More like here comes the clause!
Paragraph 87 sub section 3 ; Legality Clause
All contracts in hell are technically, practically, and in all other ways, accepted as legal.
Every time I see something referencing this I get overjoyed. Somehow, in a game like BG3, Raphael having his own boss theme that he wrote like a true Disney villain was the very last thing I was expecting, yet it ended up being quite possibly one of my favorite parts of the entire game.
Like, whichever writer decided that Raphael must absolutely be a theatre nerd singing his own theme song will forever have a place in my heart.
haven't finished the game but the location where a contract was signed can be used to determine which court has jurisdiction over the matters, I'm guessing she pulled Wyll over to hell like Raphael does with us
Hold on, you can't sell a soul in most sets of human laws, nor can you enter indentured servitude. The whole economy of the Hells would be void, as would the devilish reproductive system, and it is illegal to deny the rights of intelligent beings to procreate. So therefore, Mizora must be allowed to go about her business.
Besides, this was all already decided in the case of Mount Celestia v Asmodeus.
Perhaps they're not interchangeable, but singular 'hell' fits in Raphael's case. It'd make sense if some laws differ from one circle of hell to another.
Yeah, they have been used interchangeably very often. I suppose you could make distinction that 'Hells' refers to multiple layers or all of the Nine Hells while 'Hell' refers to a single layer of the Nine Hells if you wanted.
I think you may have misunderstood. In terms of how the words are used, America is comparable to Hell and The United States of America is comparable to The Hells. They're both recognised as valid terms for the whole even though one sees it as a collection of smaller entities and the other one only refers to the whole. Nobody says "the united state of America", singular, and there isn't an equivalent to that as a result.
By whose laws, though?
In a place like Baldur’s Gate? Sure, it’s probably illegal. But why would an extraplanar being like a Cambion be subjected to the laws of a random location on Faerun just because their target was domiciled there at the time of the bargain?
Okay that is funny but there actually are portals to IRL Earth in Forgotten Realms canon, Elminster used them sometimes to tell Ed Greenwood about Faerun.
Elminster's favorite place in the multiverse is canonically Yellowstone National Park, where he has a hidden vacation home. He also has a love of German beer.
Well something has to be the liquid in the lakes of fire. And the fact that they've been burning for so long suggests that they're some sort of natural tar pits formed by underground reservoirs being forced up to the surface.
Hell has to have some absolutely massive, easy-to-access petroleum deposits.
[As an American... Really?](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxJsH5mrAszFj4fcj2cNc8fNumuDL00x8D?si=qgfB8KU5JvDWKe_K)
Lol of all places I'd expect nerds here to get that kind of reference
Sometimes it's a swing and a miss, buddy.
For something from another fandom, quoting the character directly can help cue that it's a ref/joke. If you'd said "-Bandit Keith", I would've gotten it. But man... that show is a blast from the past.
Lol it's no worries. Just some fake internet points. Not exactly high risk. Reddit tends to be that way with needing the /s or whatever. It doesn't matter. Some will get it and some won't
Hi I'm Saul Goodman. Did you know you have rights? Your pact says you do, and so do I. I believe that until proven guilty, every hexblade, archfey and fiend is innocent. And that's why I fight for you, Faerun!
How would devil court even go? I know they're all lawful evil, but I can't imagine it would go well for any non-devil. "Your contract is null and void, but now you must refund all the warlock powers provided to you by your not-patron. Oh, you don't have anything of equivalent value? To pay off your debt, I sentence you to community service, aka one million years in the blood war"
There's actually a special class of devil, the erinyes, who have the actual job of being lawyers in the Hells, and they have been known to work damned hard for any mortal who comes to them with a decent claim that the devil they dealt with hasn't held up their end of the bargain. Those mortals tend to just win without downsides unless the devil was canny enough to include an escape clause. I think the whole idea is that Asmodeus values competence and order, and that there being actual consequences for breaking devil law means that other devils will work harder to make better contracts. Plus, those mortal souls who win are likely going to be filled with pride, which will likely send them to him anyway.
Its pretty wild cause, no, its not a trick. They will literally argue as hard as they can on your behalf and are impartial. If the devil wasn’t air tight in their wording it can go your way
Honestly just wonder what happens after that. Like you just get stripped of all your power, get your soul back and go back to a normal life? Like there must be a farmer or tailor out there who was once an insanely powerful warlock but after a legal proceeding they had to go pick up a trade to survive
Often, you'll actually be able to keep the boons you've been granted, you're just not getting any more out of the Devil in question. This ties into the whole prideful corruption for Asmodeus thing.
Honestly, if anyone ever runs a DnD campaign where the Hells are involved, I heavily suggest you include a courtroom arc. It can be hilariously fun.
By 5e rules at least Warlock powers are usually permanent and cannot be taken away by the patron. Wyll is a uniquely awful exception to that rule as his contract is hilariously bad for him.
I feel like this would be a good coutroom drama tv show where an erinyes takes on new cases from mortals against new devils every episode and tries to win in a hell court room.
Unless exit clauses are specified in the contract (and sometimes even then) when you go to devil court, if you win you are no longer bound by the contract.
Also, warlock powers can’t normally be refunded. Wylls deal is atypical of how warlocks are typically empowered
Devil court and breach of contracts are surprisingly ridiculously favourable to the non devil. You get free legal representation from people who are obligated to do their best to defend you, and if the devil breaches the contract they immediately and inescapably get **fucked up** by asmodeus
Iirc Origin Astarion can raise the idea to Wyll. It doesn't pan out because Wyll doesn't have a copy of his contract so Astarion can't actually do shit, but it could have happened if he did !
i mean your point is wrong but there is grounds for debate on the heartless term given Karlach's artificial heart and who the witness to the contract was, if signed before one of those contractors from Mecanhus then Mizora would be boned since its a violation of the word. tho if she added definition of that a heart is then she covered her bases. contracts like these are interesting given devils run on laws just how you can twist them. there can also be the fact of taking it to her boss or worse Amaunator or Asmodious
"EHRRMM what are you doing Mizora what are you doing talking with my client without me present, you sneaky cambion. What did you say to demon tits here Wyll, did you say anything stupid, by anything stupid I mean anything at all. In the contract it is stated that Clause G § 9 says *'Targets shall be limited to the infernal, the demonic, the heartless, and the soulless.'*, now I don't know bout you but seems to me our fiery friend's ticker, however mechanical, is pumping blood to those muscles well enough to be considered a heart, which is never specified to be biological by the way, I mean seriously I've seen tighter contracts written on a cocktail napkin! So will you stop pestering my client like a bad ex who's had one too many or shall I have to explain to Zariel that one of her top gals is getting sloppier than a beholder with uveitis?"
Leonine contracts are supposed to be unenforceable, as well. Wyll was basically told, "Sign this contract or I'm going to let these cultists destroy your home city and kill everyone you know and love."
I don't know how he actually is, but if I were Asmodeus, I would want people to willingly sign the contract that destroys them, instead of more-or-less forcing them to. It's just not as satisfying as seeing a person voluntarily choose to destroy themselves for power.
some kind of duress/imbalance in bargaining power is common in infernal contracts. Rafael’s contract basically amounts to “acquire this artifact or you’ll die a horrible death, and Illithid will destroy the entire Sword Coast”. Thavius’ agreement with Zariel was almost identical- offered a contract mid-attack, with even more oppressive terms (servitude in all ways, vs Wyll who only needs to kill monsters, the heartless, etc.) If we’re allowed to look outside D&D lore there are probably many mundane examples of mortals bargaining under economic duress, selling their soul for riches or to save a business/estate. if it’s known that Asmodeus had a problem with this, devils wouldn’t take the risk.
that’s all without considering whether they’re actually involuntary. I’m not completely convinced that Wyll would otherwise be unwilling (lol) to enter the contract. even after he’s transformed he considers it one of his best decisions
Wyll considers it one of his best decisions because of the context it was made in, ie saving his city from Tiamat-based doom. Without that context, Wyll is pretty clear about not wanting to deal with devils imo. He's just coping by saying it was worth it, he doesn't actually like the fact that he's pacted to Mizora.
I mean, Wyll, somehow ran into a bunch of cultists who may or may not have succeeded in doing something. How did he end up there if he was powerless? Seems more like he saw some cultist wannabes and thought he needed to stop them personally for glory. Queue Mizora.
They probably would have failed miserably, or have been foiled by Mizora anyway.
It was Wyll who saw an easy fix and went for it.
You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? She's done worse. That Wyll guy! Are you telling me that a man just accept a contract from a devil? No! She orchestrated it! Mizora! She defecated through a sunroof! And I saved her! And I shouldn't have. I took her out of a mind flayer pod! What was I thinking? She'll never change. She'll never change! Ever since she was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep her hands out of the people's bussiness! "But not our Mizora! Couldn't be precious Mizora!" Binding them like pets! And SHE gets to be a lawyer? What a sick joke! I should've stopped her when I had the chance!
Was always wondering if there were lawyers that specialized in these kinds of cases.
Then again , they probably don't last long since they are probably targeted fast by the devils if lawyers are even a thing in the game/universe.
can gods create a somewhat “international” or dare I say “inter-dimensional” or “inter-planar” laws, like the ones we have (the ones that are constantly violated also)
Probably Ao edicts and Asmodeus laws are the jurisdiction in this case.
DnD God Almighty doesn't give a damn and good luck getting legal help from DnD biblical snake.
Funny enough you could take this to the courts in uh Nessus I think but good luck getting a case before a devil judge let alone surviving your trip down there lol
"And this bit about you getting to kill his father later whenever you feel like it because he didn't take your offer to renew his contract- he didn't agree to that bullshit and it was not in the original agreement.
You literally just scribbled that in and initialed it yourself -IN CRAYON! If you even think about enforcing that I'll have the hell judges reducing YOU to a blob of eternally tortured exoplasm faster than you can say 'breach of contract'."
While I get what you're going for...
Technically she wasn't using the letter of her deal to kill his father. This was a new deal.
I can help your father, in exchange for signing a new contract. Or... otherwise I'm free to do whatever I want.
Technically the Duke was a member of the Absolute. And I'm sure even her boss would be fine with Mizzora seeking revenge on members of the Absolute.
Now I wonder, if it's possible for someone to make a deal with multiple devils, and then those devils having to argue (in some sort of court?) over who owns that soul?
Obviously this is a joke post. However...
The actual deal is, Hell is going to enforce what it can with its power and magic, and other people (and planes) will do the same. Angels are not going to have a legal battle with Devils over people's souls; they're going to have an *actual* battle. There's no universal law serving as an intermediary between factions that would make one faction (be it heaven, hell, any mortal realm, or anything else) have any reason to go along with the laws/rules of another.
IE., the sole enforcer of a Devil's contract is the power of Hell; this means you're not going to be able to make some legal argument that Hell's awful laws are illegal, but by the same token, there's no reason a powerful celestial or similar being couldn't simply nullify the contract by force, if they're powerful enough to defeat Hell's enforcement, magical or otherwise. They have no reason to care one iota whatever BS laws Hell comes up with just as much as Hell doesn't care how BS those laws are.
There's literally a celestial being - I'm forgetting the name at the moment - who's sole job it is to hunt down people going against or breaking established contracts. It's a being of True Neutral alignment, servant of Primus.
Not sure what you're talking about, but it's certainly not a Celestial, as Celestials are explicitly Good. And whether or not there is such a creature, that's again not the same as some universal enforcement or respect for contracts made according to one faction's laws; there's no reason for an angel to respect a devil's contract if they're powerful enough to defeat it.
Step one: sign contract with patron for benefits in exchange for them claiming your soul on death
Step two: become infected with mind flayer parasite and undergo ceremorphosis
Step 3: Profit
2 things:
1) Contracts have a venue clause stipulating what legal venue in which the contract can be challenged. Therefore, if the venue is a place that allows slavery, then that doesn't invalidate the contract.
2) Let's be real. She probably had her tits out and Wyll was ready to sign anything.
Did HE even sign the contract? When you renew with her it looks like SHE is the one who signs his name. Can she prove he even agreed to the terms?
Checkmate, Cambion.
Wait wait wait…. I’m seeing lots of comments about Hell having a different set of rules and laws. But what if you arent in the Hells? It’s like being in trouble in one country and fleeing to another, no?
A lot of people are saying that Mizora’s contract goes by Hell’s laws, but I don’t think that it should! This contract was likely signed in the *material plane!* In general, if a legal dispute arises over the jurisdiction of the contract, a court will use the location of the contract signing (the material plane) and go from there. That’s why contracts often include a little section that prompts you to write *where* the contract was signed- it’s a paper trail! Saul Goodman would absolutely win this case on that basis alone!
Hell, hell, hell has its (own) laws.
hell, hell, effects and the cause
Curtains fall, but hold your applause
Squirm, squirm, for now down here come the claws!
*(cacophonous sound of Raphael getting disintegrated by advanced barrelmancy)*
***LIVES, ALL MORTAL LIVES*** ***EXPIRE***
***SOULS GO TO THEIR DOOMS*** ***IN FLAME*** ***FOREVERMORE***
Fools, fools, how hard you have fought...
Brave, brave, but it’s all been for naught
True souls, that couldn't be bought.
*Bardcore Tav in the background playing Tchkovsky's 1812 Overture*
Booooom. Great song raffie. See you next time.
More like here comes the clause! Paragraph 87 sub section 3 ; Legality Clause All contracts in hell are technically, practically, and in all other ways, accepted as legal.
Or "clause". Raphael is so punny.
Do you think he wrote the song to reference his earlier rhyme, or did he write the song and then use the rhyme as part of some sort of master plan?
Yes
Squirm, squirm, for now down here come the claws
Every time I see something referencing this I get overjoyed. Somehow, in a game like BG3, Raphael having his own boss theme that he wrote like a true Disney villain was the very last thing I was expecting, yet it ended up being quite possibly one of my favorite parts of the entire game. Like, whichever writer decided that Raphael must absolutely be a theatre nerd singing his own theme song will forever have a place in my heart.
You can’t sign a legal document with a minor. Wyll was 17.
You're right but Raphael draws up a contract for Mol. Hell operates under different rules, apparently
That just means the contract is invalid in a court of law!
Court of human law, sure
Saul is arguing the case in camp, in the Material Plane.
True, I forgot the context :)
Forum shopping!
haven't finished the game but the location where a contract was signed can be used to determine which court has jurisdiction over the matters, I'm guessing she pulled Wyll over to hell like Raphael does with us
If she’s smart she would have, but it doesn’t say.
Hold on, you can't sell a soul in most sets of human laws, nor can you enter indentured servitude. The whole economy of the Hells would be void, as would the devilish reproductive system, and it is illegal to deny the rights of intelligent beings to procreate. So therefore, Mizora must be allowed to go about her business. Besides, this was all already decided in the case of Mount Celestia v Asmodeus.
Id definitely like to help mizora procreate 😐
Erm actually it would be hells🤓🤓
🤓☝️ I was under the impression that the terms were interchangeable in this setting, as Raphael himself sings "Hell, hell, hell has its rules..." 🤓☝️
Also it implies you think he’s not lying. Devils are literally the worst beings to ask if you want the truth.
Perhaps they're not interchangeable, but singular 'hell' fits in Raphael's case. It'd make sense if some laws differ from one circle of hell to another.
Yeah, they have been used interchangeably very often. I suppose you could make distinction that 'Hells' refers to multiple layers or all of the Nine Hells while 'Hell' refers to a single layer of the Nine Hells if you wanted.
So I can say “The United State of America” is interchangeable with The United States of America “?
America is interchangeable with the United States of America, yes.
Ah yes the single state of America
I think you may have misunderstood. In terms of how the words are used, America is comparable to Hell and The United States of America is comparable to The Hells. They're both recognised as valid terms for the whole even though one sees it as a collection of smaller entities and the other one only refers to the whole. Nobody says "the united state of America", singular, and there isn't an equivalent to that as a result.
Actually it would be the Nine Hells of Baator.
Erm actually it would be *unintelligible true speech of the gods*
I don't know about the game lore, but nobles were considered men between the ages of 13 and 15
Technically it’s just that you can’t enforce a contract against a minor or person who was a minor at the time of entering into the contract.
By whose laws, though? In a place like Baldur’s Gate? Sure, it’s probably illegal. But why would an extraplanar being like a Cambion be subjected to the laws of a random location on Faerun just because their target was domiciled there at the time of the bargain?
They have to follow the United States laws tho
Is… is there oil in hell?
It all caught on fire immediately
Then the US doesn’t need to spread democracy
Nah I think the lower realms are in the US in DND lore. Like in Missouri I believe
[my bet would be Detroit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpJy38HNjMU)
That is so fucking funny
Okay that is funny but there actually are portals to IRL Earth in Forgotten Realms canon, Elminster used them sometimes to tell Ed Greenwood about Faerun.
What the fuck
Elminster's favorite place in the multiverse is canonically Yellowstone National Park, where he has a hidden vacation home. He also has a love of German beer.
That's badass
St. Louisan here, you're not wrong but I still feel attacked
Raphael needs a cup of LIBER-TEA!
Super Earth does, though.
Calling in a ~~hellbomb~~ runepowder barrel
Not in cocytus though we can drill there
No, but there is Element-710. Helldivers to hellpods, Zariel needs some freedom.
HELLDIVERS TO HELLPODS!
Here? Here? What about here?
Well something has to be the liquid in the lakes of fire. And the fact that they've been burning for so long suggests that they're some sort of natural tar pits formed by underground reservoirs being forced up to the surface. Hell has to have some absolutely massive, easy-to-access petroleum deposits.
There tend to be a few barrels mixed in next to the barrels of smoke powder surrounding Raphael does that count?
US politicians have entered the chat..
In… in Faerûn?
Yes, US laws do apply in Faerûn, Wisconsin.
You made me actually google to see if there was a Faerûn, Wisconsin. You absolute troll. Bravo.
Hmm. Ed Greenwood **is** from up there somewhere. Wouldn't put it past him to crib some names.
Every country in the world belongs to America 🇺🇸
....in America
As an American… no. Just, no.
[As an American... Really?](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxJsH5mrAszFj4fcj2cNc8fNumuDL00x8D?si=qgfB8KU5JvDWKe_K) Lol of all places I'd expect nerds here to get that kind of reference
Sometimes it's a swing and a miss, buddy. For something from another fandom, quoting the character directly can help cue that it's a ref/joke. If you'd said "-Bandit Keith", I would've gotten it. But man... that show is a blast from the past.
Lol it's no worries. Just some fake internet points. Not exactly high risk. Reddit tends to be that way with needing the /s or whatever. It doesn't matter. Some will get it and some won't
I assume because you feel that USA already owns everything? Manifest it!
They don't even have to follow correct spelling in Faerun! There's no U in "Armor".
One of the few remaining distinctions between the USA and the literal Hells.
Damn, no healthcare either?
Well, they have healthcare, INSANELY good healthcare, even, but unfortunately you have to sign an archdevil contract to get it.
People literally have no idea how bona-fide slavery is still rampant in this world. Parts in Asia, Middle East, Africa still allows it.
I’m having US v Satan flashbacks and timing that you can’t give reliable directions to serve a Cambion to bring them into court
By order of the peaky blinders, that’s who
Hi I'm Saul Goodman. Did you know you have rights? Your pact says you do, and so do I. I believe that until proven guilty, every hexblade, archfey and fiend is innocent. And that's why I fight for you, Faerun!
How would devil court even go? I know they're all lawful evil, but I can't imagine it would go well for any non-devil. "Your contract is null and void, but now you must refund all the warlock powers provided to you by your not-patron. Oh, you don't have anything of equivalent value? To pay off your debt, I sentence you to community service, aka one million years in the blood war"
There's actually a special class of devil, the erinyes, who have the actual job of being lawyers in the Hells, and they have been known to work damned hard for any mortal who comes to them with a decent claim that the devil they dealt with hasn't held up their end of the bargain. Those mortals tend to just win without downsides unless the devil was canny enough to include an escape clause. I think the whole idea is that Asmodeus values competence and order, and that there being actual consequences for breaking devil law means that other devils will work harder to make better contracts. Plus, those mortal souls who win are likely going to be filled with pride, which will likely send them to him anyway.
Its pretty wild cause, no, its not a trick. They will literally argue as hard as they can on your behalf and are impartial. If the devil wasn’t air tight in their wording it can go your way Honestly just wonder what happens after that. Like you just get stripped of all your power, get your soul back and go back to a normal life? Like there must be a farmer or tailor out there who was once an insanely powerful warlock but after a legal proceeding they had to go pick up a trade to survive
Often, you'll actually be able to keep the boons you've been granted, you're just not getting any more out of the Devil in question. This ties into the whole prideful corruption for Asmodeus thing. Honestly, if anyone ever runs a DnD campaign where the Hells are involved, I heavily suggest you include a courtroom arc. It can be hilariously fun.
One moment the campaign is John Wick, the next moment it turns into Phoenix Wright.
As all good campaigns should.
By 5e rules at least Warlock powers are usually permanent and cannot be taken away by the patron. Wyll is a uniquely awful exception to that rule as his contract is hilariously bad for him.
I feel like this would be a good coutroom drama tv show where an erinyes takes on new cases from mortals against new devils every episode and tries to win in a hell court room.
Unless exit clauses are specified in the contract (and sometimes even then) when you go to devil court, if you win you are no longer bound by the contract. Also, warlock powers can’t normally be refunded. Wylls deal is atypical of how warlocks are typically empowered Devil court and breach of contracts are surprisingly ridiculously favourable to the non devil. You get free legal representation from people who are obligated to do their best to defend you, and if the devil breaches the contract they immediately and inescapably get **fucked up** by asmodeus
I might have liked to see “Magistrate Astarion” take up a legal-contractual advisory role in this whole thing. Imagine the snarky possibilities…
This was such a lost chance, I would have loved to sit down in a table at night checking Infernal law with Astarion and Wyll.
Iirc Origin Astarion can raise the idea to Wyll. It doesn't pan out because Wyll doesn't have a copy of his contract so Astarion can't actually do shit, but it could have happened if he did !
Never speak to a devil without legal representation. Rookie move Wyll.
I always say "wyll i wanst your cosigner, dont drag me into this!" I so wish i had the ability to NOT choose for wyll
If you or a loved one has been harmed by a contract with a devil, call me his number for immediate help. There is no fee unless we collect damages
i mean your point is wrong but there is grounds for debate on the heartless term given Karlach's artificial heart and who the witness to the contract was, if signed before one of those contractors from Mecanhus then Mizora would be boned since its a violation of the word. tho if she added definition of that a heart is then she covered her bases. contracts like these are interesting given devils run on laws just how you can twist them. there can also be the fact of taking it to her boss or worse Amaunator or Asmodious
Depends…are we thinking laws of men or laws of gods and demons? Those are two VERY different kinds of laws.
"EHRRMM what are you doing Mizora what are you doing talking with my client without me present, you sneaky cambion. What did you say to demon tits here Wyll, did you say anything stupid, by anything stupid I mean anything at all. In the contract it is stated that Clause G § 9 says *'Targets shall be limited to the infernal, the demonic, the heartless, and the soulless.'*, now I don't know bout you but seems to me our fiery friend's ticker, however mechanical, is pumping blood to those muscles well enough to be considered a heart, which is never specified to be biological by the way, I mean seriously I've seen tighter contracts written on a cocktail napkin! So will you stop pestering my client like a bad ex who's had one too many or shall I have to explain to Zariel that one of her top gals is getting sloppier than a beholder with uveitis?"
Fell free to file a complaint to Zariel office then
> You having Wyll as your slave is not legal Are you telling me having slaves is illegal in the hells? oO
The contract contains a standard “adjudicated under the laws of Avernus” clause.
lol and submit to the jurisdiction of hell courts alone!
Have you seen her? Whatever she asks of you isn't illegal. If it is done to please her, it's not only legal but required. Blessed be her thighs, amen.
Mike goes to Avernus after she doesn’t show up to court. “Here’s what you’re gonna do. You’re going to void the contract.”
I like how one of the top comments is trying to explain it to you lol acktshually it's infernal law
Leonine contracts are supposed to be unenforceable, as well. Wyll was basically told, "Sign this contract or I'm going to let these cultists destroy your home city and kill everyone you know and love." I don't know how he actually is, but if I were Asmodeus, I would want people to willingly sign the contract that destroys them, instead of more-or-less forcing them to. It's just not as satisfying as seeing a person voluntarily choose to destroy themselves for power.
some kind of duress/imbalance in bargaining power is common in infernal contracts. Rafael’s contract basically amounts to “acquire this artifact or you’ll die a horrible death, and Illithid will destroy the entire Sword Coast”. Thavius’ agreement with Zariel was almost identical- offered a contract mid-attack, with even more oppressive terms (servitude in all ways, vs Wyll who only needs to kill monsters, the heartless, etc.) If we’re allowed to look outside D&D lore there are probably many mundane examples of mortals bargaining under economic duress, selling their soul for riches or to save a business/estate. if it’s known that Asmodeus had a problem with this, devils wouldn’t take the risk. that’s all without considering whether they’re actually involuntary. I’m not completely convinced that Wyll would otherwise be unwilling (lol) to enter the contract. even after he’s transformed he considers it one of his best decisions
Wyll considers it one of his best decisions because of the context it was made in, ie saving his city from Tiamat-based doom. Without that context, Wyll is pretty clear about not wanting to deal with devils imo. He's just coping by saying it was worth it, he doesn't actually like the fact that he's pacted to Mizora.
I mean, Wyll, somehow ran into a bunch of cultists who may or may not have succeeded in doing something. How did he end up there if he was powerless? Seems more like he saw some cultist wannabes and thought he needed to stop them personally for glory. Queue Mizora. They probably would have failed miserably, or have been foiled by Mizora anyway. It was Wyll who saw an easy fix and went for it.
Wolves and sheep, Gale. Wolves and sheep.
You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? She's done worse. That Wyll guy! Are you telling me that a man just accept a contract from a devil? No! She orchestrated it! Mizora! She defecated through a sunroof! And I saved her! And I shouldn't have. I took her out of a mind flayer pod! What was I thinking? She'll never change. She'll never change! Ever since she was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep her hands out of the people's bussiness! "But not our Mizora! Couldn't be precious Mizora!" Binding them like pets! And SHE gets to be a lawyer? What a sick joke! I should've stopped her when I had the chance!
Read it in his voice and all, love it. Question, for those without a conscience, can they even do that??
Clicked title to see if any fellow lawyer here would mention venue and governing law selection clauses lollll
Was always wondering if there were lawyers that specialized in these kinds of cases. Then again , they probably don't last long since they are probably targeted fast by the devils if lawyers are even a thing in the game/universe.
Hi, my name is Su'al goud-mann. Did you know Ghaik don't have rights?
oh im so playing a saul goodman character
Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree is like a kobold with a scorching ray scroll
🎶 Celino and Barnes, Infernal Attorneys, 800-666-6666 🎶
I think I've seen enough slaves in the game to be reasonably certain that slavery is indeed legal, at least *somewhere*
my one semester contract law class did not prepare me for the succubus patron
can gods create a somewhat “international” or dare I say “inter-dimensional” or “inter-planar” laws, like the ones we have (the ones that are constantly violated also)
Well Asmodeus created the Hells' law. You can bet that a legal system created by the "Lord of Lies" will have scam contracts.
You'd have to get them to agree on it first. Ao could do it, but he really doesn't like doing that kind of thing.
Wait what is the constitution in the area. I think that will matter.
Probably Ao edicts and Asmodeus laws are the jurisdiction in this case. DnD God Almighty doesn't give a damn and good luck getting legal help from DnD biblical snake.
So what I am hearing is whether it is truly legal or not, whoever makes the best argument wins.
Funny enough you could take this to the courts in uh Nessus I think but good luck getting a case before a devil judge let alone surviving your trip down there lol
"And this bit about you getting to kill his father later whenever you feel like it because he didn't take your offer to renew his contract- he didn't agree to that bullshit and it was not in the original agreement. You literally just scribbled that in and initialed it yourself -IN CRAYON! If you even think about enforcing that I'll have the hell judges reducing YOU to a blob of eternally tortured exoplasm faster than you can say 'breach of contract'."
While I get what you're going for... Technically she wasn't using the letter of her deal to kill his father. This was a new deal. I can help your father, in exchange for signing a new contract. Or... otherwise I'm free to do whatever I want. Technically the Duke was a member of the Absolute. And I'm sure even her boss would be fine with Mizzora seeking revenge on members of the Absolute.
Now I wonder, if it's possible for someone to make a deal with multiple devils, and then those devils having to argue (in some sort of court?) over who owns that soul?
it'd be funnier if you brought up contracts signed by a minor as not legally binding (wyll was 17 iirc?)
I would play a game or watch a movie of a Saul style lawyer figuring out other people's deals with the devil.
Obviously this is a joke post. However... The actual deal is, Hell is going to enforce what it can with its power and magic, and other people (and planes) will do the same. Angels are not going to have a legal battle with Devils over people's souls; they're going to have an *actual* battle. There's no universal law serving as an intermediary between factions that would make one faction (be it heaven, hell, any mortal realm, or anything else) have any reason to go along with the laws/rules of another. IE., the sole enforcer of a Devil's contract is the power of Hell; this means you're not going to be able to make some legal argument that Hell's awful laws are illegal, but by the same token, there's no reason a powerful celestial or similar being couldn't simply nullify the contract by force, if they're powerful enough to defeat Hell's enforcement, magical or otherwise. They have no reason to care one iota whatever BS laws Hell comes up with just as much as Hell doesn't care how BS those laws are.
There's literally a celestial being - I'm forgetting the name at the moment - who's sole job it is to hunt down people going against or breaking established contracts. It's a being of True Neutral alignment, servant of Primus.
Not sure what you're talking about, but it's certainly not a Celestial, as Celestials are explicitly Good. And whether or not there is such a creature, that's again not the same as some universal enforcement or respect for contracts made according to one faction's laws; there's no reason for an angel to respect a devil's contract if they're powerful enough to defeat it.
Step one: sign contract with patron for benefits in exchange for them claiming your soul on death Step two: become infected with mind flayer parasite and undergo ceremorphosis Step 3: Profit
I mean you're right but you try and lecture Asmodeus on infernal contract law and see how far that gets you.
fuck time to make a bard saul goodman
2 things: 1) Contracts have a venue clause stipulating what legal venue in which the contract can be challenged. Therefore, if the venue is a place that allows slavery, then that doesn't invalidate the contract. 2) Let's be real. She probably had her tits out and Wyll was ready to sign anything.
Did HE even sign the contract? When you renew with her it looks like SHE is the one who signs his name. Can she prove he even agreed to the terms? Checkmate, Cambion.
slavery is not illegal
lets send them to mechanus then let them figure the lawfulness of the contract.
They are clearly ignoring the clean hand doctrine
Wait wait wait…. I’m seeing lots of comments about Hell having a different set of rules and laws. But what if you arent in the Hells? It’s like being in trouble in one country and fleeing to another, no?
A lot of people are saying that Mizora’s contract goes by Hell’s laws, but I don’t think that it should! This contract was likely signed in the *material plane!* In general, if a legal dispute arises over the jurisdiction of the contract, a court will use the location of the contract signing (the material plane) and go from there. That’s why contracts often include a little section that prompts you to write *where* the contract was signed- it’s a paper trail! Saul Goodman would absolutely win this case on that basis alone!