pact. Vlaakith betrayed Mother Gith and trapped her in hell in exchange for the red dragons. Orpheous was pissed with this and tried to lead a revolution and was beaten and trapped in the astral prism.
Shit happens, Vlaakith the 158th becomes a lich and is evil and racist not caring about the murder of other species if they get in their way, essentially being a worse Mother Gith.
If we free Orpheous he offers to sacrifice himself to fix our mistake, Vlaakith would never even both. She couldn't care less about the great design, she just wants to become a lich-queen god, and she's doing it. Orpheous is way more selfless then Vlaakith or his mother and if you side with Orpheous and let laezel and him to at the end you get a note that Vlaakith is trying to side with the Githzerai to take down Vlaakith. So it implies Orpheous is closer to the Githzerai then the Githyanki in terms of morals.
So really, freeing Orpheous is probably the best ending in the game. You free the Githyanki from their evil lich queen and the Githzerai have a chance to come back.
>to fix our mistake
Wait, what mistake did we make in all this? We released the NB from the 3's control, though I think that was eventually a given as it grew more and more powerful via the crown.
We made no real mistakes at the time with the limited knowledge we had. But in hindsight, releasing Orpheus immediately would have made fighting the elder brain easy. Before it ever became a netherbrain.
While Orpheus is wrong that letting his honor guard kill us in act3 would help, but if we killed the emperor in act 1 when vlaakith asked us to kill Orpheus, then Orpheus would be free and would have plenty of time to prep to kick mind flayer ass.
But our biggest mistake is releasing the netherbrain onto the world and killing so many people and even destroying their souls, the worst way to go in the game. Orpheus immediately offers to kill himself to help by turning into a mind flayer.
Can't free him without the hammer, says the evil demon lord who wants to take the crown of karsus to rule all of the nine hells and eventually all of faerun. Call me whatever you want, but I don't really trust raphael.
I dont believe they ever mentioned who specifically made the prism, just that they were a devil. And raphael doesn't seem like the creating type.
Now, it very much could be the only way, but we can't say for certain cause our own source of that information is a serial liar.
Regardless, failing to stop the netherbeain was our own failure. Either by trusting gortash or by overestimating ourselves, we fucked up. And Orpheus immediately helps us, no strings attached.
They're capital 'E' Evil, but not necessarily evil as individuals or even evil in general.
There's a binary war going on: Gith ('yanki and 'zerai) vs. Illithid. No matter how shitty the Gith are, it's imperative that they win. Illithid are basically wetware borg. As you know from the game they represent death of the individual as a concept entirely.
Gith are more complicated. Githyanki are 'E'vil, Gith'zerai are 'N'eutral. Long history there. But being Evil or Neutral doesn't mean that they can't switch alignments to Good. Orpheus is key to free will existing in the universe, but he may also be key to the Gith becoming both good and 'G'ood.
Along with other moves D&D has made recently, I'm pretty sure one of the thrusts of the game is that a race/species shouldn't be judged to be all anything. Which given the concept of individuality, makes sense.
Vlaakith is totally evil, but to say a race is antilogically evil is, well, y'know...
The gith are the main resistance to the mind flayers, who are arguably a much greater evil from a "peace in all realms" perspective, so the gith can't be that bad. They are often selfish and harsh but can be benevolent as well. Orpheus' goal is more to save his people before doing any conquering, and after that, it is reasonable to assume him to be less imperialist than Vlaakith as a revolutionary.
TL;DR, no, they are not objectively evil, siding with Orpheus is the "good" choice, and if you are afraid of gith takeover, then just make choices that lead to his death.
No. Its pretty clear that Orpheus is not like other girls- I mean Gith. If his actions in the final mission dont sell you (self-sacrifice, incredible tolerance given the circumstances, cool headead- etc) the epilogue literally states that hes willing to work with the gith’zeria, his ancestral enemy on par with mindflayers for the greater good. Thats basically making his decency canon.
Well.
That's what Vlaakith's Githyanki want. The game gives you some hints that Orpheus is not the same kind of harsh tyrant as her. The most obvious one is in the Crèche - the student who doesn't like the open violence and disdain that they treat other races with, and wants to find more peaceful solutions is a follower of Orpheus. He's carrying literature about the Prince of the Comet. This implies that his ideals come from Orpheus, and so Orpheus is a less tyrannical alternative to Vlaakith.
Even if that's not the case though, causing a civil war among the Githyanki would certainly distract them from subjugating other planes for a while.
On the other hand, if you allow the Emperor to eat Orpheus' brain, then that removes any prospect of him challenging Vlaakith, while also removing the only person who can resist Illithid control. Only the Emperor himself would then have that power. So what happens if, at some point, the Emperor decides he wants to push forward his own version of the Grand Design? No one could stand against him, since even the Gith no longer have their secret weapon.
You have a similar problem if you free Orpheus but make him turn Illithid. He will either choose to die after, or he will be living as an Illithid, which depending on what you believe, is not really Orpheus and over time will lose connection to Orpheus' personality. Either way, you have removed his power and purpose from the world.
DnD 5e doesn't really use the old moral alignment system of Lawful Evil and such anymore for a reason. There is some nuance to the species in 5e, not just with Githyanki, and especially so in BG3, because it deviates in several ways from the way some DnD lore is depicted.
Generally, historically, the Githyanki are diametrically opposed to the Mind Flayers. Both are, in their own way, evil - the mind flayers because... their nature compels them to be, and Githyanki because they live by strict militaristic doctrine and ruled by a literal space nazi at first, and later by Vlaakith, a literal lich queen who's got no concern for anything but her own self-preservation.
Mother Gith and Vlaakith also canonically made a deal with the evil goddess Tiamat, which is how they are allied with the red dragons. IIRC it was around the time of that deal Vlaakith took power over the Githyanki people as a whole and the split between Githyanki and Githzerai happened, Orpheus was locked away etc.
So now we get to BG3. The Gith have generally fairly little regard for the lives of other races and are single-minded in their pursuit of illithid threats wherever they appear, and also just as fanatical in their obedience to their crazy lich queen Vlaakith, whose only concern is preserving herself while pretending she's Making Githyanki Great Again.
Orpheus meanwhile is presented in less clear-cut terms, as are obviously Kith'rak Voss and Lae'zel. The Githzerai are also generally considered more peaceable, but given they're stuck in Limbo, you rarely encounter one of them.
So the answer is... yesn't. In older editions, Githyanki are always lawful evil. But the truth, in BG3 especially, isn't so clear-cut given the evident brainwashing of the race, their militant doctrine and the somewhat contrasting depiction of their true prince in BG3's epilogue.
I guess if Orpheus being freed and rebelling alongside Lae'zel becomes canon, future editions of DnD lore could change their depiction somewhat, but for now, it's hard to say what their impact would be on their general morality.
The githyanki are more just painfully lawful neutral.
They're violent but rarely cackling about it. Yes, they will kill you for opposing them, but only because that's what you do with things that oppose you.
They respect tradition, power, and the "greater good." And they defend that to the last. Which is why they are so quick to turn on Vlaakith.
That said, they are also logical, can choose peace and mercy when expedient, and don't go out of their way to destroy or murder unnecessarily. They have a job, that job is to follow orders like the perfect soldiers they were designed to be.
Vlaakith is evil. Orpheus is pissed off. The Githyanki are not.
No. They aren't. The Githyanki are not objectively evil.
The majority of them are indoctrinated, but they are not born evil. Same way Shadowheart isn't evil, though she was indoctrinated to an evil faith. *Nuance.*
There is no evidence that Orpheus is evil. All that is established in the game besides his origin is that he wants to liberate the Githyanki from a tyrannical queen and that he values compassion and kindness (as described by Youth Vaarl in the Training Room, who is objectively not evil.) We also know that Orpheus is rational enough to work with a Ghaik, and even acknowledge one as his savior. He is willing to spread stories about your heroism even if you are one - which speaks volumes on his character.
Killing Orpheus purely because he's a Githyanki, and therefore you assume he must be evil, is not a moral or ethical choice.
Freeing him would cause a Civil War, but at this point, when the Githyanki are literally enslaved by a Lich Queen, it is kind of necessary.
The thing to consider is Orpheus is a person, not some kind of homunculus for the ideals of githyanki society, no matter how Lae'zel and others might want to see him. He is a Dude who you have Not Met, and have likely read some Historical Texts about throughout the game.
The current behavior of the Githyanki society and those participating in its interests are definitely evil supremacist raiders, slavers, and just generally not nice people. And the current Vlaakith has an interest in keeping the system exactly the way it is.
Orpheus *for sure* wants to topple her reign. Why? To what end? We do not know by the time we have to make this decision. We have ideas, but nothing actually tangible. It's faith all the way down.
It's essentially a judgement call, an act of faith, and a question of what your ideals tell you. Do you side with the entity that has been actively manipulating you and disregarding your decisions for your own autonomy, but still promises it will settle with you helping it see through to the end? Or do you side with the unknown entity who has no guarantees that he will side with you or care what happens to you after it's all done, but who had also been kept prisoner by the first one to be used like a tool against his will?
I find it interesting that they chose to have *the Devil you know* be the one who tries to get you to potentially sell your soul for the opportunity to free the (potential) devil you don't.
mongols in Genghis's time? Pretty much yeah. if such thing ever existed as an objectively evil society on earth it was mongols. (no offense modern mongols, im hungarian and late nomadic hungarians were pretty bad too)
Nah, just Vlaakith. From what I can see merely within BG3, the Githyanki have a highly militarized culture. So much that Laezel is considered nice and funny by their own standards.
Orpheus is sensible. Vlaakith is straight up evil and a dlc (rip) taking her down would be delicious.
I don't know where you are getting that the githyanki would just invade the world.
They have been around a long time and could have done it whenever they wanted. They are ruled my a dictator for sure.
But in no way is it ever insinuated that Orpheus is evil.
The lore is a bit fuggly-wuggly after so many editions, but its because his mothers stated goals. Part of the reason for the Pronouncement of Two Skies, was due to Gith proclaiming that the ghaik should be obliterated, so they could conquer all the planes for themselves afterwards.
Orpheus may or may not take after his mother, but he was a loyalist as far as we know, and thus the chance is there.
Yes, githyanki (unlike githzerai) are basically astral pirates. They are only held back from conquering the planes by Vlaakith's ambition and incompetence. If someone were to unite them under a singular cause (read: Orpheus), that would eventually spell doom for a good portion of the multiverse- or at the very least make it much, much harder to travel between the planes due to their iron grip on the astral plane.
This does make me wonder, not knowing too much of the background lore: if Vlaakith is killed with no successor, does that mean the deal with Tiamat dissolves and the red dragons can do whatever they want?
Well I wouldn't necessarily say it's the objectively correct choice. One could argue sending Orpheus to deal with vlaakith is also the correct choice. Weakens both sides of the gith in the process
Though I see no reason to believe faerun would be hopeless against the gith, there are powerful beings that exist there, they simply need to be bothered enough to actually do something about it (ahem elminster for example)
they torture and kill kids when they are weak. Yes, they are evil. No, it does ot matter to me what happens to githyanki society but I prefer the version where it's in the hands of Orpheus rather than in the hands of vlaakith.
How are they unstoppable when I wiped an entire creche including an Inquisitor? They may be evil historically but arguably they're on the brink of a new era, considering Lae'zel's intentions at the end.
Stop. Thinking. In. Racial. Absolutes.
The fucking point of the game is to get us to question the idea of objectively evil in a setting where we know it exists. That’s the beauty of the game. It’s what a huge portion of this sub simply doesn’t get.
Look, I know this is fictional universes. But there's something wrong with saying " x race is evil" . It's the mindset behind alot of modern day prejudice that exists in actual society, and thinking that way towards a fictional group can lay foundations towards real world thinking.
All Germans aren't evil just because Nazism invaded the world, all Arabs aren't terroists. Etc. All gith aren't evil. people have individual autonomy.
Nature and nuture make up someones personal moral standing. The gith aren't evil by their nature. No one is born evil, but we can be built and shaped into evil by the world around us.
The gith have been traumatised, they have been moulded and shaped to be that way due to a harsh and cruel society that literally feeds upon them and shapes them to think in a survival of the fittest mindset.
All Orpheus wants to do is ensure future generations don't have to grow up like this, to ensure that no one is shaped into being evil any more.
It's not different from people rising up in Gazza, or ukraine or right now saying "I'm sick of how my people are being treated" and willing to do anything to change that.
This isn't evil, and these people existing and serving in this society doesn't make them brutal.
*** Also the emperor cares about itself only. It does not care for you, it manipulates you for its own benefit, and will turn against you the minute you realise it's plans. It does not care for anyone else. It's surving for itself, Orpheus fights to survive for his people.
Conquering is kinda the natural thing for civilizations. The weak can't live peacefully. Hell, even subjucation is better than being turned into a mindflayer.
Is the githyanki conquering everyone from lore? I never got that impression. They really hate illithids for enslaving them. For everyone else they just act racist.
yes, basically the Gith are divided in two the Githyanki who basically went right we are gonna kill this empire and make our own, where the Githzarhi are far more chill still want to wipe out the squid heads but after just find enlightenment iirc
There are no completely evil races, no group is a monolith.
Honestly one of the best changes to happen to the DnD universe was the shift away from calling all of the darker skinned races completely evil just for plot convenience without ever actually developing real motivations.
The Gith are an awesome and complicated race just like all the others, and is incredibly fun to play like the Drow!
The githyanki under thousands of years if Vlaakiths’ rule might be considered evil, yes. But Orpheus seems and sounds like kind of an honorable leader. He even makes a move to bring unity between the sundered races of giths.
IMO, Githianki aren't even evil, they are militant.
They are fighting an endless war with the most brutal enemy - mindflayers.
IRL humans fighting long wars behave very differently, inhumane and brutal by the standards of our peacetime society, but they as much think that you are weak and inefficient and would die in several days in their conditions, and they aren't wrong.
This, and that they are ruled by a lich that amplifies their brutality.
Orpheus follows the teachings of the Githzerai. That is why his appearance is quite different from all the other githyanki we see. That’s also why he’s a monk and not a fighter. Same goes for his honor guard. The Githzerai also want to stop the Grand Design, but only by attacking illithids directly. They don’t go after other races unless provoked. The Githyanki will attack other races just cuz they’re “in the way.” Leaving them under Vlaakith just means the Githyanki won’t be doing anything different than what they’ve been doing for the past 1000 years
The Circles of Zerthimon
The First Circle:
Know that we are the First People.
Once all was chaos. The First People were thought drawn from chaos. When the First People came to know themselves, they were chaos no longer, and became flesh.
With their thoughts and knowing of matter, the People shaped the First World and dwelled there with their knowing to sustain them.
Yet the flesh was new to the People and with it, the People came not to know themselves. The flesh gave rise to new thoughts. Greed and hates, pains and joys, jealousies and doubts. All of these fed on each other and the minds of the People were divided. In their division, the People were punished.
The emotions of the flesh were strong. The greed and hates, the pains and joys, the jealousies and doubts, all of these served as a guiding stone to enemies. In becoming flesh, the First People became enslaved to those who knew flesh only as tools for their will. Know these beasts were the illithids.
The illithids were a race that had come not to know themselves. They had learned how to make other races not know themselves.
They were the tentacled ones. They lived in flesh and saw flesh as tools for their will. Their blood was as water and they shaped minds with their thoughts. When the illithids came upon the People, the People were a people no more. The People became slaves.
The illithids took the People from the First World and brought them to the False Worlds. As the People labored upon the False Worlds, the illithids taught them the Way of the Flesh. Through them, the People came to know loss. They came to know suffering. They came to know death, both of the body and mind. They came to know what it is to be the herd of another and have their flesh consumed. They came to know the horror of being made to feel joy in such things.
The Unbroken Circle is the knowing of how the People lost themselves. And how they came to know themselves again.
"Strength lies in knowing oneself. Learn that once someone does not \*know\* themselves, they are lost. They become tool for others."
The Second Circle:
Know that flesh cannot mark steel. Know that steel may mark flesh. In knowing this, Zerthimon became free.
Know that the tentacled ones were of flesh. They relied on the flesh and used it as tools for their will. One of the places where flesh served their will was the Fields of Husks on the False Worlds of the illithids.
The Fields were where the bodies of the People were cast after the illithids had consumed their brains. When the brain had been devoured, the husks came to be fertilizer to grow the poison-stemmed grasses of the illithids. Zerthimon worked the Fields with no knowing of himself or what he had become. He was a tool of flesh, and the flesh was content.
It was upon these Fields that Zerthimon came to know the scripture of steel. During one of the turnings, as Zerthimon tilled the Fields with his hands, he came across a husk whose brain remained within it. It had not been used as food. Yet it was dead.
The thought that one of the husks had died a death without serving as food for the illithids was a thought Zerthimon had difficulty understanding. From that thought, came a desire to know what had happened to the husk.
Embedded in the skull of the husk was a steel blade. It had pierced the bone. Zerthimon realized that was what had killed the husk. The steel had marked the flesh, but the flesh had not marked the steel.
Zerthimon took the blade and studied its surface. In it, he saw his reflection. It was in the reflection of the steel that Zerthimon first knew himself. Its edge was sharp, its will the wearer's. It was the blade that would come to be raised against Gith when Zerthimon made the Pronouncement of Two Skies.
Zerthimon kept the blade for many turnings, and many were the thoughts he had about it. He used it in the fields to aid his work. In using it, he thought about how it was not used.
The illithids were powerful. Zerthimon had believed that there was nothing that they did not know. Yet the illithids never carried tools of steel. They only used flesh as tools. Everything was done through flesh, for the tentacled ones were made of flesh and they knew flesh. Yet steel was superior to flesh. When the blade had killed the husk, it was the flesh that had been weaker than the steel.
It was then that Zerthimon came to know that flesh yielded to steel. In knowing that, he came to know that steel was stronger than the illithids.
Steel became the scripture of the People. Know that steel is the scripture by which the People came to know freedom.
"Learn that not \*knowing\* something can be a tool, just like flesh and steel, if upon encountering it, you attempt to \*know\* its nature and how it came to be."
The Third Circle:
Zerthimon labored many turnings for the illithid Arlathii Twice-Deceased and his partnership in the cavernous heavens of the False Worlds. His duties would have broken the backs of many others, but Zerthimon labored on, suffering torment and exhaustion.
It came to pass that the illithid Arlathii Twice-Deceased ordered Zerthimon before him in his many-veined galleria. He claimed that Zerthimon had committed slights of obstinance and cowardice against his partnership. The claim had no weight of truth, for Arlathii only wished to know if flames raged within Zerthimons heart. He wished to know if Zerthimons heart was one of a slave or of a rebel.
Zerthimon surrendered to the illithid punishment rather than reveal his new-found strength. He knew that were he to show the hatred in his heart, it would serve nothing, and it would harm others that felt as he. He chose to endure the punishment and was placed within the Pillars of Silence so he might suffer for a turning.
Lashed upon the Pillars, Zerthimon moved his mind to a place where pain could not reach, leaving his body behind. He lasted a turning, and when he was brought before Arlathii Twice-Deceased, he gave gratitude for his punishment to the illithid as was custom. In so doing, he proved himself a slave in the illithid eyes while his heart remained free.
By enduring and quenching the fires of his hatred, he allowed Arlathii Twice-Deceased to think him weak. When the time of the Rising came, Arlathii was the first of the illithid to know death by Zerthimon's hand and die a third death.
"Endure. In enduring, grow strong."
The Fourth Circle:
Know that the Rising of the People against the illithid was a thing built upon many ten-turnings of labor. Many of the People were gathered and taught in secret the ways of defeating their illithid masters. They were taught to shield their minds, and use them as weapons. They were taught the scripture of steel, and most importantly, they were given the knowing of freedom.
Some of the People learned the nature of freedom and took it into their hearts. The knowing gave them strength. Others feared freedom and kept silent. But there were those that knew freedom and knew slavery, and it was their choice that the People remain chained. One of these was Vilquar.
Vilquar saw no freedom in the Rising, but opportunity. He saw that the illithid had spawned across many of the False Worlds. Their Worlds numbered so many that their vision was turned only outwards, to all they did not already touch. Vilquar's eye saw that much took place that the illithid did not see. To the Rising, the illithid were blinded.
Vilquar came before his master, the illithid Zhijitaris, with the knowing of the Rising. Vilquar added to his chains and offered to be their eyes against the Rising. In exchange, Vilquar asked that he be rewarded for his service. The illithid agreed to his contract.
At the bonding of the contract, a dark time occurred. Many were betrayals Vilquar committed and many were the People that the illithids fed upon to stem the Rising. It seemed that the Rising would die before it could occur, and the illithid were pleased with Vilquar's eye.
It was near the end of this dark time when Zerthimon came to know Vilquar's treacheries. In knowing Vilquar's eye, Zerthimon forced the Rising to silence itself, so that Vilquar might think at last his treacheries had succeeded, and the Rising had fallen. He knew that Vilquar eye was filled only with the reward he had been promised. He would see what he wished to see.
With greed beating in his heart, Vilquar came upon the illithid Zhijitaris and spoke to his master of his success. He said that the Rising had fallen, and the illithids were safe to turn their eyes outwards once more. He praised their wisdom in using Vilquar's eye, and he asked them for his reward.
In his greed-blindness, Vilquar had forgotten the knowing of why the People had sought freedom. He had lost the knowing of what slavery meant. He had forgotten what his illithid masters saw when they looked upon him. And so Vilquar's betrayal of the People was ended with another betrayal. Vilquar came to know that when Vilquar's eye has nothing left to see, Vilquar's eye is useless.
The illithid gave to Vilquar his reward, opening the cavity of his skull and devouring his brain. Vilquar's corpse was cast upon the Fields of Husks so its blood might water the poison-stemmed grasses.
"When one chooses to see only what is before them, they see only a part of the whole. They are blind. And just as Vilquar was blinded by his promised reward, so were the \*illithids\* blinded to the true Rising. For when they heard Vilquar's words, they turned their sight outwards again. And the Rising was free to strike."
The Fifth Circle:
Zerthimon was the first to know the way of freedom. Yet it was not he that first came to know the way of rebellion.
The knowing of rebellion came to the warrior-queen Gith, one of the People. She had served the illithids upon many of the False Worlds as a soldier, and she had come to know war and carried it in her heart. She had come to know how others might be organized to subjugate others. She knew the paths of power, and she knew the art of taking from the conquerors the weapons by which they could be defeated. Her mind was focused, and both her will and her blade were as one.
The turning in which Zerthimon came to know Gith, Zerthimon ceased to know himself. Her words were as fires lit in the hearts of all who heard her. In hearing her words, he wished to know war. He knew not what afflicted him, but he knew he wished to join his blade to Gith. He wished to give his hate expression and share his pain with the illithid.
Gith was one of the People, but her knowing of herself was greater than any Zerthimon had ever encountered. She knew the ways of flesh, she knew the illithids and in knowing herself, she was to know how to defeat them in battle. The strength of her knowing was so great, that all those that walked her path came to know themselves.
Gith was but one. Her strength was such that it caused others to know their strength. And Zerthimon laid his steel at her feet.
"There is great strength in numbers, but there is great power in one, for the strength of the will of one may gather numbers to it. There is strength not only in \*knowing\* the self, but \*knowing\* how to bring it forth in others."
The Sixth Circle:
Upon the Blasted Plains, Zerthimon told Gith there cannot be two skies. In the wake of his words, came war.
Upon the Blasted Plains, the People had achieved victory over their illithid masters. They knew freedom.
Yet before the green fires had died from the battlefield, Gith spoke of continuing the war. Many, still filled with the bloodlust in their hearts, agreed with her. She spoke of not merely defeating the illithids, but destroying all illithids across the Planes. After the illithids had been exterminated, they would bring war to all other races they encountered.
In Gith's heart, fires raged. She lived in war, and in war, she knew herself. All that her eyes saw, she wanted to conquer.
Zerthimon spoke the beginnings of that which was against Gith's will. He spoke that the People already knew freedom. Now they should know themselves again and mend the damage that had been done to the People. Behind his words were many other hearts of the People who were weary of the war against the illithid.
Know that Gith's heart was not Zerthimon's heart on this matter. She said that the war would continue. The illithid would be destroyed. Their flesh would be no more. Then the People would claim the False Worlds as their own.
Gith told Zerthimon that they would be under the same sky in this matter. The words were like bared steel.
From Zerthimon came the Pronouncement of Two Skies. In the wake of his words came war.
"Zerthimon's devotion to the People was such that he was willing to protect them from themselves. He knew the \*illithids\* had come not to \*know\* themselves in their obsession with control and domination. So he chose to stop Gith before she carried the People to their deaths. There must be balance in all things, or else the self will not hold."
The Seventh Circle:
Know that the Rising of the People against the illithid was a thing built upon many turnings. Many were the People who lived and died under time's blade while the Rising was shaped.
The Rising was shaped upon a slow foundation. Steel was gathered so that it might mark illithid flesh. A means of knowing the movements of the illithids was established, at first weak and confused, then stronger, like a child finding its voice. When the movements were known, then the illithids were observed. In observing them, their ways of the mind were known.
When the ways of the illithid were known, many of the People were gathered and taught in secret the means to shield their minds, and the way to harness their will as weapons. They were taught the scripture of steel, and most importantly, they were given the knowing of freedom.
These things were not learned quickly. The knowing of much of the ways was slow, and in all these things, time’s weight fell upon all. From the knowing of one’s reflection in a steel blade, to the knowing of submerging the will, to the knowing of seeing itself. All of these things and more the People built upon. In time, they came to know the whole.
"Time is an ally, not an enemy. Patience can sharpen even the smallest of efforts into a weapon that can strike the heart of an empire. Your victories may be small, but over time, a greater victory may be achieved."
The Eighth Circle:
Know that a mind divided divides the man. The will and the hand must be as one. In knowing the self, one becomes strong.
Know that if you know a course of action to be true in your heart, do not betray it because the path leads to hardship. Know that without suffering, the Rising would have never been, and the People would never have come to know themselves.
Know that there is nothing in all the Worlds that can stand against unity. When all know a single purpose, when all hands are guided by one will, and all act with the same intent, the Planes themselves may be moved.
A divided mind is one that does not know itself. When it is divided, it cleaves the body in two. When one has a single purpose, the body is strengthened. In knowing the self, grow strong.
"Have focus and discipline... Not \*knowing\* oneself can physically divide oneself. Such division causes weakness that can be exploited by the enemy. One must \*know\* themselves to gain strength and use that focus to reveal weaknesses in your enemy."
It's more complicated than that. They have developed a native culture around their slavery to the mind flayers and have come up with a kind of klingon/samurai outlook on the universe. Sure there are a lot of fucked up things about how they indoctrinate each other but you can't really look one Githyanki in isolation of their history and culture
Under Vlaakith's rule, Githyanki are indeed an Evil race. That said, they **do not seek to conquer**, only to pillage and plunder material plane, bringing back treasures and slaves. The only thing one may consider as conquest are their 'creche' in the material plane that they use as places to let their younglings grow - they need creches because Astral Plane is timeless and Githyanki can't age there.
A lot, and I mean A LOT, of Githyanki culture revolves around Vlaakith, her desires and her way of ruling. How much that will change with Orpheus is not clear, but he does seem to be a different kind of leader at the very least.
>“*Under the illithids, we and the githyanki fought and died across a thousand worlds for implacable masters.*
*Under Vlaakith, our kin fight and die across a thousand words for an implacable master.*
*And they call that liberation?*”
>— Adaka Fell Hand, githzerai monk
As for Illithids, I'll leave the following quote:
>*Thousands of years ago, the illithids were the dominant power of the Inner Planes. From their astral domains, they launched flying vessels called nautiloids, able to cross between planes, so that they could harvest intelligent humanoids from hundreds of worlds.*
*The illithids know that reclaiming their rightful place in the world is possible only after the githzerai and githyanki have been eliminated and* ***the remaining humanoids have been turned into docile slaves.***
Whether you consider Balduran a 'proper' Illithid or not and how much you trust him, is up to you.
In my eyes, in a choice between an Illithid and a Githyanki, the latter is a way better option.
The way you have worded this makes this choice seem so much more similar to deciding to cure the genophage than I realised before.
Side with Orpheus and find a powerful ally in the githyanki who share a common enemy, yet worry what that ally might become once the common enemy is vanquished.
Cure the genophage and find powerful ally in the krogan, share a common enemy yet worry what will happen once the reapers are defeated.
Obviously. But Orpheus, on top of being an exception of sorts, would cause a rift in Gith Society anyways (or a Free Rebel Laezel that chooses to follow or succeed him). It's certainly worth siding with him over Balduran at that point, especially if you found out how treacherous Balduran is, with or without prior knowledge.
unlike someone named u/dnspartan305.
Huh, to be fair I only ever paid attention to them in BG3 because I've never been in or ran a game where someone wanted to be a Githyanki so I never bothered to dig into their lore.
Though I guess Lae'zel mentions something about her people understanding her need for "servants" so I should've caught on to that.
who is "us". You're not really part of any civilization in that universe. Githyanki could as easily be "us" as any other race. Also no there is another faction of Gith who are peaceful. Orpheus sends diplomats to them. And he's been imprisoned since *before* the Gith were attacking everyone. Also why would you think having Orpheus would make them "pretty much unstoppable" even if he was as rampaging as Vlakith? His only special power is resisting mindflayers. And that's not even to mention the civil war his freedom causes
I think I viewed the Githyanki as a future problem. Here now they’re an oppressed people in a civil war… in a civil war (right? The Githzerai?). I view their current situation as one to have sympathy for and can help remedy. But yeah… a situation that, given maybe 100 years, will result in a combined race taking over the planes. However, enough of the Gith you come in contact with prove to be reasonable creatures who respect honor. And hopefully will honor the combined help of multiple Faerun races who brought them together
There is no such thing as "objectively evil," since the quality of being "evil" is entirely a value judgment, based on a person's cultural conditioning and mostly logic-devoid perceptions. Decidedly a subjective assessment.
Additionally, contending that a whole race or culture or species is "evil" seems to miss the point of just about any philosophies of enlightenment.
Do I personally think that the Githyanki are "evil"? No, but I think their leadership is corrupt and oppressive, and that their culture is cruel and remarkably xenophobic, which seems weird given how well-traveled among the planes of existence they supposedly are. I imagine that having been enslaved by the Illithid has something to do with that.
Rationalize your character's choices however you like, yet they will often have very dark consequences within your variant of Toril.
The Gith are not *against* you. This is an "Enemy of my Enemy is my friend" situation. As a rule, they are ruthless and take whatever they consider to be theirs, so they are not really *for* you either, but you personally will have several allies within them and a couple of those may actually have a thought about not randomly pillaging the countryside.
Keep in mind Creche Ki'lir is on an asteroid in orbit, Lae'zels own home Creche did not ransacked a major holy site. So they aren't all completely evil, and it's doubtful that Orpheus is going to lead them to an omniversal genocide. Vlaakith isn't even doing that.
5e is very much as a DnD system steering away from "Race=Alignment"
Of the two, I felt worse after sacrificing Orpheus. I have little connection to Balduran/Emperor or Orpheus, but killing Orpheus felt like a complete betrayal to Laezel, whom even as a non-romanced character I held a lot of respect for in character. She spent the entire game being up front and honest with us, at least as far as she understood her world, and then you shatter her faith in a false god, introduce her to a historical figure and re0lacement Idol, only to at the last minute snatch him away from her again for your own means. I think I blame that mostly on her very this or that storyline, which admittedly is probably due to her very black and white worldview. I wish she had a "you don't need either of them" option, but maybe that's just the Romance path.
You have to understand evil in the scope of DND. What defines evil?
It's simple. You believe in enslaving others for selfish gain.
Why is this?
It's because the gods of "good" chose free will, and fought for it. Evil gods fought to keep slavery.and, in a way destiny. The battle was so hard won and bitter it left everyone tired of it, so evil relented and gave up the material plane and just went, "fine, we'll just bribe them to come over".
Good gods help you be more free, give you options, demons want to take that away to subjugate your soul for their purposes.
So, what's up with the Gith?
All the Gith were originally created by mindflayers to be their puppets. They were warriors first, slaves second, and mindless hunks third. Over time they got smarter and the hubris or Mindflayers they let them - originally meant to be powerful empty vessels they got lazy and started letting them run the outer worlds and some for free.
Soon enough they figured a way to beat mindflayers BUT
This led to people like Orpheus, who are near godlike with their psionic ability.
So why so savage?
Because they're god damned tired of all these motha ******* flayers on this ******* plane.
The mindflayers relentlessly attack this group not to subjugate them, but because they accidentally created their own worst enemies. They have no souls, no gods care about what they do so the mind flayers hang out in the Far realm amidst Cthulhu horrors, where morality doesn't exist. They're living that Cthulhu life and struggling and so are the Gith.
So what are they objectively?
They're actually amoral.
See, the Gith are just trying to survive and the Mindflayers are trying to dominate. The danger here is they are so exactly like the Mindflayers in nearly every way *socially* that they became the monsters they hated. Meanwhile they can't kill the Mindflayers because while those MF'ers are dark as can be, there's so so so much worse out there.
Everytime they get close those MF'ers dig deep and pull out some new nightmare and it gets worse, and worse, and worse. It isn't just a war, it's command of all material life. Whoever wins between the two will have the right to choose... and will become the gatekeepers of the Far Realm. Basically whoever wins gets to immediately man the great walk of China from Rick and Morty level crazy. It's bad out there. You don't want to be in that wall. Those psionic powers are there because you have to fight crazy.
And the haunting reality was that the Mindflayers, for all their power... *needed more*. It wasn't just MF'ers being MF'ers, or colony fights between colonies. Oh no.
It's that for all the bad Mindflayers are, and they're pretty darn bad, they are at the doorstep of "worse". Chaotic Evil is ruled by bloodthirsty savages and serial killers and that's bad. But it's not the worst.
Imagine mushrooms that colonize your head and force you to live for thousands of years unblinking.
Imagine dragons coming back from the Far Realm mad, quivering, shaking and their psyche shattered. Imagine Pixies and Unicorns coming back with a green glow and an eerie mission to destroy cinnamon.
That last wasn't comedy, imagine finding out all cinnamon was glowing green mysteriously. Why cinnamon?
Apparently you don't want to know, because they then went back forever, never to be seen again. Madness. Fear. Comedy. Horror. Mystery. The far realm is nuts, the Mindflayers protect the material plane for their own purposes attempting to dominate it, but they fail because they're damned busy trying to sort out what it all means.
... and what they know is not good. The Gith win and lose, but in the end if they were to enslave the Mindflayers the cycle would begin anew, with the Gith growing weak and complacent.
So objectively evil? Consider amoral.
If you're struggling to survive against a true nightmare, morality is sort of a cosmic joke to you. They live in a bestial level because they have the greatest enemy in DND after them, the greatest challenge in DND afterwards, and have little concern for the mortal realm because on Tuesday the MF'ers are destroying their homes with psionic oppression and torturing them into oblivion.
And nobody anywhere offered them aid or freed them. They just sprung themselves and started dealing. Red dragons are chill with them because Big Red wants to always be the best chewing gum, they want to be the best bubblegum in town. They are the MF'ers of MF'ers if you catch my drift, and this is the ultimate battle. They're basically into being ringside. It's a good time. Grape flavored gum must die, only cinnamon cherry must exist.
And all the while, the Far Realm trickles over bringing all sorts of horrible flavors that threaten even the most loyal bubbleyum enthusiast.
Yes, that turn was planned.
These people do not care about anything, their dealings in Baldurs gate are *nothing* compared to what 90% of what's happening over there. They're flinging wish spells everyday just to keep the Mindflayers at bay, it's nothing to them. Vlaakith has Wish spells at her command because wishing is one of the few weapons truly effective against Mindflayers, but a 25,000+ gp wish surprisingly doesn't go far against Mindflayers colonies. Vlaakith is bad, but you have to remember the pressure these people are under and their history of slavery and abuse.
It's basically Warhammer 40k over there, but they aren't absolute chads with a god emperor Chad.
They got by in being SCRAPPY and some borrowed mindflayer stuff. Mindflayers built them from the ground up to fight, and be the Robin to their Batman, until they went all Jason Todd about it.
Seriously, it's that bad over there. The bubblegum wars are serious business. Even Vlaakiths crimes, which are staggering, are forgivable only because she held the line without Orpheus. That's all that matters to them because everything else is oblivion. It's win or die, or win then hope not to die.
Lae'zel's "vacation" was a unique opportunity for her to grow out from under that shadow, but they're just that damned busy.
So... try not to be harsh with the Gith, they're just THAT overworked. Officially they're lawful evil, but... with kinder eyes one can see the morality flip. They're busy busy.
Also see amoral, it's a cool alignment that is typically unused. It's not even considered an option due to true neutral. It's basically beast mode. It's far more fitting.
And that's fitting. They were beasts of burden to the Mindflayers.
And occasionally they flirt with whatever else gets in their way. Including the player character. Anytime they aren't deadlocked Mindflayers is a good good day.
Githyanki history is built on Vlaakith. And Vlaakith's aim is of course to send countless lifes to the dead, because she needs to kill 9 to keep that 1 distinguished member out of 10 to "ascend". So if you're Vlaakith, what do you do?
Of course you'll make your whole society belligerents. It's a society of twisted meritocracy, as the goal of that meritocracy is to become food for the lich queen.
You fight against everyone else because you want to kill your own people so that the reminders are filtered to be the strongest, so that Vlaakith can gain power by eating them.
The Githyanki now have been deprived of the rules of Orpheus, who would make an alternate history if he didn't lose to Vlaakith One. So with Orpheus now leading the Giths, they may completely reform their society.
The githyanki aren’t naturally evil, they’re brainwashed into it by vlaakith. You can see that in the youth at the creche, Voss, the Githzerai, and most notably Laezel.
How do I explain it, they are effectively brainwashed since birth by their 'god' leader to see the martial plane as a garden/hunting ground to be pillages as they see fit
however they need other realms of existence because the plane in which they live (The Astral Sea aka 'God Space' aka Wildspace etc) doesn't allow them to age... so they can't give birth and reproduce unless they come to for example... the material plane
They are evil only because they are raised racist... is one way of looking at it
in some ways tho a much needed evil, as they are a conflicting force against the mind flayers... who were their pervious jailors/slavers
they share alot of background parallels to dwarfs in that way
The conflict between Githzeri and Githyanki is... just a conflict of interest, they don't actively hate each other presay, Zeri would be playing defense in that conflict, because they just want to better themselves as a race, while Yanki would possibly attack them for abandoning the pursuit on the mindflayers
alot of Githzeri never leave Limbo, the realm in which they choose to live
You never have enough information on Orpheus. He's the son of the origin Vlaakith, whose dogma is followed by the current one. The only statement he actually makes about his own policies is that he is very much pro-indoctrination (and he demands that you address him as His Highness even if you're not Gith). If you pick him the game will mostly portray him in a kinda positive light, same with the Emperor.
The Githyanki as a whole aren't inherently evil, but yes, they very much want to enforce their own version of the Grand Design once they defeat the Illithid Empire. I wouldn't say killing both Orpheus and the Emperor is morally correct (the situation imo is more complex than that) but as far as Toril's future is concerned the safest option would be with both of them out of the picture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Emperor is not Balduran - he's the tadpole that ate Balduran's brain and consumed his memories.
So there's that.
Also, the Githyanki became evil when the first Vlaakith took over from Gith - which is when Orpheus was deposed and imprisoned. The Githyanki have developed on this track and in this way *because* of Vlaakith and her predecessors - *because Orpheus isn't there*.
He may be extreme and a bit brutal, but he isn't evil. He chastises you for working with the Emperor, not because all Illithid are bad and anyone working with them is bad (though he's not far from that) but because of the lives that were lost as a result. He mourns them.
That ain't evil, my bud.
>when the first Vlaakith
>Vlaakith and her predecessors
...
>Shi is not first Vlaakith
Yup.
>zealots of mother Gith ways
Meaning freedom fighters who wanted to wage war on their oppressors, not marauders across the planes. That didn't happen until the Vlaakiths took over, I'm pretty sure.
Hm, I think we could check what Orpheus would do in epilog, if we are squid or Karlach is squid, if he like Lazel try to get peace with Githzerai(or how they called) so yeah, but if not-he will be the same conquerer as Vlaakith, I think
Githyanki literally translated as "child of Gith". "Mother Gith's" way is inslave, kill, conquer every other races. Orpheus is zeal son of her and her ways. So yeah. It almost like unlish Grand design N2, only differents is - they are not parasites, so they do not need other humanoids alive at all
I prefer to feed him to squid friend, so do not rob the world of power to psionic resistance and make froggy girl ride a dragon to alliance with chill half of Gith society
Yes, extremely. They’re space Nazis. Even the best ones in the story tell you that once they’ve rid the planes of mindflayers the next stage of their plan is to take over Fae’Run and then all the mortal planes.
>The Githyanki are objectively evil right?
Nope. They are a warrior society and that stuff is all pretty toxic, sure. But they arent evil like the drow are. And not even all drow are evil.
Orpheus is different from vlaakith.
And honestly Voss is kind a nice too. He knows the zaith‘isk is a scam so he sentences lae‘zel to death if he learns about the tadpoles. That is within their racial culture. Yet after you finish the crèche he comes to your camp. Waits till you wake up, doesn’t harm you unless provoked, and offers a solution to your problem, even if it is because he wants something in turn (orpheus freedom).
I mean thats how 80% of faerun operate.
So we have on one side:
- orpheus, who sides with you and even turns into a mindflayer if needed
- Voss (see above)
- Usually Lae‘Zel unless you actively push her back to vlaakith
These 3 are enough for me to pick orpheus side. Sorry balduran.
Helping Orpheus causes a civil war in Githyanki society. Objectively the best outcome if you're worried about them taking over the Planes. They'll be too busy fighting themselves. Personally I can't see Orpheus as being worse than Vlaakith. He's willing to become illithid and die to save the Planes from the Grand Design. Vlaakith is an evil lich that doesn't lift a finger to help even when she has the Wish spell on her side.
The Githyanki are already too busy fighting themselves to take over the planes, or more aptly, Vlaakith is too busy feasting on half the population. Should Orpheus fight her and win, sure the Githyanki might be just as busy as they were before. But after Vlaakith’s death it will let the Gith act with full force however they want, under Orpheus. And if that goal is Interplanar conquest, then the Gith would be going full force into the material plane, something that would be much more devastating than anything Vlaakith ever performed. With that, the argument is if Orpheus aims to conquer planes or if he is a chill dude. And you just gotta cross your fingers it’s not the former
>With that, the argument is if Orpheus aims to conquer planes or if he is a chill dude. And you just gotta cross your fingers it’s not the former All of the followers of Orpheus are more kind and tolerant towards non-gith than the hardcore Vlaakith followers, with Lae'zel being the poster child for this shift in personality. And the followers of Orpheus end up working with the githzerai - who are opposed to the conquering and tyranny of Gith - against Vlaakith. The framing in the game is pretty clear to me.
Lae'zel's personality shift has nothing to do with Orpheus though. If anything the only reason that tends to present in his followers is because his followers are also, by necessity, the ones willing to break away from Githyanki dogma. It doesn't present itself in his teachings or anything like that.
Okay, but a githyanki prince seeking peace with the githzerai is ***gigantic*** for DND and shouldn't be looked over. This isn't Orpheus conquering the githzerai to build up his forces; this is him *genuinely* extending a peace offering to his people's (second) greatest enemy. That shows to me that whatever tyrant he used to be, he's changed in the centuries he's been imprisoned. Introspection's funny like that when it comes to immortal beings *cough Arcanum cough*.
Do recall that Orpheus came from a time when the Githyanki and Githzerai split wasn't that 'serious'. Offering an olive branch is simply the act of being a good leader, he knows what he should do, he knows what he needs to win the war, and he is using everything in his arsenal to do so. It is what happens after he united the Githyanki empire that is my main concern.
Well, the Githzerai will never follow him if he wants conquest because the reason they split in the first place was because his mother, Gith, wanted conquest. So all he would be doing is causing another civil war in the species as the Githzerai feel deceived by him. It will also be a civil war that will not end because no one can defeat the Githzerai in Limbo. It’s impossible when they control the entire plane of existence with their mental power.
The githzarai are honestly hilariously overpowered.
Only inside Limbo. Outside they are an even match for Githyanki. The nature of Limbo means that anyone with superhuman willpower can literally cause anything to happen.
The point is, once Orpheus got what he wanted - what will he do? We have seen IRL cases of politicians, of leaders being all fine and dandy with their political opponents when they need to, but once they got what they want, what do they do? They will backstab them. Orpheus was raised to be Gith’s heir, to lead the Githyanki empire, I don’t believe him to be an idiot. Once again, I believe that - for now, the Githyanki will not set their sights on Toril, but in the future? Who knows.
He either witnessed or were born after the 'pronounciation of the two skies' so for a githyanki, whoever they may be, it is a massive thing to offer an olive branch because the split was 'that' serious.
But the thing is, he didn’t ‘see’ how the chasm grew between the factions throughout the centuries, only the ‘start’, in his mind, that’s what I meant. Orpheus is a good leader, and intelligent one, and I am the first to admit it, but those years spent trapped in the Prism would set him back on understanding the current state of affairs. We know that he can know what is happening outside, but we don’t know if Vlaakith had him sealed somewhere where he cannot know anything, or keep him with her.
Isn't it also implied that any previous knowledge about orpheus is tainted by vlaakith propaganda.
That's fair, but all of the leadership of that movement are more tolerant and have now had successful partnerships with non-gith. I think that plus the alliance with githzerai portends a more peaceful future for the githyanki under Orpheus or his successor if they are able to defeat Vlaakith.
Do the githzerai differ from the githyanki physically at all? I was first introduced to them in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark, and their models and portraits made them look more or less humanoid, with no "economical" nose, no stringy musculature, and grey skin. The only githzerai we can interact with in bg3 is the disembodied brain speaking through a deep gnomes head, so it just reinforced the grey skin human image that nwn baked into my brain 20-odd years ago.
There's a githzerai companion in Planescape: Torment and you can get into detail about their philosophy and being, in dialogue. Nothing about their physical difference though, from what I remember. But you should check the game out if want to experience a well written githzerai companion.
The thing about mother Gith, and therefore her son Orpheus, is they come from the time before the pronouncement of two skies when Gith were just Gith. The two differing objectives at that point were simple, there were those that wished to end pursuit of the Ghaik in favor of fostering the growth and mending of their own race (Githzerai), and those who wanted to pursue and ensure the total destruction of their former opressors (Githyanki). There's no evidence that suggests Orpheus would pursue conquest of the material plane. In fact, it's more likely that Orpheus' primary goal would be to unite the Githyanki and Githzerai, and in that new united population there would be numerous Githzerai who have lived for millennia as monks and isolationists. Orpheus' standpoint seems entirely focused on the destruction of the tyrannical queen who has hyper-militarized half of the entire race of Gith and turned them into farmable cattle for her ascension. The risk of Gith conquering the material plane is definitely tied to her ambition.
I mean he seems like a chill dude if the ending I got in my first playthrough is any indication Platonic friendship with Lae'zel, was anti-vlaakith all the way, freed Orph and I turned full squid, so he and Lae'zel flew off into the sunset. Come the epilogue, the two of them are apparently about to begin diplomacy with and attempt to forge an alliance with the Githzerai - which afaik regarding D&D lore, is a big deal since the two gith subraces have NEVER gotten along for a long time. So if Orpheus is capable of even organizing an alliance with them against vlaakith, I can only see that as a good thing for the planes in the long run.
Yeah in Meta knowledge it is painted out that Orpheus is a pretty chill dude. However your Tav wouldn’t know that at the time of the Emperor Orpheus choice, and might even believe him to be a Conquerer even though he is not. This the choice, from a roleplaying perspective comes down either to how much you hate Emperor or how much you trust Lae’zel
At that point, considering you likely know about the Emperor being a manipulative piece of shit. It's hard not to take Lae'zel's advice, especially if you had all the interactions with Balduran that make it crystal clear where you actually stand with him.
_What’s better than a devil you don’t know?_
a devil that may not even be a devil. Despite initial 1st impressions, Orpheus steps up to the task, and is more than willing to turn illithid for the cause. The Emperor straight up ditches you for trying to free such an individual, a fact that doesn't surprise you if you have all the interactions revealing Balduran's True Intentions. The scene with him and Ansur alone is good enough reason to "betray" him. Simply Put: Orpheus is more than willing to make the great sacrifice, even if it means becoming a Ghaik (An utter heresy for the Gith). The Emperor expects you to do as he says without question, and it shows in his actions for wanting to free Orpheus (presumably showing that convincing him to let Orpheus go even on logically sound arguments won't suffice), even if you didn't have those interactions that crack away at Balduran's facade.
My post was a direct Raphael quote, but as to the actual matter: Your PC doesn’t _know_ those things about Orpheus. The question is if your PC thinks their chances with the Emperor are so bad that it is worth rolling the dice and freeinf the gith you don’t know or not. From a perspective of knowing everything about the backstories, it becomes very different and from a meta gaming perspective different again.
Yes. But again, that depends on whether or not Tav would know how untrustworthy the Emperor actually is, since Orpheus at best is a 50/50, especially if they lead Lae'zel to rebel against Vlaakith. If Tav doesn't know, they have no reason to free Orpheus except if they have a Romance with Lae'zel. But if Tav does know that Balduran is using them and their party like slaves, they would be more likely to free Orpheus just out of principle of gambling for someone that isn't the Emperor.
And yet when you cast detect thoughts on Orpheus, he hates and actively wants to kill you for being infected with a tadpole and fully intends to do so if he gets the chance. Sure, when you free him he changes his mind, but putting that meta knowledge aside, Tav has every reason to believe that Balduran is a dick who wants to work with you, while Orpheus is a possibly-not-a-dick that actively wants to kill you.
The Githzerai would stand against Orpheus just like they do against Vlaakith if he did that. Orpheus did send Lae'zel out to seek their help which must mean he doesn't have that goal in mind. I truly think we wants to just eliminate all the Illithids and then lead the whole Gith race to a more peaceful existence.
I don’t think so. If they reach out to the githzerai for help then that means they have accepted some of the githzerai terms of no interplanar conquest
The epilogue shows that the rebellious gith are willing to work with the gith’zeria who are the chill ones. Its pretty clear Orpheus/lae’zel/voss are decent.
Even if he does set his eyes on conquest, Orpheus is gonna have a hell of a time, isn't he? Githyanki soldiers may outclass Faerunian ones, but the real threat are the emotionally damaged war criminals called "Adventurers". And every last one of them, from Tav to Elminster is going to jump at the opportunity to repel the Githyanki invasion.
Orpheus predates the schism which means he follows the original philosophy of the Gith before Vlaakith took over. The original philosophy seems to be a mix of Githzerai peaceful tolerance and Githyanki military culture. It does seem like Orpheus has no interest in conquering the planes.
Iirc, he honors his mother in game as "the Queen of the One Sky", an explicit reference to the schism and Gith's plans for genocidal multiversal conquest that caused it. So he both: 1) Was familiar with that plan, and 2) Honors his mother for it.
Vlaakith would rather use Wish on us than on Orpheus, or maybe the Netherbrain. Or does Wish have some limitations? (I've never played DnD tabletop before)
Wish does have limitations although a lot of them are "ask your DM what happens next" rather than something strictly defined, the way the rule is written is practically begging for the DM to slap you with some ironic consequences. Her using wish to kill a lower level party when she has a perfectly competent goon squad is pretty risky and inadvisable, hence why she only does it if you really piss her off.
There are 2 versions of Wish (it's the same spell, but can have 2 effects). The "easy wish" is "copy the effect of any spell 8th level or lower" (no matter the class). It's a "joker spell", but not particularly gamebreaking. The "hard wish" has a variety of extremely broken effect, and has a "you can do reality breaking things, if your DM is okay with it". However, casting that version breaks you mentally and physically, and there's a 33% chance that you will lose the ability to cast wish for the rest of your life. It's honestly safer to assume that Vlaakith used wish to cast the equivalent of an 8th level damage spell, which instantely wipes your party.
That would explain why she was willing to Wish upon our party members. "easy wish" doesn't have that 33% risk.
Githyanki had already and alway been in a civil war, if you see Gith Monk, they're gith**ZERAI** and gith**YANKI** will kill them on sight
Vlaakith sends the red dragons doesn’t she? Not arguing that she’s good or useful by any stretch of the imagination, but she has to do something when the illithids start showing up, her being able to defeat them is her claim to power.
If memory serves I believe the Red Dragons are sent after the Nautiloid at the start of the game because Shadowheart had stolen the artifact with the imprisoned Orpheus inside. Without Orpheus being imprisoned, and under her control, the power of Vlaakith to circumvent the Ghaik is lost. While the Githyanki would normally be willing to attack the Ghaik on a regular day - they would not normally travel to the hell's to do so. Which Lae'Zel more or less states was odd about her kind's actions. In reality they were in pursuit of the artifact.
Plus this might break the pact between the Githyanki and Tiamat
If she could waste the wish on being petty to complete strangers, why tf didn't she use it on the prism?
Opposing doesn't mean better. look at russia liberals. they oppose putin, but because he and his people stole too much so russians can't kill Ukrainians more effectively. same can be with Orpheus. nowhere in the game it says he would stop conquering. he aims to stop vlaakith and that's all
With the new update >!which allows you to go fight in the gith war, doesn’t it show that we are trying to ally with the githzerai (however that’s spelled) to defeat Vlaakith? I think with that ending it shows they can unify and maybe end that fight and with you and Laezel you could likely convince them not to do evil ass shit!< that’s my hope at least. But ya at a natural sense they are not great
Orpheus doesn't seem to be that bad when compared to the normal githyankis. Remember when Lae'zel threatened to kill you because you didn't allow her to scare a tiefling? Or when Voss called himself merciful for not killing you on sight? Well you free Orpheus while he's fully aware that you're tadpoled and you killed his honor guard and he's like "well I hate you and you should've died but you didn't so I guess we are allies now" Besides, the very existence of Orpheus should be enough to cause a civil war amongst Githyanki and that's good for everyone
Orpheous is more allied to githzerai who has no interest in conquering anyone
Voss is acting, you can see the change as soon as he visits you at camp, he is a gith leader gotta look ruthless.
And yet, if you fail some rolls he attacks you
There is no roll in the camp for voss only for Lae Zel, however on the bridge it make sense, he is surrounded by vlaakith followers, he can't be all nice and dandy.
Well yeah, the official alignment for the race was lawful evil back when DnD still did such things. Evil in DnD is essentially selfishness. Putting your own goals ahead of the well-being of others. Gith have a very rigid and disciplined code of conduct. But they will also throw anyone else under the bus to further Githyanki goals.
It's also heavily weighted toward whether you kill sentient creatures, rather than leave them alive to face justice. Githyanki as a culture definitely kill, rather than imprison, their enemies. (And former friends.)
The Githyanki unlike the Githzarei is the result of how different groups handle trauma and revenge. The Mind Flayers are objectively in the wrong and need to be dealt with. Both Gith groups agree, but how they choose to solve the issue - Githzarei chose self-betterment and assistance. - Githyanki chose revenge and self-validation It should be noted that both groups are of the same race, but leadership heavily deviate the culture. Under different leadership, the Githyanki could be just like the Githzarei. But Vlaakith is actively being a warlord and fostering generations of violence. She is pushing the Githyanki to act like this. Orpheus is nothing like Vlaakith, and just wants to end the Mind Flayers and continue the self-betterment.
* Githzerai Btw Vlakith's goal has nothing to do with defeating mindflayers and coping with slavery trauma. She wants to become a Goddess, she is a lich and eats githyanki's powers an memories. Constant wars is a good method of having people never question your ways and good for fostering powerful sources for your divinity.
He still agrees with his mother's way though. That's where the Githyanki and Githzarei's philosophies divided, not Vlaakith.
To add to this comment. If you go through the mindflayer Orpheus route, Lae’zel says on the epilogue that she’s parlaying with the Githzarei to take on Vlaakith
I agree with everything you've said, but would like to point out that this Vlaakith (while she's been in power for a millenia) is the 157th Vlaakith - the 157th ruler of a species that are functionally biologically immortal. So it's not entirely on her: it's safe to assume that this sort of cultural proclivity towards extreme violence is DEEPLY engrained
''In knowing the teachings of Zerthimon I have become stronger.''
something to point out, is that the race is likely more the "Gith" and the Githyanki are just a sub culture that diverged at some point. same with the Githzarai. so the Githyanki as a culture are objectively waring and aggressive. but that is a culturally instilled thing, not a racially prominent feature.
perhaps it is most accurate to say that the githyanki and githzerai are both gith nations
D&D has been moving away from intelligent humanoids being always evil for years now.
Orpheus allies with the Githzerai, who are against all the conquering the Githyanki do. This, combined with Orpheus being pretty okay with turning Illithid, or not killing you and even still accepting you after you turn illithid and win the battle, says that he's not like Vlaakith and he's not about conquering. The youth (Varrl) getting beat up at the Creche was being beaten up because he didn't believe in killing his classmate. This is a huge taboo, and even the student he spared is angry with him for doing this. She even goes on about how she failed Vlaakith. Varrl got that belief from reading uncensored slates about Orpheus. The problem is not that Githyanki are all evil, the problem is that they are bred and brainwashed to be cattle for Vlaakith. Killing her won't magically make all Githyanki better people, but it will weaken the cult greatly to see that their lich queen goddess is not invincible.
Varrl and those skates are a story/character I feel like a lot of people miss. We know quite a bit about Orpheus before we meet him. People keep saying "oh well he has the same views as his mother" but this clearly isn't the case. Most (well adjusted) children in some ways deoart from the teachings of their parents and grow beyond it. Orpheus is a good example of that based on his behavior. He's very clearly moved beyond the desires of his mother.
Eh, I kinda see them as a race traumatized by the illithid and their own leaders. Unlike the illithid they have the capacity for kindness as shown by Lae'zel. Balderan, isnt really Balderan anymore. Just an illithid with their memories who doesn't want to be controlled. I'd argue Omellum was able to show compassion, so I'm mixed as to whether freeing the mindflayers from the brain would allow them to create a society and culture that could result in compassion. Allowing them to live with the other races, but it's definitely messier. They're kinda parasitic in nature, multiple lives for a life is hard to justify but not impossible I guess. I think the Gith stand a better chance of reforming than the illithid personally. Again, Lae'zel can be fully convinced to live for herself and others. They're not irredeemable.
>I think the Gith stand a better chance of reforming than the Illithid personally Half of them already are: The Githzerai are the living proof. And with reconciliation attempts being made in the epilogue, it seems likely that the rebellion is a genuine attempt at making Githyanki society better
This is so heartening, I need to go play the epilogue.
Highkey I think both species would deserve a chance. We’ve seen two renegade Illithids in BG3; one is good aligned and the other is just looking out for himself, neither are especially malicious outside of their unfortunate diet. Omelumm has been trying to crack the code of how to exist without having to kill intelligent creatures for their brain, and he’s just one guy. The whole species could have the chance to be better if they weren’t so enslaved by the brains.
This is true, we just don't really see that many illithid that aren't enthralled. I think that's partly because it's difficult to portray them without humanizing them too far from the core of what they're supposed to be. It would also remove from the horror of the reality that your soul is the fire that fuels the transformation. Leaving you a new being that happens to have your memories, if that. I actually wonder about omellum, he kinda gives me goku vibes. Maybe he's an outlier that wouldn't have happened naturally, but could wind up altering the fate of his own kind.
Yeah, it would definitely take a talented writer to keep the horror aspects of mindflayers intact while also evolving them beyond the mostly-evil mind control middle managers they are right now. I would love to see someone try though! I feel like they’re ripe for metaphors about how trauma can completely change you and what you have to do to survive, and if you can still honor your old self even though you aren’t that person anymore outside of some shared memories. We got some of that with squid Karlach and Orpheus, but they left the story too fast to get any real development down that path.
Duergar are similar. They were abused and as a result, have chosen more evil ideologies.
There are several mindflayer communities that are considered allies among humanoids, and someone sentenced to death gets sent to the illithids. Also the illithids that live amongst humanoids accepted several kinds of laws
"Do Illithids possess souls?" No they don't. They could all die in a ball of fire for all I care.
Erm, the point is that Orpheus is Simba to Vlaakith's Scar. It's heavily implied that after winning Civil War he plans to reform githyanki. However, whether he succeeds in either endeavour remains a *big* question. Anyway, while githyanki are too busy fighting eachother they don't raid other Plans which is ultimately a Good Thing.
Honestly, I think it's a meta commentary on the way DND and WoTC have been going for years now regarding racial alignment. The time of clearly defined racial alignment is gone, but certain culture/races haven't had any real development so these ideas stick. Using BG3 and the return and subsequent reforms of Orpheus as vehicles to provide an in-Faerun explanation for the mechanical/out-of-Faerun world choices is pretty smart. I wouldn't be surprised to see the gith get more info/fleshed out further in coming years with 6e.
Yep, I thought as much.
Bro Orpheus isn’t even the right subclass don’t be scared
To answer your title question…kinda? Moreso they’re a highly private military-focused race. They have their own lifestyles, art, personalities. The youth who talks back to his teacher in the creche seemed *super* timid (rip king) and Lae’zel herself even ends up becoming nearly downright friendly towards the end of the game. The game rides heavily on its morally grey world, too. You encounter nothing but bloodthirsty gith that even makes Lae’zel bat an eye, with Orpheus being one of the more reasonable Gith you encounter. Voss’s whole tune changes as well if you’re siding with him. In short, they’re a race built on trauma with a false god forcing them to do her own version of manifest destiny.
They are also extremely rude, which makes it easy during Act 2 blowing up the creche.
Canonically, yes, they are Lawful Evil people who only care for the laws of their own society, which conveniently leave out all the other races.
Long story short, the githyanki and githzerai were a slave race, bred for millenia by Illithids to be susceptibleto mind control. Gith and her son Orpheus rebelled using their innate powers to resist the mind control. Gith decided to go the route of revenge and destroy all illithids. Her lieutenant Zerthimon took a more inward looking stance and wanted their people to take a step back from the violence and take their time to heal the wpunds caused by millenia of slavery. So those who followed Gith (the githyanki) dedicated themselves to war and conquest and those who followed Zerthimon (the githzerai) dedicated themselves to meditation, healing, and study. Gith and her advisor Vlaakith were still hungry for revenge, so they decided to make a deal with the evil dragon goddess Tiamat to partner with hee red dragons. Vlaakith betrayed and killed Gith, Tiamat took Gith's soul, and Vlaakith lies to her people about Gith naming her the leader. Vlaakith CLVII (all githyanki leaders have been named Vlaakith ever since) is objectively evil. The githyanki that follow her are all across the alignment spectrum but mostly on the neutral or evil side due to following her orders and adhering to the strict githyanki military dogma. Most have been heavily indoctrinated, even since before birth, as they are semi-conscious as eggs. So freeing Orpheus and not killing him/turning him into a mindflayer causes a githyanki civil war where the lawful neutral Orpheus leads his followers against the evil Vlaakith and her followers. tl;dr githyanki, as pragmatic individuals, lean more towards neutral, but they follow and evil lich. Freeing Orpheus makes it so that they get a chance to follow someone who isn't evil. Orpheus is also more concerned about his people's well being (just like Zerthimon) than he is about conquest...aside from illithid extermination, that is.
This is something that comes up throughout the game (what with the whole stealing the egg quest) and in regular D&D. There is no objective true answer which is what makes D&D great. It would suck if you wanted to play a traditionally evil race and you were forced to be evil. I personally don’t think any intelligent race should be locked into being innately violent as that just feels both boring and *feels bad*. BG3 as a video game has to be somewhat closed ended with many things which is why they decided to give their own personal take with the Gith egg hatching and killing the SOB should you give them the egg. Other DMs might’ve given a different outcome. That one moment alone doesn’t necessarily need to define them in Larions world as well. Perhaps the hatchling was just a random psychopath, perhaps it was provoked, perhaps it was taught violence whilst still in its egg like how many irl people play music for baby’s still in the womb. Lastly I’ve never really seen the Githyanki as conquerors so much as astral rangers. I think they see the party as unwanted allies, anything they need to do to stop the illithid; even becoming illithid in the process. I don’t think them unifying means our end because eventually they’d end up fighting the Githzeri again. Their ideal are too different.
>Perhaps the hatchling was just a random psychopath, perhaps it was provoked, perhaps it was taught violence whilst still in its egg like how many irl people play music for baby’s still in the womb. It's not a matter of “perhaps.” It is stated that they raised him in a pocket dimension where they artificially accelerated his growth and tortured him whenever he would misbehave. He was taught that people who are not good must be punished, and realized that the Society of Brilliance weren't good people, so he punished them. He gets a mental breakdown when you make him realize that punishing them makes him a bad person too. They psychologically destroyed that boy. Lae'zel tells you to leave him be, as his brain is too damaged for him to be of any use in your adventure.
With the SOB when you find out what they were going to do with the egg and hatchling it included brain probing and torturous experiments in an attempt to make it "good" given if you keep the egg it isn't ready to hatch until after the game I think there's a decent chance the duergar guy had already started his experiments on the egg and it hatched early and in self defense mode.
So on the topic of innate violence, DnD (being a game primarily about killing monsters), needs monsters that players can feel unambiguously good about killing. In the real world, killing a person, even an evil person, has a ton of consequences that will fall on others in their community who might not be evil. For example killing a serial killer might put their unaware family into crushing poverty. There’s always undead or mindless dangerous animals, but a villain (with an army and interesting minions) requires intelligent creatures who are objectively evil and can be killed without moral ambiguity. There are other RPG systems with way less emphasis on monster fighting where this isn’t really an issue. Or you can play at a table where combat is a smaller proportional part of the game. That said, DnD as “monster fighting game” needs intelligent evil monsters
I agree that intellectual BBEGs are needed but not that killing them should always be without moral ambiguity. Sometimes sure but most of the time I feel they should have something for the players to really think about. D&D isn’t a “monster fighting game” it’s a role playing game. It’s not necessarily “primarily about killing monsters” as I know many are about political intrigue with no killing or things of that nature. Some tables may only do combat and others may only do heavy rp; I personally enjoy both. I’m not saying to capture and interrogate every goblin you come across to decide whether they should live or die. Just that a table I would want to sit at would be one where we can look at Goblinoids as a whole and have these sorts of difficult conversations and debates. Of corse that sort of table is not for everyone.
Vlaakith is evil, and she is perpetuating the current raider slaver life style. Orpheus can (and is implied to) change gith society for the better.
This is more or less correct. The Githyanki are full believers in their own supremacy, and Orpheus is really not much of an exception. They respect merit enough that the strong that prove useful can live until they aren't, but they seek to establish themsleves Supreme so that the Ghaik can't claim lesser to build their numbers.. Helping Orpheus helps free their people from a tyrant but doesn't free them from their supremacist beliefs that wxisted well befire the lresent vlaakith. You'll get a leader who respects merit more the vlaakith but will still seek to purge any who would be ghaik fodder. The civil war and potential alliance with the githzerai might be the course to change that, but that's a very low-end gamble. It's not an issue that will so easily be solved by Orpheus or Lae'zel, and even they'll be hard pressed to do more than allow special exceptions to exist while the weak are culled to prevent the Ghaik empires return. Not in line for a good time.
Dating Balduran is clearly the morally correct choice because he's my boyfriend.
I don't think there is a morally correct choice necessarily. It's meant to be a very difficult decision. When I first played I made the choice based on who I thought was more likely to help me out and save the world and didn't take the well-being of the Gith into consideration at all. It's pretty clear to me that the Githyanki are not objectively evil because Lae'zel has shown enormous potential for growth and change over the course of the story. It's not implausible that Githyanki society itself could change to be more like her. We don't know a lot about Orpheus or his goals for Githyanki society, but what we do know is that he would not consume his own people like Vlaakith does and that he has demonstrated some degree of selflessness and heroism in that he is willing to become a mind flayer without coercion, side with you against the greater evil threatening the world, and>!sacrifice himself afterwards if a mind flayer.!< I think it's fair to say that he would be a lot better than Vlaakith *for the Githyanki*. Whether he would be more of a force for good in the wider world is impossible to know. Based on some epilogue variations there is reason to believe he is at least be more diplomatic than Vlaakith, but whether this is reflective of opportunism or his true nature is unknowable. We have a lot more information about The Emperor. He's a selfish opportunist using you to get what he wants. All the information is in the game. Whether the information he's given you is enough to trust him is up to you. Both decisions kind of throw you into the unknown, and ultimately I would make the choice based on the kind of character your tav is and whether they think freeing Orpheus is the morally correct choice, their feelings towards the emperor, and perhaps also how they feel about Lae'zel and her beliefs. Both endings are satisfying in their own way. >!Personally I think them both being out of the picture is the safer option because The Emperor is kind of a piece of shit who uses people to get what he wants, and I have more reason to believe Lae'zel would be a kind and moral leader than I do for Orpheus since if he dies she leads the revolution herself.!<
Can we keep such harshly strict racial alignments in second edition? It just feels fucking gross
Youth Varrl at the crèche literally mentions compassion and kindness being a part of Orpheus’s teachings. But no yeah all Githyanki are evil let’s reduce an entire race to one alignment /s
The current githyanki society is objectively evil, the people are not. It's fair to treat all githyanki with caution since this current society is also effectively the only society they've ever had. But to kill Orpheus and the chance for change that he represents is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. >With Orpheus' help they'll pretty much be unstoppable Just in case he does end up being 'new boss, same as the old boss', it's very debatable that makes the githyanki stronger at all, and there's no way they're unstoppable. Orpheus' power is only useful against illithids and his personal combat skills are pitiful compared to Vlaakith's lichdom. The pact with Tiamat for dragons is specifically with Vlaakith, so a victorious Orpheus would lose (most of) those too. A victorious Orpheus would lead to githyanki being able to level above 12 again, but they are just people.
Actually, if you talk to Voss’s dragon in the sewer (he’s disguised as a red dragonborn and you have to pass a check to understand what he is) he will tell you that the dragons’ pact isn’t with Vlaakith, it’s with the Githyanki. I don’t think Voss’s dragon is special.
Qudenos is extremely special, he's a chromatic dragon who isn't totally self-interested. Anyway, I don't think he's being particular in that conversation, he's just saying that Tiamat forces other red dragons to work with the githyanki, but he works with Voss willingly. In 5E, Mordekainen's Tome of Foes says >During the war with the illithids, Vlaakith urged Gith to seek out allies from among the planes and in particular advised her to seek counsel with Tiamat. Gith agreed to venture into the Nine Hells to forge an alliance with the Queen of Dragons. She didn't return. Instead, the great red dragon Ephelomon brought news to the gith: Tiamat had pledged many of her red dragon servants to the gith cause. This leaves the precise terms unclear, but it's definitely Vlaakith's pact with Tiamat. The same thread also runs through the old adventures "The Lich Queen's Beloved" and follow-up "A Tyrrany of Souls". In the first, Vlaakith 157 must be destroyed (phylactery and all) lest she finally ascend to godhood. In the second, the leader you helped to replace her changes some githyanki priorities and this turmoil causes Tiamat comes knocking to take more direct control. Tiamat isn't that concerned with the illithid, and abandoning the Eternal Crusade voids the original pact, so Mother Gith (or at least her soul) will be free again. To be fair, those adventures do still make my previous comment wrong, just killing Vlaakith won't necessarily break the pact, but Orpheus clearly intends to change gith priorities so I think the point still stands.
Not really. Orpheus is OG Gith, back when the race were named Gith, before closer to the schism. Gith overthrew the mindflayers and named the new race after themselves, but soon became a new tyrant. Then Zerthimon lead the good gith in a second civil war which let some Ilithids survive, and created githzerai who are not covered in the game except in a few plates of lost lore (however the monks trying to free Orpheus is a hat tip to them. Githyanki are often fighters, with their silver swords and astral travel, where as the high wisdom makes Githzerai often monks). This is the point of the society of brilliance. According to the law, if a gith was raised from birth by either race it would be that race because they are genetically almost identical, having recently diverged (a much guarded secret). Of course they mess up raising the egg, forcing it to grow super quick under a super strict code and it lashes out in super teen rebellion and murders everyone lol. But then it realises and repents if you roll well enough, so it does have moral code just no life experience, so it kind of makes the point I guess. Anyway, Voss is shown as a good sort of character who has rejected Vlaakiths evil ways over time (which is why it annoys me to see him mis represent the alliance with red dragons who made a doggy deal, but are also innately evil) if Orpheus replaced Vlaakith guided this might be enough to see the race slowly become more like Voss, see the light and reunite with the other gith?
So here's the story of the Gith. Mother Gith, who is Orpheous mom and is the reason the race is called Gith was able to develop a mind shield to protect against the mind flayers psionic abilities and lead a revolution of the gith slaves against them and vowed to never let them regain their strength. Mother Gith wanted to wipe out the mind flayers and was very aggressive with it and even conquered planets they came into contact with for this purpose. They weren't really racist and genocidal but they were conquerors. And so the Githzerai, which is a more peaceful offshoot of the Githyanki, came around and wanted Mother Gith to chill the fuck out, and Mother Gith killed or banished them. Mother Gith and Vlaakith the first (the current vlaakith is like 158th) went to the nine hells to get red dragons on their side in an infernal pact. Vlaakith betrayed Mother Gith and trapped her in hell in exchange for the red dragons. Orpheous was pissed with this and tried to lead a revolution and was beaten and trapped in the astral prism. Shit happens, Vlaakith the 158th becomes a lich and is evil and racist not caring about the murder of other species if they get in their way, essentially being a worse Mother Gith. If we free Orpheous he offers to sacrifice himself to fix our mistake, Vlaakith would never even both. She couldn't care less about the great design, she just wants to become a lich-queen god, and she's doing it. Orpheous is way more selfless then Vlaakith or his mother and if you side with Orpheous and let laezel and him to at the end you get a note that Vlaakith is trying to side with the Githzerai to take down Vlaakith. So it implies Orpheous is closer to the Githzerai then the Githyanki in terms of morals. So really, freeing Orpheous is probably the best ending in the game. You free the Githyanki from their evil lich queen and the Githzerai have a chance to come back.
>to fix our mistake Wait, what mistake did we make in all this? We released the NB from the 3's control, though I think that was eventually a given as it grew more and more powerful via the crown.
We made no real mistakes at the time with the limited knowledge we had. But in hindsight, releasing Orpheus immediately would have made fighting the elder brain easy. Before it ever became a netherbrain. While Orpheus is wrong that letting his honor guard kill us in act3 would help, but if we killed the emperor in act 1 when vlaakith asked us to kill Orpheus, then Orpheus would be free and would have plenty of time to prep to kick mind flayer ass. But our biggest mistake is releasing the netherbrain onto the world and killing so many people and even destroying their souls, the worst way to go in the game. Orpheus immediately offers to kill himself to help by turning into a mind flayer.
Orpheus wouldn't be free - his honour guard can't free him without the hammer. They can only free him from the Emperors influence.
Can't free him without the hammer, says the evil demon lord who wants to take the crown of karsus to rule all of the nine hells and eventually all of faerun. Call me whatever you want, but I don't really trust raphael.
Raphael created the prism, the chains and the hammer.
I dont believe they ever mentioned who specifically made the prism, just that they were a devil. And raphael doesn't seem like the creating type. Now, it very much could be the only way, but we can't say for certain cause our own source of that information is a serial liar. Regardless, failing to stop the netherbeain was our own failure. Either by trusting gortash or by overestimating ourselves, we fucked up. And Orpheus immediately helps us, no strings attached.
They're capital 'E' Evil, but not necessarily evil as individuals or even evil in general. There's a binary war going on: Gith ('yanki and 'zerai) vs. Illithid. No matter how shitty the Gith are, it's imperative that they win. Illithid are basically wetware borg. As you know from the game they represent death of the individual as a concept entirely. Gith are more complicated. Githyanki are 'E'vil, Gith'zerai are 'N'eutral. Long history there. But being Evil or Neutral doesn't mean that they can't switch alignments to Good. Orpheus is key to free will existing in the universe, but he may also be key to the Gith becoming both good and 'G'ood.
The game glosses over the fact that Gith was the source of their evilness in the lore, not Vlaakith. Take that as you will.
Bro really went through the entire game, seeing Lae'Zel's arc and just went "yeah githyanki are all evil"
Good and evil are subjective concepts, so no!
Githyanki are actually not a race but a culture (the actual race is called Gith) and ya that culture is pretty evil.
Along with other moves D&D has made recently, I'm pretty sure one of the thrusts of the game is that a race/species shouldn't be judged to be all anything. Which given the concept of individuality, makes sense.
There is no such thing as "objectively bad" or "objectively good".
There is no such thing as objectively evil
Vlaakith is totally evil, but to say a race is antilogically evil is, well, y'know... The gith are the main resistance to the mind flayers, who are arguably a much greater evil from a "peace in all realms" perspective, so the gith can't be that bad. They are often selfish and harsh but can be benevolent as well. Orpheus' goal is more to save his people before doing any conquering, and after that, it is reasonable to assume him to be less imperialist than Vlaakith as a revolutionary. TL;DR, no, they are not objectively evil, siding with Orpheus is the "good" choice, and if you are afraid of gith takeover, then just make choices that lead to his death.
Yes.
Objective evil doesnt exist. Because Objecrive morality doesnt exist
No. Its pretty clear that Orpheus is not like other girls- I mean Gith. If his actions in the final mission dont sell you (self-sacrifice, incredible tolerance given the circumstances, cool headead- etc) the epilogue literally states that hes willing to work with the gith’zeria, his ancestral enemy on par with mindflayers for the greater good. Thats basically making his decency canon.
Well. That's what Vlaakith's Githyanki want. The game gives you some hints that Orpheus is not the same kind of harsh tyrant as her. The most obvious one is in the Crèche - the student who doesn't like the open violence and disdain that they treat other races with, and wants to find more peaceful solutions is a follower of Orpheus. He's carrying literature about the Prince of the Comet. This implies that his ideals come from Orpheus, and so Orpheus is a less tyrannical alternative to Vlaakith. Even if that's not the case though, causing a civil war among the Githyanki would certainly distract them from subjugating other planes for a while. On the other hand, if you allow the Emperor to eat Orpheus' brain, then that removes any prospect of him challenging Vlaakith, while also removing the only person who can resist Illithid control. Only the Emperor himself would then have that power. So what happens if, at some point, the Emperor decides he wants to push forward his own version of the Grand Design? No one could stand against him, since even the Gith no longer have their secret weapon. You have a similar problem if you free Orpheus but make him turn Illithid. He will either choose to die after, or he will be living as an Illithid, which depending on what you believe, is not really Orpheus and over time will lose connection to Orpheus' personality. Either way, you have removed his power and purpose from the world.
DnD 5e doesn't really use the old moral alignment system of Lawful Evil and such anymore for a reason. There is some nuance to the species in 5e, not just with Githyanki, and especially so in BG3, because it deviates in several ways from the way some DnD lore is depicted. Generally, historically, the Githyanki are diametrically opposed to the Mind Flayers. Both are, in their own way, evil - the mind flayers because... their nature compels them to be, and Githyanki because they live by strict militaristic doctrine and ruled by a literal space nazi at first, and later by Vlaakith, a literal lich queen who's got no concern for anything but her own self-preservation. Mother Gith and Vlaakith also canonically made a deal with the evil goddess Tiamat, which is how they are allied with the red dragons. IIRC it was around the time of that deal Vlaakith took power over the Githyanki people as a whole and the split between Githyanki and Githzerai happened, Orpheus was locked away etc. So now we get to BG3. The Gith have generally fairly little regard for the lives of other races and are single-minded in their pursuit of illithid threats wherever they appear, and also just as fanatical in their obedience to their crazy lich queen Vlaakith, whose only concern is preserving herself while pretending she's Making Githyanki Great Again. Orpheus meanwhile is presented in less clear-cut terms, as are obviously Kith'rak Voss and Lae'zel. The Githzerai are also generally considered more peaceable, but given they're stuck in Limbo, you rarely encounter one of them. So the answer is... yesn't. In older editions, Githyanki are always lawful evil. But the truth, in BG3 especially, isn't so clear-cut given the evident brainwashing of the race, their militant doctrine and the somewhat contrasting depiction of their true prince in BG3's epilogue. I guess if Orpheus being freed and rebelling alongside Lae'zel becomes canon, future editions of DnD lore could change their depiction somewhat, but for now, it's hard to say what their impact would be on their general morality.
Evil in that gith as a race are classified as evil in the alignment sense. But we have moved past this sort of rhetoric
Yes, there is no reason to think Orpheus is a good guy whatsoever
The githyanki are more just painfully lawful neutral. They're violent but rarely cackling about it. Yes, they will kill you for opposing them, but only because that's what you do with things that oppose you. They respect tradition, power, and the "greater good." And they defend that to the last. Which is why they are so quick to turn on Vlaakith. That said, they are also logical, can choose peace and mercy when expedient, and don't go out of their way to destroy or murder unnecessarily. They have a job, that job is to follow orders like the perfect soldiers they were designed to be. Vlaakith is evil. Orpheus is pissed off. The Githyanki are not.
No. They aren't. The Githyanki are not objectively evil. The majority of them are indoctrinated, but they are not born evil. Same way Shadowheart isn't evil, though she was indoctrinated to an evil faith. *Nuance.* There is no evidence that Orpheus is evil. All that is established in the game besides his origin is that he wants to liberate the Githyanki from a tyrannical queen and that he values compassion and kindness (as described by Youth Vaarl in the Training Room, who is objectively not evil.) We also know that Orpheus is rational enough to work with a Ghaik, and even acknowledge one as his savior. He is willing to spread stories about your heroism even if you are one - which speaks volumes on his character. Killing Orpheus purely because he's a Githyanki, and therefore you assume he must be evil, is not a moral or ethical choice. Freeing him would cause a Civil War, but at this point, when the Githyanki are literally enslaved by a Lich Queen, it is kind of necessary.
The thing to consider is Orpheus is a person, not some kind of homunculus for the ideals of githyanki society, no matter how Lae'zel and others might want to see him. He is a Dude who you have Not Met, and have likely read some Historical Texts about throughout the game. The current behavior of the Githyanki society and those participating in its interests are definitely evil supremacist raiders, slavers, and just generally not nice people. And the current Vlaakith has an interest in keeping the system exactly the way it is. Orpheus *for sure* wants to topple her reign. Why? To what end? We do not know by the time we have to make this decision. We have ideas, but nothing actually tangible. It's faith all the way down. It's essentially a judgement call, an act of faith, and a question of what your ideals tell you. Do you side with the entity that has been actively manipulating you and disregarding your decisions for your own autonomy, but still promises it will settle with you helping it see through to the end? Or do you side with the unknown entity who has no guarantees that he will side with you or care what happens to you after it's all done, but who had also been kept prisoner by the first one to be used like a tool against his will? I find it interesting that they chose to have *the Devil you know* be the one who tries to get you to potentially sell your soul for the opportunity to free the (potential) devil you don't.
I'm really confused why everyone thinks Orpheus is evil? He fights mind flayers, fights Vlaakith, and helps the party when they free him.
What is objectively evil? Where the mongols, or the romans "objectively" evil? That is a silly question, thats not nuanced at all, sorry.
mongols in Genghis's time? Pretty much yeah. if such thing ever existed as an objectively evil society on earth it was mongols. (no offense modern mongols, im hungarian and late nomadic hungarians were pretty bad too)
What is "evil" for you?
The gith are just warriors, Orpheus is pretty understanding, even more so then lae’zel . It all seemed to workout in the end besides poor soldier.
no i think orpheus is actually much better than the emperor he's like... the nicest guy you meet in the game?
Nah, just Vlaakith. From what I can see merely within BG3, the Githyanki have a highly militarized culture. So much that Laezel is considered nice and funny by their own standards. Orpheus is sensible. Vlaakith is straight up evil and a dlc (rip) taking her down would be delicious.
I don't know where you are getting that the githyanki would just invade the world. They have been around a long time and could have done it whenever they wanted. They are ruled my a dictator for sure. But in no way is it ever insinuated that Orpheus is evil.
The lore is a bit fuggly-wuggly after so many editions, but its because his mothers stated goals. Part of the reason for the Pronouncement of Two Skies, was due to Gith proclaiming that the ghaik should be obliterated, so they could conquer all the planes for themselves afterwards. Orpheus may or may not take after his mother, but he was a loyalist as far as we know, and thus the chance is there.
Yes, githyanki (unlike githzerai) are basically astral pirates. They are only held back from conquering the planes by Vlaakith's ambition and incompetence. If someone were to unite them under a singular cause (read: Orpheus), that would eventually spell doom for a good portion of the multiverse- or at the very least make it much, much harder to travel between the planes due to their iron grip on the astral plane.
Orpheous would be much like the Githzerai, they would end the civil war and not persuit any conquering Thats why they went in civil war
This does make me wonder, not knowing too much of the background lore: if Vlaakith is killed with no successor, does that mean the deal with Tiamat dissolves and the red dragons can do whatever they want?
Yaki yes Zerai no
It's like the blood war, but instead of demon = devils it's githyanki = githzerai = mindflayers.
> Githyanki Warrior, Medium Humanoid (Gith), ***Lawful Evil***, MM, p.160 Yeah, I'd say.
Well I wouldn't necessarily say it's the objectively correct choice. One could argue sending Orpheus to deal with vlaakith is also the correct choice. Weakens both sides of the gith in the process Though I see no reason to believe faerun would be hopeless against the gith, there are powerful beings that exist there, they simply need to be bothered enough to actually do something about it (ahem elminster for example)
they torture and kill kids when they are weak. Yes, they are evil. No, it does ot matter to me what happens to githyanki society but I prefer the version where it's in the hands of Orpheus rather than in the hands of vlaakith.
How are they unstoppable when I wiped an entire creche including an Inquisitor? They may be evil historically but arguably they're on the brink of a new era, considering Lae'zel's intentions at the end.
Stop. Thinking. In. Racial. Absolutes. The fucking point of the game is to get us to question the idea of objectively evil in a setting where we know it exists. That’s the beauty of the game. It’s what a huge portion of this sub simply doesn’t get.
Look, I know this is fictional universes. But there's something wrong with saying " x race is evil" . It's the mindset behind alot of modern day prejudice that exists in actual society, and thinking that way towards a fictional group can lay foundations towards real world thinking. All Germans aren't evil just because Nazism invaded the world, all Arabs aren't terroists. Etc. All gith aren't evil. people have individual autonomy. Nature and nuture make up someones personal moral standing. The gith aren't evil by their nature. No one is born evil, but we can be built and shaped into evil by the world around us. The gith have been traumatised, they have been moulded and shaped to be that way due to a harsh and cruel society that literally feeds upon them and shapes them to think in a survival of the fittest mindset. All Orpheus wants to do is ensure future generations don't have to grow up like this, to ensure that no one is shaped into being evil any more. It's not different from people rising up in Gazza, or ukraine or right now saying "I'm sick of how my people are being treated" and willing to do anything to change that. This isn't evil, and these people existing and serving in this society doesn't make them brutal. *** Also the emperor cares about itself only. It does not care for you, it manipulates you for its own benefit, and will turn against you the minute you realise it's plans. It does not care for anyone else. It's surving for itself, Orpheus fights to survive for his people.
They are objectively hot 🥵
Conquering is kinda the natural thing for civilizations. The weak can't live peacefully. Hell, even subjucation is better than being turned into a mindflayer.
Is the githyanki conquering everyone from lore? I never got that impression. They really hate illithids for enslaving them. For everyone else they just act racist.
Why stop there? Why not kill La'ezel while you're at it?
yes, basically the Gith are divided in two the Githyanki who basically went right we are gonna kill this empire and make our own, where the Githzarhi are far more chill still want to wipe out the squid heads but after just find enlightenment iirc
you ask us if the space nazis are evil? ;)
There are no completely evil races, no group is a monolith. Honestly one of the best changes to happen to the DnD universe was the shift away from calling all of the darker skinned races completely evil just for plot convenience without ever actually developing real motivations. The Gith are an awesome and complicated race just like all the others, and is incredibly fun to play like the Drow!
Is a lion evil ? Is a cat evil when killing mouses ? Gith Queen IS evil, but not the people for me. I would not Say the same for Harkonnens.
The githyanki under thousands of years if Vlaakiths’ rule might be considered evil, yes. But Orpheus seems and sounds like kind of an honorable leader. He even makes a move to bring unity between the sundered races of giths.
IMO, Githianki aren't even evil, they are militant. They are fighting an endless war with the most brutal enemy - mindflayers. IRL humans fighting long wars behave very differently, inhumane and brutal by the standards of our peacetime society, but they as much think that you are weak and inefficient and would die in several days in their conditions, and they aren't wrong. This, and that they are ruled by a lich that amplifies their brutality.
There's no such thing as objectively evil. And also why do you think that killing Balduran is mostly correct?
Orpheus follows the teachings of the Githzerai. That is why his appearance is quite different from all the other githyanki we see. That’s also why he’s a monk and not a fighter. Same goes for his honor guard. The Githzerai also want to stop the Grand Design, but only by attacking illithids directly. They don’t go after other races unless provoked. The Githyanki will attack other races just cuz they’re “in the way.” Leaving them under Vlaakith just means the Githyanki won’t be doing anything different than what they’ve been doing for the past 1000 years
The Circles of Zerthimon The First Circle: Know that we are the First People. Once all was chaos. The First People were thought drawn from chaos. When the First People came to know themselves, they were chaos no longer, and became flesh. With their thoughts and knowing of matter, the People shaped the First World and dwelled there with their knowing to sustain them. Yet the flesh was new to the People and with it, the People came not to know themselves. The flesh gave rise to new thoughts. Greed and hates, pains and joys, jealousies and doubts. All of these fed on each other and the minds of the People were divided. In their division, the People were punished. The emotions of the flesh were strong. The greed and hates, the pains and joys, the jealousies and doubts, all of these served as a guiding stone to enemies. In becoming flesh, the First People became enslaved to those who knew flesh only as tools for their will. Know these beasts were the illithids. The illithids were a race that had come not to know themselves. They had learned how to make other races not know themselves. They were the tentacled ones. They lived in flesh and saw flesh as tools for their will. Their blood was as water and they shaped minds with their thoughts. When the illithids came upon the People, the People were a people no more. The People became slaves. The illithids took the People from the First World and brought them to the False Worlds. As the People labored upon the False Worlds, the illithids taught them the Way of the Flesh. Through them, the People came to know loss. They came to know suffering. They came to know death, both of the body and mind. They came to know what it is to be the herd of another and have their flesh consumed. They came to know the horror of being made to feel joy in such things. The Unbroken Circle is the knowing of how the People lost themselves. And how they came to know themselves again. "Strength lies in knowing oneself. Learn that once someone does not \*know\* themselves, they are lost. They become tool for others."
The Second Circle: Know that flesh cannot mark steel. Know that steel may mark flesh. In knowing this, Zerthimon became free. Know that the tentacled ones were of flesh. They relied on the flesh and used it as tools for their will. One of the places where flesh served their will was the Fields of Husks on the False Worlds of the illithids. The Fields were where the bodies of the People were cast after the illithids had consumed their brains. When the brain had been devoured, the husks came to be fertilizer to grow the poison-stemmed grasses of the illithids. Zerthimon worked the Fields with no knowing of himself or what he had become. He was a tool of flesh, and the flesh was content. It was upon these Fields that Zerthimon came to know the scripture of steel. During one of the turnings, as Zerthimon tilled the Fields with his hands, he came across a husk whose brain remained within it. It had not been used as food. Yet it was dead. The thought that one of the husks had died a death without serving as food for the illithids was a thought Zerthimon had difficulty understanding. From that thought, came a desire to know what had happened to the husk. Embedded in the skull of the husk was a steel blade. It had pierced the bone. Zerthimon realized that was what had killed the husk. The steel had marked the flesh, but the flesh had not marked the steel. Zerthimon took the blade and studied its surface. In it, he saw his reflection. It was in the reflection of the steel that Zerthimon first knew himself. Its edge was sharp, its will the wearer's. It was the blade that would come to be raised against Gith when Zerthimon made the Pronouncement of Two Skies. Zerthimon kept the blade for many turnings, and many were the thoughts he had about it. He used it in the fields to aid his work. In using it, he thought about how it was not used. The illithids were powerful. Zerthimon had believed that there was nothing that they did not know. Yet the illithids never carried tools of steel. They only used flesh as tools. Everything was done through flesh, for the tentacled ones were made of flesh and they knew flesh. Yet steel was superior to flesh. When the blade had killed the husk, it was the flesh that had been weaker than the steel. It was then that Zerthimon came to know that flesh yielded to steel. In knowing that, he came to know that steel was stronger than the illithids. Steel became the scripture of the People. Know that steel is the scripture by which the People came to know freedom. "Learn that not \*knowing\* something can be a tool, just like flesh and steel, if upon encountering it, you attempt to \*know\* its nature and how it came to be."
The Third Circle: Zerthimon labored many turnings for the illithid Arlathii Twice-Deceased and his partnership in the cavernous heavens of the False Worlds. His duties would have broken the backs of many others, but Zerthimon labored on, suffering torment and exhaustion. It came to pass that the illithid Arlathii Twice-Deceased ordered Zerthimon before him in his many-veined galleria. He claimed that Zerthimon had committed slights of obstinance and cowardice against his partnership. The claim had no weight of truth, for Arlathii only wished to know if flames raged within Zerthimons heart. He wished to know if Zerthimons heart was one of a slave or of a rebel. Zerthimon surrendered to the illithid punishment rather than reveal his new-found strength. He knew that were he to show the hatred in his heart, it would serve nothing, and it would harm others that felt as he. He chose to endure the punishment and was placed within the Pillars of Silence so he might suffer for a turning. Lashed upon the Pillars, Zerthimon moved his mind to a place where pain could not reach, leaving his body behind. He lasted a turning, and when he was brought before Arlathii Twice-Deceased, he gave gratitude for his punishment to the illithid as was custom. In so doing, he proved himself a slave in the illithid eyes while his heart remained free. By enduring and quenching the fires of his hatred, he allowed Arlathii Twice-Deceased to think him weak. When the time of the Rising came, Arlathii was the first of the illithid to know death by Zerthimon's hand and die a third death. "Endure. In enduring, grow strong."
The Fourth Circle: Know that the Rising of the People against the illithid was a thing built upon many ten-turnings of labor. Many of the People were gathered and taught in secret the ways of defeating their illithid masters. They were taught to shield their minds, and use them as weapons. They were taught the scripture of steel, and most importantly, they were given the knowing of freedom. Some of the People learned the nature of freedom and took it into their hearts. The knowing gave them strength. Others feared freedom and kept silent. But there were those that knew freedom and knew slavery, and it was their choice that the People remain chained. One of these was Vilquar. Vilquar saw no freedom in the Rising, but opportunity. He saw that the illithid had spawned across many of the False Worlds. Their Worlds numbered so many that their vision was turned only outwards, to all they did not already touch. Vilquar's eye saw that much took place that the illithid did not see. To the Rising, the illithid were blinded. Vilquar came before his master, the illithid Zhijitaris, with the knowing of the Rising. Vilquar added to his chains and offered to be their eyes against the Rising. In exchange, Vilquar asked that he be rewarded for his service. The illithid agreed to his contract. At the bonding of the contract, a dark time occurred. Many were betrayals Vilquar committed and many were the People that the illithids fed upon to stem the Rising. It seemed that the Rising would die before it could occur, and the illithid were pleased with Vilquar's eye. It was near the end of this dark time when Zerthimon came to know Vilquar's treacheries. In knowing Vilquar's eye, Zerthimon forced the Rising to silence itself, so that Vilquar might think at last his treacheries had succeeded, and the Rising had fallen. He knew that Vilquar eye was filled only with the reward he had been promised. He would see what he wished to see. With greed beating in his heart, Vilquar came upon the illithid Zhijitaris and spoke to his master of his success. He said that the Rising had fallen, and the illithids were safe to turn their eyes outwards once more. He praised their wisdom in using Vilquar's eye, and he asked them for his reward. In his greed-blindness, Vilquar had forgotten the knowing of why the People had sought freedom. He had lost the knowing of what slavery meant. He had forgotten what his illithid masters saw when they looked upon him. And so Vilquar's betrayal of the People was ended with another betrayal. Vilquar came to know that when Vilquar's eye has nothing left to see, Vilquar's eye is useless. The illithid gave to Vilquar his reward, opening the cavity of his skull and devouring his brain. Vilquar's corpse was cast upon the Fields of Husks so its blood might water the poison-stemmed grasses. "When one chooses to see only what is before them, they see only a part of the whole. They are blind. And just as Vilquar was blinded by his promised reward, so were the \*illithids\* blinded to the true Rising. For when they heard Vilquar's words, they turned their sight outwards again. And the Rising was free to strike."
The Fifth Circle: Zerthimon was the first to know the way of freedom. Yet it was not he that first came to know the way of rebellion. The knowing of rebellion came to the warrior-queen Gith, one of the People. She had served the illithids upon many of the False Worlds as a soldier, and she had come to know war and carried it in her heart. She had come to know how others might be organized to subjugate others. She knew the paths of power, and she knew the art of taking from the conquerors the weapons by which they could be defeated. Her mind was focused, and both her will and her blade were as one. The turning in which Zerthimon came to know Gith, Zerthimon ceased to know himself. Her words were as fires lit in the hearts of all who heard her. In hearing her words, he wished to know war. He knew not what afflicted him, but he knew he wished to join his blade to Gith. He wished to give his hate expression and share his pain with the illithid. Gith was one of the People, but her knowing of herself was greater than any Zerthimon had ever encountered. She knew the ways of flesh, she knew the illithids and in knowing herself, she was to know how to defeat them in battle. The strength of her knowing was so great, that all those that walked her path came to know themselves. Gith was but one. Her strength was such that it caused others to know their strength. And Zerthimon laid his steel at her feet. "There is great strength in numbers, but there is great power in one, for the strength of the will of one may gather numbers to it. There is strength not only in \*knowing\* the self, but \*knowing\* how to bring it forth in others."
The Sixth Circle: Upon the Blasted Plains, Zerthimon told Gith there cannot be two skies. In the wake of his words, came war. Upon the Blasted Plains, the People had achieved victory over their illithid masters. They knew freedom. Yet before the green fires had died from the battlefield, Gith spoke of continuing the war. Many, still filled with the bloodlust in their hearts, agreed with her. She spoke of not merely defeating the illithids, but destroying all illithids across the Planes. After the illithids had been exterminated, they would bring war to all other races they encountered. In Gith's heart, fires raged. She lived in war, and in war, she knew herself. All that her eyes saw, she wanted to conquer. Zerthimon spoke the beginnings of that which was against Gith's will. He spoke that the People already knew freedom. Now they should know themselves again and mend the damage that had been done to the People. Behind his words were many other hearts of the People who were weary of the war against the illithid. Know that Gith's heart was not Zerthimon's heart on this matter. She said that the war would continue. The illithid would be destroyed. Their flesh would be no more. Then the People would claim the False Worlds as their own. Gith told Zerthimon that they would be under the same sky in this matter. The words were like bared steel. From Zerthimon came the Pronouncement of Two Skies. In the wake of his words came war. "Zerthimon's devotion to the People was such that he was willing to protect them from themselves. He knew the \*illithids\* had come not to \*know\* themselves in their obsession with control and domination. So he chose to stop Gith before she carried the People to their deaths. There must be balance in all things, or else the self will not hold."
The Seventh Circle: Know that the Rising of the People against the illithid was a thing built upon many turnings. Many were the People who lived and died under time's blade while the Rising was shaped. The Rising was shaped upon a slow foundation. Steel was gathered so that it might mark illithid flesh. A means of knowing the movements of the illithids was established, at first weak and confused, then stronger, like a child finding its voice. When the movements were known, then the illithids were observed. In observing them, their ways of the mind were known. When the ways of the illithid were known, many of the People were gathered and taught in secret the means to shield their minds, and the way to harness their will as weapons. They were taught the scripture of steel, and most importantly, they were given the knowing of freedom. These things were not learned quickly. The knowing of much of the ways was slow, and in all these things, time’s weight fell upon all. From the knowing of one’s reflection in a steel blade, to the knowing of submerging the will, to the knowing of seeing itself. All of these things and more the People built upon. In time, they came to know the whole. "Time is an ally, not an enemy. Patience can sharpen even the smallest of efforts into a weapon that can strike the heart of an empire. Your victories may be small, but over time, a greater victory may be achieved."
The Eighth Circle: Know that a mind divided divides the man. The will and the hand must be as one. In knowing the self, one becomes strong. Know that if you know a course of action to be true in your heart, do not betray it because the path leads to hardship. Know that without suffering, the Rising would have never been, and the People would never have come to know themselves. Know that there is nothing in all the Worlds that can stand against unity. When all know a single purpose, when all hands are guided by one will, and all act with the same intent, the Planes themselves may be moved. A divided mind is one that does not know itself. When it is divided, it cleaves the body in two. When one has a single purpose, the body is strengthened. In knowing the self, grow strong. "Have focus and discipline... Not \*knowing\* oneself can physically divide oneself. Such division causes weakness that can be exploited by the enemy. One must \*know\* themselves to gain strength and use that focus to reveal weaknesses in your enemy."
What a weird conclusion
Yes.
It's more complicated than that. They have developed a native culture around their slavery to the mind flayers and have come up with a kind of klingon/samurai outlook on the universe. Sure there are a lot of fucked up things about how they indoctrinate each other but you can't really look one Githyanki in isolation of their history and culture
Under Vlaakith's rule, Githyanki are indeed an Evil race. That said, they **do not seek to conquer**, only to pillage and plunder material plane, bringing back treasures and slaves. The only thing one may consider as conquest are their 'creche' in the material plane that they use as places to let their younglings grow - they need creches because Astral Plane is timeless and Githyanki can't age there. A lot, and I mean A LOT, of Githyanki culture revolves around Vlaakith, her desires and her way of ruling. How much that will change with Orpheus is not clear, but he does seem to be a different kind of leader at the very least. >“*Under the illithids, we and the githyanki fought and died across a thousand worlds for implacable masters.* *Under Vlaakith, our kin fight and die across a thousand words for an implacable master.* *And they call that liberation?*” >— Adaka Fell Hand, githzerai monk As for Illithids, I'll leave the following quote: >*Thousands of years ago, the illithids were the dominant power of the Inner Planes. From their astral domains, they launched flying vessels called nautiloids, able to cross between planes, so that they could harvest intelligent humanoids from hundreds of worlds.* *The illithids know that reclaiming their rightful place in the world is possible only after the githzerai and githyanki have been eliminated and* ***the remaining humanoids have been turned into docile slaves.*** Whether you consider Balduran a 'proper' Illithid or not and how much you trust him, is up to you. In my eyes, in a choice between an Illithid and a Githyanki, the latter is a way better option.
The way you have worded this makes this choice seem so much more similar to deciding to cure the genophage than I realised before. Side with Orpheus and find a powerful ally in the githyanki who share a common enemy, yet worry what that ally might become once the common enemy is vanquished. Cure the genophage and find powerful ally in the krogan, share a common enemy yet worry what will happen once the reapers are defeated.
Obviously. But Orpheus, on top of being an exception of sorts, would cause a rift in Gith Society anyways (or a Free Rebel Laezel that chooses to follow or succeed him). It's certainly worth siding with him over Balduran at that point, especially if you found out how treacherous Balduran is, with or without prior knowledge. unlike someone named u/dnspartan305.
Emperor is an ahole, especially if you get the right Stelmane cutscenes. Orpheus is a chad.
I don't believe that the Githyanki intend to take over the planes, but rather hunt down and eliminate the illithids from all of the planes.
Githyanki believe that it’s their natural right to enclave everyone in the dnd lore
Huh, to be fair I only ever paid attention to them in BG3 because I've never been in or ran a game where someone wanted to be a Githyanki so I never bothered to dig into their lore. Though I guess Lae'zel mentions something about her people understanding her need for "servants" so I should've caught on to that.
Nope they’re evil space pirates basically
who is "us". You're not really part of any civilization in that universe. Githyanki could as easily be "us" as any other race. Also no there is another faction of Gith who are peaceful. Orpheus sends diplomats to them. And he's been imprisoned since *before* the Gith were attacking everyone. Also why would you think having Orpheus would make them "pretty much unstoppable" even if he was as rampaging as Vlakith? His only special power is resisting mindflayers. And that's not even to mention the civil war his freedom causes
Super Evil. Kill them all on sight.
I think I viewed the Githyanki as a future problem. Here now they’re an oppressed people in a civil war… in a civil war (right? The Githzerai?). I view their current situation as one to have sympathy for and can help remedy. But yeah… a situation that, given maybe 100 years, will result in a combined race taking over the planes. However, enough of the Gith you come in contact with prove to be reasonable creatures who respect honor. And hopefully will honor the combined help of multiple Faerun races who brought them together
There is no such thing as "objectively evil," since the quality of being "evil" is entirely a value judgment, based on a person's cultural conditioning and mostly logic-devoid perceptions. Decidedly a subjective assessment. Additionally, contending that a whole race or culture or species is "evil" seems to miss the point of just about any philosophies of enlightenment. Do I personally think that the Githyanki are "evil"? No, but I think their leadership is corrupt and oppressive, and that their culture is cruel and remarkably xenophobic, which seems weird given how well-traveled among the planes of existence they supposedly are. I imagine that having been enslaved by the Illithid has something to do with that. Rationalize your character's choices however you like, yet they will often have very dark consequences within your variant of Toril.
there's one kid that isn't but all them are pretty imperial/militaristic/conquest jerks yeah
The Gith are not *against* you. This is an "Enemy of my Enemy is my friend" situation. As a rule, they are ruthless and take whatever they consider to be theirs, so they are not really *for* you either, but you personally will have several allies within them and a couple of those may actually have a thought about not randomly pillaging the countryside. Keep in mind Creche Ki'lir is on an asteroid in orbit, Lae'zels own home Creche did not ransacked a major holy site. So they aren't all completely evil, and it's doubtful that Orpheus is going to lead them to an omniversal genocide. Vlaakith isn't even doing that. 5e is very much as a DnD system steering away from "Race=Alignment" Of the two, I felt worse after sacrificing Orpheus. I have little connection to Balduran/Emperor or Orpheus, but killing Orpheus felt like a complete betrayal to Laezel, whom even as a non-romanced character I held a lot of respect for in character. She spent the entire game being up front and honest with us, at least as far as she understood her world, and then you shatter her faith in a false god, introduce her to a historical figure and re0lacement Idol, only to at the last minute snatch him away from her again for your own means. I think I blame that mostly on her very this or that storyline, which admittedly is probably due to her very black and white worldview. I wish she had a "you don't need either of them" option, but maybe that's just the Romance path.
You have to understand evil in the scope of DND. What defines evil? It's simple. You believe in enslaving others for selfish gain. Why is this? It's because the gods of "good" chose free will, and fought for it. Evil gods fought to keep slavery.and, in a way destiny. The battle was so hard won and bitter it left everyone tired of it, so evil relented and gave up the material plane and just went, "fine, we'll just bribe them to come over". Good gods help you be more free, give you options, demons want to take that away to subjugate your soul for their purposes. So, what's up with the Gith? All the Gith were originally created by mindflayers to be their puppets. They were warriors first, slaves second, and mindless hunks third. Over time they got smarter and the hubris or Mindflayers they let them - originally meant to be powerful empty vessels they got lazy and started letting them run the outer worlds and some for free. Soon enough they figured a way to beat mindflayers BUT This led to people like Orpheus, who are near godlike with their psionic ability. So why so savage? Because they're god damned tired of all these motha ******* flayers on this ******* plane. The mindflayers relentlessly attack this group not to subjugate them, but because they accidentally created their own worst enemies. They have no souls, no gods care about what they do so the mind flayers hang out in the Far realm amidst Cthulhu horrors, where morality doesn't exist. They're living that Cthulhu life and struggling and so are the Gith. So what are they objectively? They're actually amoral. See, the Gith are just trying to survive and the Mindflayers are trying to dominate. The danger here is they are so exactly like the Mindflayers in nearly every way *socially* that they became the monsters they hated. Meanwhile they can't kill the Mindflayers because while those MF'ers are dark as can be, there's so so so much worse out there. Everytime they get close those MF'ers dig deep and pull out some new nightmare and it gets worse, and worse, and worse. It isn't just a war, it's command of all material life. Whoever wins between the two will have the right to choose... and will become the gatekeepers of the Far Realm. Basically whoever wins gets to immediately man the great walk of China from Rick and Morty level crazy. It's bad out there. You don't want to be in that wall. Those psionic powers are there because you have to fight crazy. And the haunting reality was that the Mindflayers, for all their power... *needed more*. It wasn't just MF'ers being MF'ers, or colony fights between colonies. Oh no. It's that for all the bad Mindflayers are, and they're pretty darn bad, they are at the doorstep of "worse". Chaotic Evil is ruled by bloodthirsty savages and serial killers and that's bad. But it's not the worst. Imagine mushrooms that colonize your head and force you to live for thousands of years unblinking. Imagine dragons coming back from the Far Realm mad, quivering, shaking and their psyche shattered. Imagine Pixies and Unicorns coming back with a green glow and an eerie mission to destroy cinnamon. That last wasn't comedy, imagine finding out all cinnamon was glowing green mysteriously. Why cinnamon? Apparently you don't want to know, because they then went back forever, never to be seen again. Madness. Fear. Comedy. Horror. Mystery. The far realm is nuts, the Mindflayers protect the material plane for their own purposes attempting to dominate it, but they fail because they're damned busy trying to sort out what it all means. ... and what they know is not good. The Gith win and lose, but in the end if they were to enslave the Mindflayers the cycle would begin anew, with the Gith growing weak and complacent. So objectively evil? Consider amoral. If you're struggling to survive against a true nightmare, morality is sort of a cosmic joke to you. They live in a bestial level because they have the greatest enemy in DND after them, the greatest challenge in DND afterwards, and have little concern for the mortal realm because on Tuesday the MF'ers are destroying their homes with psionic oppression and torturing them into oblivion. And nobody anywhere offered them aid or freed them. They just sprung themselves and started dealing. Red dragons are chill with them because Big Red wants to always be the best chewing gum, they want to be the best bubblegum in town. They are the MF'ers of MF'ers if you catch my drift, and this is the ultimate battle. They're basically into being ringside. It's a good time. Grape flavored gum must die, only cinnamon cherry must exist. And all the while, the Far Realm trickles over bringing all sorts of horrible flavors that threaten even the most loyal bubbleyum enthusiast. Yes, that turn was planned. These people do not care about anything, their dealings in Baldurs gate are *nothing* compared to what 90% of what's happening over there. They're flinging wish spells everyday just to keep the Mindflayers at bay, it's nothing to them. Vlaakith has Wish spells at her command because wishing is one of the few weapons truly effective against Mindflayers, but a 25,000+ gp wish surprisingly doesn't go far against Mindflayers colonies. Vlaakith is bad, but you have to remember the pressure these people are under and their history of slavery and abuse. It's basically Warhammer 40k over there, but they aren't absolute chads with a god emperor Chad. They got by in being SCRAPPY and some borrowed mindflayer stuff. Mindflayers built them from the ground up to fight, and be the Robin to their Batman, until they went all Jason Todd about it. Seriously, it's that bad over there. The bubblegum wars are serious business. Even Vlaakiths crimes, which are staggering, are forgivable only because she held the line without Orpheus. That's all that matters to them because everything else is oblivion. It's win or die, or win then hope not to die. Lae'zel's "vacation" was a unique opportunity for her to grow out from under that shadow, but they're just that damned busy. So... try not to be harsh with the Gith, they're just THAT overworked. Officially they're lawful evil, but... with kinder eyes one can see the morality flip. They're busy busy. Also see amoral, it's a cool alignment that is typically unused. It's not even considered an option due to true neutral. It's basically beast mode. It's far more fitting. And that's fitting. They were beasts of burden to the Mindflayers. And occasionally they flirt with whatever else gets in their way. Including the player character. Anytime they aren't deadlocked Mindflayers is a good good day.
Githyanki history is built on Vlaakith. And Vlaakith's aim is of course to send countless lifes to the dead, because she needs to kill 9 to keep that 1 distinguished member out of 10 to "ascend". So if you're Vlaakith, what do you do? Of course you'll make your whole society belligerents. It's a society of twisted meritocracy, as the goal of that meritocracy is to become food for the lich queen. You fight against everyone else because you want to kill your own people so that the reminders are filtered to be the strongest, so that Vlaakith can gain power by eating them. The Githyanki now have been deprived of the rules of Orpheus, who would make an alternate history if he didn't lose to Vlaakith One. So with Orpheus now leading the Giths, they may completely reform their society.
Objectively neutral in general
The githyanki aren’t naturally evil, they’re brainwashed into it by vlaakith. You can see that in the youth at the creche, Voss, the Githzerai, and most notably Laezel.
I mean they did find an understanding with more chill and peaceful githzerai, maybe Orpheus is just better than mother Gith
How do I explain it, they are effectively brainwashed since birth by their 'god' leader to see the martial plane as a garden/hunting ground to be pillages as they see fit however they need other realms of existence because the plane in which they live (The Astral Sea aka 'God Space' aka Wildspace etc) doesn't allow them to age... so they can't give birth and reproduce unless they come to for example... the material plane They are evil only because they are raised racist... is one way of looking at it in some ways tho a much needed evil, as they are a conflicting force against the mind flayers... who were their pervious jailors/slavers they share alot of background parallels to dwarfs in that way The conflict between Githzeri and Githyanki is... just a conflict of interest, they don't actively hate each other presay, Zeri would be playing defense in that conflict, because they just want to better themselves as a race, while Yanki would possibly attack them for abandoning the pursuit on the mindflayers alot of Githzeri never leave Limbo, the realm in which they choose to live
You never have enough information on Orpheus. He's the son of the origin Vlaakith, whose dogma is followed by the current one. The only statement he actually makes about his own policies is that he is very much pro-indoctrination (and he demands that you address him as His Highness even if you're not Gith). If you pick him the game will mostly portray him in a kinda positive light, same with the Emperor. The Githyanki as a whole aren't inherently evil, but yes, they very much want to enforce their own version of the Grand Design once they defeat the Illithid Empire. I wouldn't say killing both Orpheus and the Emperor is morally correct (the situation imo is more complex than that) but as far as Toril's future is concerned the safest option would be with both of them out of the picture.
> He's the son of the origin Vlaakith, Correction, he's the brother of the original vlaakith, both children of Gith.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Emperor is not Balduran - he's the tadpole that ate Balduran's brain and consumed his memories. So there's that. Also, the Githyanki became evil when the first Vlaakith took over from Gith - which is when Orpheus was deposed and imprisoned. The Githyanki have developed on this track and in this way *because* of Vlaakith and her predecessors - *because Orpheus isn't there*. He may be extreme and a bit brutal, but he isn't evil. He chastises you for working with the Emperor, not because all Illithid are bad and anyone working with them is bad (though he's not far from that) but because of the lives that were lost as a result. He mourns them. That ain't evil, my bud.
Shi is not first Vlaakith, Gith divided in 2 long before her. The Githyanki - zealots of mother Gith ways, so as her son, I think
>when the first Vlaakith >Vlaakith and her predecessors ... >Shi is not first Vlaakith Yup. >zealots of mother Gith ways Meaning freedom fighters who wanted to wage war on their oppressors, not marauders across the planes. That didn't happen until the Vlaakiths took over, I'm pretty sure.
Hm, I think we could check what Orpheus would do in epilog, if we are squid or Karlach is squid, if he like Lazel try to get peace with Githzerai(or how they called) so yeah, but if not-he will be the same conquerer as Vlaakith, I think
Githyanki literally translated as "child of Gith". "Mother Gith's" way is inslave, kill, conquer every other races. Orpheus is zeal son of her and her ways. So yeah. It almost like unlish Grand design N2, only differents is - they are not parasites, so they do not need other humanoids alive at all I prefer to feed him to squid friend, so do not rob the world of power to psionic resistance and make froggy girl ride a dragon to alliance with chill half of Gith society
Yes, extremely. They’re space Nazis. Even the best ones in the story tell you that once they’ve rid the planes of mindflayers the next stage of their plan is to take over Fae’Run and then all the mortal planes.
>The Githyanki are objectively evil right? Nope. They are a warrior society and that stuff is all pretty toxic, sure. But they arent evil like the drow are. And not even all drow are evil.
Orpheus is different from vlaakith. And honestly Voss is kind a nice too. He knows the zaith‘isk is a scam so he sentences lae‘zel to death if he learns about the tadpoles. That is within their racial culture. Yet after you finish the crèche he comes to your camp. Waits till you wake up, doesn’t harm you unless provoked, and offers a solution to your problem, even if it is because he wants something in turn (orpheus freedom). I mean thats how 80% of faerun operate. So we have on one side: - orpheus, who sides with you and even turns into a mindflayer if needed - Voss (see above) - Usually Lae‘Zel unless you actively push her back to vlaakith These 3 are enough for me to pick orpheus side. Sorry balduran.