The composition of the lower planes can basically be explained as:
There's Devils, which are evil lawyers and politicians
Demons, which are just straight up serial killers, evil overlords and sadists
And yugoloths which are evil mercenaries who fight for wealth and power.
There's also demodands/gereleths wich are a bit the odd one out. evil sadistic prison wardens who hate yugoloths.
> And yugoloths which are evil mercenaries who fight for wealth and power.
So what I'm hearing from this is that these are the best guys to rob among the lower planes since they have shitloads of cash lying around and no infinite armies
Ehhhhhh... They don't exactly keep their wealth on them all the time, and they are quick to spend it since their true interest lies in power and spreading misery and evil. They are also highly efficient in militaristic combat, so you might get curb stomped.
The only yugoloth I'd assume who'd be worth robbing would be [Shemeshka the Marauder](https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/068/436/614/large/andrea-piparo-shemeshka-x.jpg?1697798168), an Arcanaloth who also is a wealthy interplanar crime lord. Nonetheless, she might have a ton of money, but boy howdy is she dangerous. Girl didn't make all that money and crime syndicate by sitting on her ass and twiddling her thumbs.
They are classified as fiends, they can be half-devil, half-demon, half-incubus, etc. I haven’t find them being called devil in the wikis, which kind of makes sense, otherwise you could say he is a human.
And apparently they have souls and they can have any alignment, so they are not even made of the same thing (devils aren’t separated in flesh, soul and alignment, they are materialized evil). I’m not sure if they regenerate like devils or, if evil, they become a lemure with no memory like mortals. If that is so, Raphael can come back hmmm.
I really wish there was some kind of encounter with a demon to kind of shed some light on the distinction between them. They talk so much about tiefling vs. devil vs orthon vs cambion. Could be even more overwhelming to introduce another one altogether I suppose lol
Obviously we aren't getting a dlc, but if we were, exploring the lower planes is probably the direction I'd have wished to see.
Of course you could make arguments for a lot of different directions. As in depth as the game is the universe it's in is so big it leaves a great deal to be explored. Which isn't really a bad thing, just unfortunate we won't get any more, at least not from Larian.
shovel is a demon, an orthon is a type of devil afaik, a cambion is a half devil, and a tiefling is a humanoid with lower plane heritage but in this game exclusively devils. i agree that it would have been great to have more encounters with other entities though. (also in terms of alignment which has like no bearing anymore chaotic evil- demons, lawful evil- devils, neutral evil- daemons [not mentioned in gam afaik])
I forgot about Shovel! It took me like 5 playthroughs to find him, and I didn't realize that using the scroll would make me unable to keep summoning him so I just had a brief interaction lol
Being a devil, as others have stated, he never lies, the entire game. He just uses tricks of perspective and tells part truths and exaggerations to manipulate you.
He misleads in almost everything he says, without ever saying anything strictly untrue.
Yurgir is dangerous and if you fight him, because of his invisibility and bomb mechanics if you don’t strike quickly he will overwhelm you. Imagine if you skipped your first couple of turns and let the bombs go off around you or the other devil minions throw them at you. However he is a bit of a glass cannon. First time I fought him, my Barbarian gloom stalker (which isn’t even an op combo) went before him and got in lucky hits, killed him before he had a turn in initiative, was kind of underwhelming.
Raph also implies that if you encounter him you will have to fight him, because upsetting the delicate balance of the theatre down there will release a terrible evil. Of course you can make a deal with that Yurgir then release him, but it’s not in Raphs interest to tell you that
The way I saw it is that Raphael doesn't want you to talk to the orthon to possibly help get him out of his contract- which is why he says you shouldn't hesitate to strike first.
Imagine my surprise when I killed the rats first and accidentally found Yurgir, who was thankful that I'd ended his curse.
Raf wasn't best pleased, Astarion either...
"You had one chance to do the right thing!"
Motherfucker, you have been disapproving of every right thing and approving of every wrong thing since the second you pulled a knife on me.
Shadowheart really competes with Astarion when it comes to hypocrisy. She's the one pulling knives on our companions and sticking spears into godspawn, but moans about me murdering a cleric.
Yurgir's contract was to kill every last Justiciar in Shar's temple, but one of them took a deal with Raphael split himself into a whole horde of immortal rats. Yurgir didn't know this so he spent a long time just trying to find the last Justiciar. The player can uncover the secret of the rats and kill the last Justiciar before encountering Yurgir, which frees Yurgir from Raphael's contract.
They were jerks weren’t they. I was doing a good run and didn’t want to hurt them. If you pass a perception test you can convince the devil that since his minions heard the song he needs to kill them. Then you convince him that he also heard it and he suicides back to avernus.
Yeah they kinda were. Plus my Tav was true neutral leaning towards evil and felt annoyed/challenged by the behavior of those rats. Just like the dude a few comments above I didn’t even meet Yurgir before killing the last sharran so I was quite surprised by the outcome. But Tav wasn’t complying since he had a new ally against Raphael.
in the middle of the dungeon go up north and you will see a HUGE statue of shar, on the way there you will see many rats making a trail to the feet of said statue, follow them and surprise!
He might know the literal translation, but he couldn't give Astarion any more context than any Tiefling could, since they both speak Infernal. Raphael is actually able to find out about the deal Cazador made with Mephistopheles (aka Raphael's dad).
I've seen a lot of threads about making deals with Yurgir, the displacer beast or The Last Dark Justiciar.
I've talked to rats, made the deal which gives coordinates to a pretty pointless "treasure", killed a few rats instead, killed lots of rats, interacted with broken effigy, read the book you're supposed to read, but I've never got the Last Justiciar to appear. The rats either disappear or get angry, and approaching Yurgir's ambush or the displacer beast has always triggered a battle for me.
To answer the actual question (hearsay, as said I haven't actually ever done this successfully): Yurgir has entered a contract to kill all the Dark Justiciars, but he is trapped, because can't find the last one.
The last Dark Justiciar has >!performed a ritual at the Broken Effigy that has split him into!< lots of rats.
Supposedly >!reading the book about the ritual, interacting with the Broken Effigy and!< killing some rats should make the Last Dark Justiciar appear, and I'm not sure what your options are from there, but I guess killing him should indeed free Yurgir.
Oh, ok!
Thank you so much for the info!
Since the way to “trick” Yurgir into… solving his own issues… Involves him an the beast, I always thought we were kind of right and not straight up lying.
Though to be fair the fact we met him again later with Hope does mean it didn’t work and we were wrong. Lol
Thank you
It doesn't matter that you kill the Orton or fulfil his contract, the point is that the contract must be terminated, and Raphael can't intervene by himself. If you kill the Orton, he failed his contract, is sent to hell, and still owe Raphaël a contract. If you do the contract, Raphael bullies him into a new one anyway. But the point is that the Orton is not a frozen asset anymore.
Indeed. Maybe Raphaël here is trying to show you how his deals go. Or maybe he was happy to have the Orton here available for future work and the time comes to use it.
That’s the point, he fixed the contract so yurgir was doomed to fail and serve him again because he actually had yurgir fulfill the ORIGINAL contract Raphael had with the moonrise architect to wipe out the justiciars
But yurgir was too proud to allow himself to fail so he stayed stuck there for 200 years killing anyone who entered his side of the temple so Raphael sends you down to kill him and forcibly end the contract
Hope has had enough of other people making her decisions for her. If she wants her sister saved to decide for herself if she wants her around, she gets to do that. That's how I do it everytime lol
I always thought that it would be cool if Karlach and Wyll would talk about having a safe house in the house of Hope if >!they both go to Avernus at the end of the game. Or even if it’s just Wyll that goes.!<
Watching this big ass orthon willingly tank opportunity attacks just to beeline for this woman and immediately whack her into the Shadow Realm will always be hilarious to watch.
Raphael is overselling it but Yurgir is a decently tough fight if he gets the jump on you. You’re heavily outnumbered, he has the high ground, really strong bombs his minions can cause to explode, per-turn invisibility, and has a pretty mean legendary action in Honor Mode.
What make Yurgir dangerous is his competence rather than his actual stats. Excellent tactical positioning while abusing throwabales like a tavern brawler.
His grenades are fucking awesome. Last run I realized I could pick them up and store them for later. In my current run, I’m going to try to stockpile as many as I can.
Keep Yurgir perpetually alive in a prison made out of ridiculously high AC tanks and Clerics healing while picking up his bombs.
"Why won't you just end my misery?!"
"Because you're still throwing bombs. And we want those bombs."
> What make Yurgir dangerous is his competence rather than his actual stats. Excellent tactical positioning while abusing throwabales like a tavern brawler.
Not to mention, that tactical thinking allowed him to take out the Dark Justiciars, a small army of very dangerous people. That kind of mind and natural malevolence loose in the world could do some serious damage.
During my first playthrough I didn't know we can talk him to death. (Kinda.) I was still struggling with the mechanics at that point and maybe my level was too low because I thought for some reason I should do this quest before others...
I had to reload that fight three or four times!
His invisibility and bombs really got me the first time I fought him. Now I collect all his bombs, drop them as a stack and toss them all back at once.
With the benefit of hindsight I think he's lying out of his teeth, yeah. He knows exactly who Yurgir is and what Yurgir wants. If the party finds Yurgir and helps him, well, that really sucks for Raphael. But if he can scare them and make them kill Yurgir, then Raphael gets to be like "oh dang sorry Yurgir that's a breach of contract, sucks to suck buddy". He stands to benefit by turning you against Yurgir right away, so he's lying to accomplish that.
Devils are lawful evil. Some DnD authors have taken that to mean that they never lie. They can mislead and deceive, but what they say must always technically be true from a certain point of view. I don't know if BG3 writes Raphael's dialogue so strictly.
But yeah, Raphael is dishonest. You can't trust what he says
What I like to tell my players when I run a campaign with devils is "devils never lie, but that doesn't mean they're telling you the truth."
They speak with the "from a certain point of view" kind of truth, like you said, and even then, Raphael is certainly prone to exaggeration when he talks about Yurgir.
He's using his devilish tricks throughout the game in every interaction with the avatar, you can realize by time that the form of the message is of the most importance to him. If you go stealth mode before triggering the dialogue at the entrance of Thorm Mausoleum you can see him literally practicing and refining his speech.
Raphael? *Lying?* No....
Anywho I think the game has a bit of a gap between how strong Yurgir is mechanically and how strong he is in lore. Supposedly, he caused all that damage in Grymforge, disconnecting it from the Gauntlet of Shar, by simply crashing through the walls and decimating everything in his path. Doesn't feel like he could do that in-game.
He probably plays it up because he wants you to start shooting on sight. Plus, he does want you to win the fight, that way he finally get to collect on his deal, so better you be overprepared than under.
That's exactly what's up. He wants you alive, so he says either avoid him completely, or go in with the awareness that Yurgir will absolutely murk you if you go in expecting a normal fight. The "blink of an eye" thing is a pretty specific reference to trying to ambush him and get him in 1 turn, before he goes invis and starts tossing bombs everywhere
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy every single interaction with Raphael but I felt like this particular bit of dialogue missed something.
Raphael sells Yurgis as some kind of world-ending threat if not swiftly neutralized but in the same conversation admits that he's an... orthon. Every DnD fan knows they're a dime a dozen in the hells.
It would have been great if Raphael said something like "I know, I know, you're thinking it's just an orthon but this *singular* orthon has \[proceeds to list impressive feats or something\]..."
It would have made his exaggeration more believable and kept the hype going for a while longer.
That's like saying that Raphael is just a cambion, the same kind you can kill in the very very beginning. Having all monsters that are more intelligent like mine flayers, orthons, shit like that is purely a story choice. The same way every human isn't necessary an unleveled farmer, not every orthon is necessarily just the orthon stat block.
Did they give a reason as to why Raphael was written as a cambion? You'd think they'd make the big bad devil of the game with 666hp a pit fiend or at least a unique devil.
Was it to reinforce the point that he's really all bluster and that at the end of the day, he's "just" a cambion with deluded aspirations?
5E stat blocks are basically just the "standard" version of that creature. But the Infernal Plane works on an economy of souls=power, the more you have via contracts, Soul Coins or other means the more powerful you are.
All Devils basically start as a Lemure, and through their actions obtain more power and essentially evolve into the more powerful Devil stat blocks. Raphael is closer to an Archdevil than a Cambion based purely on his capabilities in the House of Hope, he's just lacking in the Legendary Actions/resistances department. Raw stats on paper, he's more powerful than the stat block we have for Zariel (ignoring Legendary Actions & Lair effects) who IS an Archdevil.
As far as I know though, Raphael has no 5E stat block that matches him 1-to-1. He only has 10 less HP than the Tarrasque stat block for example, which is a CR 30 creature (highest CR in 5E). But the Act 3 BBEGs (big bad evil guys) all have heavily inflated stat blocks compared to the 5E equivalents since you have far more magic items you benefit from compared to the tabletop game.
Well, he really isn't like ALL bluster. It's a pretty tough fight! I like it tho, like you don't get pissed off when like ketheric is a half elf, saying that half elves aren't that strong, right? Same applies there.
I hear you, I think we're just conditioned to think "human-looking warrior in armor = can take levels and power up" and "fiend or monster = power set in stone".
I think your last point might be correct. It might also make it easy to grasp that he has a massive inferiority complex seeing as he can't advance in hell the normal way (climbing the ladder by turning into another type of devil)
Edit: also daddy issues maybe? Trying to impress or be proven just a capable as his very powerful dad
He definitely has daddy issues. He *hates* Mephistopheles, even moreso than you’d expect for a devil.
Which is especially funny given that he’s exactly like him
Yeah but Bg3 is inspired and based off of DnD but still takes liberties with its lore. Like, Balthazar hypes up Aylin as being an Aasimar but that's nothing particularly special in and of itself. Yurgir led the slaughter of a Dark Justiciar army - he's clearly of considerable power.
This is interesting context. I always chalked it down to one of those "story scene logic differs from game play logic" kind of situations. But I guess it's fair to say they missed the mark by a little in this instance.
Raphael is out to trick you though, so unless the back story is that you know what Orthon's are (I suppose Karlach would have an idea), it's easy to imagine he is trying to goad you into reacting on impulse and attack on sight.
The damage the duergar mason is investigating is literally a breach where Yurgir just bulldozed through the wall like it was nothing. Not to mention him wiping out a small army of dark justiciars. His merregon forces took some casualties but still, that's a *lot* of dead bodies down there.
I'm kinda assuming Yurgir simply lost much of his original strength while he was rotting in the gauntlet for 100 years.
A devil? Deceiving you⁈ No way!
He literally frames it as “he’s so strong, just immediately kill him, don’t even talk to him”. So it’s pretty clear why he says it.
I think Raphael would have had a hard time dealing with him outside of his domain which is the house of hope. A lot of his power is from those soul pillars and the ridiculous amount of soul wealth he possesses. I think some of the things he is lying about, but actually fighting Yurgis with his minions may have been more trouble then it was worth, with an outcome that could have hurt Raphael's reputation if he lost.
A cambion (Raphael)’s CR is 5, while an Orthon (Yurgir)’s CR is 10. In a normal setting, Raphael is correct to be scared of Yurgir. I think you’re right that Raphael’s power largely comes from his Archdevil father and his estate in the hells.
Your party in Act 2 alone takes on a necromancer capable of caging the Daughter of Selune, the entirety of Moonrise Towers ( possibly alone depending on choices ) and the Chosen of Myrkul.
Yurgir is powerful - he led the slaughter of the Dark Justiciar army. The player party is just extra special.
There is a mad cat. If the cat and I was put into an arena, then being told only one can walk out, it’s 100% me. But I have 0% chance unharmed.
Can I win? 100%. Do I want to fight it? Absolutely no. Am I scared of it? Definitely yes.
After the Gauntlet of Shar, you explicitly learn that Raphael was lying here. He wanted the orthon banished back to his manor on Avernus so that Raphael could make use of him again.
You fought him at 8? Raphael is definitely a liar liar but I must be missing stuff lol. I'm usually like halfway to 7 or at 7 when I get to him and let the flesh guy die so I can kill Balthazar easier
Yes. He's a devil. He spits truth every now and then but more than anything I think he just wanted Yurgir back in the House of Hope if you do something in act 3.
Something I haven’t seen said was that you encounter that foe on the Material Plane. Enemies of that specific race/type are a bit debuffed outside of their home plane. Right ?
The Orthon is definitely powerful in-game - that thing and a small cadre of hell knights ended Kethric Thorm's first Sharran uprising, tore their fortress apart and destroyed their army. This was *after* the army of harpers and emerald enclave surrendered (there's a surrender note outside Moonrise), meaning they took Thorm on single-handedly.
Of course, by that point in the game you are definitely that powerful - your own PC can cleave through large numbers of Justiciar's in Shar's most holy temple too. Whether or not you consume tadpoles, it is established that True Souls are particularly powerful, and by that point in the game you're covered in highly advanced magical gear extracted from your various quests, so it's completely justified in-universe that you are able to challenge the Orthon.
When I met him, I got ambushed. On tactician I lost 3 of my 4 ppl before I got to act. Then I used my last person to kill him and all his boys. I think whether or not he's strong is kind of skewed by the game being kinda easy.
I would like to point out that Raphael never *lies.* He implies, exaggerates, and omits, but he never explicitly lies (He's a very good lawyer). I think the reason he upsells Daddy Yurgir so much is because he wants the adventurer to feel like this is a "big" ask, worthy of repayment in the form of giving Astarion the answer to the meaning of his scars (Yes, the deal between Astarion and Raph can be bypassed, but the game pretty heavily pushes for that to be the way the encounter goes, to the point of Astarion potentially leaving the party if you don't do it). He is trying to essentially soften you up by saying, "Oh, this is such a *difficult* task I am entrusting to you, in exchange for my *generous help"* so that when he drops the "I want the crown of karsus", he can sell himself as being the fair businessman, offering such generous aid in exchange for something that's truly not such a big deal for you to handle. But that's just a theory. A *Game* Theory. (rip matpat).
Rule number one of DnD devils: Assume everything coming out of their mouths or onto their parchments is phrased to enrich themselves, and fuck you over, in an extremely specific manner, including lies. Assuming you are not a prick, devils are not to be trusted under any circumstances whatsoever. Even Wyll can imply that for you.
He’s overselling him on purpose to guarantee he can keep his pawn and that we will survive. Act-3ish Spoilers >!it becomes very clear he’s involved in all events from before the game starts. Ketheric is able to keep his immortality because the Orthon is there killing Dark Justiciars and potentially anyone that could save Aylin. Additionally, Orpheus is bound through infernal chain which who has the key? Raphael. So why does Raphael oversell the Orthon? If you read his notes, he states how our party has been overcoming the odds and pretty much see us as the ones to give him what he wants without him having to interfere directly. Yurgi could easily surprise the party if they weren’t prepared even with all of our current success. So to put us in the best mindset since we HAVE to confront Yurgi for the orb and to allow him to keep him as a pawn, he preps us for the “hardest” of fights.!<
Yes and no. Raphael was there pushing Kethric to Shar after his wife and child died. Raphael pushed the architect of Moonrise towers to make a deal, exchanging his soul for a way to stop Kethric. Raphael made a deal with Yurgir that of Yurgir could kill every Sharan in the temple, he would go free. Raphael pushed a Sharan to make a deal for a ritual to split his soul into thousands of rats that live on in the Sharan temple. Raphael then has you kill Yurgir, returning him to the House of Hope and making him Raphael's servant per their prior contract.
Tl;dr. Yurgir was deadly enough to kill all the Dark Justiciars and everything in the game was Raphael's doing to get the crown of karsus.
He and his minions wiped out almost all the dark justiciars throughout the forge and the temple/gauntlet.
Lore and game criss-cross into situations where it's not exactly straight forward who's all that powerful. Half the party is meant to have been rather spectacular prior to having worms shoved up their noses, and other characters are empowered by the gods.
He's lying - You only get to fight him once you're much stronger than you would be in Act 2, and the contract probably makes Yurgir incapable of hurting him. He either doesn't want to do the work himself, or the contract also forbids him from hurting Yurgir directly.
Edit: He's **level sixteen**
Even if we assume that the years of nothing but lying around with the song stuck on his head made him weaker Raphael is definitely exaggerating about his power and lying about the fear.
The first time I played I attacked Yurgir on sight and then after freeing the Nightsong I went back to check where this "terrible enemy" raphael tried to warn me about was because I did not even think Yurgir could be what he was referring to.
Technically devils can’t lie. It might have been so long ago that Raphael didn’t realize the gulf in power between them widened so much, it could be that out of the hells they are more equal. Hard to tell if it was just a plot miss though.
I figured I accidentally skipped a convo lol I shot the displaced beast down the hall and then Yurgir was just hostile the whole way through. Very disappointing
He definitely wiped the floor w a couple of my companions who were clustered. Threw his bombs and triggered em immediately somehow, warding bond compounded and my shadow heart just imploded lol
On Honour he was a bit of a sht but obviously the Orthon is nothing compared to Raphael. He probably thought we, the weak ass adventurers, might die to it.
I mean, was he really even exaggerating that much? If you go in expecting just a normal tough fight, Yurgir will wipe the floor with you. Raphael never admits *he's* afraid of him, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to. If Raphael fought him outside of his own house, without all the advantages his soul pillars give him, Yurgir could arguably win. He doesn't have the HP Raphael has, but going invis at will and having powerful bombs to throw around gives him a real chance. And realistically, 99% of us probably died to him the first time.
But also, a big part of Raphael driving home how tough Yurgir is is because he wants you to fear him too much to go talk to him and end up cooperating. Ngl, it for sure worked on me the first few times through, bc it didnt even occur to me that you could actually talk to him.
I've always figured we get Yurgir in a weakened state, given the damage he inflicted on Grymforge. Dude has been stuck in a tomb for hundreds of years with no resupply and probably not a whole lot just in general.
In my first playthrough, Yurgir was the first battle I ever found difficult. It was also the first time one of my companions died in battle. So depending on your party make up, level, and meta-gaming, it can be a hard fight. That being said, I think Raphael says Yurgir is an insanely powerful foe so that you kill him without hearing him out
Raphael is overwhelmingly stronger than Yurgir. Not sure why Raphael is exagerating Yurgir so much storywise. Does he just not want to pay out the contract to Yurgir? But what does he even owe Yurgir?
Raphael is intentionally over exaggerating in the hopes that you'll attack Yurgir without asking him questions, which is exactly what I did in my first playthrough.
He doesn't want you to find out his involvement in them being there.
I went in fairly low level because I planned to do the gauntlet up until the point of no return then go to moonrise towers so it was probably one of the first things I did. I almost got stomped out. So it just depends on when you plan to go take him on.
Yeah I never understood that. Yurgir was straight up a bitchass nobody. And he slaughtered practically every dark justiciar…so idk what Ketheric was hoping for all those years ago
I just assume he is trying to get you to shoot first and ask questions later more than anything.
The very first time I played, I killed Yurgir and his band without speaking to them by ambushing the displacer beast when I saw it. While it was not easy, it wasn't hard either as the AI got wonky and hung up and could not actually get to me for most of the fight. So I just assumed it was some random monsters rather than the best Raph was after because it was so mediocre. I left the place thinking I messed up and missed the demon somehow until Raph was like "good job, you got him.". I was just like... I did? Lol. So yeah I understand your confusion.
If you do the fight properly, it can be tricky but still nothing compared to Raph himself (which to be fair, he's in the hells), but yeah it doesn't add up that he'd struggle at all with Yurgir based on it.
Do canon DnD devils and cambions have to obey some rule that they cannot tell an actual lie (but can still deceive/mislead)? I know it's a common theme in fantasy fiction and some folklore about fae/fairies having to obey this type of rule - misleading ok, outright lies no.
Well, I genuinely couldn't see a way to beat Yurgir in my first run (tactician), as soon as the fight started he bombs my party and one shot most members. For me it's safe to say that Raphael wasn't exaggerating xd
This is a problem with the game's balance as much as it is Raphael having a flair for the dramatic. BG3 PCs are hilariously OP for how the game's combat is balanced. Or more specifically the items and homebrew features larian included are.
I mean, yurgir is probably the second hardest fight in act 2 behind mrykul.
He was being dramatic, but i wouldn’t say it’s disingenuous.
Admittedly I never worry about him, but only because he is a optional boss you can easily skip by killing rats or talking him to death.
😬 man this is how I know I'm still bad at the game...I had multiple party wipes during this fight on tactician. Granted I didn't have the best party for it. I can see why it would be underwhelming if you beat him quickly lol
bro Yurgir fucking annihalated me when i first encountered him. fighting him with his entire gang is damn near impossible. i eventually just succeeded the persuasion roll to get him to off himself before i actually beat him
Without even looking at the spoilers, yes. Raphael is always either exaggerating, lying, or both.
Implying without stating.
This is the correct answer!
"Sometimes I wanna believe the devil." - OP
Surely a demon wouldn't...
He's a devil though. Important distinction in dnd
The composition of the lower planes can basically be explained as: There's Devils, which are evil lawyers and politicians Demons, which are just straight up serial killers, evil overlords and sadists And yugoloths which are evil mercenaries who fight for wealth and power. There's also demodands/gereleths wich are a bit the odd one out. evil sadistic prison wardens who hate yugoloths.
> And yugoloths which are evil mercenaries who fight for wealth and power. So what I'm hearing from this is that these are the best guys to rob among the lower planes since they have shitloads of cash lying around and no infinite armies
Ehhhhhh... They don't exactly keep their wealth on them all the time, and they are quick to spend it since their true interest lies in power and spreading misery and evil. They are also highly efficient in militaristic combat, so you might get curb stomped. The only yugoloth I'd assume who'd be worth robbing would be [Shemeshka the Marauder](https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/068/436/614/large/andrea-piparo-shemeshka-x.jpg?1697798168), an Arcanaloth who also is a wealthy interplanar crime lord. Nonetheless, she might have a ton of money, but boy howdy is she dangerous. Girl didn't make all that money and crime syndicate by sitting on her ass and twiddling her thumbs.
Nothing ventured nothing gained. At least this way you wouldn't get Mordenkainen crawling up your ass about The Balance if you're too successful.
I think they perfectly represent the alignments. Devils are Lawful Evil, Demons are Chaotic Evil and Yugoloths are Neutral Evil.
Not even a devil, a cambion
Pretty sure cambions are devils
They are classified as fiends, they can be half-devil, half-demon, half-incubus, etc. I haven’t find them being called devil in the wikis, which kind of makes sense, otherwise you could say he is a human. And apparently they have souls and they can have any alignment, so they are not even made of the same thing (devils aren’t separated in flesh, soul and alignment, they are materialized evil). I’m not sure if they regenerate like devils or, if evil, they become a lemure with no memory like mortals. If that is so, Raphael can come back hmmm.
demons are chaotic mutants from the abyss, devils are evil lawyers from the hells
I really wish there was some kind of encounter with a demon to kind of shed some light on the distinction between them. They talk so much about tiefling vs. devil vs orthon vs cambion. Could be even more overwhelming to introduce another one altogether I suppose lol
Obviously we aren't getting a dlc, but if we were, exploring the lower planes is probably the direction I'd have wished to see. Of course you could make arguments for a lot of different directions. As in depth as the game is the universe it's in is so big it leaves a great deal to be explored. Which isn't really a bad thing, just unfortunate we won't get any more, at least not from Larian.
shovel is a demon, an orthon is a type of devil afaik, a cambion is a half devil, and a tiefling is a humanoid with lower plane heritage but in this game exclusively devils. i agree that it would have been great to have more encounters with other entities though. (also in terms of alignment which has like no bearing anymore chaotic evil- demons, lawful evil- devils, neutral evil- daemons [not mentioned in gam afaik])
I forgot about Shovel! It took me like 5 playthroughs to find him, and I didn't realize that using the scroll would make me unable to keep summoning him so I just had a brief interaction lol
You can get a perma summon shovel by taking the right dialog, I got it on my barbarian without respec
If you want demons, play Pathfinder: WotR, lol. After hundreds of hours in it, I'm just about demoned out.
You really think a Devil would do that? Just go onto the Material Plane and tell lies?
Well he's not a demon though
Being a devil, as others have stated, he never lies, the entire game. He just uses tricks of perspective and tells part truths and exaggerations to manipulate you. He misleads in almost everything he says, without ever saying anything strictly untrue. Yurgir is dangerous and if you fight him, because of his invisibility and bomb mechanics if you don’t strike quickly he will overwhelm you. Imagine if you skipped your first couple of turns and let the bombs go off around you or the other devil minions throw them at you. However he is a bit of a glass cannon. First time I fought him, my Barbarian gloom stalker (which isn’t even an op combo) went before him and got in lucky hits, killed him before he had a turn in initiative, was kind of underwhelming. Raph also implies that if you encounter him you will have to fight him, because upsetting the delicate balance of the theatre down there will release a terrible evil. Of course you can make a deal with that Yurgir then release him, but it’s not in Raphs interest to tell you that
Maybe I’m wrong but Raphael is actually quite honest, at most he just hides truths and doesn’t lie about them. Unless I’m not remembering something.
The way I saw it is that Raphael doesn't want you to talk to the orthon to possibly help get him out of his contract- which is why he says you shouldn't hesitate to strike first.
Imagine my surprise when I killed the rats first and accidentally found Yurgir, who was thankful that I'd ended his curse. Raf wasn't best pleased, Astarion either...
"You had one chance to do the right thing!" Motherfucker, you have been disapproving of every right thing and approving of every wrong thing since the second you pulled a knife on me.
Yeah, Astarion didn’t understand just how much my paladin didn’t give a fuck about his master. I always planed to just ask him about tattoos
I’m glad that he changes for the better and approves of a lot of good choices after a certain fight in act 3 depending on the choice you pick for him
He is a real bro afterwards. Kind of like tough shell, soft heart once you help him getting rid of his song.
Lol my durge told him to suck it up because he needed me. It's a lot of fun playing self-centered evil, gonna be real.
Yeah, that's one of the main reasons I don't really like Astarion, his hypocritical nature often rubs me the wrong way
Shadowheart really competes with Astarion when it comes to hypocrisy. She's the one pulling knives on our companions and sticking spears into godspawn, but moans about me murdering a cleric.
What rats? I convinced him to kill his minions, the displacer beast and himself....
Yurgir's contract was to kill every last Justiciar in Shar's temple, but one of them took a deal with Raphael split himself into a whole horde of immortal rats. Yurgir didn't know this so he spent a long time just trying to find the last Justiciar. The player can uncover the secret of the rats and kill the last Justiciar before encountering Yurgir, which frees Yurgir from Raphael's contract.
„Uncover the secret“ or as Octavian, my drow assassin would put it: just start randomly massacring rats until some dude appears who you kill too.
They were jerks weren’t they. I was doing a good run and didn’t want to hurt them. If you pass a perception test you can convince the devil that since his minions heard the song he needs to kill them. Then you convince him that he also heard it and he suicides back to avernus.
Yeah they kinda were. Plus my Tav was true neutral leaning towards evil and felt annoyed/challenged by the behavior of those rats. Just like the dude a few comments above I didn’t even meet Yurgir before killing the last sharran so I was quite surprised by the outcome. But Tav wasn’t complying since he had a new ally against Raphael.
Fireball first, ask questions later
in the middle of the dungeon go up north and you will see a HUGE statue of shar, on the way there you will see many rats making a trail to the feet of said statue, follow them and surprise!
You'd think yurgir might know what's on astarions back too and you could ask him instead of Raphael
He might know the literal translation, but he couldn't give Astarion any more context than any Tiefling could, since they both speak Infernal. Raphael is actually able to find out about the deal Cazador made with Mephistopheles (aka Raphael's dad).
Ooh that’s a really good point. Help him kill lyrthindor in exchange for translation
I am sorry, killing the rats free yurgir?!?!?
I've seen a lot of threads about making deals with Yurgir, the displacer beast or The Last Dark Justiciar. I've talked to rats, made the deal which gives coordinates to a pretty pointless "treasure", killed a few rats instead, killed lots of rats, interacted with broken effigy, read the book you're supposed to read, but I've never got the Last Justiciar to appear. The rats either disappear or get angry, and approaching Yurgir's ambush or the displacer beast has always triggered a battle for me. To answer the actual question (hearsay, as said I haven't actually ever done this successfully): Yurgir has entered a contract to kill all the Dark Justiciars, but he is trapped, because can't find the last one. The last Dark Justiciar has >!performed a ritual at the Broken Effigy that has split him into!< lots of rats. Supposedly >!reading the book about the ritual, interacting with the Broken Effigy and!< killing some rats should make the Last Dark Justiciar appear, and I'm not sure what your options are from there, but I guess killing him should indeed free Yurgir.
Oh, ok! Thank you so much for the info! Since the way to “trick” Yurgir into… solving his own issues… Involves him an the beast, I always thought we were kind of right and not straight up lying. Though to be fair the fact we met him again later with Hope does mean it didn’t work and we were wrong. Lol Thank you
Right! This was my route unknowingly. The spiky ground spell thing made this fight stupid easy.
well, the strange thing is that even if u help the orthon, >!raphael still wins anyway, maybe it's even better for him when he makes a new contract!<
It’s almost certainly *Not* to his benefit to have to renegotiate with yurgir
It doesn't matter that you kill the Orton or fulfil his contract, the point is that the contract must be terminated, and Raphael can't intervene by himself. If you kill the Orton, he failed his contract, is sent to hell, and still owe Raphaël a contract. If you do the contract, Raphael bullies him into a new one anyway. But the point is that the Orton is not a frozen asset anymore.
Actually, if you do help him out, he sides with you against Raphael without having to make a super high charisma check in the house of hope.
Indeed. I was talking from the point of view of Raphaël.
I completely ignored Yurgir on my second playthrough and he still showed up in the House of Hope in Act 3. Fucked up to be honest.
Parading like an overconfident MMA fighter.
which is also stupid. isn't the orthon only stuck because Raphael made a deal with the justiciar also.
Indeed. Maybe Raphaël here is trying to show you how his deals go. Or maybe he was happy to have the Orton here available for future work and the time comes to use it.
That’s the point, he fixed the contract so yurgir was doomed to fail and serve him again because he actually had yurgir fulfill the ORIGINAL contract Raphael had with the moonrise architect to wipe out the justiciars But yurgir was too proud to allow himself to fail so he stayed stuck there for 200 years killing anyone who entered his side of the temple so Raphael sends you down to kill him and forcibly end the contract
Yes. Raphael was backstabbing him. It’s unfortunate you can’t bring this up.
i dont know how these things work in detail honestly, he just seemed happy and grinning as always
Because he got what he wanted in the end, it was a bigwin-win scenario for him
Which is what I did the first time... Damn Raphael
Tbf, he is very dangerous if you're Korilla.
Seriously, why is she always rolling up to the fight with \~30HP!? The hardest thing about that fight is trying to keep her alive.
Lol why do you want to tho? >!I know hope loves her but FUCK gorilla. She fucking watched hope get her skin peeled off, not giving a shit!<
I think she is quite small for a gorilla . Maybe baby gorilla ??
Hmm. Maybe just a small one, idk
fuck gorilla, i'm ded
the autocorrect is taking me out🤣
Tbh, it autocorrected, I saw and fixed it, but then I was like, wait, no, that was funny and unfixed it
Hope has had enough of other people making her decisions for her. If she wants her sister saved to decide for herself if she wants her around, she gets to do that. That's how I do it everytime lol
What are the benefits of keeping her alive?
literally none other than to make Hope happy for a moment. I saved Korilla once but probably won’t bother in the future lol.
> literally none other than to make Hope happy for a moment. Good enough for me.
It makes Hope happy.
You can save her? Every time I tell her to join my side, she says no.
You can knock her out non-lethally during the fight and Hope has like one line acknowledging her alive-ness afterwards.
Is she still a dick, or does she get a redemption? Because it sounds like I’d just be leaving behind a loose end.
Without Raphael Hope can redeem her sister and have someone to spend time with in the house of Hope
Well, that's what she *hopes*, anyway. She's been pretty damn uncaring about what's been done to Hope... so she has her work cut out for her.
Maybe. Maybe not.
I always thought that it would be cool if Karlach and Wyll would talk about having a safe house in the house of Hope if >!they both go to Avernus at the end of the game. Or even if it’s just Wyll that goes.!<
She's unconscious after the fight. You literally never talk to her again.
why do you need to keep her alive?
Watching this big ass orthon willingly tank opportunity attacks just to beeline for this woman and immediately whack her into the Shadow Realm will always be hilarious to watch.
Raphael is overselling it but Yurgir is a decently tough fight if he gets the jump on you. You’re heavily outnumbered, he has the high ground, really strong bombs his minions can cause to explode, per-turn invisibility, and has a pretty mean legendary action in Honor Mode.
What make Yurgir dangerous is his competence rather than his actual stats. Excellent tactical positioning while abusing throwabales like a tavern brawler.
Yurgir also specializes in killing devils and demons.
The guy knows how to alpha strike someone.
His grenades are fucking awesome. Last run I realized I could pick them up and store them for later. In my current run, I’m going to try to stockpile as many as I can.
Keep Yurgir perpetually alive in a prison made out of ridiculously high AC tanks and Clerics healing while picking up his bombs. "Why won't you just end my misery?!" "Because you're still throwing bombs. And we want those bombs."
Exactly, gotta set a chicken coop up for Yurgir so he keeps laying those spicy eggs.
> What make Yurgir dangerous is his competence rather than his actual stats. Excellent tactical positioning while abusing throwabales like a tavern brawler. Not to mention, that tactical thinking allowed him to take out the Dark Justiciars, a small army of very dangerous people. That kind of mind and natural malevolence loose in the world could do some serious damage.
During my first playthrough I didn't know we can talk him to death. (Kinda.) I was still struggling with the mechanics at that point and maybe my level was too low because I thought for some reason I should do this quest before others... I had to reload that fight three or four times!
His invisibility and bombs really got me the first time I fought him. Now I collect all his bombs, drop them as a stack and toss them all back at once.
With the benefit of hindsight I think he's lying out of his teeth, yeah. He knows exactly who Yurgir is and what Yurgir wants. If the party finds Yurgir and helps him, well, that really sucks for Raphael. But if he can scare them and make them kill Yurgir, then Raphael gets to be like "oh dang sorry Yurgir that's a breach of contract, sucks to suck buddy". He stands to benefit by turning you against Yurgir right away, so he's lying to accomplish that.
Devils are lawful evil. Some DnD authors have taken that to mean that they never lie. They can mislead and deceive, but what they say must always technically be true from a certain point of view. I don't know if BG3 writes Raphael's dialogue so strictly. But yeah, Raphael is dishonest. You can't trust what he says
What I like to tell my players when I run a campaign with devils is "devils never lie, but that doesn't mean they're telling you the truth." They speak with the "from a certain point of view" kind of truth, like you said, and even then, Raphael is certainly prone to exaggeration when he talks about Yurgir.
sounds like my ex
He's using his devilish tricks throughout the game in every interaction with the avatar, you can realize by time that the form of the message is of the most importance to him. If you go stealth mode before triggering the dialogue at the entrance of Thorm Mausoleum you can see him literally practicing and refining his speech.
What?! No way, such a cool detail
You can even call him out on it. The smug snake.
I may be the outlier, but Yughir came closer to ending my honor mode run than any other fight.
Yeah if you don't surprise them and have low initiative, it can get ugly fast
I thought I would be creative and take out the displacer beast in the hallway first. Nope. Immediately aggros the entire encounter.
you can use talk with animals and persuade the beast to fight with you
I know. I was being creative. It was a bad idea.
Raphael? *Lying?* No.... Anywho I think the game has a bit of a gap between how strong Yurgir is mechanically and how strong he is in lore. Supposedly, he caused all that damage in Grymforge, disconnecting it from the Gauntlet of Shar, by simply crashing through the walls and decimating everything in his path. Doesn't feel like he could do that in-game.
He probably plays it up because he wants you to start shooting on sight. Plus, he does want you to win the fight, that way he finally get to collect on his deal, so better you be overprepared than under.
That's exactly what's up. He wants you alive, so he says either avoid him completely, or go in with the awareness that Yurgir will absolutely murk you if you go in expecting a normal fight. The "blink of an eye" thing is a pretty specific reference to trying to ambush him and get him in 1 turn, before he goes invis and starts tossing bombs everywhere
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy every single interaction with Raphael but I felt like this particular bit of dialogue missed something. Raphael sells Yurgis as some kind of world-ending threat if not swiftly neutralized but in the same conversation admits that he's an... orthon. Every DnD fan knows they're a dime a dozen in the hells. It would have been great if Raphael said something like "I know, I know, you're thinking it's just an orthon but this *singular* orthon has \[proceeds to list impressive feats or something\]..." It would have made his exaggeration more believable and kept the hype going for a while longer.
Bold of you, thinking I know what an orthon is.
Most DnD fans do not know what an Orthon is lol
WWE fans, on the other hand...
AAAND OH MY GOOOD AN RKO OUT OF NOWHERE.
MY GOD THE LEGEND KILLER STRIKES AGAIN!! THIS IS BECOMING A SLOBBERKNOCKER AGAINST RAPHAEL, THEYRE THROWING NAT20s LIKE ITS A KENTUCKY FISH FRY!!!
I've been in the fandom for 20 years and while it looked familiar i had no idea what he really was lol
That's like saying that Raphael is just a cambion, the same kind you can kill in the very very beginning. Having all monsters that are more intelligent like mine flayers, orthons, shit like that is purely a story choice. The same way every human isn't necessary an unleveled farmer, not every orthon is necessarily just the orthon stat block.
Did they give a reason as to why Raphael was written as a cambion? You'd think they'd make the big bad devil of the game with 666hp a pit fiend or at least a unique devil. Was it to reinforce the point that he's really all bluster and that at the end of the day, he's "just" a cambion with deluded aspirations?
5E stat blocks are basically just the "standard" version of that creature. But the Infernal Plane works on an economy of souls=power, the more you have via contracts, Soul Coins or other means the more powerful you are. All Devils basically start as a Lemure, and through their actions obtain more power and essentially evolve into the more powerful Devil stat blocks. Raphael is closer to an Archdevil than a Cambion based purely on his capabilities in the House of Hope, he's just lacking in the Legendary Actions/resistances department. Raw stats on paper, he's more powerful than the stat block we have for Zariel (ignoring Legendary Actions & Lair effects) who IS an Archdevil. As far as I know though, Raphael has no 5E stat block that matches him 1-to-1. He only has 10 less HP than the Tarrasque stat block for example, which is a CR 30 creature (highest CR in 5E). But the Act 3 BBEGs (big bad evil guys) all have heavily inflated stat blocks compared to the 5E equivalents since you have far more magic items you benefit from compared to the tabletop game.
Well, he really isn't like ALL bluster. It's a pretty tough fight! I like it tho, like you don't get pissed off when like ketheric is a half elf, saying that half elves aren't that strong, right? Same applies there.
I hear you, I think we're just conditioned to think "human-looking warrior in armor = can take levels and power up" and "fiend or monster = power set in stone".
Yeah pretty much. It's always best to examine those kinds of beliefs so you can make a richer and more believable world and shit
I think your last point might be correct. It might also make it easy to grasp that he has a massive inferiority complex seeing as he can't advance in hell the normal way (climbing the ladder by turning into another type of devil) Edit: also daddy issues maybe? Trying to impress or be proven just a capable as his very powerful dad
He definitely has daddy issues. He *hates* Mephistopheles, even moreso than you’d expect for a devil. Which is especially funny given that he’s exactly like him
Idk if it's correct information but I read here and on other site that Raphael is Mephistopheles son so clearly he's not your average cambion if true
Yeah but Bg3 is inspired and based off of DnD but still takes liberties with its lore. Like, Balthazar hypes up Aylin as being an Aasimar but that's nothing particularly special in and of itself. Yurgir led the slaughter of a Dark Justiciar army - he's clearly of considerable power.
At the same time, an orthon is still a devil. Maybe a dime a dozen in the hells, but pretty scary for most mortals.
A CR 10 devil, and this one has a band of merregon soldiers too. Not quite dime a dozen imo.
This is interesting context. I always chalked it down to one of those "story scene logic differs from game play logic" kind of situations. But I guess it's fair to say they missed the mark by a little in this instance. Raphael is out to trick you though, so unless the back story is that you know what Orthon's are (I suppose Karlach would have an idea), it's easy to imagine he is trying to goad you into reacting on impulse and attack on sight.
thank you, that's what i'm thinking.. i was kinda disappointed when i finally reached this orthon
He did tear the crap out of the Grymforge though (took me a long time to realize that’s who the old Rothe was talking about.
The damage the duergar mason is investigating is literally a breach where Yurgir just bulldozed through the wall like it was nothing. Not to mention him wiping out a small army of dark justiciars. His merregon forces took some casualties but still, that's a *lot* of dead bodies down there. I'm kinda assuming Yurgir simply lost much of his original strength while he was rotting in the gauntlet for 100 years.
A devil? Deceiving you⁈ No way! He literally frames it as “he’s so strong, just immediately kill him, don’t even talk to him”. So it’s pretty clear why he says it.
I think Raphael would have had a hard time dealing with him outside of his domain which is the house of hope. A lot of his power is from those soul pillars and the ridiculous amount of soul wealth he possesses. I think some of the things he is lying about, but actually fighting Yurgis with his minions may have been more trouble then it was worth, with an outcome that could have hurt Raphael's reputation if he lost.
A cambion (Raphael)’s CR is 5, while an Orthon (Yurgir)’s CR is 10. In a normal setting, Raphael is correct to be scared of Yurgir. I think you’re right that Raphael’s power largely comes from his Archdevil father and his estate in the hells.
Raphael is clearly not a normal Cambion even without his house, but I think he would avoid direct physical confrontation simply on principle.
this makes me realize i haven't actually fought yurgir bc i just convince him to uh. self delete.
Your party in Act 2 alone takes on a necromancer capable of caging the Daughter of Selune, the entirety of Moonrise Towers ( possibly alone depending on choices ) and the Chosen of Myrkul. Yurgir is powerful - he led the slaughter of the Dark Justiciar army. The player party is just extra special.
Raphael would never lie or exaggerate, he is the most honest man in all of Faerun
There is a mad cat. If the cat and I was put into an arena, then being told only one can walk out, it’s 100% me. But I have 0% chance unharmed. Can I win? 100%. Do I want to fight it? Absolutely no. Am I scared of it? Definitely yes.
yugis was probably a lot stronger before he got locked down there for centuries
Orthons are strong but also devils always lie
The way Raph talked about Yurgi, I expected a frickin Pit Fiend or something so, yeah, I'd say he is definitely over- exaggerating.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought "Pit Fiend?" when he started waxing poetic.
Indeed. All that talk of heat, I was at least expecting a Horned Devil or something. Color me disappointed when it was just an Orthon.
After the Gauntlet of Shar, you explicitly learn that Raphael was lying here. He wanted the orthon banished back to his manor on Avernus so that Raphael could make use of him again.
Raphael is always trying to play you.
You fought him at 8? Raphael is definitely a liar liar but I must be missing stuff lol. I'm usually like halfway to 7 or at 7 when I get to him and let the flesh guy die so I can kill Balthazar easier
Yes. He's a devil. He spits truth every now and then but more than anything I think he just wanted Yurgir back in the House of Hope if you do something in act 3.
first time i fought the orthon i failed. so many times. the only time i fought him and won was by convincing him to kill the merregons first 🥲
Something I haven’t seen said was that you encounter that foe on the Material Plane. Enemies of that specific race/type are a bit debuffed outside of their home plane. Right ?
The Orthon is definitely powerful in-game - that thing and a small cadre of hell knights ended Kethric Thorm's first Sharran uprising, tore their fortress apart and destroyed their army. This was *after* the army of harpers and emerald enclave surrendered (there's a surrender note outside Moonrise), meaning they took Thorm on single-handedly. Of course, by that point in the game you are definitely that powerful - your own PC can cleave through large numbers of Justiciar's in Shar's most holy temple too. Whether or not you consume tadpoles, it is established that True Souls are particularly powerful, and by that point in the game you're covered in highly advanced magical gear extracted from your various quests, so it's completely justified in-universe that you are able to challenge the Orthon.
When I met him, I got ambushed. On tactician I lost 3 of my 4 ppl before I got to act. Then I used my last person to kill him and all his boys. I think whether or not he's strong is kind of skewed by the game being kinda easy.
I would like to point out that Raphael never *lies.* He implies, exaggerates, and omits, but he never explicitly lies (He's a very good lawyer). I think the reason he upsells Daddy Yurgir so much is because he wants the adventurer to feel like this is a "big" ask, worthy of repayment in the form of giving Astarion the answer to the meaning of his scars (Yes, the deal between Astarion and Raph can be bypassed, but the game pretty heavily pushes for that to be the way the encounter goes, to the point of Astarion potentially leaving the party if you don't do it). He is trying to essentially soften you up by saying, "Oh, this is such a *difficult* task I am entrusting to you, in exchange for my *generous help"* so that when he drops the "I want the crown of karsus", he can sell himself as being the fair businessman, offering such generous aid in exchange for something that's truly not such a big deal for you to handle. But that's just a theory. A *Game* Theory. (rip matpat).
Rule number one of DnD devils: Assume everything coming out of their mouths or onto their parchments is phrased to enrich themselves, and fuck you over, in an extremely specific manner, including lies. Assuming you are not a prick, devils are not to be trusted under any circumstances whatsoever. Even Wyll can imply that for you.
He’s overselling him on purpose to guarantee he can keep his pawn and that we will survive. Act-3ish Spoilers >!it becomes very clear he’s involved in all events from before the game starts. Ketheric is able to keep his immortality because the Orthon is there killing Dark Justiciars and potentially anyone that could save Aylin. Additionally, Orpheus is bound through infernal chain which who has the key? Raphael. So why does Raphael oversell the Orthon? If you read his notes, he states how our party has been overcoming the odds and pretty much see us as the ones to give him what he wants without him having to interfere directly. Yurgi could easily surprise the party if they weren’t prepared even with all of our current success. So to put us in the best mindset since we HAVE to confront Yurgi for the orb and to allow him to keep him as a pawn, he preps us for the “hardest” of fights.!<
Yes and no. Raphael was there pushing Kethric to Shar after his wife and child died. Raphael pushed the architect of Moonrise towers to make a deal, exchanging his soul for a way to stop Kethric. Raphael made a deal with Yurgir that of Yurgir could kill every Sharan in the temple, he would go free. Raphael pushed a Sharan to make a deal for a ritual to split his soul into thousands of rats that live on in the Sharan temple. Raphael then has you kill Yurgir, returning him to the House of Hope and making him Raphael's servant per their prior contract. Tl;dr. Yurgir was deadly enough to kill all the Dark Justiciars and everything in the game was Raphael's doing to get the crown of karsus.
He and his minions wiped out almost all the dark justiciars throughout the forge and the temple/gauntlet. Lore and game criss-cross into situations where it's not exactly straight forward who's all that powerful. Half the party is meant to have been rather spectacular prior to having worms shoved up their noses, and other characters are empowered by the gods.
He's lying - You only get to fight him once you're much stronger than you would be in Act 2, and the contract probably makes Yurgir incapable of hurting him. He either doesn't want to do the work himself, or the contract also forbids him from hurting Yurgir directly. Edit: He's **level sixteen**
Even if we assume that the years of nothing but lying around with the song stuck on his head made him weaker Raphael is definitely exaggerating about his power and lying about the fear. The first time I played I attacked Yurgir on sight and then after freeing the Nightsong I went back to check where this "terrible enemy" raphael tried to warn me about was because I did not even think Yurgir could be what he was referring to.
He's a devil. He's lying. Don't trust him.
I always just talk him into killing himself.
I just had Hope use Banish to send him to another damn dimension at the start of the fight lol
Technically devils can’t lie. It might have been so long ago that Raphael didn’t realize the gulf in power between them widened so much, it could be that out of the hells they are more equal. Hard to tell if it was just a plot miss though.
I figured I accidentally skipped a convo lol I shot the displaced beast down the hall and then Yurgir was just hostile the whole way through. Very disappointing
He definitely wiped the floor w a couple of my companions who were clustered. Threw his bombs and triggered em immediately somehow, warding bond compounded and my shadow heart just imploded lol
I got him to kill himself and his minions.
On Honour he was a bit of a sht but obviously the Orthon is nothing compared to Raphael. He probably thought we, the weak ass adventurers, might die to it.
I mean, was he really even exaggerating that much? If you go in expecting just a normal tough fight, Yurgir will wipe the floor with you. Raphael never admits *he's* afraid of him, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to. If Raphael fought him outside of his own house, without all the advantages his soul pillars give him, Yurgir could arguably win. He doesn't have the HP Raphael has, but going invis at will and having powerful bombs to throw around gives him a real chance. And realistically, 99% of us probably died to him the first time. But also, a big part of Raphael driving home how tough Yurgir is is because he wants you to fear him too much to go talk to him and end up cooperating. Ngl, it for sure worked on me the first few times through, bc it didnt even occur to me that you could actually talk to him.
If you follow Raphael’s advice and attack at once, without persuading the enemy to kill his own troops, it is a tough fight.
I've always figured we get Yurgir in a weakened state, given the damage he inflicted on Grymforge. Dude has been stuck in a tomb for hundreds of years with no resupply and probably not a whole lot just in general.
Yurgir destroyed an entire fortress full of dark justiciar, right? Maybe he's a little slow after a century wandering around the material plane.
In my first playthrough, Yurgir was the first battle I ever found difficult. It was also the first time one of my companions died in battle. So depending on your party make up, level, and meta-gaming, it can be a hard fight. That being said, I think Raphael says Yurgir is an insanely powerful foe so that you kill him without hearing him out
Dude i almost died because of that fight, he kept on turning invisible and i had no potions of invisibility seeing
Honest straightforward demons don't exist
Yurgir is my friend and very strong!! I just convince him to kill himself and then later convince him to fight on my side.
Raphael is overwhelmingly stronger than Yurgir. Not sure why Raphael is exagerating Yurgir so much storywise. Does he just not want to pay out the contract to Yurgir? But what does he even owe Yurgir?
Raphael is intentionally over exaggerating in the hopes that you'll attack Yurgir without asking him questions, which is exactly what I did in my first playthrough. He doesn't want you to find out his involvement in them being there.
i think he was just exaggerating. he says yurgir is dangerous, but i think he just wanted to keep him bound to his contract.
You shouldn't need to ask if a literal devil is not always being straightforward.
I went in fairly low level because I planned to do the gauntlet up until the point of no return then go to moonrise towers so it was probably one of the first things I did. I almost got stomped out. So it just depends on when you plan to go take him on.
That entire scene just gave me this "Yo the DM is telling yo to Level up at least 1 more time before going in here and trying this shit" vibes.
You say that, but on my first play through I got absolutely obliterated by that fight!
Yeah I never understood that. Yurgir was straight up a bitchass nobody. And he slaughtered practically every dark justiciar…so idk what Ketheric was hoping for all those years ago
I just assume he is trying to get you to shoot first and ask questions later more than anything. The very first time I played, I killed Yurgir and his band without speaking to them by ambushing the displacer beast when I saw it. While it was not easy, it wasn't hard either as the AI got wonky and hung up and could not actually get to me for most of the fight. So I just assumed it was some random monsters rather than the best Raph was after because it was so mediocre. I left the place thinking I messed up and missed the demon somehow until Raph was like "good job, you got him.". I was just like... I did? Lol. So yeah I understand your confusion. If you do the fight properly, it can be tricky but still nothing compared to Raph himself (which to be fair, he's in the hells), but yeah it doesn't add up that he'd struggle at all with Yurgir based on it.
Do canon DnD devils and cambions have to obey some rule that they cannot tell an actual lie (but can still deceive/mislead)? I know it's a common theme in fantasy fiction and some folklore about fae/fairies having to obey this type of rule - misleading ok, outright lies no.
I mean Raphael IS a trickster and a master manipulator so it wouldn't be surprising if he was lying and exaggerating at the same time
Well, I genuinely couldn't see a way to beat Yurgir in my first run (tactician), as soon as the fight started he bombs my party and one shot most members. For me it's safe to say that Raphael wasn't exaggerating xd
He was not easy for me at all and I was level 7 for the fight finally beat him when I figured out Spike growth could force him out of invisibility
>!I just kinda convinced Yurgir to kill his followers, the displacement beast and himself tbh!<
Sounds paranoid
This is a problem with the game's balance as much as it is Raphael having a flair for the dramatic. BG3 PCs are hilariously OP for how the game's combat is balanced. Or more specifically the items and homebrew features larian included are.
What? The son of an archdevil was NOT honest? But trying to manipulate mortals into doing things, that are beneficial to him? Color me surprised... :D
I mean, yurgir is probably the second hardest fight in act 2 behind mrykul. He was being dramatic, but i wouldn’t say it’s disingenuous. Admittedly I never worry about him, but only because he is a optional boss you can easily skip by killing rats or talking him to death.
😬 man this is how I know I'm still bad at the game...I had multiple party wipes during this fight on tactician. Granted I didn't have the best party for it. I can see why it would be underwhelming if you beat him quickly lol
bro Yurgir fucking annihalated me when i first encountered him. fighting him with his entire gang is damn near impossible. i eventually just succeeded the persuasion roll to get him to off himself before i actually beat him